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Dave Hadfield
02-27-2015, 08:49 AM
From the BBC: A US citizen, Bangladeshi-born, professional engineer, was targeted for his blogs, and killed while walking home from a Book Fair.

The killers have anot been identified, but a hard-line Islamist group is suspected.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31656222

Can you invent a more tragic irony? A Book Fair...

"Avijit Roy, an atheist who advocated secularism, was attacked in Dhaka as he
walked back from a book fair with his wife, who was hurt in the attack.
No-one has been arrested but police say they are investigating a local
Islamist group that praised the killing.
Hundreds of students gathered in Dhaka to mourn the blogger's death.
Mr Roy's family say he had received threats after publishing articles
promoting secular views, science and social issues on his Bengali-language blog,
Mukto-mona, or Free Mind.
He defended atheism in a recent Facebook post, calling it "a rational concept
to oppose any unscientific and irrational belief".
The website was inaccessible on Friday.
The killing in early 2013 of another secular blogger, Ahmed Rajib Haider,
which was blamed on religious hardliners, sparked protests from free-speech
supporters and counter-protests from Islamists.
The police said the attack on Mr Roy was similar to the 2013 murder.
A group of men ambushed the couple, who live in the US and were visiting
Dhaka only to attend the book festival, as they walked toward a roadside tea
stall."

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 09:24 AM
Murder is always regrettable. Nonetheless it is stupid to malign people and then walk unarmed in their bailiwick.

Flying Orca
02-27-2015, 09:25 AM
Ah, it's that peaceful old religion thing again.

Flying Orca
02-27-2015, 09:26 AM
Murder is always regrettable. Nonetheless it is stupid to malign people and then walk unarmed in their bailiwick.

And the victim of this heinous crime maligned whom, exactly?

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 09:28 AM
And the victim of this heinous crime maligned whom, exactly? Do you not understand the organic nature of Islam?

Flying Orca
02-27-2015, 09:30 AM
Do you not understand the organic nature of Islam?

That's not an answer to my question. To answer your question, the "organic nature of Islam" is that it's a product of the minds of animals that run largely on organic chemistry.

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 09:32 AM
That's not an answer to my question. To answer your question, the "organic nature of Islam" is that it's a product of the minds of animals that run largely on organic chemistry. Think of "organic" as opposed to "institutional" - as concepts of governance.

Flying Orca
02-27-2015, 09:35 AM
Think of answering my question, if you can.

Chris Woodward
02-27-2015, 09:39 AM
Do you not understand the organic nature of Islam?

I understand the organic nature of fundamentalist religion fanatics. Whether they are Muslim, Jewish, or Christian.

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 09:40 AM
Think of answering my question, if you can. Let me simplify it for you. Preaching atheism to Muslims is like attacking their religion, their Prophet, and them personally. I'm not saying I agree with their reaction, only that it is so. Salmon Rushdie did something similar and went into hiding/protection - the engineer failed to show like discernment.

Flying Orca
02-27-2015, 09:46 AM
Let me simplify it for you: you claimed that the victim maligned someone. You have not demonstrated that he did so. I'm asking you, again, to demonstrate that he did.

Advocating atheism and science does not malign others. Neither does criticizing specific ideas, whether they are nonsense cloaked in the supposed respectability of religion or nonsense bereft of such traditional cover.

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 09:49 AM
Let me simplify it for you: you claimed that the victim maligned someone. You have not demonstrated that he did so. I'm asking you, again, to demonstrate that he did. Now you are being obtuse, or deliberately ignorant - discussion over.

Flying Orca
02-27-2015, 09:51 AM
Now you are being obtuse, or deliberately ignorant - discussion over.

As I thought - you can't validate your attempt to blame the victim.

John Smith
02-27-2015, 10:12 AM
Let me simplify it for you: you claimed that the victim maligned someone. You have not demonstrated that he did so. I'm asking you, again, to demonstrate that he did.

Advocating atheism and science does not malign others. Neither does criticizing specific ideas, whether they are nonsense cloaked in the supposed respectability of religion or nonsense bereft of such traditional cover.

