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Norman Bernstein
02-23-2015, 06:23 PM
I'm having a particularly bad day, myself.... and this item either saddens, or infuriates me... or maybe both.


There is one married lesbian couple in Texas right now. Probably. Last week a judge allowed Sarah Goodfriend and Suzanne Bryant to obtain a marriage license, citing urgency after Sarah was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. The ruling applies only to this one couple. And according to state officials, that's still one couple too many.

Governor Greg Abbott, Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick, and Attorney General Ken Paxton all want to take the license away from the cancer-stricken couple of 31 years who are raising two children. Paxton has declared that the is license void, and the couple is not actually married. But can he actually do that? That's murky. He can try. Attorneys General have a lot of legal authority, but it's kind of unheard of to step in and un-marry a couple, particularly after a judge ordered them married.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 06:27 PM
I can't answer your question! As with much the reps. try to do (wrong) the idiots should PASS on this! It's not only stupid, it's wrong.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 06:27 PM
Tejas. :rolleyes:

With apologies to my friends from that state, the sooner they secede the better.

I may decry their own laws.. but ultimately they may operate as they choose so long as they do not violate Federal law.

But Tejas' elected representatives to Washington, D.C. are harming the greater U.S.A.

Ian McColgin
02-23-2015, 06:29 PM
Texas compassion.

Peerie Maa
02-23-2015, 06:32 PM
Because they give too much credence to some oft translated transcript of an oral mythology made up by some nomads out of their heads on the smoke of sheep dung fires?

CK 17
02-23-2015, 06:34 PM
I'm having a particularly bad day, myself.... and this item either saddens, or infuriates me... or maybe both.
They think their doing gods work.​

TomF
02-23-2015, 06:37 PM
Not my God's.

delecta
02-23-2015, 06:42 PM
How does being married in the eyes of Texas make a difference? Or is this all about money?

Norman Bernstein
02-23-2015, 06:43 PM
How does being married in the eyes of Texas make a difference? Or is this all about money?

It might well be, if the person dying is unable to leave assets to her partner without excessive taxation, which would be needed to raise the children.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 06:46 PM
True, perhaps health insurance; hospitals ( family visits only type rules) Wills!

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 06:48 PM
How does being married in the eyes of Texas make a difference? Or is this all about money?
It might well be, if the person dying is unable to leave assets to her partner without excessive taxation, which would be needed to raise the children.Guys like delecta completely fail to understand such issues.

They simply despise gays because either their religion or culture has convinced them homosexuals are dirty deviants who will fry in Hell.

John Smith
02-23-2015, 06:53 PM
I can't answer your question! As with much the reps. try to do (wrong) the idiots should PASS on this! It's not only stupid, it's wrong.

I can: Gay marriage violates their religious beliefs.

John Smith
02-23-2015, 06:54 PM
Not my God's.

No, their God's. And, God, apparently doesn't mind.

John Smith
02-23-2015, 06:56 PM
How does being married in the eyes of Texas make a difference? Or is this all about money?

Some is about money. Some is about next of kin rights that come with marriage.

How does their getting married make a difference? Good question. If it makes no difference why is anyone's business but the couple's?

Captain Intrepid
02-23-2015, 06:57 PM
Being cruel for petty political ends has a long ignoble history.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Wallace_at_University_of_Alabama_edit2.jpg/640px-Wallace_at_University_of_Alabama_edit2.jpg

Michael D. Storey
02-23-2015, 06:58 PM
Because they give too much credence to some oft translated transcript of an oral mythology made up by some nomads out of their heads on the smoke of sheep dung fires?

Did you ever write lyrics for Frank Zappa?

Michael D. Storey
02-23-2015, 07:04 PM
Some is about money. Some is about next of kin rights that come with marriage.

How does their getting married make a difference? Good question. If it makes no difference why is anyone's business but the couple's?

Well, if in this case, if both women are parents of the children, the estate can pass to the children, and if they are minors, the surviving spouse would have control of the estate.

The illness aside, this is a terrible thing to do. I would like to know what they would do if they woke one morning to find their daughters gay and anxious to marry.

Happens alla time.

delecta
02-23-2015, 07:04 PM
[/COLOR]Guys like delecta completely fail to understand such issues.

They simply despise gays because either their religion or culture has convinced them homosexuals are dirty deviants who will fry in Hell.

Your post offers nothing to this discussion, calling me out as anti gay is not only rude but incorrect.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 07:10 PM
Your post offers nothing to this discussion, calling me out as anti gay is not only rude but incorrect.
You posted:


How does being married in the eyes of Texas make a difference? Or is this all about money?
Norm Bernstein replied:


It might well be, if the person dying is unable to leave assets to her partner without excessive taxation, which would be needed to raise the children.
And I added:


Guys like delecta completely fail to understand such issues.
Now... maybe I was wrong to speculate that you personally despise gays.

Maybe you are actually pro-gay even though you do not believe they deserve equal protection under the law (however bizarre that would be).

If so, my apology.
.

RonW
02-23-2015, 07:12 PM
Not my God's.

Did your god say go forth and be fruitful ?

Captain Intrepid
02-23-2015, 07:15 PM
Did your god say go forth and be fruitful ?

He also said to take care of the Earth as stewards. Among other things that means we need to practice population control.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 07:15 PM
I don't think God would tell two gays/lesbians that even if he didn't take biology, Ron!

delecta
02-23-2015, 07:17 PM
You posted:

even though you do not believe they deserve equal protection under the law.

If so, my apology.

So where did I state they don't deserve equal protection under the law?

You are doing quite a poor job speaking for me this evening, I would say another apology is in order and then I would advise you to stop speaking for me.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 07:19 PM
Did your god say go forth and be fruitful ?
I presume you oppose marriage between men and a post-menapausal women? And between infertile couples?

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 07:23 PM
You are doing quite a poor job speaking for me this evening, I would say another apology is in order and then I would advise you to stop speaking for me.I haven't seen you contribute anything substantive to this thread beyond:


How does being married in the eyes of Texas make a difference? Or is this all about money?
If you don't want others to misinterpret your meaning by all means explain your meaning yourself and illuminate us all.

The floor is yours.

sleek
02-23-2015, 07:25 PM
I am not a homosexual. I dont understand homosexuals. I am of a religion where it is forbidden.

However ( this is a big one ) if the purpose of marriage is for financial reasons, legal reasons, etc, then the state is discriminating based on gender. Its wrong. Married or not will make no difference in their very confusing to me bedroom antics. I have a really good friend, like a brother to me and the closest thing I have to family ( aside from my wife and son ) for many miles, states even. If I didnt have my wife and son, id probably be ( and have in the past ) living with him. For legal benefits and monetary, marriage would make sense. We sure as hell wouldnt share a bed but filling under one household would be beneficial.

The state has its right. But I think its time to completely redefine marriage or completely abolish it. One or the other because regardless how you look at it, marriage aint what it used to be. Its no longer a permission card to have sex.

