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Norman Bernstein
01-22-2015, 09:58 AM
Question: is it a virtue, for a politician, to change his views radically? It would seem that sometimes, it is: notable examples might be Robert Byrd, and George Wallace, both of whom eventually renounced their segregationist views as they grew older.

Or, is it simply an indication that the politician doesn't actually have any core values?

You decide :)


“Outlining his possible rationale for a third presidential bid, Mitt Romney said Wednesday night that political leaders in both parties are failing to address the nation’s most pressing problems — climate change, poverty and education reform, among them — as he acknowledged lessons learned from his failed 2012 presidential campaign,” the AP (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/romney-says-leaders-both-parties-failing-nation) reports.

“While hitting familiar Republican points criticizing the size of the federal debt, Romney at times sounded like a Democrat, calling for President Obama and other leaders in Washington to act on common liberal priorities such as climate change, poverty and education… His evolving platform comes as he works to reshape his image after consecutive presidential defeats.”

John Smith
01-22-2015, 10:02 AM
There is a difference between gaining facts/experience and having an actual change of position vs simply tailoring your position to the audience of the moment.

I haven't heard back my my old GOP friend, but I asked him how he could vote for anyone who does not believe in Evolution. At one debate, ALL the Republican candidates (10 of them) denied Evolution. That, to me, is reason enough not to support any of them. They either don't believe in accepted science, or they are pandering to the extreme.

I also asked my friend, last election, which Romney are the people who vote for him voting for.

S.V. Airlie
01-22-2015, 10:15 AM
I thought the 3.0 was his GPA!

hanleyclifford
01-22-2015, 10:18 AM
There is a difference between gaining facts/experience and having an actual change of position vs simply tailoring your position to the audience of the moment.

I haven't heard back my my old GOP friend, but I asked him how he could vote for anyone who does not believe in Evolution. At one debate, ALL the Republican candidates (10 of them) denied Evolution. That, to me, is reason enough not to support any of them. They either don't believe in accepted science, or they are pandering to the extreme.

I also asked my friend, last election, which Romney are the people who vote for him voting for. Evolution is itself a form of (false) religion - requiring belief therein for political support could be construed as religious bigotry.

Norman Bernstein
01-22-2015, 10:20 AM
I find the whole phenomenon interesting. It does appear that Romney's prominence in this very early stage of the election cycle is fundamentally an issue of name recognition... although Ben Carson seems to be high on the list, and he's not exactly a household name.

The only question is whether the two 'sides' in the GOP are going to be able to resolve the differences: the folks who think that moderation is the path to gaining the White House in 2016, and those who think that 'RINO's' are the reason they lost in 2012.

Romney is clearly betting on the former... but I don't see how he escapes his '47%' reputation.

Jim Mahan
01-22-2015, 10:28 AM
Default Romney 3.0 Question: is it a virtue, for a politician, to change his views radically? It would seem that sometimes, it is: notable examples might be Robert Byrd, and George Wallace, both of whom eventually renounced their segregationist views as they grew older. Or, is it simply an indication that the politician doesn't actually have any core values?

My feeling is that Mr. R is expecting that if he were elected, his presidency would be about his image and playing the cards he'd be dealt. So it wouldn't really be a function of his having any values, just moves.

hanleyclifford
01-22-2015, 10:30 AM
I find the whole phenomenon interesting. It does appear that Romney's prominence in this very early stage of the election cycle is fundamentally an issue of name recognition... although Ben Carson seems to be high on the list, and he's not exactly a household name.

The only question is whether the two 'sides' in the GOP are going to be able to resolve the differences: the folks who think that moderation is the path to gaining the White House in 2016, and those who think that 'RINO's' are the reason they lost in 2012.

Romney is clearly betting on the former... but I don't see how he escapes his '47%' reputation. Nor do I. Better choices will be available.

Norman Bernstein
01-22-2015, 10:31 AM
Nor do I. Better choices will be available.

Who?

