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David G
03-15-2015, 12:25 PM
Seems like there are a number of folks on the forum who fall into that category on various topics... from lumber species to varnishing to economics. I see it again and again. I don't say this to denigrate those folks, but more to offer solace to those who attempt to engage them in rational discourse.

Here's one summary - pulled from the field of marketing/advertising, but almost perfectly transferable here --

http://blog.minethatdata.com/2012/06/knows-just-enough-to-be-dangerous.html

I particularly enjoyed his little scribbled graph. I don't share his disdain for 'best practices' as a starting point - but agree it's only a starting point. But when you take 'best practices' as emblematic of 'quickly acquired, shallow understanding'... the graph becomes quite illustrative of the phenomenon.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CEGPWs9I75Q/T9TybENYNyI/AAAAAAAABXc/eazmgaZGOEQ/s400/mtd_20120610.jpg

The flip side of the coin - which this little essay does not address - is those who actually know a lot about a given topic. While those who know little tend to over-estimate their level of understanding... those who know a lot tend to downplay their expertise, assuming that 'heck, everyone knows that'. Of course... there's nothing like a large, widely based online forum to disabuse one of THAT notion! Unfortunately, folks at the other end of the spectrum seem to find it difficult to become aware of how little they actually know.

And then - to some degree - personality comes into play. Some of us tend toward humility... others toward arrogance. Underlying degrees of insecurity or self-assurance factor in. I remember reading a Buddhist teaching that said something like: arrogance is wanting to be/appear right; humility is wanting to know/do what is right. But the human psyche is a complex thing - and there is also truth to Criss Jami's comment: There are two circumstances that lead to arrogance: one is when you're wrong and you can't face it; the other is when you're right and nobody else can face it.

john welsford
03-15-2015, 02:55 PM
Good point David, its one of the "elephants in the room" here and elsewhere on the internet. While a forum such as this is a great place for social intercourse I do worry about how newcomers looking for information can very easily be lead astray by "armchair admirals" who've read a book or two but who dont have real life experience. We get those on a lot of forums, its tempting to pitch in when I see it happening within my own field of experience but that too often starts a flame.

On books? One of my sayings to my classes is "Dont believe everything you read in books, people like me write them". But in general hard copy books are subjected to a much higher degree of review before publication than an internet forum posting, so tend to be much more reliable.

John Welsford

Paul Pless
03-15-2015, 02:57 PM
i love me a good jammersix post

David G
03-15-2015, 03:31 PM
I was deliberately choosing NOT to name names. I think there's enough grist for the mill here for those inclined to serious thought - without turning it into something personal or political.

AND... we're all ignorant about a bunch of topics. None of us are hugely experienced about everything. Impossible in one lifetime. I salute those who approach that endemic and unavoidable ignorance with an attitude of perpetual learning.

AND... even the most stubbornly ignorant among us occasionally offers up a fact, or a perspective, that is illuminating... or at least thought-provoking.

skuthorp
03-15-2015, 03:40 PM
And here I thought the thread title was referring to our politicians………………………..:D

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-15-2015, 03:48 PM
Good point David, its one of the "elephants in the room" here and elsewhere on the internet. While a forum such as this is a great place for social intercourse I do worry about how newcomers looking for information can very easily be lead astray by "armchair admirals" who've read a book or two but who dont have real life experience. We get those on a lot of forums, its tempting to pitch in when I see it happening within my own field of experience but that too often starts a flame.


John Welsford

Yes, such as people who can tell what alloy of bronze by looking at it, or scraping the surface.

Education is an ongoing thing. I tend to be a better student now that I realize how little I know.;)

Hugh Conway
03-15-2015, 03:53 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CEGPWs9I75Q/T9TybENYNyI/AAAAAAAABXc/eazmgaZGOEQ/s400/mtd_20120610.jpg



Misses the big problem with most internet arguments. Garbage in. The people feeding you the garbage - from most sources - are near the origin on that graph. And they don't care to get any better. Much like many managers and other members of the elite. Real knowledge isn't as marketable as no knowledge.