Norman Bernstein
02-23-2015, 07:25 PM
Did your god say go forth and be fruitful ?

I believe that back when he said it, the Earth supported perhaps a few million people.

What God did NOT say was 'Go forth and be fruitful, and keep it up until billions are starving and dying of communicable diseases, and life becomes a state of continuous war and pestilence."

Nope, I don't think he said THAT.

McMike
02-23-2015, 07:26 PM
Did your god say go forth and be fruitful ?

Did yours?

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 07:28 PM
I believe that back when he said it, the Earth supported perhaps a few million people.
Back when WHO said it?

Precisely: Back when WHO wrote it?

Norman Bernstein
02-23-2015, 07:29 PM
Back when WHO said it?

God, right? It's in the Bible, so that dates it back at least 2,000 years, right?

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 07:31 PM
Don't get me wrong, Norm. I am as fond of the Torah's creation myth as the next gentile. ;)

Norman Bernstein
02-23-2015, 07:34 PM
Don't get me wrong, Norm. I am as fond of the Torah's creation myth as the next gentile. ;)

I can talk comfortably about it, primarily, because I have never believed it. When treated as fiction and myth, the scriptures are actually quite interesting. It's only frightening when you realize that some people believe it to be true and inerrant.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 07:35 PM
Amen. Y>

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 07:36 PM
yes, a little unsettling, eh Norm?;)
More than unsettling. Demonstratively incorrect in many details.

The Torah creation myth fairs poorly versus scientific discovery.

Of course, in your ideology the supernatural world ALWAYS trumps the realities of the natural world.

Norman Bernstein
02-23-2015, 07:39 PM
yes, a little unsettling, eh Norm?;)

Not unsettling at all. People are entitled to believe what they want to believe, and there are not only mainstream beliefs, but millions of personal beliefs, which no doubt make their believers happy...somehow.

I don't mind a bit... until THEIR beliefs start intruding into MY life....at which point I get pretty testy.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 07:41 PM
I'm sure you'll get the opportunity to do that demonstration.
Read a biology textbook. Get back to us.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 07:45 PM
Pax vobiscum.
Et cum spiritu tuo.

Do you want to continue reciting the Latin Mass? I used to have it memorized.

By the way, you may use the latin word "Dominus" rather than "pax." "Dominus" means "master" or "lord." Those are words that refer to Jesus. I'm sure Yahweh would not object.
.

CWSmith
02-23-2015, 07:47 PM
Norman, you need to ask who is cruel and who is just ignorant? There are still many people who suffer from fears and stereotypes. They mean well. They are just ignorant. They won't change their mind until more people around them give them permission to do so. I rather suspect the politicians are better informed and prey on the ignorance of voters. These are the cruel people and their motivation is money and power.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
02-23-2015, 07:50 PM
Because they give too much credence to some oft translated transcript of an oral mythology made up by some nomads out of their heads on the smoke of sheep dung fires?


Well, Here is the definitive answer on this question. Well done.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
02-23-2015, 07:51 PM
Norman, you need to ask who is cruel and who is just ignorant? There are still many people who suffer from fears and stereotypes. They mean well. They are just ignorant. They won't change their mind until more people around them give them permission to do so. I rather suspect the politicians are better informed and prey on the ignorance of voters. These are the cruel people and their motivation is money and power.


Ignorance is no excuse for a lack of conscience.

CWSmith
02-23-2015, 07:55 PM
Ignorance is no excuse for a lack of conscience.

I think you misunderstand many of these people. The ignorant think they are doing the right thing. Most likely, the gays in their life are still closeted. They are afraid of what hey don/t know.

Norman Bernstein
02-23-2015, 08:02 PM
Ignorance is no excuse for a lack of conscience.

Well said. Sorry, but ignorance just doesn't cut it, as an excuse. Anyone who doesn't have some compassion for this couple fails my test for what constitutes a human being.

leikec
02-23-2015, 08:02 PM
Let's understand the timeline here. The 5 year survival rate average for late stage ovarian cancer is about 25%. For a recurrent platinum-resistant or persistent cancer patient those numbers nosedive--the median survival rate is 12-18 months.

Jeff C

RonW
02-23-2015, 08:02 PM
Tom MOntgomery --
The Torah creation myth fairs poorly versus scientific discovery.

Uhh...what scientific discovery are you referring to ?

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 08:03 PM
Read a biology textbook. Then read a geology textbook. Then get back to us.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 08:03 PM
Did your god say go forth and be fruitful ?Sometimes I think God sayth too much. He should sit back and listen once in a while!

Peter Malcolm Jardine
02-23-2015, 08:11 PM
God didn't say anything to me, because I don't have any voices in my head.

TomF
02-23-2015, 08:13 PM
God didn't say anything to me, because I don't have any voices in my head.A shame, that.

RonW
02-23-2015, 08:31 PM
A shame, that.

Are you saying those that are with god hear voices ?

And maybe you could explain to some of us less informed how some who claim to be good christians turn their heads when it comes to homosexuality and choose evolution over creation ?? Can you clear this up for us ?

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 08:35 PM
Are you saying those that are with god hear voices?Evidently you haven't followed TomF closely.


And maybe you could explain to some of us less informed how some who claim to be good christians turn their heads when it comes to homosexuality and choose evolution over creation ?? Can you clear this up for us ?I take it you are not a Roman Catholic Christian?

Are Roman Catholics not Christian in your opinion because the RC Church teaches that there is no incompatibility between the science of evolution and Divine revelation?

And can you cite a New Testament Gospel passage where Jesus condemns homosexuality?
.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 08:39 PM
Are you saying those that are with god hear voices ?

And maybe you could explain to some of us less informed how some who claim to be good christians turn their heads when it comes to homosexuality and choose evolution over creation ?? Can you clear this up for us ?Explain this Ron. I guess God told them they can be homosexual!

10Rams

http://i0.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/373484610_7e0380a2cc_z.jpg?zoom=2&resize=598%2C449
We are often told to count sheep when we want to fall asleep, but the natural tendencies of rams actually might keep scientists up at night. Domestic rams are statistically among the most extensively gay mammals in existence (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3008-homosexuality-is-biological-suggests-gay-sheep-study.html). Scientific studies have shown that up to an incredible eight percent (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302211000021) of male sheep may form exclusively male-to-male pair bonds, forsaking all contact with the female ewes.
These same sex couples do not mate, but they act as a couple in every other way throughout their lives. The homosexual herds stand out as an example of diverse relationship status among animals—but of course, they’re less than popular among farmers, who seek to breed as many sheep as possible.



