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Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 02:30 PM
Why are drivers for slotted screws tapered to the tip? What a stupid idea. It guarantees cam-out.

Do any of you grind your drivers flat? Do you know if anyone sells a non-tapered driver?

[ 06-18-2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 02:30 PM
Why are drivers for slotted screws tapered to the tip? What a stupid idea. It guarantees cam-out.

Do any of you grind your drivers flat? Do you know if anyone sells a non-tapered driver?

[ 06-18-2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 02:30 PM
Why are drivers for slotted screws tapered to the tip? What a stupid idea. It guarantees cam-out.

Do any of you grind your drivers flat? Do you know if anyone sells a non-tapered driver?

[ 06-18-2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

N. Scheuer
06-18-2003, 02:49 PM
the new types of screwdrivr inserts (the only sort I use anymore, because they're usually harder material than whole screwdrivers of questionable pedegree) are generally ground concave so tht the end that actually engages the screw is square and plumb.

I especially like the phillips end of the insert because I can easily replace them away when they get bunged up.

I keep a couple of old favorite screwdrivers just for old times sake, like maybe from Dad or his Father, and a couple more large ones just for prying off the lids of paint cans.

Moby Nick

N. Scheuer
06-18-2003, 02:49 PM
the new types of screwdrivr inserts (the only sort I use anymore, because they're usually harder material than whole screwdrivers of questionable pedegree) are generally ground concave so tht the end that actually engages the screw is square and plumb.

I especially like the phillips end of the insert because I can easily replace them away when they get bunged up.

I keep a couple of old favorite screwdrivers just for old times sake, like maybe from Dad or his Father, and a couple more large ones just for prying off the lids of paint cans.

Moby Nick

N. Scheuer
06-18-2003, 02:49 PM
the new types of screwdrivr inserts (the only sort I use anymore, because they're usually harder material than whole screwdrivers of questionable pedegree) are generally ground concave so tht the end that actually engages the screw is square and plumb.

I especially like the phillips end of the insert because I can easily replace them away when they get bunged up.

I keep a couple of old favorite screwdrivers just for old times sake, like maybe from Dad or his Father, and a couple more large ones just for prying off the lids of paint cans.

Moby Nick

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 02:55 PM
Ayup, first thing we do with a slotted tip driver is to grind the bit sides flush with the tip width.
One very good reason is some slotted drivers have the factory taper just too damn close to the tip and in a counterbored hole it will ream it out enough to make a plug/bung be too small to work.
I prefer the APEX type with the spring loaded sleeve that helps keep the bit in the slot when driving particularly when using a power driver.
The tip is not tapered and the fit is based truly on the screw size. ie: one for #8s and another for #12s etc..
Easier to keep the tip in the slot and reduce camout/messing up the slot.
Also good when using a brace to drive slotted screws.

APEX (http://www.coopertools.com/brands/apex/index.htm)

[ 06-18-2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 02:55 PM
Ayup, first thing we do with a slotted tip driver is to grind the bit sides flush with the tip width.
One very good reason is some slotted drivers have the factory taper just too damn close to the tip and in a counterbored hole it will ream it out enough to make a plug/bung be too small to work.
I prefer the APEX type with the spring loaded sleeve that helps keep the bit in the slot when driving particularly when using a power driver.
The tip is not tapered and the fit is based truly on the screw size. ie: one for #8s and another for #12s etc..
Easier to keep the tip in the slot and reduce camout/messing up the slot.
Also good when using a brace to drive slotted screws.

APEX (http://www.coopertools.com/brands/apex/index.htm)

[ 06-18-2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 02:55 PM
Ayup, first thing we do with a slotted tip driver is to grind the bit sides flush with the tip width.
One very good reason is some slotted drivers have the factory taper just too damn close to the tip and in a counterbored hole it will ream it out enough to make a plug/bung be too small to work.
I prefer the APEX type with the spring loaded sleeve that helps keep the bit in the slot when driving particularly when using a power driver.
The tip is not tapered and the fit is based truly on the screw size. ie: one for #8s and another for #12s etc..
Easier to keep the tip in the slot and reduce camout/messing up the slot.
Also good when using a brace to drive slotted screws.

APEX (http://www.coopertools.com/brands/apex/index.htm)

[ 06-18-2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

Concordia..41
06-18-2003, 03:36 PM
Grind 'em yes, and Dave's decade-old set of Snap Ons is my favorite by far. They've got the bit around the shank that fits a 1/4" or 3/8" wrench.

When removing the crumbling screws out of the bottom I figured out that if I held the screwdriver exactly straight with the palm of my left hand and turned the screwdriver with a wrench with my right the sucess ratio goes right off the chart.

Even if you grind 'em square, it's pretty hard to keep even pressure on the screwdriver with the way your hand and wrist turns with the screwdriver. Especially since you're usually in an ackward position.

If I can get even pressure that first quarter turn, a little thank you to the screw gods and they usually back right out :D

Make sense to anyone but me???

- M

Concordia..41
06-18-2003, 03:36 PM
Grind 'em yes, and Dave's decade-old set of Snap Ons is my favorite by far. They've got the bit around the shank that fits a 1/4" or 3/8" wrench.

When removing the crumbling screws out of the bottom I figured out that if I held the screwdriver exactly straight with the palm of my left hand and turned the screwdriver with a wrench with my right the sucess ratio goes right off the chart.

Even if you grind 'em square, it's pretty hard to keep even pressure on the screwdriver with the way your hand and wrist turns with the screwdriver. Especially since you're usually in an ackward position.

If I can get even pressure that first quarter turn, a little thank you to the screw gods and they usually back right out :D

Make sense to anyone but me???

