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MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 03:08 PM
Team Vestas Wind has grounded on a reef in the Indian Ocean. Crew intends to abandon boat at daybreak.

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/8082_Volvo-Ocean-Race-Team-Vestas-Wind-statement.html

seanz
11-29-2014, 03:16 PM
Bother, that's a long way from anywhere.......not an insanely long way from anywhere though so they should be OK.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 03:26 PM
They are at 16 degrees 48.17 minutes South, 059 degrees 34.51 minutes East. The rest of the fleet (minus SCA which was trailing) passed not far from this location but Vestas was just a little bit further east than the fleet.

You can watch the train wreck here: http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/virtualeye.html

Vestas is the blue boat icon. If the red slider button is all the way to the right drag it back about 1/4 inch. Click the start triangle and watch the Vestas icon turn hard to starboard and stop at exactly 1530 UTC.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 03:35 PM
They are on a well marked shoal but it consists of hundreds of tiny shoals with just two or three passages through it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Brandon

More specifically, they seem to have been caught by the evil gods of North Island,

Īlot du Nord (North Island) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/WMA_button2b.png/17px-WMA_button2b.png16°19′0.0″S 59°39′0.0″E (http://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=St._Brandon&params=16_19_0.0_S_59_39_0.0_E_region:MU_type:isle&title=%C3%8Elot+du+Nord)


North Island (Ilot du Nord) can be seen by zooming in on Albatross Island at the coordinates in blue above.

johnw
11-29-2014, 03:45 PM
Well, I'm guessing their navigator is out of the running for best navigator of the leg. Hope they get recovered without any problems.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 03:48 PM
Oddly, the tracks you could see and follow on the VOR website have been taken down.

I wonder if someone is trying CYA tactics in the wake of the grounding, or, more likely, the organizers don't want pirates to find Vestas which is a sitting duck until the crew gets off at daybreak tomorrow.

I know most of the pirate activity we hear about is based on the east coast of Africa but, have any of you heard about pirate activity based in either Mauritius or Reunion? Or Madagascar?

johnw
11-29-2014, 03:59 PM
Madagascar has not been a major center of piracy since the 1700s.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 04:01 PM
I followed the tracks of the lead boats as they passed by the shoal that Vestas hit. The leader, Mapfre, sailed about 30 miles west of the shoal, Abu Dhabi in second cleared it about 15 miles to the west, Brunel in third gave it about 10 miles then Dongfeng (in 4th) cut it close, sailing just 4 miles west of the shoal. Then came Alvimedica and Vestas, almost side by side but with Alvimedica to the west. Perhaps Vestas was paying too much attention to their closest competitor.

Correction--Alvimedica was trailing Vestas not abreast when Vestas hit the shoal. As we learn in the update below Almedica sailed right up to the scene and hovered nearby, offering assistance as needed.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 04:05 PM
Update--Team Alvimedica has suspended racing to stand by the stranded Vestas boat and crew:

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/8082_Volvo-Ocean-Race-Team-Vestas-Wind-statement.html

Hwyl
11-29-2014, 04:14 PM
With the spare rudders of both Allva and SCA and some judicious patching they should be able to limp to Abu Dhabi. Volvo needs this boat to make a decent race.

Posted Today, 04:04 PM
http://www.volvoocea...-statement.html (http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/8082_Volvo-Ocean-Race-Team-Vestas-Wind-statement.html)

UPDATE: 2030 UTC Team Alvimedica has now arrived at the site, is in radio contact with Team Vestas Wind and standing by to assist Team Vestas Wind, waiting for daylight. Race Control is in contact with Team Vestas Wind every hour. The situation is currently stable on board and the crew plans to remain on board until daylight. There is also contact established with a coastguard station on Isle de Sud, approximately 1.5 km from the boat, which has a RIB available. The plan is for this vessel to assist in abandoning the boat as soon as possible after daylight. Both rudders have been reported broken by the Team Vestas Wind crew. The team has also reported water ingress in the stern compartment. The Volvo Ocean 65 has watertight bulkheads in the bow and the stern. The remaining part of the boat is intact including the rig. We will update as soon as we have further information.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 04:16 PM
They seem ready and anxious to throw in the towel, though.

I suppose the keel structure could have taken unknown damage so perhaps that is why they'll take no chances.

Ian McColgin
11-29-2014, 04:23 PM
Glad all hands are safe. Hope the pollution is minimal.

Hwyl
11-29-2014, 04:25 PM
They are employees however and Vestas admires fortitude, they could spin this into a winning PR situation

johnw
11-29-2014, 04:40 PM
Do these boats have canting keels?

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 04:44 PM
Yes, canting keels, singular. Two rudders, however, and both have broken.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 04:47 PM
Even with rudder damage and no mention of the keel, I would think the keel hit first. It hangs down about 14 feet when centered, six or eight feet when fully canted. The rudders appear to be around 1.5 meters.

Even without a holing around the keel pin I would think the pin it hangs from has to be damaged.

johnw
11-29-2014, 04:47 PM
It strikes me a lot could go wrong with a canting keel in a grounding.

wizbang 13
11-29-2014, 04:48 PM
"Vestas was just a little bit further east than the fleet"
duh

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 04:52 PM
There is some weird geometry about the keel pin, which I don't fully grasp. I read it is angled up (or down?), not set horizontally. The purpose is to move the keel either forward (or aft?) when canted, to either raise (or lower?) the bow under conditions when the keel is fully canted.

johnw
11-29-2014, 05:00 PM
I googled, and it sounds like it's angled to produce some lift.

