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PeterSibley
01-15-2015, 02:33 AM
The right have been calling for the world's Muslim population to condemn terrorism ...which of course they have . But it made me wonder i=f the US right has equally condemned the right wing terrorism that abounds in the US. Perhaps they have but I can't remember anyone her doing it ... but perhaps it just slipped by.

So here's another opportunity. While the Islamic population condemns the Charlie Hebro killers the right in America can condemn and even discuss the motivations for domestic US terrorism.

Enjoy. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/11/home-grown-right-wing-terrorism-the-hate-the-gop-refuses-to-see.html

Terror From the Right: Plots, Conspiracies and Racist Rampages Since Oklahoma City







At 9:02 a.m. on April 19, 1995, a 7,000-pound truck bomb, constructed of ammonium nitrate fertilizer and nitromethane racing fuel and packed into 13 plastic barrels, ripped through the heart of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. The explosion wrecked much of downtown Oklahoma City and killed 168 people, including 19 children in a day-care center. Another 500 were injured. Although many Americans initially suspected an attack by Middle Eastern radicals, it quickly became clear that the mass murder had actually been carried out by domestic, right-wing terrorists.
The slaughter engineered by Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, men steeped in the conspiracy theories and white-hot fury of the American radical right, marked the opening shot in a new kind of domestic political extremism — a revolutionary ideology whose practitioners do not hesitate to carry out attacks directed at entirely innocent victims, people selected essentially at random to make a political point. After Oklahoma, it was no longer sufficient for many American right-wing terrorists to strike at a target of political significance — instead, they reached for higher and higher body counts, reasoning that they had to eclipse McVeigh's attack to win attention.
What follows is a detailed listing of major terrorist plots and racist rampages that have emerged from the American radical right in the years since Oklahoma City. These have included plans to bomb government buildings, banks, refineries, utilities, clinics, synagogues, mosques, memorials and bridges; to assassinate police officers, judges, politicians, civil rights figures and others; to rob banks, armored cars and other criminals; and to amass illegal machine guns, missiles, explosives and biological and chemical weapons. [Each of these plots aimed to make changes in America through the use of political violence.] Most contemplated the deaths of large numbers of people — in one case, as many as 30,000, or 10 times the number murdered on Sept. 11, 2001.
Here are the stories of plots, conspiracies and racist rampages since 1995 — plots and violence waged against a democratic America.
July 28, 1995
Antigovernment extremist Charles Ray Polk is arrested after trying to purchase a machine gun from an undercover police officer, and is later indicted by federal grand jury for plotting to blow up the Internal Revenue Service building in Austin, Texas. At the time of his arrest, Polk is trying to purchase plastic explosives to add to the already huge arsenal he's amassed. Polk is sentenced to almost 21 years in federal prison.
October 9, 1995
Saboteurs derail an Amtrak passenger train near Hyder, Ariz., killing one person and injuring about 70 others. Several antigovernment messages, signed by the "Sons of Gestapo," are left behind. The perpetrators remain at large.
November 9, 1995
Oklahoma Constitutional Militia leader Willie Ray Lampley, his wife Cecilia and another man, John Dare Baird, are arrested as they prepare explosives to bomb numerous targets, including the Southern Poverty Law Center, gay bars and abortion clinics. The three, along with another suspect arrested later, are sentenced to terms of up to 11 years in 1996. Cecilia Lampley is released in 2000, while Baird and Willie Lampley — who wrote letters from prison urging others to violence — are freed in 2004 and 2006, respectively.
December 18, 1995
An Internal Revenue Service (IRS) employee discovers a plastic drum packed with ammonium nitrate and fuel oil in a parking lot behind the IRS building in Reno, Nev. The device failed to explode a day earlier when a three-foot fuse went out prematurely. Ten days later, tax protester Joseph Martin Bailie is arrested. Bailie is eventually sentenced to 36 years in federal prison, with a release date of 2027. An accomplice, Ellis Edward Hurst, is released in 2004.
January 18, 1996
Peter Kevin Langan, the pseudonymous "Commander Pedro" who leads the underground Aryan Republican Army, is arrested after a shootout with the FBI in Ohio. Along with six other suspects arrested around the same time, Langan is charged in connection with a string of 22 bank robberies in seven Midwestern states between 1994 and 1996. After pleading guilty and agreeing to testify, co-conspirator Richard Guthrie commits suicide in his cell. Two others, Kevin McCarthy and Scott Stedeford, enter plea bargains and do testify against their co-conspirators. Eventually, Mark Thomas, a leading neo-Nazi in Pennsylvania, pleads guilty for his role in helping organize the robberies and agrees to testify against Langan and other gang members. Shawn Kenny, another suspect, becomes a federal informant. Langan is sentenced to a life term in one case, plus 55 years in another. McCarthy is released from prison in 2007, while Stedeford's release date is set in 2022. Thomas receives eight years and is released in early 2004.
April 11, 1996
Antigovernment activist and self-described "survivalist" Ray Hamblin is charged with illegal possession of explosives after authorities find 460 pounds of the high explosive Tovex, 746 pounds of ANFO blasting agent and 15 homemade hand grenades on his property in Hood River, Ore. Hamblin is sentenced to almost four years in federal prison, and is released in March 2000.
April 12, 1996
Apparently inspired by his reading of a neo-Nazi tract, Larry Wayne Shoemake kills one black man and wounds seven other people, including a reporter, during a racist shooting spree in a black neighborhood in Jackson, Miss. As police close in on the abandoned restaurant he is shooting from, Shoemake, who is white, sets the restaurant on fire and kills himself. A search of his home finds references to "Separation or Annihilation," an essay on race relations by neo-Nazi National Alliance leader William Pierce, along with an arsenal of weapons that includes 17 long guns, 20,000 rounds of ammunition, and countless military manuals.
April 26, 1996
Two leaders of the Militia-at-Large of the Republic of Georgia, Robert Edward Starr III and William James McCranie Jr., are charged with manufacturing shrapnel-packed pipe bombs for distribution to militia members. Later in the year, they are sentenced to terms of up to eight years. Another Militia-at-Large member, Troy Allen Kayser (alias Troy Spain), is arrested two weeks later and accused of training a team to assassinate politicians. Starr is released from prison in 2003, while McCranie gets out in 2001. Kayser, convicted of conspiracy, is released in early 2002.
July 1, 1996
Twelve members of an Arizona militia group called the Viper Team are arrested on federal conspiracy, weapons and explosive charges after allegedly surveilling and videotaping government buildings as potential targets. All 12 plead guilty or are convicted of various charges, drawing sentences of up to nine years in prison. The plot participants are all released in subsequent years. Gary Curds Baer, who drew the heaviest sentence after being found with 400 pounds of ammonium nitrate, a bomb component, is freed in May 2004.