9Laysan Albatrosses


http://i0.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/VanderWerf-same-sex-animals-021.jpg?zoom=2&resize=598%2C398
In 2007, scientists studying the laysan albatrosses (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2610150/) of Oahu noticed that sixty percent of birds present were female, and that thirty-one percent of all the albatross pairs were lesbian (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/7144393/Lesbian-albatrosses-to-raise-chick.html). These pairs of female birds exhibit all the behaviors of close pair bonding, and engage in nesting, bill kissing, and a variety of other albatross breeding behaviors.
Laysan albatrosses are normally highly defensive when they sense intruders— indicating that the acceptance of another female is true pair bonding. The same-sex partnerships may last as long as traditional pairs—in one case, a whopping nineteen years. In New Zealand, a same-sex pair of even larger royal albatrosses were recently found tending a nest together, suggesting that the phenomenon may be widespread.
8Bottlenose Dolphins


http://i1.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/22D087F5904CBD255DE7B3650A3A0_h316_w628_m5_cDjCaLy fc.jpg?zoom=2&resize=598%2C301
Dolphins have a position on the top tier of animal intelligence, and are comparable to both chimpanzees and humans in cognitive and social abilities. Great diversity exists in dolphin societies as well, and numerous same-sex liaisons (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/dolphins-bisexuality-homosexuality-study-_n_1388330.html) have been identified.
In one incredible case, a pair of gay dolphins enjoyed a seventeen year relationship, while researchers identified a whole pod of dolphins (http://now.msn.com/researchers-find-bisexual-and-exclusively-gay-dolphins)—composed entirely of males—whose members were certainly not lacking in romantic experiences. It has become clear that dolphin relationships are extremely strong, regardless of the specific orientation of the marine mammals involved. Many other dolphins have been found to be bisexual, enjoying passionate contact among their own sex as well as the opposite.
7Bonobos


http://i1.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Bonobo-Apes-A-male-bonobo-007.jpg?zoom=2&resize=600%2C400
Bonobos, which resemble miniature chimpanzees, are not only among the world’s most intelligent animals but are in fact humanity’s closest relative. Living in highly social colonies, bonobos are more good-natured compared to their frequently violent chimpanzee relatives. They’re famous for using a language of love, rather than a language of aggression, to resolve problems and communicate with each other.
Since many of the conflicts occur between two males or between two females, homosexual bonding is a frequent occurrence (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal_2.html) among these amorous apes. Sexual encounters may serve to increase social standing (http://io9.com/5889691/female-bonobos-have-gay-sex-to-improve-their-social-status) among females—but it also occurs among males, who may take a more “play fight”-based approach. Bonobos are critically endangered, and they require the utmost effort from conservationists to keep them in the wild.
6Cock of the Rock


http://i1.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Nov-2-Andean-Cock-of-the-Rock.jpg?zoom=2&resize=598%2C399
Andean “cock of the rock” are spectacular forest songbirds with an extremely dramatic appearance, combining brilliant orange with a huge crest. Natural selection has led to some rather outlandish feather adornments. Remarkably, up to forty percent of males engage in same sex activity.
Unlike the seabirds previously discussed, only the male birds of this species seek homosexual encounters. It is possible that the gay behavior stems from high population densities, and extensive competition for females. Same sex encounters also satisfy the bird’s desire for opportunities to express their promiscuous and highly developed mating drive, thereby increasing social stability among the normally edgy birds.


5African Lions


http://i0.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Screen-Shot-2013-04-20-at-6.37.57-PM.jpg?zoom=2&resize=600%2C383
African lions are frequently invoked as symbols of traditional rulership, especially in patriarchal societies which involve female harems. A certain percentage of male African lions, however, forsake the available females in order to form their own same-sex group gatherings.
Male lions have been documented (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8gttC6P3bE) mounting other males, and engaging in a variety of behaviors normally reserved for single pairs of opposite-sex couples. Though many other animal societies are structured in a way that might occasionally favor same-gender pairing, the reason for male lion associations is unknown. Lions have some of the strongest sex drives of any cat species, meaning that the encounters are probably more . . . purposeful than same sex interactions among birds or rams.
4Waterfowl and Penguins

RonW
02-23-2015, 08:42 PM
Evidently you haven't followed TomF closely.

I take it you are not a Roman Catholic Christian?

Are Roman Catholics not Christian in your opinion because the RCC teaches that there is no incompatibility between the science of evolution and Divine revelation?

And can you cite a New Testament Gospel that condemns homosexuality?

So you are saying tomf is a roman catholic christian ?? is that it ??

And these romans believe in evolution ? or either? your choice ?

Why a new testament, what is wrong with old testament ? Is it outdated ? Or have been proven to be false prophecy ?

Keith Wilson
02-23-2015, 08:45 PM
In this particular case, the cruelty is because people imagine that the prejudices and customs of their tribe are endorsed by God. Convenient, isn't it?

FWIW, along with the Catholics, pretty much every mainline Protestant denomination has no trouble with evolution at all.


Why a new testament, what is wrong with old testament ? Well, maybe because the God it describes sometimes acts like a sadistic psychopath, and his followers not much better? Just a thought.

Chip-skiff
02-23-2015, 08:45 PM
Norman, you need to ask who is cruel and who is just ignorant? There are still many people who suffer from fears and stereotypes. They mean well. They are just ignorant. They won't change their mind until more people around them give them permission to do so. I rather suspect the politicians are better informed and prey on the ignorance of voters. These are the cruel people and their motivation is money and power.

They do not mean well. They mean to punish all those who are not in agreement with their superstitious nonsense.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 08:47 PM
Since Christian theology is consistent across all sects that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the Mosaic law and so that Law is no longer applicable, I have always been puzzled by the fascination of Christian fundis with the Book of Leviticus.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 08:48 PM
HEY RON! Where in the bible does it say anything about homosexuals in animals!
4Waterfowl and Penguins

http://i1.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/gaybirds.jpg?zoom=2&resize=600%2C346
Homosexual behavior (http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/why-its-ok-for-birds-to-be-gay) has been documented in wild Australian black swans, which sometimes form threesomes involving two males as they establish a nest site. Incredibly, such arrangements involving two males actually led to higher breeding success, due to the effectiveness of the males in defending the nest site from predators.
Additionally, two male penguins made headlines (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2012/11/08/world_first_as_gay_king_penguins_become_fathers.ht ml) after they paired up in a zoo, and were given an egg which they successfully raised. Prior to being given an egg of their own, the gay penguins attempted to steal eggs from straight penguin couples.
Ornithologists exploring the phenomenon have observed that, generally speaking, male bird pairs form among the more promiscuous songbird species, while female pairs form among monogamous species. While such behavior was naturally established in some bird species, scientific research has indicated that increased rates of same sex pairing among the South American ibis may be the result of mercury pollution from mining operations, which changes sex hormones.
3Western Gulls


