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View Full Version : Hate to say this, but another shooting accident by a careless gun owner.



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Shang
02-20-2015, 06:09 PM
TribLive.com of Pittsburgh reports that Gerry Good, 58, of Gibsonia, Pa., was wearing a fanny pack at the local Giant Eagle when he leaned over inside the store and his gun fell out and discharged last Friday afternoon.

TribLive reports that the bullet hit the floor and pieces of what appeared to be ceramic tile struck and injured two people, identified as Ruth Preisser and Thomas Hornyak.

Both had minor leg injuries and were treated at the scene, police told the website.

Good was arrested and faces charges, according to Northern Regional police.

Good immediately told responding officers that it was his gun that fell and accidentally went off. The gun is registered to Good, who has a permit to carry the weapon, TribLive reported.

Giant Eagle spokesman Dick Roberts told TribLIVE: "We are relieved to hear that the customers sustained only minor injuries, received first aid in the store and were able to complete their shopping before leaving the store."

Steve McMahon
02-20-2015, 06:30 PM
He was probably wearing the fanny pack improperly.

Shang
02-20-2015, 06:34 PM
VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (WAVY) —

John Neil, 22, died Tuesday night in an accidental shooting outside the AMF Lynnhaven Lanes bowling alley on Lishelle Place. He was surrounded by friends in the parking lot, one of whom was 33-year-old Eddie Pope.

Around 10:15 p.m. police say Pope was showing Neil his gun when it went off.

“It’s the worst day of my life,” said friend Steve LaFave. “There are so many scenarios in my head. I wish there are things I can change, but you can’t do it.”

Paul Pless
02-20-2015, 06:46 PM
Around 10:15 p.m. police say Pope was showing Neil his gun when it went off.might have been prevented if we had compulsory gun safety training and proficiency testing for prospective gun purchasers
instead our right wing wackos suggest that people should wear helmets in cars and that transporting household cleaners should illegal - idiots

John Smith
02-20-2015, 06:49 PM
And...........?

Shang
02-20-2015, 07:09 PM
OTAY MESA — An FBI agent's handgun discharged into his leg Thursday morning during training at a firearms training center in Otay Mesa, a federal official said.

The shooting happened at the San Diego Regional Firearms Training Center on Alta Road about 10 a.m., FBI Special Agent Darrell Foxworth said. Investigators are trying to determine if the agent accidentally shot himself or if the gun malfunctioned.

Other agents at the training center helped the injured man until paramedics arrived. Foxworth wouldn't say how long he had been with the FBI.

The Bigfella
02-20-2015, 07:10 PM
80 plus dead every day.

Has anyone ever tallied up to total lives lost to this failure of the Founding Fathers?

I could only find statistics going back 30 years... and that was just shy of one million deaths... 970,000+ IIRC. All up, how many millions of lives has the 2nd Amendment cost?

Paul Pless
02-20-2015, 07:14 PM
Foxworth wouldn't say how long he had been with the FBI.or how long he would remain with the FBI. . .

Paul Pless
02-20-2015, 07:16 PM
While we're at it, lets tell smokers to stop smoking and alcoholics to stop drinking. That should solve two huge problems, right?I like the way you use nuance to suggest that 2nd amendment freaks are addicted to their guns. Well played. . .

Paul Pless
02-20-2015, 07:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTU2Y0VFH0E

Willin'
02-20-2015, 07:29 PM
Investigators are trying to determine if the agent accidentally shot himself or if the gun malfunctioned.




Wait, wait! You mean guns really can shoot people! Gosh!

CWSmith
02-20-2015, 07:31 PM
While we're at it, lets tell smokers to stop smoking and alcoholics to stop drinking. That should solve two huge problems, right?

Well, we do and it appears to be working. At least smoking is down.

We charge smokers more money for life insurance. Maybe we should charge gun owners a premium for health and life insurance to pay for the likelihood they will die early due to gunshot?! I like that idea.

Then we can start GUA - Gun Owners Anonymous - for people who are addicted to firearms and can't get thru the day without one.

Shang
02-20-2015, 07:46 PM
SAN FRANCISCO (BCN) San Francisco police are searching for a suspect who shot two males in the Mission District this evening during an argument, leaving them with life-threatening injuries.

The victims were standing at the corner of 17th and Capp streets around 7:10 p.m. arguing with the suspect when he pulled out a handgun and shot both of them, according to police.

The suspect fled the scene, and the victims were taken to San Francisco General Hospital with life-threatening injuries.

Phillip Allen
02-20-2015, 07:46 PM
Oh my gosh... have I started another gun thread???

Peter Malcolm Jardine
02-20-2015, 07:57 PM
Oh my gosh... have I started another gun thread???


Did you just wake up in a parallel universe?

Phillip Allen
02-20-2015, 08:01 PM
Did you just wake up in a parallel universe?

just going along with the rat who claimed that I started all the gun threads...

Shang
02-20-2015, 08:27 PM
WEST WINDSOR, N.J. (AP) — Police say a father has accidentally shot and killed his adult son during a hunting trip in New Jersey.

WCAU-TV (http://bit.ly/1qQBVN4 ) reports that the shooting happened Saturday afternoon in West Windsor.

Police say the older man mistakenly shot his 45-year-old son in the back of the head. The son later died from his injuries.

West Windsor police and the Mercer County prosecutor's office are investigating.

Phillip Allen
02-20-2015, 08:29 PM
WEST WINDSOR, N.J. (AP) — Police say a father has accidentally shot and killed his adult son during a hunting trip in New Jersey.

WCAU-TV (http://bit.ly/1qQBVN4 ) reports that the shooting happened Saturday afternoon in West Windsor.

Police say the older man mistakenly shot his 45-year-old son in the back of the head. The son later died from his injuries.

West Windsor police and the Mercer County prosecutor's office are investigating.

was the offending gun a flintlock?

S.V. Airlie
02-20-2015, 08:29 PM
Hunting? What season is open and for what?

Gerarddm
02-20-2015, 08:31 PM
I like how the store owner in #1 was relieved because the victims could complete their shopping, LOL. Gotta think of the bottom line.

Phillip Allen
02-20-2015, 08:33 PM
Hunting? What season is open and for what?

gotta be old news... you know... the old news I get complaints about

S.V. Airlie
02-20-2015, 09:01 PM
Good keep the liberties you think you have, lost buy a loaded gun and jam it down your jockstrap. You'll sound a lot better 5 octaves higher

LeeG
02-20-2015, 09:08 PM
WEST WINDSOR, N.J. (AP) — Police say a father has accidentally shot and killed his adult son during a hunting trip in New Jersey.

WCAU-TV (http://bit.ly/1qQBVN4 ) reports that the shooting happened Saturday afternoon in West Windsor.

Police say the older man mistakenly shot his 45-year-old son in the back of the head. The son later died from his injuries.

West Windsor police and the Mercer County prosecutor's office are investigating.

That needs some detail

S.V. Airlie
02-20-2015, 09:36 PM
That needs some detailA date at least!

Shang
02-20-2015, 09:37 PM
gotta be old news... you know... the old news I get complaints about

November 22, 2014--four months ago.
None of the incidents I listed were as much as a year old.

But what possible difference would that make--do you only count shooting incidents when they are fresh?

S.V. Airlie
02-20-2015, 09:38 PM
Hunting accidents! Different kettle of fish! My opinion!

CWSmith
02-20-2015, 09:43 PM
Comments by foreign lefty trolls actually serve a useful purpose today because they remind us that even in times of peace the enemies of America are busy, lending succor and foreign flavor to the ongoing attack on American liberty carried out by our home grown lefties. See, there's a positive side to just about anything.;)

I have not heard rhetoric that maudlin since the cold war.

S.V. Airlie
02-20-2015, 09:46 PM
I always will remember,
'Twas a year ago November,
I went out to hunt some deer
On a mornin' bright and clear.
I went and shot the maximum the game laws would allow,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

I was in no mood to trifle,
I took down my trusty rifle
And went out to stalk my prey.
What a haul I made that day.
I tied them to my fender, and I drove them home somehow,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

The law was very firm, it
Took away my permit,
The worst punishment I ever endured.
It turned out there was a reason,
Cows were out of season,
And one of the hunters wasn't insured.

People ask me how I do it,
And I say, "There's nothin' to it,
You just stand there lookin' cute,
And when something moves, you shoot!"
And there's ten stuffed heads in my trophy room right now,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a pure-bred Guernsey cow.
Sponsored Links

Phillip Allen
02-20-2015, 09:50 PM
November 22, 2014--four months ago.
None of the incidents I listed were as much as a year old.

But what possible difference would that make--do you only count shooting incidents when they are fresh?

I don't mind your 'old' news... I think it is dishonest to tell me my news is too old to use... another double standard

CWSmith
02-20-2015, 09:52 PM
^^ Tom Lehrer?! Brilliant.

S.V. Airlie
02-20-2015, 10:01 PM
^^ Tom Lehrer?! Brilliant.Yes, Tom L.

Shang
02-20-2015, 10:11 PM
I don't mind your 'old' news... I think it is dishonest to tell me my news is too old to use... another double standard

Come on, Phillip, you brought up the idea that 'old' news negated criticism of shooting incidents!

Phillip Allen
02-20-2015, 10:13 PM
Come on, Phillip, you brought up the idea that 'old' news negated criticism of shooting incidents!

not the idea but the phony complaint that my 'examples' couldn't be used if they were deemed 'old'... the world is full of frauds, it seems

The Bigfella
02-20-2015, 10:20 PM
Comments by foreign lefty trolls actually serve a useful purpose today because they remind us that even in times of peace the enemies of America are busy, lending succor and foreign flavor to the ongoing attack on American liberty carried out by our home grown lefties. See, there's a positive side to just about anything.;)

Presumably, since you quoted my post, you mean me?

I'm no lefty... I sit somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan when it comes to politics. Are you man enough to call me a troll to my face, or can you only do that, slinking around in the dark with your keyboard? Where do you get this "enemies of America" rubbish from? You are really being strange.... can't you recognise someone who's just trying to help the apparently helpless. Did you ever bite your Mommy's hand at feeding time?

S.V. Airlie
02-20-2015, 10:31 PM
BF as many have a handle other than their name. How many pics have you posted? I certainly have a better "Feeling" of who BF is than I do about you other than your fascination/willingness to rant on and on about "your" bible.

Shang
02-20-2015, 10:34 PM
not the idea but the phony complaint that my 'examples' couldn't be used if they were deemed 'old'... the world is full of frauds, it seems

What examples? Have you discounted shooting incidents that involved flintlock weapons? I don't think so...at least I haven't heard any.

You, of all people I have heard of, have the strongest reasons for defending firearms ownership, and it must be obvious to you that every time someone trips a trigger and shoots someone else another step is taken toward firearms restriction.

S.V. Airlie
02-20-2015, 10:34 PM
Nice pic of you Hanley!

Duncan Gibbs
02-20-2015, 10:35 PM
Comments by foreign lefty trolls actually serve a useful purpose today because they remind us that even in times of peace the enemies of America are busy, lending succor and foreign flavor to the ongoing attack on American liberty carried out by our home grown lefties. See, there's a positive side to just about anything.;)

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing021.gif

You have NO IDEA about Ian's politics do you! :D:D

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing016.gif

S.V. Airlie
02-20-2015, 10:38 PM
Easy to figure it out Hanley.. He doesn't avoid his political leanings. I may disagree with him, I'm sure it can be mutual but, he has things worth listening to.