Isn't this in the eye of the beholder. If one believes you have in some way insulted him, does it really matter if you did or not?

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 10:14 AM
Isn't this in the eye of the beholder. If one believes you have in some way insulted him, does it really matter if you did or not? Clear thinking.

TomF
02-27-2015, 10:39 AM
It takes damned little to rouse some people to kill. I wish this were isolated, but it isn't.

Some parts of the world, the buttons to lethal violence seem a lot easier to push. I had dinner on Tuesday with a young man from Ruanda who's studying Engineering here. He asked my youngest what sports he did. The lad replied "Karate" ... and to a quizzical look said "You know, practice for fighting. Self defence." My Ruandan guest shrugged with some bewilderment at the concept.

He mildly (and somewhat chillingly, from my lad's perspective) said "In my country, you start to fight like that ... and then someone just shoots you."

George Jung
02-27-2015, 10:47 AM
The violent response to perceived criticism has a certain allure, for some - it allows those who perhaps can't make a lucid defense of their beliefs, to 'win' the debate, anyway - rather by default (or death). No need to be smart, educated or articulate - just get your mob, and attack.

Flying Orca
02-27-2015, 10:57 AM
Isn't this in the eye of the beholder. If one believes you have in some way insulted him, does it really matter if you did or not?

Yes, it does. To accept the classification of a certain set of ideas as somehow being special, being privileged, being exempt from critical examination because it might be perceived as insulting, is dangerous to the future of our species... and by extension, to every other species. Some people may not care whether humanity eventually achieves an acceptable measure of civilization - I do.

TomF
02-27-2015, 11:10 AM
I agree, Orca, with some caveats.

The caveats are much like the ones I've been taught about self-defence; that situational awareness is the first and largest element. I ought to be free to express any views I wish, publicly examine any set of ideas. In some contexts, that's safe - in others, it will put me in danger. I couldn't have denounced Stalin while living in Moscow ... Oscar Romero found that he couldn't question the junta or the structure of power in El Salvador. This guy found that he couldn't (within his particular Islamic culture) denounce belief.

I ought to be free to walk down dark alleys at night alone too, waggling my full wallet. Young women ought to be free to walk the same alleys alone without fear of a sexual attack. For either of us, those principles and oughts won't keep us safe.

Osborne Russell
02-27-2015, 11:29 AM
It doesn't take much to incite violence in Bangladesh.

1. Over-population.
2. The individual is utterly overwhelmed by numbers.
3. Individuals seek a countervailing strength in numbers, so they organize groups.
4. The group must have a criterion for admission and expulsion, to make many minds think alike, above all, with regard to the purpose of group self-defense.
5. Voila, religion, as a social phenomenon. A new form of tribe. Tribes are based on geographic and ethnic isolation. Over-population makes that impossible.

The various cultural aspects can be seen as merely the forms of biological processes, similar to those that go on with, for example, the social insects. Kill the invader. Who's the invader? Anyone who's different, even if he was born and raised in the same hive.

Or maybe bees, termites and ants also have religions and cultures, and that's why they turn on a freak and mercilessly cut him to pieces.

Either way, it's a response to the relative weakness of the individual, which varies directly with population density.

In this sense, one could say it's an organic situation. A very general description.

The purpose of government is to combat this phenomenon in order to protect the rights of the individual. You might not enter this combat by frontal assault, but sometimes you must; and in any case, the struggle is perpetual, so make up your mind what you're going to do.

Osborne Russell
02-27-2015, 11:39 AM
As I thought - you can't validate your attempt to blame the victim.

Blaming the victim of the bad guys is preparation for blaming the victim of the good guys.

Osborne Russell
02-27-2015, 11:51 AM
Isn't this in the eye of the beholder. If one believes you have in some way insulted him, does it really matter if you did or not?

Not to him, but F him if he thinks the insult entitles him to pick up a meat cleaver.

Or, more likely, since he is easily insulted because he has a fragile sense of his own identity because he is ignorant and/or stupid and/or lazy -- the three pillars of cowardice -- he gets his home boys to do his dirty work for him, or at any rate he won't confront all by himself, even with a cleaver. Either way he needs a crowd with cleavers. F him then too. F all of them, foreign and domestic.