Gerarddm
01-15-2015, 02:36 AM
O I have heartily condemned every one of our home grown dingleberries. Not hard to do. Unless of course you are a fellow traveler with them.

PeterSibley
01-15-2015, 02:36 AM
Miss 15 years ...it's on the link.


December 21, 2012
FBI agents arrest Richard Schmidt, the owner of a sporting goods store in Bowling Green, Ohio, for trafficking in counterfeit goods and discover a cache of 18 weapons in his home and store, including AR-15 assault rifles, 9 mm and Sig Sauer pistols and shotguns, and more than 40,000 rounds of ammunition. Schmidt is unable to own the weapons legally because he is a felon who served 13 years for murdering a Latino man and wounding two others in a 1989 traffic dispute. Officials also find evidence of Schmidt’s neo-Nazi views, including video and Nazi paraphernalia, and the Anti-Defamation League identifies him as a longtime member of the neo-Nazi National Alliance. Authorities also discover a notebook they say Schmidt was using to track Detroit-area Jewish and African-American leaders, apparently as a prelude to some kind of attack. Schmidt is indicted in Toledo in January 2013 on three federal counts of possessing illegal firearms, body armor and ammunition, and one count of trafficking in counterfeit goods. He pleads guilty in July 2013 to violating federal firearms laws and is sentenced in December to nearly six years in prison.

June 18, 2013
Glendon Scott Crawford, 49, and Eric J. Feight, 54, are arrested in upstate New York after a yearlong investigation and charged with conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists for use of a weapon of mass destruction. Crawford is a member of the United Northern and Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and an industrial mechanic with General Electric; Feight is an outside contractor for GE with engineering skills. Officials say the two men, who call themselves “The Guild,” are well along the way toward building a truck-borne radiation weapon could be turned on remotely and that they hoped to use in the mass murder of Muslims and others. Crawford, who was said to be angry at President Obama, allegedly referred to the device as “Hiroshima on a light switch.” The men are arrested after unsuccessfully seeking funding from Jewish groups and the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. In January 2014, Crawford is indicted for conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction and related charges, while his alleged accomplice is reportedly in talks about a plea agreement that would involve testifying against Crawford.

Aug. 18, 2013
David Allen Brutsche, 42, and a woman described as Brutsche’s roommate, Devon Campbell Newman, 67, are arrested in Las Vegas after a months-long investigation into an alleged plot to kidnap and execute police officers. Both Brutsche, a convicted felon and registered sex offender, and Newman consider themselves “sovereign citizens” and have conducted recruiting seminars on sovereign ideology, officials say. Authorities say they intended to kidnap a police officer at random, detain the officer in a crude jail in a vacant house, “try” the officer in a “common-law” court, then execute the officer. The two are charged with felony conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, and attempted kidnapping. Newman pleads guilty in December 2013 to conspiracy to commit false imprisonment, a misdemeanor, and is sentenced to a year of probation and ordered to have no contact with Brutsche. Brutsche, who renounces sovereign citizen ideology during court proceedings, pleads guilty in February 2014 to conspiracy to kidnap police officers and receives five years’ probation. In a separate case involving failure to register as a sex offender, he receives 188 days in jail in addition to time served.

March 27, 2014
Robert James Talbot Jr., 38, is arrested in Katy, Texas, by FBI agents who say he was about to rob an armored car. He is alleged to have been plotting to use C-4 explosives and weapons to rob banks and armored cars, blow up government buildings and mosques, and kill police officers. Prosecutors say he is behind a Facebook page called “American Insurgent Movement,” on which he posted antigovernment screeds, called for violence against public officials, and ranted about Muslims and LGBT people. He used the page to attempt to persuade others to join his cause. Talbot faces federal charges of attempted interference with commerce by robbery, solicitation to commit a crime of violence and possession of an explosive material. The FBI opened an investigation into his activities in August 2013 after learning of his alleged desire to recruit others into terrorist activities. Talbot pleads guilty to all charges on Oct. 3, 2014. He faces up to 30 years in prison and $375,000 in fines.