S.V. Airlie
02-20-2015, 10:57 PM
Must be, you posted it. IF you aren't interested, why did you?

The Bigfella
02-20-2015, 11:00 PM
Since you hide behind a nomme de Bilge, anonymously, it would be quite impossible to do anything to your face, unless it's your avatar. OTOH, my location and name are plain to see.

... as is your statement that you are a "low information voter". Surely you are more an individual than just a voter?

... and as for me being anonymous, I haven't tried it, but I'd hazard a guess that if you sent a letter to me, with my avatar and "nomme de Bilge" as you call it to the Burj Al Salam, Dubai, UAE... I reckon there's a better than 50% chance doorman would hand it to me.

The Bigfella
02-20-2015, 11:05 PM
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing021.gif

You have NO IDEA about Ian's politics do you! :D:D

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing016.gif

If I'm a lefty, you just got confirmed to the Politburo

Old Dryfoot
02-20-2015, 11:09 PM
Since you hide behind a nomme de Bilge, anonymously, it would be quite impossible to do anything to your face, unless it's your avatar. OTOH, my location and name are plain to see.

Ya know that homework you're always talking about? :D

The Bigfella
02-20-2015, 11:47 PM
Here's my face, Hanley.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/iansecond/Ianincockpit.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/iansecond/Ianincockpit.jpg.html)

Where's yours hiding?

Glen Longino
02-21-2015, 12:39 AM
Oh boy, Hanley and Ian going at it!
Where's the popcorn?:D
Two danged Troglodytes don't even recognize their own kind!:D

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 12:43 AM
Oh boy, Hanley and Ian going at it!
Where's the popcorn?:D
Two danged Troglodytes don't even recognize their own kind!:D

We aren't going at it, at all. Hanley's showing that he's all hat, no cattle

Glen Longino
02-21-2015, 01:06 AM
We aren't going at it, at all. Hanley's showing that he's all hat, no cattle

But you don't want to hurt his feelings, do you?
He has so much invested in Jehovah and Armageddon and all that malarkey that you could do him some serious trauma with your bulldog attack.
You must learn to be kind and understanding of those you disagree with...like I do!:D
Best wishes to you, Sir!:)

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 01:15 AM
But you don't want to hurt his feelings, do you?
He has so much invested in Jehovah and Armageddon and all that malarkey that you could do him some serious trauma with your bulldog attack.
You must learn to be kind and understanding of those you disagree with...like I do!:D
Best wishes to you, Sir!:)

Sheesh. You know me better than that. I don't attack anyone, but I do arc up a bit from time to time when attacked. :cool:

As for his religion... well, he can choose whatever deities or idols that he likes. Some people need crutches, so be it. I'm just getting used to the fact that some folks I work with disappear out of meetings for 15 minutes at times (go to pray).... we have been known to ask them to pray for our projects from time to time as they head off.

Glen Longino
02-21-2015, 01:27 AM
When people pray for me it sets my nerves on edge!
The last thing I need is for somebody to bring me to the attention of Almighty God.
I've managed to hide from Him quite well for 73 years and neither of Us has missed the other.;)

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 01:42 AM
When people pray for me it sets my nerves on edge!
The last thing I need is for somebody to bring me to the attention of Almighty God.
I've managed to hide from Him quite well for 73 years and neither of Us has missed the other.;)

Ditto... put I did express an interest in visiting Mecca. Some workmates have said that they can get me there... but that there's a prerequisite.

Glen Longino
02-21-2015, 01:55 AM
"prerequisite"...Uh Oh! :D

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 02:13 AM
"prerequisite"...Uh Oh! :D

Apparently its quite easy

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/204/

Glen Longino
02-21-2015, 02:47 AM
Ouch! Don't do it!
You'll become Hanley in a different colored robe!

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 02:50 AM
At least not until I've emptied the booze cabinet. I never understood how my Egyptian PA, some decades back, could rationalise that smoking hooch was OK, as was tobacco and propositioning me to do things on her desk (I never accepted the invite and fortunately she never repeated it) were OK... but having a beer wasn't.

Glen Longino
02-21-2015, 02:57 AM
See? That's what I'm talking about!
It's much better to be a lost soul than to find your soul in the hands of perfidious bastids!;)

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 03:01 AM
OK - time to take my life into my hands - jump in the mighty Honda and venture out into the sandstorm that is building dunes on my balcony. I'll come back later to see if Hanley has seen the light, come up with some gun safety suggestions, or had a nice day. Its off through the moving sands to Dubai Mall for a movie (and some shopping). Wish me luck.

Peerie Maa
02-21-2015, 05:39 AM
While we're at it, lets tell smokers to stop smoking and alcoholics to stop drinking. That should solve two huge problems, right?

We are talking about Americans killing other Americans.

Peerie Maa
02-21-2015, 05:41 AM
Hunting? What season is open and for what?

Sons

skuthorp
02-21-2015, 05:46 AM
We are talking about Americans killing other Americans.
I think it's the national sport PM. Seems acceptable to enough of them for it to continue unabated. Maybe it's a form of taxation that the the right don't mind?

Peerie Maa
02-21-2015, 05:51 AM
I think it's the national sport PM. Seems acceptable to enough of them for it to continue unabated. Maybe it's a form of taxation that the the right don't mind?

May be those that think it a good thing still believe Social Darwinism.

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 06:16 AM
I suspect its that little bit of power in some sad, under-achieving lives.

Dannybb55
02-21-2015, 06:39 AM
Guns don't arbitrarily discharge. Some idiot squeezed the trigger.

Duncan Gibbs
02-21-2015, 07:28 AM
I just went looking for videos of gun negligence, accidental discharge and firearm accidents and youtube is packed with vision of all manner of potential Darwin award recipients along with bystander victims both actual and potential.

In all of what is shown is there a single thing that has of a jot of relevance to the whole 2nd amendment.

It's just sad and tragic because it's all so avoidable and stupid. Really, really stupid.

Chip-skiff
02-21-2015, 12:33 PM
It's just sad and tragic because it's all so avoidable and stupid. Really, really stupid.

Another example:

Last July, William DeHayes was practicing some innocent gun-slinging tricks in his kitchen in Brooksville, Florida, when he accidentally shot Katherine Hoover, the wife of his old friend, point blank in the temple as she sat eating at the kitchen table. Ms. Hoover was five months pregnant at the time, and doctors tried in vain to save both her and her fetus, a boy she had named Rehlin.

The medical examiner ruled the deaths homicides, but Mr. DeHayes will not face any charges in the case. Why not? The state attorney, Brad King, said there was no evidence Mr. DeHayes “had a careless or reckless indifference to the safety of the victims when the firearm discharged,” according to The Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/20/this-florida-man-got-a-free-pass-for-shooting-a-pregnant-woman-to-death.html?via=mobile&source=twitter).

Mr. DeHayes clearly feels very bad about what happened. In an interview with the local sheriff, he said, “I haven’t slept in three days trying to figure out how the hell [the gun] went off. I don’t know. I mean them damn guns. The shotgun goes off when it wants to. I almost blew my damn head off twice.”

Since the National Rifle Association has repeatedly confirmed that guns do not, in fact, kill people, who is responsible for the deaths of Ms. Hoover and her unborn son?

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/wait-guns-do-kill-people/?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

Chip-skiff
02-21-2015, 12:39 PM
Here's a broader take on the issue:

A new report reveals that at least 722 deaths since 2007 were attributed to individuals with legal permits to carry concealed weapons.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/opinion/concealed-carrys-body-count.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

CWSmith
02-21-2015, 12:40 PM
#73 ^ My uncle's good friend accidentally shot my uncle in the ankle while rabbit hunting and never fired a gun again. He felt bad.

I read the above and wonder if Mr. DeHayes will decide he should not handle guns, let alone "practice innocent gun slinging tricks", or will he continue behaving as before?

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 12:45 PM
People are responsible, not the guns. I have repeatedly presented a plan to curb this sort of thing which our resident lefties ignore because it does not fit their profiling of those who do not agree 100% with them.

the lefties, like other historical examples, want a pacified citizenry... when that happens, we will find out how little value they place on individual lives

Chip-skiff
02-21-2015, 12:46 PM
How could any sane person consider "gun-slinging tricks" using a loaded firearm in close proximity to other people "innocent?"

If the guy hadn't been (insert adjective) playing with a loaded gun, the woman would still be alive and her child would have been born.

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 12:46 PM
People are responsible, not the guns. I have repeatedly presented a plan to curb this sort of thing which our resident lefties ignore because it does not fit their profiling of those who do not agree 100% with them.

I'm a resident rightie... and what's that plan of yours?

Oh, while we're at it, I'm a licensed shooter too, with 4 registered rifles. All of them locked in a gun safe, with the ammo locked away separately

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 12:57 PM
the lefties, like other historical examples, want a pacified citizenry... when that happens, we will find out how little value they place on individual livesI think the left wants to save lives by limiting/controlling the use of guns belonging to really, really stupid people. The gov. controls speed limits on windy roads because some people will go as fast as they can otherwise Regardless, even With the signs there, they will speed just because THEY CAN!!

Peerie Maa
02-21-2015, 01:07 PM
People are responsible, not the guns. I have repeatedly presented a plan to curb this sort of thing which our resident lefties ignore because it does not fit their profiling of those who do not agree 100% with them.

Hanley, stop being partisan. My observations are that the defeatists are convinced that the solutions are impossible to imliment in the face of the support for the status quo, whilst the Gun Nuts blether on about some spurious concept called "Freedom", or the need to fight their elected government, or the sanctity of something written by man and amended by man. If anything this last collection seem to be right of centre.

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 01:20 PM
It seems that the left always wants to regulate people into submission of their beliefs. The left anti-gun fanatics want to ban guns but the right pro-gun moderates don't care if the lefties have guns or not. The right believes in FREEDOM to sum it up.

I'm from the right. I believe that people have the freedom to be alive. 2.5% of American males die with a bullet in them. The founding fathers failed to secure the freedoms they sought

Steve McMahon
02-21-2015, 01:22 PM
It seems that the left always wants to regulate people into submission of their beliefs. The left anti-gun fanatics want to ban guns but the right pro-gun moderates don't care if the lefties have guns or not. The right believes in FREEDOM to sum it up.

What a colossally huge pile of hooey.
Name one single anti gun person currently on the WBF and PROVE it.

Steve McMahon
02-21-2015, 01:30 PM
Like I said kids. Name one WBF member who has stated that all guns should be banned and prove it.

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 01:31 PM
What a colossally huge pile of hooey.
Name one single anti gun person currently on the WBF and PROVE it.

I can PROVE it to myself and other thinking people but it is not possible to PROVE it to you... not possible at all. you will simply reject any reality which does not promote your 'golden truth'... so, there's no point in trying

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 01:32 PM
Like I said kids. Name one WBF member who has stated that all guns should be banned and prove it.

slug... and he wants the owners houses bulldozed... is that enough, judge?

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 01:39 PM
BS. What a joke.

I will accept a grovelling apology.

From 1980 to 2005 (I have more recent figures at home... but those years will do, and the ratio stays the same anyhow), there were 29,549,997 American male deaths. Of these, 727,336 were due to gunshot. That's, ahem, 2.5%.

