NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

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  • Arizona Bay
    Molecules of Freedom
    • Feb 2011
    • 6524

    NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

    Do it...

    The Opinion Pages | EDITORIAL

    Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

    By THE EDITORIAL BOARDDEC. 21, 2014


    Since the day President Obama took office, he has failed to bring to justice anyone responsible for the torture of terrorism suspects — an official government program conceived and carried out in the years after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

    He did allow his Justice Department to investigate the C.I.A.’s destruction of videotapes of torture sessions and those who may have gone beyond the torture techniques authorized by President George W. Bush. But the investigation did not lead to any charges being filed, or even any accounting of why they were not filed.
    .

    Mr. Obama has said multiple times that “we need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards,” as though the two were incompatible. They are not. The nation cannot move forward in any meaningful way without coming to terms, legally and morally, with the abhorrent acts that were authorized, given a false patina of legality, and committed by American men and women from the highest levels of government on down.

    Americans have known about many of these acts for years, but the 524-page executive summary of the Senate Intelligence Committee’s report erases any lingering doubt about their depravity and illegality: In addition to new revelations of sadistic tactics like “rectal feeding,” scores of detainees were waterboarded, hung by their wrists, confined in coffins, sleep-deprived, threatened with death or brutally beaten. In November 2002, one detainee who was chained to a concrete floor died of “suspected hypothermia.”

    These are, simply, crimes. They are prohibited by federal law, which defines torture as the intentional infliction of “severe physical or mental pain or suffering.” They are also banned by the Convention Against Torture, the international treaty that the United States ratified in 1994 and that requires prosecution of any acts of torture.

    So it is no wonder that today’s blinkered apologists are desperate to call these acts anything but torture, which they clearly were. As the report reveals, these claims fail for a simple reason: C.I.A. officials admitted at the time that what they intended to do was illegal.

    In July 2002, C.I.A. lawyers told the Justice Department that the agency needed to use “more aggressive methods” of interrogation that would “otherwise be prohibited by the torture statute.” They asked the department to promise not to prosecute those who used these methods. When the department refused, they shopped around for the answer they wanted. They got it from the ideologically driven lawyers in the Office of Legal Counsel, who wrote memos fabricating a legal foundation for the methods. Government officials now rely on the memos as proof that they sought and received legal clearance for their actions. But the report changes the game: We now know that this reliance was not made in good faith.

    No amount of legal pretzel logic can justify the behavior detailed in the report. Indeed, it is impossible to read it and conclude that no one can be held accountable. At the very least, Mr. Obama needs to authorize a full and independent criminal investigation.

    The question everyone will want answered, of course, is: Who should be held accountable? That will depend on what an investigation finds, and as hard as it is to imagine Mr. Obama having the political courage to order a new investigation, it is harder to imagine a criminal probe of the actions of a former president.

    But any credible investigation should include former Vice President Dick Cheney; Mr. Cheney’s chief of staff, David Addington; the former C.I.A. director George Tenet; and John Yoo and Jay Bybee, the Office of Legal Counsel lawyers who drafted what became known as the torture memos. There are many more names that could be considered, including Jose Rodriguez Jr., the C.I.A. official who orderedthe destruction of the videotapes; the psychologists who devised the torture regimen; and the C.I.A. employees who carried out that regimen.

    One would expect Republicans who have gone hoarse braying about Mr. Obama’s executive overreach to be the first to demand accountability, but with one notable exception, Senator John McCain, they have either fallen silent or actively defended the indefensible. They cannot even point to any results: Contrary to repeated claims by the C.I.A., the report concluded that “at no time” did any of these techniques yield intelligence that averted a terror attack. And at least 26 detainees were later determined to have been “wrongfully held.”

    Starting a criminal investigation is not about payback; it is about ensuring that this never happens again and regaining the moral credibility to rebuke torture by other governments. Because of the Senate’s report, we now know the distance officials in the executive branch went to rationalize, and conceal, the crimes they wanted to commit. The question is whether the nation will stand by and allow the perpetrators of torture to have perpetual immunity for their actions.
    Greg H. - from before the great crash, 20th century member 108

    "(T)he Republican Party no longer recognizes the legitimacy of any opposition."
  • Ian McColgin
    Senior Member
    • Apr 1999
    • 51669

    #2
    Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

    I am of two minds on this. Of course criminals should be prosecuted. But crime and the choise to prosecute is largely a matter of social agreement. Take NYC, for example. The actual implementation of "broken windows" turned from an effective crime prevention tool into a tactic for community oppression. At the same time, the massive crimes of financiers have gone mostly unprosecuted or punished. Power and status are protections.

