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Jim Ledger
02-19-2015, 09:58 AM
I'm making the cockpit sole on my catboat. The plans indicate a hatch aft of the engine box. There's a nice bit of storage space under the sole that would be a shame to do without. Unfortunately, I don't know a reasonable way to construct, in solid wood. a leakproof flush hatch. Not green water leakproof, just something that won't leak rainwater into the bilge.

An alternative could be a hatch with a low raised coaming, but this might interfere with any ballroom dancing going on while lying at anchor.

I can imagine that this problem has been considered at length by many here.

All thoughts welcome.

P.L.Lenihan
02-19-2015, 10:06 AM
I'm making the cockpit sole on my catboat. The plans indicate a hatch aft of the engine box. There's a nice bit of storage space under the sole that would be a shame to do without. Unfortunately, I don't know a reasonable way to construct, in solid wood. a leakproof flush hatch. Not green water leakproof, just something that won't leak rainwater into the bilge.

An alternative could be a hatch with a low raised coaming, but this might interfere with any ballroom dancing going on while lying at anchor.

I can imagine that this problem has been considered at length by many here.

All thoughts welcome.

Good Morning Mr.Ledger.

Yes, that cockpit has ballroom dancing all over it! I would go with the low raised coaming nevertheless and to ensure neither my size 12's or her glass toes never snub into it, I'd lay me down a beautiful teak grating,no higher than the hatch and fitted to be easily removable and with enough clearance to open that hatch to get to the champagne stash.That way you could even do some dancing in the rain and never worry about puddles!


Cheers!


Peter

StevenBauer
02-19-2015, 10:10 AM
Maybe some sort of commercial fishing boat hatch with a wooden cover to hide it?

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/hatches-commercial/2,1191.html

Steven

P.L.Lenihan
02-19-2015, 10:15 AM
Maybe some sort of commercial fishing boat hatch with a wooden cover to hide it?

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/hatches-commercial/2,1191.html

Steven

Oh my...Steven...are you...ahem...suggesting Mr.Ledger actually...cough,cough...bu...b...bbbu...oh hell, purchase something like a commercial hatch which will forever clash with his sterling all wooden companionway hatch? EEEEK! Where's the soap!!!


Cheers!



Peter

Canoez
02-19-2015, 10:20 AM
What, no cast bronze hatch with a gasket? Textured surface and dogs around the edges? (Just kidding! Really!)

Figment
02-19-2015, 10:52 AM
Is the sole above the waterline? (can you do a normal-looking hatch with a hidden raingutter)

StevenBauer
02-19-2015, 11:46 AM
Oh my...Steven...are you...ahem...suggesting Mr.Ledger actually...cough,cough...bu...b...bbbu...oh hell, purchase something like a commercial hatch which will forever clash with his sterling all wooden companionway hatch? EEEEK! Where's the soap!!!


Cheers!



Peter


No. No. I was thinking he could model a home cast bronze hatch utilizing some design elements from these work-a-day fishermans hatches.
Whew.

Breakaway
02-19-2015, 11:59 AM
Yes a bronze hatch the flange of which is let into the cockpit sole so that all is flush.

Kevin

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Breakaway
02-19-2015, 12:00 PM
Should have asked: is the sole cambered?

Kevin

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Jim Ledger
02-19-2015, 12:17 PM
Should have asked: is the sole cambered?

Kevin


Not yet, but there's a lot to recommend some camber, drainage-wise.

J.Madison
02-19-2015, 12:21 PM
I've thought about this a fair amount and found no great solution. I had one on a fiberglass boat that always leaked until I got really aggressive with the 5200 and a box of screws.

Peter's idea about the grate seems smart though.

I will be interested to see what you come up with.

Canoez
02-19-2015, 12:29 PM
What's the scale of this hatch? We make watertight doors for equipment enclosures that stand up to driving rain using gasket seals and draw latches. You can get various types of 1/4 turn flush fasteners if it's not a hatch you'll regularly open, as they use a tool to do so. There are also flush versions of captive 1/4 turn fasteners, but they'll give you some headaches with accumulated junk/ice/dirt, IMHO.

Gasket to the inside, fasteners non-penetrating to the outside of the gasket.

Jim Ledger
02-19-2015, 12:46 PM
I think that about twenty inches square is about as big as I'd like to go, probably smaller. Some mock-up needed here.

The intended use of the space beneath has to be considered. I'm thinking spare anchor and fairly large coils of rope, a few big things that don't have to be gotten out very often. To open up the deck hatch while underway is troublesome because the hundred-foot sheet usually lives atop it in a great heap. It would probably be a good idea to have this hatch shut before attempting a jibe.

So, some method of dogging down the hatch would not really be an inconvenience because opening the hatch would be a planned, deliberate operation anyway.

