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Brian Palmer
03-20-2015, 07:12 PM
Anybody else see this? Interesting concept. Sailors are 16 to 20 years old.

(They will not be stopping in the US in 2015.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyVPBob9qvI

Hunky Dory
03-20-2015, 07:28 PM
At what point do we stop calling them boats? I appreciate the skills to sail these things but at the same time as we get our younger sailors more into this type of sailing ,seamanship is getting lost quickly. I was talking with my Bevin's skiff class about sailing as we are building the sailing version this time. I asked one girl that is 12 and a sailor of 420's if she was ever taught about tides and their effect on the boats and she said it had never been mentioned in any of her lessons at the yacht club.

sailnstink
03-20-2015, 08:24 PM
They are boats. Awesome boats. Different boats require different knowledge and no one, not even the grizzled, lucky to go 4 knots salty dudes know it all. I understand we choose wooden boats partly so we can opt our egos out of the speed and size/luxury boating race and remain smug, but that doesn't stop the beautiful people from sailing ever faster.:cool:

Woxbox
03-20-2015, 08:53 PM
Those catamarans are most definitely boats, but I do agree that at some point, you may be driven fast over the water by the wind, but it's not a boat. Who's to say where the line is to be drawn? I'm not sure Vestas Sailrocket is a boat -- dynamically, it's much closer to a sailplane that drops a hook in the water to give a bit more control.

But I like the Red Bull concept a lot. These top young sailors get to compete in boats they couldn't possibly afford. It's a traveling show in many ways, yes, but how else would these kids get a taste of performance craft like that?

As to the rest, if you're teaching round the buoys racing technique not much seamanship is to be expected in the course -- any more than driving lessons at the local race track will cover reading maps or right of way at a 4-way stop.

Richard of Woods Designs
03-20-2015, 10:17 PM
Agreed, you can only be taught so much at one time. How many Great Lakes sailors cruising in old gaffers need to know about tides?

I was lucky to get up close to the latest AC45 foilers a couple of weeks ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPn5geNFV8Q&list=UUhKTQtbKN5BaXFTg2BjcbqA

The real debate is "is a foiling kiteboarder sailing"?

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com (http://www.sailingcatamarans.com)

windwalker3014
03-20-2015, 10:21 PM
These are definitely boats. And the definition of seamanship, if one googles the term, is "the skill, techniques, or practice of handling a ship or boat at sea." (That's the top link that pops up anyway). Sailboats evolve just like other things: ground transportation, aviation, space travel,, etc. The knowledge required to handle a square rigger was very different than that required for Endeavour (of the J boat era) and that is very different from handling a boat like a Caledonia yawl. Seamanship encompasses a wide spectrum of skills and knowledge, the emphasis of which may be very different depending on the boat and its purpose. i am an avid sailor of everything from dinghies to catamarans to keelboats. They're all good to me and I'm in the middle of my first build. Foiling cats are the next step in the evolution of one type of racing boat. Regarding the spectrum of seamanship, these sailors' need for a knowledge of tides, etc during their 20 minute foray around a race course pales in comparison to their need for knowledge on rig tuning, sail shape, and go-fast technique. Contrast to the Caledonia yawl on a cruise through the PacNW by a retired wanderer....the knowledge of tides is probably much more relevant than every go fast technique for shaping the sail or getting that foil section shaped juuuuuust right on the centerboard. This is an interesting conversation for sure but I do believe it could very easily turn into an us-vs-them forum. Sailors are men and women with a penchant for the water and the wind, regardless of the purpose. The foiling cat sailor today may very well be the one to build the next Chapelle crabbing skiff tomorrow when his or her priorities or interests change. And those are sweet boats.... :-)

Clarkey
03-21-2015, 04:55 AM
Of course they are boats. The level of seamanship appropriate to most of the boats discussed on this forum would probably be found somewhat wanting if applied to these new developments. The art of sailing on the sea continues to evolve.

slug
03-21-2015, 05:05 AM
Good grief..seamanship ?

those boats have nothing to do with seamanship. They sail inshore on a supervised shedule and are accompanied by a crash boat so that seamanship can be disregarded.

those boats are advertising platforms designed to appeal to the , gee wizz , youtube generation.

wizbang 13
03-21-2015, 05:10 AM
boats sure....... race boats. pfffft.

Zane Lewis
03-21-2015, 05:42 AM
Taking that thinking you can right off all small boat sailing as they have crash boats etc and sail around an insure course.
Have to disagree. All the best sailers start in small boats learning to sail from the feel of the boat.
I only race at club level now intermittently but those skills I learnt make me a much better sailer of heavy cruising boats.

What about the guy's in the Volvo Ocean race? Do they have seamanship skills.

Zane

Woxbox
03-21-2015, 08:43 AM
Not when they hit a 20 mile long reef...

windwalker3014
03-21-2015, 08:59 AM
Good grief..seamanship ?

those boats have nothing to do with seamanship. They sail inshore on a supervised shedule and are accompanied by a crash boat so that seamanship can be disregarded.

those boats are advertising platforms designed to appeal to the , gee wizz , youtube generation.