- M

Concordia..41
06-18-2003, 03:36 PM
Grind 'em yes, and Dave's decade-old set of Snap Ons is my favorite by far. They've got the bit around the shank that fits a 1/4" or 3/8" wrench.

When removing the crumbling screws out of the bottom I figured out that if I held the screwdriver exactly straight with the palm of my left hand and turned the screwdriver with a wrench with my right the sucess ratio goes right off the chart.

Even if you grind 'em square, it's pretty hard to keep even pressure on the screwdriver with the way your hand and wrist turns with the screwdriver. Especially since you're usually in an ackward position.

If I can get even pressure that first quarter turn, a little thank you to the screw gods and they usually back right out :D

Make sense to anyone but me???

- M

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 03:44 PM
Margo, a smack with your 1.5 or 2Lb 'thumper' on an old screwdriver bit in the slot before trying to remove old screws has been known to work quite nicely.

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 03:44 PM
Margo, a smack with your 1.5 or 2Lb 'thumper' on an old screwdriver bit in the slot before trying to remove old screws has been known to work quite nicely.

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 03:44 PM
Margo, that makes perfect sense. It's kind of like using a brace.

I have an old square-shanked screwdriver that I use with a wrench for backing out old screws from tight places where my brace won't fit.

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 03:44 PM
Margo, that makes perfect sense. It's kind of like using a brace.

I have an old square-shanked screwdriver that I use with a wrench for backing out old screws from tight places where my brace won't fit.

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 03:44 PM
Margo, a smack with your 1.5 or 2Lb 'thumper' on an old screwdriver bit in the slot before trying to remove old screws has been known to work quite nicely.

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 03:44 PM
Margo, that makes perfect sense. It's kind of like using a brace.

I have an old square-shanked screwdriver that I use with a wrench for backing out old screws from tight places where my brace won't fit.

Concordia..41
06-18-2003, 04:15 PM
Thanks Dave I do that too. I can't figure out though is the rap with the hammer to show it who's boss or to vibrate down the screw and do a little dislodging? Or to seat the screwdriver good? Or all of the above?

Here you go Scott. I've been waiting for the Snap-On catalog to go on line. The Snap-On and Mac Tools trucks drive right by me every week, guess they don't think a girl needs tools :mad:

There's a nice combination set with 5 flat and phillips too. Actually there's a lot of nice lot of things with a lot of nice prices to match :eek:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/36600/36581.JPG

- M

Concordia..41
06-18-2003, 04:15 PM
Thanks Dave I do that too. I can't figure out though is the rap with the hammer to show it who's boss or to vibrate down the screw and do a little dislodging? Or to seat the screwdriver good? Or all of the above?

Here you go Scott. I've been waiting for the Snap-On catalog to go on line. The Snap-On and Mac Tools trucks drive right by me every week, guess they don't think a girl needs tools :mad:

There's a nice combination set with 5 flat and phillips too. Actually there's a lot of nice lot of things with a lot of nice prices to match :eek:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/36600/36581.JPG

- M

Concordia..41
06-18-2003, 04:15 PM
Thanks Dave I do that too. I can't figure out though is the rap with the hammer to show it who's boss or to vibrate down the screw and do a little dislodging? Or to seat the screwdriver good? Or all of the above?

Here you go Scott. I've been waiting for the Snap-On catalog to go on line. The Snap-On and Mac Tools trucks drive right by me every week, guess they don't think a girl needs tools :mad:

There's a nice combination set with 5 flat and phillips too. Actually there's a lot of nice lot of things with a lot of nice prices to match :eek:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/36600/36581.JPG

- M

htom
06-18-2003, 04:32 PM
Some screw slots are tapered, and I assume that some marketing genious decided to market screwdrivers for those (although straight bladed drivers work fine in them.) Others noticed that such were cheaper to make. Still others then noticed that they could charge more for "doing it right".

htom
06-18-2003, 04:32 PM
Some screw slots are tapered, and I assume that some marketing genious decided to market screwdrivers for those (although straight bladed drivers work fine in them.) Others noticed that such were cheaper to make. Still others then noticed that they could charge more for "doing it right".

htom
06-18-2003, 04:32 PM
Some screw slots are tapered, and I assume that some marketing genious decided to market screwdrivers for those (although straight bladed drivers work fine in them.) Others noticed that such were cheaper to make. Still others then noticed that they could charge more for "doing it right".

john welsford
06-18-2003, 05:50 PM
Robertson Square drives, Robertson square drives, Robertson square drives, Roberson ------------------

JohnW

john welsford
06-18-2003, 05:50 PM
Robertson Square drives, Robertson square drives, Robertson square drives, Roberson ------------------

JohnW

john welsford
06-18-2003, 05:50 PM
Robertson Square drives, Robertson square drives, Robertson square drives, Roberson ------------------

JohnW

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 07:13 PM
John W, Square drive is fine for new stuff but, what the hell are you going to do with 30 or so year old US built boats of which there are just a 'few' out there and, loaded with slotted head screws?

When I began it was slotted drive then Reed and Prince or Phillips were the popular driver types.
So far I have not seen any square drive in use but I know some folks must be using them.
Slotted in Silly Bronze and SS and Monel are still made and as I posted so are the slotted drivers for them.

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 07:13 PM
John W, Square drive is fine for new stuff but, what the hell are you going to do with 30 or so year old US built boats of which there are just a 'few' out there and, loaded with slotted head screws?

When I began it was slotted drive then Reed and Prince or Phillips were the popular driver types.
So far I have not seen any square drive in use but I know some folks must be using them.
Slotted in Silly Bronze and SS and Monel are still made and as I posted so are the slotted drivers for them.

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 07:13 PM
John W, Square drive is fine for new stuff but, what the hell are you going to do with 30 or so year old US built boats of which there are just a 'few' out there and, loaded with slotted head screws?