April 13, 2014
Frazier Glenn Miller (aka Frazier Glenn Cross), 73, a longtime racist and anti-Semite, is arrested after a gunman opens fire at a Jewish community center and a Jewish retirement community in Overland Park, Kansas, a suburb of Kansas City. Three people are killed, including a 14-year-old Eagle Scout and his grandfather. Miller, a retired Army veteran and Green Beret, is the founder and former leader of the Carolina Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and the White Patriot Party, which he ran as paramilitary organizations in the 1980s. He was successfully sued by the SPLC for operating an illegal paramilitary organization and for using intimidation tactics against African Americans. Miller went underground in 1987 after he violated the court settlement and was convicted on criminal contempt charges. He was caught and served three years in federal prison on weapons charges in connection with plans to commit robberies and assassinate SPLC founder Morris Dees. As part of a plea deal, he testified against other Klan members in a 1988 sedition trial.

June 8, 2014
Jerad Miller, 31, and his wife, Amanda, 22, enter a pizza restaurant in Las Vegas, Nev., where two police officers are eating lunch. Jerad Miller fatally shoots officer Igor Soldo, 31. As his partner, Alyn Beck, 41, tries to react, Miller shoots him in the throat, then both Millers shoot Beck several times. The pair leave a swastika and a Gadsden flag on Beck’s body. The yellow flag, a symbol used by the antigovernment “Patriot” movement, features a coiled snake with the words “Don’t Tread On Me.” On Soldo’s body, they place a note: “This is the start of the revolution.” The couple leave the restaurant and walk to a nearby Walmart store, where Amanda Miller shoots and kills Joseph Wilcox, 31, before the Millers barricade themselves in the back of the store. Jerad is shot to death by police, and Amanda kills herself. The couple held strong antigovernment views. Jerad Miller’s Facebook page contained calls to impeach President Obama as well as statements about conspiracy theories popular among Patriot groups. Weeks earlier, the pair had been present at the Cliven Bundy ranch in Nevada, where militias had gathered in an armed standoff with the federal Bureau of Land Management over a grazing fee dispute. The Millers perceived law enforcement as “oppressors” and reportedly told neighbors they planned to kill police officers.

November 28, 2014
Armed with a .22-caliber rifle and an assault rifle, Larry Steve McQuilliams, 49, fires more than 100 rounds at a police station, a Mexican consulate, a federal courthouse and a bank in downtown Austin, Texas, during the pre-dawn hours. He also tries to set the consulate on fire before he is shot dead by police. No one is hurt in the attack, which causes extensive damage to the buildings. In a rental van, police find multiple propane cans fashioned into homemade bombs and a map of 34 targets, including two churches. They also find Vigilantes of Christendom. The 1990 book inspired a white supremacist doctrine known as Phineas Priesthood, which finds divine justification for violence against those seen by such “priests” as enemies of God. The Austin police chief describes McQuilliams, a felon, as a “homegrown American terrorist trying to terrorize our people” and says a note found in the book “discusses his rank as a priest in his fight against anti-God people.” Statements made in police interviews also tie him to ultra-conservative groups with anti-Semitic, anti-LGBT and racist views.

PeterSibley
01-15-2015, 02:40 AM
Political condemnation or even discussion doesn't seem popular with the the GOP though.

Home-Grown, Right-Wing Terrorism: The Hate the GOP Refuses to See

As the Las Vegas shootings show, right-wing extremism is real and on the rise. But for Republicans, better to focus on the Muslims.
Remember in 2009, right at the start of the Obama era, when then-Secretary of Department of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano issued a report (PDF (http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/041609_extremism.pdf)) entitled: “Right-wing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment”? The report was truly prescient. It alerted us to the rise of right-wing extremism, such as from white supremacist groups, and warned that unchecked, it could lead to violence.

How did Republicans respond? They went ballistic attacking the report. John Boehner was especially upset (http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/08/07/645421/right-wing-extremism/) that Napolitano would use the term “terrorist” to “describe American citizens who disagree with the direction Washington Democrats are taking our nation,” adding, “using such broad-based generalizations about the American people is simply outrageous.”

Well, what have we seen since 2010? An explosion in the number of hate groups and a rash of domestic terrorist acts committed by those very right-wing groups Napolitano warned us about. Per the Southern Poverty Law Center, since 2010, there have been 32 instances of terrorism (http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/terror-from-the-right) by far-right groups—that equals eight attacks per year. (Of course, citing the SPLC won’t move many on the right because they continually tell me on Twitter that the SPLC is biased. They’re correct, the SPLC is biased. Against bigotry.)

