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ron ll
03-19-2015, 10:29 AM
Bosch is coming out with a new saw stop type of table saw that doesn't destroy the mechanism in the process and can be reset in 60 seconds.
http://gizmodo.com/flesh-detecting-table-saw-instantly-drops-the-blade-wit-1692223340

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--pj_GwbML--/jbz8v5h4bwiwrctb0t6q.gif

David G
03-19-2015, 10:54 AM
I saw that. At first glance, it certainly does seem like an improvement. Need to compare actual response times to make sure thay ARE comparable.

And the SawStop system doesn't ALWAYS destroy the blade - but, at the very least, it requires re-sharpening, and perhaps truing. I like the fact that the Bosch version is less destructive. I REALLY like the way the cartridge is double... and can be flipped so as to put the saw back into service in a minute or two. Way less hassle and downtime!! Now... does this mean Bosch is gonna come out with a cabinet saw? SawStop saws are very nice. Carefully engineered. Nicely constructed. Quiet. Smooth. Right up there with Delta, Powermatic, Jet, etc.... and better in some ways. Or maybe Bosch is planning on doing the licensing agreement with other manufacturers that SawStop didn't manage to set up.

ron ll
03-19-2015, 11:06 AM
I would imagine that the Bosch saw fills a gap that SawStop didn't address. This is more of a job site saw where downtime may be more critical. It might also be more for pickup truck contractors who may worker faster and less carefully? :)

David G
03-19-2015, 11:09 AM
Yes, true. But the technology, if it lives up to the hype, is more important than that.

Canoez
03-19-2015, 11:16 AM
Actually I think SawStop has a job-site saw now for about $1300 - $200 less than the Bosch, so the Bosch is an also-ran in the jobsite saw department.

That said, I do like the way that the Bosch's mechanism operates.

ron ll
03-19-2015, 11:34 AM
But the big advantage to Bosch is the turnaround time after it is triggered. On a job site that could be critical.

ron ll
03-19-2015, 11:41 AM
I wanted to compare the price of the 2-shot cartridge to the single, but couldn't find cartridge prices.

I did find, however, the Bosch has to go in to a repair center for maintenance after 25 episodes. If you trigger the thing 25 times, you probably shouldn't be running it in the first place.

Agreed. I also wonder about the immune factor. Does one get more careless when using such a saw?

David G
03-19-2015, 11:50 AM
Agreed. I also wonder about the immune factor. Does one get more careless when using such a saw?

That's actually one factor in my decision not to adopt the technology in my shop. However... I am involved in two different organizations that have beginners and/or kids operating the equipment. For those... I'm quite seriously considering SawStop.

Tom Wilkinson
03-19-2015, 11:57 AM
That's actually one factor in my decision not to adopt the technology in my shop. However... I am involved in two different organizations that have beginners and/or kids operating the equipment. For those... I'm quite seriously considering SawStop.

The chance of a misfire, regardless of how reliable the mechanism is would be enough to keep me from being complacent due to the technology. I can't imagine it being a factor. I just can't justify replacing all three of my cabinet saws with a sawstop or similar tech. A retrofit mechanism for unisaws sure would be welcome. Lord knows there are enough of them out there.

Canoez
03-19-2015, 12:01 PM
Agreed. I also wonder about the immune factor. Does one get more careless when using such a saw?

Absolutely not. The spinning blade is still a gut-check, regardless of the safety equipment.

Tom - what do you mean "misfire" - failure to do the task or firing when it shouldn't?

Canoez
03-19-2015, 12:04 PM
I found a great quote on one of the review forums:

Good, but arrogant quote, IMO. Even pros make mistakes - and that is what this technology is really for - that .00001% accident.

David G
03-19-2015, 12:05 PM
The chance of a misfire, regardless of how reliable the mechanism is would be enough to keep me from being complacent due to the technology. I can't imagine it being a factor. I just can't justify replacing all three of my cabinet saws with a sawstop or similar tech. A retrofit mechanism for unisaws sure would be welcome. Lord knows there are enough of them out there.

I have an animism schtick as part of my training. It's about treating all of the power tools as if they are lurking, rapacious, carnivores... only kept under control by your unrelenting attention and focus. When I do it... it's OverTheTopRidiculous. But it seems to be memorable. Over 35+ years, and dozens (hundreds?) of employees, I've had zero lost-time accidents involving power tools. SawStop technology would blow my approach completely. I'll pass.

No way to train all those beginners, though. For those applications, and for any school situation... i think it's a Godsend.

Canoez
03-19-2015, 12:07 PM
My comment to students is that the saws really don't care what they're fed - wood or fingers. :(

Gerarddm
03-19-2015, 01:05 PM
When I started Boat school, they had just finished changing out all their table saws for SawStops. Evidently it was a financial move, they saved a bundle on insurance.