http://i1.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Western-Gull-San-Francisco-Focus-on-Trevor-950x6331-e1366440924577.jpg?zoom=2&resize=600%2C400 (http://i1.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Western-Gull-San-Francisco-Focus-on-Trevor-950x6331-e1366440924577.jpg)
Western gulls resemble the laysan albatross, but they’re actually more closely related to puffins. Convergent evolution has given them a resemblance to the huge albatrosses, along with a similar mating system—again sometimes involving two females. The more expressive gull pairs may even engage in mounting behaviors.
Scientific expeditions to California’s Channel Islands revealed that no less than fourteen percent of gull pairs were partners in female-female couples (http://articles.latimes.com/1993-06-20/local/me-5238_1_channel-island). This diversity in the colonies was first noticed when some nests were found to contain surprisingly large numbers of eggs. Some of these eggs were even fertilized, due to “on the side” encounters with male gulls.
2Giraffes


http://i0.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/giraffe_couple.jpg?zoom=2&resize=600%2C375
Young male giraffes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraffe), prior to mating with a female, sometimes engage in same-sex encounters and short term alliances. Activities may include tongue kissing, neck massaging and “hugs,” as well as full-body contact and nuzzling. Scientists theorize that the purpose of the same-gender interactions is to develop a familiarity with the mating techniques before using them to court the appropriate female giraffe. In the small-town community which is the giraffe herd, it seems that the idea is to get it right with the girls from the word go—by checking out some of the guys, first.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 08:50 PM
So you are saying tomf is a roman catholic christian ?? is that it ??No. :rolleyes:


And these romans believe in evolution ? or either? your choice ?The Roman Catholic Church sees no incompatibility between modern science and Divine revelation.


Why a new testament, what is wrong with old testament ? Is it outdated ? Or have been proven to be false prophecy ?You are not up on Christian theology, are you?

Do you strictly adhere to Mosaic Law? If not, why not? Is the Old Testament outdated?

RonW
02-23-2015, 08:52 PM
S.V.Arlie --
HEY RON! Where in the bible does it say anything about homosexuals in animals!

Beats me, and I could care less....Did you mommy or daddy ever set you down and tell you about the birds and bees, and the difference between animals and humans.?

Here is a little hint, look for fur, feathers, and fins and that might help you to distinguish the difference ...I hope this helps..

sleek
02-23-2015, 08:56 PM
Ri gues according to some, we are nothing but mammals, so we should do it like the do o the discovery channel. Others feel as if we are the higher species and shouldn't engage in sniffing earchothers butt, throwing poop, licking anus, eating bugs and lice off eachother, and dragging our butt across our best friends new carpet.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 08:57 PM
Actually they probably did! I suspect you learned in the school yard playing doctor! You should care about what the bible says RONNIE, as you use it all the time to justify whatever stupid thing you post. Or are you just selective about Parts of the bible you agree with and disregard the rest! What a hypocrite!

RonW
02-23-2015, 09:00 PM
Norman says in post # 46 ..
Anyone who doesn't have some compassion for this couple fails my test for what constitutes a human being.

What does compassion has to do with 2 lesbians being granted a marriage license just because (unfortunately ) one has cancer.

I say this judge has no authority to overwrite state law, regardless of what his emotional feelings are. Judges do not have the authority to write laws or create laws, but only the ability to enforce existing laws, Do you really want judges to have this ability ? Better think twice about that one..And the sad stories don't work..

ljb5
02-23-2015, 09:02 PM
How does being married in the eyes of Texas make a difference? Or is this all about money?

Why do straight people get married?

How come nobody demands that they justify their desire to get married?

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 09:05 PM
Norman says in post # 46 ..

What does compassion has to do with 2 lesbians being granted a marriage license just because (unfortunately ) one has cancer.

I say this judge has no authority to overwrite state law, regardless of what his emotional feelings are. Judges do not have the authority to write laws or create laws, but only the ability to enforce existing laws, Do you really want judges to have this ability ? Better think twice about that one..And the sad stories don't work..You are beyond contempt Ron for that statement/question.Firstly they were given a lic.One partner was DYING, the idiots want to revoke it! That's WHERE the compassion comes in. You may need GPS to find "compassion" in your books.

ljb5
02-23-2015, 09:05 PM
I say this judge has no authority to overwrite state law, regardless of what his emotional feelings are. Judges do not have the authority to write laws or create laws, but only the ability to enforce existing laws, Do you really want judges to have this ability ? Better think twice about that one..And the sad stories don't work..

Don't judges also have the authority to rule certain laws or actions unconstitutional?

Just a couple of weeks ago, you told me that was their only authority.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:05 PM
I invited delecta to expand upon his post (since he felt it had been misinterpreted).

The result has been the sound of crickets.

Keith Wilson
02-23-2015, 09:07 PM
"Pardon him, Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:09 PM
So RonW...

Is the Old Testament out of date or do you strictly adhere to the Mosaic Law?

TomF
02-23-2015, 09:10 PM
Man. A guy steps away from the website for just a little while, and look what happens.

Ron, were you actually interested in the topic, I might chat with you about it . We both know, though, that your objective in mentioning me really has little to do with that, eh?

cheers!

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:11 PM
Cite the New Testament gospel passages. Where does Jesus Christ condemn homosexuality?

Keith Wilson
02-23-2015, 09:13 PM
It is incompatible with Christianity.It is incompatible with you YOUR version of Christianity. There are quite a few Christian denominations that now teach differently, and are performing same-sex weddings. You will, of course, say they've got it wrong. They will no doubt return the favor.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:14 PM
"Pardon him, Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."
Jumpin' Jehoshaphat, Keith!

That is far too obscure a literary reference for our right-wingnut brethren.

TomF
02-23-2015, 09:14 PM
Didja know that Bishop John Spong mused in print that perhaps, possibly, maybe St. Paul's mysterious "thorn in the flesh" coulda been homosexuality? :D

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:16 PM
Saul of Tarsus. Big freaking deal. :rolleyes:

Cite Jesus Christ.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:17 PM
Saul of Tarsus was an odd one all right.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:17 PM
Christians are unable to cite Jesus Christ condemning homosexuality.

They rely upon an oddball who never met Jesus and the Old Testament

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 09:18 PM
Homosexuality is also condemned in the Greek Scriptures. It is incompatible with Christianity.Too bad the animals I mentioned can't read! God should have corrected those mistakes when he created them. Right Ron! Does God make mistakes?:)

TomF
02-23-2015, 09:19 PM
That would be one of St. Paul's passages which gave Bishop Spong pause. Nowhere else is there anything like this statement of "clarity," in either Hebrew scripture or the Gospels. We hear nothing whatever about homosexuality from Jesus, for instance - either in the synoptic Gospels or in John.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 09:20 PM
Did he partake of a little Pyote' by chance! Ah, perhaps a little weed!:)

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:22 PM
That is a possibility, but has no scriptural support; in any case, Paul obviously got control of whatever thorn he had because Jehovah used him right to the end.He sure did!

Jesus said, "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

Saul did not read that Gospel. Guess why? It was written after Saul crossed over the bar.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:23 PM
As every good Catholic knows, Paul had full authority under inspiration to speak for both Jesus and Yahweh.
I never claimed to be a "good" Catholic.