The attacks include a plot in 2011 by members of a Georgia militia group to bomb a federal building and release deadly ricin in Atlanta; an attack by a white supremacist on a Sikh temple in Wisconsin that killed six people; another white supremacist planting bombs at a Martin Luther King parade in Seattle; and numerous plots against or actual killings of law enforcement officers. And this list doesn’t even include the anti-government LAX gunman (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/18/los-angeles-us-crime) who killed a TSA officer and wounded another in November 2013, or the attack we saw this past weekend by Jerad and Amanda Miller (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/09/hatriot-politics-created-the-las-vegas-killers.html), who executed two Las Vegas policemen and then tossed the Gadsden flag used by the Tea Party onto the dead officers’ bodies.

So how have Republicans responded to the rise of attacks by right-wing groups? By ignoring it and keeping their focus on foreign terrorists and Muslim-Americans. Perhaps the Republican members of Congress would find it instructive to reread the oath (http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Oath_Office.htm) they took upon being sworn into office that provides in part: “I do solemnly swear to defend the United States…against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”

Republicans won’t investigate right-wing extremists because it would not only anger their base, it would actually indict some parts of it.



I’m sure they are fully aware of these words. The actual reason Republicans won’t investigate right-wing extremists is that it would not only anger their base, it would actually indict some parts of it. Let’s be honest: In a time when establishment Republicans are concerned about getting challenged in primaries by more conservative Tea Party types, calling for hearings to investigate right-wing organizations could be political suicide.
So instead, in 2011 and 2012 we saw Rep. Peter King hold five sets of hearings (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/13/peter-king-muslim-radicalization-hearing_n_1594564.html) about the radicalization of Muslims when he was chair of the House Homeland Security Committee. I attended the first of these hearings and listened as Democratic members of the committee urged King to broaden his investigation to look at radicalization of Americans regardless of faith. They cited studies warning of a record number of right-wing hate groups and resurgence of anti-government chatter. But King wouldn’t have any of it.

We have seen similar tactics by Republicans in state legislatures. Instead of focusing on potential far-right groups in their state, they have passed laws intended to demonize Muslims because it plays to their base. In fact, just last month in Florida, an anti-sharia measure was signed into law by Gov. Rick Scott even though supporters admitted there hadn’t been even one instance (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/commentary-anti-muslim-bigotry-taints-florida-ban-on-foreign-laws/2014/05/16/fae45b08-dd27-11e3-a837-8835df6c12c4_story.html) of Muslims in Florida trying to impose Islamic law. Yet, in Florida there has been a documented upsurge in the Ku Klux Klan, with the group now boasting more than 1,000 members (http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/9-investigates-ku-klux-klan/nc7fS).
And some Republican elected officials have even implicitly given their blessings to the right-wing view that weapons may be needed to fight off an overreaching federal government. We saw this during the recent standoff between Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy and federal officers. Rand Paul and other GOP officials praised Bundy (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/04/24/rand-paul-and-other-republican-leaders-back-away-from-bundy/) with full knowledge that there was in essence an armed militia of private citizens who had their guns trained on federal officers.

The threat of right-wing domestic terrorism is very real. In fact, just last week, the Department of Justice announced that it was reviving (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-security-homegrown-20140603,0,7728785.story) its domestic terrorism taskforce. As Attorney General Eric Holder explained, we must be vigilant in protecting Americans against the “danger we face from individuals within our own borders who may be motivated by a variety of other causes from anti-government animus to racial prejudice.”

It’s time that the GOP join in the fight against the threats posed to our nation by right-wing extremists. True, this could cause them problems with parts of their own political base, but saving American lives must trump politics.
In a perfect world, the GOP would address the threats posed by these extremists with the same zeal they’re investigating the “truth” surrounding Benghazi. But they won’t. The hard truth is that the GOP can’t lose any of its shrinking base by alienating the lunatic fringe and their supporters, from the Ted Nugents to the Cliven Bundys to the white supremacists. You see, what we view as radicals, the GOP views as their last, best hope.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/11/home-grown-right-wing-terrorism-the-hate-the-gop-refuses-to-see.html

Rum_Pirate
01-15-2015, 09:56 AM
The right have been calling for the world's Muslim population to condemn terrorism ...which of course they have . But it made me wonder i=f the US right has equally condemned the right wing terrorism that abounds in the US. Perhaps they have but I can't remember anyone her doing it ... but perhaps it just slipped by.

So here's another opportunity. While the Islamic population condemns the Charlie Hebro killers the right in America can condemn and even discuss the motivations for domestic US terrorism.

Enjoy. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/11/home-grown-right-wing-terrorism-the-hate-the-gop-refuses-to-see.html


Have the left been calling for the world's Muslim population to condemn terrorism? YES/NO

Canoez
01-15-2015, 10:10 AM
Have the left been calling for the world's Muslim population to condemn terrorism? YES/NO

You don't need to, they already have. You keep harping on this, but others here have already shown this to have happened.

The problem here is that now that Muslims around the world condemned the terrorist attack on Charlie Hebdo, Charlie Hebdo goes and offends Muslims - again. Go figure.

The issue here that people forget came to light in an NPR interview last night where there was a French school principal discussing how about 80% of his students refused to participate in a moment of silence for those killed in the Charlie Hebdo attacks - the students were of the opinion that Islamic law was above French Law and that the publishers broke Islamic Law. The principal was fighting an uphill battle to try to explain that it is actually not that way.

John of Phoenix
01-15-2015, 10:14 AM
Rand Paul and other GOP officials praised Bundy with full knowledge that there was in essence an armed militia of private citizens who had their guns trained on federal officers.And you expect the GOP to CONDEMN them?

