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David G
02-10-2015, 09:48 PM
Obama recently caught some flack... mostly from hacks... when he noted that Islam is not the only religion who has self-identified members doing regrettable things. Sadly... Christianity has suffered from some of its adherents misunderstanding the message of Christ.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/10/us/history-of-lynchings-in-the-south-documents-nearly-4000-names.html?referrer&_r=0

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/02/10/us/map-of-73-years-of-lynching-1423543271115/map-of-73-years-of-lynching-1423543271115-master495.png



When America behaved like ISIS: Jesse Washington and the Bible Belt’s dark history of public lynchings
http://www.salon.com/2015/02/10/when_america_behaved_like_isis_jesse_washington_an d_the_bible_belts_dark_history_of_public_lynchings _partner/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

David G
02-10-2015, 09:54 PM
Oh... and this sort of thinking hasn't gone away. Sometimes, though, it shifts focus --

http://splcenter.org/blog/2015/02/10/klan-group-issues-call-to-arms-over-alabama-same-sex-marriage-ruling/

Gerarddm
02-10-2015, 09:56 PM
I can't look at a lynching photo from the 50s without wanting to take a pickaxe handle to every white bystander in the picture.

CWSmith
02-10-2015, 10:17 PM
I can't look at a lynching photo from the 50s without wanting to take a pickaxe handle to every white bystander in the picture.

I find myself wondering "Where are they now?"

Gill
02-10-2015, 10:28 PM
Terrorism by Christians is not the same as Christian Terrorism. Crimes committed by people who happen to be adherents of a religion is not the same as committing crimes in the name of and the furtherance of one's interpretation of their religion. Apples and oranges.

BrianW
02-10-2015, 10:37 PM
Were they lynching blacks in the name of Jesus, or because they were racist bastards?

It doesn't make a difference to the victims, and it doesn't mean there isn't Christian Terrorism, but I'm not following the logic of this example.

hanleyclifford
02-10-2015, 10:46 PM
Terrorism by Christians is not the same as Christian Terrorism. Crimes committed by people who happen to be adherents of a religion is not the same as committing crimes in the name of and the furtherance of one's interpretation of their religion. Apples and oranges. False equivalence a la Professor.

Ian McColgin
02-10-2015, 11:16 PM
The Christian militas spreading across central Africa are Christian terrorists indulging in tribal and religious warfare against their Muslim neighbors. You have to look for the news but it's amazing and horrifying.

Glen Longino
02-11-2015, 12:19 AM
Were they lynching blacks in the name of Jesus, or because they were racist bastards?

It doesn't make a difference to the victims, and it doesn't mean there isn't Christian Terrorism, but I'm not following the logic of this example.

They thought they were doing God's work by lynching black "sinners".
A black "sinner" was broadly defined by "white" bigots.
Brian, have you ever lived in a culture that was dominated by white bigots?
Many of us have.
White bigots are Christian, dominant, hateful, and ruthless.

David G
02-11-2015, 12:32 AM
Were they lynching blacks in the name of Jesus, or because they were racist bastards?

It doesn't make a difference to the victims, and it doesn't mean there isn't Christian Terrorism, but I'm not following the logic of this example.

Yes, they were. Just go back and read some of the writings. They were committing these heinous acts in the name of patriotism and of Jesus.


False equivalence a la Professor.

Incorrect, I'd say. Lay it out if you can.

BrianW
02-11-2015, 12:39 AM
Yes, they were. Just go back and read some of the writings. They were committing these heinous acts in the name of patriotism and of Jesus.

There's nothing in your link which indicates they were lynching blacks for Jesus.

BrianW
02-11-2015, 12:42 AM
When I think of Christian terrorism, I think more along the lines of bombing abortion clinics.

Chip-skiff
02-11-2015, 12:52 AM
Read some history. The Ku Klux Klan was a proudly, militantly Christian organization, and at one point most of the leaders were Protestant ministers. The cross was the most important symbol of the group.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Burning-cross2.jpg

In the present, look into the Lord's Resistance Army.

