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rbgarr
10-24-2014, 07:59 PM
I don't know the details yet but were I someone returning from West Africa after helping suppress the spread of the ebola virus I certainly would avoid entering the US through NY or NJ. Wouldn't you? The prospect of being unable to work for three weeks, see my family, etc. regardless of what my health may be? It would be like emigrating through Ellis Island all over again.

Horace
10-24-2014, 08:04 PM
I don't know the details yet but were I someone returning from West Africa after helping suppress the spread of the ebola virus I certainly would avoid entering the US through NY or NJ. Wouldn't you? The prospect of being unable to work for three weeks, see my family, etc. regardless of what my health may be? It would be like emigrating through Ellis Island all over again.Got a link to whatever prompted this musing?

rbgarr
10-24-2014, 11:48 PM
It may work for NY and NJ at airports only, I'd suggest, but my point is that automatic quarantine will prompt some people to come back here through entry points elsewhere and not report where they've been or who they've been in contact with. Automatic quarantine everywhere is unenforceable in practice and contributes to the spread of any infection in worse ways.

Paul Girouard
10-24-2014, 11:57 PM
I don't know the details yet but were I someone returning from West Africa after helping suppress the spread of the ebola virus I certainly would avoid entering the US through NY or NJ. Wouldn't you? The prospect of being unable to work for three weeks, see my family, etc. regardless of what my health may be? It would be like emigrating through Ellis Island all over again.


A Doctor or other health care profession should factor that into the trip.

So you'd dodge the quarantine and put spreading the disease you just spent time attempting to contain at risk?

rbgarr
10-25-2014, 12:10 AM
If I were a health professional (I'm not) and my assessment was that I'd not been in direct contact with body fluids of infected patients I might well choose to self-monitor rather than be quarantined against my will. Others would submit to it, but there's no guarantee everyone would. So how is it enforceable?

It looks like the reduction in volunteers and doctors choosing to help could well drop dramatically, at least from the US. News report here. Don't know how accurate it is: http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2014/10/governors_order_ebola_quarantines

Flu kills many, many people each year. Do (or will) we force people to take flu shots now?

Gerarddm
10-25-2014, 12:46 AM
Their passport stamps show where they have been, jeesh.

Maybe what we are going to need again are quarantine islands.

Paul Girouard
10-25-2014, 01:25 AM
Their passport stamps show where they have been, jeesh.

Maybe what we are going to need again are quarantine islands.

Where's your faith in Pres. O, he said not to worry, his regime would take care of it. No big deal, right? You might need a short vacation to one of the reducation camps!

PeterSibley
10-25-2014, 01:29 AM
I don't know the details yet but were I someone returning from West Africa after helping suppress the spread of the ebola virus I certainly would avoid entering the US through NY or NJ. Wouldn't you? The prospect of being unable to work for three weeks, see my family, etc. regardless of what my health may be? It would be like emigrating through Ellis Island all over again.

Were I coming from a ebola infected area I would welcome a way of protecting my family and community, if there wasn't a quarantine facility set up I'd go camping by myself for 3 weeks.

skuthorp
10-25-2014, 05:53 AM
There are other more pertinent, more local, and so far more fatal risks ……...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?183828-school-shooting

rbgarr
10-25-2014, 08:01 AM
Their passport stamps show where they have been, jeesh.

Maybe what we are going to need again are quarantine islands.

So ANYONE who's been in one of the West African nations goes into quarantine? This is sounding more and more gestapo-ish.

ccmanuals
10-25-2014, 09:37 AM
The only way to stop the spread of this virus is at the source, Africa. Anything else is a temporary band aid.

Ian McColgin
10-25-2014, 09:53 AM
This quarentine is a totally bull PR move. Especially health care professionals will keep close tabs and take themselves into quarentine in a timely matter. It's all about the liar reporting that had that doc at 103 fever instead of the actual 100.3. Doh! The only thing this quarentine does is make it harder for medical people to take time off to go over, do some of god's work, and come home to their day jobs. That in turn will make the continuing plague of ebla in Africa last longer, spread more deeply, and become a greater continental threat.

I am not surprised that Christie would pander in this way. More than a bit disappointed that Cuomo did.

Horace
10-25-2014, 10:12 AM
I presume you have looked up the CDC's authority (which is Constitutional) for quarantine, but in case you haven't, here is the Link.

