re: buying 1964 Cheoy Lee Robb 35

[ehamilton]

Hi, My name is Edward Hamilton. I've been reading this great forum for a number of year. I'm currently trying to realize my dream and purchase a wooden boat. The one I'm interested in is a Cheoy Lee Robb 35 built in 1964 Teak over Ipol with bronze and copper fastners. The engine is an Isuzu Pisce 3 40hp 3 cylinder. The boat can be view at: http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/Sale/Tigre.htm

I did an inspection this weekend and found the following:

1. Plywood rot (delamination) under deck above V-berth
2. Worse plywood damage around cockpit area.
3. There are a number of steel frames near toilet that had various degrees of rust.
4. Near the engine I found a number of what looked like cracked ribs.
5. Also there is alot of rust on engine (maybe the deck over engine is leaking).
6. A few of the thru hulls seem extensively corroded.
7. Extensive rot of hatch (but not the hatch frame) over V-berth
8. Some rot (discoloration) of teak below hatch at base of V-berth and floor.

Here is a link to the photos I took:

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ehamilton1965/lst?.dir=/CheoyLeeRobb35&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/

I am asking for help from the great people in the forum, with purchasing this boat. The currently asking price is $22,000.

[Scott Rosen]

Congratulations.

What you describe seems about normal for a 1964 boat with plywood decks (teak over ply?). I assume she hasn't had any major work done, ever. Nothing you describe sounds fatal. But it will take a fair amount of work or money or both to do the repair work.

You should have a good surveyor with experience in wooden boats do a complete buyer's out of water buyer's survey, just to make sure you haven't missed anything major. Also, take her for a sail in a stiff breeze and see if the garboards leak.

As far as price goes, you could certainly negotiate it down a few thousand dollars. But be advised that in the scheme of things for this boat, a few thousand dollars will be but a drop in the bucket once you start on the repair work.

If you are planning to hire someone to do the work, then you could easily spend another $50 to 60,000, probably more, maybe a lot more. The deck and cockpit alone could run you $25,000 to $30,000. The iron in the bilge could also have created some major problems in the surrounding wood. You will need to sister some frames, or maybe even replace them.

I certainly wouldn't want to discourage you, but from the sound of things, I would guess you are looking at $100,000 project if you want to get her to Bristol condition, including sails, engine, systems, etc. If you are going to do the work yourself, it may take you a couple of years, or more.

Good luck.

[Alan D. Hyde]

You can, of course, trade time and sweat for dollars.

But, it WILL take time. And sweat.

Nothing wrong with that, in fact it's noble, IF you know what you'll be up against and can pull it off.

Alan

[ 09-29-2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[ehamilton]

Hi guys, thanks for you replies. Were you able to view the picture links. Also were they helpful in getting an idea of condition of boat. I would greatly appreciate comments on particular pictures. Scott, your suggestion that the repair of this boat could cost between $50,000 to $100,000 is very scary to me. To be honest I'm not the type of person who can afford that. How much would I be looking at if I was willing to do the work myself. My skill level is practically nill, however I've been ready your forum and many books on the subject for years. I'm also building a cosine wherry in my garage with which I'm at the planking stage. Also, if I were to embark on this journey could I count on the help of this forum to guide me through the process. I would need alot of help. However maybe some of you would get some vicarious pleasure from helping a newbe restore a boat.

[Thad]

The floors are iron not steel andprobably have lots of life still in them. Leaks around the companionway and cockpit are common in this boat and it is the plywood below that suffers, but that is not critical for the boat. The cockpit probably needs to be replaced and maybe the deck too. The cracked ribs should be repaired/replaced, but they will be in the turn of the bilge where you can get at them without taking the boat apart. Hatch building is fun albeit complex and there are workable inexpensive temporary hatches that you can make. These boats have problems, but being teak and ipol their structures are likely to survive well the problems. And, they sail beautifully. The deck would be the biggest expense no matter how it is done and the job, with the cockpit, that probably need attention right away. These boats are not valued as high as they deserve, but building this boat new would cost upwards of two hundred thousand dollars if you could get the wood.

[L.W. Baxter]

Edward-- I don't have any advice regarding the Cheoy Lee, but I will say this; finish that cosine wherry! If you buy a (big!)sailboat in need of repair, the rowboat of your dreams will almost certainly whither away... :(

I built a strip planked canoe a couple years ago, then built two more while I was still high from the first launching! If you like boats and building stuff, you will be immensely gratified when you launch your first boat. Nothing like paddling (or rowing, in your case)your own!

