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genglandoh
01-24-2015, 01:34 PM
very interesting
http://wealthtrack.com/recent-programs/ellis-fixing-the-retirement-crisis/

hanleyclifford
01-24-2015, 02:09 PM
Very sobering.

slug
01-24-2015, 03:03 PM
Cant watch videos but I can visualize the issue. The entire industrialized world is coming up against it. In some countries like Poland or Croatia, with a very high brain drain , the situation is catastrophic

skuthorp
01-24-2015, 03:10 PM
Balancing longevity with available funds and investment is a job in itself. I call myself self-employed.

MiddleAgesMan
01-24-2015, 03:13 PM
Very optimistic...so far.

slug
01-24-2015, 03:15 PM
The problem is acute in societies who told their workers not to worry, low wage economies who saw rapid growth and societies who had a oversize state sector . The IMF has proposed a wealth tax on all households to fill these gap.
Scary stuff.

Paul Pless
01-24-2015, 03:21 PM
For once geng, you've posted a link to some folks that are actually worthwhile to listen to; their public policy advice regarding 401k's is reasonable and they are more than sensible with regards to social security. I think its worth pointing out their criticisim of how Social security has been managed over the years - they point out that when its shortcomings have been addressed it always been after too long a time has been passed to assure continued payout at its former level, so that there is always a compromise made with regards to future benefits; also they say there is never willingness to increase taxes to make up for any short falls so the shortfall in funding is always done through deficit spending. Sound familiar? its the right that does these two things. . .

slug
01-24-2015, 03:26 PM
When I was a kid in high school taking Home Economics class they taught us that social security was underfunded and would not be functional when my generation retires. That was 40 some years ago.

MiddleAgesMan
01-24-2015, 03:28 PM
OK, I'm almost finished with the video and I still don't know why the doom-and-gloomers above are wringing their hands.

While I'm waiting for the axe to fall I have one simple question: Why does that woman doing the interview look down at the floor in front of her? Is she poised high on a platform looking down at her guest? Not likely--he is staring forward as if she is seated right in front of him.

genglandoh
01-24-2015, 05:54 PM
I have been reviewing my options for retirement.
I am planning to
1. Work until I am 70
2. Start to take my SS at age 70.
3. Have my home paid off in full with no home equity loans.
4. Downsize to a smaller home in a lower cost area.
5. Up my 401K from 10% to 15% at age 60.
6. Pay off my kids college loans.
Today we are spending about 30% of our combined take home pay for my 3 kids college loans.

So if I can reduce my living expenses by 40% we will have no problems in retirement.
The 40% comes from the 30% for the college loans and 10% from downsizing and living in a lower cost area.
We will also stop putting the 15% into our 401K so this will be the extra for emergencies.

leikec
01-24-2015, 06:13 PM
My retirement is getting more complicated by the day. When to retire, why I should retire, where I'll end up...never thought I'd be starting over at this stage, or making these decisions alone.

Jeff C

hanleyclifford
01-24-2015, 06:33 PM
I'll never "retire" - just do different things.

John Smith
01-24-2015, 06:42 PM
I don't think this is so complex. Everyone needs to plan for retirement. Few do. Social Security forces the issue a bit. One of the reasons Social Security has problems is wages have been stagnant. If one gets a dollar an our raise, Social Security gets more revenue. Private investments may promise a larger return, but recent history has shown them anything but secure.

S.V. Airlie
01-24-2015, 07:44 PM
#'s 3 and 4. You are assuming you get a good price for your first house and assuming your second house doesn't need any work.

DMillet
01-24-2015, 10:38 PM
It's not hard at all. The challenge is having and keeping a decent paying job while you're still young enough to save. I've been beating this stuff into my kids heads for so long it's one of the first things they think about when they get a new job. These principles should be taught from elementary school through high school graduation. The days of the "nanny employer" are long gone. It's on you and if you fail to plan then you've planned to fail.

slug
01-25-2015, 02:20 AM
They taught us in high school home economics. ..." Ten percent for life"

it has worked out for me. I wont need government assistance to eat.

Hopefully the fools giving stuff away for free wont devalue the currency or promote liars loans that collapse the economy and produce negative interest rate for retirement.

the fixed interest portion of my pension is a joke. Makes me angry.

PeterSibley
01-25-2015, 02:27 AM
Good soil and good health .

slug
01-25-2015, 02:42 AM
And remember..the liberal agenda, making promises that others must keep, has created a monster. The promise shortfall is so great that the IMF has proposed.....

“The sharp deterioration of the public finances in many countries has revived interest in a “capital levy”— a one-off tax on private wealth—as an exceptional measure to restore debt sustainability."

… The conditions for success are strong, but also need to be weighed against the risks of the alternatives, which include repudiating public debt or inflating it away. …

The tax rates needed to bring down public debt to precrisis levels, moreover, are sizable: reducing debt ratios to end-2007 levels would require (for a sample of 15 euro area countries) a tax rate of about 10 percent on households with positive net wealth. (page 49)”

they want to confiscate ten percent of your money ,for as many years as it takes, to pay for the liberal ponzi scheme.

McMike
01-25-2015, 08:16 AM
Retirement is not an option. I should have joined a union or gotten a municipal job years ago. I'm stuck in small business land with no hope for good benifits or a respectable wage for what I do.

My plan is to work until I can't and if life on SS really sucks then I'll take something to go to sleep forever.

On a side note, I did pretty well for not having parents . . . . But I still guessed wrong that hard work would be my answer, it's all about positioning. A lovely society we've built for our selves isn't it.

Tom Wilkinson
01-25-2015, 08:26 AM
Retirement is not an option. I should have joined a union or gotten a municipal job years ago. I'm stuck in small business land with no hope for good benifits or a respectable wage for what I do.

My plan is to work until I can't and if life on SS really sucks then I'll take something to go to sleep forever.

On a side note, I did pretty well for not having parents . . . . But I still guessed wrong that hard work would be my answer, it's all about positioning. A lovely society we've built for our selves isn't it.

What does joining a union or a municipal job have to do with the idea of saving? If people would learn to save 10% right off the top from the start they would never miss the money. It just takes discipline.

John Smith
01-25-2015, 08:26 AM
They taught us in high school home economics. ..." Ten percent for life"

it has worked out for me. I wont need government assistance to eat.

Hopefully the fools giving stuff away for free wont devalue the currency or promote liars loans that collapse the economy and produce negative interest rate for retirement.

the fixed interest portion of my pension is a joke. Makes me angry.

I try to tell my grandkids to bank 10% of whatever they earn. I agree this should start in elementary school.

I used to suggest to new employees they open a bank account an hour away and arrange for a payroll deduction of a few dollars a pay to be automatically sent there. The inconvenience of distance would keep that money safe, unless they had a substantial reason for taking it out. MAC machines made that strategy moot.

Let us, however, not forget that most bankruptcies are from medical problems. Not everyone has the option of having such control over their money.

I wonder how many would support the option of paying a bit more into SS during their working lives.

John Smith
01-25-2015, 08:29 AM
And remember..the liberal agenda, making promises that others must keep, has created a monster. The promise shortfall is so great that the IMF has proposed.....

“The sharp deterioration of the public finances in many countries has revived interest in a “capital levy”— a one-off tax on private wealth—as an exceptional measure to restore debt sustainability."

… The conditions for success are strong, but also need to be weighed against the risks of the alternatives, which include repudiating public debt or inflating it away. …

The tax rates needed to bring down public debt to precrisis levels, moreover, are sizable: reducing debt ratios to end-2007 levels would require (for a sample of 15 euro area countries) a tax rate of about 10 percent on households with positive net wealth. (page 49)”

they want to confiscate ten percent of your money ,for as many years as it takes, to pay for the liberal ponzi scheme.

Totally baloney. The Debt you are so concerned about is Reagan's baby. Trickle down economics didn't work. Two wars on borrowed money were NOT started by liberals.

A very simple couple of questions: If the gang in charge didn't want to pass the growing debt under Reagan on to myt grandchildren, why did they? What was their plan to pay the debt down, and why did deficits not matter when Republicans were in the White House?

John Smith
01-25-2015, 08:33 AM
Retirement is not an option. I should have joined a union or gotten a municipal job years ago. I'm stuck in small business land with no hope for good benifits or a respectable wage for what I do.

My plan is to work until I can't and if life on SS really sucks then I'll take something to go to sleep forever.

On a side note, I did pretty well for not having parents . . . . But I still guessed wrong that hard work would be my answer, it's all about positioning. A lovely society we've built for our selves isn't it.

This is why there are safety nets. If your retirement income is limited, there is subsidized housing. There is Medicaid or Medicare depending on your income and assets.

Another side of retirement, for many, is expenses go down a bit.

Many have planned and still had serious problems. Enron comes to mind. In the 2009 crash, many lost pensions. My governor is attacking state employee pensions. Anything but raise taxes on the 'job creators". Maybe we should cut their taxes AFTER they create the jobs.

genglandoh
01-25-2015, 09:49 AM
Retirement is not an option. I should have joined a union or gotten a municipal job years ago. I'm stuck in small business land with no hope for good benifits or a respectable wage for what I do.

My plan is to work until I can't and if life on SS really sucks then I'll take something to go to sleep forever.

On a side note, I did pretty well for not having parents . . . . But I still guessed wrong that hard work would be my answer, it's all about positioning. A lovely society we've built for our selves isn't it.

From what I have read SS is designed to give you about 40% of your current take home pay.
You still have some options
1. Move out of CT to a lower cost area with lower heating and cooling costs.
Think of NC, SC or FL.
2. Get a friend your age as a roommate
The show Golden Girls was about a few women who lived together during retirement so they could get by.

One can also find a young rich girl to be you sugar mama but in my case that would kill me.|:)

genglandoh
01-25-2015, 10:07 AM
From what I have read SS is designed to give you about 40% of your current take home pay.
You still have some options
1. Move out of CT to a lower cost area with lower heating and cooling costs.
Think of NC, SC or FL.
2. Get a friend your age as a roommate
The show Golden Girls was about a few women who lived together during retirement so they could get by.

One can also find a young rich girl to be you sugar mama but in my case that would kill me.|:)

Just as an example here is nice home in the nice town of Medina OH.
238 N Broadway St Medina, OH 44256
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/238-N-Broadway-St_Medina_OH_44256_M30725-80427?row=1
1. The house has 2 apartments each with 2 bed 1 bath and kitchen.
2. It is only $107,000
3. Payments would be about $400 month.
4. Taxes are $1,501 per year.
5. You can walk to everything and get rid of your car.
6. Rent out one apartment and live rent free.