"The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA), also known as the Lord's Resistance Movement, is a militant movement which is "Christianist," extremist Christian,[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-6) acting as a new religious movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement) or a cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult) which operated in northern Uganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda) and South Sudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sudan). Originally known as the United Holy Salvation Army and Uganda Christian Army/Movement, its stated goals include ruling Uganda according to the Ten Commandments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-7) It is listed as a terrorist group by the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-8)

Since 2005, there have been claims that the group has entered the Democratic Republic of Congo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Democratic_Republic_of_Congo), and in 2007 it was reported that it was in Central African Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic).[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-9) The LRA has been accused of widespread human rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights) violations, including murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder), abduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping), mutilation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutilation), child-sex slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery), and forcing children to participate in hostilities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_use_of_children).[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-warrants-10)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-11)

The LRA was initially formed to resist the Uganda People's Defence Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_People%27s_Defence_Force) (UPDF), called the National Resistance Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Resistance_Army) (NRA) before it took control of the country. The NRA/UPDF has been accused of widespread murder, rape, and pillage.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-12)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-13) In June 2006, Radhika Coomaraswamy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhika_Coomaraswamy), the UN's special representative for children, found more than 5000 children recruited in the Ugandan government army.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-14)

Ideologically, LRA believe in African mysticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_African_religion) and Christian fundamentalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalism).[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-15)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-afraf.oxfordjournals.org-16)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-community.seattletimes.nwsource.com-17)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-cesnur.org-18)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-entertainment.timesonline.co.uk-19)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-nytimes.com-20)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-guardian.co.uk-21)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-washingtonpost.com-22)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-Haynes-23)[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-gpf-24)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-gmu-25) It claims to be establishing a theocratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy) state based on the Ten Commandments and local Acholi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acholi) tradition.[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-aa-26)[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-autogenerated2-27)[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#cite_note-irininterview-28)

The group is led by Joseph Kony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kony)."

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
02-11-2015, 06:46 AM
To say nothing of the IRA, UVF and the like.

Reynard38
02-11-2015, 07:08 AM
Christianity has in its history commited atrocities. The inquisition comes to mind first.
I am curious as to the purpose of this thread however, as I am curious as to why the current president felt the need to bring this up. Is it to try to justify or minimize the actions of Muslim extremists?

Paul Pless
02-11-2015, 07:25 AM
Christianity has in its history commited atrocities. The inquisition comes to mind first. first? before the crusades??