Old Dryfoot
11-29-2014, 05:03 PM
Silly question time.

Do the race organizers provide any rescue capability for an incident like this?

Hwyl
11-29-2014, 05:28 PM
Silly question time.

Do the race organizers provide any rescue capability for an incident like this?

The only powered boats that could keep up with their speed and range are nuclear powered.

Robbie 2
11-29-2014, 05:40 PM
This is the boat I was supporting so I am very saddened to hear of this.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 05:42 PM
Rescue is to be handled by Coast Guard of the Mauritius island group, in the morning at daybreak. It is said there is a small station 1.5 km from the grounded Vestas.

The latest Virtual Eye update shows both Alvimedica and SCA hovering near Vestas. Alvi is just to the west of Vestas while SCA is just a little east. The shoal that caught them must be very small.

Also, Vestas has deployed two life rafts, secured to the bow and let out a dozen or so meters. The stern is being beaten on "rocks" so I guess they are worried the damage might extend forward of the watertight stern bulkhead sometime during the night, while the crew or part of the crew is sleeping.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 05:46 PM
Silly question time.

Do the race organizers provide any rescue capability for an incident like this?

The organizers seem willing to move heaven and earth if life is threatened. In this case, based on crew reports, that does not appear to be the case.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 05:51 PM
I googled, and it sounds like it's angled to produce some lift.

That's what I had surmised but recently came across a reference to improving the bow's position--up or down--under extreme conditions. Maybe it does both.

Old Dryfoot
11-29-2014, 05:59 PM
The only powered boats that could keep up with their speed and range are nuclear powered.

Hadn't thought of it like that.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 08:32 PM
Video report from VOR CEO as well as reports from boat standing by and others: http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/insidetrack.html

SCA did not stop as it looked previously. They have sailed on leaving Alvimedica the duty of assisting if needed.

I had thought the grounding happened in late afternoon but apparently not. Comments from the second boat through suggest they were lucky to make it through during daylight hours but Vestas came a few hours later when it was dark.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 08:59 PM
Video of team member on Alvimedica communicating with Vestas right after the grounding, advising them that they had suspended racing and were standing by to assist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qTmChaeqpo

Hwyl
11-29-2014, 09:20 PM
They are saying that they are now in the liferafts and are secured on the reef (island).

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 10:12 PM
http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/8082_Team-Vestas-Wind-updates.html

Latest word is they were taken to dry land by the local Coast Guard folks and are awaiting VOR's rescue from the tiny atoll in the Indian Ocean.

Oh, and Alvimedica is back in the race.

MiddleAgesMan
11-29-2014, 10:19 PM
In one of the videos linked above the skipper of the Abu Dhabi team was very gracious in his explanation for how such an event could occur. He said the reefs and shoals of the area appear in some "layers" of the electronic charts but not in others. Vestas could have been unfortunate enough to have the wrong chart layer on their display in the hour or so leading up to the grounding.

Captain Intrepid
11-29-2014, 10:28 PM
In one of the videos linked above the skipper of the Abu Dhabi team was very gracious in his explanation for how such an event could occur. He said the reefs and shoals of the area appear in some "layers" of the electronic charts but not in others. Vestas could have been unfortunate enough to have the wrong chart layer on their display in the hour or so leading up to the grounding.

I would not be very gracious if a navigator working with me had dangerous features on the chart plotter that were nearby switched off. That wouldn't be unfortunate, it would be unthinkable.

S/V Laura Ellen
11-29-2014, 11:59 PM
How does Team Alvimedica get compensated for the hours that it spent coming to the assistance of Team Vestas Wind?

WszystekPoTrochu
11-30-2014, 06:55 AM
How does Team Alvimedica get compensated for the hours that it spent coming to the assistance of Team Vestas Wind?

I see placing them last or ex aequo second to last as only fair options.

slug
11-30-2014, 07:03 AM
They probably finish last, but dont get thrown out for using thier engine or breaking any race rules.

other competitors who stood by probably receive somekinda time compensation

many times competitors are compensated for rescues with a Sportsmanship prize....one of the most prestigious prizes in any event.

MiddleAgesMan
11-30-2014, 08:33 AM
A crew member from another boat said that stretch of the Indian Ocean appears devoid of islands or shoals. He said only if you zoom in on the electronic chart does the archipelago appear. Further, he wondered, 'why would someone zoom in if they didn't know there was something there?'

This sounds like a huge deficiency in electronic charting.

slug
11-30-2014, 08:57 AM
Naw...they made a mistake.

The charts are good. You only loose detail when you zoom way out. Even then the depth contour colours are visable. They knew they were in coastal water, you zoom in , not out.

Hwyl
11-30-2014, 09:00 AM
A crew member from another boat said that stretch of the Indian Ocean appears devoid of islands or shoals. He said only if you zoom in on the electronic chart does the archipelago appear. Further, he wondered, 'why would someone zoom in if they didn't know there was something there?'

This sounds like a huge deficiency in electronic charting.

It shows up in my world atlas. The only map of the Indian Ocean covers an area from Gibraltar to Sydney.

slug
11-30-2014, 09:12 AM
They ran aground 0ne mile away from a Coast Gaurd Station. Im certain that the coastal water in the region is well charted and perhaps even lite or beaconed.