When I began it was slotted drive then Reed and Prince or Phillips were the popular driver types.
So far I have not seen any square drive in use but I know some folks must be using them.
Slotted in Silly Bronze and SS and Monel are still made and as I posted so are the slotted drivers for them.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
06-18-2003, 08:19 PM
I stopped using dime store screwdrivers a long time ago.... Snap on is the only one I use now, and I have filled out my set to include the long ones and a multi driver. Robertson screws on a boat are problematic for cleaning the heads out, but I admit they are an excellent screw for most things. My whole boat is philips.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
06-18-2003, 08:19 PM
I stopped using dime store screwdrivers a long time ago.... Snap on is the only one I use now, and I have filled out my set to include the long ones and a multi driver. Robertson screws on a boat are problematic for cleaning the heads out, but I admit they are an excellent screw for most things. My whole boat is philips.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
06-18-2003, 08:19 PM
I stopped using dime store screwdrivers a long time ago.... Snap on is the only one I use now, and I have filled out my set to include the long ones and a multi driver. Robertson screws on a boat are problematic for cleaning the heads out, but I admit they are an excellent screw for most things. My whole boat is philips.

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 08:31 PM
Years ago, when I worked in car dealer parts department, the mechanics all used Snap-on tools. I bought a few myself when the truck would come by. They are beautiful tools. But the mechanics all told me to get Craftsman or SK, as being a better value for an occassional user.

I just checked out Snap-on's online catalog. Wow! Great stuff, but very, very expensive. I especially like the shop set that sells for $39,000.

I would have a hard time justifying spending $115 for a small screwdriver set. Or $400 for a wrench set when the similar SK or Craftsman set is about 25% of that. But if I could find a way . . . I would. ;)

Edited to add: But if I were doing it for living, spending 8 to 10 hours a day with the tools in my hands, I would want the best I could get. Snap-on drivers and wrenches, Lie-Neilsen planes, etc. Or if I were refastening an entire 35 foot hull, I'd spring for the best drivers I could find, regardless of cost.

[ 06-18-2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 08:31 PM
Years ago, when I worked in car dealer parts department, the mechanics all used Snap-on tools. I bought a few myself when the truck would come by. They are beautiful tools. But the mechanics all told me to get Craftsman or SK, as being a better value for an occassional user.

I just checked out Snap-on's online catalog. Wow! Great stuff, but very, very expensive. I especially like the shop set that sells for $39,000.

I would have a hard time justifying spending $115 for a small screwdriver set. Or $400 for a wrench set when the similar SK or Craftsman set is about 25% of that. But if I could find a way . . . I would. ;)

Edited to add: But if I were doing it for living, spending 8 to 10 hours a day with the tools in my hands, I would want the best I could get. Snap-on drivers and wrenches, Lie-Neilsen planes, etc. Or if I were refastening an entire 35 foot hull, I'd spring for the best drivers I could find, regardless of cost.

[ 06-18-2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 08:31 PM
Years ago, when I worked in car dealer parts department, the mechanics all used Snap-on tools. I bought a few myself when the truck would come by. They are beautiful tools. But the mechanics all told me to get Craftsman or SK, as being a better value for an occassional user.

I just checked out Snap-on's online catalog. Wow! Great stuff, but very, very expensive. I especially like the shop set that sells for $39,000.

I would have a hard time justifying spending $115 for a small screwdriver set. Or $400 for a wrench set when the similar SK or Craftsman set is about 25% of that. But if I could find a way . . . I would. ;)

Edited to add: But if I were doing it for living, spending 8 to 10 hours a day with the tools in my hands, I would want the best I could get. Snap-on drivers and wrenches, Lie-Neilsen planes, etc. Or if I were refastening an entire 35 foot hull, I'd spring for the best drivers I could find, regardless of cost.

[ 06-18-2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

Peter Malcolm Jardine
06-18-2003, 08:35 PM
I have a variety of wrenches... Snap, Westward, Craftsman, and I still the like the Snap On stuff best...altho the other stuff is fine....but I REALLY noticed the difference in a Snap on s/d and while I buy a lot of other things in other brands, I don't regret the s/d purchase for a minute. That, and Channellock pliers. ;) Buy one Snap on screwdriver in your favourite size and try it... smile.gif

Edited to add... and this could well turn into a grumble about how stupid I've been sometimes buying less than I should. The craftsman set of drivers I still have... but I have shattered the tips on them a couple of times. I hate finding out I should have sprung for the best to start with....so I pick the areas that I know I am going to use the hell out of and pays the money :D

[ 06-18-2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm Jardine ]

Peter Malcolm Jardine
06-18-2003, 08:35 PM
I have a variety of wrenches... Snap, Westward, Craftsman, and I still the like the Snap On stuff best...altho the other stuff is fine....but I REALLY noticed the difference in a Snap on s/d and while I buy a lot of other things in other brands, I don't regret the s/d purchase for a minute. That, and Channellock pliers. ;) Buy one Snap on screwdriver in your favourite size and try it... smile.gif

Edited to add... and this could well turn into a grumble about how stupid I've been sometimes buying less than I should. The craftsman set of drivers I still have... but I have shattered the tips on them a couple of times. I hate finding out I should have sprung for the best to start with....so I pick the areas that I know I am going to use the hell out of and pays the money :D

[ 06-18-2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm Jardine ]

Peter Malcolm Jardine
06-18-2003, 08:35 PM
I have a variety of wrenches... Snap, Westward, Craftsman, and I still the like the Snap On stuff best...altho the other stuff is fine....but I REALLY noticed the difference in a Snap on s/d and while I buy a lot of other things in other brands, I don't regret the s/d purchase for a minute. That, and Channellock pliers. ;) Buy one Snap on screwdriver in your favourite size and try it... smile.gif