Keith Wilson
02-23-2015, 09:23 PM
You are the one in self deception here, Keith.No, sir. I stated the fact that several Christian denominations now perform same-sex weddings. These includes the Episcopals, the ELCA, the UCC, the Presbyterians, the Society of Friends, and several others. This is not "self-delusion". You may disagree about whether they should, but it is a fact.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 09:24 PM
You must be in the Cherry (picking) Denomination.You mean you DON'T "Cherry Pick"?

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:25 PM
What? A Catholic who says Paul never meet Jesus?
You think Saul of Tarsus met the actual flesh-and-blood Jesus of Nazareth?

Saul of Tarsus certainly never heard Jesus teach. And the Gospels recording Jesus' words and teaching were written after Saul was gone from the scene.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:27 PM
If you're going to play that game, you should cite chapter and verse.
Are you claiming this passage was made up by me? Do you seriously think I cannot cite the chapter and verse?*

I am not into playing games. But maybe you are?



*Luke 16:17

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 09:27 PM
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608028844012865712&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

TomF
02-23-2015, 09:27 PM
...in any case, Paul obviously got control of whatever thorn he had because Jehovah used him right to the end.With the greatest of respect, I can easily think of quite a number of gay and lesbian Christians about whom I'd say the same. Including the chaplain who was instrumental in teaching me about prayer, and helping me through a particularly horrible time of my life.

I was unaware of his sexual orientation till some years later - it was entirely irrelevant to the gift he gave me.

RonW
02-23-2015, 09:28 PM
Don't judges also have the authority to rule certain laws or actions unconstitutional?

Religious viewpoints are one thing but there is also the legal viewpoint. LBJ brings up a good view point on judges ruling on constitutionality.

And yes judges can set aside prosecution of a defendant when their rights are being violated, but that doesn't mean the judge can rewrite the law to create a different effect, such as granting marriage license.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:31 PM
Just as you believe Yahweh is with you.

We may disagree... but your belief is a fact.

TomF
02-23-2015, 09:31 PM
You must be in the Cherry (picking) Denomination.
No sir. All my life has been spent in one or other of the two largest protestant denominations in Canada - and my theological education was at an ecumenical school which, at the time, was home to students from...let's see...I think 6 or 8 mainline denominations (Canadian and American), including lay Catholic students, and a Jewish rabbi as one of the professors.

RonW
02-23-2015, 09:34 PM
No sir. All my life has been spent in one or other of the two largest protestant denominations in Canada - and my theological education was at an ecumenical school which, at the time, was home to students from...let's see...I think 6 or 8 mainline denominations (Canadian and American), including lay Catholic students, and a Jewish rabbi as one of the professors.

I thought jewish rabbis teach that homosexuality is a sin...........is that so ?

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:35 PM
TomF...

Anyone who discounts the teaching of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania is going to be accused of cherry-picking by hanleyclifford and his tribe.

Gerarddm
02-23-2015, 09:36 PM
Gotta love those 'compassionate conservatives'. Bah. :-(

Keith Wilson
02-23-2015, 09:36 PM
The Nazis thought God was with them. You may disagree about that; but it was a fact.Wow. Same sex marriage is like the Nazis? Godwin's law rears it's ugly head! :D

But sure. So did Tomas de Torquemada, Innocent III, Charles Russell, Joseph Rutherford, and many, many other people over the centuries. So do those in the various Christian churches who decided that same-sex marriage was the right thing to do. So do those who've decided it's not. So do you. You can't all be right.


. . . "homosexual" Christian is a contradiction in terms.YOUR version of Christianity. Outside your particular sect, this is obviously false.


I'm sure a lot of "good people" perished in the Flood - Ah, the old myths of the sadistic psychopathic deity again.


I thought jewish rabbis teach that homosexuality is a sin...........is that so ?Orthodox Judaism only. Reform and most Conservative Rabbis perform same-sex weddings.

PeterSibley
02-23-2015, 09:38 PM
Homosexuality is also condemned in the Greek Scriptures. It is incompatible with Christianity.

There are just so many things in Leviticus that just don't quite fit with Christianity these days ... a major rethink is necessary !


Thankyou for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I havelearned a great deal from your show, and I try to share thatknowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defendthe homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind himthat Leviticus18:22 clearlystates it to be an abomination. End of debate.

Ido need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specificlaws and how to best follow them.

a)When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates apleasing odor for the Lord (Lev1:9). Theproblem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them.Should I smite them?

b)I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctionedin Exodus21:7. Inthis day and age, what do you think would be a fair price forher?

c)I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in herperiod of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev15:19-24). Theproblem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women takeoffense.

d)Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male andfemale, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. Afriend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but notCanadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e)I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus35:2 clearlystates he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill himmyself?

f)A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is anAbomination (Lev11:10), itis a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can yousettle this?

g)Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have adefect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Doesmy vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h)Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hairaround their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev19:27. Howshould they die?

i)I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes meunclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j)My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two differentcrops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made oftwo different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tendsto curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go toall the trouble of getting the whole town together to stonethem? (Lev24:10-16) Couldn'twe just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do withpeople who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

Iknow you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident youcan help.

Thankyou again for reminding us that God's word is eternal andunchanging.

Yourdevoted disciple and adoring fan.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:38 PM
"homosexual" Christian is a contradiction in terms.
BAH! :mad:

Even the staid old Roman Catholic Church teaches that homosexual orientation is not sinful... only homosexual behavior. And all sins may be forgiven.

TomF
02-23-2015, 09:39 PM
Fair enough - "by their fruits" and all that.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 09:39 PM
OKAY last year a US judge overturned a ban on same sex marriages

A U.S. district judge in Texas last year ruled the state's ban on gay marriage unconstitutional because it denied same-sex couples equal protection under the law. Enforcement of the decision is on hold pending an appeal.

OKAY! IF TEX> has a ban on this, Which authority does one follow?

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 09:41 PM
Walking a very fine line!

TomF
02-23-2015, 09:45 PM
Keep it simple. The Bible is correct (and very clear on the matter).we disagree on interpretation, and on the manner of authority to be given to the passages you'd cite.

Keith Wilson
02-23-2015, 09:45 PM
Keep it simple. The Bible is correct (and very clear on the matter).So you claim. Some Christians agree with you. Some do not.

PeterSibley
02-23-2015, 09:51 PM
As will be noted from post 108 drawing anything but amusement from Leviticus is a bridge too far .

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 09:53 PM
Actually, you are right.
Thank you.

Here is my problem with you... and it is not personal as I think you are a nice man and that you I would get along just fine in person...

You are in the habit of making declarative statements such as, "homosexual" Christian is a contradiction in terms." Rather than prefacing with "I think" or "my church teaches" or "my interpretation of scripture leads me to believe."

I think most of us find this to be off-putting and provocative in a way you may not intend.

Religious debate is sensitive as it is.