And the schism begins.

peb
03-22-2015, 11:25 AM
Super cool. You'd have to be a pretty good sailor to handle one, even in relatively calm conditions. We all go out in our heavy wooden boats and think we are the greatest sailors ever. Most of us would be too scared to go out on one of those in 10-15 knots of wind.

Garret
03-22-2015, 12:52 PM
Not boats? Really? So - sitting at the dock they look/act differently from a regular catamaran? Sailing @ 6-8 knots out the harbor they aren't boats?

Now if people were to say they were boats plus, I might agree, bit they are definitely boats - and boats that require a great deal of skill to handle. I'd love to try one out!

Clarkey
03-22-2015, 01:14 PM
Super cool. You'd have to be a pretty good sailor to handle one, even in relatively calm conditions. We all go out in our heavy wooden boats and think we are the greatest sailors ever. Most of us would be too scared to go out on one of those in 10-15 knots of wind.

Quite. The other aspects of seamanship are easy enough to pick up later as necessary with proper tuition and build up of experience. At least they will be able to actually sail the boat properly, which is more than can be said for many grizzled seadogs I see in cruising boats.

wizbang 13
03-22-2015, 06:41 PM
Grizzled sea dog !!!!!! I resemble that remark!!!

peb
03-23-2015, 08:09 AM
I have a really stupid question: how do these boats keep from making quite a bit of leeway when they are up out of the water? There does not seem to be that much of a fin in the water providing lift. Now, granted, the plane that is in the water is going fast, so that helps, but is that all there is to it?

Michael D. Storey
03-23-2015, 08:56 AM
Good grief..seamanship ?

those boats have nothing to do with seamanship. They sail inshore on a supervised shedule and are accompanied by a crash boat so that seamanship can be disregarded.

those boats are advertising platforms designed to appeal to the , gee wizz , youtube generation.

This is an appropriate form of sailing. I think that everyone here has sailed using their skills as a seaman and just gone out and screwed around, maybe got drunk, even, on other ocassions. Just because there is a crash boat on hand, does not mean anything. I have seen film of J's racing for the America's Cup, with a crasher nearby. One of them was capable to sail across the Atlantic. You can get both at once.
I doubt that any of us are equipped to define sailing for another.

SchoonerRat
03-23-2015, 09:15 AM
I have a really stupid question: how do these boats keep from making quite a bit of leeway when they are up out of the water? There does not seem to be that much of a fin in the water providing lift. Now, granted, the plane that is in the water is going fast, so that helps, but is that all there is to it?

It's not that stupid a question. I don't have the presence of mind to look up the equation for lift produced by a foil right now, but in that equation, speed is squared. Double the speed produces 4 times the lift. Picture those foils acting like they're as big as 30 Opti centerboards.

BBSebens
03-24-2015, 12:57 AM
Racing is part of advancing the art, in any form of transportation. Race boats develop technology and techniques that can benefit the average sailor. It may take years for it to be affordable, but it occurs nevertheless.

johnno
03-24-2015, 01:18 AM
It's a bit like the old multihulls - monohulls debates. There's a vast world of boats and indeed sailing boats. Some sailors love speed, others technique and tactics, others plain old cruising or gunkholing.

The more sailing gets dragged into the world of competitive sport, sponsors, and so on, the more showy it has to get, along with instant quick results. The punters like spills and have short attention spans.

Personally I've found the thrill of watching foiling cats go up and down a simple course, always on a reach or close to it, disappeared after the first few races. Watching the Volvo 65s leaving Auckland entertained me much more. But that's me.


edit: and none of it as intriguing as the development of Lemonhands' flipping backrest. ;)

slug
03-24-2015, 03:34 AM
That gee wizz cooperate sailing will degrade Olympic sailing. Young talented sailors are supposed to be in the olympic classes , not sailing advertising billboards around.

Brian Palmer
03-24-2015, 06:16 AM
I have a really stupid question: how do these boats keep from making quite a bit of leeway when they are up out of the water? There does not seem to be that much of a fin in the water providing lift. Now, granted, the plane that is in the water is going fast, so that helps, but is that all there is to it?

This is a good question, and the answer is that it is a compromise. I remember watching the America's Cup and the commentators were noting that at first the boats were sailed so that they would not foil going upwind so they would not lose any ground to leeway. After a while, the realized that it was worth the trade-off to have more speed even with some leeway going up wind.

sailnstink
03-24-2015, 07:49 AM
That gee wizz cooperate sailing will degrade Olympic sailing. Young talented sailors are supposed to be in the olympic classes , not sailing advertising billboards around.
Foiling cats need to be an Olympic class. Or not. Red Bull probably runs a cleaner competition then the Olympics. The kids can decide: Foil, or toil in Olympic tubs.