Here is some data about the city.
http://www.city-data.com/city/Medina-Ohio.html

DMillet
01-25-2015, 10:48 AM
And remember..the liberal agenda, making promises that others must keep, has created a monster. The promise shortfall is so great that the IMF has proposed.....

“The sharp deterioration of the public finances in many countries has revived interest in a “capital levy”— a one-off tax on private wealth—as an exceptional measure to restore debt sustainability."

… The conditions for success are strong, but also need to be weighed against the risks of the alternatives, which include repudiating public debt or inflating it away. …

The tax rates needed to bring down public debt to precrisis levels, moreover, are sizable: reducing debt ratios to end-2007 levels would require (for a sample of 15 euro area countries) a tax rate of about 10 percent on households with positive net wealth. (page 49)”

they want to confiscate ten percent of your money ,for as many years as it takes, to pay for the liberal ponzi scheme.

Let's make one thing very clear the "liberal agenda" was put to rest by Ronald Reagan. We've been living the conservative agenda ever since. The result has been the near destruction of the middle class and almost all the decent paying jobs for regular people. That conservative agenda has had thirty five years to prove itself. It has utterly failed. In contrast the "liberal agenda" of FDR essentially brought this country to the pinnacle of economic power in the forty years before Reagan danced on it's grave.

We could do a lot worse than to return to the liberal fiscal policies of the post WWII years.

MiddleAgesMan
01-25-2015, 11:37 AM
Saving 10% for life is no guarantee against financial destitution. All it takes in the great old US of A is a catastrophic illness and everything you've saved is gone. Good insurance can cushion the blow, and the ACA has helped a little but we need universal health care to take the risk down to almost zero.

leikec
01-25-2015, 11:49 AM
I've saved all my life, and I'm glad I did--it's allowed me to buy a better standard of care for my wife during her cancer battle. At some point though there's a limit to how much I can pay, and at the end of this my savings will be a shadow of what they've been, and SSI will be a much more important component of whatever retirement I have, whether I like it or not.

If you think having health insurance insulates you from paying large out of pocket sums when a family member is sick you are kidding yourself. Just this week I paid out a large sum of money for Avastin because it's one of the only treatments left for my wife--what should I do, tell her that we need to economize and save our money?

The good news is that I do have more time (I hope) to work, and to save. The problem is that I'm having to decide whether to stay aggressively invested, and leave myself vulnerable to a big correction in the market, or draw back and hope for the best.

Jeff C

slug
01-25-2015, 12:07 PM
Saving 10% for life is no guarantee against financial destitution. All it takes in the great old US of A is a catastrophic illness and everything you've saved is gone. Good insurance can cushion the blow, and the ACA has helped a little but we need universal health care to take the risk down to almost zero.

hmm...... i never asked for any guarantee.. Future promises are a liberal thing.

my 10 percent x 45 years has given me substantial firepower. You back me into a corner and i can put up one hell of a fight .
You back a liberal into a corner , they will shout injustice, grab their Iphone , then jump into the social safety net.

Too many liberals and the whole safety net colapses.

Promises mean nothing.

paulf
01-25-2015, 12:08 PM
One more thing, When you save, others have your money. If "they" lose it or bankers/ wall street steal it you are still a loser.

Nothing is a sure thing. My retirement is comfortable in a minimalist way, I have no debt and I own my home. I've got some savings.

I will never own a car younger than 10 years, I will never have a boat worth more than $4000. The tools I own have been collected over a lifetime.

I OK with all of that, but "they" could still ruin me. I'm not even near wealthy, my county has reduced my property taxes because I'm retired and my income is lower and fixed, Obama care has made our insurance reasonable.

But if SS was destroyed I would in trouble. I payed into this all my life from 16 years old It's not an entitlement I payed for it. But "they" could screw it up in a heart beat.

ccmanuals
01-25-2015, 12:15 PM
This year I turn 66 and the wife and I are planning what to do and where to go to retire. My goal for the last 40-50 years has been to try and make as much in retirement as I do now. Which BTW is very comfortable for us. We will be selling our home in San Antonio and as it looks right now will move to Florida. Although Texas does have an affordable cost of living and no income taxes their property taxes are extremely high. To sustain us through our retirement years I will have my military pension, civil service pension, FERs saving plan plus social security. Also we have significant equity in our home in Texas. We should do fine and are excited this next life's adventure.

Let me add that we are having fun looking for a place in Florida. Our plan is to pay cash for a home and we are currently looking at the West coast with a focus on Ft. Meyer, Cape Coral, Punta Gorda area. A canal home (with boat lift) and pool are actually quite affordable and taxes are significantly lower than Texas. We are also considering a condo or villa with those same amenities. My retirement activities will include lots of travel, golf and fishing (not necessarily in that order).

slug
01-25-2015, 12:23 PM
One more thing, When you save, others have your money. If "they" lose it or bankers/ wall street steal it you are still a loser.

Nothing is a sure thing. My retirement is comfortable in a minimalist way, I have no debt and I own my home. I've got some savings.

I will never own a car younger than 10 years, I will never have a boat worth more than $4000. The tools I own have been collected over a lifetime.

I OK with all of that, but "they" could still ruin me. I'm not even near wealthy, my county has reduced my property taxes because I'm retired and my income is lower and fixed, Obama care has made our insurance reasonable.

But if SS was destroyed I would in trouble. I payed into this all my life from 16 years old It's not an entitlement I payed for it. But "they" could screw it up in a heart beat.


This is true, you just never know how policy makers will solve issues.

when i look at my safe, fixed interest , investments that are generating near zero returns i get angry. This is state theft.

i may be lucky because my age group might skim thru before the whole house of cards folds.

I have great sympathy for young people just getting started, they have a difficult, unpredictable future.

leikec
01-25-2015, 12:26 PM
This is true, you just never know how policy makers will solve issues.

when i look at my safe, fixed interest , investments that are generating near zero returns i get angry. This is state theft.

i may be lucky because my age group might skim thru before the whole house of cards folds.

I have great sympathy for young people just getting started, they have a difficult, unpredictable future.


Your last sentence has always been true.

Jeff C

leikec
01-25-2015, 12:36 PM
Retirement is not an option. I should have joined a union or gotten a municipal job years ago. I'm stuck in small business land with no hope for good benifits or a respectable wage for what I do.

My plan is to work until I can't and if life on SS really sucks then I'll take something to go to sleep forever.

On a side note, I did pretty well for not having parents . . . . But I still guessed wrong that hard work would be my answer, it's all about positioning. A lovely society we've built for our selves isn't it.


McMike,

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

Jeff C

Norman Bernstein
01-25-2015, 12:43 PM
I.
The good news is that I do have more time (I hope) to work, and to save. The problem is that I'm having to decide whether to stay aggressively invested, and leave myself vulnerable to a big correction in the market, or draw back and hope for the best.


Well, it's not too late. There are some strategies you could use.

First, whatever savings you CAN do should be tax leveraged... in an IRA. Those investments grow tax free, although it does lock up your money until age 59 1/2, unless you want to pay a 10% penalty. Furthermore, if you're over 50, you can save $6500, instead of $5500, per year (this is a 'catch-up' provision, just for people like you). The dividends will accumulate, tax free.

Regarding what to invest in: you can get wildly disparate advice on this. Some experts suggest putting the money into index funds, which essentially means that your investments will track whatever the particular index does (indexes mean things like the S&P 500, or the Dow Jones Industrial Index, etc). These funds have the advantage of very low expenses. Another alternative: target date funds. These funds adjust their mix of equities and fixed income investments, as the years progress, becoming more conservative as you approach retirement age. These funds do have management fees, so thier performance needs to be examined carefully.

I offer an alternate suggestion: invest, instead, in solid large cap blue chip stocks, with really strong brand names and long unbroken records of dividend payouts and dividend increases. This is exactly what I do. Stocks like Coca Cola, Colgate Palmolive, etc.

The strategy: these stocks may go up and down, as the market does.... but the income derived from the dividends will continue, in up and down markets. Over the long term, or very long term, you'll still get the benefit of capital appreciation, but the income stream will be unaffected (with the possible exception of an Armageddon/Apocalypse :) )

Using this strategy, I end up beating Schwab's 'moderately aggressive' benchmark by several percent, in every time frame.... I never do worse than that benchmark.

Of course, you should use a discount broker. I use Schwab, but there are a number of other fine ones that are just as inexpensive. I happen to like the service I get from Schwab, but it may be due to the fact that I manage the entire family's investments, so the total is pretty high.

leikec
01-25-2015, 12:49 PM
Well, it's not too late. There are some strategies you could use.

First, whatever savings you CAN do should be tax leveraged... in an IRA. Those investments grow tax free, although it does lock up your money until age 59 1/2, unless you want to pay a 10% penalty. Furthermore, if you're over 50, you can save $6500, instead of $5500, per year (this is a 'catch-up' provision, just for people like you). The dividends will accumulate, tax free.

Regarding what to invest in: you can get wildly disparate advice on this. Some experts suggest putting the money into index funds, which essentially means that your investments will track whatever the particular index does (indexes mean things like the S&P 500, or the Dow Jones Industrial Index, etc). These funds have the advantage of very low expenses. Another alternative: target date funds. These funds adjust their mix of equities and fixed income investments, as the years progress, becoming more conservative as you approach retirement age. These funds do have management fees, so thier performance needs to be examined carefully.

I offer an alternate suggestion: invest, instead, in solid large cap blue chip stocks, with really strong brand names and long unbroken records of dividend payouts and dividend increases. This is exactly what I do. Stocks like Coca Cola, Colgate Palmolive, etc.

The strategy: these stocks may go up and down, as the market does.... but the income derived from the dividends will continue, in up and down markets. Over the long term, or very long term, you'll still get the benefit of capital appreciation, but the income stream will be unaffected (with the possible exception of an Armageddon/Apocalypse :) )

Using this strategy, I end up beating Schwab's 'moderately aggressive' benchmark by several percent, in every time frame.... I never do worse than that benchmark.

Of course, you should use a discount broker. I use Schwab, but there are a number of other fine ones that are just as inexpensive. I happen to like the service I get from Schwab, but it may be due to the fact that I manage the entire family's investments, so the total is pretty high.


I also use Schwab. Thanks for your advice! At age 58, I'm kind of right at the age where, in an idealized world, I would absolutely start dialing back my more aggressive investment plays.