On yer knees, sunshine

CK 17
02-21-2015, 01:41 PM
It seems that the left always wants to regulate people into submission of their beliefs. The left anti-gun fanatics want to ban guns but the right pro-gun moderates don't care if the lefties have guns or not. The right believes in FREEDOM to sum it up.
Your belief ends at the muzzle of your gun. When the bullet goes past that point it becomes my problem. On a very regular basis, guns are being carelessly discharged and killing innocent people. I'm about to run a couple of laps around the university of Las Vegas. I hope I don't take in the head by a careless "enthusiast". Wish me luck.

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 01:44 PM
BS. What a joke.you must be new here

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 01:46 PM
Sonshine, post a link to the "facts".

Wazzup, don't know how to log in to the CDC site? All the figures are there.

Here, I'll start you off with some



1980
1,075,078
28,020
2.6%


1981
1,063,772
28,072
2.6%


1982
1,056,440
27,246
2.6%


1983
1,071,923
25,696
2.4%


1984
1,076,514
25,981
2.4%


1985
1,097,758
26,144
2.4%


1986
1,104,005
27,843
2.5%


1987
1,107,958
27,317
2.5%


1988
1,125,540
28,449
2.5%


1989
1,114,190
29,301
2.6%


1990
1,113,417
31,458
2.8%


1991
1,121,665
32,651
2.9%


1992
1,122,336
32,130
2.9%


1993
1,161,797
33,403
2.9%


1994
1,162,747
32,694
2.8%


1995
1,172,959
30,448
2.6%

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 01:49 PM
On yer knees yet? I'm waiting for that apology. You sure owe it.

Steve McMahon
02-21-2015, 01:51 PM
slug... and he wants the owners houses bulldozed... is that enough, judge?

Nope.
Try harder.

Steve McMahon
02-21-2015, 01:53 PM
I can PROVE it to myself and other thinking people but it is not possible to PROVE it to you... not possible at all. you will simply reject any reality which does not promote your 'golden truth'... so, there's no point in trying

So what is my "Golden Truth"?
I own guns Phillip. I just don't walk around walmart with them loaded and shoved down my frikkin underwear.

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 01:57 PM
Again, post the LINK to the data.

Who do you think you are, my academic supervisor?

You are the rude so and so, who called my statement "BS" and "a joke". I wasn't rude to you. I've given you actual statistics. I've told you the source.

Either do your own research to try and disprove it .... which you can't, or be a decent man (or woman) and apologise for your disgusting slur.

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 02:04 PM
I must be feeling generous tonight.

Here's one link. You'll need to do some research yourself though, for other years, etc. You are capable of that, aren't you, or is insults all you've got capacity for?

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/statab/hist001.pdf

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 02:07 PM
Just one, uno, un, (1) example.......

Sorry, he/she is busy, preparing a grovelling apology for being rude to me.

Peerie Maa
02-21-2015, 02:16 PM
In 2013 there were 2,596,993 american deaths, 505 were by accidental discharge of a firearm. Thats less than 0.02%

So that's all right then. Such a small number hardly matters.
555 grieving families just don't count for anything. Nice.

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 02:17 PM
So that's all right then. Such a small number hardly matters.
555 grieving families just don't count for anything. Nice.Not unless they were democrats!

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 02:30 PM
Perhaps more than a table of numbers is in order here along with a reference to go with it.

I gave you one. Post 102. You can figure it out from there, along with other CDC data.

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 02:47 PM
Stats that are over 20 years old really have no place in this debate unless you are trying to show the large improvement in gun safety in recent years.the statistics have gotten worse over the last decade. . .

Reynard38
02-21-2015, 02:49 PM
Would it be a good idea to require some form of training to own a firearm, probably. I took a course in gun safety when I bought my pistol. It was definitely worthwhile.
Should some form of intelligence test be administered to own a gun. Perhaps. Same test should be given for a drivers liscence, for voting, and most certainly for breeding!

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 02:56 PM
I'm sure you'll find a lot of followers for that here----but I'm not one of them.you and phillip; why not?

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 03:01 PM
Would you like to tell us why you didn't label the columns?BY:DThe column labels are:year, total deaths, death by firearm, and percentage of death by firearm.


I'm not going looking for numbers for you, they're all on the CDC website. I will tell you there was a dip in firearm related deaths late in the Clinton presidency and it has been on the rise ever since Bush took office.

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 03:18 PM
I'm sure you'll find a lot of followers for that here----but I'm not one of them.you and phillip stand united; why not?

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 03:35 PM
For a thread labeled "Hate to say this, but another shooting accident by a careless gun owner" should use accidental shooting as a basis in fact and arbitrarily including homicide and suicide deaths without clarification is subject at best.

He did clarify. This thread drifted to include gun violence about fifty posts ago.

So why is that you are against safety training?

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 03:36 PM
I believe in freedom of choice.

Wow. Not even gonna rise to level of compromising Second Amendment remedies or making self defense needlessly expensive; just gonna sit their in a puddle of ignorance, "I believe in the freedom to be ignorant, and damn the cost to others of me being stupid." Basically that's what your saying.

Boater14
02-21-2015, 03:44 PM
send me a link, where are the headings, that's just an opinion, wipe the spit off my chin....send in the little car to pick up the clowns.

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 03:45 PM
Straw man. I'm not against safety training, I'm against requiring it.Oh brother! I'm sorry! I hope honestly that stupidity doesn't run in packs (oops, maybe it does!). Also glad you don't have a hunting lic. A safety course, at least here, requires one

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 03:52 PM
Oh, good, you're smart enough to notice! Just checking!:)

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 03:58 PM
Your "death by firearm" includes accidental, homicide, and suicide deaths doesn't it?Does one actually think suicide by any method is accidental?

CK 17
02-21-2015, 04:02 PM
Straw man. I'm not against safety training, I'm against requiring it.
So then, what do say to the guy that got shot by the guy that didn't take the safety course and discharged his gun in a Walmart?

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 04:03 PM
I believe in freedom of choice.You have a choice! You can buy a gun unless you are a criminal or nuts (court determined). If those reasons keep you from buying a gun, well that's just too bad!

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 04:12 PM
Oh good! "Harmony" works! A match made in heaven has happened!

CK 17
02-21-2015, 04:26 PM
Manslaughter charges. When a crime is committed prosecute.
So no steps to prevent the shooting?

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 04:27 PM
So that's all right then. Such a small number hardly matters.
555 grieving families just don't count for anything. Nice.

do you support mandatory crash helmets for driver and passengers in cars? there will be fewer grieving families

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 04:30 PM
Sorry, he/she is busy, preparing a grovelling apology for being rude to me.

demanding a grovelling apology is only demanding humiliation...you're not actually interested in apologies, I see... and what is THAT called? (we've all known about your demand for inflicted humiliation for a long time... Meli and some other women know for sure)

edited to add more proof:

On yer knees yet? I'm waiting for that apology. You sure owe it.

edited again... you seem to have a mental incapacity... they make movies about these things from time to time... I don't watch those either... goodby


I will accept a grovelling apology.

From 1980 to 2005 (I have more recent figures at home... but those years will do, and the ratio stays the same anyhow), there were 29,549,997 American male deaths. Of these, 727,336 were due to gunshot. That's, ahem, 2.5%.

On yer knees, sunshine

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 04:34 PM
Nope.
Try harder.

yep... but that's it... I knew you would reject any truth that didn't suit you and I'm not gonna play such a childish game with you

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 04:36 PM
you must be new here

very lame, Paul...

Tom Wilkinson
02-21-2015, 05:16 PM
do you support mandatory crash helmets for driver and passengers in cars? there will be fewer grieving families

Woohoo, the dumbest possible argument comes up again. Cars have been getting safer and safer for years and auto related deaths continue to decline while gun related deaths continue to rise. Gun related deaths will surpass autos soon. What steps are you promoting to reduce the gun deaths Phillip??

Keep on rockin...

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 05:18 PM
Manslaughter chargers is a deterrent, and that's a big step in prevention.And thus, Capital Punishment works too!

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 05:24 PM
Woohoo, the dumbest possible argument comes up again. Cars have been getting safer and safer for years and auto related deaths continue to decline while gun related deaths continue to rise. Gun related deaths will surpass autos soon. What steps are you promoting to reduce the gun deaths Phillip??

Keep on rockin...

it looks as though it's back to you wanting your conveniences left alone... it's so obvious

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 05:26 PM
it looks as though it's back to you wanting your conveniences left alone... it's so obviousConveniences?

Boater14
02-21-2015, 05:45 PM
yes, its convenient not being shot in a supermarket.

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 05:57 PM
yes, its convenient not being shot in a supermarket.

the convenience referred to is the convenience of not having to buy a number of helmets and wear them... but you undoubtedly already knew that and your comment is less than honest

have you verbally stoned anyone for having a 250 year old flintlock gun lately?

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 06:00 PM
I helmet, one head one cycle at a time. Oh I guess bicycle helmets are an inconvenience too. Had a good friend; mother of five, killed because she wasn't wearing a helmet...Oh, it was the car's fault too (accident)

Old Dryfoot
02-21-2015, 06:09 PM
Let's ban all the cars then. Or do you think a required safety test will suffice?

Oh look! Another idiotic statement equating cars and guns.

Tom Wilkinson
02-21-2015, 06:11 PM
I am?? Once again, car deaths are DECLINING. Car usage is higher than guns. Gun related deaths are INCREASING.

WHO IS AFRAID OF LOSING THE CONVENIENCES??

Stop advocating something you don't even do yourself. Do you wear a helmet when you drive? No. Do you have a single study that shows helmets will reduce automobile deaths? No.

It's the dumbest argument you can possibly come up with (though admittedly I could be underestimating you).

If I thought helmets made any reasonable sense for auto safety I might consider the argument but I can think of as many detriments as there are positives. I can't believe you still hang on to that ridiculousness. When you start wearing a helmet everywhere you go in a vehicle get back to me.

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 06:20 PM
It's the dumbest argument you can possibly come up with (though admittedly I could be underestimating you).The dumbest thing about right wingers like Phillip and Kmac advocating 'rules' to make cars safer is that we already do that. We require that cars be registered, that operators be tested for proficiency and safety and have a license, and insurance and to obey laws regarding their use. We regulate the design and manufacture and distribution of cars. We test them for safety. We have governemnt and industry work together to improve vehicle safety through technologies Further when we find certain drivers or certain cars to be unsafe, we take steps to prevent those drivers from being on the road and we recall and fix the defective automobiles. We do none of that we guns, but we should. Not only do we do none of that with guns, the industry and gun rights extremist actively fight against developing training programs or even technologies such as smart guns and smart safes that would make firearms safer. It really is the stupidest thing they advocate by way of comparison.

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 06:22 PM
Straw man. Where did I equate cars and guns?

short term memory loss??? put the hogleg down :D


Let's ban all the cars then.

Old Dryfoot
02-21-2015, 06:23 PM
Straw man. Where did I equate cars and guns?

Just being preemptive. I've seen the cars and guns argument trotted out countless times when the hardcore 2nd supports have nothing else left.

So do you have those DGU stats yet?

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 06:24 PM
Straw man. Where did I equate cars and guns?

don't let him lead you astray... the equating is death and death... the dishonesty comes in when someone places his personal convenience (not wanting to buy helmets or mess his hair up) and as more important than a life lost to a car wreck... it's as plain as plain can be...

Old Dryfoot
02-21-2015, 06:30 PM
don't let him lead you astray... the equating is death and death... the dishonesty comes in when someone places his personal convenience (not wanting to buy helmets or mess his hair up) and as more important than a life lost to a car wreck... it's as plain as plain can be...