Paul Pless
03-19-2015, 01:10 PM
Evidently it was a financial move, they saved a bundle on insurance.
Never mind the planers,jointers,skilsaws,portable hand planers eh? As dangerous and mangling as the table saw can be, I think its the skills saw and the step ladder that cause the most tool related injuries in the U.S.

Purely on the job carpentry related I think its the frame nailing gun that send the most people to the emergency room. Its an easy thing to be careless with when you are trying to be quick. I've seen a couple of doozies just from people walking with their finger on the trigger.

Canoez
03-19-2015, 01:16 PM
I know that for the school where I teach, we needed to replace an aging Delta contractor's table saw. We wanted to replace it with a cabinet saw for dust collection purposes. We looked at Delta, Powermatic, SawStop and others. Ultimately, that first buy was influenced by cost/quality decisions - the fact that it was a SawStop saw was a bonus.

Once we had our first incident with that saw where a student could have been badly cut by the table saw and came away with just a nick that could be covered with a band-aid, the second Delta was replaced with another new SawStop within a week. (One that wasn't part of the budget!)

As Paul notes, we've still got a bunch of power tools that are dangerous, the two SawStop saws - or anything else that would be like it - were a good start. I'd imagine that we're saving some $$$ on insurance, too.

ron ll
03-19-2015, 01:58 PM
I've always heard that bandsaws are the most dangerous. Doesn't seem so to me, maybe that's why they are dangerous.

Canoez
03-19-2015, 02:08 PM
I've always heard that bandsaws are the most dangerous. Doesn't seem so to me, maybe that's why they are dangerous.

Think about that one for a minute. What do they use in butcher's shops to part out meat? Personally, I think jointers are under-rated.

Lew Barrett
03-19-2015, 02:10 PM
I just sold my PM66 only because we are moving across country and I didn't judge it worthwhile to move most of my heavy machinery. Of everything we're selling, that was one of the harder pieces to off, especially since I bought it new, one of the last of th US made Powermatics. But I'd have to put it (all) in storage anyway so it just makes sense to move it all on. I plan to buy replacements for my tools when we land wherever it is we land. I already know which saw I'm buying, not only because of the safety features, but because it's a great saw. The Bosch will have to be quite spectacular to beat the SS for precision work, not to mention dust collection.

Still, it's very encouraging to see these technologies being adopted and advanced.

john welsford
03-19-2015, 02:24 PM
I saw that. At first glance, it certainly does seem like an improvement. Need to compare actual response times to make sure thay ARE comparable.

And the SawStop system doesn't ALWAYS destroy the blade - but, at the very least, it requires re-sharpening, and perhaps truing. I like the fact that the Bosch version is less destructive. I REALLY like the way the cartridge is double... and can be flipped so as to put the saw back into service in a minute or two. Way less hassle and downtime!! Now... does this mean Bosch is gonna come out with a cabinet saw? SawStop saws are very nice. Carefully engineered. Nicely constructed. Quiet. Smooth. Right up there with Delta, Powermatic, Jet, etc.... and better in some ways. Or maybe Bosch is planning on doing the licensing agreement with other manufacturers that SawStop didn't manage to set up.

I've worked on a couple of Sawstop saws, while what you say David is true, they are also very sensitive to moisture, to buildup of dust in the switches, they dont extract the sawdust cleanly and sawdust buildup in the internals upsets some of the interlocks. They're fussy things, can be very annoying, and I'd not have one in my own shop. Having been the repairman for woodworking machinery for a long time now I've seen most of the saws available , Eastern or European, and I've a new MBS250 coming.
I'm keen to see what Bosch have come up with, the different approach seems much more workable.

John Welsford

Paul Pless
03-19-2015, 02:29 PM
I've always heard that bandsaws are the most dangerous. Doesn't seem so to me, maybe that's why they are dangerous.

Why? No kickback from a band saw, that eliminates a hell if lot of risk over the table saw. . .

john welsford
03-19-2015, 02:32 PM
You got it. The stats from our Accident Compensation Dept here in NZ tell the story, bandsaws, not as common as sawbenches in amateur workshops but have a proportionately higher accident rate. The accident rate for bandsaws in meat processing plants is a real problem, and I've been involved in a Govt dept move to reduce that. I got hold of some small laser line "torches" and fitted them to the machines so the cut line was illuminated, and took the chain mail gloves off the operators.
Way fewer accidents, and those that did happen were much less traumatic. Clean amputations but no crush damage from the glove being hooked in the ( generally 5 horsepower ) blade. The surgeons are generally able to reattach a clean amputation, and a missing finger generally leaves a hand workable but those mangled crushed hands are impossible to get working properly again.
Take care when using them.