Jeff C

paulf
01-25-2015, 01:32 PM
Sometimes there just isn't enough to go around. I know most of you guys have no ideal what it is like to decide whether to buy gas or milk this week.

Yes in fact I do.

"(with the possible exception of an Armageddon/Apocalypse :) )" I don't think it would even take something that drastic, just a healthy bushel of greed combined with stupid government would do the trick.

slug
01-25-2015, 01:35 PM
Sometimes there just isn't enough to go around. I know most of you guys have no ideal what it is like to decide whether to buy gas or milk this week.


Sure...i missed a few years because things didnt work out. This will be a bad year , i wont make the ten percent rule.

If your whole life is plagued by years that just didnt work out , then this is a different issue.

Its really important that people behave and save in line with best practice advice .


you know this best practice advice will be wrong or circumstances will change.

No one told me when I was young that I will need an addition 200 thousand dollars in retirement savings to pay for future out of pocket medical expenses.

now I know.

Norman Bernstein
01-25-2015, 01:38 PM
Yes in fact I do.

"(with the possible exception of an Armageddon/Apocalypse :) )" I don't think it would even take something that drastic, just a healthy bushel of greed combined with stupid government would do the trick.

Well, there are varying degrees of 'Armageddon/apocalypse' that could occur. The issue is whether one is appropriately positioned for the more likely examples of economic downturns, or not.

That's why it would be foolish to depend on capital gains in one's retirement; as we've all experienced in the last several decades, the stock market does periodically contract... and those who have strategized how to withstand, or 'ride out' the contractions, are the ones who win.

Let's face it: in a 'true' Armegeddon, nobody survives, with the exception of the survivalists. Everyone has to determine for themselves whether such a scenario is likely in their lifetimes... and just how much in the way of resources, time, and effort, thy want to invest in preparing for it.

I'll go with history; the risk of cataclysm is low, but the risk of a periodic contraction is high. I prepare for the latter, not the former.

paulf
01-25-2015, 01:42 PM
Sure...i missed a few years because things didnt work out. This will be a bad year , i wont make the ten percent rule.

If your whole life is plagued by years that just didnt work out , then this is a different issue.

Its really important that people behave and save in line with best practice advice .


you know this best practice advice will be wrong or circumstances will change.

No one told me when I was young that I will need an addition 200 thousand dollars in retirement savings to pay for future out of pocket medical expenses.

now I know.

I had an aortic valve replaced due to a birth defect I didn't know I had until I was 58. Close to $200,000 for the fix. I have a healthy heart now and there was no damage to the system.

Insurance covered the whole thing. If I didn't have it, I would be living under a bridge now.

McMike
01-25-2015, 01:42 PM
McMike,

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

Jeff C

40, why do you ask?

slug
01-25-2015, 01:49 PM
I had an aortic valve replaced due to a birth defect I didn't know I had until I was 58. Close to $200,000 for the fix. I have a healthy heart now and there was no damage to the system.

Insurance covered the whole thing. If I didn't have it, I would be living under a bridge now.

i worry about old age homes. A friends mom has alzheimer's. she is now in an assited living home. Eye watering expensive.

McMike
01-25-2015, 01:52 PM
What does joining a union or a municipal job have to do with the idea of saving? If people would learn to save 10% right off the top from the start they would never miss the money. It just takes discipline.

Municipal and union jobs have excellent pay and benefits. I get neither.


Right now I'm working on saving 6 months expenses. I've been working at this for two years now and if all goes well I'll have it in another two years. After that 10% into a retirement fund of some kind. It won't get me far though and all I have to do is get really sick, cancer, heart attack, anything that puts me outta work for more than 6 months and I lose everything. I don't have short or long term disability insurance and can't afford it and if I can't work my employer will replace me within a month.

Discipline, sure I've got it, but it won't mount to crap in my retirement. FWIW, I wiped out the $10,000 I had in a 401k during the recession that was my last chance to gain any benifit from compound interest because I'm unable to put so little in, 25 years isn't enough time to build anything meaningful. It takes money to make money and Ive got very little.

peb
01-25-2015, 02:14 PM
I also use Schwab. Thanks for your advice! At age 58, I'm kind of right at the age where, in an idealized world, I would absolutely start dialing back my more aggressive investment plays.

Jeff C




Having to stay aggressively invested at your age (I am in the same boat, or will be in a few years) is a result of monetary policy the last few years of the federal reserve. negative real rates of interest on short/mid term and zero real rates in longer term for so long has had many, many bad consequences. savers have been penalized. Those underneath the helicopter have benefited immensely. the vast majority have been hurt. little or no economic benefit. As libs love to point out: Trickle down economics does not work.

slug
01-25-2015, 02:28 PM
Having to stay aggressively invested at your age (I am in the same boat, or will be in a few years) is a result of monetary policy the last few years of the federal reserve. negative real rates of interest on short/mid term and zero real rates in longer term for so long has had many, many bad consequences. savers have been penalized. Those underneath the helicopter have benefited immensely. the vast majority have been hurt. little or no economic benefit. As libs love to point out: Trickle down economics does not work.


You are taught to be conservative with retirement savings .... only investments that are slow and steady , with a balance of stocks and bonds and currencies. The present interest rates make us look like fools. Im doing tax returns right now. A 27 thousand euro CD returned 69 euros. Subtract postage , accountant fee, official translation , capital gains and I lost money. It looks like I will be trapped in this nightmare for years.

My advisers tells me to jump into European equities to ride the QE wave and disregard all previous best practice advise .

Grrrrrr

McMike
01-25-2015, 02:44 PM
From what I have read SS is designed to give you about 40% of your current take home pay.
You still have some options

Closer to 30% according to my last statement.


1. Move out of CT to a lower cost area with lower heating and cooling costs.
Think of NC, SC or FL.
I'll probably have to ex-pat in order to have any kind of quality of life. But yes, this isn't news to me.


2. Get a friend your age as a roommate
The show Golden Girls was about a few women who lived together during retirement so they could get by.


I have a girlfriend who will probably become my wife, she's 7 years younger than me, so there's that. ;)

I'm not afraid of roommates, that's easy.


One can also find a young rich girl to be you sugar mama but in my case that would kill me.|:)

My girl isn't rich and I don't think she's into polyamory, I'll have to ask.

I guess the question is, why should someone making better money than 60% of the population rely on SS? Historically, I would be making 30% more and my company would have a pension fund for me. FWIW, the same conservatives who have gutted the middle class would like to see that SS is gone by the time I need it. Aren't you on their side?

slug
01-25-2015, 02:46 PM
Closer to 30% according to my last statement.


I'll probably have to ex-pat in order to have any kind of quality of life. But yes, this isn't news to me.



I have a girlfriend who will probably become my wife, she's 7 years younger than me, so there's that. ;)

I'm not afraid of roommates, that's easy.



My girl isn't rich and I don't think she's into polyamory, I'll have to ask.

I guess the question is, why should someone making better money than 60% of the population rely on SS? Historically, I would be making 30% more and my company would have a pension fund for me. FWIW, the same conservatives who have gutted the middle class would like to see that SS is gone by the time I need it. Aren't you on their side?


Come on...wise up.

Get a lifestyle coach, a new haircut...morph into a politician, promise free beer, get elected , then ride the gravy train to riches.

leikec
01-25-2015, 02:49 PM
40, why do you ask?


I was just wondering, trying to decide if you were younger than me. I'm 58.
If you stay healthy,you've still got a ton of time to make good money till you retire, and the time value of money can really work for you.

Good luck!

Jeff C

McMike
01-25-2015, 02:56 PM
I was just wondering, trying to decide if you were younger than me. I'm 58.
If you stay healthy,you've still got a ton of time to make good money till you retire, and the time value of money can really work for you.

Good luck!

Jeff C

Thanks Jeff, good luck to you as well.

I don't deny that I have a chance at a relatively comfortable, if spartan, retirement. I don't think the next 25 years will be nearly as good, economically speaking, as the last. I think we're looking at a climate much like the last 7 years, if that's the case, I'm screwed.

bob winter
01-25-2015, 02:58 PM
Retirement holds no interest for me. If I don't the mind active, all is lost.

genglandoh
01-25-2015, 03:52 PM
40, why do you ask?

You have plenty of time to get a good retirement program in place.

Norman Bernstein
01-25-2015, 03:53 PM
Having to stay aggressively invested at your age (I am in the same boat, or will be in a few years) is a result of monetary policy the last few years of the federal reserve. negative real rates of interest on short/mid term and zero real rates in longer term for so long has had many, many bad consequences.

Basing one's retirement investments on short and mid-term interest rates is the fool's choice.... no matter how much you feel compelled to disparage the Federal Reserve.


As libs love to point out: Trickle down economics does not work.

Well, if you agree with that, then you've got a problem: I've yet to hear a potential candidate for the Presidency, from the right, who isn't a 'trickle down' guy.

Tom Wilkinson
01-25-2015, 05:14 PM
Retirement holds no interest for me. If I don't the mind active, all is lost.

Why does retirement mean the mind has to be inactive? My grandmother (prior to her death at 98) and both my parents are busier in retirement than they were working. They are just doing it more on their terms now. That sounds pretty good to me.

I'll do another 12 years where I'm working then retire*. That in no way means I will be inactive.

*barring some event that makes that option impossible

Sky Blue
01-25-2015, 06:14 PM
In the end, having a "secure" or "reasonable" or "fair" retirement hinges on what your expectations are in view of what you believe you deserve or are entitled to. Reasonable food, clothing, shelter, health care, and a boat, with some travel, will do nicely for me in retirement. I don't necessarily need to "own" my home, though that would be nice. My expectations are modest.

I am self-employed, with medical benefits provided by my wife's employ. There were many years where "we" paid for them out of pocket as neither of us had employer-provided health care. In many parts of the world, the idea that one can just stop working at a certain age and rest comfortable until life's end no matter how far off that may be is but a fantasy, and in fact the same was true for most generations of Americans except for the last 3 maybe 4. Today's challenges are nothing new.

My expectations are fairly low, I think, as I have little retirement savings and pay substantially more for housing than most here on this forum. If I lived elsewhere it is true that I would have less income, presumably, but housing costs would be so much lower that I could save more. The nature of my work is also such that I can do it physically, with reasonable health, really as long as I would need to. Obviously that is not the ideal scenario, but I am glad I can fall back on it if need be.