Edited to add... and this could well turn into a grumble about how stupid I've been sometimes buying less than I should. The craftsman set of drivers I still have... but I have shattered the tips on them a couple of times. I hate finding out I should have sprung for the best to start with....so I pick the areas that I know I am going to use the hell out of and pays the money :D

[ 06-18-2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm Jardine ]

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 08:37 PM
Okay, Peter, you've convinced me. I'll buy just one Snap-on screwdriver just for the heck of it . . . ;)

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 08:37 PM
Okay, Peter, you've convinced me. I'll buy just one Snap-on screwdriver just for the heck of it . . . ;)

Scott Rosen
06-18-2003, 08:37 PM
Okay, Peter, you've convinced me. I'll buy just one Snap-on screwdriver just for the heck of it . . . ;)

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 08:40 PM
OK OK, is this a thread on tools or what?

< insert big grin here>

For my money over the years, you can't beat WRIGHT tools. 4140 alloy steel and that 8 point socket set that let us deal with older 4 point nuts and newer 6 points with one socket set!
Good stuff, IMOOP, that is.
Now if I was an Indy mechanic I would be after a few sets of this.....

Stahwille (http://www.stahlwille.de/pages_e/02_produkte/default.php?pid=steprd)

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 08:40 PM
OK OK, is this a thread on tools or what?

< insert big grin here>

For my money over the years, you can't beat WRIGHT tools. 4140 alloy steel and that 8 point socket set that let us deal with older 4 point nuts and newer 6 points with one socket set!
Good stuff, IMOOP, that is.
Now if I was an Indy mechanic I would be after a few sets of this.....

Stahwille (http://www.stahlwille.de/pages_e/02_produkte/default.php?pid=steprd)

Dave Fleming
06-18-2003, 08:40 PM
OK OK, is this a thread on tools or what?

< insert big grin here>

For my money over the years, you can't beat WRIGHT tools. 4140 alloy steel and that 8 point socket set that let us deal with older 4 point nuts and newer 6 points with one socket set!
Good stuff, IMOOP, that is.
Now if I was an Indy mechanic I would be after a few sets of this.....

Stahwille (http://www.stahlwille.de/pages_e/02_produkte/default.php?pid=steprd)

Ian Wright
06-19-2003, 03:03 AM
Leaving aside the use of a brace does anyone know why a long cabinet makers 'driver makes inserting/withdrawing screws easier than a short one?

IanW.

Ian Wright
06-19-2003, 03:03 AM
Leaving aside the use of a brace does anyone know why a long cabinet makers 'driver makes inserting/withdrawing screws easier than a short one?

IanW.

Ian Wright
06-19-2003, 03:03 AM
Leaving aside the use of a brace does anyone know why a long cabinet makers 'driver makes inserting/withdrawing screws easier than a short one?

IanW.

N. Scheuer
06-19-2003, 06:39 AM
May not be the "official cabinetmakers' answer", but I think it has to do with simple geometry.

The longer the screwdriver shaft, the smaller the angle off vertical (or in-line with the screw) when your hand-arm movements introduce a given amount of "wobble". The worse the deflection, the more likely the screwdriver bit will slip out of the slot, especially with straight-slotted screws.

It's why I won't use one of those "shorty" screwdrivers unless the surrounding space makes it absolutely necessary.

Moby Nick

N. Scheuer
06-19-2003, 06:39 AM
May not be the "official cabinetmakers' answer", but I think it has to do with simple geometry.

The longer the screwdriver shaft, the smaller the angle off vertical (or in-line with the screw) when your hand-arm movements introduce a given amount of "wobble". The worse the deflection, the more likely the screwdriver bit will slip out of the slot, especially with straight-slotted screws.

It's why I won't use one of those "shorty" screwdrivers unless the surrounding space makes it absolutely necessary.

Moby Nick

N. Scheuer
06-19-2003, 06:39 AM
May not be the "official cabinetmakers' answer", but I think it has to do with simple geometry.

The longer the screwdriver shaft, the smaller the angle off vertical (or in-line with the screw) when your hand-arm movements introduce a given amount of "wobble". The worse the deflection, the more likely the screwdriver bit will slip out of the slot, especially with straight-slotted screws.

It's why I won't use one of those "shorty" screwdrivers unless the surrounding space makes it absolutely necessary.

Moby Nick

carlg
06-19-2003, 09:34 AM
I bought a set of Mac screwdrivers in the early 60's for a pittance (at the time) and am still using them. The #2 Philips will still fit perfectly in a screw and grips so well it will even stand out horizontally from a screw in a vertical surface. Top quality stuff.

carlg
06-19-2003, 09:34 AM
I bought a set of Mac screwdrivers in the early 60's for a pittance (at the time) and am still using them. The #2 Philips will still fit perfectly in a screw and grips so well it will even stand out horizontally from a screw in a vertical surface. Top quality stuff.

carlg
06-19-2003, 09:34 AM
I bought a set of Mac screwdrivers in the early 60's for a pittance (at the time) and am still using them. The #2 Philips will still fit perfectly in a screw and grips so well it will even stand out horizontally from a screw in a vertical surface. Top quality stuff.

Jerry Sousa
06-19-2003, 11:44 AM
What Moby said is partialy true in reply to Ian's question as to why a long screwdriver is easier to work with. The main reason for ease of removal that I would venture, would be for the torque which is introduced into the system by the length of the shaft (ahem). The added force is accelerating and it is this extra snap in the momentum which is sometimes crucial in breaking free a long held screw.