John Welsford






I've always heard that bandsaws are the most dangerous. Doesn't seem so to me, maybe that's why they are dangerous.

john welsford
03-19-2015, 02:35 PM
You may find David that for the training organisations the insurance company will give you a discount if you put a "proven safety measure" such as a Sawstop in place.
Me, you know what I think. My new saw is about a month away, I'm looking forward to it.

John Welsford


That's actually one factor in my decision not to adopt the technology in my shop. However... I am involved in two different organizations that have beginners and/or kids operating the equipment. For those... I'm quite seriously considering SawStop.

Todd D
03-19-2015, 02:36 PM
I have an animism schtick as part of my training. It's about treating all of the power tools as if they are lurking, rapacious, carnivores... only kept under control by your unrelenting attention and focus. When I do it... it's OverTheTopRidiculous. But it seems to be memorable. Over 35+ years, and dozens (hundreds?) of employees, I've had zero lost-time accidents involving power tools. SawStop technology would blow my approach completely. I'll pass.

No way to train all those beginners, though. For those applications, and for any school situation... i think it's a Godsend.

Seems to me that the trick would be to buy the saw stop saw, but continue the approach toward saw safety you are using. Don't tell the workers that the saw has the safety tech. Besides, not everyone will always use a saw stop saw even though they start out on one.

Canoez
03-19-2015, 02:40 PM
Todd, you've really got to know it has the feature, because there are some instances where you want to turn the SawStop feature off - for example green or wet wood, pressure treated stock or metal. However your perspective on treating it just like any other table saw in terms of safety and practice is spot on.

Tom Wilkinson
03-19-2015, 03:12 PM
Absolutely not. The spinning blade is still a gut-check, regardless of the safety equipment.

Tom - what do you mean "misfire" - failure to do the task or firing when it shouldn't?
I mean failing to fire when it needs to. I don't know of any incidents like that, but it's always a possibility.


I have an animism schtick as part of my training. It's about treating all of the power tools as if they are lurking, rapacious, carnivores... only kept under control by your unrelenting attention and focus. When I do it... it's OverTheTopRidiculous. But it seems to be memorable. Over 35+ years, and dozens (hundreds?) of employees, I've had zero lost-time accidents involving power tools. SawStop technology would blow my approach completely. I'll pass.

No way to train all those beginners, though. For those applications, and for any school situation... i think it's a Godsend.
Sorry, but it makes no sense to me that you would approach the saw differently just because it's a sawstop.

Canoez
03-19-2015, 03:38 PM
I mean failing to fire when it needs to. I don't know of any incidents like that, but it's always a possibility.

You can actually check to see if the circuitry is working properly, but as you say, there is always the possibility that the cartridge wouldn't fire properly, but they're pretty simple.


Sorry, but it makes no sense to me that you would approach the saw differently just because it's a sawstop.

Both our commentaries touch on the reason you shouldn't approach them any differently - good habits with a table saw are good habits regardless of the saw.

Keith Wilson
03-19-2015, 08:06 PM
Never mind the planers, jointers, skilsaws, portable hand planers eh? Yeah, if I had a Sawstop jointer, my right thumb would be about 3/4" longer.

Gerarddm
03-19-2015, 08:43 PM
The worst accident when I was at Boat school happened across the hallway in Cabinet. A woman mangle her thumb with a router. Her screams were terrible to hear. Six months later she was back, her hand not quite up to par, but workable. Her work habits were considerably more focused.

oznabrag
03-19-2015, 08:55 PM
Why? No kickback from a band saw, that eliminates a hell if lot of risk over the table saw. . .

IMO, it is as Ron said.

The single most common band saw injury is to slice one's thumb off, because one 'steers the work through the blade with the pad and first knuckle of the thumb.

People just steer the board on through, and leave the tip of their thumb on the table.

TXdoug
03-19-2015, 09:12 PM
Why not just teach folks to not touch the spinning blade? I'm sure the fence pickets that I ripped today were wetter than a wiener.

If a fella can't poke something thru a table saw he probably can't use a circular saw without cutting his whoopy doo off anyway.

McMike
03-19-2015, 10:00 PM
Agreed. I also wonder about the immune factor. Does one get more careless when using such a saw?

Used a Sawstop a bit and I can say that I'm still afraid of the blade. Could be that years of mental conditioning, fearing the blade, can't be easly undone. I'd have to talk to newer woodworkers who have only had use of a Sawstop to see how they feel. Can you imagine what it must feel like, only having used a Sawstop for years and then useing a triditional saw?

McMike
03-19-2015, 10:04 PM
Why not just teach folks to not touch the spinning blade? I'm sure the fence pickets that I ripped today were wetter than a wiener.

If a fella can't poke something thru a table saw he probably can't use a circular saw without cutting his whoopy doo off anyway.

I know many professional, accomplished woodworkers that are missing parts of fingers and wish they'd have had a Sawstop. Accidents often have nothing to do with skill, that's why they call them accidents. Clearly, you're not a professional woodworker or you'd know that it's not really a matter of if, but when, a machine will bite you.