One thing I have always made sure of is life insurance. We both have it. The survivor of us will come into some good money which will no doubt be a comfort, and then so shall my daughter if she survives us both. I also started a college savings plan for my daughter the month she was born. It has not performed as well as I would have liked, but there are still several years to go, and its existence will likely make a big difference for us as we finance her education.

But the housing issue is the big one. It is the California conundrum. Most eventually sell their homes, move somewhere much cheaper and scale back their living standards. The "house" is the retirement, in part. In view of its cost, it ought to be.

And for all of the Social Security contributions I have made and will continue to make, you're damn right I'm going to pick up a pitchfork if it is not around for me at the end of the day, especially in view of all the free stuff given out currently that I help to fund, and that my daughter will help to fund, being that a good deal of it is financed anyway.

Norman Bernstein
01-25-2015, 06:21 PM
I'm essentially discounting the value of my house, in terms of retirement planning. It has, of course, appreciated significantly since we built it nearly 40 years ago (although when analyzed in terms of nnual compound appreciation, it's not all that impressive).

The thing is, we'll always need some place to live. Friends of ours have moved to 'over 55' communities, with either separate (smaller) houses, or townhouses.... and they're beautiful.... but they cost about as much as my home is worth, so it's a draw.

My retirement is basically the earnings of what I've invested... and the big challenge is determining how much can be withdrawn annually without jeopardizing the ability to live longer than possibly anticipated. The experts argue that 4% is the maximum rate. I think it can be slightly higher than that, if appropriately invested.... but not much more than that.

So, if you've got a million, think in terms of $40,000 plus Social Security, every year. For some, that's more than enough.... for others, not sufficient.

Ted Hoppe
01-26-2015, 12:03 AM
In the end, having a "secure" or "reasonable" or "fair" retirement hinges on what your expectations are in view of what you believe you deserve or are entitled to. Reasonable food, clothing, shelter, health care, and a boat, with some travel, will do nicely for me in retirement. I don't necessarily need to "own" my home, though that would be nice. My expectations are modest.

I am self-employed, with medical benefits provided by my wife's employ. There were many years where "we" paid for them out of pocket as neither of us had employer-provided health care. In many parts of the world, the idea that one can just stop working at a certain age and rest comfortable until life's end no matter how far off that may be is but a fantasy, and in fact the same was true for most generations of Americans except for the last 3 maybe 4. Today's challenges are nothing new.

My expectations are fairly low, I think, as I have little retirement savings and pay substantially more for housing than most here on this forum. If I lived elsewhere it is true that I would have less income, presumably, but housing costs would be so much lower that I could save more. The nature of my work is also such that I can do it physically, with reasonable health, really as long as I would need to. Obviously that is not the ideal scenario, but I am glad I can fall back on it if need be.
.......
But the housing issue is the big one. It is the California conundrum. Most eventually sell their homes, move somewhere much cheaper and scale back their living standards. The "house" is the retirement, in part. In view of its cost, it ought to be.

Yep. the California dream is one that ends with a move out of state. we are planning a simpler life in a smaller home in a place like Prescott AZ. Sell the boat and bike everywhere. Have a small business to bring in revenue plus investments. we are realistic and are making sure we enjoy our time together doing everything we would want early in life. We recognize hard work for work sake and struggle for prestigious career is over rated. no one ever said upon the deathbed - I am sure I worked overtime and missed most holidays and never took a vacation.

If we could figure out how to live in France in our late golden years that wouldn't be bad. They respect people and end of life. Their medical kindness is something almost unimaginable to Americans. We are working on an arranged marraige for my son to a lovely French national. hope he likes his parents choices.

slug
01-26-2015, 07:41 AM
France is a nice place to retire...for millionaires.

John Smith
01-26-2015, 08:18 AM
There's one part of this whole subject that needs to be kept in mind. Health issues. Some people are fortunate and have a lot of retired years with great health. Many others are not so fortunate, and that puts a real bummer on the 'golden years".

John Smith
01-26-2015, 08:19 AM
France is a nice place to retire...for millionaires.

I'd guess there a lots of great places for millionaires.

genglandoh
01-26-2015, 10:33 AM
France is a nice place to retire...for millionaires.

No France is not a great place to retire for millionaires.

France has lost ONE MILLION jobs because of repressive tax regime as 60,000 of the country's rich now live abroad, report claims
The figures were released amid a flood of wealthy French quitting France this year to avoid a looming socialist tax of 75 per cent on all earnings over one million euros - about 850,000.
Film star Gerard Depardieu, the Mulliez family who own the Auchan supermarket chain, electronic music icon Jean-Michel Jarre and France's richest man Bernard Arnault have all quit France in the past six months.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2298936/France-lost-million-jobs-repressive-tax-regime-report-claims.html#ixzz3PwS8p5Pz

Ted Hoppe
01-26-2015, 10:33 AM
I'd guess there a lots of great places for millionaires.

there are a lot of great places to go. Problem with the states is the nest egg you put away evaporates when a spouse or yourself has a long term illness. Those with pensions and life long health benefits are ok but the rest start to end up in a trailer park in the middle of undesirability.

slug
01-26-2015, 12:53 PM
Ask Rum Pirate. st Kitts has many benifits for retired folks.

purri
01-26-2015, 08:19 PM
Europe incl France has many affordable places to live comfortably. (good health care too)

genglandoh
01-30-2015, 12:09 PM
I have been reviewing my options for retirement.
I am planning to
1. Work until I am 70
2. Start to take my SS at age 70.
3. Have my home paid off in full with no home equity loans.
4. Downsize to a smaller home in a lower cost area.
5. Up my 401K from 10% to 15% at age 60.
6. Pay off my kids college loans.
Today we are spending about 30% of our combined take home pay for my 3 kids college loans.

So if I can reduce my living expenses by 40% we will have no problems in retirement.
The 40% comes from the 30% for the college loans and 10% from downsizing and living in a lower cost area.
We will also stop putting the 15% into our 401K so this will be the extra for emergencies.

I just used a retirement calculator tool at our companies website and I was shocked in a good way.
1. If I increase my 401k from 10% to 16% today
2. Retire at age 70
3. Start taking my SS at age 70.
I should have about 90% of what I will need to live the same life I have today.
But considering I will have paid off the kids loans by then I should have enough.

So I increase it from 10% to 16% today.

This will give me a few options
1. Retire at 70, do not lower my costs and I will be OK.
2. Retire at 70, downsize, lower my costs and have a surplus.
3. Retire before 70, downsize, lower my costs and be OK but I will have more time to enjoy life.

Here are some retirement calculators you can use.
1. First get your SS estimate
http://www.ssa.gov/retire2/estimator.htm
2. Then go to the AARP site.
http://www.aarp.org/work/retirement-planning/retirement_calculator.html#/your-options (http://www.aarp.org/work/retirement-planning/retirement_calculator.html#/your-options)

leikec
01-30-2015, 12:17 PM
I just used a retirement calculator tool at our companies website and I was shocked in a good way.
1. If I increase my 401k from 10% to 16% today
2. Retire at age 70
3. Start taking my SS at age 70.
I should have about 90% of what I will need to live the same life I have today.
But considering I will have paid off the kids loans by then I should have enough.

So I increase it from 10% to 16% today.

This will give me a few options
1. Retire at 70, do not lower my costs and I will be OK.
2. Retire at 70, downsize, lower my costs and have a surplus.
3. Retire before 70, downsize, lower my costs and be OK but I will have more time to enjoy life.

Here are some retirement calculators you can use.
1. First get your SS estimate
http://www.ssa.gov/retire2/estimator.htm
2. Then go to the AARP site.
http://www.aarp.org/work/retirement-planning/retirement_calculator.html#/your-options (http://www.aarp.org/work/retirement-planning/retirement_calculator.html#/your-options)

How old are you, Geng?

In my immediate family I'm the last one living. My sister died at 43, my dad was 64, and my mom was sick for a long time before dying at age 70. Almost all of my aunts and uncles died before age 70.

Jeff C

genglandoh
01-30-2015, 12:23 PM
How old are you, Geng?

In my immediate family I'm the last one living. My sister died at 43, my dad was 64, and my mom was sick for a long time before dying at age 70. Almost all of my aunts and uncles died before age 70.

Jeff C

I am 58.
My father is 90 and all my uncles lived over 90 except 1 who died at 85.
I do get your point.
This would be a lot easier if we knew when we were going to die.

genglandoh
01-30-2015, 12:41 PM
Using the AARP website I did the following example
1. married age 40 wife age 35.
2. Total income $50,000
3. 402K savings or 10%
4. Assume no SS benefits
5. Reduction in lifestyle to 75%

Minimum needed to retire:$303,390.17
What you will have saved:$520,846.23

So even without SS you can save enough for retirement.

http://www.aarp.org/work/retirement-planning/retirement_calculator.html#/your-options

Norman Bernstein
01-30-2015, 01:11 PM
http://www.aarp.org/work/retirement-planning/retirement_calculator.html#/your-options

I would caution anyone who uses these kinds of retirement planners to take the results with a grain of salt... in fact, a whole tablespoon of salt. These calculators make such broad and nonspecific assumptions about so many factors, I believe they're nearly useless. This particular one, for example, doesn't even detail HOW one's retirement money is invested, what a reasonable invested return might be, what annual variations might do to the invested assets, and a whole host of other factors.

Even the idea of assigning a percentage to the level at which you need to live, based on your extraordinarily rough assessment of your desired lifestyle, is bankrupt. In real life, ones needs are constantly shifting.... saying that you believe you can live comfortably on, say, 75% of your pre-retirement income, might be valid for a few years after retirement... but will dramatically change over the rest of your life, as circumstances change. If you or your wife becomes incapacitated and needs to enter a retirement facility, or, worse yet, a nursing home, those initial assumptions will be useless.

At best, I think all one can really do is to consider how much they've invested for retirement, and presume some nominal rate of withdrawal, accounting for how much the investments will generate in terms of dividends and/or capital gains over the period of retirement. A generally accepted figure is 4%, which is probably safe, although I think even that figure depends on how your investments are deployed.

slug
01-30-2015, 01:13 PM
Something to think about.

Every economist who specializes in future trends believes that economic growth for the next 20 years will be below average. This means that pension fund returns will be below average.

every economist who studies future trends believes that your tax burden will rise as you approach retirement .

The only way to overcome these trends is to Save MORE than the minimum recommended and start TODAY.

Norman Bernstein
01-30-2015, 01:14 PM
Something to think about.

Every economist who specializes in future trends believes that economic growth for the next 20 years will be below average. This means that pension fund returns will be below average.

every economist who studies future trends believes that your tax burden will rise as you approach retirement .