TomF
02-27-2015, 11:51 AM
I hate the term "blame the victim." I don't blame eight year olds for being beaten or sexually abused by their dads, or their moms' current boyfriends. I don't blame senior citizens for being bilked out of their life savings by con artists. I don't blame citizens of Fallujah, or Dresden, or Coventry for being incinerated by bombs lobbed by some enemy.

But when I saunter down a dark alley alone at night, and flash a Rolex or wad of bills, I am being stupid. I do know better. I did participate in my own victimization, by handing a "gift" of a situation to any bad guy who might be waiting to take advantage. I am partly to blame if bad things happen next. The degree of my exposure to - and acknowledgement of - the ways I can put myself into danger is proportional to the degree to which I am to blame for participating in such victimization.

Note: the bad guy is always to blame. Providing the opportunity does not equal committing the crime. But victims do indeed participate in their victimizaton. It doesn't mean their bones are any less broken or their money any less stolen, but it does mean they themselves bear some personal accountability for recognizing possible dangers, and keeping themselves and others safe.

Osborne Russell
02-27-2015, 11:58 AM
I ought to be free to walk down dark alleys at night alone too, waggling my full wallet. Young women ought to be free to walk the same alleys alone without fear of a sexual attack. For either of us, those principles and oughts won't keep us safe.

Down the dark alleys of Paris with my chick in a bikini carrying a bucket of Krugerrands, me wearing a yarmulke and a Star of David T shirt, with a cartoon placard of Muhammad in one hand and a shotgun in the other. F them all, dig?


For either of us, those principles and oughts won't keep us safe.

Government exists to enforce them. As in physical force.

bobbys
02-27-2015, 12:05 PM
As I thought - you can't validate your attempt to blame the victim.
.

You nit picked him and was obtuse then when any normal person refuses to communicate with this tactic you claim victory.

LOL

TomF
02-27-2015, 12:07 PM
Down the dark alleys of Paris with my chick in a bikini carrying a bucket of Krugerrands, me wearing a yarmulke and a Star of David T shirt, with a cartoon placard of Muhammad in one hand and a shotgun in the other. F them all, dig?



Government exists to enforce them. As in physical force.I'm all for the principles. But pending the Revolution, or the Unfolding of the Kingdom of Heaven, or the rise of the Reptilian Overlords ... I'm still gonna bear situational awareness in mind. And counsel my young-adult daughter to do the same.

And maintain that once I know that some action or other makes me and mine less safe in certain contexts, I make choices which in effect reflect risk-assessments. I can choose to trust myself to the milk of loving kindness (despite what I know about risk), or I can take responsibility for knowing that my choices can pre-dispose towards or away from certain effects.

George Jung
02-27-2015, 12:09 PM
Sounds like you may benefit from traveling with OR - although the bikini could be a deal breaker

TomF
02-27-2015, 12:12 PM
Sounds like you may benefit from traveling with OR - although the bikini could be a deal breakerThey'd be drawing so much attention that I'd pass un-noticed. :D

Osborne Russell
02-27-2015, 12:22 PM
I'm still gonna bear situational awareness in mind.

As a good soldier must.

Osborne Russell
02-27-2015, 12:39 PM
They'd be drawing so much attention that I'd pass un-noticed. :D

I forgot -- American flag gym shorts and Confederate flag tank top.

Flying Orca
02-27-2015, 12:56 PM
For either of us, those principles and oughts won't keep us safe.

For certain. As you surmise, I speak of principles to be upheld, not excuses to be made.

bobbys
02-27-2015, 12:56 PM
I hate the term "blame the victim." I don't blame eight year olds for being beaten or sexually abused by their dads, or their moms' current boyfriends. I don't blame senior citizens for being bilked out of their life savings by con artists. I don't blame citizens of Fallujah, or Dresden, or Coventry for being incinerated by bombs lobbed by some enemy.