They will have to explain what happened.....operator or equipment failure.

Donn
11-30-2014, 10:01 AM
Cargados Carajos Shoals, AKA St. Brandons Atoll, is one of the most dreamed of fishing destinations on earth.

Link (http://www.slipstreamangling.com/index.php/blog/hottest_big_bonefish_destination_on_the_planet/)

http://www.slipstreamangling.com/images/uploads/C2.jpg

http://flyshop.com/travel/saltwater/img/reservations/stbrandons.jpg

https://flycastaway.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/img_0788.jpg?w=450&h=338

Paul Pless
11-30-2014, 10:13 AM
That is one hell of a bonefish!

slug
11-30-2014, 10:14 AM
Evidently this is a chartplotter screen snapshot from the yacht Alvimedica


http://s10.postimg.org/8rylt396x/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
subir gif (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

Donn
11-30-2014, 10:46 AM
That is one hell of a bonefish!

Yeah, the place is Bonefish heaven. Casting to schools consisting of hundreds of 15#+ fish in 8" of water.

The trip is pretty cool. You fly into Mauritius, and go aboard MY Gryphon:


http://www.yellowdogflyfishing.com/sites/default/files/trips/yellow-dog-flyfishing-adventures-indian-ocean-flats-gyrphon-permit-trevally-st.-brandon%27s-atoll-34.jpg

96' of luxurious liveaboard. You motor for 24 hours to the atoll, and then live on the Gryphon while you're there.

9 nights and 6.5 days for ~$12,000, double occupancy.

Brian Palmer
11-30-2014, 03:29 PM
I'll bet they will be able to get it back in the race for legs 3 or 4, if they can recover it before it is too badly damaged.

Brian

Hwyl
11-30-2014, 06:11 PM
They stove in the starboard side and the stern broke off. I think the boat is toast.



Interestingly, the archipeligo was featured in a Patrick O'Brian novel


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/MauritiusCommand.jpg

The last 3/4 of this video is an interview with the skipper.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd2T5JS0NkA

WszystekPoTrochu
11-30-2014, 06:55 PM
A shame.

Robbie 2
11-30-2014, 07:33 PM
They put in Gates as No Go areas for Ice and Pirates...............you would have thought they would have done the same for a known reef system.
Why were they sailing right through that whole reef system area?

Breakaway
11-30-2014, 07:47 PM
I would not be very gracious if a navigator working with me had dangerous features on the chart plotter that were nearby switched off. That wouldn't be unfortunate, it would be unthinkable.

Agreed. Prudent navigation--transoceanic, or just pottering down-channel in fog--requires knowing dangers etc in advance. "Real time" only is foolish.

Kevin

John B
11-30-2014, 08:41 PM
Putting the waypoint on the object you want to turn around and then sailing right to it is a classic error.
How many boats have foundered when sailing to a light for example.. endless.

slug
12-01-2014, 12:55 AM
I put waypoints directly on top of dangers. It gives the helsman a constant range and bearing to the danger plus cross track error.

For low lying or indistinct objects the waypoint flashed on the radar screen allows the navigator to identify an intermittent echo on the screen as the object searched for , as opposed to sea clutter.

Those boats are using B&G plotters. I dont know how many screens they have. Perhaps only one and they were using the screen for tactical data , not navigation data when they blundered onto the reef.

You might never know. All this cooperate sailing is ruled by lawyers

The Bigfella
12-01-2014, 01:38 AM
http://dlo9dp2r69urx.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/windless.jpg

Gerarddm
12-01-2014, 01:41 AM
Wonder how the hulk recovery will be handled, and who pays?

Such a drag for them, too bad.

Captain Intrepid
12-01-2014, 03:07 AM
Agreed. Prudent navigation--transoceanic, or just pottering down-channel in fog--requires knowing dangers etc in advance. "Real time" only is foolish.

Kevin
Yup It's important enough to be right there, plain as day in the STCW Code.

5 Prior to each voyage, the master of every ship shall ensure that the intended route fromthe port of departure to the first port of call is planned using adequate and appropriate charts andother nautical publications necessary for the intended voyage, containing accurate, complete and up-to-date information regarding those navigational limitations and hazards which are of apermanent or predictable nature and which are relevant to the safe navigation of the ship.

varadero
12-01-2014, 04:15 AM
I do not think that it was down to your standard navigational error. These boats are match racing all the time, minutes are important, 2 miles standing on before tacking costs 2 miles of additional distance run, and minutes extra on the race track. Also believe it or not, these remote islands may be inaccurately portrayed on the charts, even 300 meters could have made the difference between aground and clear water. I think Vestas was trying to pass too close to the Shoal in the dark and trusting the electronic Data without a reasonable error allowance. One of my old masters tought me, " You do not need to know where the reef is, you need to know where it isn't."

MiddleAgesMan
12-01-2014, 05:28 PM
Aerial view of wreck:

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/8098_A-picture-to-paint-a-1-000-words.html

You can see she's washed across the reef (she approached from deep water which is to the right side of the picture). It appears the stern section has not left the wreck but it may be hanging on by a thread.

MiddleAgesMan
12-01-2014, 06:34 PM
They are saying that they are now in the liferafts and are secured on the reef (island).