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 09:53 PM
So, if these bibles are so clear, why do we have all the preachers on television reading chapter and verse and than explaining what they meant? Their interpretation! There must be 15-20 channels dedicated to ths!

skuthorp
02-23-2015, 10:04 PM
"Why are people so incredibly cruel?"
Human nature, it's what we are. A few thousand years of vaguely civilised behaviour an that mostly in the last 150 is a thin veneer on the evolved bipedal, tribal ape beneath.
Nothing to do with the god of any of the unauthorised franchises in current fashion.

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 10:05 PM
I was baptized, confirmed, and educated in the Roman Catholic Church. But I also grew up watching Rex Humbard and then Ernest Angley on T.V.

Rex's "Cathedral of Tomorrow" in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio was sold to Angley and Ernest then broadcasted his show from that site which he called, "Grace Cathedral... the most beautiful cathedral in all the world!" Ernest had a distinctively syrupy, sing-song, idiosyncratic, southern accent.

The old joke was that Ernest would every week introduce the musical group, "The Durondies who will now perform 'Why Me, Lord?'*"


* Composed by Kris Kristofferson
.

Glen Longino
02-23-2015, 10:08 PM
Thank you.

Here is my problem with you... and it is not personal as I think you are a nice man and that you I would get along just fine in person...

You are in the habit of making declarative statements such as, "homosexual" Christian is a contradiction in terms." Rather than prefacing with "I think" or "my church teaches" or "my interpretation of scripture leads me to believe."

I think most of us find this to be off-putting and provocative in a way you may not intend.

Religious debate is sensitive as it is.

It has become clear to me that Hanley's interest in religion is political and manipulative, not spiritual. I have no further interest in listening to the man preach.

RonW
02-23-2015, 10:09 PM
I was baptized, confirmed, and educated in the Roman Catholic Church. But I also grew up watching Rex Humbard and then Ernest Angley on T.V.

Rex's "Cathedral of Tomorrow" in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio was sold to Angley and Ernest then broadcasted his show from that site which he called, "Grace Cathedral... the most beautiful cathedral in all the world!"

The old joke was that Ernest would every week introduce the musical group, "The Durondies who will now perform 'Why Me, Lord?'"

Did you join in and sing along ?

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 10:11 PM
I never went to church much. I was baptized epis. Never needed to pray in a church, I could do that in the great outdoors which God built long before any churches. In fact, he built all sorts of churches for catholics, protestants, jews, Baptists, Jahovah's Witnesses and even muslims. He didn't care!

RonW
02-23-2015, 10:11 PM
Religious hucksterism is big business.

Yea but from post # 122 part of your flock is straying...

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 10:12 PM
Religious hucksterism is big business.Exactly! $$$$$$$$$!

Tom Montgomery
02-23-2015, 10:13 PM
Did you join in and sing along ?
You bet!

My college classmates and I tuned in every week.

Did I forget to mention Angley was a faith healer and that healings were a featured part of every show?

We would take a swig every time Ernest shouted, "HEALLLL!"

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 10:13 PM
Yea but from post # 122 part of your flock is straying...Not far but, sheep often stray!

S.V. Airlie
02-23-2015, 10:15 PM
You bet!

My college classmates and I tuned in every week.

Did I forget to mention Angley was a faith healer and that healing were a featured part of every show?

We would take a swig every time Ernest shouted, "HEALLLL!"I was always amazed that preachers can lay hands on a person and he could fall flat on his back!

PeterSibley
02-23-2015, 10:28 PM
I never went to church much. I was baptized epis. Never needed to pray in a church, I could do that in the great outdoors which God built long before any churches. In fact, he built all sorts of churches for catholics, protestants, jews, Baptists, Jahovah's Witnesses and even muslims. He didn't care!

Yep, if there is a god all the arguments are about brand differentiation and if you ask, everyone is right !

There is a certain logical dichotomy there.

PeterSibley
02-23-2015, 10:30 PM
We had Garner Ted on the radio here and my group of friends all thought it was a wonderful parody, we were astonished to discover some people took it seriously !

Glen Longino
02-23-2015, 10:57 PM
We had Garner Ted on the radio here and my group of friends all thought it was a wonderful parody, we were astonished to discover some people took it seriously !

Back in the 50s my brothers and I would tune in the radio to a wall-eyed rabid evangelist named J. Charles Jessup.
He would spew BS for 2 minutes without taking a breath, then he would suck air loudly and wheezenly over the airway for 2 minutes.
We would ignore what he was saying and then fall out on the floor laughing when he began sucking air.

Dangit, I just googled J Charles Jessup, having not thought of him much in the past 60 years.
Help yourself!:)

Glen Longino
02-23-2015, 11:13 PM
You bet!

My college classmates and I tuned in every week.

Did I forget to mention Angley was a faith healer and that healings were a featured part of every show?

We would take a swig every time Ernest shouted, "HEALLLL!"

You must have heard of my boy, J Charles Jessup!
Or maybe you're too young!:)

PeterSibley
02-24-2015, 01:13 AM
The US seems to specialise in religious humbug .

dsharp
02-24-2015, 01:19 AM
May have been mentioned but it could have a bearing in the children collecting money from social security.

Ian McColgin
02-24-2015, 01:22 AM
No Texas interest in surviving children getting the federal Social Security survivor's benefit. Texas is doing this for altruistic motives.

Glen Longino
02-24-2015, 01:41 AM
The US seems to specialise in religious humbug .

Hold on! What? Did you say religious humbug? What an insult to the 40% of US Citizens who believe God created the universe and Humans 7,000 years ago.
I demand an apology forthwith!;)

PeterSibley
02-24-2015, 02:41 AM
We got 'em too, my neighbour told me it was 6000 years yesterday and objected to my "brand differentiation' idea . I was shocked !

Glen Longino
02-24-2015, 02:58 AM
We got 'em too, my neighbour told me it was 6000 years yesterday and objected to my "brand differentiation' idea . I was shocked !

:)Nobody ever said it was easy living with Troglodytes, Pete!
All we can do is grab the bastids by the tail, drag them out of their caves, and sling them into the sunlight and hope they blink and realize the world can be bright and shiny rather than dark and dismal. Some choose the light, some run back into the cave.
I like those who run back into the cave. They are the Republicans who don't vote.

skuthorp
02-24-2015, 07:03 AM
I almost feel sorry for Hanley. Almost. Attitudes such as his do too much harm to others to treat them as purely a source of amusement.

PeterSibley
02-24-2015, 07:13 AM
Hanley doesn't need sympathy, he is surrounded by the angels of the Lord and they give him strength .... seriously . He KNOWS he's right. Just like every uber religious, Hindu, Sikh ,Moslem or Jew...... well maybe not Jew, they argue with god .

Chris Coose
02-24-2015, 08:04 AM
What does compassion has to do with 2 lesbians being granted a marriage license just because (unfortunately ) one has cancer.



THIS is a keeper!!!!!

TomZ
02-24-2015, 08:32 AM
There are just so many things in Leviticus that just don't quite fit with Christianity these days ... a major rethink is necessary !