I'm currently building a sailing dory, and I've already got my eye on plans for something bigger... I dare not breathe the name, lest my dream be unfulfilled!

[Carl Applebaum]

Don't be so discouraged. The above estimate could be too high by half. It really depends on the specifics of the repair jobs. Some of them you can do yourself. Perhaps it would be a good idea to get a good professional boatwright to take a look and do an estimate. Plywood deck material on Orient-built boats of that period typically need replacing by now. If the last major upgrades were done in the '80's, you may need to replace some sails. The fundamental question is the condition of frames, deck beams, fastenings, carlins, cabin sides, transom, and planking. Rust on the engine doesn't mean it's bad. The price in general sounds all right.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Get a survey, of course.

And be realistic.

BUT faint heart never won fair lady.

Alan

[Ariel]

Hi! Ed, enjoy this boat. Not only are Cheoy Lee boats beautiful but sail well also. I read what the owner said about not taking this boat through the Panama Canal....foolish man!! This boat will take him anywhere. I wonder what he plans on buying to replace her?!? I would get a survey done and then get busy....all boats are work--even new ones. Congratulations! Choice well made...

[Scott Rosen]

Ed,

It's impossible to give any kind of reliable estimate because we've never seen the boat and we haven't seen a thorough survey.

Restoring a big boat is huge undertaking. There are lots of ways to go about it, though. Some cost less and take less time than others. For example, you could forego teak decks and install Dynel in epoxy over plywood. That would be strong, look good, durable and a lot less expensive than teak. Or you could seal the deck and try to squeeze another few years out of it. Problem is, the delay may cause rot to spread into the deck beams if it hasn't already.

When you have your survey done, ask the surveyor to give you two scenarios: First, what will it take to get the boat safe enough to sail, addressing only those problems that are a current threat to safety; and Second, what will it take address all of the deficiencies and problems, including cosmetics.

Just by way of example, a boat built in 1964 will most likely be ready for refastening. Even if the boat is copper riveted, there will be bronze screws at the hood ends, garboard, etc., which will have corroded. Once you start refastening, there's a chance you will find some rot in the stem, keel and/or transom. But you won't know until you start pulling screws. Now, it could be that you could postpone refastening for a few years and save some $$ now. But you will have to do it at some point, and it's best not to wait until your garboard springs a leak while close-hauled in 25 knots of wind, 15 miles off shore.

Not every poster will have had experience with this. My dad restored Patience in 1988, and I had the benefit of following the project. Patience was in much better shape than your Robb 35, and smaller too. The cost was up there, but could have been reduced somewhat if the yard didn't do the finish work.

My 50 to 100K estimate assumes that the boat is no worse than you describe, and assumes that you will pay to have most of the work done.

In the long run, it's always cheaper and quicker to pay more for a boat that's already had the work done by someone else. If you buy the Robb for 22K and invest 100K, you wont be able to sell her for 122K.

[Hwyl]

Buy her and sail her. I looked at the photo's nothing untoward there. Set up a five year plan of "deffered maintenance" (I heard the phrase on NPR today). There are great articles in "Cassic Boat" by Nikki Perryman about sailing one of these around the world.

Got to put a disclaimer Get a survey, use it in your negotiation. She's listed on Yachtworld for less money http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1097926&slim=quick&

[JormaS]

In 1995 I purchased a Cheoy Lee built 36 ft schooner that was built in 1964. The materials are exactly as you describe and the craftmanship is first class. The boat you mention is certainly worth preserving. However, 40 years is a long time and the list of items that need to be addressed is extensive.

I would agree with what has been said here about the survey. You need it in order to decide whether you will be able to sail her next summer or not. If not, you´re embarking on a work project that will take most of your spare time next winter, next summer and the winter after that.

You have to be realistic about even minute details. For instance, Cheoy Lee seems to have used a lot of stainless steel fastenings and fittings that are all suspect by now because of crevice corrosion. Not everything has to be addressed immediately but you have to know what lies ahead because you´re the one who´s going to do it. You should only have to pay for materials, engine rebuild and some intricate wood work like replacing a badly checked plank.

If you really like working on the boat and you have a patient wife, and the boat is hauled close to where you live then I think you should go ahead and buy it.

