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john welsford
03-10-2015, 07:25 PM
A couple of years ago David Perillo made a series of stunning videos on cruising in small boats.
He had one of my “Navigator” sailing cruisers, then, having left his first one with friends in the outer Islands of Fiji, bought another.
I was wasting a bit of time at lunchtime today, mulling over the differences in cruising in my big 15 ton ship, and my preferred small boats. Davids short video really puts it in context, I hope it inspires people to get out and about in their small boats.
Its almost autumn here, and I’d guess that in the northern hemisphere there will be signs of spring, here is some inspiration that should have you out and getting that boat sorted for the upcoming season.
A puptent, a sleeping bag, a small sailboat and paradise is yours for a few days.

You might have seen it before but its worth the few minutes to watch again. Thanks David.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG0-onhxS9M

John Welsford

Mikey Floyd
03-10-2015, 07:44 PM
Thanks for the link! I had actually stumbled across that recently, I think it's the best cruising dinghy offering on youtube.

I've also followed the bigger bigger path of boats and am about to start building myself a heavyish sixteen footer for a return to what I love the most. I've enjoyed your site John and taken inspiration from your designs, writings and experience. Thankyou!

John B
03-10-2015, 08:03 PM
What's Dave doing these days John , there was a time we'd see him several times a season out there but I haven't this year at all.
That was funny I watched the video and that lead me to a mahurangi vid that I hadn't seen before , there's my kids boats at the beginning and a shot of us sailing Waione.( about 1min 25 or so in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMgyN3SqgIk

Jase
03-11-2015, 02:08 AM
almost time Waione found her way back to the sea isn't it John :P

john welsford
03-11-2015, 02:37 AM
I spoke to him not so long ago, by email anyway. I gather that right now he's on holiday in Bali, but has not been doing much sailing. He did say he wants to get is AWOL, Medusa, out more but between business, social and other things there is not much time left for sailing.
There is a group of us hoping to meet up on the water sometime in the next month or two, I'll have either Spook or SEI, and there are several others wanting to join in a little ramble around the several coastal camping sites between the Wade and Sandspit. Should be fun.

Anyone interested, watch for dates on my blog at http://jwboatdesigns.blogspot.co.nz/
You'd be welcome.

John Welsford




What's Dave doing these days John , there was a time we'd see him several times a season out there but I haven't this year at all.
That was funny I watched the video and that lead me to a mahurangi vid that I hadn't seen before , there's my kids boats at the beginning and a shot of us sailing Waione.( about 1min 25 or so in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMgyN3SqgIk

john welsford
03-11-2015, 02:39 AM
Thanks Mikey, designers live on compliments more so than money.
Good luck with the new boat, lots of interesting cruising on the Hawkesbury River, I wish I was there more often.

John Welsford



Thanks for the link! I had actually stumbled across that recently, I think it's the best cruising dinghy offering on youtube.

I've also followed the bigger bigger path of boats and am about to start building myself a heavyish sixteen footer for a return to what I love the most. I've enjoyed your site John and taken inspiration from your designs, writings and experience. Thankyou!

keyhavenpotterer
03-11-2015, 05:57 AM
John,

If you ever have free time, you should consider writing a book on small boat yacht design, proportions, ratios and areas: make it available on kindle for electronic download so there is no publishing fee and stack of books to distribute. I think people would pay good money for that. Easy through Payal. Small boats are not the same as yachts, and small boats that can be used for crusing (like Oughtred's) are not the same as specific crusing dinghies. It's a fairly empty market. Your boats are all great looking, perform very well and inspire people.

My favourite navigator photo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/joserouse/Sailing/roto_09.jpg

and this one.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/32264903@N03/3016774461

Who's is she?

I'd love to get a Pathfinder into the Maldives (with a bimini and a steel plate): I think you'd have to sleep afloat.

I want to build one of your boats, just want my Shearwater friggin fishished. I'm on it again. Centreboard glassing on the dining table.

Ed

CapnJ2ds
03-11-2015, 07:20 AM
Really neat little video!
That pic above - is that Lake Rotoiti? (The real one, I mean, not the North island one ;) )

Oh, and there's a bloke over in the Build page looking for some advice on a piece of woodworking machinery. Don't know if it's your line of thing, though.

john welsford
03-11-2015, 01:44 PM
I'm pretty sure that it is John.
And I've gone and put in my twopence worth on that thread on woodworking machinery.
Thanks for the heads up.