Thankyou for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I havelearned a great deal from your show, and I try to share thatknowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defendthe homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind himthat Leviticus18:22clearlystates it to be an abomination. End of debate.

Ido need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specificlaws and how to best follow them.

a)When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates apleasing odor for the Lord (Lev1:9).Theproblem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them.Should I smite them?

b)I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctionedin Exodus21:7.Inthis day and age, what do you think would be a fair price forher?

c)I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in herperiod of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev15:19-24).Theproblem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women takeoffense.

d)Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male andfemale, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. Afriend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but notCanadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e)I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus35:2clearlystates he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill himmyself?

f)A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is anAbomination (Lev11:10),itis a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can yousettle this?

g)Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have adefect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Doesmy vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h)Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hairaround their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev19:27.Howshould they die?

i)I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes meunclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j)My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two differentcrops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made oftwo different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tendsto curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go toall the trouble of getting the whole town together to stonethem? (Lev24:10-16)Couldn'twe just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do withpeople who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

Iknow you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident youcan help.

Thankyou again for reminding us that God's word is eternal andunchanging.

Yourdevoted disciple and adoring fan.


Thats a keeper, Thanks Peter!

bamamick
02-24-2015, 08:39 AM
I don't understand it either. Last week gay marriage was the hot topic in Alabama. This week it's the unusually cold weather.

People will get used to it and it will be old hat before too long. It will just take some time.

Mickey Lake

Norman Bernstein
02-24-2015, 08:45 AM
Good post. Thank you for suggesting I might be a nice man, very generous, but I am very direct; probably why I am not such a good witness.

I wouldn't know whether you're a 'good witness' or not.

I don't judge people by how well they conform to the tenets of their faith.... I judge them by how they treat others, and whether they have the sort of ordinary compassion and sympathy for others... something which requires NO religious adherence, whatsoever.

Catholics 'hate the sin, but love the sinner'... and I honestly don't see how this love gets expressed when two people have been devoted to each other for 31 years, one contracts a terminal disease, and their children and put into jeopardy because others won't recognize their love.... or even just the interests of their children.

S.V. Airlie
02-24-2015, 09:20 AM
So, Hanley is FOR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT then.

RonW
02-24-2015, 10:26 AM
And back to reality, meanwhile norm and other bleeding heart liberals are saddened and infuriated over the governor, attorney general and others who want to deny this poor lesbian couple their special one and one only marriage license as granted by some knot head radical left wing liberal judge that thinks he can rule from the bench .

So can judges legislate from the bench ? I mean like in special case that concerns heart strings that troglodytes just don't have the compassion to understand ?

Peerie Maa
02-24-2015, 10:32 AM
^ Is Ron always like this, or does he save it up for Tuesdays?

Norman Bernstein
02-24-2015, 10:34 AM
^ Is Ron always like this, or does he save it up for Tuesdays?

It's a genetic thing, I think.

RonW
02-24-2015, 10:38 AM
It's a genetic thing, I think.

It's the red, white and blue, for god and country, dear lord save the country from the godless liberals, onward christian soldiers......

Dumah
02-24-2015, 10:39 AM
P.E Trudeau said it best "The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation." The "discussion" going on here merely reinforces my opinion that religion and faith are very individual, regardless of "brand", but by its orgination and reputed "authority" are definately flawed. Who are we to tell someone they are wrong in their beliefs when there is not a shred of evidence to support this "god" idea? It matters not one iota whether or not two people of the same sex marry, I challange you to prove to us unwashed exactly how this unfortunate couple causes you personal damage by their marriage. BTW, biblical quotes won't cut it with me.

Dumah

TomF
02-24-2015, 10:45 AM
So can judges legislate from the bench ? I mean like in special case that concerns heart strings that troglodytes just don't have the compassion to understand ?Ask the Supremes - they're about to do it respecting the ACA.

RonW
02-24-2015, 10:50 AM
Ask the Supremes - they're about to do it respecting the ACA.

yep.......and until they do decide, we can't allow these radical judges to make laws. But only to do their constitutional duty of upholding existing laws.

Keith Wilson
02-24-2015, 10:56 AM
Ron, why do you want to prevent these two women from getting married? Restricting someone's freedom to do what they want, when what they want to do will harm no one, requires very good justification. 'I don't want them to' is not sufficient.

TomF
02-24-2015, 10:57 AM
yep.......and until they do decide, we can't allow these radical judges to make laws. But only to do their constitutional duty of upholding existing laws.It's OK for "some knot head radical right wing conservative judge that thinks he can rule from the bench" to make law out of thin air and personal biases, but not for "some knot head radical left wing liberal judge that thinks he can rule from the bench" to do the same?

Or is it better for any judge to park their political prejudices, and actually rule on the basis of the legislated and known intent of the law ... whether or not they personally agree with that legislated and known intent?

RonW
02-24-2015, 11:05 AM
Ron, why do you want to prevent these two women from getting married? Restricting someone's freedom to do what they want, when what they want to do will harm no one, requires very good justification. 'I don't want them to' is not sufficient.

It is in violation of state law and the wish of the majority of the citizens of that state.

If you don't like the law then work to change it, and if a law violates a person's constitutional rights, then appeal it, even all the way to the supreme court and have the law set aside as being unconstitutional, if it is .

But having an activist judge rule in your favor and rewriting the law to exempt a individual is no way of handling this, and is unconstitutional behavior of the judge.
Which ultimately weakens the public opinion of the judicial system as being fair and unbiased.

Keith Wilson
02-24-2015, 11:10 AM
No, Ron, that wasn't the question. 'It's illegal' is circular. I'm asking why YOU think the law should prevent these two women from getting married.

FWIW, the Minnesota legislature passed same-sex marriage a couple of years ago. No big deal, no significant effect on anyone except those who can now get married.

Tom Montgomery
02-24-2015, 11:10 AM
^ Is Ron always like this, or does he save it up for Tuesdays?
RonW is always like this.

It is best to simply ignore him.

ljb5
02-24-2015, 11:18 AM
LBJ brings up a good view point on judges ruling on constitutionality.

And yes judges can set aside prosecution of a defendant when their rights are being violated, but that doesn't mean the judge can rewrite the law to create a different effect, such as granting marriage license.

But the law already provides for granting of marriage license. The judge is merely ruling that the portion of the law that has a discriminatory intent and effect is unenforceable, whereas the portion of the law that grants marriage licenses is enforceable.

Honestly, RonW, I get the fact that you don't like gay marriage, but you still gotta understand how our laws and courts work. Go back and look at Brown vs. Board of Ed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education) That's settled case law that clearly demonstrates that judges do have the right to invalidate portions of laws if they are discriminatory.

From a strategic point of view, you're not in a good position if your hatred of gay marriage is so severe that it causes you to misunderstand how the laws and courts work.

RonW
02-24-2015, 11:28 AM
No, Ron, that wasn't the question. 'It's illegal' is circular. I'm asking why YOU think the law should prevent these two women from getting married.