But when I saunter down a dark alley alone at night, and flash a Rolex or wad of bills, I am being stupid. I do know better. I did participate in my own victimization, by handing a "gift" of a situation to any bad guy who might be waiting to take advantage. I am partly to blame if bad things happen next. The degree of my exposure to - and acknowledgement of - the ways I can put myself into danger is proportional to the degree to which I am to blame for participating in such victimization.

Note: the bad guy is always to blame. Providing the opportunity does not equal committing the crime. But victims do indeed participate in their victimizaton. It doesn't mean their bones are any less broken or their money any less stolen, but it does mean they themselves bear some personal accountability for recognizing possible dangers, and keeping themselves and others safe.
.

I can tell you never lived in the hood.

TomF
02-27-2015, 01:07 PM
.

I can tell you never lived in the hood.Eh? Not for about 30 years, but yeah.

More recently I worked for a while with a bunch of kids and their families in "the hood." Kids typically referred because they did break-and-entry, car theft, drug sales etc. Or because their moms' boyfriend(s) beat them silly. One kid - now dead from a stabbing in an alley outside a bar - had borrowed about $500 from his mom's boyfriend (head of the local biker gang) and couldn't pay it back without doing a bunch of crime.

Every one of those kids knew that some things they did could lead them to bad, bad consequences. Other things, not so much. Sometimes they'd make good choices, sometimes bad - but they weren't stupid. What part of that is different where you live?

bobbys
02-27-2015, 02:25 PM
Eh? Not for about 30 years, but yeah.

More recently I worked for a while with a bunch of kids and their families in "the hood." Kids typically referred because they did break-and-entry, car theft, drug sales etc. Or because their moms' boyfriend(s) beat them silly. One kid - now dead from a stabbing in an alley outside a bar - had borrowed about $500 from his mom's boyfriend (head of the local biker gang) and couldn't pay it back without doing a bunch of crime.

Every one of those kids knew that some things they did could lead them to bad, bad consequences. Other things, not so much. Sometimes they'd make good choices, sometimes bad - but they weren't stupid. What part of that is different where you live?
.

If you have to live in the hood you cannot always avoid situations..
I never saw anyone slip into dark alleys with a Rolex flashing cash..

Maybe that's normal where you lived.

Think of this one has to travel through neighborhoods to work, maybe you have to work late or go to a store or Govermeant office..

I lived in Paterson and Passaic and worked in Harlem and every other city..

Its not like you jump on the rose parade road to travel about.

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 02:31 PM
Not to him, but F him if he thinks the insult entitles him to pick up a meat cleaver.

Or, more likely, since he is easily insulted because he has a fragile sense of his own identity because he is ignorant and/or stupid and/or lazy -- the three pillars of cowardice -- he gets his home boys to do his dirty work for him, or at any rate he won't confront all by himself, even with a cleaver. Either way he needs a crowd with cleavers. F him then too. F all of them, foreign and domestic. Real easy for you self righteous ideologues to pontificate, but the guy is just as dead; and if you did the same thing they'd probably cut you up too into righteous pieces.

TomF
02-27-2015, 02:40 PM
So what are you saying in #35, bobbys? That "in the hood" nobody actually gives a crap about trying to minimize risks for themselves or their families? They ignore the whole concept, and it vanishes in a puff of fairy dust? Or that being poor, folks don't have as many choices to do that as other folks might?

Whatever. A good exercise in "situational awareness" is to go to a public place and take a half day to think like a predator. If you needed resources - money, sex, drugs, etc. - where would you position yourself to be able to "take" prey with the least risk to yourself? How would you arrange the environment (broken streetlight, overturned garbage can, etc.) to steer prey towards your strike zone? Maybe even take the time to position yourself there in the pinch-point, and force your "prey" to brush against you knowing that you could predate, if that was your thing.

Right. Now that you've re-entered your normal reality, remember what those signs looked like. And when you see them, go a different direction.

Nothing's perfect prevention, bobbys, but folks can make choices to reduce their likelihood of being victims.

Osborne Russell
02-27-2015, 03:16 PM
Real easy for you self righteous ideologues to pontificate, but the guy is just as dead; and if you did the same thing they'd probably cut you up too into righteous pieces.