In one of the videos posted recently the skipper of Vestas explains what prompted the move to the rafts. He had been determined to avoid a night time abandon ship excersize but changed his mind when "the bulb" broke off. He said without that weight the boat was suddenly heeled way over, floating high and bouncing. At that point taking to the rafts, even in the dark, seemed the better option.

BTW, I suspect most of the keel broke off, not just the bulb.

WszystekPoTrochu
12-01-2014, 07:32 PM
Had most of the keel broke off, the boat would have been far more straight I think

GWB
12-01-2014, 07:45 PM
Amazing that the mast is still up considering the pounding was bad enough to break the stern off the boat

The Bigfella
12-01-2014, 09:00 PM
Here's that image from the air

https://scontent-b-nrt.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/10480592_10153411755363345_6894869770653338630_o.j pg

Brian Palmer
12-01-2014, 09:18 PM
I don't see the stern broken off from the photo. The big blue thing to port is the top of the main sail.

The satellite communication gear is still visible in place on the stern.

Brian

GWB
12-01-2014, 09:23 PM
Good eye

johnw
12-01-2014, 09:27 PM
A bit of fill and anti-foul will sort it out.

Seriously, given how hard it will be to recover, and how far it is from anywhere that works on boats like this, is it worth while to attempt salvage?

S/V Laura Ellen
12-01-2014, 11:13 PM
A bit of fill and anti-foul will sort it out.

Seriously, given how hard it will be to recover, and how far it is from anywhere that works on boats like this, is it worth while to attempt salvage?

It would be really bad press to leave what's left of the boat where she lies.
It isn't so much a salvage they need to do, but more of a clean up. Probably a total write off.

MiddleAgesMan
12-01-2014, 11:48 PM
If crew reports are to be believed the Vestas crew has spent a good portion of daylight hours removing stuff from the wreck. They specifically mentioned ropes and some electronics and I believe they included diesel fuel. Obviously they didn't bother with the mainsail.

John B
12-02-2014, 03:40 PM
I spose the next time that watch captain says he wants to put a reef in the boat ,people will jump to it.

slug
12-03-2014, 01:21 AM
So ? No explanation for why the boat T boned the reef ?

must be Lawyers

MiddleAgesMan
12-03-2014, 11:00 AM
Word from the website is there was an error made--that's right, one error. They are being close-mouthed about that error but promised to reveal it when the crew has been returned to civilization...within the week.

WszystekPoTrochu
12-03-2014, 11:24 AM
While the situation is not what I'd like to see, since the crew is safe I'll state one thing: it is comforting to see that they race in the most sporty way, both pushing it to the limits (or beyond) and still keeping fair play attitude.

MiddleAgesMan
12-03-2014, 01:41 PM
The Vestas skipper speaks:
"It’s clear that human error is responsible for the shipwreck, there’s no avoiding that. And as skipper, I take ultimate responsibility."


What's also clear is that we will have to wait a little more before they tell the world about the mysterious error.

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/8107_A-tale-of-escape.html (http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/8107_A-tale-of-escape.html)

slug
12-03-2014, 01:53 PM
The sailors dont speak...they repeat pre approved sound bites formulated by the Volvo organizers and sponsors.

the whole Volvo event is very weak...there is no expert commentator calling the plays, exposing strategy, commenting on design, behind the scenes skulduggery ....

Worse than the Americas up.

John B
12-03-2014, 03:29 PM
Pretty obvious isn't it , slug and others were on the money . Plotter zoomed out.

You know , you can say things to yourself like ' there but for the grace of God go I' but really this is inexcusable. These guys are professionals sailing a 12 million dollar boat getting paid millions to do it. Why you wouldn't drag out a chart or look at google earth to identify the hazards on on a projected passage is , unbelievable, bizarre even.

Hwyl
12-03-2014, 04:44 PM
Apparently the exclusion zone that formerly included St Brendans Isle was moved when the tropical cyclone threatened. That mitigates the pre planning error a little bit.

Glad to see Will Oxley does it right..

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/vor/yandy119807.jpg

They also have redundant screens in the Nav station as well as "hand helds".

https://fbcdn-vthumb-a.akamaihd.net/hvthumb-ak-xpa1/v/t15.0-10/s600x600/10821414_838434362846629_838428976180501_55994_566 _b.jpg?oh=0112c9df6e309ba543f310649e2da91d&oe=551C452F&__gda__=1426304533_f0fc4aeefdaeda72c623e283784f850 5

Furthermore Volvo headquarters get position updates every few minutes, after moving the exclusion zone, they could have positioned someone at the tracker and that someone could have rung up the Sat phone and said "uhh chaps you appear to be on a collision course with an iisland".

johnw
12-03-2014, 05:14 PM
Wouldn't such advice constitute outside aid? I think they might have bent a rule in this case to avoid disaster.

John B
12-03-2014, 05:28 PM
Do you know this reef is 25 miles long! Twenty Five NM.

The Dodo came from Mauritius.

The Bigfella
12-03-2014, 06:11 PM
Silly idiots. If they read WBF they would have known about the minesweeper that did the same thing in the Philippines.

Hwyl
12-03-2014, 06:41 PM
Chris Nicholson is from Lake Macquarie NSW, do we have any forumites from there.

The Bigfella
12-03-2014, 07:39 PM
Chris Nicholson is from Lake Macquarie NSW, do we have any forumites from there.

I've raced there... but many moons ago. I don't recall any forumites from there (it is about 100km north of several of us). Chris is well known in Oz sailing circles though.