(http://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html)
I don't know the details yet but were I someone returning from West Africa after helping suppress the spread of the ebola virus I certainly would avoid entering the US through NY or NJ. Wouldn't you? The prospect of being unable to work for three weeks, see my family, etc. regardless of what my health may be?Would you rather take a chance of exposing them and everyone else to Ebola?


It may work for NY and NJ at airports only, I'd suggest, but my point is that automatic quarantine will prompt some people to come back here through entry points elsewhere and not report where they've been or who they've been in contact with. Automatic quarantine everywhere is unenforceable in practice and contributes to the spread of any infection in worse ways.Where is your information supporting that statement, or is it mere opinion?


If I were a health professional (I'm not) and my assessment was that I'd not been in direct contact with body fluids of infected patients I might well choose to self-monitor rather than be quarantined against my will. Others would submit to it, but there's no guarantee everyone would. So how is it enforceable?So you're self-identifying as an antisocial person who would set his own convenience above the safety of society? Great!


Flu kills many, many people each year. Do (or will) we force people to take flu shots now?Flu is many orders of magnitude a less severe disease--and is already endemic worldwide. Would you be comfortable with a worldwide presence of Ebola?


So ANYONE who's been in one of the West African nations goes into quarantine? This is sounding more and more gestapo-ish.But Constitutional and sound practice, considering the alternative. Do you wish to live in a country where, for instance, "we have an economic crisis, oh, and an Ebola outbreak, too;" or "we have a flu epidemic, oh, and an Ebola outbreak, too;" or "we're fighting a natural disaster, oh, and an Ebola outbreak, too;" or "we're fighting a war...."

Get the idea? Still want to leave it up to individual initiative?

Just to get your juices flowing: apparently the Kenyan is comfortable with the minimal approach. I'm not.

ETA:
The only way to stop the spread of this virus is at the source, Africa. Anything else is a temporary band aid.A travel quarantine is part of stopping the virus from spreading. Some African nations have already established closed borders with the affected area, and have limited the spread of the disease. Do you agree with a quarantine?

Durnik
10-25-2014, 10:34 AM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by rbgarr http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4334789#post4334789)

If I were a health professional (I'm not) and my assessment was that I'd not been in direct contact with body fluids of infected patients I might well choose to self-monitor rather than be quarantined against my will. Others would submit to it, but there's no guarantee everyone would. So how is it enforceable?


So you're self-identifying as an antisocial person who would set his own convenience above the safety of society? Great!


...


Get the idea? Still want to leave it up to individual initiative?

Just to get your juices flowing: apparently the Kenyan is comfortable with the minimal approach. I'm not.

ETA:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by ccmanuals http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4334990#post4334990)

The only way to stop the spread of this virus is at the source, Africa. Anything else is a temporary band aid.

A travel quarantine is part of stopping the virus from spreading. Some African nations have already established closed borders with the affected area, and have limited the spread of the disease.

Do you agree with a quarantine?


What's this? A "Live Free or Die" Libertarian clamoring for Government intervention?!?!? Well, who didn't see _that_ coming?! ;-)

Ah, yes - this intervention is to harm/burden individuals Horace disagrees or finds fault with. That makes it A-Ok - as long as the gubmint doesn't _help_ individuals. That's a big No-No in Me-Me land.

& what's with the 'Kenyan' thing? AFAIK, Kenya isn't having an Ebola problem - & in case you are attempting a (typical libertarian) slur, our President is American, born in Hawaii - & might, just might, understand freedom & its requirements better than the typical Libertarian, eh? ;-)

enjoy
bobby

Horace
10-25-2014, 10:59 AM
This quarentine is a totally bull PR move. Especially health care professionals will keep close tabs and take themselves into quarentine in a timely matter. It's all about the liar reporting that had that doc at 103 fever instead of the actual 100.3. Doh! The only thing this quarentine does is make it harder for medical people to take time off to go over, do some of god's work, and come home to their day jobs. That in turn will make the continuing plague of ebla in Africa last longer, spread more deeply, and become a greater continental threat. Here's a snippet from CNN:

"He arrived at John F. Kennedy International Airport on October 17, but he exhibited no symptoms of the virus until Thursday morning, said Dr. Mary Travis Bassett, New York City's health commissioner.

The physician, who works at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital, was checking his temperature twice a day. He has not seen any patients since his return.

The 33-year-old did not have any symptoms just after his return, but he developed a fever, nausea, pain and fatigue Thursday morning, authorities said. He began feeling sluggish a couple of days ago, but his fever spiked to 100.3 degrees Fahrenheit (about 38 Celsius) the day his symptoms appeared."