Jim Mahan
01-22-2015, 10:31 AM
And if his moves were typical of his business practices, he'd sell off the assets that aren't profitable, fire everybody but the board of directors who'd receive the typical golden parachute, and then sell the country to the highest bidder. And get his buddies on Wall St. to crash the economy, burst a second housing bubble so he could get another good deal on some 30,000 sq ft. neo-mansion.

Jim Mahan
01-22-2015, 10:33 AM
Better choices will be available.

There really aren't any. Except those on the liberal side. This is just more whistling past the graveyard.

hanleyclifford
01-22-2015, 10:41 AM
There really aren't any. Except those on the liberal side. This is just more whistling past the graveyard. Notice the word will rather than are. Still a lot of football to play.

S.V. Airlie
01-22-2015, 10:42 AM
Notice the word will rather than are. Still a lot of football to play.I think "The team" is already in the locker room Hanley.

Norman Bernstein
01-22-2015, 11:04 AM
Notice the word will rather than are. Still a lot of football to play.

Well, this 'person' you're referring to who will emerge must be pretty deep in a hole somewhere, because just about every Republican governor and senator of any stripe has already bubbled to the surface, at least in terms of making a few feinting moves towards a potential run.

However, it sort of doesn't really matter WHO the person is, because until the GOP decides between a mainstream/moderate candidate, or a fire-breathing hard right candidate, it probably doesn't matter.

S.V. Airlie
01-22-2015, 11:13 AM
There is a ripple. G. Pataki!

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-22-2015, 11:35 AM
Romney is like everyone else. He has the "I wants". But his "I wants" are far beyond what the rest of us pine for. Romney has gotten the best of everything without too many struggles. He had old line Mormon ancestors, agazzilionaire father, made it thru' college by beating the the militsry draft, got married upon graduation and went off to Harvard grad school. At Harvard his wife was producing offspring which didn't seem to interfere with coming up with the tuition to two different grad schools. Financially, he has become as much a gazillionaire as his late father. So what's left to pine for? The Oval Office, naturally. Thank God he grew up within such a limited social context he hasn't developed much of a common touch. If the Repubs have no one better to run than a retread with a frat-boy personality all the better for America.

Paul Pless
01-22-2015, 12:09 PM
Evolution is itself a form of (false) religion - requiring belief therein for political support could be construed as religious bigotry.oh dear god

wardd
01-22-2015, 12:15 PM
Evolution is itself a form of (false) religion - requiring belief therein for political support could be construed as religious bigotry.

a belief in observable fact is not religion

switters
01-22-2015, 12:16 PM
Question: is it a virtue, for a politician, to change his views radically? It would seem that sometimes, it is: notable examples might be Robert Byrd, and George Wallace, both of whom eventually renounced their segregationist views as they grew older.

Or, is it simply an indication that the politician doesn't actually have any core values?

You decide :)

Another good example would be Obama on gay marriage. Or is that the values thing? Can we be happy that politicians can evolve and not hold every shift in contempt? I'm not much of a Romney supporter but if he polls high enough maybe the rest of the "non-scientists" on the rred team will start to shift their position also. FWIW Romney came out strong on global warming and then softened his position in 2012. a loss of values at the time is a possibility, maybe now he is ready to run for what he believes.

Paul Pless
01-22-2015, 12:20 PM
Another good example would be Obama on gay marriage. Or is that the values thing? Can we be happy that politicians can evolve and not hold every shift in contempt? I'm not much of a Romney supporter but if he polls high enough maybe the rest of the "non-scientists" on the rred team will start to shift their position also. FWIW Romney came out strong on global warming and then softened his position in 2012. a loss of values at the time is a possibility, maybe now he is ready to run for what he believes.damn me, but if you get all squishy on me i might have to start one of those 'a private message on an open forum to people who I want to read this' threads. . .

Gerarddm
01-22-2015, 12:20 PM
It's Mr. Etch-A-Sketch all over again.