MiddleAgesMan
12-03-2014, 10:15 PM
Do you know this reef is 25 miles long! Twenty Five NM.

The Dodo came from Mauritius.

Truedat. But it's oriented south to north, not straight but sort of like a boomerang. Hell, maybe that's why it took an Aussie skipper to find the thing. ;)

The target presented to boats on a northerly course would be much less than 25 miles.

MiddleAgesMan
12-03-2014, 10:21 PM
This should link to a gallery with 26 photos of the crew and gear offloaded in Mauritius. Turns out the salvaged gear is quite a haul, filling a large flat truck bed.

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/photo/238_Team-Vestas-Wind-grounded-near-Mauritius.html

Gerarddm
12-04-2014, 02:27 AM
Wow, they really got a lot off her.

Hwyl
12-04-2014, 12:45 PM
Pass the duct tape.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4BubyBIAAI_5H2.png

WszystekPoTrochu
12-04-2014, 01:05 PM
Borrowing a spare rudder from SCA and Alvimedica might have been not enough

MiddleAgesMan
12-04-2014, 01:14 PM
Wow! This should take you to a new video taken aboard Vestas at the moment of impact:

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/insidetrack.html

S/V Laura Ellen
12-04-2014, 01:17 PM
Pass the duct tape.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4BubyBIAAI_5H2.png

They did say it was taking on some water!

Paul Pless
12-04-2014, 01:18 PM
Pass the duct tape.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4BubyBIAAI_5H2.png
That will buff out. . .

Rich Jones
12-04-2014, 01:32 PM
Pass the duct tape.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4BubyBIAAI_5H2.png I think I spotted the problem. The back fell off.

Rich Jones
12-04-2014, 01:33 PM
Wow! This should take you to a new video taken aboard Vestas at the moment of impact:

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/insidetrack.html That had to be terrifying!

Hwyl
12-04-2014, 02:06 PM
Video in more accessible format (warning, lots of very appropriate foul language,, if you don't want to hear the ""f" word, turn your sound off)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INdGPE7_bUY#t=337

John B
12-04-2014, 03:35 PM
Chilling. Next to losing someone , that would be the worst experience.
That reef is exactly what Minerva reef looks like incidentally, brownish coral with chunks stewn around in places , some dry , some you wade in at low tide.

MiddleAgesMan
12-04-2014, 05:57 PM
I was surprised to see no one crashing forward at impact. I guess that keel and bulb cushioned the impact somewhat, being a long lever arm with some degree of flexibility.

It was interesting to see the skipper accepting responsibility then pointing out a skipper can't be everywhere at once and must rely on others he trusts.

WszystekPoTrochu
12-04-2014, 07:03 PM
It was interesting to see the skipper accepting responsibility then pointing out a skipper can't be everywhere at once and must rely on others he trusts.
That's basically "I take responsibility, but it's not my fault" babble.

Hwyl
12-04-2014, 09:39 PM
In this edited video, if you look at 1:14, you see the navigator zooming out on the chartplotter until the island disappears. Piqued the old relevancy//cynical thinking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gmnWEZCEiw

MiddleAgesMan
12-05-2014, 05:08 PM
How does Team Alvimedica get compensated for the hours that it spent coming to the assistance of Team Vestas Wind?

Here is a pretty clear explanation of the possible redress awarded.

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/8119_A-fair-treatment.html

I was surprised to learn there is no redress offered unless the officials decide Alvimedica lost at least one position due to their 9 1/2 hour period of standing by.

MiddleAgesMan
12-05-2014, 07:11 PM
This video includes much more of that erie nighttime video of the boat striking the reef. Just before impact someone can be heard to announce "we're crossing a shoal....40 meters deep" or something along those lines. This voice had no foreign accent so I'm assuming it was not the Dutch navigator.

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/video/31636_Inside-Track-Team-Vestas-Wind-Special.html

MiddleAgesMan
12-08-2014, 12:52 PM
The Vestas navigator told the skipper that depths in the area of the wreck reached a minimum of 40 meters. In other words, their passage would be unimpeded, but possibly affected by depth induced current changes.

“In hindsight we would’ve continued to zoom in on the area much more, on the electronic charts. Not doing so is the big mistake that I made, but the good thing is that we didn’t make any more.”

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/8130_We-ll-be-back.html

varadero
12-08-2014, 03:00 PM
From Yachting World.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/uncategorized/volvo-ocean-race-press-conference-team-vestas-wind-shipwreck-leaves-big-questions-unanswered/

MiddleAgesMan
12-08-2014, 03:51 PM
From the Yachting World link above:

"As I speculated last week, most likely Verbraak did not zoom in closely enough along his track. He therefore failed to see that the shoal patches shown at a small scale resolved into large drying reefs when zoomed to a larger scale.

"This is a well known electronic charting flaw, an anomaly encountered quite frequently, especially in poorly charted areas and well known to ocean navigators, professional and amateur. The huge difference in appearance of this very reef at different zoom levels on some charts is shown in my earlier blog here (http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/volvo-ocean-race-yacht-bristling-technology-hit-well-known-reef/).

"Another point of interest is that the reef is not in the position charted...."



I followed the tracks of the lead boats as they passed by the shoal that Vestas hit. The leader, Mapfre, sailed about 30 miles west of the shoal, Abu Dhabi in second cleared it about 15 miles to the west, Brunel in third gave it about 10 miles then Dongfeng (in 4th) cut it close, sailing just 4 miles west of the shoal....