a letter home, year 1098


To his reverend lord M., by God's grace archbishop of Reims, A. of Ribemont, his vassal and humble servant, greeting.
Inasmuch as you are our lord and as the kingdom of France is especially dependent upon your care, we tell to you, our father, the events which have happened to us and the condition of the army of the Lord. Yet, in the first place, although we are not ignorant that the disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord, we advise and beseech you in the name of our Lord Jesus to consider what you are and what the duty of a priest and bishop is. Provide therefore for our land, so that the lords may keep peace among themselves, the vassals may in safety work on their property, and the ministers of Christ may serve the Lord, leading quiet and tranquil lives. I also pray you and the canons of the holy mother church of Reims, my fathers and lords, to be mindful of US, not only of me and of those who are now sweating in the service of God, but also of the members of the army of the Lord who have fallen in arms or died in peace.
But passing over these things, let us return to what we promised. Accordingly after the arnny had reached Nicomedia, which is situated at the entrance to the land of the Turks, we all, lords and vassals, cleansed by confession, fortified ourselves by partaking of the body and blood of our Lord, and proceeding thence beset Nicaea on the second day before the Nones of May. After we had for some days besieged the city with many machines and various engines of war, the craft of the Turks, as often before, deceived US greatly. For on the very day on which they had promised that they would surrender, Soliman and all the Turks, collected from neighboring and distant regions, suddenly fell upon US and attempted to capture our camp. However the count of St. Gilles, with the remaining Franks, made an attack upon them and killed an innumerable multitude. All the others fled in confusion. Our men, moreover, returning in victory and bearing many heads fixed upon pikes and spears, furnished a joyful spectacle for the people of God. This was on the,seventeenth day before the Kalends of June.
Beset moreover and routed in attacks by night and day, they surrendered unwillingly on the thirteenth day before the Kalends of July. Then the Christians entering the walls with their crosses and imperial standards, reconciled the city to God, and both within the city and outside the gates cried out in Greek and Latin, "Glory to Thee, O God." Having accomplished this, the princes of the army met the emperor who had come to offer them his thanks, and having received from him gifts of inestimable value, some withdrew, with kindly feelings, others with different emotions.
We moved our camp from Nicaea on the fourth day before the Kalends of July and proceeded on our journey for three days. On the fourth day the Turks, having collected their forces from all sides, again attacked the smaller portion of our army, killed many of our men and drove all the remainder back to their camps. Bohemond, count of the Romans,[2] count Stephen, and the count of Flanders commanded this section. When these were thus terrified by fear, the standards of the larger army suddenly appeared. Hugh the Great and the duke of Lorraine were riding at the head, the count of St. Gilles and the venerable b'ishop of Puy followed. For they had heard of the battle and were hastening to our aid. The number of the Turks was estimated at 260,000. All of our army attacked them, killed many and routed the rest. On that day I returned from the emperor, to whom the princes had sent me on public business.
After that day our princes remained together and were not separated from one another. Therefore, in traversing the countries of Romania and Armenia we found no obstacle, except that after passing Iconium, we, who formed the advance guard, saw a few Turks. After routing these, on the twelfth day before the Kalends of November, we laid siege to Antioch, and now we captured the neighboring places, the cities of Tarsus and Ivaodicea and many others, by force. On a certain day, moreover, before we besieged the city, at the "Iron Bridge" we routed the Turks, who had set out to devastate the surrounding country, and we rescued many Christians. Moreover, we led back the horses and camels with very great booty.
While we were besieging the city, the Turks from the nearest redoubt daily killed those entering and leaving the army. The princes of our army seeing this, killed 4oo of the Turks who were Iying in wait, drove others into a certain river and led back some as captives. You may be assured that we are now besieging Antioch with all diligence, and hope soon to capture it. The city is supplied to an incredible extent with grain, wine, oil and all kinds of food.
I ask, moreover, that you and all whom this letter reaches pray for us and for our departed brethren. Those who have fallen in battle are: at Nicaea, Baldwin of Ghent, Baldwin Chalderuns, who was the first to make an attack upon the Turks and who fell in battle on the Kalends of July, Robert of Paris, Lisiard of Flanders, Hilduin of Mansgarbio [Mazingarbe], Ansellus of Caium [Anseau of Caien], Manasses of Claromonte [Clermont], Laudunensis.
Those who died from sickness: at Nicaea, Guy of Vitreio, Odo vf Vernolio [Verneuil (?)], Hugh of Reims; at the fortress of Sparnum, the venerable abbot Roger, my chaplain; at Antioch, Alard of Spiniaeco, Hugh of Calniaco.
Again and again I beseech you, readers of this letter, to pray for us, and you, my lord archbishop, to order this to be done by your bishops. And know for certain that we have captured for the l,ord 200 cities and fortresses. May our mother, the western church, rejoice that she has begotten such men, who are acquiring for her so glorious a name and who are so wonderfully aiding the eastern church. And in order that you may believe this, know that you have sent to me a tapestry by Raymond "de Castello." Farewell.

Keith Wilson
02-11-2015, 07:49 AM
I don't see lynchings as 'Christian terrorism' as such. The purpose wasn't religious, although those doing it were no doubt Christians, and thought their religion justified it. Bombing abortion clinics, definitely. The troubles in Norther Ireland did have a large religious component, but mostly left over from previous times and mixed with a bunch of ordinary nationalism.


. . . as I am curious as to why the current president felt the need to bring this up. Is it to try to justify or minimize the actions of Muslim extremists?No. Despite the freakout on the right, that wasn't what he was doing at all, not even close. He said exactly the opposite. I was rather impressed by what he said, in fact. The relevant bit follows, and you can read it all here (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/02/05/remarks-president-national-prayer-breakfast); a very good talk IMHO. In fact, the more I read it, the more impressed I am.