Coming over for dinner sometime soon?

John W


Really neat little video!
That pic above - is that Lake Rotoiti? (The real one, I mean, not the North island one ;) )

Oh, and there's a bloke over in the Build page looking for some advice on a piece of woodworking machinery. Don't know if it's your line of thing, though.

john welsford
03-11-2015, 01:49 PM
Thanks Ed, the last couple of years has not been a good time at my house, but things are steadily improving and I'm beginning to make progress on several projects that have been on hold. There is a lot to catch up on, two book projects and several design projects among them.

Good suggestion, thanks.
I know about fiberglassing on the kitchen table, I'd guess that its warm enough in there to get the epoxy to set?

John W


John,

If you ever have free time, you should consider writing a book on small boat yacht design, proportions, ratios and areas: make it available on kindle for electronic download so there is no publishing fee and stack of books to distribute. I think people would pay good money for that. Easy through Payal. Small boats are not the same as yachts, and small boats that can be used for crusing (like Oughtred's) are not the same as specific crusing dinghies. It's a fairly empty market. Your boats are all great looking, perform very well and inspire people.

My favourite navigator photo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/joserouse/Sailing/roto_09.jpg

and this one.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/32264903@N03/3016774461

Who's is she?

I'd love to get a Pathfinder into the Maldives (with a bimini and a steel plate): I think you'd have to sleep afloat.

I want to build one of your boats, just want my Shearwater friggin fishished. I'm on it again. Centreboard glassing on the dining table.

Ed

keyhavenpotterer
03-12-2015, 06:11 PM
I know about fiberglassing on the kitchen table, I'd guess that its warm enough in there to get the epoxy to set?

John W

Yeah its ideal, a so called temperature controlled environment. Means my resin and wood are at the same temps. I've used the MAS low viscosity resin which is supposed to be optimujm for laminating the glass on for the first time. It smells a bit more than the odour free mas flag resin and has left a good finish. Bought some peel ply to try but decided in the end not to bother with it. Squeegee on so not too thick and I'll fill the grain on a second application. Cut then stapled the cloth outside the foil together behind the trailing edge to keep it as taught as I could. I used some plastic pyramids to support the foil on between turnovers and I think they worked really well. Glass came away a bit in places on the trailing edge that i'd left square on the underside but overall pretty good. Putting 3 layers of 200g on. One left. Do it in the evening before heat goes off so wood doesn't out gas as temp drops a bit. Lam. Resin seems to go off a bit slower taking 24hrs, and has a pigmented hardener.

I took your advice on here and bought a Placom digital planimeter for measuring areas. Came from us ebay and arrived on my birthday. Perfect. Clever thing, I still haven't figured out how it does the maths. I read H. Butlers book on yacht design recently, and made me understand how to use it. It was interesting reading his comments about keel volume aft offsetting the increase in volume aft as the trasom submerges with heal, helping to offset weather helm, to help it run straight. By so doing it can have a narrower waterline entry rather than a wider forward section that would be needed otherwise to balance it out longitudinally. Read another more modern book that came out this spring. Its called 'Performance by design' by Donald Blout. Its exceptional well written and deals with semi displacement to semi planing efficiency speeds. Load of solid graphs and ratio's. If you want a good read this NZ winter I'd highly recommend it, though you probably know it all already. I found an old book written by a.s. Oliver called 'boats and boatbuilding in west Cornwall' that has details of the pilchard drivers, luggers and gigs. If like historical works 'Ships fastenings from sewn boat to steamship' by mcarthy is a great winter read.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/painter-s-pyramid


Ed

john welsford
03-12-2015, 11:34 PM
I'm using cheap plastic shower cloth as a substitute for peel ply, it needs more work with a squeegee than the "real" stuff but is about a tenth of the price.
There are several alternatives, and the one I'm using is just very faintly porous. If you think you can suck air through it but arent sure, thats about right.

Concentration for long enough to read a technical publication has been an issue, but I'm about there again, so some study and research is on the agenda.
I know of Donald Blount, we used one of his RINA papers in teaching marine design, particularly the one on high speed motor vessels where a lot of his work was.
I'll look out for a copy of Performance by Design, thanks for that.