Paul Pless
01-22-2015, 12:21 PM
It's Mr. Etch-A-Sketch all over again.d'oh

Paul Pless
01-22-2015, 12:21 PM
Is "segregationist" the latest hip term to describe democrat racists?lol

David G
01-22-2015, 12:38 PM
Another good example would be Obama on gay marriage. Or is that the values thing? Can we be happy that politicians can evolve and not hold every shift in contempt? I'm not much of a Romney supporter but if he polls high enough maybe the rest of the "non-scientists" on the rred team will start to shift their position also. FWIW Romney came out strong on global warming and then softened his position in 2012. a loss of values at the time is a possibility, maybe now he is ready to run for what he believes.

I have not settled upon a firm belief, as yet. On one hand, some of his history suggests that he is more moderate than he presented last go-round. More of a get-r-done sort, willing to compromise and move the ball forward. Less of a shrink govt. till we can flush it down the toilet idealogue.

But, really... it's just hints. Because, at the same time, the background he comes from, and the job he did at Bain, suggest that he has the mindset, completely and totally, of an oligarch. What's good for business is good for America! The lack of recognition that we have currently swung WAY too far toward the laissez-faire end of the spectrum... and that it's severely damaging both the economy, and - even more urgently - our democracy. The 47% comment made when he thought he was safe to speak his mind (or was he just pandering to that audience????). The apparent willingness to say anything needed to close the deal on the presidency that eluded his dad, and so far has eluded him.

I don't think he has a snowball's chance of being elected. But if he was, I'd grit my teeth, cross my fingers, and HOPE that the Romney we saw as the Mass. governor was as bad as it will get. Most of the other R candidates... I'd be thinking about emigrating to Canada or somesuch.

Nicholas Scheuer
01-22-2015, 12:53 PM
Romney does not have "core values". He will change his stripes, colors, whatever, to match the needs of his current campaign.

Norman Bernstein
01-22-2015, 12:57 PM
Another good example would be Obama on gay marriage. Or is that the values thing? Can we be happy that politicians can evolve and not hold every shift in contempt? I'm not much of a Romney supporter but if he polls high enough maybe the rest of the "non-scientists" on the rred team will start to shift their position also. FWIW Romney came out strong on global warming and then softened his position in 2012. a loss of values at the time is a possibility, maybe now he is ready to run for what he believes.

I don't disagree, at all, that politicians can 'evolve' their views.....

...but surely, Romney is hardly an example of an 'evolution of one's views'. You have to go back in history to the moderate Republican Romney who was governor of Massachusetts (and who I voted for), to the 2012 Romney, blatantly contemptuous of 47% of the population, to the new Romney 3.0, suddenly an advocate of remarkably moderate views.

These are the hallmarks of a man whose desire to be President vastly outstrips any possible set of core values he may hold.

Paul Pless
01-22-2015, 12:59 PM
These are the hallmarks of a man whose desire to be President vastly outstrips any possible set of core values he may hold.amazing how much he has in common with the clintons. . .

Norman Bernstein
01-22-2015, 01:00 PM
amazing how much he has in common with the clintons. . .

There isn't a potential Presidential candidate, of any Party, at any time in history, who doesn't have, or hadn't had, an ego the size of Montana.

That doesn't mean we cannot, as voters, decide for ourselves which ones are more ego than substance.

switters
01-22-2015, 01:03 PM
well if it is about consistency and holding true to core values,

http://i3.cpcache.com/product/723067605/galt_taggart_2016_decal.jpg?height=225&width=225

:d

Norman Bernstein
01-22-2015, 01:05 PM
well if it is about consistency and holding true to core values,

http://i3.cpcache.com/product/723067605/galt_taggart_2016_decal.jpg?height=225&width=225

:d

Hehehehe.... not sure you could depend on Libertarians to 'hold true to core values'.... it seems I've heard Rand Paul state a few things that would have turned Ayn Rand livid :)

john l
01-22-2015, 01:19 PM
Seems like Bush and Romney need each other to condition the RWWN of the party to get real. As you may recall, At the beginning of the last campaign Romney was quite moderate only ramping up his rhetoric to satisfy the far right. Bush had also been accused of being too sympathetic to immigrants. Boys, the right is moving to the middle! It's a big job and it will take both those guys to knock some sense into their party. Romney even said he believes in climate change! Finally he is growing a pair.

