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Paul Pless
10-24-2014, 03:41 PM
A student at Washington state's Marysville-Pilchuck High School walked into the school's cafeteria, went up to a table with students, "came up from behind ... and fired about six bullets into the backs of them," witness Jordan Luton told CNN. "They were his friends, so it wasn't just random," Luton said.
The gunman who opened fire Friday morning at Marysville-Pilchuck High School, just north of Seattle, shot five people, killing one, before turning the gun on himself, law enforcement officials told

. . .

BCarp
10-24-2014, 03:47 PM
Copy Cat Nation. Having problems? Go to a site with helpless victims and shoot at them. Evil cowards....

johnw
10-24-2014, 04:17 PM
I once had a girlfriend who went to that school. Working-class town north of Everett. It's hard to imagine what led to this.

Jim Bow
10-24-2014, 07:04 PM
Local media is reporting that it was over breaking up with a girlfriend. Kid was 14.

Bubba L.
10-24-2014, 09:29 PM
What he did was terrible and I'm not making excuses for his actions or implying in any way that he isn't responsible for them but just try to imagine the torment he must have felt to be able to do this. A normal, healthy, happy person doesn't do something like this.

Gene

Phillip Allen
10-24-2014, 09:38 PM
What he did was terrible and I'm not making excuses for his actions or implying in any way that he isn't responsible for them but just try to imagine the torment he must have felt to be able to do this. A normal, healthy, happy person doesn't do something like this.

Gene

it's been my observation that teens agonize over minutia... it's built into them and I don't think it can be talked away.
in helping to raise my own granddaughters, I have deliberately kept this in mind... what seems a small thing to many of us is insurmountable to a 15 year old... it is our job as the elders to help them to understand as much as can be understood and to remember that everyone is entitled to their own gut wrenching problems... such as Meghan's need to do her hair up for a night time football game... it is so much easier to help if one knows at some of what's going on inside that teen ager's head.

Helping them to organize their thoughts is not something to be done once then to be moved on from… it never stops (for the most part)… it is a process, not a chore

Paul Girouard
10-24-2014, 10:08 PM
Well this shooting changes the part where I didn't know anyone who'd been shot or involved with a shooting. A USN buddies daughter attends that school , she was "near by" but not injuried durning this event.

Interesting time it seems.

The Bigfella
10-24-2014, 10:11 PM
Collateral damage from the Second Amendment.

Nothing to see here, 80+ more dead today.

Move on and ignore the deaths and injuries please.

Gerarddm
10-25-2014, 01:07 AM
Sadly true.

Hwyl
10-25-2014, 06:24 AM
Another victory for the NRA.

wizbang 13
10-25-2014, 07:18 AM
What kids need is more stress.
More testing,more rules, more regulations.

Nicholas Scheuer
10-25-2014, 08:06 AM
Nothing will change between now and next time.

S/V Laura Ellen
10-25-2014, 08:41 AM
it's been my observation that teens agonize over minutia... it's built into them and I don't think it can be talked away.
in helping to raise my own granddaughters, I have deliberately kept this in mind... what seems a small thing to many of us is insurmountable to a 15 year old... it is our job as the elders to help them to understand as much as can be understood and to remember that everyone is entitled to their own gut wrenching problems... such as Meghan's need to do her hair up for a night time football game... it is so much easier to help if one knows at some of what's going on inside that teen ager's head.

Helping them to organize their thoughts is not something to be done once then to be moved on from… it never stops (for the most part)… it is a process, not a chore

Smartest and most insightful thing Phillip has said in a long time.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:50 AM
He was a Native American, and one of his victims was a "good friend" from the same tribe. He was a freshman wrestler and football player, and everyone I heard interviewed was gobsmacked that he would do such a thing.