They're all Celebrating Being Stupid.

Rum_Pirate
01-15-2015, 10:38 AM
The right have been calling for the world's Muslim population to condemn terrorism ...which of course they have . But it made me wonder i=f the US right has equally condemned the right wing terrorism that abounds in the US. Perhaps they have but I can't remember anyone her doing it ... but perhaps it just slipped by.

So here's another opportunity. While the Islamic population condemns the Charlie Hebro killers the right in America can condemn and even discuss the motivations for domestic US terrorism.




Is there any nonparty terrorism in the USA?

Is there any left wing terrorism in the USA?


So here's another opportunity. While the Islamic population condemns the Charlie Hebro killers the right in America can condemn and even discuss the motivations for domestic US terrorism.

The entire Islamic population does?


I would suggest and consider that it it is a good thing that the right (and left) can discuss the motivations for domestic US terrorism.

David W Pratt
01-15-2015, 01:27 PM
George Metesky died in 1994

Osborne Russell
01-15-2015, 03:00 PM
The right have been calling for the world's Muslim population to condemn terrorism ...which of course they have . But it made me wonder i=f the US right has equally condemned the right wing terrorism that abounds in the US. Perhaps they have but I can't remember anyone her doing it ... but perhaps it just slipped by.

The FBI issued a report on domestic terrorism which said that right-wing groups posed a greater threat, domestically, than Islamic groups.

The right wing brought their assault rifles into the restaurants to protest the injustice of the accusation.

Rum_Pirate
01-15-2015, 03:11 PM
The FBI issued a report on domestic terrorism which said that right-wing groups posed a greater threat, domestically, than Islamic groups.

The right wing brought their assault rifles into the restaurants to protest the injustice of the accusation.

'Domestic' is duly noted.

Any links to FBI report?

Did the 'right wing' shoot and kill anyone over the 'injustice of the accusation' ?

Canoez
01-15-2015, 03:15 PM
The entire Islamic population does?


If you're expecting the whole Christian population to denounce the Westboro Baptist Church, you'd be sorely disappointed...

TomF
01-15-2015, 03:18 PM
'Domestic' is duly noted.

Any links to FBI report?

Did the 'right wing' shoot and kill anyone over the 'injustice of the accusation' ?See posts #1, #3, and #4 for some related content.

In the past year or so in Canada, we've had more self-proclaimed RW ideological anti-Government anti-Police shootings than Islamist ones, though we've had both kinds.

Rum_Pirate
01-15-2015, 03:20 PM
If you're expecting the whole Christian population to denounce the Westboro Baptist Church, you'd be sorely disappointed...


No, I wouldn't expect that. I was just highlighting the all encompassing sweeping statement of PeterSibley.

Just as you point out, similarly I would expect that the whole Christian population to denounce a certain section, sect, denomination etc.

Sky Blue
01-15-2015, 03:21 PM
they go and offend Muslims

No. Some Muslims are choosing to be offended, and some of them respond violently in respect to their choice.

This goes back to the Left's illusory view of cultural sensitivity. My right to say whatever the Hell I want does not confer upon you the right to strike me down because you have chosen to be offended at what I have said. At least not in a Western democracy.

My liberty does not hinge on whether or not you are offended. At least not yet. If the Left continues on its way about it, however, that may well change.

Rum_Pirate
01-15-2015, 03:26 PM
See posts #1, #3, and #4 for some related content.

In the past year or so in Canada, we've had more self-proclaimed RW ideological anti-Government anti-Police shootings than Islamist ones, though we've had both kinds.


I asked (and expanded here for clarity) a specific question : Did the 'right wing' shoot and kill anyone over the'injustice of the accusation by the FBI that the right wingposed a greater domestic threat, than Islamic groups' ?

Canoez
01-15-2015, 03:26 PM
I was just highlighting the all encompassing sweeping statement of INSERT NAME HERE.

Been a lot of that here - mostly folks trying seeming to try to paint all Muslims and the Muslim religion as a whole regarding the Charlie Hebdo issue.


Just as you point out, similarly I would expect that the whole Christian population to denounce a certain section, sect, denomination etc.

Er, what? That seems to be only part of a thought you were trying to express. Care to clarify?

Rum_Pirate
01-15-2015, 03:30 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png
(http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4418395#post4418395)I was just highlighting the all encompassing sweeping statement of INSERT NAME HERE.Been a lot of that here - mostly folks trying seeming to try to paint all Muslims and the Muslim religion as a whole regarding the Charlie Hebdo issue.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png
(http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4418395#post4418395)Just as you point out, similarly I would expect that the whole Christian population to denounce a certain section, sect, denomination etc.
Er, what? That seems to be only part of a thought you were trying to express. Care to clarify?

A 'typo' should read: Just as you point out, similarly I would NOT expect that the whole Christian population to denounce a certain section, sect, denomination etc.

Oops. Thanks for pointing that out.:ycool:

Canoez
01-15-2015, 03:31 PM
Just being fair, Doug.

TomF
01-15-2015, 03:32 PM
No. Some Muslims are choosing to be offended, and some of them respond violently in respect to their choice.