[Noah]

I will also add some thoughts here...

Earlier this year I purchased a 1953 36.5 ft Hinckley. Very similar boat to what you are looking at:

30HP Universal Diesel. 290 hours on the clock. Probably installed 1990

Older Main in good condition, but not a great cut. Basically an ugly sail.

Good/Great 140% Genoa. Nice looking sail

Good Jib, that is also a good sail.

All original fittings and hardware.

New Teak over Marine Ply decks. Really nice looking.

Good Cockpit and Perfect interior. The interior is original to the boat, and is very nice to be in. Someone removed the head though so I need to install one.

Not any rot that I could find. A couple of Iron Floors have some rust, and there are 3-4 ribs that I need to sister.

All of the outside brightwork needs to be done. There are a few parts here in there on the bright work that have tiny bits of rot that I need to deal with/replace.

The outer stem was rotten. I replaced the first 4 ft of stem before I could sail her.

Other than that she is in pretty good shape.

They were asking 32K, and I got her for about 1/2 of what the boat you are looking at is going for.

I have lots of work to do on her, but she is worthwhile. I had a survey done on her structure, and it came out positive.

That said, I can do all of the work. Last week she dragged her mooring and bumped into another boat. About 5ft of toe rail was damaged as well as a bit of hardware. Current Estimates are around $7900 to fix just that localized damage. (I do have insurance...) And I will probably end up fixing it myself.

Other costs that I have incurred this year:

Mast Stepping and relaunch: $700
Mooring: $750
Insurance: $600
New Fuel Filter (the old one was leaking): $140 (plus a bunch of my labor...to figure out what was happening)
New Main Sheet system: $200 (Though I got this from a friend for the cost of dinner.)
Epoxy and other paint and stuff: $150
New fire extinguishers: $40
New Flares: $50
New GPS (maybe not needed but nice): $300
4 new life jackets: $40
Plus a bunch of other random stuff: $200

Total: $3170

I figure next year will be about the same. That is without paying anyone to do anything at all to the boat.

Next year I'm going to replace all the standing rigging because I don't trust it. Plus maybe a new mainsail because I don't like the old one, and I like to go faster.

So anyway, it is do-able, and many fiberglass boats will take just as much work as a wooden one. Just different work...As always the more systems you have the more maintenance you will have to do on them. Get handy fast...

If you get the boat enjoy it. If not still do the research and thinking because it's a good exercise.

Noah

[Noah]

I should add that I think I got a dang good deal on my boat, and I knew just what I was getting into. I don't think that you could find as much boat for the price very easily. I also did lots of bargaining/walking away from the table before she was mine.

Noah

[Ed Harrow]

Ed, are you patient? Is the boat in the water (sorry if I missed this)? Any idea how long she's been on the market? The longer you wait, the lower the price. Yes, at some risk, but probably not a lot. If she's not in the water, see if the owner is agreeable to you having her surveyed (thinking about avoiding the hauling cost). You want a person with a real jaudiced eye, who knows wooden boats. I suspect that there are several of our WC breathern who can help you out there. IMHO, buying a boat out of the water (ie no in-water trials) is a bit of pig-in-a-poke, and that should have a negative impact on the price.

I "played" that game for two years, and the price went from 22K to, if you want her she's yours. Phoenix is older and "bader", of course. You can click on my little house icon and navigate your way to more pictures. The earliest ones are mostly not up as I've not managed to repost them after my old computer crashed.

Trust me (and the others) your surveyor (and your choice of same) is all important. This is not a choice to make lightly as there is way too much riding on it.

Good luck!

[ehamilton]

Thanks to everyone for all your comments. Ed, yes I'm patient. A little history on the boat. I believe the boat has been on the market for almost 2 years. The original asking price was $35,000. In June, the price was reduced to $26,000. Just this month the price has been reduced to $22,000. The owner has left on a long cruise on his new boat and the sale of the boat is being now handled by a broker, although the owner can still be reached through email. A question: Has anyone notice the bronze bolt on the steel floor frames pictures: http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ehamilton1965/vwp?.dir=/CheoyLeeRobb35&.dnm=DSCF0014.jpg&.view=t

and

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ehamilton1965/vwp?.dir=/CheoyLeeRobb35&.dnm=FloorFramBelowLeftVBerth.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ehamilton1965/lst%3f%26.d ir=/CheoyLeeRobb35%26.src=ph%26.view=t

Also, I've added some more picture at:

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ehamilton66/lst?.dir=/CheoyLeeRobb35

This is a new yahoo account. The other one was full.