David G
03-15-2015, 03:56 PM
Yes, such as people who can tell what alloy of bronze by looking at it, or scraping the surface.

Education is an ongoing thing. I tend to be a better student now that I realize how little I know.;)

Again... I think this is an important topic (he stated, ever-so-modestly). I'd appreciate it if we could make our comments and contributions while leaving personalities out of it - at least until we have thoroughly exhausted the topic of the OP... then we can slang and slander whoever you wish, and watch the thread spiral into a fiery face-plant of pungent personalities... should that occur <G>

David G
03-15-2015, 04:09 PM
The OP certainly could apply to liberals... but the last 6 years has shown the country enough.

RodB

The OP is about all topics of concern to humans... including politics.

David G
03-15-2015, 04:15 PM
I think your OP clearly applies to all the so called liberal "political scientists and sociologists" on this forum.

rodB

Perhaps... but I also think it has wider application...

S.V. Airlie
03-15-2015, 04:22 PM
The OP certainly could apply to liberals... but the last 6 years has shown the country enough.

RodBYup, AND for some who were elected in this country two months ago, these people who have elected them are screaming "OH ****, what have we gone and done?"

Paul Pless
03-15-2015, 04:36 PM
The OP certainly could apply to liberals... but the last 6 years has shown the country enough.

RodBdoes every fooking thread have to go this way???

CWSmith
03-15-2015, 04:55 PM
Actually, the plot in #1 is a very good example of how we learn. Early on we think we know more than we do. In time we realize how much there is to learn. Eventually, we asymptotically approach a more thorough state of understanding.

This process is most easily halted by (1) being told you already know everything and (2) being distracted. I think we've seen both in this thread.

Peerie Maa
03-15-2015, 04:58 PM
The OP is a left wing extremist and from his past posts it only makes sense he is mostly referring to politics.

This thread was not started to have a congenial discussion about bad advice on boats.

My first post tried to play nice. It was hard to not point out the liberal attitude on most political subjects where they are right and the right are wrong.

Ok... I'll just assume I was wrong and we are only talking about boat work.

RodB

And economic theory, and science, and . . . . .



But if you give bad advice about boats you could kill someone.

CWSmith
03-15-2015, 05:17 PM
Some conservatives including myself may not know much about politics but most of us recognize true freedom in our society and those policies that would take freedoms away.

RodB

That's the problem. You see everything in those terms.

Peerie Maa
03-15-2015, 05:20 PM
Some conservatives including myself may not know much about politics but most of us recognize true freedom in our society and those policies that would take freedoms away.

RodB

We ran a thread some time ago exploring American Freedoms. It concluded that they were no different than any one else's, and in some areas other nations have greater freedom.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-15-2015, 05:32 PM
Again... I think this is an important topic (he stated, ever-so-modestly). I'd appreciate it if we could make our comments and contributions while leaving personalities out of it - at least until we have thoroughly exhausted the topic of the OP... then we can slang and slander whoever you wish, and watch the thread spiral into a fiery face-plant of pungent personalities... should that occur <G>

I'm confused. Did I mention a particular name?

David G
03-15-2015, 05:36 PM
I'm confused. Did I mention a particular name?

Please don't play word games. Those of us who read the forum know that there was a kerfuffle a while back about the topic you mentioned, and that you and another person got into it a bit... and that, therefore, that tiny bit of snark was, indeed, aimed at one person. So, yes, again, I'd appreciate if everyone would cleave to the original topic, and leaver politics/personalities out of it. Thanks.

David G
03-15-2015, 05:37 PM
I recently began looking into Common Core, which is supposedly an education standard for the entire nation to create better results for children but seems to in reality emulate communist indoctrination from the past for control. I don't want to debate that here but with billions from the Bill Gates foundation this program has been pretty much produced sold to the nation without any voting by congress or any other representatives of the people. Once parents and teachers began to see what was going on... well... I think over 40 states now want no part of Common Core. Its incredible how the Fed Gov dept of education tried to pass this off as simple education improvements but it has turned out to be much different. See my thread on this for more info if your interested.