You must have missed Paul's post, here let me re post it for you.


The dumbest thing about right wingers like Phillip and Kmac advocating 'rues' to make cars safer is that we already do that. We require that cars be registered, that operators be tested for proficiency and safety and have a license, and insurance and to obey laws regarding their use. We regulate the design and manufacture and distribution of cars. We test them for safety. We have governemnt and industry work together to improve vehicle safety through technologies Further when we find certain drivers or certain cars to be unsafe, we take steps to prevent those drivers from being on the road and we recall and fix the defective automobiles. We do none of that we guns, but we should. Not only do we do none of that with guns, the industry and gun rights extremist actively fight against developing training programs or even technologies such as smart guns and smart safes that would make firearms safer. It really is the stupidest thing they advocate by way of comparison.

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 06:35 PM
Straw man. Ad hom.

don't waste your time

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 06:36 PM
The Tin Man speakith!

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 06:38 PM
Straw man. Ad hom.wow

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 06:39 PM
Read and understand what you wrote Post 160.

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 06:53 PM
Tell me how to tell the difference? You've said some things which make me wonder which; feigned or otherwise1

Memphis Mike
02-21-2015, 06:55 PM
The blood of the dead and wounded can be poured on the hands of the NRA and anyone else that refuses to compromise and support tougher laws concerning gun ownership in this country.

"They'll take mah gunz only win they prized em from mah cold dade fangers!"

Bunch of ignorant yahoos....

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 07:14 PM
Yup, feigned ignorance for sure! YOU are obviously a minority here and if this reflects the attitude of those representing a heck of a lot of states, you are! I can co8unt on one hand the reps on the forum. I can't with the dems OR the independents.

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 07:25 PM
The blood of the dead and wounded can be poured on the hands of the NRA and anyone else that refuses to compromise and support tougher laws concerning gun ownership in this country.

"They'll take mah gunz only win they prized em from mah cold dade fangers!"

Bunch of ignorant yahoos....

every one who would rule others needs an enemy... Orwell showed us that

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 07:33 PM
i've no need of an enemy nor wish to rule others
i just don't want to get shot by some ignorant buffoon showing off his piece in a parking lot

Tom Wilkinson
02-21-2015, 07:37 PM
The dumbest thing about right wingers like Phillip and Kmac advocating 'rules' to make cars safer is that we already do that. We require that cars be registered, that operators be tested for proficiency and safety and have a license, and insurance and to obey laws regarding their use. We regulate the design and manufacture and distribution of cars. We test them for safety. We have governemnt and industry work together to improve vehicle safety through technologies Further when we find certain drivers or certain cars to be unsafe, we take steps to prevent those drivers from being on the road and we recall and fix the defective automobiles. We do none of that we guns, but we should. Not only do we do none of that with guns, the industry and gun rights extremist actively fight against developing training programs or even technologies such as smart guns and smart safes that would make firearms safer. It really is the stupidest thing they advocate by way of comparison.
Spot on!

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 08:46 PM
Opions are fine. I'm sure the democrats may question some but, your opinions ARE BACALLY MADE WITHOUT FACTS, OFTEN WITHOUT LINKS, and based on the BS O'Reilly spews even though he admits he's an entertainer and not a correspondent.

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 08:50 PM
Ha ha, what a classic. I have to head out to work now. Do behave. I will be back for that apology later

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 08:58 PM
FOX.. about as fair as a 30lbs. kid one one side and a granite boulder on the other. FOX has good ratings because some are glued to it and others turn to it for entertainment.

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 09:15 PM
Yup, feigned ignorance for sure! YOU are obviously a minority here and if this reflects the attitude of those representing a heck of a lot of states, you are! I can co8unt on one hand the reps on the forum. I can't with the dems OR the independents.


Leave the animal logos out of it... let's just stick to the political orientation, for those nice folks who participate from the other 95% of the world's population.

So... count me on that one hand that sits on Gengis Khan's side of the room (right of centre... well right).

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 09:17 PM
every one who would rule others needs an enemy... Orwell showed us that

Yes.... this gun debate really is a debate about controlling others, one way or another, isn't it?

The one million US gun deaths in the last 30 years are just a minor issue to be ignored, eh?

The Bigfella
02-21-2015, 09:19 PM
Hey Phillip, you rail against negative police behaviour all the time.

When are you finally going to realise that what drives that behaviour is the level of gun violence in your society?

There's a very highl correlation - guns on the streets - "bad" police behaviour

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 09:52 PM
Congratulations, you got one right------entertainment value only.Y>I'm glad you realize it!

Boater14
02-21-2015, 10:17 PM
ruling others.....nonsense. these goofs who discharge their guns by accident...can you picture them actually shooting at someone?

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 10:20 PM
Yup, by accident!

Steve McMahon
02-21-2015, 10:22 PM
Maybe its the other way around.

Not a chance. There are two types of cops in a'merica, the ones that are also right wing gun nuts, and the rest of them that are scared $hitless by the right wing gun nuts. Sadly, the very cops Phillip is constantly complaining about mostly belong to the former group. A viscous cycle.

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 10:57 PM
Not a chance. There are two types of cops in a'merica, the ones that are also right wing gun nuts, and the rest of them that are scared $hitless by the right wing gun nuts. Sadly, the very cops Phillip is constantly complaining about mostly belong to the former group. A viscous cycle.

and you know this, how, perfesser?

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 10:58 PM
No one does Paul. Don't waste too much time worrying about it though because the odds are very good you will never be shot. In fact, I find it hard to believe that it would even cross your mind, unless you live in the ghetto.

Paul is mongering fear... it's what he does

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2015, 11:01 PM
Built on and exploited where ever possible by the right!

Paul Pless
02-21-2015, 11:02 PM
No one does Paul. Don't waste too much time worrying about it though because the odds are very good you will never be shot. In fact, I find it hard to believe that it would even cross your mind, unless you live in the ghetto.

A friend of mine was shot this last November and died one month later when his life support was disconnected. It did not happen in a ghetto.

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 11:04 PM
A friend of mine was shot this last November and died one month later when his life support was disconnected. It did not happen in a ghetto.

too bad about your friend


how do you explain your commentary BEFORE November? what about NASCAR deaths?

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 11:10 PM
Don't they wear helmets? Wonder why, the left says they don't help save lives in accidents.

the left protects itself from inconvenience while devaluing life that doesn't help their agenda... it's always been about just whose ox is being gored... pretty simple

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 11:11 PM
Boy does that really increase your odds then. (NOT) Sorry to hear about your friend.

don't be that way... and get the details of the accident just to be sure

Tom Wilkinson
02-21-2015, 11:46 PM
the left protects itself from inconvenience while devaluing life that doesn't help their agenda... it's always been about just whose ox is being gored... pretty simple

Still on with the stupid helmet argument eh? That's really all you have? How many nascar drivers wear helmets when the drive normally. That's a group of people that certainly believes in safety gear, yet they don't wear it in normal driving. Hmm wonder why? Maybe cause it isn't providing much additional safety in normal driving. They wear them going 200 mph, slight difference.

Your dishonesty in pretending not to know the difference is noteworthy.

At least I practice what I preach. You wearing that helmet yet?? Seems it's possible that it's too late.

Phillip Allen
02-21-2015, 11:52 PM
Still on with the stupid helmet argument eh? That's really all you have? How many nascar drivers wear helmets when the drive normally. That's a group of people that certainly believes in safety gear, yet they don't wear it in normal driving. Hmm wonder why? Maybe cause it isn't providing much additional safety in normal driving. They wear them going 200 mph, slight difference.

Your dishonesty in pretending not to know the difference is noteworthy.

At least I practice what I preach. You wearing that helmet yet?? Seems it's possible that it's too late.

no dishonest at all... I simply exposed your dishonesty about saving lives... you don't mean it

Tom Wilkinson
02-21-2015, 11:58 PM
The reductions in automobiles continue while the deaths by firearms continue to increase.

I'm all for reasonable safety devices in cars. I don't beleive helmets are it. That doesn't mean i don't want to save lives. Care to show the data that helmets will save more lives. That's your argument, not mine. Back it up or shut up.

Do you wear one? Another question you won't answer. Stop being deliberately obtuse.

For me to be dishonest about saving lives I would have had to advance the argument in the first place. I did not do that. And my job is directly related to safety. I take it very seriously. Helmets are not the answer.

Can you point to a single group advancing the use of helmets in cards for safety. I'm guessing not.

Glen Longino
02-22-2015, 12:17 AM
no dishonest at all... I simply exposed your dishonesty about saving lives... you don't mean it

Bizzare !

Glen Longino
02-22-2015, 12:19 AM
"Stop being deliberately obtuse."

He can't, Tom! It's all he knows!

Paul Pless
02-22-2015, 12:59 AM
too bad about your friend

yeah


how do you explain your commentary BEFORE November? what about NASCAR deaths?

I used to hold very similar libertarian views to you Phillip, about a lot of things, not just guns. I've slowly evolved away from much of that over the last decade and a half. My upbringing in a large rural family included guns for sporting and hunting. As an adult I continued to hunt and target shoot and hand load and collect firearms. I had a close friend and employee that was the victim of a stalker and was sexually and physically assaulted by him - I would hate to see her or anyone in a similar situation have their ability to defend themself compromised. I even briefly carried for self defense myself - but having no real need for such it was quite a lot of trouble and even placed myself at greater risk of injury or death than if I had not been carrying. I engaged in my hobby legally, passing background checks and if I sold a gun I did so through a dealer so that a background check would be performed on the purchaser. I maintained a pistol permit. Beyond the minimum legal requirements, I also keep my guns in a vault, sought safety and proficiency training, and practice to stay proficient. You would think these are just common sense approaches to responsible gun ownership, but the approximate 31,000 firearms related deaths in the U.S. each year belie that. And the fact of the fact of the matter is, the things that I listed above aren't really burdensome. You do all those things Phillip. And you do them not because its law, but because they are the responsible thing to do. But there are thousands upon ten thousands of people out there that don't, and thus we get these stories, every day of babies killing themselves accidentally with their parents' guns, of unnecessary and ugly suicides*, and of course of gun violence. So yeah, I've evolved, mostly slowly, but at times that evolution has been punctuated loudly and accelerated by events such as the shooting of Gabby Giffords and the tragedy at Sandy Hook - both events likely preventable if we had reasonable protections against the mentally unfit from accessing guns.

And my stance on guns is that I want to continue to enjoy owning, carrying them, and using them in the future. I find laws restricting magazine capacity or so called assault weapons or suggestions to make semiauto handguns illegal, ridiculous and onerous. I feel similarly about totalitarian laws in some jurisdictions that seek to completely limit the ownership of guns to be unethical and actaully a true breach of our Second Amendment. I'd just want a cohesive law, across all states, that requires a background check and proficiency training to purchase a gun. Secure storage should be mandatory - and that can be via vault, lock, or electronic means. And gun owners should be required to have insurance and be both civilly and criminally liable for damages caused by their guns. I'd like to see stupid laws on both sides be done away with - things like the NRA supported law to limit the ability of the CDC to keep and study gun violence statistics. I feel that if we continue down the path that you advocate, of completely unrestricted access to guns, and the belligerence that you and others like you employ; then eventually the pendulum of public opinion will swing completely through what I think is reasonable and towards a ban and confiscation of guns - most likely as a reaction to some tragedy. I think like you, I find most reactionary legislation whether it be about guns or things like Homeland Security to bad in nature.