As we speak, around the world, we see faith inspiring people to lift up one another -- to feed the hungry and care for the poor, and comfort the afflicted and make peace where there is strife. We heard the good work that Sister has done in Philadelphia, and the incredible work that Dr. Brantly and his colleagues have done. We see faith driving us to do right.

But we also see faith being twisted and distorted, used as a wedge -- or, worse, sometimes used as a weapon. From a school in Pakistan to the streets of Paris, we have seen violence and terror perpetrated by those who profess to stand up for faith, their faith, professed to stand up for Islam, but, in fact, are betraying it. We see ISIL, a brutal, vicious death cult that, in the name of religion, carries out unspeakable acts of barbarism -- terrorizing religious minorities like the Yezidis, subjecting women to rape as a weapon of war, and claiming the mantle of religious authority for such actions.

We see sectarian war in Syria, the murder of Muslims and Christians in Nigeria, religious war in the Central African Republic, a rising tide of anti-Semitism and hate crimes in Europe, so often perpetrated in the name of religion.

So how do we, as people of faith, reconcile these realities -- the profound good, the strength, the tenacity, the compassion and love that can flow from all of our faiths, operating alongside those who seek to hijack religious for their own murderous ends?

Humanity has been grappling with these questions throughout human history. And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ. Michelle and I returned from India -- an incredible, beautiful country, full of magnificent diversity -- but a place where, in past years, religious faiths of all types have, on occasion, been targeted by other peoples of faith, simply due to their heritage and their beliefs -- acts of intolerance that would have shocked Gandhiji, the person who helped to liberate that nation.

So this is not unique to one group or one religion. There is a tendency in us, a sinful tendency that can pervert and distort our faith. In today’s world, when hate groups have their own Twitter accounts and bigotry can fester in hidden places in cyberspace, it can be even harder to counteract such intolerance. But God compels us to try. And in this mission, I believe there are a few principles that can guide us, particularly those of us who profess to believe.

And, first, we should start with some basic humility. I believe that the starting point of faith is some doubt -- not being so full of yourself and so confident that you are right and that God speaks only to us, and doesn’t speak to others, that God only cares about us and doesn’t care about others, that somehow we alone are in possession of the truth.

Our job is not to ask that God respond to our notion of truth -- our job is to be true to Him, His word, and His commandments. And we should assume humbly that we’re confused and don’t always know what we’re doing and we’re staggering and stumbling towards Him, and have some humility in that process. And that means we have to speak up against those who would misuse His name to justify oppression, or violence, or hatred with that fierce certainty. No God condones terror. No grievance justifies the taking of innocent lives, or the oppression of those who are weaker or fewer in number.

And so, as people of faith, we are summoned to push back against those who try to distort our religion -- any religion -- for their own nihilistic ends. And here at home and around the world, we will constantly reaffirm that fundamental freedom -- freedom of religion -- the right to practice our faith how we choose, to change our faith if we choose, to practice no faith at all if we choose, and to do so free of persecution and fear and discrimination.

Paul Pless
02-11-2015, 07:53 AM
Thank you Kieth, good post.

Keith Wilson
02-11-2015, 07:55 AM
Not my words, mostly. I was highly impressed by that speech. Obama's a far better man than the current state of US politics deserves.

Paul Pless
02-11-2015, 08:00 AM
i was referring to your post about lynchings not being christian terrorism
their purpose was to control and subjugate a slave class of people

elf
02-11-2015, 08:02 AM
Religion has always covered for greed.

Keith Wilson
02-11-2015, 08:07 AM
Ah, right. No, lynchings weren't primarily religious. Both the perpetrators and the victims were Christians.

TomF
02-11-2015, 08:08 AM
Religion has always covered for greed.I'd put it the other way 'round, Emily. Greed has often used religion as camoflauge.