My Placom planimeter is a essential part of my soul, I use it not only for design but for analysis of an existing line drawing, I got hold of the lines of a fairly late built Falmouth Oyster boat which yielded some most interesting figures, and you might try doing the same with one of Dan Hatchers Itchen Ferries.
Match the numbers with the known performance and handling characteristics and you'll have something that will keep you thinking for a while.

John Welsford

keyhavenpotterer
03-13-2015, 02:45 AM
I will do. I found a set of prints for the Itchen Ferry Nellie when they took her lines off that also has scantlings a few years ago in the Science Museum of all places. Also just got an old book reprint from British Museum that has Foam's lines by Arthur Payne that some say was the fastest one. The numbers for Hatcher's Wonder are in the Greenwich Museum though her lines are in one of the Days of Sail and Oar books. Will have to make a pilgrimage. Shallower and beamier than the Falmouth boats but quite similar. If I build a Wonder one day its going to be called Wonderful.

I'd read in one of the books that they put some bottles among the inside ballast cement to help break it up, but more clever than that, they put the scrap ballast in the middle, then the bottles fore and aft in the cement so there was no weight there but did have a level flat bilge so water didn't pool. Also found out they overwintered them in a small pond right next to the beach at Itchen, that may have been the draught limiter for them besides its more shallow on the banks of the Solent where they still have oyster beds.I read a designer say they would develop a lot of weather helm, but the originals had much bigger rudders than how they ended up later with prop cut outs etc. Like you say, I can do a H. Butler analysis on it and isolate out the heal effects on the hull balace from the rigs lateral movement of effort at least by his method. The symmetry of sailing book says its the lateral movement of the sail area outwards that's the greatest contributor, so hull stiffness is a factor as is getting the rig cofe low I guess. The itchen boats had these except the low drag rig, so the weather helm must be in the hull shape if it does develop.

From the point of view if healed balance, it makes a lot of sense to a have a transom forward if you have one aft, like on Scamp. Dad's trying to resist buying one that needs finishing off. Think we might have to go and get it...

john welsford
03-13-2015, 04:48 AM
One of the interesting statistical "pictures" that indicate how a hull will handle is to map the change of trim that will happen as the boat is heeled.
If the boat changes trim going quickly bow down as she is heeled she will develop a strong weather helm as she goes over. The old IOR racers were very bad in this respect, and its one of the major reasons why SCAMP has a transom forward.
I think that you'll find that Nellie is relatively neutral for maybe 15 deg then will start to change trim.
On those older full keeled boats the center of effort and lateral plane are further forward than we'd expect today, and that too effects the helm, just check out those very long bowsprits.
In the late 1800s many people preferred internal ballast as the boats motion was much easier, in part due to the ballast being higher, but also the slack bilges needed to accommodate all the rock and cement tended to produce a slower roll and pitch. Its interesting to study the development from workboat to recreational boat, and I'm a firm believer in studying the type and history of boats that evolved to sail in an area in which I am designing a new boat for.
Tell Brian to go grab that SCAMP.
John Welsford


I will do. I found a set of prints for the Itchen Ferry Nellie when they took her lines off that also has scantlings a few years ago in the Science Museum of all places. Also just got an old book reprint from British Museum that has Foam's lines by Arthur Payne that some say was the fastest one. The numbers for Hatcher's Wonder are in the Greenwich Museum though her lines are in one of the Days of Sail and Oar books. Will have to make a pilgrimage. Shallower and beamier than the Falmouth boats but quite similar. If I build a Wonder one day its going to be called Wonderful.

I'd read in one of the books that they put some bottles among the inside ballast cement to help break it up, but more clever than that, they put the scrap ballast in the middle, then the bottles fore and aft in the cement so there was no weight there but did have a level flat bilge so water didn't pool. Also found out they overwintered them in a small pond right next to the beach at Itchen, that may have been the draught limiter for them besides its more shallow on the banks of the Solent where they still have oyster beds.I read a designer say they would develop a lot of weather helm, but the originals had much bigger rudders than how they ended up later with prop cut outs etc. Like you say, I can do a H. Butler analysis on it and isolate out the heal effects on the hull balace from the rigs lateral movement of effort at least by his method. The symmetry of sailing book says its the lateral movement of the sail area outwards that's the greatest contributor, so hull stiffness is a factor as is getting the rig cofe low I guess. The itchen boats had these except the low drag rig, so the weather helm must be in the hull shape if it does develop.