EVERY economist? Every single one? :):):)

slug
01-30-2015, 01:19 PM
Every one..li have never heard a future economic forecast that leeds me to believe that the good times are ahead

. Every forcast warns of decelerating growth and huge sovereign debts

Norman Bernstein
01-30-2015, 02:06 PM
Every one..li have never heard a future economic forecast that leeds me to believe that the good times are ahead

. Every forcast warns of decelerating growth and huge sovereign debts

I suspect You're missing a few economists.

Here's one:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/learnvest/2013/08/06/the-future-of-america-3-predictions-from-an-economic-guru/2/

slug
01-30-2015, 02:16 PM
Good grief...what is this guy selling.

read IMF reports instead of advertising

Norman Bernstein
01-30-2015, 02:44 PM
Good grief...what is this guy selling.

read IMF reports instead of advertising

Ahh, but you said 'every one'.... you didn't qualify that statement.

slug
01-30-2015, 02:52 PM
Europe is in deflation, china is hitting the wall, japan is too old , brazil is stuck in a funk, Russia is rationing food....

hard to see growth. Easy to see ballooning debt.

i believe the Bank of England official who i just heard speak on BBC. Sluggish growth, pressure on national budgets

Todd D
01-30-2015, 02:55 PM
From my point of view preparing for retirement isn't all that hard. Here are my simple rules/guidlines.

1. Get a decent education so you can get a decent job.

2. Assuming that you marry, marry someone with a good education and a career and do NOT have children.

3. Both you and your spouse work and live on the smaller income and use the larger income to pay off ALL debt including home loans as quickly as possible.

4. When you have eliminated debt, save 100% of the larger income.

5. When you have zero debt, do not buy anything you can't pay cash for.

6. Live a modest lifestyle (drive car(s) until they die, no expensive clothes or cell phones, don't take expensive vacations, live in a small house that costs less than your annual income, don't eat out more than once or twice a year, don't hire anything done that you can do yourself, learn to do basic home repairs, etc.).

If you do that you should be able to retire fairly young and continue your modest lifestyle. If you have zero debt and own your home, you can live quite comfortably on very little money.

genglandoh
01-30-2015, 03:42 PM
Using the AARP website I did the following example
1. married age 40 wife age 35.
2. Total income $50,000
3. 402K savings or 10%
4. Assume no SS benefits
5. Reduction in lifestyle to 75%

Minimum needed to retire:$303,390.17
What you will have saved:$520,846.23

So even without SS you can save enough for retirement.

http://www.aarp.org/work/retirement-planning/retirement_calculator.html#/your-options

As Norm has pointed out this is a very general kind of retirement tool with lots of assumptions.

But the general point are
1. if you save 10% of your income starting at age 40.
2. put it into a 401K type program

You should have enough money to retire on at age 70.
Great news.

McMike
01-30-2015, 05:06 PM
You have plenty of time to get a good retirement program in place.

Time, yes. Money, no. But it's all my fault, right?

There aren't even enough jobs to go around nevermind enough for me to work two jobs. And then what if there was? Work my whole life away, not enjoy any of it. As it is now I don't have enough to go away on vacation from year to year, I should just give up my evenings and weekends as well?

I make 30% less than my contemporaries back in the 90s. I'm missing at least $30,000 a year in wage and benefits. That's the market, controlled by the oligarchy. I make good money relative to the rest of America and cant afford the perks that my parents, who had less demanding jobs, got to enjoy when they were my age.

Anyway, hard work didn't pay off, I'm just getting by plus a few small luxuries.

FYI, when I was 22 back in 96 I got an entry level corporate job maintaining databases, I made $15/hour. That same wage today is $24/hour. I only make $7 and hour more than I made as an entry level employee, $7/hour for years of experience and dedication. I should be making near double what I'm making now. That's Reaganomics at work. Thatsall the fault of the republicans and you a55 hats who voted for them all these years. The middle class is dead and conservatives have the blood on their hands.

hanleyclifford
01-30-2015, 07:45 PM
Time, yes. Money, no. But it's all my fault, right?

There aren't even enough jobs to go around nevermind enough for me to work two jobs. And then what if there was? Work my whole life away, not enjoy any of it. As it is now I don't have enough to go away on vacation from year to year, I should just give up my evenings and weekends as well?

I make 30% less than my contemporaries back in the 90s. I'm missing at least $30,000 a year in wage and benefits. That's the market, controlled by the oligarchy. I make good money relative to the rest of America and cant afford the perks that my parents, who had less demanding jobs, got to enjoy when they were my age.

Anyway, hard work didn't pay off, I'm just getting by plus a few small luxuries.

FYI, when I was 22 back in 96 I got an entry level corporate job maintaining databases, I made $15/hour. That same wage today is $24/hour. I only make $7 and hour more than I made as an entry level employee, $7/hour for years of experience and dedication. I should be making near double what I'm making now. That's Reaganomics at work. Thatsall the fault of the republicans and you a55 hats who voted for them all these years. The middle class is dead and conservatives have the blood on their hands. And yet the limousine liberals cannot wait to drop trade restrictions and/or outsource your job.

McMike
01-30-2015, 08:46 PM
And yet the limousine liberals cannot wait to drop trade restrictions and/or outsource your job.

You just love that word don't you, limousine liberals, just rolls off the young doesn't it? Fiscal conservatives are still conservatives even if they side with liberals on social issues like gay marriage. I'm well aware of the "Business friendly" Dems, a rose by any other name is still a rose. The Conservative economic strategy stinks and is harmful to this country no matter who practices it. It's really very simple, put more money in the hands of the people who will spend it and the economy will roar.

Paul Pless
01-30-2015, 08:53 PM
Kind of ironic to be reading retirement advise from a guy that's planning on walking dogs to make ends meet when he's older. . .

genglandoh
01-30-2015, 09:04 PM
Kind of ironic to be reading retirement advise from a guy that's planning on walking dogs to make ends meet when he's older. . .

I love dogs, have had them all my life but when I retire I will not have a dog.
So getting paid to play with a dog sounds great to me.

Here is the thread for those who are interested.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/forumdisplay.php?5-The-Bilge

Boater14
01-30-2015, 09:12 PM
I don't know how old you are but I think the smart money guys would tell a 50 yo not to be too quick to pay off low interest student loans. whats the hurry, the kids are young. also, would someone post the current tally on the number of people who applied for social security and were told the well was dry. to listen to some here it must be in the millions.

hanleyclifford
01-30-2015, 09:13 PM
You just love that word don't you, limousine liberals, just rolls off the young doesn't it? Fiscal conservatives are still conservatives even if they side with liberals on social issues like gay marriage. I'm well aware of the "Business friendly" Dems, a rose by any other name is still a rose. The Conservative economic strategy stinks and is harmful to this country no matter who practices it. It's really very simple, put more money in the hands of the people who will spend it and the economy will roar. Yes, we might qualify that statement by saying "put more money in the hands of the American people who will spend it and the economy will roar".

genglandoh
01-30-2015, 09:15 PM
I don't know how old you are but I think the smart money guys would tell a 50 yo not to be too quick to pay off low interest student loans. whats the hurry, the kids are young.

Simple I want to go into retirement without any debt of any kind.
PS I posted that I am 58.

Boater14
01-31-2015, 08:19 AM
geng, im not sharpshooting. im just saying I know people who were paying student loans well into their 40's. the kids peak years are ahead of them. also, if id followed Todd's plan my grandson wouldn't be sitting in my lap watching flyfishing videos. he says " that's ones a beauty" like he heard me say. Dave, McMike like me may have a hard time visualizing himself as a banker.

John Smith
01-31-2015, 09:23 AM
As Norm has pointed out this is a very general kind of retirement tool with lots of assumptions.

But the general point are
1. if you save 10% of your income starting at age 40.
2. put it into a 401K type program

You should have enough money to retire on at age 70.
Great news.

I suspect everyone knows putting money away for retirement is a good thing. In the real world it is hard to do. Especially for those who need to do it the most. We have a lot of people working at minimum wage jobs who can barely manage to get by.

I would like to make one comment about retirement. I hate the term "fixed" income. It's more like a 'broken' income I wish someone would fix.

John Smith
01-31-2015, 09:29 AM
And yet the limousine liberals cannot wait to drop trade restrictions and/or outsource your job.

I have a problem with the entire discussion of trade agreements. Those opposed to them talk as if there was no outsourcing before NAFTA, and I know there was a lot of outsourcing before NAFTA. What I have not seen, and I keep asking Ed Schultz to put one up, is a chart comparing the ten years before NAFTA to the ten years after NAFTA.

He's among those who keep saying the proposed trade deal is NAFTA on steroids. One of his guests made remarks about how this would open the door to importing from China, as if that door wan't already open.

Those who oppose the proposed trade deal NEED to show us actual facts as to how NAFTA created more outsourcing or sped up the rate of outsourcing.

Otherwise, I have to assume it didn't really have much impact.

John Smith
01-31-2015, 09:30 AM
Yes, we might qualify that statement by saying "put more money in the hands of the American people who will spend it and the economy will roar".

I think that only works well if they spend it on things built in America.

ccmanuals
01-31-2015, 10:02 AM
https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10690273_10155098886265459_7082562207829348396_n.j pg?oh=5433d2d3a9c4d30d1e029e974d3897de&oe=555F7316

Ted Hoppe
01-31-2015, 10:34 AM
From my point of view preparing for retirement isn't all that hard. Here are my simple rules/guidlines.

1. Get a decent education so you can get a decent job.

2. Assuming that you marry, marry someone with a good education and a career and do NOT have children.

3. Both you and your spouse work and live on the smaller income and use the larger income to pay off ALL debt including home loans as quickly as possible.

4. When you have eliminated debt, save 100% of the larger income.

5. When you have zero debt, do not buy anything you can't pay cash for.

6. Live a modest lifestyle (drive car(s) until they die, no expensive clothes or cell phones, don't take expensive vacations, live in a small house that costs less than your annual income, don't eat out more than once or twice a year, don't hire anything done that you can do yourself, learn to do basic home repairs, etc.).

If you do that you should be able to retire fairly young and continue your modest lifestyle. If you have zero debt and own your home, you can live quite comfortably on very little money.