It strikes me as significant that the doctor's temperature spiked to "only" 100.3 degrees the day his symptoms appeared: the official CDC screening guideline is 101.5 degrees. (Link.) (http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/evd-screening-criteria.pdf)

Apparently the resources used by the medical profession to assess this disease need some refinement.

rbgarr
10-25-2014, 12:06 PM
I don't think a quarantine is effectively enforceable. It will simply drive people to avoid it and I agree with Ian that's it's a political bs effort.

There's this, too: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/nyregion/nurse-in-newark-tests-negative-for-ebola.html

Horace
10-25-2014, 12:10 PM
What's this? A "Live Free or Die" Libertarian clamoring for Government intervention?!?!? Well, who didn't see _that_ coming?! ;-)Your post includes a rather oddly-edited version of mine, and misses its point.

By the way, what makes you think I'm a Libertarian? I consider myself a "classical liberal," but like most don't fit neatly into any particular category. At any rate, that's not the subject of this thread, but nice try at diversion.


Ah, yes - this intervention is to harm/burden individuals Horace disagrees or finds fault with. That makes it A-Ok - as long as the gubmint doesn't _help_ individuals. That's a big No-No in Me-Me land.Whatever are you talking about? Do you know yourself? Would you consider the burden of a new disease being established in this country a small price to pay for your support of the action, or more precisely, lack of action of an inept and indecisive administration?



Just to get your juices flowing: apparently the Kenyan is comfortable with the minimal approach. I'm not.& what's with the 'Kenyan' thing? AFAIK, Kenya isn't having an Ebola problem - & in case you are attempting a (typical libertarian) slur, our President is American, born in Hawaii - & might, just might, understand freedom & its requirements better than the typical Libertarian, eh? ;-) "What's with the 'Kenyan' thing?"

Here's a hint:

Just to get your juices flowing: I see you're still entertained by the mere sound of the rattling of your keyboard. :d;)

Horace
10-25-2014, 12:33 PM
I don't think a quarantine is effectively enforceable. It will simply drive people to avoid it and I agree with Ian that's it's a political bs effort.I posted a link to a site with the following information a few days ago: A 21-day isolation period without symptoms apparently affords a 95% assurance that an exposed person is not infected with the Ebola virus; a 42-day isolation period increases that assurance to only 98%. What the requirement is to achieve 100% certainty is unknown, but having no isolation period for exposed patients would be extremely unwise.

Likewise, having no provision for quarantining travelers arriving from a plague area during the incubation time of their possible exposure is accepting defeatism as the price of political correctness and partisanship. Even when not totally, 100% effective, quarantine measures reduce the risk of exposure of the population of this country by some unknown but nevertheless real percentage.

Reynard38
10-25-2014, 12:44 PM
I've no problem with the qaurantining of people who have been exposed to this disease. I'm glad that Goverment officials have taken steps to protect Americans, the people they were sworn to serve and voted them into office.

Durnik
10-25-2014, 01:45 PM
I consider myself a "classical liberal,"

The 3R's consider themselves sane too - & your point is?


Whatever are you talking about? Do you know yourself? Would you consider the burden of a new disease being established in this country a small price to pay for your support of the action, or more precisely, lack of action of an inept and indecisive administration?

Bizarre.. Let's put it this way - We do have an inept & indecisive Republican & Teabagger contingent in Congress, & they are doing all they can to stir the pot & prevent adequate & timely response (on many things, including the Ebola situation).. You may consider yourself a "classical liberal", but you show signs of "classical teabagger". "Inept Administration" are teabagger keywords, as were 'the Kenyan'. So, do _you_ know yourself? ;-) <- smiley makes it all good!

BTW, I'd be good with a quarantine - if one were needed. Realistically, what we need is to make all hospitals/clinics/pharmaceuticals Not-for-Profits, get a Surgeon General approved (Thanks, Tea-Baggers!) & start letting medicine be medicine, not a profit making industry.

In case you're unable to follow that line of reasoning, let me help. When a hospital is looking at investing in a proper environmental hazards room (with dedicated proper shower/changing areas) & the accompanying costs vs just letting a few people get sick & die (with the profit generated from hospitalization while they die).. well, in a (esp, our) predatory capitalist society, profit wins! Which is why no part of health care should produce profits.

enjoy
bobby

Horace
10-25-2014, 01:50 PM
Tappitytappitytappitytap...

enjoy
bobby:) ...