*Phillip, I'm not anti suicide, but suicide by gun is often a bad and messy way to go. And the suicide via gun of a child or young adult or young veteran, suffering from a temporary and treatable mental or emotional disorder is an unnecessary tragedy.

Glen Longino
02-22-2015, 03:17 AM
Profound and appreciated, Paul!

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 06:44 AM
A most succinct summation Paul, and now for the usual Georges Monbiot appendage with his usual.

Ha ha. Do you spend all your time around here trying to bait people, or have you ever tried to exercise your brain towards contributing to the discussion. You are capable of contributing, aren't you?

Peerie Maa
02-22-2015, 07:03 AM
Ian, stop stalking purri.

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 07:07 AM
Ian, stop stalking purri.

LOL

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 07:54 AM
yeah



I used to hold very similar libertarian views to you Phillip, about a lot of things, not just guns. I've slowly evolved away from much of that over the last decade and a half. My upbringing in a large rural family included guns for sporting and hunting. As an adult I continued to hunt and target shoot and hand load and collect firearms. I had a close friend and employee that was the victim of a stalker and was sexually and physically assaulted by him - I would hate to see her or anyone in a similar situation have their ability to defend themself compromised. I even briefly carried for self defense myself - but having no real need for such it was quite a lot of trouble and even placed myself at greater risk of injury or death than if I had not been carrying. I engaged in my hobby legally, passing background checks and if I sold a gun I did so through a dealer so that a background check would be performed on the purchaser. I maintained a pistol permit. Beyond the minimum legal requirements, I also keep my guns in a vault, sought safety and proficiency training, and practice to stay proficient. You would think these are just common sense approaches to responsible gun ownership, but the approximate 31,000 firearms related deaths in the U.S. each year belie that. And the fact of the fact of the matter is, the things that I listed above aren't really burdensome. You do all those things Phillip. And you do them not because its law, but because they are the responsible thing to do. But there are thousands upon ten thousands of people out there that don't, and thus we get these stories, every day of babies killing themselves accidentally with their parents' guns, of unnecessary and ugly suicides*, and of course of gun violence. So yeah, I've evolved, mostly slowly, but at times that evolution has been punctuated loudly and accelerated by events such as the shooting of Gabby Giffords and the tragedy at Sandy Hook - both events likely preventable if we had reasonable protections against the mentally unfit from accessing guns.

And my stance on guns is that I want to continue to enjoy owning, carrying them, and using them in the future. I find laws restricting magazine capacity or so called assault weapons or suggestions to make semiauto handguns illegal, ridiculous and onerous. I feel similarly about totalitarian laws in some jurisdictions that seek to completely limit the ownership of guns to be unethical and actaully a true breach of our Second Amendment. I'd just want a cohesive law, across all states, that requires a background check and proficiency training to purchase a gun. Secure storage should be mandatory - and that can be via vault, lock, or electronic means. And gun owners should be required to have insurance and be both civilly and criminally liable for damages caused by their guns. I'd like to see stupid laws on both sides be done away with - things like the NRA supported law to limit the ability of the CDC to keep and study gun violence statistics. I feel that if we continue down the path that you advocate, of completely unrestricted access to guns, and the belligerence that you and others like you employ; then eventually the pendulum of public opinion will swing completely through what I think is reasonable and towards a ban and confiscation of guns - most likely as a reaction to some tragedy. I think like you, I find most reactionary legislation whether it be about guns or things like Homeland Security to bad in nature.

*Phillip, I'm not anti suicide, but suicide by gun is often a bad and messy way to go. And the suicide via gun of a child or young adult or young veteran, suffering from a temporary and treatable mental or emotional disorder is an unnecessary tragedy.

That's perfect Paul!

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 08:04 AM
No one does Paul. Don't waste too much time worrying about it though because the odds are very good you will never be shot. In fact, I find it hard to believe that it would even cross your mind, unless you live in the ghetto.

Every 41st American male death for the last 30 years has been due to a gunshot. 2.5% of all male deaths over the last 30 years, in fact.

That adds to a massive number of deaths, compared to the situation in the civilised nations of the world.

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 08:06 AM
Are we going to beat this horse some more?

At least until you man (or woman) up and apologise for your uncalled for earlier slur.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 08:06 AM
Neigh!

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 08:15 AM
About half, give or take, were suicides. Very few were accidental.

IIRC, the propensity for suicides to be successfully enacted is significantly higher in situations where a firearm is present. I, for example, have a child who went through a significant depressive illness and considered suicide. If my rifles hadn't been appropriately secured, I'd have lost the kid. He came through that and has since done a great deal of work to help other youth through similar situations - to the extent that he was nominated as an Australian of the Year contender a couple of years back. He's saved several lives.... lives that would probably have been lost in the US.... with your firearms situation.

Many of those US lives lost, in the million gunshot deaths in the US in the last 30 years were murders.... people shot in domestic and neighbourhood disputes where the ready availability of unsecured firearms resulted in deaths, rather than a bloody nose.

Why do you tolerate such wanton waste of life. Don't you care about your fellow man?

John Smith
02-22-2015, 08:24 AM
Maybe its the other way around.

Can anyone come up with a list of unarmed white men shot by cops?

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 08:25 AM
Just how many of the murders were domestic violence and neighborhood disputes and how many were drug and gang related?I suspect, these are often combined!

John Smith
02-22-2015, 08:26 AM
A friend of mine was shot this last November and died one month later when his life support was disconnected. It did not happen in a ghetto.

I'm reminded of the ad some years back that went something like this: 46% of drugs are used in the poor neighborhoods. Where do you think the other 54% are used?

John Smith
02-22-2015, 08:27 AM
the left protects itself from inconvenience while devaluing life that doesn't help their agenda... it's always been about just whose ox is being gored... pretty simple

???????

John Smith
02-22-2015, 08:29 AM
The reductions in automobiles continue while the deaths by firearms continue to increase.

I'm all for reasonable safety devices in cars. I don't beleive helmets are it. That doesn't mean i don't want to save lives. Care to show the data that helmets will save more lives. That's your argument, not mine. Back it up or shut up.

Do you wear one? Another question you won't answer. Stop being deliberately obtuse.

For me to be dishonest about saving lives I would have had to advance the argument in the first place. I did not do that. And my job is directly related to safety. I take it very seriously. Helmets are not the answer.

Can you point to a single group advancing the use of helmets in cards for safety. I'm guessing not.

According to AAA, 1 out of 5 fatal auto accidents is caused by an unlicensed driver. A really good way to make cars safer would be to make them so they won't start without a valid driver's license. No one seems to want to take that leap.

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 08:32 AM
Just how many of the murders were domestic violence and neighborhood disputes and how many were drug and gang related?

Do your own research and stop deflecting. I did that work once before... Phillip couldn't stand the truth and deleted it. The answer was more domestic violence and neighbourhood disputes than drug and gang related. Get out there and do the research.

Oh yeah... where's that apology for your "BS" slur? Have you no integrity, no honour?

John Smith
02-22-2015, 08:33 AM
yeah



I used to hold very similar libertarian views to you Phillip, about a lot of things, not just guns. I've slowly evolved away from much of that over the last decade and a half. My upbringing in a large rural family included guns for sporting and hunting. As an adult I continued to hunt and target shoot and hand load and collect firearms. I had a close friend and employee that was the victim of a stalker and was sexually and physically assaulted by him - I would hate to see her or anyone in a similar situation have their ability to defend themself compromised. I even briefly carried for self defense myself - but having no real need for such it was quite a lot of trouble and even placed myself at greater risk of injury or death than if I had not been carrying. I engaged in my hobby legally, passing background checks and if I sold a gun I did so through a dealer so that a background check would be performed on the purchaser. I maintained a pistol permit. Beyond the minimum legal requirements, I also keep my guns in a vault, sought safety and proficiency training, and practice to stay proficient. You would think these are just common sense approaches to responsible gun ownership, but the approximate 31,000 firearms related deaths in the U.S. each year belie that. And the fact of the fact of the matter is, the things that I listed above aren't really burdensome. You do all those things Phillip. And you do them not because its law, but because they are the responsible thing to do. But there are thousands upon ten thousands of people out there that don't, and thus we get these stories, every day of babies killing themselves accidentally with their parents' guns, of unnecessary and ugly suicides*, and of course of gun violence. So yeah, I've evolved, mostly slowly, but at times that evolution has been punctuated loudly and accelerated by events such as the shooting of Gabby Giffords and the tragedy at Sandy Hook - both events likely preventable if we had reasonable protections against the mentally unfit from accessing guns.

And my stance on guns is that I want to continue to enjoy owning, carrying them, and using them in the future. I find laws restricting magazine capacity or so called assault weapons or suggestions to make semiauto handguns illegal, ridiculous and onerous. I feel similarly about totalitarian laws in some jurisdictions that seek to completely limit the ownership of guns to be unethical and actaully a true breach of our Second Amendment. I'd just want a cohesive law, across all states, that requires a background check and proficiency training to purchase a gun. Secure storage should be mandatory - and that can be via vault, lock, or electronic means. And gun owners should be required to have insurance and be both civilly and criminally liable for damages caused by their guns. I'd like to see stupid laws on both sides be done away with - things like the NRA supported law to limit the ability of the CDC to keep and study gun violence statistics. I feel that if we continue down the path that you advocate, of completely unrestricted access to guns, and the belligerence that you and others like you employ; then eventually the pendulum of public opinion will swing completely through what I think is reasonable and towards a ban and confiscation of guns - most likely as a reaction to some tragedy. I think like you, I find most reactionary legislation whether it be about guns or things like Homeland Security to bad in nature.

*Phillip, I'm not anti suicide, but suicide by gun is often a bad and messy way to go. And the suicide via gun of a child or young adult or young veteran, suffering from a temporary and treatable mental or emotional disorder is an unnecessary tragedy.

The ONLY part of this I can see being possible to enforce is holding the gun owner liable for damage his gun does.

I think background checks are a farce unless they're redone every year or two. AND, your law would have to cover all the guns purchased before the law is passed, and that would be a challenge.

John Smith
02-22-2015, 08:39 AM
Every 41st American male death for the last 30 years has been due to a gunshot. 2.5% of all male deaths over the last 30 years, in fact.

That adds to a massive number of deaths, compared to the situation in the civilised nations of the world.

And these numbers are compiled via guns already in the hands of the public. Passing laws on new gun purchases won't, seems to me, have any impact on these figures. In fact, as the legislation is working its way through the political system, gun sales will go up. By the time any law passes, the number of guns in the public's hands will increase by, let's say, 20% and the number of gun deaths a year would likely increase.

No one is more tired than I at the daily shootings. I just don't see any legislation that changes this. Our drug laws don't work. Prohibition didn't work. It's already quite illegal to shoot someone, and that law doesn't seem to work.

Personally, while we debate guns, ISIS, Ukraine, etc., the biggest danger we face, IMO, is Climate Change, and I really wish we'd address that, because I see it as a bigger problem, and one we might be able to do something about.

Bob Adams
02-22-2015, 08:44 AM
Every 41st American male death for the last 30 years has been due to a gunshot. 2.5% of all male deaths over the last 30 years, in fact.

That adds to a massive number of deaths, compared to the situation in the civilised nations of the world.