Thanks again for all your replies.

[ehamilton]

Ed, I forgot to add. The boat is in the water.

[Ed Harrow]

What's the cycle time of the bilge pump when sailing hard upwind in a good breeze. My sister sailed a boat for me that was located down her way (DC) some years ago. She said the pump didn't run at all while sitting in the slip, but once sailing, it was running mighty frequently.

Phoenix, when splashed, had a gusher under her mast step (the bolts, questioned by Paul Haley) holding the keel/forekeel scarf together had completely failed, the joint had opened up to a conservative 1/8". Her value dropped as fast as the water rose.

Tim Searce, an infrequent poster, has a similar, if not identical boat. You might do a search on him and drop him a line.

Lastly, as "Poppie" would say, Don't ever restore something, you'll loose your shirt; buy something someone else has restored, and make him loose his. ;)

[Scott Rosen]

The pictures look okay, but you can't tell much about the condition of the wood from pictures.

One item in the pictures caused me concern. I noticed in the stern that there were aftermarket ventilators installed on the deck just forward of the transom and on each side of the hull just below the sheer about a foot or two forward of the transom.

That could be a sign of trouble. In those boats, the area aft of the pit can be inaccessable and can be a breeding ground for rot, mildew, etc. The fact that the owner installed ventilation suggests to me that either he was brilliant and figured he would ventilate before he had any problems, or, more likely, he installed the ventilation after he found some problems.

Check that area out very thoroughly.

[Chris Gerkin]

I am attaching the url from a previous thread. The boat in question has been out of the water a few years. The boat is a 1955 Robb that has been documented with the Coast Guard. I don't have owner info but the storage lot number is 972-442-5926. I drive by it every few months and no work is ever started. I don'tknow if it is for sale but it could give you another point of comparison.

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006133

[Doug Wood]

Certainly some very good comments (as usual) on this thread but speculation as to what repairs might be necessary and what they might cost as SPECIFICALLY related to this boat is just that; speculation. Think the only way to eventually move forward (or not) is to get out your checkbook, hire the best surveyer you can find, and then get some estimates from a reputable yard/builder on the work required.

These are pretty boats, and I hope the outcome of your quest is a positive one.

[rrowlands]

As an owner for over 20 years of a 1964 Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 with a friend owning a '64 Robb 35 I would concur with the comments stating these are great sailing boats built from the best materials with supurb workmanship. Their weakness (comparitively speaking) is in their metal work and plywood (as you have found).

The question is whether or not the boat is right for you and if you can get her at an equitable price.

I second (or third) the recomendation for a thorough survey which you can trust and a realistic estimate (time and materials) to make the required repairs. Keep in mind the resale value of the boat will unlikely ever go above $40k IMHO.

Please post the outcome of your decision.

Best of luck.

[SailBoatDude]

I had a 1966 Choy Lee - Robb 35, sold her some years ago. Fast, close winded & fun to sail. Most of the Lion class sloops where converted to yawl for the rule advantages under CCA, as was mine.

The early 60's thru the early 70's far east boatbuilders used a weird type of adhesive (fish oil based I think) in their plywood, which delaminates over time. You can get insane quickly squirting epoxy into the voids and gaps, or replace the ply.

I sold mine 10 plus years ago and the ply was replaced a few years before, I'd think yours will need same, given the shape she's currently in.

Wonderful carvings in the teak still in place on yours?

[JIM MALONEY]

While rebuilding my Winslow sloop, we have taken on several large wooden boat projects in my furniture factory. The last one was a 1964 Cheoy Lee Robb 35. We replaced the transom and transom framing, the whole cockpit and cockpit fore and aft bulkheads, the galley counter which was rotten and all the decks and deck hatches. The other parts that should have been replaced but the client did not want done were several broken or split frames aft and under the engine and a few in the galley area. All the metal floors were shot as well as the motor mounts. The fuel tank was replaced.
The original decks were 3/4" teak over 1/4" plywood - yes, 1/4" plywood. The two were not glued together. Almost all the 1/4" plywood was rotten.
We replaced the decks with 1/2" MDO resin coated plywood with 1/2" teak glued to it with Aurodux glue and filled with Teak Systems silicon caulk. The fellow who did most of the work was formerly with Palmer Johnson Yachts / Sturgeon Bay and until he started working for me had been in the repair yard as foreman for 30 years. Amazing knowledge and abilities. For your information, the client's cost for the project was $32,000 with labor billed out at only $35.00 per hour. This did not include new frames, etc. Perhaps this will give you an idea of the cost to have the work done professionally - keep in mind that most yards charge far more than we did for labor. I would estimate that to do all the work that should have been done on the boat would have cost him another $30 - 40,000. A lot of money, but they are wonderful boats.