Ian McColgin
02-11-2015, 08:10 AM
IMc - Almost always, religious and ethnic and ideological issues get mixed in to the more intractable struggles. That allows us to note that there are "good" and "peaceful" Christians, Jews and Muslims, that there is much that's quite wonderful about the whole MEM bit, without taking responsibility for the consequences of doctrine gone wrong. Here's an example of how many ways a truely horrific struggle can be parsed:



Ethnic cleansing in Central African Republic, no genocide: U.N. inquiry
UNITED NATIONS Thu Jan 8, 2015 6:29pm EST

(Reuters) - Christian militia in Central African Republic have carried out ethnic cleansing of the Muslim population during the country's ongoing civil war, but there is no proof there was genocidal intent, a United Nations commission of inquiry has determined.

The final report of the inquiry, which was submitted to the U.N. Security Council on Dec. 19, said up to 6,000 people had been killed though it "considers that such estimates fail to capture the full magnitude of the killings that occurred."

The mostly Christian or animist "anti-balaka" militia took up arms in 2013 in response to months of looting and killing by mostly Muslim Seleka rebels who had toppled President Francois Bozize and seized power in March the same year.

The U.N. Security Council established the commission of inquiry in December 2013.

"Thousands of people died as a result of the conflict. Human rights violations and abuses were committed by all parties. The Seleka coalition and the anti-balaka are also responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity," the inquiry said.

"Although the commission cannot conclude that there was genocide, ethnic cleansing of the Muslim population by the anti-balaka constitutes a crime against humanity," it found.

The report said "the existence of the necessary element of genocidal intent" had not been established.

In September 2014, the International Criminal Court opened an investigation into allegations of murder, rape and the recruiting of child soldiers in the Central African Republic.

Some 5,600 African Union peacekeepers, deployed in December 2013, and about 2,000 French troops have struggled to stem the violence in the impoverished landlocked country of 4.6 million people.

The United Nations took over the African Union peacekeeping mission in September and is mandated by the Security Council to double its size to nearly 12,000 troops and police.

The U.N. commission of inquiry said the deployment of the African Union peacekeepers, French troops and then the U.N. peacekeeping mission (MINUSCA) had "been primarily responsible for the prevention of an even greater explosion of violence."

(Reporting by Michelle Nichols, editing by G Crosse)

BrianW
02-11-2015, 09:43 AM
Well, now we have the nut that just executed three Muslim students at UNC.

What a horrible crime and a huge embarrassment for the rest of the USA. My condolences to the victims, their family, and friends.

This quote from CNN...


Hicks is being held on three counts of first-degree murder.
In one post widely shared online, Hicks, who claimed he is an atheist, allegedly wrote: "When it comes to insults, your religion started this, not me. If your religion kept its big mouth shut, so would I."



http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/11/us/chapel-hill-shooting/index.html

...indicates that while it was a crime based on religion, Hicks was not a Christian.

CK 17
02-11-2015, 10:14 AM
Over a parking spot? Not terror. Just anger. How bad does it have to get before people stop visiting here? sending their kids here?

ahp
02-11-2015, 11:55 AM
On their way to the "Holy Land" the First Crusaders killed about 30,000 in Eastern Europe because they didn't worship Jesus they way the did back home.

hanleyclifford
02-11-2015, 01:17 PM
Over a parking spot? Not terror. Just anger. How bad does it have to get before people stop visiting here? sending their kids here? Let us know when you figure that out.

skuthorp
02-11-2015, 03:25 PM
Not my words, mostly. I was highly impressed by that speech. Obama's a far better man than the current state of US politics deserves.
I wholeheartedly agree with that Keith. I could never see the logic of why such a man bothered trying frankly, but I guess it's because he is such a man.

JimD
02-11-2015, 03:28 PM
Are two of the three in this pic women or did a lot of Klansmen just like to cross dress?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Burning-cross2.jpg

John Smith
02-11-2015, 03:29 PM
Terrorism by Christians is not the same as Christian Terrorism. Crimes committed by people who happen to be adherents of a religion is not the same as committing crimes in the name of and the furtherance of one's interpretation of their religion. Apples and oranges.

One man doing God's work is different from another man doing God's work?

John Smith
02-11-2015, 03:31 PM
There's nothing in your link which indicates they were lynching blacks for Jesus.