The article goes on to explain the reef is actually about 1/2 mile further west than shown on the electronic charts which means Dongfeng was even closer
than the very rough estimate I made above, 4 miles. You would think Dongfeng saw some very shallow water passing the southern tip of the reef which begs the question, if you were on Dongfeng would you not feel compelled to give a shout out to the other boats about such shallow soundings. Surely they were not transiting the area without an active depth sounder...?

John B
12-08-2014, 04:09 PM
If I can go to google earth and position myself virtually a kilometre high and still see something that fills a rectangle 25 nautical miles x 12 miles , a giant #9, then their software should have seen it zoomed out too. The only time I've had 'the zoom issue" is with a rock that is a couple of metres square. This is ludicrous. Even if it is out of position by 1/2 a mile, its irrelevant , they T boned the thing and it would have extended out of sight in daylight from sea level.

I don't think the other teams would report the shoals unless they knew someone was sailing into danger , naturally they would assume that the professionals on Vestas would know not to hit something twice as long as my city is wide.

MiddleAgesMan
12-08-2014, 04:21 PM
We've seen two possible scenarios which might have saved the Vestas boat. Ian Walker of Abu Dhabi commented to his crew that it sure would be easy to hit that shoal if transiting at night. And Dongfeng sailed less than 4 miles from the southern tip of the reef which is apparently awash. If someone on either of those boats had broadcast a general message, "be very careful...etc." the skipper or navigator on Vestas might have been prompted to take a second look at the chart, zoomed in!

I certainly wouldn't expect to benefit from a general message such as "hey, guys, we've got good wind over here to the west" but I don't understand how someone such as Walker, in recognizing and voicing concerns about a potential for danger, wouldn't feel compelled to share his concerns with the rest of the fleet.

As it happened the only things lost were property but I wonder if Walker would have been so revealing of his concerns if someone on Vestas had been seriously injured or killed....

John B
12-08-2014, 04:43 PM
Well, two weeks ago I turned my boat left and ran within 2 boat lengths of an unmarked rock because a guy in a 50 ft ketch was steaming at it at 7 knots ( or more). I herded him off it. But that was underwater, unmarked on charts and only about the size of a single car garage. So while I sympathise with the thought of it ,would do it , do do it and have done it, I just don't believe that anyone would find it conceivable that Vestas would drive into something that big, its not as if they only just hit it or anything. Its a T bone and its freakin enormous.

WszystekPoTrochu
12-08-2014, 05:19 PM
People make unbelievable mistakes put under enough stress, I imagine leaving one last zoom level something very prone to happen after weeks on the sea and under constant pressure.

The Bigfella
12-08-2014, 06:30 PM
Well, two weeks ago I turned my boat left and ran within 2 boat lengths of an unmarked rock because a guy in a 50 ft ketch was steaming at it at 7 knots ( or more). I herded him off it. But that was underwater, unmarked on charts and only about the size of a single car garage. So while I sympathise with the thought of it ,would do it , do do it and have done it, I just don't believe that anyone would find it conceivable that Vestas would drive into something that big, its not as if they only just hit it or anything. Its a T bone and its freakin enormous.

Should'a had high beam on, eh?

John B
12-08-2014, 06:56 PM
Should'a had high beam on, eh?


Nope , 2 or 3 in the afternoon., I played border collie with my boat until he diverted 40 degrees. He was grateful.

John B
12-08-2014, 07:08 PM
At first I thought it might be a waypoint error, and then I subscribed to the zoom theory because I've done it myself with a small rock.

Now , I think they just did not know that it was there because no one zooms out as far as this , a near world view at 2.2 kilometres above the earth , where dead centre you can still clearly see the St Brandon shoals perched on a ridge, some which becomes islands or reefs. Well, maybe you would zoom out that far for a strategic overview, but seeing the ridge/ seamount contours, you would definitely want to be in closer than that, who wouldn't.... Either that or their software was bad. Ludicrous.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/mauritius.jpg (http://s227.photobucket.com/user/Waione_photos/media/mauritius.jpg.html)
.

Gerarddm
12-08-2014, 07:32 PM
They say they didn't zoom:

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2014/12/08/listen-team-vestas-wind-provide-update-volvo-ocean-race-accident/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

MiddleAgesMan
12-08-2014, 08:38 PM
As someone suggested, a last minute race course change contributed to the error.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2014/12/05/wouter-verbraak-team-vestas-wind-went-aground-volvo-ocean-race/

Hwyl
12-09-2014, 12:43 PM
A good analysis of echarts with reference to this blunder.

http://davidburchnavigation.blogspot.com/2014/12/dont-blame-echarts-for-anything.html

MiddleAgesMan
12-09-2014, 01:10 PM
From Gareth's link above: "...
there is no way to watch your vessel approach this reef on a view that actually shows the reef."

It is truly a deficiency of the electronic charts, an easy one to fall prey to. But, the author goes on to say it is not the fault of the charts, the modern navigator's job includes knowing your route and the deficiencies of the charts and finding a solution to safely navigate an area.

slug
12-09-2014, 02:31 PM
Electronic chats are riddled with errors...these errors are always " on soundings" . And off the shipping lane, Errors that effect shipping are rapidly identified and fixed...millions of others are not.