This goes back to the Left's illusory view of cultural sensitivity. My right to say whatever the Hell I want does not confer upon you the right to strike me down because you have chosen to be offended at what I have said. At least not in a Western democracy.

My liberty does not hinge on whether or not you are offended. At least not yet. If the Left continues on its way about it, however, that may well change.Of course, the Pope said (yesterday or today) that one shouldn't be terribly surprised if words even said within a "Free Speech" context prompt reactions. He said, for instance, that mentioning a "curse word" in relation to his (the Pope's) mother, one shouldn't be surprised to experience a punch. Not talking about conferring a right to whack back, but describing a reasonable expectation of a response.

Is he a Lefty ('cause of some of his comments) or a Righty ('cause he's Catholic)?

Rum_Pirate
01-15-2015, 03:36 PM
Just being fair, Doug.

You and me both. Y>

Sky Blue
01-15-2015, 03:38 PM
No one is surprised that the editors were "punched" back, TomF. The Pope's statement merely reflects a truism, and in that respect, the Pope's statement is kind of silly. Any person knows that speech may have consequences. There are many that would take a punch in exchange for having the freedom to say what they want.

But this line of reasoning, again, is susceptible to the rape analogy; that is, she was raped because she "asked for it" by dressing provocatively, etc. It doesn't wash.

TomF
01-15-2015, 03:54 PM
I asked (and expanded here for clarity) a specific question : Did the 'right wing' shoot and kill anyone over the'injustice of the accusation by the FBI that the right wingposed a greater domestic threat, than Islamic groups' ?To my knowledge, no. I don't think RWWs have launched terror attacks over the FBI's opinion that their terror was a greater threat to the domestic US than Islamist terror.

I'm also unaware, though, of any RWW group which has spent time informing one and all that publishing an FBI opinion about the level of their threats would be met with cries of "Death to the Infidel," "Blasphemy," or potentially beheadings. Other things wind them up - say, someone murmuring about taking away guns.

Seems to me that's a rather key distinction between how to irritate a RWW and an Islamist. Some fish are picky about which lures they'll bite. I wouldn't expect a RWW to get in a murderous lather about a cartoon, or an FBI assessment.

Rum_Pirate
01-15-2015, 03:58 PM
To my knowledge, no. Thanks.



To my knowledge, no. I don't think RWWs have launched terror attacks over the FBI's opinion that their terror was a greater threat to the domestic US than Islamist terror.

I'm also unaware, though, of any RWW group which has spent time informing one and all that publishing an FBI opinion about the level of their threats would be met with cries of "Death to the Infidel," "Blasphemy," or potentially beheadings. Other things wind them up - say, someone murmuring about taking away guns.

Seems to me that's a rather key distinction between how to irritate a RWW and an Islamist. Some fish are picky about which lures they'll bite. I wouldn't expect a RWW to get in a murderous lather about a cartoon, or an FBI assessment. Are the RWW (Right Wing Watch?) and the Islamists being held to different standards?

John of Phoenix
01-15-2015, 03:59 PM
My liberty does not hinge on whether or not you are offended. At least not yet. If the Left continues on its way about it, however, that may well change.We'll get all your guns first.

TomF
01-15-2015, 04:00 PM
No one is surprised that the editors were "punched" back, TomF. The Pope's statement merely reflects a truism, and in that respect, the Pope's statement is kind of silly. Any person knows that speech may have consequences. There are many that would take a punch in exchange for having the freedom to say what they want.

But this line of reasoning, again, is susceptible to the rape analogy; that is, she was raped because she "asked for it" by dressing provocatively, etc. It doesn't wash.It's a truism that folks are pretending isn't true.

Free Speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences, or freedom from a non-state actor turning criminal. Free Speech means freedom from Government oppression for saying something.

And BTW, any crime prevention guy will tell you to lock your doors, install motion-activated lights, trim shrubs that block views to your windows, etc. because it discourages would-be thieves. Not doing so ... makes you an easier target, even if it doesn't "legitimate" a criminal's actions, or make them OK. I have told my daughter to not walk in dark secluded places alone at night, because doing so increases her risks - for rape, mugging, etc..

It doesn't wash that good "avoidance and awareness" is advocated by police and crime prevention folks in some contexts, but the very same dynamic is somehow prejudicial in others. (I've had this conversation about rape avoidance on the board here before :D)

TomF
01-15-2015, 04:03 PM
Thanks.


Are the RWW (Right Wing Watch?) and the Islamists being held to different standards?for me RWW = "Right Wing Wackos," as opposed to LWW, Islamists, or other brands of wackos.

No, I don't feel that RWW and Islamists should be held to different standards. They should be held to the same standard - non-criminality. But it's silly to pretend that different violent groups don't get violent in response to different dog whistles.

Sky Blue
01-15-2015, 04:08 PM
Are the Islamists being held to different standards?

This is a great question and reveals an unconscious racism or cultural bias on the part of those willing to excuse in some manner the killers for having been provoked.

This line of reasoning supposes these poor killers, being who they are, are unable to comport themselves within the norms of Western liberty as a cultural matter and so we should be sensitive and tolerant of their illiberality, because it isn't really their fault.