For what it's worth, if you can find some video of KKK crowds, the Grand Wizard is probably holding a Bible as he speaks.

John Smith
02-11-2015, 03:32 PM
Christianity has in its history commited atrocities. The inquisition comes to mind first.
I am curious as to the purpose of this thread however, as I am curious as to why the current president felt the need to bring this up. Is it to try to justify or minimize the actions of Muslim extremists?

Let him without sin.....?

Gerarddm
02-11-2015, 03:35 PM
We talk about the Crusades; another version of Christian terrorism was the Albigensian Crusade. From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

Christian terrorism per se died out, but it took a hella long time. The calendars will be long before modern-day Islamic terrorism recedes as well.

John Smith
02-11-2015, 03:36 PM
What are we to think of any God who would permit people to do any of these things in His name?

Ian McColgin
02-11-2015, 03:39 PM
That it's a god who gave people free will . . . and meant it.

Gerarddm
02-11-2015, 03:39 PM
^ Derision; contempt at the concept.

TomF
02-11-2015, 03:43 PM
Free will means nothing at all, if there's no actual choice to act abominably as well as wondrously. It's kinda the point of the "choice" bit.

But then, we've been 'round this particular barn before.

Chris Coose
02-11-2015, 03:50 PM
There's nothing in your link which indicates they were lynching blacks for Jesus.


You can take the blinders off anytime.

Keith Wilson
02-11-2015, 03:54 PM
No blinders. While they certainly believed their god approved, they weren't lynching for specifically religious motives. It was not like the Albigensian crusade, or ISIS killing Yazidis.

TomF
02-11-2015, 04:27 PM
I dunno. It may be that people who lynched others while burning crosses etc. figured they were doing the Work of God, They certainly dressed it up in Christian words, even if their choice of words (to say nothing of their actions!) horrifies me.

It's worthwhile asking if these people are the equivalent of ISIS' extremism within Islam, or some other beast entirely. I'm inclined to think that they were simply bigots dressing up their bigotry, but then I'm inclined to think that ISIS is not "authentic" Islam either. Just people latching onto an extremist version of the flavour of the day which allows them to be in a community to leverage opportunities to express their rage, lust for power, etc.

In each case, I think particular conceptions of God are co-opted to serve the biases and inclinations of the respective extremists. While ISIS is theoretically trying to do this while creating a theocratic temporal government, some would argue that such a step wasn't necessary in the bad old days of race-based lynchings, because the state apparatus was already somewhat in thrall.

Paul Pless
02-11-2015, 04:38 PM
It's worthwhile asking if these people are the equivalent of ISIS' extremism within Islam, or some other beast entirely. I'm inclined to think that they were simply bigots dressing up their bigotry, but then I'm inclined to think that ISIS is not "authentic" Islam either. Just people latching onto an extremist version of the flavour of the day which allows them to be in a community to leverage opportunities to express their rage, lust for power, etc. Worth noting that other than the various snake handling protestants* in the south; there's virtually no differences in the theology (ideology, just for you donn) of white churches and black churches. Remember, the black slaves were 'given' their Christianity by their white owners. A black southern baptist preaches similar lessons to a white southern baptist; methodist, and church of christ the same. . .

It was much later than the time of the lynchings that black Lutheran and black Episcopal churches began to be found in the south, and their popularity tends to be confined to larger communities. The significance being that Episcopal and Lutheran (and catholic) are not your typical traditional southern protestant church. . .


*black churches do not mess with snakes

hanleyclifford
02-11-2015, 04:38 PM
Yes, they were. Just go back and read some of the writings. They were committing these heinous acts in the name of patriotism and of Jesus.



Incorrect, I'd say. Lay it out if you can. Keith did it nicely.

Osborne Russell
02-11-2015, 04:52 PM
Are two of the three in this pic women or did a lot of Klansmen just like to cross dress?[/IMG]

:d

Do what? In these shoes?

Osborne Russell
02-11-2015, 05:05 PM
I dunno. It may be that people who lynched others while burning crosses etc. figured they were doing the Work of God, They certainly dressed it up in Christian words, even if their choice of words (to say nothing of their actions!) horrifies me.