Americans in general do not like being told how to educate their children or for that matter being told how to do much of anything. This is a free nation... and that concept is strongly held. I wonder if most other nations are as fixated on personal freedom if you really look at government programs being forced on its citizens with slick smooth sales techniques.

RodB

OK... I've asked various folks, several times, to leave personalities and politics out of it. Please re-read the OP, if necessary, and stick to to topic - if you would be so kind. Thanks.

oznabrag
03-15-2015, 05:40 PM
The OP is a left wing extremist and from his past posts it only makes sense he is mostly referring to politics.

This thread was not started to have a congenial discussion about bad advice on boats.

My first post tried to play nice. It was hard to not point out the liberal attitude on most political subjects where they are right and the right are wrong.

Ok... I'll just assume I was wrong and we are only talking about boat work.

RodB

Actually, he is only a lefty in your mind.

He's no extremist, by any stretch.

Just because Rwers are deluded, doesn't mean the rest of us have to buy in.

Peerie Maa
03-15-2015, 05:40 PM
I recently began looking into Common Core, which is supposedly an education standard for the entire nation to create better results for children but seems to in reality emulate communist indoctrination from the past for control. I don't want to debate that here but with billions from the Bill Gates foundation this program has been pretty much produced sold to the nation without any voting by congress or any other representatives of the people. Once parents and teachers began to see what was going on... well... I think over 40 states now want no part of Common Core. Its incredible how the Fed Gov dept of education tried to pass this off as simple education improvements but it has turned out to be much different. See my thread on this for more info if your interested.

Americans in general do not like being told how to educate their children or for that matter being told how to do much of anything. This is a free nation... and that concept is strongly held. I wonder if most other nations are as fixated on personal freedom if you really look at government programs being forced on its citizens with slick smooth sales techniques.

RodB

Does that include the freedom to completely screw up their kids futures by refusing to teach them the stuff that they need? With freedom comes responsibility.

Paul Pless
03-15-2015, 05:40 PM
this could turn into david g's best troll ever :D

Paul Pless
03-15-2015, 05:41 PM
With freedom comes responsibility.you're just trying to confuse us

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-15-2015, 05:42 PM
Please don't play word games. Those of us who read the forum know that there was a kerfuffle a while back about the topic you mentioned, and that you and another person got into it a bit... and that, therefore, that tiny bit of snark was, indeed, aimed at one person. So, yes, again, I'd appreciate if everyone would cleave to the original topic, and leaver politics/personalities out of it. Thanks.

There was no kerfuffle. I corrected an non factual response to a question. If you want to support inaccurate answers, that's your privilege. I think differently. If I thought you posted inaccurate answers to questions posed here, I would call you out on it too. Frankly, you generally only post on things you have expertise on.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-15-2015, 05:44 PM
[QUOTE=RodB;
Americans in general do not like being told how to educate their children or for that matter being told how to do much of anything. This is a free nation... and that concept is strongly held. I wonder if most other nations are as fixated on personal freedom if you really look at government programs being forced on its citizens with slick smooth sales techniques.

RodB[/QUOTE]

Never a truer statement made, since America has one of highest levels of functional illiteracy in the developed world.

CWSmith
03-15-2015, 05:56 PM
I was tying to understand how politics found its way into this thread and it seems that some postings went poof. Did I miss them?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-15-2015, 06:03 PM
Scot once again.

The beauty of this forum is that they allow a place like the bilge to exist, but then take out any parts they object to..... which include blowing out a bunch of boat posts too. Yawn.

Jim Mahan
03-15-2015, 06:06 PM
And then - to some degree - personality comes into play. Some of us tend toward humility... others toward arrogance. Underlying degrees of insecurity or self-assurance factor in...the human psyche is a complex thing...