Bigfella, I'm not doubting you, but I would love to know your source for that (41) data. I've had difficulty replicating it.

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 08:45 AM
And these numbers are compiled via guns already in the hands of the public. Passing laws on new gun purchases won't, seems to me, have any impact on these figures. In fact, as the legislation is working its way through the political system, gun sales will go up. By the time any law passes, the number of guns in the public's hands will increase by, let's say, 20% and the number of gun deaths a year would likely increase.

No one is more tired than I at the daily shootings. I just don't see any legislation that changes this. Our drug laws don't work. Prohibition didn't work. It's already quite illegal to shoot someone, and that law doesn't seem to work.

Personally, while we debate guns, ISIS, Ukraine, etc., the biggest danger we face, IMO, is Climate Change, and I really wish we'd address that, because I see it as a bigger problem, and one we might be able to do something about.

One of the greatest strengths of the US, as a nation, is its inventiveness.

Innovate... don't throw your hands up in surrender.

Get off your arses and do something to save the lives of your young, your at-risk, your vulnerable.

The reality is that the vast majority of people will do what their society agrees to be in the public good. I've thrown in the "7% scum" figure before. Beyond that, 65% will always do the right thing... and those in between can go either way. Innovate... get the "in-betweeners" on side and make a difference, rather than just being another damn drone... like a few of the Old Mates around here.

John Smith
02-22-2015, 08:50 AM
IIRC, the propensity for suicides to be successfully enacted is significantly higher in situations where a firearm is present. I, for example, have a child who went through a significant depressive illness and considered suicide. If my rifles hadn't been appropriately secured, I'd have lost the kid. He came through that and has since done a great deal of work to help other youth through similar situations - to the extent that he was nominated as an Australian of the Year contender a couple of years back. He's saved several lives.... lives that would probably have been lost in the US.... with your firearms situation.

Many of those US lives lost, in the million gunshot deaths in the US in the last 30 years were murders.... people shot in domestic and neighbourhood disputes where the ready availability of unsecured firearms resulted in deaths, rather than a bloody nose.

Why do you tolerate such wanton waste of life. Don't you care about your fellow man?

This is how we've interpreted (wrongly IMO) the 2nd amendment and this is where we are, and if you can tell us how to get out of where we are, I'd love to hear/read your proposals.

Any law has to be enforceable. Unless you're going to support unannounced, unwarranted, searches of homes, I see no way to insure all guns are properly secured. Many of the larger shootings that make the news are done by people using weapons someone else purchased.

No one, as near as I can recall, has addressed my question of repeating background checks. A man at 25 may pass any background check. He gets his gun. Would he pass that same background check 10 years later?

I fear we are simply stuck with what we have. If we really wish to change it, perhaps the answer is providing the youth in poor neighborhoods a better hope of a better life. Maybe if they could made a decent wage flipping burgers it would help.

I think we should stop focusing on gun control, as I don't believe we can be successful. Too late for that. Maybe we should look at why people shoot other people and/or why people kill themselves. Might have more success going at the problem that way.

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 08:52 AM
Probably aren't any.

certainly there are examples... also in the UK and Canada... some were in the video I linked that everyone refused to look at... if you didn't see them, the fault lies with those who place their hands over their virtual ears and eyes...

John Smith
02-22-2015, 08:55 AM
One of the greatest strengths of the US, as a nation, is its inventiveness.

Innovate... don't throw your hands up in surrender.

Get off your arses and do something to save the lives of your young, your at-risk, your vulnerable.

The reality is that the vast majority of people will do what their society agrees to be in the public good. I've thrown in the "7% scum" figure before. Beyond that, 65% will always do the right thing... and those in between can go either way. Innovate... get the "in-betweeners" on side and make a difference, rather than just being another damn drone... like a few of the Old Mates around here.

There are some problems to which there is no solution. I believe this is one of them. At least, IMO, the solution isn't in controlling the guns, as that horse is long out of the barn. The answer, if there is one, as I've said, lies in looking at the "why" people shoot other people or themselves.

And, there is a difference. If we decided to make every motor vehicle need a valid license in order to start the engine, and we began that with vehicles built in 2018, by 2038 most vehicles on the road would be so equipped, as cars wear out in two decades, usually. Guns don't wear out. In practical terms, every gun manufactured in the last 150 years is still functional.

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 08:56 AM
Bigfella, I'm not doubting you, but I would love to know your source for that (41) data. I've had difficulty replicating it.

The data was compiled 100% from CDC data. Total deaths - split male and female. Total gun deaths - split male and female.

There's absolutely nothing shonky about it... but to replicate it takes time to assemble the data. The firearms deaths have to be added together... accidental deaths, police shootings (about 300 a year - or 1% of the total), murders... and yes, suicides. I'll back it to the hilt... and when someone wants to tell me its BS... I'll call him on it. Macca owes me an apology... if he's got any integrity or honor.

I've posted the full data before, but the latest update (about 5 years more current than I have on this PC) is at home... 15 hours flying time away. I'll hook up my backup disk and see if I can find a more up-to-date set of data here.... after the cleaning team leave :D

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 08:58 AM
certainly there are examples... also in the UK and Canada... some were in the video I linked that everyone refused to look at... if you didn't see them, the fault lies with those who place their hands over their virtual ears and eyes...

I didn't look at it because you told everyone to NOT look at it. How perverse can you get? Don't answer that... I think we already know the answer

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 09:04 AM
Bigfella deliberately didn't label the chart in hopes of passing it off as accidental deaths. When asked to explain he would not. IMHO it was deceitful at best.

I didn't label that data because it was cut and pasted out of Excel, which often doesn't format at all on this forum. It formatted well enough to be obvious.

If you want to know about the quantum of accidental deaths... that's easy. The highest its been in a year - since around 1980 - is around the 2,000 deaths a year mark, off the top of my head. I'll look it up and report back

If you couldn't work out what it was, then I'm much more informed as to your capacity and capability with respect to being able to interpret data and indeed your abilities, or otherwise, to carry out research of your own.

To be called deceitful by you reminds me of an old saying. Takes one to know one... but in this case, I'd rather not be judged by your standards, thank you. Where's that apology you owe me?

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 09:09 AM
BF left out women, included cops shooting children for sport, most importantly... suicides which don't belong in the comparison but the temptation to 'doctor' his number must have been overpowering

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 09:11 AM
Ah, yes. 2004 unintentional deaths, in 1979. Of those, 1,715 were males.

While I think about it, remember, the number of shootings has been increasing at a much higher rate than deaths. That's due to medical treatment advances and nothing but that. You guys are getting worse.

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 09:14 AM
BF,you owe this forum an apology. You were called out and enough info has been give for everyone to make their own conclusions. As for your overwhelming need for an apology----grow up son.

he doesn't really want an apology... he's is abusive to others and wants to humiliate them... ask Meli

Bob Adams
02-22-2015, 09:14 AM
BF left out women, included cops shooting children for sport, most importantly... suicides which don't belong in the comparison but the temptation to 'doctor' his number must have been overpowering

Dammit Phillip, knock it off. Why would you say something like that. If you really believe it, I strongly suggest you seek some counseling.

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 09:15 AM
BF left out women, included cops shooting children for sport, most importantly... suicides which don't belong in the comparison but the temptation to 'doctor' his number must have been overpowering

I didn't leave out women. I've always answered that question when its been asked. The overall figure, including women, is that every 67th death in the US in the last 30 years has been due to gunshots. The figure for males is every 41st death, or 2.5% of male deaths.

Get over it Phillip... them's the facts. Aren't you bright enough to look the numbers up yourself?

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 09:16 AM
here ya go, Bob... read it

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/15-year-old-bystander-shot-police-nearby-toy-gun/

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 09:16 AM
BF,you owe this forum an apology. You were called out and enough info has been give for everyone to make their own conclusions. As for your overwhelming need for an apology----grow up son.

Ha ha. You can't back up your bluster, can you?

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 09:17 AM
I didn't leave out women. I've always answered that question when its been asked. The overall figure, including women, is that every 67th death in the US in the last 30 years has been due to gunshots. The figure for males is every 41st death, or 2.5% of male deaths.

Get over it Phillip... them's the facts. Aren't you bright enough to look the numbers up yourself?

ah yes... the old' "you didn't ask specifically" ploy :)

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 09:19 AM
he doesn't really want an apology... he's is abusive to others and wants to humiliate them... ask Meli

Who?

I'm not humiliating anyone. I've asked him to apologise for calling my presentation of facts "BS". I can back up the statistics I presented. He asked for a link to the source. I provided it. He's gone quiet on that... in case you didn't notice. Why don't you go back and have a look at that source. You know how to build something from bricks of data, don't you?

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 09:20 AM
Who?

I'm not humiliating anyone. I've asked him to apologise for calling my presentation of facts "BS". I can back up the statistics I presented. He asked for a link to the source. I provided it. He's gone quiet on that... in case you didn't notice. Why don't you go back and have a look at that source. You know how to build something from bricks of data, don't you?

build something?

Bob Adams
02-22-2015, 09:21 AM
here ya go, Bob... read it

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/15-year-old-bystander-shot-police-nearby-toy-gun/


Gee it's on the internet, it must be true. Phillip, let me give you a bit of advise, think for yourself. Sport? Didn't read that anywhere. I hope you never need a police officer's help, I doubt you could lower yourself to accept it.

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 09:23 AM
Gee it's on the internet, it must be true. Phillip, let me give you a bit of advise, think for yourself. Sport? Didn't read that anywhere. I hope you never need a police officer's help, I doubt you could lower yourself to accept it.

on the internet = not true?... everything here is on the internet, so, not true, including what you say, etc?

heck, Wooden Boat is on the internet

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 09:24 AM
He's dropped pantie and showed his a$$.

he's been doing that for years... he's quite persistent at it

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 09:26 AM
he's been doing that for years... he's quite persistent at it

You've never managed to kick it. What's that IQ again? Didn't you tell us it was 141?

Bob Adams
02-22-2015, 09:35 AM
on the internet = not true?... everything here is on the internet, so, not true, including what you say, etc?

heck, Wooden Boat is on the internet

What I mean, and you know it, is you need to process what you read in your own mind. As to that rag you linked to, if you really believe that crap you need to move to another country. Oh, and by the way, the "shoot for sport" portion is not written in the linked "article", those words are your fabrication.Definitely confirms your cop hating status.

RonW
02-22-2015, 09:44 AM
john Smith says, but just doesn't know............
No one, as near as I can recall, has addressed my question of repeating background checks. A man at 25 may pass any background check. He gets his gun. Would he pass that same background check 10 years later?

Background check to purchase a firearm are only good for 30 days.......Now you can recall that you have been told.........



Any law has to be enforceable. Unless you're going to support unannounced, unwarranted, searches of homes, I see no way to insure all guns are properly secured.

People who make such radical statements as above, obviously do not appreciate their citizenship or have the basic understanding of why we had a revolutionary war and established a representative republic form of government and a bill of rights.

This is america, not china or north korea, obviously you don't understand that or care. Your suggestion (more then once ) above will not fly and there will be another revolution once it is tried.
And all of a sudden like, the situation at the bundy ranch will be everywhere, and you will see the G- men backing up which will lead to a collapse of the government .
And that is what you are advocating out of I think ignorance of the subject itself.

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 09:47 AM
Thanks for sharing your story. It really sheds a lot of light on your behavioral issues.

What behavioural issues do you mean?