David G
03-19-2015, 10:35 PM
I mean failing to fire when it needs to. I don't know of any incidents like that, but it's always a possibility.

I'm not aware of any issues like that. I read the trade magazines, and online woodworking forums (forii?). I suspect if this were an issue at all, at all... it would be well-publicized, given the number of woodworkers who are suspicious of these new-fangled 'contraptions'. If anything... the issues trend the other way.


Sorry, but it makes no sense to me that you would approach the saw differently just because it's a sawstop.

I didn't say that I would approach the tool differently... though there is the niggling worry that I might. What I'm saying is that I've trained enough woodworkers, and know human nature to know that this safety-net will be relied upon by some proportion of employees. People WILL treat it differently. Of that I am convinced. I've seen it already. I choose to avoid their wake-up call... their blood on my tools... and the increase in worker's comp. rates - by sticking with an established system that's worked well for years. Maybe I'm just old and set in my ways... but I see no reason to change. As I said... where I do not have the opportunity to train and reinforce said training on an ongoing basis, the calculus changes.

goodbasil
03-19-2015, 11:59 PM
The reason so many are hurt with bandsaws is everyone thinks they are very safe.

TXdoug
03-20-2015, 07:16 AM
I know many professional, accomplished woodworkers that are missing parts of fingers and wish they'd have had a Sawstop. Accidents often have nothing to do with skill, that's why they call them accidents. Clearly, you're not a professional woodworker or you'd know that it's not really a matter of if, but when, a machine will bite you.


I spend my days building stores with some residential mixed in. 30 years and I don't know anyone who is missing a finger.
Hell I have so many spinning, whirling, cutting, shooting thingeys that changing to an exploding table saw won't change much.

delecta
03-20-2015, 08:19 AM
There is no such thing as an accident.

Canoez
03-20-2015, 08:42 AM
There is no such thing as an accident.

Maybe not, but there are moments of inattention, distraction, exhaustion and rushing a job.

bluedart73
03-20-2015, 09:46 AM
I didn't say that I would approach the tool differently... though there is the niggling worry that I might. What I'm saying is that I've trained enough woodworkers, and know human nature to know that this safety-net will be relied upon by some proportion of employees. People WILL treat it differently. Of that I am convinced. I've seen it already. I choose to avoid their wake-up call... their blood on my tools... and the increase in worker's comp. rates - by sticking with an established system that's worked well for years. Maybe I'm just old and set in my ways... but I see no reason to change. As I said... where I do not have the opportunity to train and reinforce said training on an ongoing basis, the calculus changes.

This is crazy. Do you ask your drivers to drive without seat belts so they will be more attentive? Put them at greater risk to heighten their caution level. Circuses use to do that for the high wire act.

delecta
03-20-2015, 09:58 AM
Maybe not, but there are moments of inattention, distraction, exhaustion and rushing a job.

Correct, respect the machine or pay the price.

David G
03-20-2015, 01:35 PM
I didn't say that I would approach the tool differently... though there is the niggling worry that I might. What I'm saying is that I've trained enough woodworkers, and know human nature to know that this safety-net will be relied upon by some proportion of employees. People WILL treat it differently. Of that I am convinced. I've seen it already. I choose to avoid their wake-up call... their blood on my tools... and the increase in worker's comp. rates - by sticking with an established system that's worked well for years. Maybe I'm just old and set in my ways... but I see no reason to change. As I said... where I do not have the opportunity to train and reinforce said training on an ongoing basis, the calculus changes.

This is crazy. Do you ask your drivers to drive without seat belts so they will be more attentive? Put them at greater risk to heighten their caution level. Circuses use to do that for the high wire act.

You are welcome to your opinion. And I can certainly see the logic. But... see... it's just an opinion. What I have to counter it (even if it might be counter-intuitive) is 35+ years of dozens of employees with NOT ONE lost time injury accident. None. With any of the machines... not just the table saw. None. It's a system that works, for me, the way I work it. Clearly. Why would I change it? Well... I'd change it... as I said... if I was no longer able to control the initial and ongoing training of the operators. The school and non-profit shared shop settings I mentioned are two examples of that. And I have no problem considering SawStop technology for those situations. I give thanks that it exists.

bluedart73
03-20-2015, 02:23 PM
I can see we will never change our thoughts on this and I hope your guys prove you right.
W
e have been running a scaffold crew and roofing crew and never needed the safety harness they are now required to use but we still insist they use them and are removed from job if they don't. Some of the more senior guys do chafe at the requirements but an accident (they could happen) is catastrophic. I don't they are more careless due to the safety harness. Any incident that would result in a major injury except for the intervention of a safety device will still be a significant positive lesson to all.


Be well. My term of "crazy" was too harsh. Sorry