A factor, I've mentioned previously, is the level of consciousness and the greater likelihood of making progress in it's evolution, the more progress you make; the higher you go, the easier it is to go higher. Conversely, there is less likelihood of getting above of the primitive end of the spectrum by being conservative (in general, not necessarily as a political orientation, but the same thing applies there, as well), perceiving and deciding based on existential fears and guilt, and greed and selfishness based on the belief in scarcity. Theives and vandals, for instance, on this end of this spectrum.


...we're all ignorant about a bunch of topics. None of us are hugely experienced about everything. Impossible in one lifetime. I salute those who approach that endemic and unavoidable ignorance with an attitude of perpetual learning.

This is a good example. Folks who get that, also tend to be humble and forgiving, gentle, helpful and generous. Those further along the spectrum tend to be more and more about others as time goes by, and to be more likely to be involved as a member of society, a good citizen. People that show up as statesmen are closer to that end of the spectrum. They, the more consciously evolved, like some even on this forum, tend to use more commas, in their helpful internet expositions, and fewer instances of BOLD ALL CAPS . Just sayin.'

skuthorp
03-15-2015, 06:28 PM
As an evolving species we had the 'freedom' of making mistakes, some of them fatal. As a family group then the tribe then the larger community they learnt and passed on the knowledge. Rod's 'freedoms' would take you back to square one if followed to their logical conclusions.
[QUOTE=RodB;
Americans in general do not like being told how to educate their children or for that matter being told how to do much of anything."
And as for children, they are not property, if you decide to have them you take on a responsibility to equip them for life in the best possible way, not transfer your own ignorances and psychological hang ups to them as seems unfortunately to often be the case.

Peerie Maa
03-15-2015, 06:31 PM
Scot once again.

The beauty of this forum is that they allow a place like the bilge to exist, but then take out any parts they object to..... which include blowing out a bunch of boat posts too. Yawn.

Was it this thread or some other that triggered the implosion?

PhaseLockedLoop
03-15-2015, 06:45 PM
Jesus H. Christ. What a thread...

Paul Pless
03-15-2015, 06:50 PM
Jesus H. Christ. What a thread...you shoulda seen it before scot cleaned it up

skuthorp
03-15-2015, 06:53 PM
Either I missed that or I'm not as sensitive as some. Probably the latter as I am quite good at ignoring ignorance and hot air.

Arizona Bay
03-15-2015, 07:03 PM
Was it this thread or some other that triggered the implosion?


The War within the republican Party thread is gone and the angry R is banned.

CWSmith
03-15-2015, 07:07 PM
Either I missed that or I'm not as sensitive as some. Probably the latter as I am quite good at ignoring ignorance and hot air.

:) I've read Hot Air's comments, but who is Ignorance?

CWSmith
03-15-2015, 07:27 PM
the angry R is banned.

I'm sorry, but can we start an "angry R" thread and fill it with the most left-wing hyperbole (look it up, R) we can manufacture? It will make his head explode (in a totally nonthreatening way). You know he's watching.

Gerarddm
03-15-2015, 07:37 PM
Rs of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!

< Cue Aretha Franklin's song HERE>

Arizona Bay
03-15-2015, 08:14 PM
I'm sorry, but can we start an "angry R" thread and fill it with the most left-wing hyperbole (look it up, R) we can manufacture? It will make his head explode (in a totally nonthreatening way). You know he's watching.


I don't think it would take hyperbole... ;)

He's a Master Projectionist!

Canoez
03-15-2015, 08:16 PM
Yes, such as people who can tell what alloy of bronze by looking at it, or scraping the surface.

Education is an ongoing thing. I tend to be a better student now that I realize how little I know.;)

I've always figured that the more you know, the more you realize there is to know. While to some, I am a teacher, I strive to be an eternal student.

S.V. Airlie
03-15-2015, 08:55 PM
I've always figured that the more you know, the more you realize there is to know. While to some, I am a teacher, I strive to be an eternal student.I agree with that sentiment. Every question answered leads to another question.

hokiefan
03-15-2015, 09:19 PM
The War within the republican Party thread is gone and the angry R is banned.

Which angry R?