After the murder in our substation in '93, we had a bunch of talks about signs to look for. The guy who shot 5 people that day had exhibited NONE of those signs.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:52 AM
it's been my observation that teens agonize over minutia... it's built into them and I don't think it can be talked away.
in helping to raise my own granddaughters, I have deliberately kept this in mind... what seems a small thing to many of us is insurmountable to a 15 year old... it is our job as the elders to help them to understand as much as can be understood and to remember that everyone is entitled to their own gut wrenching problems... such as Meghan's need to do her hair up for a night time football game... it is so much easier to help if one knows at some of what's going on inside that teen ager's head.

Helping them to organize their thoughts is not something to be done once then to be moved on from… it never stops (for the most part)… it is a process, not a chore

I agree. Even the concept of time is different. A month to a young person looks a lot longer than it does to an older person.

I once asked my wife why our two daughters fought over such minor things. She decided they didn't have any major things to fight over.

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 08:52 AM
Another victory for the NRA. Another asinine comment about the NRA.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:55 AM
Nothing will change between now and next time.

This is an area where I don't see how anything CAN be done. I've taken the position that we can make it very difficult to bring a gun into a school, theater, mall, etc. But I see no way to keep guns out of the hands of people who will use them to shoot other people.

GregH
10-25-2014, 09:00 AM
Another victory for the NRA.

+1 - morons!

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 09:02 AM
+1 - morons! Asininity is contagious.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 09:06 AM
I remain open to suggestions for legislation that has any chance of working any better than our drug laws have. We have, IMO, misinterpreted the 2nd Amendment at our great peril, and now we have to accept what it has led to. There are over 300 million guns in the hands of the public. As legislation is considered, gun owners "stock up". By the time any legislation passes they'll be 400 million guns in the hands of the public.

No matter what laws are passed concerning the purchase of new guns, unless you deal with the pre-owned guns, I doubt you'll cut down on the shootings.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 09:14 AM
I'm sorry. I don't get your anger. There have been lots of shootings by kids with guns. I think having a problem with unsupervised children having access to firearms is not a bad thing.

you need to work on your reading comprehension

ccmanuals
10-25-2014, 09:35 AM
As the organization representing gun owners what is this organization doing to prevent these tragedies. Anyone, Bueller ?

TomF
10-25-2014, 09:40 AM
Nick nailed it in #14.

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 09:44 AM
Nick nailed it in #14.its very sad

Nicholas Scheuer
10-25-2014, 10:01 AM
A constructive suggestion: I used to work with a couple of Suisse and heard the same comment from them that I've often heard about Switzerland in general, that a many of them belong to some sort of Reserve Militia and keep automatic weapons in their closets at home. At we hear of no "school shootings" by youth in Switzerland, maybe we should inquire as to how they manage all those firearms?

I know, the hubris of American Exceptionalism and the NRA would make that a difficult undertaking.

George Jung
10-25-2014, 10:12 AM
It comes down to personal responsibility. Not sure how this 14 yo had access to guns - but someone dropped the ball. I've a grandson now, who will soon have the run of our, and my daughters, place. When I was a kid, our guns were in the corner of the closet - and the thought of shooting someone, unthinkable. Society was different then; TV shows/violence were different. Times have changed. All of our guns are in the 'safe'; education will precede access.

Steve McMahon
10-25-2014, 10:22 AM
Another asinine comment about the NRA.

I don't think so. Sadly the NRA has become the voice of those who believe there should be no restrictions on firearms including on how they are stored. And the NRA is funded by.............follow the money.......do you suppose the manufacturers of said firearms and ammunition send money to the NRA ????