A typical error is in the colour contouring. Navigators navigate by colour, not numbers.

notice the " 3.6 " that is NW of Babina Guzica. This error is typical and there are hundreds of them. A navigator knows this and always proceeds with caution when on soundings.

This is a professional Transas Marine chart...


http://s3.postimg.org/ejafbe27n/image.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/otcuams33/full/)
subir imagen (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

John B
12-09-2014, 03:23 PM
I don't have time to research it right now but I truly do not understand this remark



there is no way to watch your vessel approach this reef on a view that actually shows the reef."


One of the primary advantage of any chart plotter or GPS system is that it places the boat on the chart.

like..

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/Cruise%202013/IMG_2750_19.jpg (http://s227.photobucket.com/user/Waione_photos/media/Cruise%202013/IMG_2750_19.jpg.html)

.Incidentally , for this epic photo of my chartplotter, I shifted the setting of the presentation from its usual one on passage where the boat is represented near the bottom or one side of the chart ( depending on if it is on North up or course up). That's so that you see what is in front of the boat, always nice to know.

slug
12-09-2014, 03:29 PM
The statement sounds funny.

If the boat was moving at 200 knots there could be problems getting the boat and the reef on the same chart at small scale

I suspect that the wrecked boat was sailing Zoomed out for tactical reasons...watching the weather , tracking competitors. ....and didnt notice the reef ...only the colour that indicated 40 meters .

John B
12-09-2014, 03:32 PM
God , even this ridiculously bad chart of south minerva reef was good enough not to hit it.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/Fiji%20trip%2012/IMG_1661_14.jpg (http://s227.photobucket.com/user/Waione_photos/media/Fiji%20trip%2012/IMG_1661_14.jpg.html)

Gosh , look at that , a waypoint off the reef, a course to miss it and a boat position relative to the coral. Big science.

slug
12-09-2014, 03:33 PM
All the chart plotters that ive used allow you to explore any area, without the boat on the screne.

Once you have finished scrolling and exploring you press the button...navigate..... and the boat returns to screen center , on the corect chart , at the correct chart resolution.

MiddleAgesMan
12-09-2014, 03:43 PM
As I understand it, the age of the chart that was digitized for this portion of the Indian Ocean, coupled with the decisions someone made about zoom levels, resulted in this rare anomaly: the shoals appear as mere shoals on next to the last zoom level as well as previous (zoomed out) levels; you have to zoom all the way in for the land and reef features to be displayed.

This is apparently rare or maybe even unique for electronic charts.

John B
12-09-2014, 03:45 PM
All the chart plotters that ive used allow you to explore any area, without the boat on the screne.

Once you have finished scrolling and exploring you press the button...navigate..... and the boat returns to screen center , on the corect chart , at the correct chart resolution.

of course , that's just the ship V cursor setting isn't it Slug. well ... thats what it is on the ones I've used( not many)

The Bigfella
12-09-2014, 03:45 PM
The answer would appear to be a split screen or dual screen. One zoomed in, one zoomed out, but even then, it presumes an eye on the zoomed in screen at all times. Travelling at 19 knots, it doesn't take long to cover the distance on that screen above.

John B
12-09-2014, 03:47 PM
As I understand it, the age of the chart that was digitized for this portion of the Indian Ocean, coupled with the decisions someone made about zoom levels, resulted in this rare anomaly: the shoals appear as mere shoals on next to the last zoom level as well as previous (zoomed out) levels; you have to zoom all the way in for the land and reef features to be displayed.

This is apparently rare or maybe even unique for electronic charts.
Interesting , thanks O medieval one , I haven't read any other threads on it , just the front page on SA yesterday.

slug
12-09-2014, 03:52 PM
The answer would appear to be a split screen or dual screen. One zoomed in, one zoomed out, but even then, it presumes an eye on the zoomed in screen at all times. Travelling at 19 knots, it doesn't take long to cover the distance on that screen above.


I dont know the chart plotter used on the shipwreck. Many plotters allow you to locate your position on centre of the screen or on the edge...looking forward.

A high speed boat or when navigating close in , would use look forward mode.

slug
12-09-2014, 04:05 PM
Brookes and Gatehouse supplied all the nav gear.
Im not familiar with the gear or the chart system..i think its CMap

The Bigfella
12-09-2014, 04:06 PM
It would be interesting to know the type, make and model(s) of the nag equipment used, not that it excludes operator error. Nevertheless I suspect that that information (apart for it is a Garmin) may not be released for public consumption/consideration.

I have been far from impressed with Garmin (and their abysmal "support" staff) over the last couple of years... but that's in relation to their land based systems. One of the defects was life threatening... but that's another topic.

Hwyl
12-09-2014, 04:41 PM
Brookes and Gatehouse supplied all the nav gear.
Im not familiar with the gear or the chart system..i think its CMap

Yes, it's C,Map. They had three screens in the nav station, as well as a small screen at the helm; so one of them could be zoomed in. They were using weather routing software, which gives you an optimal course (or courses) based on the weather report and the speed of the boat at various angles and wind strength (polars).

I find it hard to conceive that they did not look at a paper chart to get the big picture. I need to do that because I find it hard to do on the plotter, that may be a function of my age. The rules dictated that they a to have paper charts on board.

It will be interesting to know if crewmembers had their smartphones with them, I've slways had one crew who navigates independently of the ships systems, which has it's pro's and cons.