    As we move to the political arena, the nature of social agreement becomes more problematic. Some nations have managed a record for having their leaders leave power for either the grave or for jail. In reality, all that law works out to vengence rather than justice. In our system a president can be impeached - a quasi-legal to keep it focused on what the constitution meant but still fundamentally political process - while bringing a simple felony prosecution is legally problematic at best.

    I think that's for the best. If our president is leading the nation into war crimes, impeachment while that president is just right, as is impeachment for suborning the constitutional process, for example the motions that would have led to Nixon's impeachment.

    To that extent I at least sympathize with Obama's reluctance to order a prosecution of Bush 43 officials. Politically such prosecution would do wonders to unite the most reactionary of the Republican party and become a justification for a fascist state.

    Unfortunatly, Obama has a second far less laudable reason to resist prosecuting Bush officials - our drone assassination and terrorism campaign.

    Nothing simple here.

    Comment

    • Arizona Bay
      Molecules of Freedom
      • Feb 2011
      • 6524

      #3
      Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

      Originally posted by Ian McColgin
      I am of two minds on this...

      To that extent I at least sympathize with Obama's reluctance to order a prosecution of Bush 43 officials. Politically such prosecution would do wonders to unite the most reactionary of the Republican party and become a justification for a fascist state.

      Unfortunatly, Obama has a second far less laudable reason to resist prosecuting Bush officials - our drone assassination and terrorism campaign.

      Nothing simple here.

      i agree with you here, it's not a simple choice, and the consequences of either choice may be greater than we care to acknowledge.

      Do we continue as a terrorist state ,while undermining what we say we stand for? Or do we stand by our Constitutional principles to do what is needed, which may include a direct confrontation with a rising RW facism, as well as the loss of a President?

      In this lies a potential for a moment of greatness.
      Greg H. - from before the great crash, 20th century member 108

      "(T)he Republican Party no longer recognizes the legitimacy of any opposition."

      Comment

      • Gerarddm
        #RESIST
        • Feb 2010
        • 32553

        #4
        Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

        I respectfully disagree Ian, and agree with the NYTimes editorial.
        Gerard>
        Albuquerque, NM

        Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

        Comment

        • Osborne Russell
          Senior Member
          • Mar 2006
          • 27150

          #5
          Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

          Albert Speer was lucky to escape the death penalty. Of the remaining highest, none did. What's the diff with the Chimp Squad?

          The law either applies all the way up, or it doesn't. If not, why bother with it? And no way in hell can you settle for someone lower down, less political. That's unfair and cowardly.

          The consequences of doing it may be great but that's only half the question. What are the consequences of not doing it?
          Do not speak of "our institutions" unless you make them yours by acting on their behalf.

          Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny (2017)​

          Comment

          • Gerarddm
            #RESIST
            • Feb 2010
            • 32553

            #6
            Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

            What are the consequences of not doing it?

            The million dollar question.
            Gerard>
            Albuquerque, NM

            Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

            Comment

            • Hwyl
              Gareth
              • Jan 2003
              • 22231

              #7
              Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

              Originally posted by Gerarddm
              I respectfully disagree Ian, and agree with the NYTimes editorial.
              Me too.

              Comment

              • Osborne Russell
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2006
                • 27150

                #8
                Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

                Originally posted by Gerarddm
                The million dollar question.
                Answered when the laws were adopted, maybe not to two decimal points, but to this extent anyway: the consequences of not having a law are worse, therefore, the law is adopted. The consequences of exempting people are worse than not exempting them, therefore, there are no exemptions.
                Do not speak of "our institutions" unless you make them yours by acting on their behalf.

                Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny (2017)​

                Comment

                • skuthorp
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2002
                  • 73700

                  #9
                  Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

                  Whilst I agree with the NYT article, if you think the country is divided now imagine what prosecutions at this level would do.
                  But with the cat out of the bag it will be interesting to see what legal authorities do given their own credibility, or lack of it in the matter. Can the Fed AG's department ignore these laws whilst prosecuting others?