Being able to open a hatch for cleaning and ventilation of the bilge is a good reason to include a hatch, although flush or raised makes no difference.

Ian McColgin
02-19-2015, 01:28 PM
Flush hatch. I like having the hatch piece rest on deep structurally firm gutters that are an inch wide and an inch deep, 3/4" drains each corner leading to where ever you like. The gutter is as simple as just two pieces - vertical inside piece and horizontal bottom - bolted to the underdeck framing for the hatch. The modest gap around the hatch lets water fall into the gutter and off it goes. Marmalade has this on the flush hatch abaft the engine and on the cockpit hatches but they made the gutters way way too small and not enough room to flow and very hard to keep clean. At least an inch by an inch under the hatch.

If you want to dress it up, put a bronze strip around the thing.

G'luck

Ian McColgin
02-19-2015, 01:29 PM
I keep only large things down there, no lines, as I don't want anything sloshing over the prop shaft and winding up.

No pix of it open but here it is with the quatrent atop it.

https://scontent-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/1014259_10200562722325648_311851156_n.jpg?oh=bf9a8 f18cdbe083b4a9dcdb0da2b55ee&oe=5557775F

Canoez
02-19-2015, 01:32 PM
I think that about twenty inches square is about as big as I'd like to go, probably smaller. Some mock-up needed here.

The intended use of the space beneath has to be considered. I'm thinking spare anchor and fairly large coils of rope, a few big things that don't have to be gotten out very often. To open up the deck hatch while underway is troublesome because the hundred-foot sheet usually lives atop it in a great heap. It would probably be a good idea to have this hatch shut before attempting a jibe.

So, some method of dogging down the hatch would not really be an inconvenience because opening the hatch would be a planned, deliberate operation anyway.

Being able to open a hatch for cleaning and ventilation of the bilge is a good reason to include a hatch, although flush or raised makes no difference.

That's a good sized hatch. You'll want to have some reasonably robust fasteners in the case you ship water for whatever reason - it might provide some reserve buoyancy, but you don't want the thing to blow off or otherwise come loose.

Ian's idea for some sort of edge trim is good. Don't know if brass or bronze strip is required, but it couldn't hurt. Wood isn't bad either. A set of inset flush handles to help lift the thing is also a great idea. A curved hatch top shouldn't be a big deal to allow cockpit drainage.

Paul G.
02-19-2015, 04:39 PM
Cockpit gratings to cover are not a good idea, every little bit of rubbish gets trapped (bits of lunch, fish scales, dust n dirt etc) and its an endless cleaning cycle.

John B
02-19-2015, 05:26 PM
You're right Paul , and I removed my gratings for just that reason....You do have to clean under there but I'm thinking the same way now that I want a hatch. Its the only proper way to get a fully sealed and safe hatch in a cockpit sole unless its way above the waterline and can have really good self draining.
I'm looking for the same thing but rather than a grate I think I'd rather a false floor of an inch say , to bring it flush with a raised hatch. In my case it would need to be totally watertight and safe at sea. I can't see any other way.

Ian McColgin
02-19-2015, 06:01 PM
Cockpit soles are nicest if flat, not arced. Ensuring drainage is easy. Many boats have cockpits that a a bit wider forward. These should have the drains at the forward corners where the water will roll out as the boat heels, which it constantly does if only a little at a time. Other cockpits are best flat athwartships but pitched a little, usually down aft, to encourage drainage.

Marmalade's cockpit is only a little above the water and needs an engine box over the mill. The glass Chappies have a slightly higher sole so the cockpit can be flush all the way, which is in many ways nicer but it's also the case that the engine box (sloped aft about 3" high at rear, more like 6" front) gives a nice step for going over the bridge deck without actually standing on it.

Wooden Boat Fittings
02-19-2015, 06:06 PM
If you make your grating using, say, 1" square pieces running longitudinally, bottom ends chamfered, and 1" x " transversely, you'll have what is essentially a set of full-length limbers, where detritus can be washed down towards the ends for removal by hand, and maybe even straight into your cockpit drains. Perhaps not ideal, but better than having a thousand little isolated cells trapping crud.

Mike

Ian McColgin
02-19-2015, 06:14 PM
If you have the vertical room to put in a grate, you have the room to raise the sole, almost always a good thing.

I've lived with cockpit grates and hate them. Always messy under, annoyingly easy to get warped and bouncy, and a huge extra pain if you have a hatch under. Really no point.

Except they do look very phroo-phroo yachty, another reason a grate does not belong on a catboat.

John B
02-19-2015, 07:39 PM
I don't like em either , which is the other reason I removed mine.
If I do it, which I'd like if I could find a proprietry hatch guaranteed to stand me standing on it and carrying a couple of tons of water if we get pooped, I'll build a false floor around it on fore and aft spacers that can be lifted out for cleaning.