Marry a frumpy woman. don't get devorsed. Don't own a boat. Limit your children. Drive a single sensible car. Don't smoke or drink. Rarely go out to dinner. Grow your own food. Camp in your back yard for vacation or stay with in laws. Still die at 80.

there are few guarantees is life. The more ambitious the life choices (not for wages but for quality experience) the better one is at the end. Keeping to low middle class ideals and not grasping at great opportunities is wasting a wonderful life. You never now when a bad event will remove you from the living. Insurance companies pay out more to people who make the same wages that are active and engaging than those who have less activity and status.


my advice would be marry for the companionship, love, wisdom, intelligence. and beauty. Work on enriching ones life through work and passion. Don't do many toxins. Carry no debt other than a mortgage. Save 8 percent of you wages. spend 10 percent on personal enrichment, vacation and education. Read books. Watch current movies. See art. Go sailing with friends. Never ever forget to love each other as you grow. You will be ok at the end.

slug
01-31-2015, 10:41 AM
Marry a frumpy woman. don't get devorsed. Don't own a boat. Limit your children. Drive a single sensible car. Don't smoke or drink. Rarely go out to dinner. Grow your own food. Camp in your back yard for vacation or stay with in laws. Still die at 80.


Yup. You dont need to be stupid, only clever with how you approach life.

As they say, you only live once....enjoy life.

Norman Bernstein
01-31-2015, 10:52 AM
There are no universal answers or solutions for 'successful' retirement... everyone's situation is different, and calls for very different answers. Some people have been lucky to have lucrative careers, were able to save and invest, and upon retirement, could live comfortably at some reasonable approximation to their working lifestyle. Others may not have been as fortunate, and discover that retirement calls for sacrifices that they may not have anticipated. Still others might find themselves in comparatively dire straits at retirement age, and are unable to live comfortably.

I know of a woman who has had a successful professional career, is now 65, and would like to retire. The problem: her aged mother has run out of money, and the woman now is forced to support her mother in her old age.... and now, she's recently been laid off from her professional job, and job prospects for her are rather slim. It's not that she didn't plan and save for retirement.... she did... she just didn't count on the idea that her mother would become destitute, thereby throwing a monkey wrench into her pans and expectations. She certainly didn't plan to be job-searching at age 65, when she was close to considering retirement.

I can understand that someone in the middle of the arc of their working life can be discouraged; in their 40's, with a career and skillset that doesn't pay particularly well, and with expenses that seem to not allow for any retirement savings.

I'd be a fool to tell these people that they just have to retrain for a more lucrative career, start saving gobs of money, etc.... it is rarely that easy. It is, however, necessary, and for people like this, now is the time to make the sacrifices, not later. Admittedly, it is easy for me to say, since I've never been faced with that problem... but I do have some of my own crosses to bear, and I'll be accepting the consequences, as well. I can also say this, with some certainty: facing the necessity of change at age 40 is a great deal different than having to face those consequences at age 65.


Some of us live hand to mouth. Paycheck to paycheck. Doing what we enjoy and dancing the night away like the happy little grasshoppers that we are.
I'd rather live poor and happy for 70 years with 10 miserable years at the end, than 50 plus years of miserable slaving away for those promised 10 "golden years" at the end.

It doesn't have to be either/or.... you can live a satisfying life while still saving a little each month.... and avoid those miserable 10 years you speak of.

Ted Hoppe
01-31-2015, 11:09 AM
You are right Norm. There are no definitive answers to most peoples lots when it comes to retirement. Circumstances change at a blink of an eye and can be brutal as we get older. Having a nest egg is wise. Keeping healthy, energetic and engaged are keys to a successful wind down in life. those who do so are more likely in line for sustained quality of life and even able to negotiate when economics turn sour.

As for a route - we all need to retrain ourselves every day. Being involved in retraining and seeking and creating new educational opportunities are prudent and profitable. If we save just of the taste of those profitable moments we are better in our retirement.

Ted Hoppe
01-31-2015, 11:17 AM
Yes, Norman, I should have listened to my mother and done those 25 years as a prison guard. I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

If she would have said... Real estate holding, short term equity positions and federally backed high risk mortgage lending when you where at that first fast food job or cutting lawns in the summer things might have also been different.

slug
01-31-2015, 11:20 AM
Ive got a friend that lives hand and mouth. Paying back the bank chews up most of his extra cash, the rest he ejects from the exhaust pipe of his v8 pickup truck

Norman Bernstein
01-31-2015, 11:22 AM
Yes, Norman, I should have listened to my mother and done those 25 years as a prison guard. I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

Not if you hated the job. It's never worthwhile to spend a career doing something you don't want to do.

However, there are people who pursued their dream career, willfully blinded from the economic side effects. I'm going to guess that a lot of people who decided on a career in building small boats commercially thought it would be a very satisfying career, with a lot of pride in their own craftsmanship, the joy of working with one's hands, and so on.....

....but for many of them, that decision invoked an economic penalty, because there are (my guess) very few commercial small boat builders who make a really good income at it.

The same is true of people who want desperately to be entrepreneurs, and build a business. There's a romance to it, the promise of huge success, etc.... but there's also that nagging little fact that most start-ups fail. I know people who simply can't conceive of themselves as working a conventional job for a paycheck, and consequently NEVER give up on their entrepreneurial dreams.... but, as a consequence, never make any money at it. It's THEIR choice, isn't it?

I worked as an employee for 22 years... and then as an independent consultant for the next 20... and that included two shots at doing start-ups, one of which was successful for a while, the other, a failure. Fortunately, I was NOT one of those who couldn't conceive of working for a wage, so it didn't do me much damage, and was probably a GOOD thing, overall.

So, it seems to me that nobody should EVER work in a job they hate unless that have absolutely no alternative.... but nobody should blame their low incomes on any sort of inevitablity due to their karma.

Todd D
01-31-2015, 12:02 PM
Marry a frumpy woman. don't get devorsed. Don't own a boat. Limit your children. Drive a single sensible car. Don't smoke or drink. Rarely go out to dinner. Grow your own food. Camp in your back yard for vacation or stay with in laws. Still die at 80.

there are few guarantees is life. The more ambitious the life choices (not for wages but for quality experience) the better one is at the end. Keeping to low middle class ideals and not grasping at great opportunities is wasting a wonderful life. You never now when a bad event will remove you from the living. Insurance companies pay out more to people who make the same wages that are active and engaging than those who have less activity and status.


my advice would be marry for the companionship, love, wisdom, intelligence. and beauty. Work on enriching ones life through work and passion. Don't do many toxins. Carry no debt other than a mortgage. Save 8 percent of you wages. spend 10 percent on personal enrichment, vacation and education. Read books. Watch current movies. See art. Go sailing with friends. Never ever forget to love each other as you grow. You will be ok at the end.

You made a lot of assumptions there sonny. My wife is hardly "frumpy". She is smart and well educated. We don't exactly live a lower class lifestyle. True, I only have two yachts (36' sail and 33' vintage power) and neither was particularly expensive, but I am just as happy cruising on my $40K yacht as someone on a $500K yacht. I manage to keep my boats cheaply by doing all the maintenance myself. Our retirement home is a small shingled cottage within 300 yards of the ocean (google "mount desert island shingled cottage". The 300 yard coast strip is Acadia National Park, so I don't have neighbors there and can walk through the woods to the beach whenever I want. I could take vacations to exotic places, but prefer to cruise the coast of Maine on my boats. I don't have to go anywhere to do that. We don't eat out much, but our wine cellar (a feature of our lower class shack) is full of fine wines. True we don't eat much meat, but I had a lobster and swiss cheese omelette for breakfast this morning. Kids were not our thing. There are already too many people on Earth, so why make the problem worse. This country was much nicer when there were less than 200 million people in it. As far as limiting myself, I certainly didn't. I have everything I ever wanted and had a decent career as a professor as did my wife, although she went into law later in her career.

Norman Bernstein
01-31-2015, 12:17 PM
You made a lot of assumptions there sonny. My wife is hardly "frumpy". She is smart and well educated. We don't exactly live a lower class lifestyle. True, I only have two yachts (36' sail and 33' vintage power) and neither was particularly expensive, but I am just as happy cruising on my $40K yacht as someone on a $500K yacht. I manage to keep my boats cheaply by doing all the maintenance myself. Our retirement home is a small shingled cottage within 300 yards of the ocean - the 300 yard coast strip is a national park, so I don't have neighbors there and can walk through the woods to the beach whenever I want. we don't eat out much, but our wine cellar (a feature of our lower class shack) is full of fine wines. True we don't eat much meat, but I had a lobster and swiss cheese omelette for breakfast this morning. Kids were not our thing. There are already too many people on Earth, so why make the problem worse. This country was much nicer when there were less than 200 million people in it. As far as limiting myself, I certainly didn't. I have everything I ever wanted and had a decent career as a professor as did my wife, although she went into law later in her career.

I'd say you did remarkably well in life... TWO boats, and an oceanside retirement home? MOST people could only DREAM of something like that!

My retirement outlook is different, as it would be for every individual person. At the moment, I'm working for a high tech firm, the income is exceptionally good, I have a nice home (modest, by the standards of many of my friends, but fine for me), I have a beautiful 43' sailboat, and my investments have done somewhat better than I had hoped.

HOWEVER, I also have a wife with Parkinsons, who needs increasing amounts of my support as the years pass, and is destined to get a lot worse. The investment pile is good, but not enough to maintain the current lifestyle. My skills are 'generalist' in nature, which is perfect for my current job, but the company is a startup with no assurance that it will still be operating in another year or two, and my generalist skills are probably not in that high of a demand. I'm 63, and beginning to feel a few effects of old age. In short, circumstances could change on a dime...

...and that's my point, and why I say that retirement planning is, at best, a guesstimate of an uncertain future. About the only real 'protection' is a great deal of money, and that isn't obtainable for everyone. It is one of the reasons why Obamacare is critically important (for the next three years, at least), and why Medicare and Social Security are precious benefits that need to be protected at all costs.

Todd D
01-31-2015, 12:30 PM
...and that's my point, and why I say that retirement planning is, at best, a guesstimate of an uncertain future. About the only real 'protection' is a great deal of money, and that isn't obtainable for everyone. It is one of the reasons why Obamacare is critically important (for the next three years, at least), and why Medicare and Social Security are precious benefits that need to be protected at all costs.

I don't disagree with any of that Norman except for Obamacare which I dislike because it forces people into the private insurance market. I view that market as immoral. That said, I do think that Obamacare has made the health insurance market a bit less immoral because of the elimination of consideration of pre-existing condition exclusion, the cap of out of pocket expenses and the elimination of lifetime maximums. However, I would prefer a single payer system run by the federal government and paid for through taxation with no deductibles or copays. I have no objection to paying taxes when I get something for those taxes. I do object to paying taxes to support the military industrial complex.