Jerry Sousa
06-19-2003, 11:44 AM
What Moby said is partialy true in reply to Ian's question as to why a long screwdriver is easier to work with. The main reason for ease of removal that I would venture, would be for the torque which is introduced into the system by the length of the shaft (ahem). The added force is accelerating and it is this extra snap in the momentum which is sometimes crucial in breaking free a long held screw.

Jerry Sousa
06-19-2003, 11:44 AM
What Moby said is partialy true in reply to Ian's question as to why a long screwdriver is easier to work with. The main reason for ease of removal that I would venture, would be for the torque which is introduced into the system by the length of the shaft (ahem). The added force is accelerating and it is this extra snap in the momentum which is sometimes crucial in breaking free a long held screw.

Wayne Jeffers
06-19-2003, 12:07 PM
The best slotted screwdriver tip I've ever used is the one that came with my (inexpensive) impact driver twenty-something years ago. (Impact drivers are indispensable for working on motorcycles.) The tip is hollow ground so that the sides are effectively parallel at the tip, and it is made from really hard (minimally-malleable, but not brittle) steel.

The impact driver combines the principle of Dave's rap with a 24-oz. hammer, plus the torque said hammer blow generates with the impact driver.

Just the thing for removing stubborn slotted screws, IMOO. ;)

Wayne

Wayne Jeffers
06-19-2003, 12:07 PM
The best slotted screwdriver tip I've ever used is the one that came with my (inexpensive) impact driver twenty-something years ago. (Impact drivers are indispensable for working on motorcycles.) The tip is hollow ground so that the sides are effectively parallel at the tip, and it is made from really hard (minimally-malleable, but not brittle) steel.

The impact driver combines the principle of Dave's rap with a 24-oz. hammer, plus the torque said hammer blow generates with the impact driver.

Just the thing for removing stubborn slotted screws, IMOO. ;)

Wayne

Wayne Jeffers
06-19-2003, 12:07 PM
The best slotted screwdriver tip I've ever used is the one that came with my (inexpensive) impact driver twenty-something years ago. (Impact drivers are indispensable for working on motorcycles.) The tip is hollow ground so that the sides are effectively parallel at the tip, and it is made from really hard (minimally-malleable, but not brittle) steel.

The impact driver combines the principle of Dave's rap with a 24-oz. hammer, plus the torque said hammer blow generates with the impact driver.

Just the thing for removing stubborn slotted screws, IMOO. ;)

Wayne

Dave Fleming
06-19-2003, 12:33 PM
Wayne, those APEX drivers I favor have the same tip configuration as your impact driver.
Since they are for power use as well as hand use they too are of harder stuff. I had one actually chip an edge it just fractured as I was driving a 3 inch #14 SS Screw for some deck fitting.

Dave Fleming
06-19-2003, 12:33 PM
Wayne, those APEX drivers I favor have the same tip configuration as your impact driver.
Since they are for power use as well as hand use they too are of harder stuff. I had one actually chip an edge it just fractured as I was driving a 3 inch #14 SS Screw for some deck fitting.

Dave Fleming
06-19-2003, 12:33 PM
Wayne, those APEX drivers I favor have the same tip configuration as your impact driver.
Since they are for power use as well as hand use they too are of harder stuff. I had one actually chip an edge it just fractured as I was driving a 3 inch #14 SS Screw for some deck fitting.

Sam F
06-20-2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by N. Scheuer:

It's why I won't use one of those "shorty" screwdrivers unless the surrounding space makes it absolutely necessary.

Moby NickThis reminds me of a technique I used working on industrial sewing machines. These beasts used a couple of little allens to hold down the "button" the needle passed through. These screws had to be tight or disaster would ensue. The allens were useless and always rounded out after one or two adjustments. There's no doubt in my mind that a slotted screw can, with the correctly ground driver, take a lot more torque than an allen. The solution was to order hardened slotted screws, but given the lack of space only a short screwdriver would fit… with the disadvantages Nick mentioned. I learned that a very long screw driver (over 1.5') would flex enough to clear the obstruction and fit the screw perfectly. I'd get those babies so tight that sparks would fly when loosening them.

Sam F
06-20-2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by N. Scheuer:

It's why I won't use one of those "shorty" screwdrivers unless the surrounding space makes it absolutely necessary.

Moby NickThis reminds me of a technique I used working on industrial sewing machines. These beasts used a couple of little allens to hold down the "button" the needle passed through. These screws had to be tight or disaster would ensue. The allens were useless and always rounded out after one or two adjustments. There's no doubt in my mind that a slotted screw can, with the correctly ground driver, take a lot more torque than an allen. The solution was to order hardened slotted screws, but given the lack of space only a short screwdriver would fit… with the disadvantages Nick mentioned. I learned that a very long screw driver (over 1.5') would flex enough to clear the obstruction and fit the screw perfectly. I'd get those babies so tight that sparks would fly when loosening them.

Sam F
06-20-2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by N. Scheuer:

It's why I won't use one of those "shorty" screwdrivers unless the surrounding space makes it absolutely necessary.

Moby NickThis reminds me of a technique I used working on industrial sewing machines. These beasts used a couple of little allens to hold down the "button" the needle passed through. These screws had to be tight or disaster would ensue. The allens were useless and always rounded out after one or two adjustments. There's no doubt in my mind that a slotted screw can, with the correctly ground driver, take a lot more torque than an allen. The solution was to order hardened slotted screws, but given the lack of space only a short screwdriver would fit… with the disadvantages Nick mentioned. I learned that a very long screw driver (over 1.5') would flex enough to clear the obstruction and fit the screw perfectly. I'd get those babies so tight that sparks would fly when loosening them.

Ed Harrow
06-20-2003, 08:06 AM
Garret Wade has what they call cabinet maker's screwdrivers (at least I think that's what they call them). Their blurb indicates that the blades have no taper. The drivers also have a bit just under the handle that allows one to get a purchase on them with a wrench. This is not hexagonal, like with S-O, but a flat which could be attacked effectively with a simple adjustable wrench.