S.V. Airlie
03-15-2015, 09:21 PM
Rod! Ron ran off to hide!:)

David G
03-15-2015, 09:53 PM
Misses the big problem with most internet arguments. Garbage in. The people feeding you the garbage - from most sources - are near the origin on that graph. And they don't care to get any better. Much like many managers and other members of the elite. Real knowledge isn't as marketable as no knowledge.

Yes... that's one of the challenges of being a beginner. It's good to get advice - to help you get started on the right foot. But with the plethora of sources these days... WHOSE advice do we heed? A beginner doesn't have enough experience to judge. So one has to trust to reputable sources, direct questions as close to the fountainhead as can be managed, and one's own inherent good judgement. It also helps to understand that continuing to move forward with direct experience is the key, and the optimum is to also continue to winnow out the unreliable sources and cultivate the good ones... in an ongoing effort to continue ones education. Those two things really ARE synergisticly linked.

I really like Mr. Welsford's tagline.

Jim Mahan
03-15-2015, 10:07 PM
Every question answered leads to another question.

That's part of the illusion.

David G
03-15-2015, 10:59 PM
Closely related to Dunning-Kruger Effect... which has been mentioned here before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

john welsford
03-15-2015, 11:14 PM
Yes, I know a guy who can do that, but he's a non ferrous specialist foundryman of many years experience, anyone else I'd not trust to get it right. Me included.
On your comment about "education" When I was drawing my first few boats everything seemed very black and white, but these days there are more and more shades of grey ( curse that book for ruining a perfectly good expression).

John Welsford


Yes, such as people who can tell what alloy of bronze by looking at it, or scraping the surface.

Education is an ongoing thing. I tend to be a better student now that I realize how little I know.;)

TomF
03-16-2015, 08:15 AM
OK, I get the OP. But I want to take issue with the implicit stuff about "best practices." They're an illusion, of course. there's nothing "best" about most of them, just "a whole lot better than the usual dreck."

A person might, after a lifetime's work, become an actual expert in something. A fabulous baseball pitcher, or primary care physician, or civil engineer. But that person won't be a fabulous baseball pitcher AND primary care physician AND civil engineer. And presuming that at some points in their lives, most folks will bump into times and situations where some elements of each of those skill-sets will be required of them ... how to proceed?

A "Pareto Rule" approach has a lot to commend it. Try to get the first 20% of the learning ... or learn where to hire or otherwise recognize and acquire it ... and reap as many benefits as you can from that. It isn't perfect by a long, long stretch ... but "the perfect" really is "the enemy of the good."

JimD
03-16-2015, 08:21 AM
I've already forgotten more than I'll ever know.

Chris Woodward
03-16-2015, 08:45 AM
I've already told you more than I know.

John Smith
03-16-2015, 09:40 AM
I think it is important for one to be well aware of where his knowledge ends. I've seen garage mechanics make the problem worse, and more costly to get properly fixed.

More important, IMO, is the belief in facts that are simply not true.

Ted Hoppe
03-16-2015, 11:28 AM
I think the article should have been written....People who think they know but lack supervisory experience are overseeing people who don't know but are working hard to meet the moving metric of a dynamic sales business.

My opinion is that failure is the best teacher. Knowing a little give you confidence to risk. Knowing too much takes risk away so work is less aggressive or bold. I don't know how many times i screw things up to become good at something. Now-a-day work is being documented that points of failure are easy to track in one's history by just following the digital trail. All too often people are willing to point out one's mistakes or be critical to one another rather use the moments for teaching or being self defensive.

Jim Mahan
03-16-2015, 11:46 AM
My opinion is that failure is the best teacher.

Yes. Goes with the idea that the way to get a really good idea, is to have many ideas, most of which are going to be bad. This works as long as there are good critical thinking skills involved along the way. Which also keeps the alzheimer's at bay. Being on the right track seems to be accompanied by the occasional face-palm moment, and tends to generate a little humility.

John Smith
03-16-2015, 12:18 PM
I don't remember who said this, but it had some merit: Ideas are like frogs; might have to kiss many before one turns into a prince.