                  Comment

                  • Norman Bernstein
                    Liberaltarian
                    • Nov 2004
                    • 25223

                    #10
                    Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

                    It would be, I think, the moral and right thing to do... as well as being, politically, the worst thing to do.

                    The idealist in me says they ought to, in those immortal words from the Watergate era, "Twist slowly, slowly, in the wind".....

                    ...but the pragmatist in me says that while a bunch of criminals might get a pass, there would be nothing to be gained at this point by a prosecution.

                    At least we'll have the satisfaction of knowing that their legacy will be preserved. 50 years from now, the wikipedia entries for their names will make it clear just who they were, and what they did... too bad that their grandchildren and great-grandchildren will bear their shame.
                    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."






                    Comment

                    • Sky Blue
                      Banned
                      • Feb 2014
                      • 15090

                      #11
                      Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

                      Ian is correct.

                      A prosecution of this kind would take decades to prepare and litigate on the order of what is seen in war crimes litigation in Europe, would cost billions of dollars, and the perpetrators would never see a day in jail.

                      The next party-aligned administration would simply come along and issue a pardon for these offenses, either during the course of litigation or after a conviction, presuming convictions could even be had. Partisans opposed to Bush-era tactics and measures should have made their case at the time, as Ian supposes, though the political difficulty of their having done so seems obvious. With the partisan winds better prevailing, it seems opportunistic to do now what should have been done then, but for craven timidity.

                      I also share Ian's concern about what might occur in the aftermath of such a prosecution, in our republic, where any last pretense of transparency in government would be forever lost.

                      Comment

                      • skuthorp
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2002
                        • 73700

                        #12
                        Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

                        "The next party-aligned administration would simply come along and issue a pardon for these offenses,"
                        Makes a mockery of your judicial and legal system, and as for 'justice'? It obviously depends on your political connections or lack of them even more than it always has.

                        Comment

                        • Peerie Maa
                          Old Grey Inquisitive One
                          • Oct 2008
                          • 62531

                          #13
                          Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

                          Originally posted by skuthorp
                          "The next party-aligned administration would simply come along and issue a pardon for these offenses,"
                          Makes a mockery of your judicial and legal system, and as for 'justice'? It obviously depends on your political connections or lack of them even more than it always has.
                          Not totally, a pardon can only be granted for a criminal act.
                          Pardon

                          The action of an executive official of the government that mitigates or sets aside the punishment for a crime.
                          The granting of a pardon to a person who has committed a crime or who has been convicted of a crime is an act of clemency, which forgives the wrongdoer and restores the person's Civil Rights. At the federal level, the president has the power to grant a pardon, and at the state level the governor or a pardon board made up of high-ranking state officials may grant it.
                          So tried and found guilty, but the only punishment is total loss of reputation.
                          It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

                          The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
                          The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

                          Comment

                          • Jim Mahan
                            me 𑀩 thinking
                            • Mar 2006
                            • 11912

                            #14
                            Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

                            It would be, I think, the moral and right thing to do... as well as being, politically, the worst thing to do.
                            It would be worse if we don't do it, and someone else does. There are lots of other signatories to the anti-torture pact, who have standing to indict those perpetrators of those crimes and all the other crimes against humanity for which they should be tried.

                            Comment

                            • Sky Blue
                              Banned
                              • Feb 2014
                              • 15090

                              #15
                              Re: NYT - Prosecute Torturers and Their Bosses

                              Originally posted by skuthorp
                              "The next party-aligned administration would simply come along and issue a pardon for these offenses,"
                              Makes a mockery of your judicial and legal system, and as for 'justice'?
                              I don't know about that. While pardons are routinely given for the "connected" (as you correctly note), in a case such as officially-sanctioned systemic torture the issue of a pardon granted by a democratically-elected executive may well reflect the public will on an issue as important as national security, especially when a particular prosecution would be fraught with unprecedented partisanship that could lead the public to believe the result was decidedly unfair, even if a violation of law was proved.

                              Indeed, with the torture issue polling as it does in the US, it is difficult to imagine a political leader so utterly principled that he or she might trade their future electoral viability to make what some would consider a necessary and heroic point. I don't see it happening.

                              Comment

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