Sky Blue
02-19-2015, 07:56 PM
Cockpit gratings to cover are not a good idea, every little bit of rubbish gets trapped (bits of lunch, fish scales, dust n dirt etc) and its an endless cleaning cycle.

I have a flush hatch on the after deck of my boat which has a drainage line to its own 1 inch thru hull fitting (if you can believe it). The challenge is keeping everything clean enough that the drain does not get clogged, which if it does, means a good bit of water overflowing down into the boat. If the water is fresh, and will sit down there for awhile then that's no good. The answer of course is to pull that hatch at every use to ensure the drain is clear, which has a ventilation benefit too, but if the boat will sit uncovered for long periods of time, then it is a nonstarter. When I had my boat surveyed, the surveyor didn't like the arrangement anyway, and told me to install a proper hatch.

Paul G.
02-19-2015, 10:32 PM
The best cockpit sole hatch is not having one! They have to be stronger and much more watertight than egress hatches on the cabin. Do you really need to open it daily or at short notice? I think the only real reason should be to access the engine etc for removal or major service and perhaps a machine screwed and adequately gasketed/sealed semi permanent hatch may be preferable.

The problem should be solved at design level as all the solutions I have seen are either toe stubbers, leakers or worse!

P.L.Lenihan
02-20-2015, 12:54 AM
I'm discouraged with how many have experienced grates as being nasty catchers of rubbish and dirt.Whatever happened to ship shape and Bristol fashion? Time for a "Good House Keeping" manual if your grates are getting clogged with garbage. In posting number 20, Mike offers a very sensible approach to the grate, for those who perhaps have a degree of difficulty containing their debris fields.


Cheers!



Peter

Jim Ledger
02-20-2015, 07:57 AM
I'm discouraged with how many have experienced grates as being nasty catchers of rubbish and dirt.Whatever happened to ship shape and Bristol fashion? Time for a "Good House Keeping" manual if your grates are getting clogged with garbage. In posting number 20, Mike offers a very sensible approach to the grate, for those who perhaps have a degree of difficulty containing their debris fields.


Cheers!



Peter


Peter, I hate to break it to you, but there was never going to be any gratings. None, nada, zip...no grates. I can see the usefulness of grates in a boat that's prone to taking a lot of water into the cockpit, they would allow you to keep your feet above the slosh and provide a firm footing. They are trappers, though, of everything dropped that's small enough to wedge in. Unless they are made teak and allowed to weather out the problem of keeping them clean and finished is a life sentence.

There will be some nice gratings in the forepeak, though

This deck is going to be straight laid Teak, caulked, over Angelique deck beams, bronze screw fastened and bunged. Get used to it.

Jim Ledger
02-20-2015, 08:19 AM
The best cockpit sole hatch is not having one! They have to be stronger and much more watertight than egress hatches on the cabin. Do you really need to open it daily or at short notice? I think the only real reason should be to access the engine etc for removal or major service and perhaps a machine screwed and adequately gasketed/sealed semi permanent hatch may be preferable.

The problem should be solved at design level as all the solutions I have seen are either toe stubbers, leakers or worse!


I'm leaning towards the hatchless scenario, because, in part, I can extend the engine box aft which will give me access to the space. I might have to lay down and reach under but the advantages make this a worthwhile trade-off.

There's a lot to like about having a roomy engine box, easy access to the motor being the most important. In this version the box would extend aft to right over the stuffing box, which with a Sabb is a routine greasing point for the variable pitch propeller mechanism. It's good to have some extra room inside for soundproofing insulation as well.

I see a pair of cast bronze hinges on the back of the engine box, could be welded up too, but big, strong and simple and as good looking as I can make them. The whole box, from the bridge deck aft, would hinge back out of the way. Easily removable pins in the hinges would enable complete removal of the box if need be.

The box might be quite high as well, maybe even with the bridge deck or slightly below, with a level top and fiddle rails to function as a table of sorts.

Jim Ledger
02-20-2015, 08:33 AM
Cockpit soles are nicest if flat, not arced. Ensuring drainage is easy. Many boats have cockpits that a a bit wider forward. These should have the drains at the forward corners where the water will roll out as the boat heels, which it constantly does if only a little at a time. Other cockpits are best flat athwartships but pitched a little, usually down aft, to encourage drainage.

Marmalade's cockpit is only a little above the water and needs an engine box over the mill. The glass Chappies have a slightly higher sole so the cockpit can be flush all the way, which is in many ways nicer but it's also the case that the engine box (sloped aft about 3" high at rear, more like 6" front) gives a nice step for going over the bridge deck without actually standing on it.

I'm not convinced about the flatness issue, Ian. I feel somehow that a slightly crowned, slightly out-of-level surface is easier to stand on then one that's dead flat. I don't think you'd notice consciously a one inch crown underfoot, but your feet would naturally follow the contour. Drainage-wise the crown would direct standing water outboard, away from the engine hatch opening and towards the drains in the forward corners.