Ted Hoppe
01-31-2015, 12:39 PM
You made a lot of assumptions there sonny. My wife is hardly "frumpy". She is smart and well educated. We don't exactly live a lower class lifestyle. True, I only have two yachts (36' sail and 33' vintage power) and neither was particularly expensive, but I am just as happy cruising on my $40K yacht as someone on a $500K yacht. I manage to keep my boats cheaply by doing all the maintenance myself. Our retirement home is a small shingled cottage within 300 yards of the ocean (google "mount desert island shingled cottage". The 300 yard coast strip is Acadia National Park, so I don't have neighbors there and can walk through the woods to the beach whenever I want. I could take vacations to exotic places, but prefer to cruise the coast of Maine on my boats. I don't have to go anywhere to do that. We don't eat out much, but our wine cellar (a feature of our lower class shack) is full of fine wines. True we don't eat much meat, but I had a lobster and swiss cheese omelette for breakfast this morning. Kids were not our thing. There are already too many people on Earth, so why make the problem worse. This country was much nicer when there were less than 200 million people in it. As far as limiting myself, I certainly didn't. I have everything I ever wanted and had a decent career as a professor as did my wife, although she went into law later in her career.

that at sounds pretty good to me. Is it possible to do an add on for that cottage. I'll do chores.

Todd D
01-31-2015, 02:01 PM
that at sounds pretty good to me. Is it possible to do an add on for that cottage. I'll do chores.

Already done. I built a workshop 10 years ago that I am transitioning over to a guest house. It was built with that possibility in mind so it is properly insulated and heated. How are you at traditional wooden boat maintenance?

Norman Bernstein
01-31-2015, 02:07 PM
I don't disagree with any of that Norman except for Obamacare which I dislike because it forces people into the private insurance market. I view that market as immoral. That said, I do think that Obamacare has made the health insurance market a bit less immoral because of the elimination of consideration of pre-existing condition exclusion, the cap of out of pocket expenses and the elimination of lifetime maximums.


You have just defined the word 'compromise', which is the meat and potatoes of politics... and of life :)

Ted Hoppe
01-31-2015, 10:00 PM
Already done. I built a workshop 10 years ago that I am transitioning over to a guest house. It was built with that possibility in mind so it is properly insulated and heated. How are you at traditional wooden boat maintenance?

My skills are pretty good. Lots of passion for restoration. Moreover - i am a great sidekick and cook.

I will need a free outlet to plug into until you are done

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_gbDzaIReY4/TtmZHfmLbXI/AAAAAAAABsU/AzVC0FMc_1E/s1600/image001.jpg

McMike
02-01-2015, 10:19 AM
I just came in from 3 hours in the garage since last reading this thread. It's nice to see rationality prevail. I got 12 feet of overhead fillets in place and glass tape on top of them for the pilot house on the skiff I'm building. My back aches, my knees ache, and my right arm hurts from the thumb on up to the elbow, but I'm 68, haven't had a job in 13 years, and quite happy about that.

I could have just bought another boat and popped it in my slip, but I've done that before. I bought the slip years ago, for a song, at a bankruptcy sale when a Canadian Corporation that developed the marina went belly up. Even the "oligarchs" have their problems from time to time. I could never see why folks had boats that they couldn't afford, and then paid rent to keep them in the water year round. Since I always was involved with boats I bought a slip. At times I've kept a boat there, but for years now I've rented it out. It pays for itself with about 11% return per annum on the original purchase price. It has appreciated several times over and I'll sell it sometime.

In our 20's my wife and I, when we weren't working, searched for rural land. We found 5 acres that wasn't in the location that we really wanted, didn't have the view we wanted, but was a distress sale. We bought it on a 5 year contract, the price was low, and we were still saving. When we were 29 I designed a modest 1000 sq ft home, prepared the plans, and got all the necessary permits. No hired help was necessary for that. We found a 25 year old 26 foot travel trailer for $1500 and moved it onto the property. I quit work for 6 months and started to build the house. We'd gone to the bank and asked for a construction loan. They weren't interested and told us people don't build their own homes.

In six months I had the outside finished and the electrical and plumbing installed. Not a single hired contractor for any of it. We paid for materials out of savings and the wife's income. I went back to work to recoup funds. We put the septic system in by hand, maybe that's why my back is shot. We lived in the travel trailer for 2 years until the house was ready for move in. We sold the $1500 travel trailer for 1400 bucks - 100 bucks for a two year roof over our heads seemed like a good deal. We had a $300 panel truck and a $125 station wagon. I kept them running and they never let us down.

We found ourselves in our mid 30's with good jobs, a paid for house and land, no mortgage, and savings. We could have kicked back, but my wife drove 90 miles one way after work several nights a week to pick up a masters degree in the evening. I was working full time at a good job but decided to go back to school in the evening for a second bachelor's degree. It was a bitch at times and it would have been easy to quit. Taking evening classes I met many other people who were working full time and going to school. People with far greater obligations, children, debts, health, and family demands than me. How could I not be inspired by their sacrifices and ambition? It all worked out. I became a more valuable employee and so did my wife. Shortly thereafter we decided to spend 30 days in Hawaii. When I came back to work I found an empty office. My boss told me everyone was given notice and had left. They didn't know where to send my notice. I figured no big deal, this is what I've been preparing for. It turned out that thet had let too many people go and they needed me for some customer product support functions over the next years. I stayed for a couple more years, but quit and moved on to a different job when it was convenient for me and before the operation finally died. I could have waited until it died but then the situation would not have been on my terms. You plan and try to put situations on your terms, not the whim of others.

The house we built sold for much more than we put into it, my labor was free. That return gave us even more mortgage free house (even though we didn't need or want a bigger more expensive house). And that house sold for very, very much more than we put into it. We moved to a location where we could get excellent land and house value for less money. Finally taking some pay for our free labor years ago. The next move will be to an apartment or senior living and we'll be receiving final payment for that labor of almost 40 years ago.

The travel, the fun, the security, the independence resulting from 20 young years of focus (and they were fun years too, despite the focus) has been an incalcuable blessing.

You make your time count if you wish, and you use your time as you see fit. Obstacles and disaster are always possible, but that's what you plan for if you choose. With a little luck and optimism all works out.

Good for you Dave. You made all the right moves, you got lucky, the stars aligned. If you are implying that I didn't and don't work my rear off, you, my friend, are wrong. If you are implying that all it takes is hard work, you are, again, wrong. Most of the time, luck is the last ingredient and early family support is the main ingredient. It seems I've had neither.

You seem to forget, as you look back on your working years, that during most of those years, the economy was good and your wage was 30% higher than people working at your same profession now. 30% is a huge difference, that's the investments in my retirement, that's my yearly vacation, that's my investment in my continued education. I'm so happy you were able to afford an education, I was not and am not in the financial position to do so.

Optimism? It never got me anywhere other than disappointment. Most people with my background fold and become wastes, I've fought tooth and nail to get what I have and optimism had nothing to do with my successes. You got lucky, good for you, don't suggest I could have done any better if I simply tried harder or smiled more. Most of the time, hard work doesn't give you the gifts you have, especially now with the inequality and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy. I know lots of guys, worse off than me, who work much harder than you, and, will never know security. Your naivety is annoying.

leikec
02-01-2015, 12:52 PM
Most people with my background fold and become wastes, I've fought tooth and nail to get what I have and optimism had nothing to do with my successes.

It seems to me that you've got a lot to be proud of. It seems to me that you have the ability and the tenacity to go anywhere you want with the rest of your life, as your story is a long way away from the last chapter.

Perhaps the way to look at it is that all the people who wrote you off 25 years ago have already been proved wrong. You can spend the next twenty five years living well, making money, and becoming even more of a success story. I don't see any reason why that isn't possible.

Jeff C

Tom Wilkinson
02-01-2015, 01:31 PM
Good for you Dave. You made all the right moves, you got lucky, the stars aligned. If you are implying that I didn't and don't work my rear off, you, my friend, are wrong. If you are implying that all it takes is hard work, you are, again, wrong. Most of the time, luck is the last ingredient and early family support is the main ingredient. It seems I've had neither.

You seem to forget, as you look back on your working years, that during most of those years, the economy was good and your wage was 30% higher than people working at your same profession now. 30% is a huge difference, that's the investments in my retirement, that's my yearly vacation, that's my investment in my continued education. I'm so happy you were able to afford an education, I was not and am not in the financial position to do so.

Optimism? It never got me anywhere other than disappointment. Most people with my background fold and become wastes, I've fought tooth and nail to get what I have and optimism had nothing to do with my successes. You got lucky, good for you, don't suggest I could have done any better if I simply tried harder or smiled more. Most of the time, hard work doesn't give you the gifts you have, especially now with the inequality and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy. I know lots of guys, worse off than me, who work much harder than you, and, will never know security. Your naivety is annoying.

Your negativity is annoying. It's amazing to me how people differ. I work in an area where we all have the same base rate, and have all been with the company 20 plus years. Some are living paycheck to paycheck and some have hundreds of thousands saved. The optomistic guys tend to have more, the pessimists are always behind and always stay that way. Some live within their means, others don't, regardless of how much or little they make.

I do know that those that go through life saying they can't succeed are nearly always proven right.

McMike
02-01-2015, 04:11 PM
Your negativity is annoying. It's amazing to me how people differ. I work in an area where we all have the same base rate, and have all been with the company 20 plus years. Some are living paycheck to paycheck and some have hundreds of thousands saved. The optomistic guys tend to have more, the pessimists are always behind and always stay that way. Some live within their means, others don't, regardless of how much or little they make.

I do know that those that go through life saying they can't succeed are nearly always proven right.

Bullsh17. You're missing the point. I am not behind. I save, I have a house, I am paid the top rate in my field, all be it a narrow field/market. A market like many others where pay has been decreasing over the years. There are many reasons it's been decreasing, none of which has not one thing to do with my "pessimism".

Your eagerness to to invalidate my gripe that I and the middle class at large, what's left of it anyway, has taken a huge hit over the past thirty years is indicative of the attitude that has kept people from feeling valid in the truth that we are being taken and therefore creates an climate where asking for what's rightfully due to us is not only frowned upon by the powers that be but also by our peers.