[Hughman]

I have a Frisco Flyer, a 1964 teak on ipol 25' sloop. The plywood/stainless fittings will need to be checked/replaced, as stated above. however, the wood/workmanship/design of these boats makes it worth owning, and they are undervalued on the market. Buy this boat cheap and keep it for long term use.

You can do any work on this boat that needs doing. They're not complicated.

[Amber1]

I have a 1964 Cheoy Lee Burmuda 30 of similiar construction. The problem areas were the same except it doesn't have iron floors. I work on it weekends and the occasional weekday when I can sneak away from the office. Starting 2 1/2 years ago without wood-working skills or knowing much about boats, I am now a little over half done (I hope). The hardest part (and the most fun)is figuring out how to go about each task. I have spent about $8000 buying the best materials. My budget, which finally stabilized and is holding after a period of constant increase, is aboout $15000.

Just some input from someone doing every bit of the work himself without any previous experience.

[ehamilton]

Hi guys. I had a shipwright from Anderson's boatworks in Sausalito come over today and he quoted me $60K to replace the deck in teak and $25K-$30K to replace in fibreglass. He says the teak is pretty much shot from overscrubbing. Says that more than half the thickness of the teak has been removed in some areas. On the other hand... sure growing fond of the boat. Just spent the weekend hanging out on it. Hmmm. very tempting. But what should I pay for it? Maybe $12K? Maybe $15K?

[The Gentleman Sawyer]

Could someone explain to me how it could possibly cost $30K for a fiberglass deck or $60K for teak on this boat?
The Gentleman Sawyer

[ahc]

Ed,

What part of "Get a survey done by a licensed surveyor who knows wooden boats" are you confused about?

[Scott Rosen]

$60K sounds a bit expensive for a replacement deck. There's a better way to do a teak over plywood deck, that also costs less. Check out Teak Decking Systems. http://www.teakdecking.com/index.html

[chucksw]

Maybe that includes replacing the deck beams? I'd do marine ply and epoxy /glass cloth on the decks. And I would do it myself. As far as price, I'd throw out $9K to start and shoot for no more than $12K. The broker won't be offended. And Ed has a good shot at getting it for around $10-12K espec. if the sellers got a new boat and want to move on and cruise. The market is really slow. Do get an out of the water survey and have the hull checked out thoroughly to really get an idea what you are in for.

Chuck

[ehamilton]

ahc,
Who said anything about being "confused about" "Get a survey done by a licensed surveyor who knows wooden boats". Of course I'm going to get a licensed surveyor. But before I do I want the best pre-survey guess as to the value of the boat. I don't want to be in a situation where I'm trying to negotiate the deal down based on what the surveyor found wrong with the boat. I will have already paid out of $1K+ (haulout + boat surveyor + engine surveyor).

[Noah]

Hi Edward ,

It seems like you are moving forward the right way on this boat.

But, you also need to figure out if you really want it. IS she the absolute right one? Once you fix the deck, you still have a old engine, some crappy floors, and no doubt other things that you will need to fix. You need to ask yourself is this the boat that I really want to sail for the next 10 years. Otherwise you will loose money on the whole thing. (Unless you are very crafty.)

My guess is that you should pay around 10K for the boat if it's really what you want.

I would first make an offer of 13-16k contingent on a survey. That will get you in the door, and let them know that you are serious. Once you get the survey done by a real wooden boat guy they will probably ****can the boat. Surveyors are supposed to talk you out of things. Be sure to have the broker on hand while the surveyor is there to hear the negativity.

After the survey you will probably want to make a lower offer. When I bought my boat I walked from the deal after the survey. I then called back 2 weeks later with a counter offer that they accepted. I could have payed less, and I could have payed more. Like others have said, a wooden boat really has no simple value.

Decks are a big undertaking, and they aren't fun. If you go cruising and the boat leaks on your head you will hate life.

Good luck,

Noah