Ed Harrow
06-20-2003, 08:06 AM
Garret Wade has what they call cabinet maker's screwdrivers (at least I think that's what they call them). Their blurb indicates that the blades have no taper. The drivers also have a bit just under the handle that allows one to get a purchase on them with a wrench. This is not hexagonal, like with S-O, but a flat which could be attacked effectively with a simple adjustable wrench.

Ed Harrow
06-20-2003, 08:06 AM
Garret Wade has what they call cabinet maker's screwdrivers (at least I think that's what they call them). Their blurb indicates that the blades have no taper. The drivers also have a bit just under the handle that allows one to get a purchase on them with a wrench. This is not hexagonal, like with S-O, but a flat which could be attacked effectively with a simple adjustable wrench.

shadow99
06-20-2003, 08:42 AM
I have to burst everyone's bubble, but Snap-On, Mac, & Craftsman screwdrivers are all made at the same company in Bridgeport, CT. A company, who has been making screwdrivers since 1903. The slotted screwdrivers are milled on a CITIZEN L5-20 VII 5 axis swiss-style machine tool, then heat-treated, the tips may bead blasted for extra grip. I've installed 10 of these machines just to make screwdriver blades & accesories. The taper on the tip of the blade was made to fit old style slotted screws that were formed instead of sawn like they are made now.

Rick

shadow99
06-20-2003, 08:42 AM
I have to burst everyone's bubble, but Snap-On, Mac, & Craftsman screwdrivers are all made at the same company in Bridgeport, CT. A company, who has been making screwdrivers since 1903. The slotted screwdrivers are milled on a CITIZEN L5-20 VII 5 axis swiss-style machine tool, then heat-treated, the tips may bead blasted for extra grip. I've installed 10 of these machines just to make screwdriver blades & accesories. The taper on the tip of the blade was made to fit old style slotted screws that were formed instead of sawn like they are made now.

Rick

shadow99
06-20-2003, 08:42 AM
I have to burst everyone's bubble, but Snap-On, Mac, & Craftsman screwdrivers are all made at the same company in Bridgeport, CT. A company, who has been making screwdrivers since 1903. The slotted screwdrivers are milled on a CITIZEN L5-20 VII 5 axis swiss-style machine tool, then heat-treated, the tips may bead blasted for extra grip. I've installed 10 of these machines just to make screwdriver blades & accesories. The taper on the tip of the blade was made to fit old style slotted screws that were formed instead of sawn like they are made now.

Rick

Sam F
06-20-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by shadow99:
...The taper on the tip of the blade was made to fit old style slotted screws that were formed instead of sawn like they are made now.

RickQuestion... I have some very old flat head wood screws salvaged from a wardrobe (1840-50?) that are blunt, sort of like a machine screw but with wood threads. Their slots seem to be sawn and not very well centered either. Were these old screws really formed? :confused:

Occasionally new slotted screws have a burr at the slot’s end; something I don’t think a saw would leave.

Sam F
06-20-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by shadow99:
...The taper on the tip of the blade was made to fit old style slotted screws that were formed instead of sawn like they are made now.

RickQuestion... I have some very old flat head wood screws salvaged from a wardrobe (1840-50?) that are blunt, sort of like a machine screw but with wood threads. Their slots seem to be sawn and not very well centered either. Were these old screws really formed? :confused:

Occasionally new slotted screws have a burr at the slot’s end; something I don’t think a saw would leave.

Sam F
06-20-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by shadow99:
...The taper on the tip of the blade was made to fit old style slotted screws that were formed instead of sawn like they are made now.

RickQuestion... I have some very old flat head wood screws salvaged from a wardrobe (1840-50?) that are blunt, sort of like a machine screw but with wood threads. Their slots seem to be sawn and not very well centered either. Were these old screws really formed? :confused:

Occasionally new slotted screws have a burr at the slot’s end; something I don’t think a saw would leave.

shadow99
06-20-2003, 11:11 AM
Some of the older screws were in fact formed by swaging according to the owner of the company that make the screwdrivers. New style screws some are saw-slit, and or broached, that would leave a burr, 'cause most company's wouldn't spend the money or time to deburr slots on screws, it's not productive. Philips head screws are formed, square-drive & hex key are broached. Also as far as centering the slot, due to the fact the WW II vintage machines are still running screws at this facility, it spits out a completed screw every 2 seconds, the tolerance is +/- .03" or so. If it comes out of the machine with a slot, on center or not, to them its a keeper. I guess it has been like this for 100 yrs. Screws with perfectly centered slots,deburred cost alot more, go figure. :confused:

Rick

shadow99
06-20-2003, 11:11 AM
Some of the older screws were in fact formed by swaging according to the owner of the company that make the screwdrivers. New style screws some are saw-slit, and or broached, that would leave a burr, 'cause most company's wouldn't spend the money or time to deburr slots on screws, it's not productive. Philips head screws are formed, square-drive & hex key are broached. Also as far as centering the slot, due to the fact the WW II vintage machines are still running screws at this facility, it spits out a completed screw every 2 seconds, the tolerance is +/- .03" or so. If it comes out of the machine with a slot, on center or not, to them its a keeper. I guess it has been like this for 100 yrs. Screws with perfectly centered slots,deburred cost alot more, go figure. :confused:

Rick

shadow99
06-20-2003, 11:11 AM
Some of the older screws were in fact formed by swaging according to the owner of the company that make the screwdrivers. New style screws some are saw-slit, and or broached, that would leave a burr, 'cause most company's wouldn't spend the money or time to deburr slots on screws, it's not productive. Philips head screws are formed, square-drive & hex key are broached. Also as far as centering the slot, due to the fact the WW II vintage machines are still running screws at this facility, it spits out a completed screw every 2 seconds, the tolerance is +/- .03" or so. If it comes out of the machine with a slot, on center or not, to them its a keeper. I guess it has been like this for 100 yrs. Screws with perfectly centered slots,deburred cost alot more, go figure. :confused:

Rick

Scott Rosen
06-20-2003, 12:08 PM
Thanks for that info, Rick. My next screwdrives will be Craftsman. They have a large selection and prices are reasonable. And they have a lot of square shank models.