John Smith
01-22-2015, 01:23 PM
Evolution is itself a form of (false) religion - requiring belief therein for political support could be construed as religious bigotry.

Seems to me there is a good body of evidence supporting Evolution, just as there's a large body of evidence supporting Global Warming. That makes both different from religion.

John Smith
01-22-2015, 01:24 PM
My feeling is that Mr. R is expecting that if he were elected, his presidency would be about his image and playing the cards he'd be dealt. So it wouldn't really be a function of his having any values, just moves.

He'd not have to deal any?

John Smith
01-22-2015, 01:27 PM
Who?

Yes, who?

I would love to see someone interview Romney, et al, and ask why he doesn't appreciate we've already reached the unemployment goal he'd promised by 2016, the low price of gas, the soaring stock market, etc.

John Smith
01-22-2015, 01:28 PM
Notice the word will rather than are. Still a lot of football to play.

Name some names, please.

John Smith
01-22-2015, 01:30 PM
Another good example would be Obama on gay marriage. Or is that the values thing? Can we be happy that politicians can evolve and not hold every shift in contempt? I'm not much of a Romney supporter but if he polls high enough maybe the rest of the "non-scientists" on the rred team will start to shift their position also. FWIW Romney came out strong on global warming and then softened his position in 2012. a loss of values at the time is a possibility, maybe now he is ready to run for what he believes.

How would you know whether or not he believes what he says?

John Smith
01-22-2015, 01:32 PM
Romney does not have "core values". He will change his stripes, colors, whatever, to match the needs of his current campaign.

This is the man who tried to get to the left of Ted Kennedy in his run for the senate and to the right of Rick Santorum in his run for president. Like McCain, he's held so many different positions on so many things, even he no longer knows where he stands on what.

John Smith
01-22-2015, 01:33 PM
amazing how much he has in common with the clintons. . .

Specifics, please.

I ask because I recall my son-in-law's parents one day extolling how Bill Clinton was the most dishonest president we've ever had. I asked them, aside from Monica, what he had lied about. They could not think of a single thing.

Donn
01-22-2015, 01:34 PM
Sheesh!

John Smith
01-22-2015, 01:36 PM
Hehehehe.... not sure you could depend on Libertarians to 'hold true to core values'.... it seems I've heard Rand Paul state a few things that would have turned Ayn Rand livid :)

What 'core values" are we talking about? I'd like to see politicians driven by the core values and principles we like to think this nation stands for and by.

John Smith
01-22-2015, 01:37 PM
Seems like Bush and Romney need each other to condition the RWWN of the party to get real. As you may recall, At the beginning of the last campaign Romney was quite moderate only ramping up his rhetoric to satisfy the far right. Bush had also been accused of being too sympathetic to immigrants. Boys, the right is moving to the middle! It's a big job and it will take both those guys to knock some sense into their party. Romney even said he believes in climate change! Finally he is growing a pair.

And you believe him why?

john l
01-22-2015, 07:59 PM
Because he isn't really running so he can say what he wants. In the process he can help move the ball. I don't believe there is any other real explanation. Sure he has demonstrated that he is a chameleon, doing what he thought he had todo to get the nomination. But in so doing, he lost the election - (thank god). The republican party is composed of many idealogical factions, but it's future is the most moderate one. Believe him or not, Romney skates to where to where the puck is going!

Donn
01-22-2015, 08:02 PM
............

David G
01-27-2015, 05:28 PM
To be fair... he deserves SOME credit --


https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10409308_10152718253151275_1527401117279050849_n.p ng?oh=1f9cf346d82e4884e7a3419b86ea16b8&oe=55246223&__gda__=1432612814_6d31ac652f8a749421821806f4450b9 7

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2015, 05:50 PM
Mitt's self portrait
http://www.primebeautyblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/chameleon.jpg