Yeah, we gotta do something. Aren't you the one always calling for America to kick butt so we will look strong and the bad guys will fear us? How are we going to do that without insulting and provoking them?

Glen Longino
02-27-2015, 03:28 PM
Real easy for you self righteous ideologues to pontificate, but the guy is just as dead; and if you did the same thing they'd probably cut you up too into righteous pieces.

:)Ha! Look who's pontificating about "self righteous ideologues"!:)
Priceless!

Osborne Russell
02-27-2015, 03:38 PM
And if we insult and provoke them, and as a result they chop us into bits, why what can you say except that we were stupid.

TomF
02-27-2015, 03:43 PM
Meat cleavers don't kill people, people kill people.

skuthorp
02-27-2015, 04:15 PM
Under the extremely thin veneer of civilisation and law this is what the human animal is still like. In some places the veneer does not exist.
The intellectual argument does not apply here, but as a non believer it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong. But to a community where that belief is about all they've got the possibility that it is all smoke and mirrors cannot be contemplated or allowed.

McMike
02-27-2015, 04:17 PM
Murder is always regrettable. Nonetheless it is stupid to malign people and then walk unarmed in their bailiwick.

Is that a threat to those who disagree with you ;)

seanz
02-27-2015, 04:32 PM
Is that a threat to those who disagree with you ;)

It's worse than that, he's also calling the victim stupid for not having a gun.

PeterSibley
02-27-2015, 05:01 PM
Yes, it does. To accept the classification of a certain set of ideas as somehow being special, being privileged, being exempt from critical examination because it might be perceived as insulting, is dangerous to the future of our species... and by extension, to every other species. Some people may not care whether humanity eventually achieves an acceptable measure of civilization - I do.

I agree.

Lets add it to the list . Nuclear weapons and global warming .

Frankly religious fundamentalism is a minor player, it sees random killings, sometimes mass killings but nothing like the potential of the first two and they are not the result of religious fundamentalism but precisely the opposite.

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 06:23 PM
Yeah, we gotta do something. Aren't you the one always calling for America to kick butt so we will look strong and the bad guys will fear us? How are we going to do that without insulting and provoking them? All I said was, don't insult someone and then go socialize with them, especially if they're known to like chopping folks up.

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 06:25 PM
:)Ha! Look who's pontificating about "self righteous ideologues"!:)
Priceless! But I'm sure you'd talk them right out of it, and keep your head.:D

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 06:27 PM
Is that a threat to those who disagree with you ;) We are talking about Muslims on their own turf, Dude.;)|:)

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 06:28 PM
It's worse than that, he's also calling the victim stupid for not having a gun. I see the Orca is outdone on obtuse...:)

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 06:30 PM
I agree.

Lets add it to the list . Nuclear weapons and global warming .

Frankly religious fundamentalism is a minor player, it sees random killings, sometimes mass killings but nothing like the potential of the first two and they are not the result of religious fundamentalism but precisely the opposite. I'm sure that's comforting to the dead engineer.

Flying Orca
02-27-2015, 06:33 PM
I agree.

Lets add it to the list . Nuclear weapons and global warming .

Frankly religious fundamentalism is a minor player, it sees random killings, sometimes mass killings but nothing like the potential of the first two and they are not the result of religious fundamentalism but precisely the opposite.

We're not poles apart on this subject, to be sure, but I think religious nonsense is ultimately more dangerous to our long-term survival than nuclear weapons or global warming, because it directly interferes with humans' ability to think critically, thereby reducing our ability to deal with other challenges (like nuclear weapons or climate change) as they arise.

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 06:37 PM
We're not poles apart on this subject, to be sure, but I think religious nonsense is ultimately more dangerous to our long-term survival than nuclear weapons or global warming, because it directly interferes with humans' ability to think critically, thereby exacerbating our ability to deal with other challenges (like nuclear weapons or climate change) as they arise.Oddly, you are right.

seanz
02-27-2015, 06:42 PM
I see the Orca is outdone on obtuse...:)

That word you use, I'm not sure it means what you think it means.
;)


Also, just next to the "reply with quote" button is the "multi-quote" button....quote a number of posts in one post by using this button and finally the "reply with quote" button on the last post you wish to quote. Much neater.