I'll measure the heights I'm using, but I believe that the deck is seven inches above the WL at the forward (lowest) end.

I'm thinking of welding some bronze pipe to some bronze plate for the drains. The plate could be let into the deck flush for good drainage. There would be a straight run through the drain fittings, into a hose and then straight down through a through-hull, so something like a broom handle can clear the whole passage in case of blockage.

Figment
02-20-2015, 08:48 AM
Jim I admire the heck out of your propensity for making everything from scratch, but I think you're maybe going a bit beyond the pale with this one. Making something that isn't otherwise readily available is great. Spending a boatload of time and energy making something that is readily available and time-tested is another.

Spartan deck drains (http://www.robinhoodmarinecenter.com/spartan-marine/scupper-drains/) are top-notch, I assure you.

slug
02-20-2015, 08:53 AM
Difficult project.

skip metal, you will create a fastener problem . build the gutters and flange from eglass. Use Pvc U channels as the gutter mold form. Make the interior flange with a large overlap for adhesive bonding.
Square corner gaskets are difficult to make watertight. Round corners are best

build the flange , gutter assembly first...then make you hatch to fit the flange
When you are so low to the waterline drainage is a problem. Use a non return valve to prevent sea water blow back

http://s24.postimg.org/uwzgqv6lx/image.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/a038m78kx/full/)
subir fotos (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

http://s27.postimg.org/6e01jdx0j/image.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/crp4mn1wf/full/)
subir fotos gratis (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

Jim Ledger
02-20-2015, 08:57 AM
Jim I admire the heck out of your propensity for making everything from scratch, but I think you're maybe going a bit beyond the pale with this one. Making something that isn't otherwise readily available is great. Spending a boatload of time and energy making something that is readily available and time-tested is another.

Spartan deck drains (http://www.robinhoodmarinecenter.com/spartan-marine/scupper-drains/) are top-notch, I assure you.

Those are cute! So itty-bitty! And the way they put those bars across the mouth to prevent you from cleaning the drain with the broom handle, fantastic!

I'm sorry, Mike, but I want something that'll pass a tennis ball.

Dave Lesser
02-20-2015, 01:00 PM
What about a reinforced version of these, made by Port Townsend Watercraft (http://ptwatercraft.com/ptwatercraft/Hatches_and_Hardware.html)?

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7335/16406840399_8c4a9c5d25_o.png https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7458/16405669640_88859c7e85_o.jpg https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8641/16405669570_b92210f866_o.jpg

The delrin dogs could be replaced by flush fasteners from PYI (http://www.pyiinc.com/index.php?section=panel_anchor&action=main)

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7303/16406840229_306f37e6b0_o.jpg https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7433/16405669150_0cf96631ba_o.jpg


Resulting in something like this:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7283/16566702466_824ac3cf4f_o.jpg

Or if you only need infrequent access to the hatch, you could replace the PYI fasteners with flat head machine screws going into captive nuts.

Dan McCosh
02-20-2015, 01:23 PM
Flush hatch. I like having the hatch piece rest on deep structurally firm gutters that are an inch wide and an inch deep, 3/4" drains each corner leading to where ever you like. The gutter is as simple as just two pieces - vertical inside piece and horizontal bottom - bolted to the underdeck framing for the hatch. The modest gap around the hatch lets water fall into the gutter and off it goes. Marmalade has this on the flush hatch abaft the engine and on the cockpit hatches but they made the gutters way way too small and not enough room to flow and very hard to keep clean. At least an inch by an inch under the hatch.

If you want to dress it up, put a bronze strip around the thing.

G'luck We have something similar on a flush hatch that is over the engine in the cockpit--on the seats, rather than the floor. It works fine until water comes aboard. That is when it also decides to have something plug the drains, and the troughs then overflow. This happens mainly on a beat to windward, on a sunny day when we take some water over the bow. The hatch is located so that when you are driving to windward, the overflowing troughs land precisely in the middle of the aft quarter berth. You then have to flip a coin to see who gets to sleep there that night.

Figment
02-20-2015, 02:07 PM
Dan's post begs a question: Jim, is your plan to have the cockpit sole extend under the seating, or does the seating present a better option for stowage?

(and much larger hatches which are much easier to drain, etc)

alkorn
02-20-2015, 03:00 PM
I've lived with cockpit grates and hate them.

Besides that, I assume Jim's dancing partner wears heels for the ball. That makes a grating a real hazard!

Stiletto
02-20-2015, 06:30 PM
My tri had a wood fabricated flush foredeck hatch the layout of which looked a lot like the one slug posted which never leaked beyond the drains ability to cope, even with the occasional dump of green water.