Scott Rosen
06-20-2003, 12:08 PM
Thanks for that info, Rick. My next screwdrives will be Craftsman. They have a large selection and prices are reasonable. And they have a lot of square shank models.

Scott Rosen
06-20-2003, 12:08 PM
Thanks for that info, Rick. My next screwdrives will be Craftsman. They have a large selection and prices are reasonable. And they have a lot of square shank models.

Cecil Nickerson
06-23-2003, 11:29 AM
Sam, I believe, given the period, that you have screws made by hand, by a blacksmith. The lack of pointed ends and the irregular slots ( and probably size variations) would point to this origin. These characteristics are taken into consideration when attempting to date furniture.

Regards, Cecil

Cecil Nickerson
06-23-2003, 11:29 AM
Sam, I believe, given the period, that you have screws made by hand, by a blacksmith. The lack of pointed ends and the irregular slots ( and probably size variations) would point to this origin. These characteristics are taken into consideration when attempting to date furniture.

Regards, Cecil

Cecil Nickerson
06-23-2003, 11:29 AM
Sam, I believe, given the period, that you have screws made by hand, by a blacksmith. The lack of pointed ends and the irregular slots ( and probably size variations) would point to this origin. These characteristics are taken into consideration when attempting to date furniture.

Regards, Cecil

Sam F
06-23-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Cecil Nickerson:
Sam, I believe, given the period, that you have screws made by hand, by a blacksmith. The lack of pointed ends and the irregular slots ( and probably size variations) would point to this origin. These characteristics are taken into consideration when attempting to date furniture.

Regards, CecilI think you are correct. They do look hand made... and made in a hurry too. smile.gif
Even I can eyeball a center better than one of those screws... but if it were done as piecework I'd probably let quality slide too.

Sam F
06-23-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Cecil Nickerson:
Sam, I believe, given the period, that you have screws made by hand, by a blacksmith. The lack of pointed ends and the irregular slots ( and probably size variations) would point to this origin. These characteristics are taken into consideration when attempting to date furniture.

Regards, CecilI think you are correct. They do look hand made... and made in a hurry too. smile.gif
Even I can eyeball a center better than one of those screws... but if it were done as piecework I'd probably let quality slide too.

Sam F
06-23-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Cecil Nickerson:
Sam, I believe, given the period, that you have screws made by hand, by a blacksmith. The lack of pointed ends and the irregular slots ( and probably size variations) would point to this origin. These characteristics are taken into consideration when attempting to date furniture.

Regards, CecilI think you are correct. They do look hand made... and made in a hurry too. smile.gif
Even I can eyeball a center better than one of those screws... but if it were done as piecework I'd probably let quality slide too.

john welsford
06-25-2003, 06:15 PM
I have a double set of cabinetmakers screwdrivers with great big wooden handles, I also have a set of Marples straight bits for my brace and bit ( man you can get some torque on that) I have Phillips ( Stahlwille) Allen (Schneider) and a boxfull of other stuff.
I grind the tips of my straight screwdriver bit as required, about 2mm of parallel then the taper.
I have to use all the other stuff coz thats what comes with the boats and I also have a pile of slotted screws in stock, but much much much prefer the square drives.
Interestingly enough, we can get Silicon broze, aluminium bronze, brass, stainless ( several different grades ) and monel square drives here, the price is about 20% of the trad s/b slotted screw and if the guys dont have them and you can split a 20lb order with some friends they will make a run for you if its not in stock.
Must say that the locals dont have the tiny taper in the socket that the Robertson ones do which maks them not quite as good to use on a cordless but otherwise, any new work I do is all square drives.

JohnW


Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
John W, Square drive is fine for new stuff but, what the hell are you going to do with 30 or so year old US built boats of which there are just a 'few' out there and, loaded with slotted head screws?

When I began it was slotted drive then Reed and Prince or Phillips were the popular driver types.
So far I have not seen any square drive in use but I know some folks must be using them.
Slotted in Silly Bronze and SS and Monel are still made and as I posted so are the slotted drivers for them.

john welsford
06-25-2003, 06:15 PM
I have a double set of cabinetmakers screwdrivers with great big wooden handles, I also have a set of Marples straight bits for my brace and bit ( man you can get some torque on that) I have Phillips ( Stahlwille) Allen (Schneider) and a boxfull of other stuff.
I grind the tips of my straight screwdriver bit as required, about 2mm of parallel then the taper.
I have to use all the other stuff coz thats what comes with the boats and I also have a pile of slotted screws in stock, but much much much prefer the square drives.
Interestingly enough, we can get Silicon broze, aluminium bronze, brass, stainless ( several different grades ) and monel square drives here, the price is about 20% of the trad s/b slotted screw and if the guys dont have them and you can split a 20lb order with some friends they will make a run for you if its not in stock.
Must say that the locals dont have the tiny taper in the socket that the Robertson ones do which maks them not quite as good to use on a cordless but otherwise, any new work I do is all square drives.

JohnW


Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
John W, Square drive is fine for new stuff but, what the hell are you going to do with 30 or so year old US built boats of which there are just a 'few' out there and, loaded with slotted head screws?