WszystekPoTrochu
12-09-2014, 06:47 PM
The answer would appear to be a split screen or dual screen. One zoomed in, one zoomed out, but even then, it presumes an eye on the zoomed in screen at all times. Travelling at 19 knots, it doesn't take long to cover the distance on that screen above.

Good idea, except they would still hit a reef: it was charted off its real position.

MiddleAgesMan
12-09-2014, 10:01 PM
It is off by only 0.46 mile, the chart showing it slightly east of true position. This was spelled out in one of the many links above.

slug
12-10-2014, 12:42 AM
Many charts were created with datum that is not the same as the datum used by modern chart plotters. You overcome it by navigating by eye when in coastal waters.

Gerarddm
12-10-2014, 01:24 AM
You overcome it by navigating by eye when in coastal waters.

In the dark, as they were?

slug
12-10-2014, 02:37 AM
Those boats carry a complete , sophisticated, all weather navigation package. Many sensors. Radar, depth, human eyes, night vision binos........

They knew that they were on shelf waters, they knew that challenges were ahead...when in doubt you use all sensors..including common sense.

varadero
12-10-2014, 02:52 AM
And a little sea room.

Hwyl
12-22-2014, 02:06 PM
Well they got it off the reef and the rumour is they are rebuilding it. My inner cynic says the the rebuilt boat will only contain the bit of the hull with the official number and some interior mouldings.

John B
12-22-2014, 02:26 PM
Seeing as the whole thing was a just a misunderstanding anyway, Skipper said 'time to put a reef in' and they did.
I guess now its time to shake it out.

slug
12-22-2014, 02:42 PM
Bit of putty and paint then give it to a yacht broker to sell.........

MiddleAgesMan
12-22-2014, 03:03 PM
Unless I missed it there was no mention of the keel bulb so I guess they left it behind. But maybe not. Maybe they just ran the word count to the max.

Also, I found it interesting that the local guys were supplying oxygen (for cutting the keel off). This suggests the keel blade was steel, not carbon fiber as I had assumed.

Thanks for the heads up, Gareth. I've gotten out of the habit of visiting the VOR website lately.

slug
12-22-2014, 03:24 PM
Yah, those boats have steel keels

MiddleAgesMan
12-29-2014, 01:52 PM
Here's a short video showing the salvage operation including craning her onto a big container ship.

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/video/33041_Recovery.html

Hwyl
03-09-2015, 07:53 PM
this report left me breathless.

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/static/assets/content_v2/media/files/m36616_team-vestas-wind-inquiry-report-released-on-9-march-2015.pdf

John B
03-09-2015, 10:32 PM
I read page 32. Basically it said that they didn't know it was there and that they should have.

Gerarddm
03-10-2015, 02:37 AM
Now you know why they fired the navigator.

PhaseLockedLoop
03-10-2015, 12:24 PM
I read page 32. Basically it said that they didn't know it was there and that they should have.

Yes, well, didn't we know that as soon as the accident was reported? Of course they didn't know it was there, and of course they should have known.

John B
03-10-2015, 06:52 PM
Yes . It begs the question , how is it possible to not know that something 25 miles wide and hard is there. Coastal sailors like me spend all their time micro checking for hidden rocks and shoals. If I hit something ,which is entirely possible , I might go a bit slack and need a reminder refresher from time to time, its likely to be something between say 1 and 100 metres wide. probably down the low end of the spectrum in reality .. say 3 or 5 metres and I can't see it or have cut a corner through complacency.

25 miles is inexcusable. Its ludicrous and its just as much the fault of the skipper as anyone else on board.
ludicrous , that no one looked at a chart or google earth and tracked the seamounts.

Now we have the next question . Cyclone Pam is bringing the hardest weather we have seen this year, its cyclonic , it is dangerous in the extreme and its coming and will be here on sunday when the fleet is due to leave.
Will they send the Volvo fleet off into that? or will they demonstrate seamanship and delay it for 2 days?
It'll be interesting to see.

Hwyl
03-11-2015, 08:27 AM
It is ridiculous that they only had one license for c-maps, and that their race routing software could not handle c-maps on the more detailed zoom.

Yes they all screwed up.

slug
03-11-2015, 09:15 AM
Yes . It begs the question , how is it possible to not know that something 25 miles wide and hard is there. Coastal sailors like me spend all their time micro checking for hidden rocks and shoals. If I hit something ,which is entirely possible , I might go a bit slack and need a reminder refresher from time to time, its likely to be something between say 1 and 100 metres wide. probably down the low end of the spectrum in reality .. say 3 or 5 metres and I can't see it or have cut a corner through complacency.

25 miles is inexcusable. Its ludicrous and its just as much the fault of the skipper as anyone else on board.
ludicrous , that no one looked at a chart or google earth and tracked the seamounts.

Now we have the next question . Cyclone Pam is bringing the hardest weather we have seen this year, its cyclonic , it is dangerous in the extreme and its coming and will be here on sunday when the fleet is due to leave.
Will they send the Volvo fleet off into that? or will they demonstrate seamanship and delay it for 2 days?
It'll be interesting to see.


They were not navigating , they were racing. In a race the navigator furiously monitors the speed data being sent by all competiors and constantly updates the crew on deck of thier speed and course against the competition.

Unfortunate.

sensors like radar could have warned, but I doubt that they would use power hungry radar unless they needed it due to visabilty.

johnw
03-16-2015, 04:18 PM
Looks like the cyclone has delayed the start. Good call.