Durnik
10-25-2014, 02:09 PM
^ yes, the ability to learn is a liberal trait.. ;-)

enjoy
bobby

rbgarr
10-27-2014, 10:00 AM
I've no problem with the qaurantining of people who have been exposed to this disease. I'm glad that Goverment officials have taken steps to protect Americans, the people they were sworn to serve and voted them into office.

As a pilot how will you know if you and your crew are exposed to the disease or not?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/03/why-quarantines-wont-stop-ebola-from-spreading-in-the-u-s/

rbgarr
10-27-2014, 10:32 AM
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2014/10/airport_screening_for_ebola_did_thomas_eric_duncan _lie_and_should_liars.2.html

McMike
10-27-2014, 05:00 PM
So ANYONE who's been in one of the West African nations goes into quarantine? This is sounding more and more gestapo-ish.

This Ebola thing might not warrant manditory quarenteen, how would you feel if it was a highly contagious and deadly flu we were looking at instead? Would you rather be responsible for making a bad situation worse? Sounds selfish to me.

rbgarr
10-27-2014, 09:23 PM
Yes, it would be selfish and there may well be people who choose that route. Make it easier and more reasonable for them to NOT choose that way to respond. Quarantine is simply unenforceable in any reliable way.

McMike
10-27-2014, 11:55 PM
I would submit that quarenteen should not be a choice under certain conditions.

Ian McColgin
10-28-2014, 07:03 AM
Agreed no choise in presence of first symptoms (unless blood test proves symptoms are something else) or positive blood test.

The majority of people coming into the US from the affected areas are returning health care people who will self-monitor.

The programs of screening and monitoring all people entering from the affected areas are good tools and should be strengthened by our assisting affected nations in exit screening as well.

But no mass quarentines. That's only a way to make things worse in Africa and increases the chance that some desperate infected soul will sneak in and could infect a few people before being isolated.

Those who think we can build a wall on this must read Poe's "Masque of the Red Death".

wizbang 13
10-28-2014, 08:51 AM
Instead of putting them in a tent with a jonny can and no shower, put them in a 5 star hotel for 3 weeks . Four Seasons will do fine.
That way , there will be no shortage of "health care"workers willing to go over and no one trying to dodge the Q!

Durnik
10-28-2014, 09:43 AM
^ The U.S. doesn't do 'carrot'. As a Christian nation, it believes in frequent & forceful applications of the 'stick'. Tent & a bucket are more than enough!

enjoy
bobby

CK 17
10-28-2014, 02:31 PM
i think those returning should be tracked, monitored, perhaps have there movements restricted somewhat. That way we can know instantly if they become symptomatic.

Putting that young lady in a tent was absurd. that picture will come back to haunt later.

Bubba L.
10-28-2014, 02:52 PM
I've no problem with the qaurantining of people who have been exposed to this disease. I'm glad that Goverment officials have taken steps to protect Americans, the people they were sworn to serve and voted them into office.

Martial law? Using guns is the only way to completely enforce a silly quarantine. Medical and health professionals are against the quarantine, it's only purpose is to make people "think" something is being done by the polls. It's a ridiculous idea.

Gene

rbgarr
11-09-2014, 10:02 AM
http://www.pressherald.com/2014/11/07/kaci-hickox-boyfriend-leaving-maine-after-ebola-quarantine/

Bubba L.
11-09-2014, 10:09 AM
http://www.pressherald.com/2014/11/07/kaci-hickox-boyfriend-leaving-maine-after-ebola-quarantine/

Can't blame them for wanting to get out of the spot light but is traveling the best way to do this? Could it be that they want to bring more attention to this issue by showing that no one is dying from their travel?

Gene

Ian McColgin
11-09-2014, 10:12 AM
It's testimony to the effectiveness of political fear mongering that health sciences students should be such a problem and that in such an unsubtle way the school authorities should enable hysterical stupidity.

Durnik
11-09-2014, 10:42 AM
^succinct

Bubba L.
11-09-2014, 11:29 AM
^succinct

What are you trying to say? :d

Gene

Bubba L.
11-09-2014, 11:32 AM
It's testimony to the effectiveness of political fear mongering that health sciences students should be such a problem and that in such an unsubtle way the school authorities should enable hysterical stupidity.

I quickly scanned the story the first time and didn't see what the school had done. It's sad.

Gene

John Smith
11-09-2014, 11:38 AM
The "home of the brave" sure panics easily, doesn't it?

I think Obama got blamed for handling this, too.