I'm self educated and working my ass off producing 5 times as much as my counterpart was 30 years ago while making 30% less. Dude, I've taught myself CAD, CAM, and I'm far more accomplished and experienced than many cabinet makers that have 20 years on me. It doesn't mean sh17 because the rest of the ignorant fools don't fight for what is theirs, they can't be bothered to do the math.

There is a fool I work with, to who I think you're comparing to me, he makes as much as I do, he lives in his sister's basement and can't afford new tires for his truck. He's always borrowing money from our boss and complaining about not having enough. I'm not that guy, so quite reaching for a reason to blame me for my complaint, it's such a flipping Republican move, like how they blame women for being raped because they had a tight shirt on.

McMike
02-01-2015, 04:39 PM
It seems to me that you've got a lot to be proud of. It seems to me that you have the ability and the tenacity to go anywhere you want with the rest of your life, as your story is a long way away from the last chapter.

Perhaps the way to look at it is that all the people who wrote you off 25 years ago have already been proved wrong. You can spend the next twenty five years living well, making money, and becoming even more of a success story. I don't see any reason why that isn't possible.

Jeff C

I appreciate your point of view. I guess my point is that I've taken it as far as I see that it can go. I feel artificially held back from going further, I see douche-baggery rewarded all over the place and I think I'm raging against becoming one myself because it feels like I'm at that point where I either continue to be taken from or I start doing the taking. I'm not a douche bag by nature, becoming one defies the identity I've tried to maintain for all these years, I've sacrificed a lot of opportunities in order to remain a decent human being. To put it another way, I only see lairs and thieves getting ahead, do I have to become one if I am to make any more of myself? I see that I'm worth well more than what I am paid, as are many I know, I would be fine if my wage reflected my actual value, I would be able to be secure and have a little fun as well. Maybe Tom and Dave are right and I should finally just roll over and give up . . .

. . . nahhhh, eff that!!! If I had done that 20 years ago I'd be the guy they think I am. ;) :cool:

Ted Hoppe
02-01-2015, 11:58 PM
I appreciate your point of view. I guess my point is that I've taken it as far as I see that it can go. I feel artificially held back from going further, I see douche-baggery rewarded all over the place and I think I'm raging against becoming one myself because it feels like I'm at that point where I either continue to be taken from or I start doing the taking. I'm not a douche bag by nature, becoming one defies the identity I've tried to maintain for all these years, I've sacrificed a lot of opportunities in order to remain a decent human being. To put it another way, I only see lairs and thieves getting ahead, do I have to become one if I am to make any more of myself? I see that I'm worth well more than what I am paid, as are many I know, I would be fine if my wage reflected my actual value, I would be able to be secure and have a little fun as well. Maybe Tom and Dave are right and I should finally just roll over and give up . . .

. . . nahhhh, eff that!!! If I had done that 20 years ago I'd be the guy they think I am. ;) :cool:

I don't know you and cannot speculated on your circumstances. You have not express your willingness to take calculated risks or a second line of employment concurrently which could lead to a new positive direction. at 40, there is much to learn, do and gain. Life is not for the timid. We are destined to live our vision. How we look at ourselves and what we expect how other treat us fits into the box. The truth of who we are and what we ask from others is our only value. Be the man your girlfriend/wife would want you to be so you can make her the best mate and partner she could and will believe she is. The future is written by our own pen and mental camera which we capture of own images that we hold to so dearly. If you do take control and respect the better man you are, your better life and retirement you seek will be there.

slug
02-02-2015, 02:08 AM
At forty you are a young guy with a solid 25 years of work and pension saving ahead. You should be able to find a way to get the job done.

purri
02-02-2015, 03:59 AM
^ You dissemble. Most are on the heap at 55, many at 50.

slug
02-02-2015, 04:48 AM
^ You dissemble. Most are on the heap at 55, many at 50.

yah...at 55 your options are very limited.

I laugh at the people who decide to chill out in thier forties, pack in the job, sail around the world or something, spend all thier cash , have a great time , then think they can jump back into life .

genglandoh
02-02-2015, 07:41 AM
My company changed their 401k program a few years ago.
New employees will automatically have 4% of their income put into the 401k program.
Then every year the amount will increase 1% until you hit 10%.
The company also puts in an additional 3% so you are really at 13%.

Gerarddm
02-02-2015, 10:58 AM
The key to retirement is buy low, sell high. ;-)

Seriously, it is bad news that so many workers are unprepared.

It also takes some luck. Thanks to two large cushions from house sales and a solid 8 year period in my 50s when I made bank, and a current small house with a mortgage payment that is lower than rent, I will be able to get by for the next 15-20 years by living a life of creative simplicity. Also helps to have no debt other than the mortgage. Not a lush retirement by any means, but fairly secure.

slug
02-02-2015, 11:03 AM
The key to retirement is buy low, sell high. ;-)

Seriously, it is bad news that so many workers are unprepared.

and to live long enough to collect ......


http://s21.postimg.org/60jk7pq4n/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
imagen jpg (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

genglandoh
02-03-2015, 02:34 PM
geng, im not sharpshooting. im just saying I know people who were paying student loans well into their 40's. the kids peak years are ahead of them. also, if id followed Todd's plan my grandson wouldn't be sitting in my lap watching flyfishing videos. he says " that's ones a beauty" like he heard me say. Dave, McMike like me may have a hard time visualizing himself as a banker.

I am sorry I think I missed one of your points.
I think you are saying it is OK to have the kids pay off their loans.

We are trying to pay 100% of the kids college and give them a head start on a good life.
Yes if I stopped paying these bill I would have a much better retirement but I love my kids and I am happy to do it.

Ted Hoppe
02-03-2015, 03:39 PM
I am sorry I think I missed one of your points.
I think you are saying it is OK to have the kids pay off their loans.

We are trying to pay 100% of the kids college and give them a head start on a good life.
Yes if I stopped paying these bill I would have a much better retirement but I love my kids and I am happy to do it.

It must be quite satisfying to be able to pay for their schooling. Was any consideration there for a 2 year community college an option for your kids.
We are beginning to tackle those worries and have save some for our boys education. Frankly - spending 50k for him to find himself those first 2 years is also on our minds.

Gerarddm
02-03-2015, 03:49 PM
^ Those 509 pre-paid tuition plans are THE way to go. I saved my daughter a lot in student loans thereby. The sooner you get on it, the larger the savings down the road.

DMillet
02-03-2015, 04:15 PM
It must be quite satisfying to be able to pay for their schooling. Was any consideration there for a 2 year community college an option for your kids.
We are beginning to tackle those worries and have save some for our boys education. Frankly - spending 50k for him to find himself those first 2 years is also on our minds.

I'm currently paying the loans off for my oldest daughter's "find yourself" 2 1/2 year project. Yep, just about 50k. She's doing okay, but she won't be contributing to those payments anytime soon on her salary.

I took a different tack with daughter 2 and am paying those 18k/year bills out of pocket. She graduates in June with maybe 15k of debt. I'll pay that off in another year.

I look at like this, my dad paid my loans so I will cover my kid's loans even if they are almost 20 times as much. It's tough enough getting started in life even with no debt, especially in the environment we've recently created.

Ted Hoppe
02-03-2015, 04:48 PM
Sorry about the drift....
i paid for my own schooling. My father was an academy man who had no interest in helping his children - sink or swim was the SOB's model. It took me till i was almost thirty to finish working and going to school(s). Yeah - it did slow me down and hurt my career choices. I became a real scrapper who doesn't mind making a buck with my head or back. I am fearful of my own son who shows not mechanical interests and cares to study only classes and subjects he finds interesting or rewarding. at nearly 15, he says he wants to live in Washington, wear suits and be a lobbyist. I know he will be good at that. The 529 does make sense as long as they use it. I know we will hold debt like you when he is done... but he will also hold some debt as it is our joint partnership not our total burden.

Now over 50, i have to see where i would like to be. I think the number of at least 1m to feel comfortable is almost right but will be a task while keeping in with the good life we have. For sure my wife and i will not be able to hold this house in Northern California and pay state and property taxes. we often talk about Savannah or Charleston. It will be more likely east San Diego or a faux Sedona life in Arizona. We will make the adjustments once the boy is in school and plan on a semiretirement with working up and into the checkin at the senior living facility. My plan when i hit 80 is I will make toy french wooden pond sailers and sell them on ebay. Wish me luck!

genglandoh
02-03-2015, 05:15 PM
It must be quite satisfying to be able to pay for their schooling. Was any consideration there for a 2 year community college an option for your kids.
We are beginning to tackle those worries and have save some for our boys education. Frankly - spending 50k for him to find himself those first 2 years is also on our minds.

Over the years I have had many talks with my kids and got the following messages across.
1. Focus on doing something you are good at not something you like doing.
2. They need to pick a real major one with a paying job at the end.
3. We promised them that we would try to pay for 1/2 of their college.
4. If you get into trouble in school it is not the end of the world we can always solve your problems.
Please do not put so much pressure on your kids to success that they commit suicide when they get their first C.

My kids are not stupid they see that I do not have a lot of money.
1. I drive old suburbans. (my current suburban cost me $1,500)
2. I buy old boats. (my current boat cost me $500)
3. We only go out to dinner at most 6 time per year.
4. We do not go on big family vacations.

So they all have taken their education seriously.

If one of my sons did not know what they wanted to accomplish in college I would have them
1. Get a 40 hour a week job.
2. Go to community college at night so they keep their studying skills active.
3. If they lived at home I would charge them market level rent.
I would keep this money in a separate account and give it back to them after they got their

Good luck with your son.

Ted Hoppe
02-03-2015, 07:13 PM
Over the years I have had many talks with my kids and got the following messages across.
1. Focus on doing something you are good at not something you like doing.
2. They need to pick a real major one with a paying job at the end.
3. We promised them that we would try to pay for 1/2 of their college.
4. If you get into trouble in school it is not the end of the world we can always solve your problems.
Please do not put so much pressure on your kids to success that they commit suicide when they get their first C.

My kids are not stupid they see that I do not have a lot of money.
1. I drive old suburbans. (my current suburban cost me $1,500)
2. I buy old boats. (my current boat cost me $500)
3. We only go out to dinner at most 6 time per year.
4. We do not go on big family vacations.

So they all have taken their education seriously.

If one of my sons did not know what they wanted to accomplish in college I would have them
1. Get a 40 hour a week job.
2. Go to community college at night so they keep their studying skills active.
3. If they lived at home I would charge them market level rent.
I would keep this money in a separate account and give it back to them after they got their

Good luck with your son.

Thanks for sharing that. Those are some good pointers. Hope i can do the same.