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 06:48 PM
That word you use, I'm not sure it means what you think it means.
;)


Also, just next to the "reply with quote" button is the "multi-quote" button....quote a number of posts in one post by using this button and finally the "reply with quote" button on the last post you wish to quote. Much neater. Ill modify that to a close synonym, "deliberately dull-witted". https://www.google.com/#q=obtuse

seanz
02-27-2015, 06:57 PM
Ill modify that to a close synonym, "deliberately dull-witted". https://www.google.com/#q=obtuse



I withdraw the comment, my mistake, a thousand apologies, if there's an expert on deliberate dull-wittedness around here, it's you.
:)



Hacked to death for being an atheist. Believe in our invisible friend or die! Which century is this again?

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 07:02 PM
I withdraw the comment, my mistake, a thousand apologies, if there's an expert on deliberate dull-wittedness around here, it's you.
:)



Hacked to death for being an atheist. Believe in our invisible friend or die! Which century is this again? Now there are two of us (experts). I do hope you understand that I do not endorse such things - only view them realistically. Actually the Orca, testy and unpleasant though he/she be, touched on a very important truth: "religious nonsense" is responsible for most (actually all) of the blood shed on the earth.

seanz
02-27-2015, 07:13 PM
Well, I was hoping you didn't endorse such acts of violence. Nice to hear you say it though. :)

I was just returning to the original post. The fact that belief could motivate people to kill a non-believer is deeply disturbing.

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 07:24 PM
Well, I was hoping you didn't endorse such acts of violence. Nice to hear you say it though. :)

I was just returning to the original post. The fact that belief could motivate people to kill a non-believer is deeply disturbing. This business of religion motivating both people and governments to murderous actions has been a theme of mine here for some time. Glad to see even the atheists are on board.|:)

seanz
02-27-2015, 07:44 PM
Atheist? Sir, you assume too much. I am a committed agnostic.

:)

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 07:48 PM
Atheist? Sir, you assume too much. I am a committed agnostic.

:) My apology for unwarranted assumption; there is also room on board for agnostics.:)

PeterSibley
02-27-2015, 08:24 PM
For me agnosticism is the only rational response to the whole scenario. I have no idea and can't see how anyone can.

Dannybb55
02-27-2015, 09:47 PM
Sea levels are moving up.

hanleyclifford
02-27-2015, 09:51 PM
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJW3AfSUngHdB2b-q-X3oK5tNA47Hj_ygz7LmZE5-CCWffuCjdug

Peter Malcolm Jardine
02-27-2015, 10:32 PM
Murder is always regrettable. Nonetheless it is stupid to malign people and then walk unarmed in their bailiwick.

Like New York? Paris? Ottawa?

Osborne Russell
03-01-2015, 12:12 PM
All I said was, don't insult someone and then go socialize with them, especially if they're known to like chopping folks up.

Depends who they are. One clue: they're eager to chop up strangers. There's social value in exposing them. More in putting them down, and even more in the deterrent effect on anyone else who wants to act stupid.

Thus it's not a matter of good judgment as to personal safety, period, as you would like to make it. Why, by the way? People do all kinds of things, the good judgment of which you might question. Bungee jumping. But that forces you to say that your criticism of being openly atheist is the same as you criticism of bungee jumping; which makes bigotry a force of nature.

hanleyclifford
03-01-2015, 03:14 PM
Depends who they are. One clue: they're eager to chop up strangers. There's social value in exposing them. More in putting them down, and even more in the deterrent effect on anyone else who wants to act stupid.

Thus it's not a matter of good judgment as to personal safety, period, as you would like to make it. Why, by the way? People do all kinds of things, the good judgment of which you might question. Bungee jumping. But that forces you to say that your criticism of being openly atheist is the same as you criticism of bungee jumping; which makes bigotry a force of nature. Your false premises lead to absurd conclusions. But you spin it well - are you in journalism or politics?