Peerie Maa
02-22-2015, 10:23 AM
on the internet = not true?... everything here is on the internet, so, not true, including what you say, etc?

heck, Wooden Boat is on the internet

Phillip read my tag line.

Then read it again.

Then think about what it means. OK?

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 10:27 AM
Phillip read my tag line.

Then read it again.

Then think about what it means. OK?

Are you trying to inflict pain? Isn't that against forum rules?

Paul Pless
02-22-2015, 10:41 AM
when one reads through these threads, its amazing how mostly civil the tone is of those who stand on the side of increasing gun regulation and how often ugly, rude, and disingenuous the replies are from the pro gun side

CWSmith
02-22-2015, 10:54 AM
when one reads through these threads, its amazing how mostly civil the tone is of those who stand on the side of increasing gun regulation and how often ugly, rude, and disingenuous the replies are from the pro gun side

I've been noticing this for some time and it extends beyond the current topic. Some people just don't know how, or want, to have mature conversations. It's sad, but this is where anonymous forums go.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 10:58 AM
Some find it their only avenue to strike back. SAD!

RonW
02-22-2015, 10:59 AM
when one reads through these threads, its amazing how mostly civil the tone is of those who stand on the side of increasing gun regulation and how often ugly, rude, and disingenuous the replies are from the pro gun side

I have also noticed this, it seems that the left (liberals/progressives ) always seem so polite and willing to discuss the subject in a calm manner and more then willing to compromise especially when it comes to gun control, abortions, climate change, gay marriage, or higher taxes and more social benefits.

But the right seems to be stubborn and resistant to such minor suggestions...............:ycool:

Shang
02-22-2015, 11:27 AM
And the right-wingnuts appear to have difficulties staying on topic.

Here are some more incidents that took place while this discussion was going on.

Hiker accidentally shot in South Mountain Park in Phoenix
Posted: Feb 21, 2015 1:00 PM CST Updated: Feb 21, 2015 1:06 PM CST
PHOENIX (AP) - Police say a man shot while hiking in south Phoenix was likely hit by a stray bullet from a private gun club.
Phoenix police Sgt. Vince Lewis says the 35-year-old hiker was treated for a non-life-threatening injury Saturday morning at South Mountain Park.
Lewis says the hiker was in an unauthorized portion of the park at the time of the shooting.
He says there is a private gun club at the base of the mountain.
Police say nobody they've spoken with recalls seeing any other hiker in that area.
South Mountain Park is considered the largest municipal park in the U.S. and is a popular hiking spot

Accidental shooting in Madison triggers MATC campus lockdown
By Associated Press
Feb. 21, 2015
Madison — An accidental shooting at a Madison blood bank led to a lockdown at a nearby college campus.
Police say a man who went to the Interstate Plasma and Blood Center Friday "to conduct business" had a gun in his clothing that accidentally went off. Police say his injury was not life threatening, and he ran away.
That led to an hourlong lockdown across the street at Madison Area Technical College's Truax Campus, which ended about 2 p.m.
At least one other nearby school and business also went into lockdown mode, but police say it doesn't appear that the man threatened anybody or entered any schools.
Police later took a suspect into custody.

Officer accidentally shoots himself in leg at Bridgeview courthouse
Posted: Feb 18, 2015 10:06 AM CST Updated: Feb 18, 2015 12:16 PM CST
BRIDGEVIEW, Ill. (FOX 32 News) -
A Chicago Police officer accidentally shot himself in the leg at the Bridgeview courthouse Tuesday morning.*
At 9:40 a.m., an alarm malfunctioned at the Cook County courthouse at 10220 S. 76th Ave. in Bridgeview, prompting an evacuation.
While the building was being evacuated, an Chicago Police officer went to get his revolver from a locker. The firearm accidentally discharged and hit the officer in the leg.
The officer is expected to be OK and was taken to a local hospital,
The courthouse has returned to normal operations, according to the sheriff's office.

Peerie Maa
02-22-2015, 11:28 AM
Are you trying to inflict pain? Isn't that against forum rules?

As with all exercise, no pain - no gain.

George Jung
02-22-2015, 11:47 AM
yeah



I used to hold very similar libertarian views to you Phillip, about a lot of things, not just guns. I've slowly evolved away from much of that over the last decade and a half. My upbringing in a large rural family included guns for sporting and hunting. As an adult I continued to hunt and target shoot and hand load and collect firearms. I had a close friend and employee that was the victim of a stalker and was sexually and physically assaulted by him - I would hate to see her or anyone in a similar situation have their ability to defend themself compromised. I even briefly carried for self defense myself - but having no real need for such it was quite a lot of trouble and even placed myself at greater risk of injury or death than if I had not been carrying. I engaged in my hobby legally, passing background checks and if I sold a gun I did so through a dealer so that a background check would be performed on the purchaser. I maintained a pistol permit. Beyond the minimum legal requirements, I also keep my guns in a vault, sought safety and proficiency training, and practice to stay proficient. You would think these are just common sense approaches to responsible gun ownership, but the approximate 31,000 firearms related deaths in the U.S. each year belie that. And the fact of the fact of the matter is, the things that I listed above aren't really burdensome. You do all those things Phillip. And you do them not because its law, but because they are the responsible thing to do. But there are thousands upon ten thousands of people out there that don't, and thus we get these stories, every day of babies killing themselves accidentally with their parents' guns, of unnecessary and ugly suicides*, and of course of gun violence. So yeah, I've evolved, mostly slowly, but at times that evolution has been punctuated loudly and accelerated by events such as the shooting of Gabby Giffords and the tragedy at Sandy Hook - both events likely preventable if we had reasonable protections against the mentally unfit from accessing guns.

And my stance on guns is that I want to continue to enjoy owning, carrying them, and using them in the future. I find laws restricting magazine capacity or so called assault weapons or suggestions to make semiauto handguns illegal, ridiculous and onerous. I feel similarly about totalitarian laws in some jurisdictions that seek to completely limit the ownership of guns to be unethical and actaully a true breach of our Second Amendment. I'd just want a cohesive law, across all states, that requires a background check and proficiency training to purchase a gun. Secure storage should be mandatory - and that can be via vault, lock, or electronic means. And gun owners should be required to have insurance and be both civilly and criminally liable for damages caused by their guns. I'd like to see stupid laws on both sides be done away with - things like the NRA supported law to limit the ability of the CDC to keep and study gun violence statistics. I feel that if we continue down the path that you advocate, of completely unrestricted access to guns, and the belligerence that you and others like you employ; then eventually the pendulum of public opinion will swing completely through what I think is reasonable and towards a ban and confiscation of guns - most likely as a reaction to some tragedy. I think like you, I find most reactionary legislation whether it be about guns or things like Homeland Security to bad in nature.

*Phillip, I'm not anti suicide, but suicide by gun is often a bad and messy way to go. And the suicide via gun of a child or young adult or young veteran, suffering from a temporary and treatable mental or emotional disorder is an unnecessary tragedy.


Nicely summarized, and couldn't help but notice - essentially ignored by Phillip and KMacdonald. I didn't have the energy/interest to dig through the whole thread - but the last two pages are pretty bizarre. A few of our members need to get counseling (really. Not kidding on that). I'm surprised they haven't been sent packing for a vacation.

RonW
02-22-2015, 12:02 PM
Nicely summarized, and couldn't help but notice - essentially ignored by Phillip and KMacdonald. I didn't have the energy/interest to dig through the whole thread - but the last two pages are pretty bizarre. A few of our members need to get counseling (really. Not kidding on that). I'm surprised they haven't been sent packing for a vacation.

Wouldn't it be such a wonderful world if we all thought just alike, and behaved in a fashion to never offend others, and really there would be no need to offend others because we all are just alike. We could all wear the same clothes, live in the same size and shape homes and even painted the same, and yep drive the same size and color of vehicles.

We could eliminate all conflicts, drastically reduce costs in all areas. Because we all are the same..
And those that don't conform or fit in the mold, well they just can go on vacation and be gone. Maybe they could be recycled or even sent to a re-education camp.

Yep it would be wonderful, if only we all where the same............just like george jung.......

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 12:10 PM
Nicely summarized, and couldn't help but notice - essentially ignored by Phillip and KMacdonald. I didn't have the energy/interest to dig through the whole thread - but the last two pages are pretty bizarre. A few of our members need to get counseling (really. Not kidding on that). I'm surprised they haven't been sent packing for a vacation.

Strewth... that's what some of 'em want... attention seeking. Don't push the button on 'em. Leave their drivel there, please.

Shang
02-22-2015, 12:17 PM
Maybe I should re-title this thread: "Hate to say this, but another shooting accident by careless, unlucky, or stupid gun owner."

Wisconsin Accidental Shooting - Immediate Arrest
A man who told police that he accidentally shot a friend through the seat of a car Friday after he dropped a gun was charged Tuesday with first-degree reckless injury.
Christopher L. Jackson Jr., 20, of Fitchburg, also was charged with carrying a concealed weapon and possession of a firearm by a person adjudged delinquent of a felony.
According to a criminal complaint, Jackson was in the back seat of a car in the parking lot of Auto Zone, 4627 Verona Road, when, he told police, he dropped a gun he was carrying, causing it to go off when it hit the floor of the car. He denied pulling the trigger on the gun, the complaint states.

POLICE: Shooting reported near NBHS accidental
Posted: Feb 20, 2015 2:32 PM CST
LELAND, NC (WECT) -
Leland police detectives have determined a shooting near North Brunswick High School did not occur as it was originally reported to police.
The shooting happened in the morning of February 4, 2015. At the time, police believed a student was shot on Basin Street. Police were looking for two male suspects in connection with the shooting.
The 911 calls revealed the teen suffered a gunshot wound to his arm. He was treated and released from New Hanover Regional Medical Center.

Denver police: Man hospitalized after accidentally shooting himself
Monday, 16 February 2015*(6 days ago)
A man was hospitalized in Denver on Monday morning after he accidentally shot himself in the hand, police said.



Erie man dies after accidentally shooting himself with pellet rifle
A 62-year-old Erie man died Saturday after accidently shooting himself in the chest with a pellet rifle typically used to kill large rodents.
Denver Post 6 days ago - US

Calcasieu Parish toddler killed following accidental shooting
Deputies say a 3-year old girl was killed after accidentally shooting herself.
It happened on February 9, 2015, around 7:00 p.m. *on Arsene Road.*
Deputies say*the girl's father had been cleaning his guns in the living room during the day while his wife and children were gone and did not put them up before leaving for work. When the mother returned home with the three children, ages 1, 2, and 3, the 3 year old girl found one of the loaded guns, accidentally causing the gun to fire, shooting herself.

The Bigfella
02-22-2015, 12:30 PM
I seem to recall Old Mate telling us that these aren't gunshot victims.

Erie man dies after accidentally shooting himself with pellet rifle
A 62-year-old Erie man died Saturday after accidently shooting himself in the chest with a pellet rifle typically used to kill large rodents.
Denver Post 6 days ago - US

George Jung
02-22-2015, 12:44 PM
Wouldn't it be such a wonderful world if we all thought ......

You should've stopped right there.... 'missed it by this much', old boy!

Peerie Maa
02-22-2015, 01:03 PM
Nicely summarized, and couldn't help but notice - essentially ignored by Phillip and KMacdonald. I didn't have the energy/interest to dig through the whole thread - but the last two pages are pretty bizarre. A few of our members need to get counseling (really. Not kidding on that). I'm surprised they haven't been sent packing for a vacation.