When I began it was slotted drive then Reed and Prince or Phillips were the popular driver types.
So far I have not seen any square drive in use but I know some folks must be using them.
Slotted in Silly Bronze and SS and Monel are still made and as I posted so are the slotted drivers for them.

john welsford
06-25-2003, 06:15 PM
I have a double set of cabinetmakers screwdrivers with great big wooden handles, I also have a set of Marples straight bits for my brace and bit ( man you can get some torque on that) I have Phillips ( Stahlwille) Allen (Schneider) and a boxfull of other stuff.
I grind the tips of my straight screwdriver bit as required, about 2mm of parallel then the taper.
I have to use all the other stuff coz thats what comes with the boats and I also have a pile of slotted screws in stock, but much much much prefer the square drives.
Interestingly enough, we can get Silicon broze, aluminium bronze, brass, stainless ( several different grades ) and monel square drives here, the price is about 20% of the trad s/b slotted screw and if the guys dont have them and you can split a 20lb order with some friends they will make a run for you if its not in stock.
Must say that the locals dont have the tiny taper in the socket that the Robertson ones do which maks them not quite as good to use on a cordless but otherwise, any new work I do is all square drives.

JohnW


Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
John W, Square drive is fine for new stuff but, what the hell are you going to do with 30 or so year old US built boats of which there are just a 'few' out there and, loaded with slotted head screws?

When I began it was slotted drive then Reed and Prince or Phillips were the popular driver types.
So far I have not seen any square drive in use but I know some folks must be using them.
Slotted in Silly Bronze and SS and Monel are still made and as I posted so are the slotted drivers for them.

whb
06-25-2003, 08:33 PM
John W

Our American friends may correct me if I'm wrong but I believe American square drive screwdrivers and screws also do not have a taper.

The Robertson screwdriver and screws (Canadian) do have a taper.

I think this was in fact the basis of a Patent arguement.

Howard

whb
06-25-2003, 08:33 PM
John W

Our American friends may correct me if I'm wrong but I believe American square drive screwdrivers and screws also do not have a taper.

The Robertson screwdriver and screws (Canadian) do have a taper.

I think this was in fact the basis of a Patent arguement.

Howard

whb
06-25-2003, 08:33 PM
John W

Our American friends may correct me if I'm wrong but I believe American square drive screwdrivers and screws also do not have a taper.

The Robertson screwdriver and screws (Canadian) do have a taper.

I think this was in fact the basis of a Patent arguement.

Howard

john welsford
06-27-2003, 06:05 PM
I gathered that there was something like that in it, the Robertson screws and drivers are really good to use on a cordless driver, the screw does not wobble about while you are trying to hold a couple of slippery glue covered pieces together and stab it with a screw on the end of a 14v drill. At times like that the price is a secondary consideration and the genuine article is not too badly prices anyway.
Looking at my boxes, ( some of which go back 20 years, I tend to buy big when I see a bargain) some of the slotted silicone bronze screws that I bought years ago were several times the cost of the s.st. equivalents that I use now. Some things do get cheaper.
JohnW


Originally posted by whb:
John W

Our American friends may correct me if I'm wrong but I believe American square drive screwdrivers and screws also do not have a taper.

The Robertson screwdriver and screws (Canadian) do have a taper.

I think this was in fact the basis of a Patent arguement.

Howard

john welsford
06-27-2003, 06:05 PM
I gathered that there was something like that in it, the Robertson screws and drivers are really good to use on a cordless driver, the screw does not wobble about while you are trying to hold a couple of slippery glue covered pieces together and stab it with a screw on the end of a 14v drill. At times like that the price is a secondary consideration and the genuine article is not too badly prices anyway.
Looking at my boxes, ( some of which go back 20 years, I tend to buy big when I see a bargain) some of the slotted silicone bronze screws that I bought years ago were several times the cost of the s.st. equivalents that I use now. Some things do get cheaper.
JohnW


Originally posted by whb:
John W

Our American friends may correct me if I'm wrong but I believe American square drive screwdrivers and screws also do not have a taper.

The Robertson screwdriver and screws (Canadian) do have a taper.

I think this was in fact the basis of a Patent arguement.

Howard

john welsford
06-27-2003, 06:05 PM
I gathered that there was something like that in it, the Robertson screws and drivers are really good to use on a cordless driver, the screw does not wobble about while you are trying to hold a couple of slippery glue covered pieces together and stab it with a screw on the end of a 14v drill. At times like that the price is a secondary consideration and the genuine article is not too badly prices anyway.
Looking at my boxes, ( some of which go back 20 years, I tend to buy big when I see a bargain) some of the slotted silicone bronze screws that I bought years ago were several times the cost of the s.st. equivalents that I use now. Some things do get cheaper.
JohnW


Originally posted by whb:
John W

Our American friends may correct me if I'm wrong but I believe American square drive screwdrivers and screws also do not have a taper.

The Robertson screwdriver and screws (Canadian) do have a taper.

I think this was in fact the basis of a Patent arguement.

Howard

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-03-2003, 09:26 PM
As a result of a former post here, I consulted with Snap On tools as to the origin of their screwdrivers. Snap On screwdrivers are manufactured in Kenosha Wisconsin, almost across the street from the Harley factory. This plant does not manufacture for other brand names.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-03-2003, 09:26 PM
As a result of a former post here, I consulted with Snap On tools as to the origin of their screwdrivers. Snap On screwdrivers are manufactured in Kenosha Wisconsin, almost across the street from the Harley factory. This plant does not manufacture for other brand names.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-03-2003, 09:26 PM
As a result of a former post here, I consulted with Snap On tools as to the origin of their screwdrivers. Snap On screwdrivers are manufactured in Kenosha Wisconsin, almost across the street from the Harley factory. This plant does not manufacture for other brand names.