FWIW, the Minnesota legislature passed same-sex marriage a couple of years ago. No big deal, no significant effect on anyone except those who can now get married.

That would be a individual opinion and the collection of all these opinions would result in the wishes of the people of that state, regardless of why to and or why not to.

ljb5
02-24-2015, 11:31 AM
That would be a individual opinion and the collection of all these opinions would result in the wishes of the people of that state, regardless of why to and or why not to.

But what about individual freedom?

Since when do we turn over all of our personal decisions to the will of the community?

If you and your wife decide you want to have kids, but everyone else in your town thinks you are horrible people who shouldn't reproduce, does that mean they have the right to prevent you from having kids?

Canoeyawl
02-24-2015, 11:41 AM
Of course, regressive is the word of the day...
"By 1910, there was a large and dynamic network of scientists, reformers and professionals engaged in national eugenics projects and actively promoting eugenic legislation. The American Breeder’s Association was the first eugenic body in the U.S., established in 1906 under the direction of biologist Charles B. Davenport. The ABA was formed specifically to “investigate and report on heredity in the human race, and emphasize the value of superior blood and the menace to society of inferior blood."

The first state to introduce a compulsory sterilization bill was Michigan, in 1897 but the proposed law failed to garner enough votes by legislators to be adopted. Eight years later Pennsylvania's state legislators passed a sterilization bill that was vetoed by the governor. Indiana became the first state to enact sterilization legislation in 1907,[34] followed closely by Washington and California in 1909. Sterilization rates across the country were relatively low (California being the sole exception) until the 1927 Supreme Court case Buck v. Bell which legitimized the forced sterilization of patients at a Virginia home for the mentally retarded. The number of sterilizations performed per year increased until another Supreme Court case, Skinner v. Oklahoma, 1942, complicated the legal situation by ruling against sterilization of criminals if the equal protection clause of the constitution was violated. That is, if sterilization was to be performed, then it could not exempt white-collar criminals.[35] The state of California was at the vanguard of the American eugenics movement, performing about 20,000 sterilizations or one third of the 60,000 nationwide from 1909 up until the 1960s.[36]



http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States

Gib Etheridge
02-24-2015, 11:41 AM
RonW is always like this.

It is best to simply ignore him.

Here's a quite plausible explanation....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_political_orientation

Now add brain washing to brain structure and you get people like R.W.

Conditioning has lifelong effect.

Keith Wilson
02-24-2015, 11:44 AM
That would be a individual opinion and the collection of all these opinions would result in the wishes of the people of that state, regardless of why to and or why not to.You're dodging. Stop it. One more time: Ron, why do YOU want to prevent these two women from getting married? Restricting someone's freedom to do what they want, when what they want to do will harm no one, requires very good justification, even when the majority wants to do it. What's yours?

htom
02-24-2015, 11:46 AM
Texas's AG, Paxton, does not have the authority to void the license. A higher Texas court could.

Why Paxton is being such a [USMC depreciating description deleted] I don't know. Repressed psychological trauma jumping out of his Jungian shadow, perhaps.

l have a hard enough time doing what is proper and not doing what is improper; legal and illegal are two more axes (plural of axis) that I may happen to align with. Paxton would have helped his political position (at least in my eyes) by coming out and demanding that the Texas law be changed, citing this as an example of how the current law is bad for Texans.

RonW
02-24-2015, 11:53 AM
LBJ -
Honestly, RonW, I get the fact that you don't like gay marriage, but you still gotta understand how our laws and courts work. Go back and look at Brown vs. Board of Ed. That's settled case law that clearly demonstrates that judges do have the right to invalidate portions of laws if they are discriminatory.

I don't think you get this, judges have the right, duty and obligation to rule that a law is unconstitutional and set aside prosecution of a defendant so as to not violate their rights. But judges do not have the authority to reverse the law, they can only set aside the offensive part.
Once again judges do not have the right to rewrite the law, and that is exactly what granting gay marriage license is doing in states that outlaw it.........



But what about individual freedom?

Since when do we turn over all of our personal decisions to the will of the community?

Individual freedom is of the upmost importance, and no where has gays in the U.S. been denied the right to live and sleep together, so their freedom to make their choices are being upheld. They just want to extend their lifestyle choice to include privileges that have been reserved for married couple that are defined in each and every state code.

RonW
02-24-2015, 11:59 AM
You're dodging. Stop it. One more time: Ron, why do YOU want to prevent these two women from getting married? Restricting someone's freedom to do what they want, when what they want to do will harm no one, requires very good justification, even when the majority wants to do it. What's yours?

I have no intentions of restricting anyone's freedom, I just see no reason to acknowledge and bless it with a marriage license that has been reserved for one man and one woman up till this time. But they are free to do as they wish..

Keith Wilson
02-24-2015, 12:06 PM
I have no intentions of restricting anyone's freedom . . OK, that's commendable.


I just see no reason to acknowledge and bless it with a marriage license that has been reserved for one man and one woman up till this time.And here you contradict yourself. They want to get married. You think the law should prevent them. Other than inertia, you have given no reason.


But they are free to do as they wish.Not until they can get married.

One more time, and stop dodging: why do YOU want to prevent these two women from getting married? Restricting someone's freedom to do what they want when what they want to do will harm no one, requires very good justification, even when the majority wants to do it. What's yours?

ljb5
02-24-2015, 12:30 PM
Once again judges do not have the right to rewrite the law, and that is exactly what granting gay marriage license is doing in states that outlaw it.........

If the law that outlaws gay marriage is judged to be unconstitutional, the judge certainly has the right to set it aside.


Individual freedom is of the upmost importance, and no where has gays in the U.S. been denied the right to live and sleep together, so their freedom to make their choices are being upheld.

Well, obviously you don't know the facts because as recently as last week gays in Louisiana were charged with 'crimes against nature.' But that's not really relevant to today's discussion.


They just want to extend their lifestyle choice to include privileges that have been reserved for married couple that are defined in each and every state code.

There you go again, using that word "privileges" as if somehow that makes it okay. I've told you already that the US Constitution protects privileges as well as rights.

So if the US Constitution says their privileges may not be abridged, what possible state law could abridge their privileges? Obviously none. So any state law that abridges their privileges is struck down on the grounds that it is not Constitutional. Case closed.

John of Phoenix
02-24-2015, 01:56 PM
I have no intentions of restricting anyone's freedom, I just see no reason to acknowledge and bless it with a marriage license that has been reserved for one man and one woman up till this time. But they are free to do as they wish..As long as they can't get married.

Has this guy not convinced you that he's psychotic?

Chris Coose
02-24-2015, 02:28 PM
I'm optimistic marriage equality will make its way into backwaters like Texas. In Maine it was some people coming around on principle and a bunch of old bigots taking the dirt nap, but it'll come around one day and the bigots will find their marriage remains in tact!!

There will be a few religionists going all holy but it becomes laughable.