PeterSibley
01-15-2015, 04:13 PM
I'd suggest Rummy go through this link to see if he can find an answer to his question. http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...es-to-see.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/11/home-grown-right-wing-terrorism-the-hate-the-gop-refuses-to-see.html)

TomF
01-15-2015, 04:13 PM
This is a great question and reveals an unconscious racism or cultural bias on the part of those willing to excuse in some manner the killers for having been provoked.

This line of reasoning supposes these poor killers, being who they are, are unable to comport themselves within the norms of Western liberty as a cultural matter and so we should be sensitive and tolerant of their illiberality, because it isn't really their fault.Nonsense.

The folks you're arguing with are advocating that Islamists NOT be held to a different standard than other murderers etc (which is what they'd prefer, and how they self-identify). The folks you're arguing with advocate that Islamists simply be treated as criminals.

Like it or not, this is how the British chose to prosecute the IRA as well. They actively sought to deny them the "dignity" of the identity of being a political prisoner or a freedom fighter etc. Instead, they affirmed that the people had broken British law, and were subject to punishment under it. Period.

Rum_Pirate
01-15-2015, 04:19 PM
Nonsense.

The folks you're arguing with are advocating that Islamists NOT be held to a different standard than other murderers etc (which is what they'd prefer, and how they self-identify). The folks you're arguing with advocate that Islamists simply be treated as criminals.

Like it or not, this is how the British chose to prosecute the IRA as well. They actively sought to deny them the "dignity" of the identity of being a political prisoner or a freedom fighter etc. Instead, they affirmed that the people had broken British law, and were subject to punishment under it. Period.

If people (RWW/terrorists/Democrats/IRA etc) break the law shouldn't they be prosecuted and punished in accordance with it?

TomF
01-15-2015, 04:23 PM
If people (RWW/terrorists/Democrats/IRA etc) break the law shouldn't they be prosecuted and punished in accordance with it?Yes they should. Absolutely right.

And as I've argued many times recently, the quite generic laws our states each have against violence, murder, conspiracy to murder, kidnapping etc. are entirely sufficient to prosecute and punish these people, whatever the motivation (RWW/Islamist/Democrat/IRA etc.) for those crimes. Establishing motive is always an element of the judicial proceeding, but the crime can still just be the crime.

Sky Blue
01-15-2015, 04:24 PM
Free speech means freedom from government oppression

You made this point in one of the other threads on this issue, TomF, and I wanted to support you on it because the point was not acknowledged and was otherwise being drowned in all of the other commentary on the topic, but I didn't. I will do so here.

Still, I think defining terminology is important and in the context of the Charlie Hebdo killings, I think people are referring to "free expression" or "free speech" in that context as persons being free to express oneself without having to worry about being murdered for causing offense. Certainly such a thing could happen in the abstract, as the Pope notes, but when it is claimed that there is a right to engage in such killing as an article of faith, and that the dignity of deities has thereby been avenged by doing so, well then people in the West will protest those beliefs and eventualities as inconsistent with their liberty.

PeterSibley
01-15-2015, 04:32 PM
The point of the OP was to illustrate that the Right is amazingly blind to it's own adherents and their crimes and certainly does not identity their crimes with the whole of it's movement.... the way it's spokespeople have characterised Islam.

TomF
01-15-2015, 04:37 PM
Tahnks SB. People are using the terminology of "free expression" to mean what you've described, I agree. Freedom from personal danger from a 3rd party for saying something which causes offence.

In most of our countries, this is rather a baseline expectation. We 2nd Amendment advocates periodically purport that police have no positive obligation to defend citizens (if this is a responsibility of citizens themselves, that justifies being armed) in fact the expectation of personal safety is fundamental in Western democracies. The mis-use of the phrase "Freedom of Speech" or "free expression" illustrates that people are feeling afraid and let-down exactly in that baseline expectation.

So the context of the Charlie Hebdo killings - and of similar incidents of 3rd party violence against citizens for their opinions - is where folks are actually upset that the State isn't being "Nanny-state protective" enough. It is not enough that Free Speech doesn't rain down lethal consequences by Government itself, Government must become people's protector from the consequences of speech too.

Now, I think that's not a bad thing for Governments to do. I support the notion that Government works to keep us safe from enemies foreign and domestic. But I also recognize in that, I'm ceding some of my own power to Government to do that for me (as 2nd Amendmenters wouldn't). And I recognize that such protections aren't entire - that I also participate in raising or lowering my own susceptibility to threat, just as I do by having decent locks on my door or not walking alone in dark areas of town at midnight.

TomF
01-15-2015, 04:37 PM
The point of the OP was to illustrate that the Right is amazingly blind to it's own adherents and their crimes and certainly does not identity their crimes with the whole of it's movement.... the way it's spokespeople have characterised Islam.And the point's been well made ... :D

PeterSibley
01-15-2015, 04:39 PM
Thanks Tom, I was getting heartily sick of the spray of sanctimonious bile .

Hot Air
01-15-2015, 04:49 PM
Peter is blind to his portrayal of the attitude of a few of the 'right' as identifying that attitude "with the whole of it's movement."

Sky Blue
01-15-2015, 04:57 PM
I'm on the right, I suppose, and there are plenty of these sovereign citizen nut jobs living right here in my county. They scare the Hell out of me and anyone else who doesn't subscribe to their views, irrespective of political persuasion.