Ben Fuller
03-24-2015, 08:21 AM
Except for the Laser, most Olympic classes would not exist without the Olympics. There is no grass roots support for them. When was the last time you saw 470s being run around the buoys, or 49ers? Finns have hung on in the Olympics because there is a small persistent and excellent class structure. Tempests died after one I think Olympics. Stars are no longer Olympic boats but have a great following. Solings selected for the Olympics instead of the Etchells died when the they were dropped but there are still Etchells fleets.

peb
03-24-2015, 10:00 AM
This is a good question, and the answer is that it is a compromise. I remember watching the America's Cup and the commentators were noting that at first the boats were sailed so that they would not foil going upwind so they would not lose any ground to leeway. After a while, the realized that it was worth the trade-off to have more speed even with some leeway going up wind.
Brian and SchoonerRat, thanks for the replies. I had not known it was an issue with the AC cats.

I find these boats very fascinating. How much does the hull weight play into the equation? I suspect a whole lot. To make a foil work, do you have to have a carbon hull? So it would be hard to design a more modestly priced cat with lifting foils?

Woxbox
03-24-2015, 12:22 PM
Weight is everything when you want to lift the entire boat and crew out of the water. Watch the foiling Moth sailors get their boats into the water. They pick them up and carry them like they were small kayaks.

But even heavier boats can foil -- but they need bigger foils and/or more wind and won't go so fast in the end. A good compromise is to use lifting foils to reduce the amount of hull in the water but not lift it out entirely. This approach is used effectively on trimarans, which lend themselves to this approach.

The biggest obstacle I see to home-built foilers is that the engineering level gets very high and very exact if good results are wanted. There's a narrow band you have to hit between a boat that breaks and one that's just too heavy. Carbon fiber is used for the foils because it's difficult to get the thin but very strong and flexible shapes needed otherwise. The hull doesn't need to be carbon, but it certainly helps to keep the weight down. Way back in the 80s a guy out in Califorinia built a foiling trimaran out of plywood and sailed it all around the Pacific. He was way ahead of his time. Foils are showing up on all sorts of boats now, and the price will be dropping to be sure. I expect that kits for the home builders are just around the corner.

Richard of Woods Designs
03-24-2015, 12:46 PM
I have a really stupid question: how do these boats keep from making quite a bit of leeway when they are up out of the water? There does not seem to be that much of a fin in the water providing lift. Now, granted, the plane that is in the water is going fast, so that helps, but is that all there is to it?

Agreed not a stupid question. If you look carefully art the videos, or see them up close for real, as I have done, you'll see that as they lift off they do indeed go sideways. Then they accelerate and leeway drops, as lift is proportional to speed squared. So, at 30 knots to windward they generate 36 times more lift for the same foil as you do going at 5 knots. So the foils can be quite small. In fact, a Hobie cat has more rudder in the water than the (old) 72fters did when going at 44knots.

Sounds scary but think how much tyre is touching the ground when a motor bike corners at 150mph - less than the sole of your foot.

If you also study the videos you'll see that tacking usually involves a big roll, much as you use on a dinghy. So these modern foils don't have great practical use on a cruising boat. And when not foiling they just slow you down.

The Olympics killed grass roots Laser sailing. Check the open meeting and championship attendence pre 1996 and after, entries have dropped by 1/3rd yet increased by 3 x in the Radial fleet

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com (http://www.sailingcatamarans.com)

Michael D. Storey
03-25-2015, 07:38 AM
That gee wizz cooperate sailing will degrade Olympic sailing. Young talented sailors are supposed to be in the olympic classes , not sailing advertising billboards around.

Young sailors are supposed to be sailing whatever they want to sail

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-25-2015, 09:23 AM
.....So these modern foils don't have great practical use on a cruising boat. And when not foiling they just slow you down.

Might be worth reading the story of David Keiper best known and honoured for having pioneered and developed the world's first hydrofoil sailing yacht, a 32-footer named WILLIWAW in which he cruised around the Pacific in the late1960s, early 1970s, sailing as far south as New Zealand. He loved the sea and designing smoother, faster sailing vessels.
http://www.foils.org/dak.htm

Clarkey
03-25-2015, 12:58 PM
Might be worth reading the story of David Keiper best known and honoured for having pioneered and developed the world's first hydrofoil sailing yacht, a 32-footer named WILLIWAW in which he cruised around the Pacific in the late1960s, early 1970s, sailing as far south as New Zealand. He loved the sea and designing smoother, faster sailing vessels.
http://www.foils.org/dak.htm

Well worth getting his book ('Hydrofoil Voyager') - less than 10 on Amazon UK at the moment. It was a very interesting boat, not developed for ultimate speed but for good averages and seakeeping. With a modern rig and using modern materials it would be considerably improved. Tom Speer did just such a design exercise with his 'Basiliscus' project:

http://www.basiliscus.com/

Richard of Woods Designs
03-25-2015, 08:12 PM
Yes I have read that book and seen the videos. I've also seen the Monitor hydrofoiler from the 1950's

Richard Woods

Ben Fuller
03-25-2015, 09:47 PM
And what I think may have been the first book on foiling under sail was The 40 Knot Sailboat, I think. One of them is down at the Mariner's Museum in Newport News.

Richard of Woods Designs
03-25-2015, 10:24 PM
Thats the Monitor, I saw it there about 10 years ago. Great museum BTW, best in the USA if you are a sailor

RW