From the point of view if healed balance, it makes a lot of sense to a have a transom forward if you have one aft, like on Scamp. Dad's trying to resist buying one that needs finishing off. Think we might have to go and get it...

PeterSibley
03-13-2015, 05:08 AM
Mikey Floyd's BLINK fills those criteria , 5500 kg displacement with 2500 kg inside ballast and quite slack bilges. An attractive shape with lots of internal space, a gentle motion I'd imagine and probably relatively tender initially but hardening up nicely.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/pfusf1f1ombix74/blink%20lines.JPG?dl=0

Mikey Floyd
03-13-2015, 05:16 AM
Hi John and Ed, This is a discussion I'm hugely interested in joining, unfortunately tonight I'm stuck 'typing' on my phone as I don't have enough power to run my computer until the sun comes up tomorrow.
Somewhere I came across a reference to potential writings about your thoughts regarding 'West Country Workboats' John. Do such writings exist? Can I access them?

You can bet I'll have more to say here with the new rising sun!

Cheers, Mikey!

CapnJ2ds
03-15-2015, 09:00 PM
I'm pretty sure that it is John.
And I've gone and put in my twopence worth on that thread on woodworking machinery.
Thanks for the heads up.

Coming over for dinner sometime soon?

John W

Chance would be a fine thing! :D Seems like every time I get some "my time", someone finds something for me to do. I thinks there's conspiracy ...................

Oh, and on the subject of woodworking machinery, a mate is looking for an old "four by four" (I have no idea what that is, other than some sort of woodworking/milling gizmo) to take up to the Philipines, to stop the locals wood-butchering with chain saws, apparently. Do you know of one of these lying about the place somewhere?

john welsford
03-15-2015, 11:21 PM
Might do, Wadkin FD pushfeed moulder 4inch by 4 inch, I'll have a look, the toolroom for the machine is the hard one to find and the moulder is a waste of time without.

You get bounced around much today?

John Welsford



Chance would be a fine thing! :D Seems like every time I get some "my time", someone finds something for me to do. I thinks there's conspiracy ...................

Oh, and on the subject of woodworking machinery, a mate is looking for an old "four by four" (I have no idea what that is, other than some sort of woodworking/milling gizmo) to take up to the Philipines, to stop the locals wood-butchering with chain saws, apparently. Do you know of one of these lying about the place somewhere?

john welsford
03-15-2015, 11:23 PM
I've written one or two magazine articles way off in the past Mikey, but as I've come across more information and done more experiments some of my points of view have changed, so those wont be appropriate today.
I'm buried in catching up with a life severely disrupted by health issues, a book is part of that workload so, sorry, not much chance for a while.

John Welsford


Hi John and Ed, This is a discussion I'm hugely interested in joining, unfortunately tonight I'm stuck 'typing' on my phone as I don't have enough power to run my computer until the sun comes up tomorrow.
Somewhere I came across a reference to potential writings about your thoughts regarding 'West Country Workboats' John. Do such writings exist? Can I access them?

You can bet I'll have more to say here with the new rising sun!

Cheers, Mikey!

Mikey Floyd
03-16-2015, 01:51 AM
I've written one or two magazine articles way off in the past Mikey, but as I've come across more information and done more experiments some of my points of view have changed, so those wont be appropriate today.
I'm buried in catching up with a life severely disrupted by health issues, a book is part of that workload so, sorry, not much chance for a while.

John Welsford

All good. Health before anything! I wish you great strength and healing power.

john welsford
03-16-2015, 02:37 AM
Thanks for the kind thought.

JohnW


All good. Health before anything! I wish you great strength and healing power.

Paul Pless
03-16-2015, 05:41 AM
Thank you for the video and update John.

Akin to this, am I the only one here who misses the Wet Ass Chronicles. . .

CapnJ2ds
03-17-2015, 08:05 AM
Might do, Wadkin FD pushfeed moulder 4inch by 4 inch, I'll have a look, the toolroom for the machine is the hard one to find and the moulder is a waste of time without.

You get bounced around much today?

John Welsford

Nah. With a small tide the breakwater stayed above water so the easterly period was just a bit windy. when it started to go southerly it just fizzled.