It's worthwhile asking if these people are the equivalent of ISIS' extremism within Islam, or some other beast entirely. I'm inclined to think that they were simply bigots dressing up their bigotry, but then I'm inclined to think that ISIS is not "authentic" Islam either. Just people latching onto an extremist version of the flavour of the day which allows them to be in a community to leverage opportunities to express their rage, lust for power, etc.

There's a process of development.

1. The bad guys start it.
2. The worst guys find it.
3. The newer recruits come from closer and closer to the center. There's more of them, for one thing. The more adventurous ultimately drag the less adventurous in. The timid become convinced that they better at least give lip service.
4. Pretty soon it's normal to be what was once considered radical.
5. Certain guys try to out-radical each other.
6. Maybe they make the less radical nervous but at this point it's way too late to resist the inertia. But can the leadership keep up the pressure? Now it's leading a large organization, not just a roomful of freaks, like in the beginning.

That's why it's more important than ever, late in the game, to split the radicals from the middle. Don't be talking about turning the whole country into glass, etc. Don't attack indiscriminately. Make it easy for the middle to abandon the extreme, which will then collapse, after a few final spasms.

PeterSibley
02-11-2015, 05:20 PM
There's a process of development.

1. The bad guys start it.
2. The worst guys find it.
3. The newer recruits come from closer and closer to the center. There's more of them, for one thing. The more adventurous ultimately drag the less adventurous in. The timid become convinced that they better at least give lip service.
4. Pretty soon it's normal to be what was once considered radical.
5. Certain guys try to out-radical each other.
6. Maybe they make the less radical nervous but at this point it's way too late to resist the inertia. But can the leadership keep up the pressure? Now it's leading a large organization, not just a roomful of freaks, like in the beginning.

That's why it's more important than ever, late in the game, to split the radicals from the middle. Don't be talking about turning the whole country into glass, etc. Don't attack indiscriminately. Make it easy for the middle to abandon the extreme, which will then collapse, after a few final spasms.

Well said , it's the process of radicalisation in every organisation, left and right, from Bolshevism to Nazism.

PeterSibley
02-11-2015, 05:26 PM
I dunno. It may be that people who lynched others while burning crosses etc. figured they were doing the Work of God, They certainly dressed it up in Christian words, even if their choice of words (to say nothing of their actions!) horrifies me.

It's worthwhile asking if these people are the equivalent of ISIS' extremism within Islam, or some other beast entirely. I'm inclined to think that they were simply bigots dressing up their bigotry, but then I'm inclined to think that ISIS is not "authentic" Islam either. Just people latching onto an extremist version of the flavour of the day which allows them to be in a community to leverage opportunities to express their rage, lust for power, etc.

In each case, I think particular conceptions of God are co-opted to serve the biases and inclinations of the respective extremists. While ISIS is theoretically trying to do this while creating a theocratic temporal government, some would argue that such a step wasn't necessary in the bad old days of race-based lynchings, because the state apparatus was already somewhat in thrall.


The trouble is that although such groups may not be authentic in the eyes of others, their own assessment they are usually the practitioners of the "pure truth". Such is the problem. None of these groups say, "we're not really doing it right but we don't care'', that's just not the way the human mind works. That may be the case for the don't ''really care middle '' but the radicals are RIGHT!!!! Just ask them.

Osborne Russell
02-11-2015, 06:53 PM
Well said , it's the process of radicalisation in every organisation, left and right, from Bolshevism to Nazism.


Thanks.

I forgot to say, these movements may be able to run on pure emotion at the very beginning but very quickly they have to develop an ideology. Think of the hungry Hitler in the early days. Or they can start with one, like Marx.

Either way, as the movement grows, the ideology is adapted to make it practical and attractive. Often, in the process, it ends up as something drastically different if not antithetical to the original.

So at what point was it "real" as in "real" religion, "real" communism, fascism, etc? In my opinion, it's "real" in every stage, in every manifestation, so long as it's motivating support for the regime. Gee, someone hijacked it and bent it to their purpose? When did that ever happen in history? Seems like a miracle if it doesn't.