I guess that makes me a moderate, yeah? :)

TomF
01-15-2015, 05:07 PM
There are others like you, SB. Good thing.

Rum_Pirate
01-15-2015, 05:13 PM
No, I wouldn't expect that. I was just highlighting the all encompassing sweeping statement of PeterSibley.



calling for the world's Muslim population to condemn terrorism ...which of course they have .

Not all mate.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2911717/Hang-cartoonists-Pakistani-Muslims-demand-death-sentence-Charlie-Hebdo-staff.html

'Hang the cartoonists!' Pakistani Muslims demand death sentence for Charlie Hebdo staff for committing 'worst act of terrorism' by drawing the Prophet Mohammed

Religious group rallies in Lahore with banners: 'Down with Charlie Hebdo'
Pakistani lawmakers pass resolution condemning image of the prophet
Turkish PM denounces the cartoon as an 'open provocation' to Muslims
Prosecutors probe Turkish paper that published extracts of Charlie Hebdo
Muslims call front cover image of Prophet renewed insult to their religion



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2911717/Hang-cartoonists-Pakistani-Muslims-demand-death-sentence-Charlie-Hebdo-staff.html#ixzz3OvlgcHKl
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Osborne Russell
01-15-2015, 08:41 PM
'Domestic' is duly noted.

Yes, Americans have far more to fear from their own domestic right wing.


Any links to FBI report?

Sorry. Easily googled.


Did the 'right wing' shoot and kill anyone over the 'injustice of the accusation' ?

Why do you ask?

They killed so many recently you could probably find ones that cited that very reason, if you wanted to. But in reality their paranoia is a seamless web. From Satan to Obama. Just remember:


The war is between the right and the left in this country. If you bothered to evaluate any of the behavior and actions of the current administration and the democrats in general... we are in a FRICKING War... for the survival of the right and the future of this country.

Osborne Russell
01-15-2015, 08:56 PM
A previous report was suppressed. Impossible without Republican muscle. The government is warned not to report on domestic right-wing terrorism.


06/09/2014 - 23:49

Looking clearly at right-wing terrorism

Charles P. Blair

Five years ago the US Department of Homeland Security’s Homeland Environment Threat Analysis Division released an assessment of US far-right extremism. Initially intended for law enforcement and intelligence agencies only, the report—“Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment”—was almost immediately leaked. The report warned that small cells practicing “leaderless resistance” and “white supremacist lone wolves [posed] the most significant domestic terrorist threat.” Significantly, it highlighted the likelihood of expanded attempts by far-right extremists “to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities.” Overall, the report warned of trends similar to “the 1990s when rightwing extremism experienced a resurgence.” That far-right extremist rally reached a violent crescendo with the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995.

Reflecting on the past five years, a leading far-right extremism expert I recently interviewed described the homeland security report as “prophetic.” Mark Pitcavage, the Anti-Defamation League’s director of investigative research, explained that most of the warnings in the 2009 report have become realities. Yet at the time of its release, the document was derided by many inside and outside of government as “ridiculous [and] deeply offensive,” an “inconceivable” assault on US veterans, and, in general, “a piece of crap.” Buckling under political pressure from conservatives, homeland security rapidly repressed the report. Promptly removed from department's website, the tabooed document also disappeared from the computer systems of state and local law enforcement divisions as well as federal intelligence agencies. The homeland security unit responsible for the report was virtually muzzled. The report essentially fell into obscurity.

Despite this grim record—amid a political environment that often discounts warnings of far-right extremist threats and terrorism—the Department of Homeland Security remains reluctant to address the growing threat. One of the 2009 report’s primary authors noted that since “our report was leaked, DHS has not released a single report of its own on this topic. Not anything dealing with non-Islamic domestic extremism—whether it's anti-abortion extremists, white supremacists … the whole gamut.” Only very recently have reports been released by the unit in question; the few that address far-right extremism do so parsimoniously and with clear caution.


http://thebulletin.org/looking-clearly-right-wing-terrorism7232

PeterSibley
01-16-2015, 04:04 AM
Peter is blind to his portrayal of the attitude of a few of the 'right' as identifying that attitude "with the whole of it's movement."

Peter has been amazed recently at the broad, broad brush applied to Islam and decide to hold up a mirror for a few here to look at themselves and meditate on there deafening silence on ........

amid a political environment that often discounts warnings of far-right extremist threats and terrorism—the Department of Homeland Security remains reluctant to address the growing threat. One of the 2009 report’s primary authors noted that since “our report was leaked, DHS has not released a single report of its own on this topic. Not anything dealing with non-Islamic domestic extremism—whether it's anti-abortion extremists, white supremacists … the whole gamut.” Only very recently have reports been released by the unit in question; the few that address far-right extremism do so parsimoniously and with clear caution.
.

http://thebulletin.org/looking-clearly-right-wing-terrorism7232

It's called political correctness, something the Left gets accused of and in this case, the Right performs.

Osborne Russell
01-16-2015, 06:35 PM
Peter has been amazed recently at the broad, broad brush applied to Islam . . .

They have that big brush and an exceedingly fine one which they use for self-portraiture.

johnw
01-16-2015, 06:54 PM
Thanks.


Are the RWW (Right Wing Watch?) and the Islamists being held to different standards?

No. The police go after them if they act in a criminal manner.