I find it quite saddening that there are two or three posting to these two gun threads who are quite content that thousands of Americans kill other Americans with guns every year, one has been honest enough to spell it out, providing that the % is low.

Now these are outliers, what could be called the nutty fringe, but the problem is that for every one willing to say it there are orders of magnitude more who think it. It would appear that the US is badly screwed up.

George Jung
02-22-2015, 01:05 PM
I find it quite saddening that there are two or three posting to these two gun threads who are quite content that thousands of Americans kill other Americans with guns every year, one has been honest enough to spell it out, providing that the % is low.

Now these are outliers, what could be called the nutty fringe, but the problem is that for every one willing to say it there are orders of magnitude more who think it. It would appear that the US is badly screwed up.


You're being kind. I'd say 'on a variety of issues/levels'.

RonW
02-22-2015, 01:46 PM
How many of you anti- gunners are willing to supported unwarranted, unannounced searches of homes and autos as a effort to control gun law violations, and safety in an attempt to save lives ?

CWSmith
02-22-2015, 01:50 PM
How many of you anti- gunners are willing to supported unwarranted, unannounced searches of homes and autos as a effort to control gun law violations, and safety in an attempt to save lives ?

Maybe you should start by telling us who, if anyone, has suggested it? This seems to be a red herring, a complete fabrication, intended to distract people from the real discussion.

Norman Bernstein
02-22-2015, 01:58 PM
How many of you anti- gunners are willing to supported unwarranted, unannounced searches of homes and autos as a effort to control gun law violations, and safety in an attempt to save lives ?

Has anyone actually advocated "unwarranted, unannounced searches of homes and autos as a effort to control gun law violations"?

Or have you just constructed the most preposterous strawman in the history of the bilge?

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 02:00 PM
Has anyone actually advocated "unwarranted, unannounced searches of homes and autos as a effort to control gun law violations"?

Or have you just constructed the most preposterous strawman in the history of the bilge?

yes

Old Dryfoot
02-22-2015, 02:06 PM
Has anyone actually advocated "unwarranted, unannounced searches of homes and autos as a effort to control gun law violations"?

Or have you just constructed the most preposterous strawman in the history of the bilge?


yes

Do you recall those extreme positions I mentioned? The ones that should be ignored? Well, "unwarranted, unannounced searches of homes and autos. . ." would fall into that category. I think you know that too.

RonW
02-22-2015, 02:07 PM
Maybe you should start by telling us who, if anyone, has suggested it? This seems to be a red herring, a complete fabrication, intended to distract people from the real discussion.


Has anyone actually advocated "unwarranted, unannounced searches of homes and autos as a effort to control gun law violations"?

Or have you just constructed the most preposterous strawman in the history of the bilge?

Yes post # 234 by John Smith which says --
Any law has to be enforceable. Unless you're going to support unannounced, unwarranted, searches of homes, I see no way to insure all guns are properly secured. Many of the larger shootings that make the news are done by people using weapons someone else purchased.


And this isn't the first time he has made the statement... Maybe some of you need to rethink, for what you wish for..

Peerie Maa
02-22-2015, 02:07 PM
How many of you anti- gunners are willing to supported unwarranted, unannounced searches of homes and autos as a effort to control gun law violations, and safety in an attempt to save lives ?

Why on earth do you believe that they would be unwarranted? Pure fearmongering.
Are any house searches in the States allowed with out due process of obtaining a warrant? No? Thought so.

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 02:15 PM
Yes post # 234 by John Smith which says --

And this isn't the first time he has made the statement... Maybe some of you need to rethink, for what you wish for..

this thread isn't the ONLY thread, either

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 02:15 PM
Why on earth do you believe that they would be unwarranted? Pure fearmongering.
Are any house searches in the States allowed with out due process of obtaining a warrant? No? Thought so.

frequently

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 02:18 PM
Link!!!!

Old Dryfoot
02-22-2015, 02:23 PM
frequently

Ok, got proof? Or is like the Walmart thread and just another bit of baseless rhetoric?

Peerie Maa
02-22-2015, 02:27 PM
frequently

OK, where and when?

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 02:34 PM
OK, where and when?

all over this country and every day... can't figure it out?

Peerie Maa
02-22-2015, 02:38 PM
all over this country and every day... can't figure it out?

In which case you must be able to quote and link to some instances. Yes? Go on then, do it.

Bob Adams
02-22-2015, 02:39 PM
OK, where and when?

He gets his "news" here. Take a quick look and all will be clear. A quick look was all I could stand.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 02:39 PM
In which case you must be able to quote and link to some instances. Yes? Go on then, do it.

I don't need to... you either already know or will evade the truth... just go ahead and call me names, you are going to do it anyway

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 02:43 PM
So, in other words, you don't have proof, nor a link! Just ADMIT IT PHILLIP and move elsewhere.

Peerie Maa
02-22-2015, 02:44 PM
I don't need to... you either already know or will evade the truth... just go ahead and call me names, you are going to do it anyway

Hey, how would I know? I'm the other side of the pond remember? Our news media are good, but they don't report everything that happens in the US. You are going to have to back up your statement, 'cos there is no way I can test it from here, now is there?

So go for it, from your confident posting it can't be that hard.

RonW
02-22-2015, 02:49 PM
Why on earth do you believe that they would be unwarranted? Pure fearmongering.
Are any house searches in the States allowed with out due process of obtaining a warrant? No? Thought so.

Yes, did you ever hear of the patriot act ?

Old Dryfoot
02-22-2015, 02:50 PM
I don't need to... you either already know or will evade the truth... just go ahead and call me names, you are going to do it anyway

Just going to play the victim card then?

You ALWAYS demand that other proved proof for their statements, why don't you try it for once?

Phillip Allen
02-22-2015, 02:50 PM
Yes, did you ever hear of the patriot act ?

not on his side of the pond, apparently

Old Dryfoot
02-22-2015, 02:52 PM
Yes, did you ever hear of the patriot act ?

How about you then? Got proof? Phillip can't provide any, maybe you can.

CWSmith
02-22-2015, 02:56 PM
Any law has to be enforceable. Unless you're going to support unannounced, unwarranted, searches of homes, I see no way to insure all guns are properly secured. Many of the larger shootings that make the news are done by people using weapons someone else purchased.


Yes post # 234 by John Smith which says --

And this isn't the first time he has made the statement... Maybe some of you need to rethink, for what you wish for..

Actually, if you read John's post more carefully I think you will find that he does not advocate for random searches. John misses the point. Laws themselves do not prevent crime. The enforcement of laws punishes criminals, and the punishment is suppose to provide a disincentive to crime. While it may not work on the hard core gangsters who expect to die young, it may work in nitwits who carry loaded guns in their bra or jock strap.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 02:56 PM
Ron.. Provisions of the patriot act which initially was signed by ummm, guess who?

Opponents of the law have criticized its authorization of indefinite detentions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indefinite_detention_without_trial) of immigrants; the permission given law enforcement officers to search a home or business without the owner's or the occupant's consent or knowledge; the expanded use of National Security Letters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letters), which allows the Federal Bureau of Investigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Bureau_of_Investigation) (FBI) to search telephone, e-mail, and financial records without a court order; and the expanded access of law enforcement agencies to business records, including library and financial records. Since its passage, several legal challenges have been brought against the act, and Federal courts have ruled that a number of provisions are unconstitutional.

I don't see any mention here of any forced entries of anyone's home without a warrant here. Do you?

Peerie Maa
02-22-2015, 02:56 PM
Yes, did you ever hear of the patriot act ?

You mean this : http://www.justice.gov/archive/ll/highlights.htm


Allows law enforcement officials to obtain a search warrant anywhere a terrorist-related activity occurred. Before the Patriot Act, law enforcement personnel were required to obtain a search warrant in the district where they intended to conduct a search. However, modern terrorism investigations often span a number of districts, and officers therefore had to obtain multiple warrants in multiple jurisdictions, creating unnecessary delays. The Act provides that warrants can be obtained in any district in which terrorism-related activities occurred, regardless of where they will be executed. This provision does not change the standards governing the availability of a search warrant, but streamlines the search-warrant process.

Nope, that can't be it. It says "obtain search warrant".

Shang
02-22-2015, 03:14 PM
I don't need to... you either already know or will evade the truth... just go ahead and call me names, you are going to do it anyway

I don't see where anyone is calling you names, it's just that you made an improbable statement, then when asked to provide authentication you reiterated the statement.
Post a citation from a reputable source which supports your stance, and the conversation can continue.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 03:17 PM
The end is in sight!

RonW
02-22-2015, 03:17 PM
How about you then? Got proof? Phillip can't provide any, maybe you can.

That took almost 2 minutes.....................read through the page, it is there...

https://www.aclu.org/national-security/surveillance-under-usa-patriot-act

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 03:20 PM
Ron...Your article says nothing about breaking in someone's house without a warrant does it?

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 03:22 PM
Until they get sick!

RonW
02-22-2015, 03:25 PM
Ron...Your article says nothing about breaking in someone's house without a warrant does it?


2. More secret searches

For centuries, common law has required that the government can't go into your property without telling you, and must therefore give you notice before it executes a search. That "knock and announce" principle has long been recognized as a part of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution.

The Patriot Act, however, unconstitutionally amends the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure to allow the government to conduct searches without notifying the subjects, at least until long after the search has been executed. This means that the government can enter a house, apartment or office with a search warrant when the occupants are away, search through their property, take photographs, and in some cases even seize property - and not tell them until later.

Notice is a crucial check on the government's power because it forces the authorities to operate in the open, and allows the subject of searches to protect their Fourth Amendment rights. For example, it allows them to point out irregularities in a warrant, such as the fact that the police are at the wrong address, or that the scope of the warrant is being exceeded (for example, by rifling through dresser drawers in a search for a stolen car). Search warrants often contain limits on what may be searched, but when the searching officers have complete and unsupervised discretion over a search, a property owner cannot defend his or her rights.


Judicial oversight of these new powers is essentially non-existent. The government must only certify to a judge - with no need for evidence or proof - that such a search meets the statute's broad criteria, and the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.

You read nothing........just blasted away as usual.......

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2015, 03:37 PM
You read nothing........just blasted away as usual.......Fine! You must be GLAD GWBush signed it!

Steve McMahon
02-22-2015, 03:37 PM
I guess it comes down to how much you want government to hold your hand thru life.

Or, how much we need the government to put some controls on stupid people.

Old Dryfoot
02-22-2015, 03:41 PM
You read nothing........just blasted away as usual.......

Really? REALLY???

Maybe you should read it before making accusations. Unbelievable... and you posted it too!

"This means that the government can enter a house, apartment or office with a search warrant"

Old Dryfoot
02-22-2015, 03:42 PM
Ready----fire-----aim

See above!

Old Dryfoot
02-22-2015, 04:01 PM
Ron? KMac? What's the matter. . . facts got your tongue?

RonW
02-22-2015, 04:24 PM
Ron? KMac? What's the matter. . . facts got your tongue?

No actually I have been gone, ...So did you read where the judge can't refuse the request for a search warrant?

here --
The government must only certify to a judge - with no need for evidence or proof - that such a search meets the statute's broad criteria, and the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.

Now I can dig deeper and show you where under the patriot act and terrorism throws the 4th out the window.......and did you read wherer the homeowner does not have to be informed,..there's more...