Meanwhile, it takes an army of sincere believers to support a superstructure of cynics. Sincere, by their own standards, that is. They can be any mix of ignorant to conformist to informed and sincere, doesn't matter. The whole shebang has one thing in common, that's why it's there, to unite the various motivations and perspectives.

George Jung
02-11-2015, 07:00 PM
That's a nasty downward spiral you've outlined, OR - what's next, Pope-abuse? I can't support that. *


*a tip of the hat to Bloom County

Osborne Russell
02-11-2015, 07:15 PM
That's a nasty downward spiral you've outlined, OR - what's next, Pope-abuse? I can't support that. *


*a tip of the hat to Bloom County

Not familiar with the Pope thing.

It's a kind of cycle. Seems great to begin with, so it grows. It's stupid, so it dies. People say, never again. Then they forget. Then they do it again, different name, different costumes. More of a sine wave than a downward spiral.

Gerarddm
02-11-2015, 08:28 PM
Osborne, you are right on.

( claps )

Chip-skiff
02-11-2015, 08:44 PM
Are two of the three in this pic women or did a lot of Klansmen just like to cross dress?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Burning-cross2.jpg

Here, for historical reference (and whatever amazement you might feel) is a photo of a Klan march along Pennsylvania Ave. in Washington D.C, in 1928:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Ku_Klux_Klan_members_march_down_Pennsylvania_Avenu e_in_Washington%2C_D.C._in_1928.jpg

Defending white women was often the pretext for lynchings— here are the white women, carrying their holy cross and their hallowed flag.

Reynard38
02-11-2015, 09:02 PM
Yep, in 1928.

Breakaway
02-12-2015, 01:16 AM
orism


http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by JimD http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4446021#post4446021)
Are two of the three in this pic women or did a lot of Klansmen just like to cross dress?







Good pun!

Factoid: A burning cross is not neccessarily a Christian symbol; burning a cross not a Christian ritual. A burning cross was used as a signal--a call to arms--by clans in Scotland.

Wiki sums it up nicely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_burning

Kevin

Keith Wilson
02-12-2015, 08:42 AM
The Klan (in its second incarnation) was very, very big in the '20s, and not only in the south. They declined in the '30s, and after the war Superman pretty much finished them off after Stetson Kennedy gave him all the secret passwords and stuff. (http://dangerousminds.net/comments/how_superman_singlehandedly_thwarted_the_ku_klux_k lan) It's true! Follow the link!

BrianW
02-12-2015, 08:46 AM
Keith did it nicely.

Yes he did.

Funny how it was okay when he said it. ;)

It's all right. I don't take it personal, it's just a rut we get in here. When you've disagreed with someone for so long, it can be hard to realize when they are right, and to acknowledge it. Or, sometimes it just gets overlooked. I don't think there was any malice intended.

woodpile
02-12-2015, 10:14 AM
The Klan (in its second incarnation) was very, very big in the '20s, and not only in the south. They declined in the '30s, and after the war Superman pretty much finished them off after Stetson Kennedy gave him all the secret passwords and stuff. (http://dangerousminds.net/comments/how_superman_singlehandedly_thwarted_the_ku_klux_k lan) It's true! Follow the link!

Another thing that really put a dent in the clan was when Hoover hired one of the best MAFIA interrogators he could find to go down and "talk to" the suspects in the 1963 Birmingham church bombing, the case was soon solved.

Osborne Russell
02-12-2015, 11:43 AM
Osborne, you are right on.

( claps )

Thanks, you are too kind.

Does a spiral look like a sine wave in two dimensions? I'd like to get my metaphors straight. What does a slinky look like when you look at it straight on?

TomF
02-12-2015, 11:45 AM
...What does a slinky look like when you look at it straight on?A little black dress, maybe?

Osborne Russell
02-12-2015, 12:01 PM
A little black dress, maybe?

Long winter getting to ya, buddy? ;)

George Jung
02-12-2015, 02:00 PM
I've got some concerns for the slinky, as well...

TomF
02-12-2015, 02:26 PM
I've got some concerns for the slinky, as well...Spew! :D Well played.