Steve McMahon
10-25-2014, 11:05 AM
From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#Finances

Finances Less than half of the NRA's income is from membership dues and program fees. The majority is from contributions, grants, royalties, and advertising, and the firearms industry.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-Hickey130116-32) According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Shooting_Sports_Foundation) (NSSF), the industry has "more than 10,000 manufacturers, distributors, firearms retailers, shooting ranges, sportsmen's organizations and publishers."[124] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-124)
Since 2005, the organization has received at least $14.8 million from more than 50 firearms-related firms.[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-Robison-Crewdson2011-125) In 2008, Beretta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta) exceeded $2 million in donations to the NRA, and in 2012, Smith & Wesson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson) gave more than $1 million. Sturm, Ruger & Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturm,_Ruger_%26_Company) raised $1.25 million through a program in which it donated $1 to the NRA-ILA for each gun it sold from May 2011 to May 2012. In a similar program, gun buyers and participating stores are invited to "round up" the purchase price to the nearest dollar as a voluntary contribution. According to the NRA's 2010 tax forms, the "round-up" funds have been allocated to both public interest programs and lobbying.[107] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-FactCheck130115-107)

The NRA's total revenue for 2011 was $218.9 million, with total expenses of $231 million.[126] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-NRA990-2011-126) In 2010, it reported revenue of $227.8 million and expenses of $243.5 million,[127] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-NRA990-2010-127) with revenue including roughly $115 million generated from fundraising, sales, advertising and royalties, and most of the rest from membership dues.[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-Robison-Crewdson2011-125) Corporate sponsors include a variety of companies such as outdoors supply, sporting goods companies, and firearm manufacturers.[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-Robison-Crewdson2011-125)[128] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-128)rofit Driven

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 11:20 AM
From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#Finances

Finances Less than half of the NRA's income is from membership dues and program fees. The majority is from contributions, grants, royalties, and advertising, and the firearms industry.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-Hickey130116-32) According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Shooting_Sports_Foundation) (NSSF), the industry has "more than 10,000 manufacturers, distributors, firearms retailers, shooting ranges, sportsmen's organizations and publishers."[124] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-124)
Since 2005, the organization has received at least $14.8 million from more than 50 firearms-related firms.[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-Robison-Crewdson2011-125) In 2008, Beretta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta) exceeded $2 million in donations to the NRA, and in 2012, Smith & Wesson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson) gave more than $1 million. Sturm, Ruger & Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturm,_Ruger_%26_Company) raised $1.25 million through a program in which it donated $1 to the NRA-ILA for each gun it sold from May 2011 to May 2012. In a similar program, gun buyers and participating stores are invited to "round up" the purchase price to the nearest dollar as a voluntary contribution. According to the NRA's 2010 tax forms, the "round-up" funds have been allocated to both public interest programs and lobbying.[107] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-FactCheck130115-107)

The NRA's total revenue for 2011 was $218.9 million, with total expenses of $231 million.[126] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-NRA990-2011-126) In 2010, it reported revenue of $227.8 million and expenses of $243.5 million,[127] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-NRA990-2010-127) with revenue including roughly $115 million generated from fundraising, sales, advertising and royalties, and most of the rest from membership dues.[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-Robison-Crewdson2011-125) Corporate sponsors include a variety of companies such as outdoors supply, sporting goods companies, and firearm manufacturers.[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-Robison-Crewdson2011-125)[128] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-128)rofit Driven

looks to me that the NRA has a lot of public sukpport... whodathunkit... the democracy people seem to be rather selective in what you want people to actually be democratic about :)

Hwyl
10-25-2014, 11:26 AM
get used to him... he's limited to such simple minded foolishness... don't waste your time teaching a pig to dance


Another asinine comment about the NRA.


Asininity is contagious.

Some pretty cogent arguments from the pro gun folks, in the meantime, two kids lay dead and others are fighting for their lives. Whose feet do we lay the blame at.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 11:29 AM
Some pretty cogent arguments from the pro gun folks, in the meantime, two kids lay dead and others are fighting for their lives. Whose feet do we lay the blame at.

are you in favor of outlawing motorcycles... ?

TomF
10-25-2014, 11:33 AM
are you in favor of outlawing motorcycles... ?How about romances between 14 year olds?

In the interest of making Nick's prophecy in #14 false, what intervention(s) of any sort do you recommend? If you've none, and only critiques of others', then you're implicitly accepting collateral damage in order to keep something you consider more important than those lives.

Steve McMahon
10-25-2014, 11:36 AM
looks to me that the NRA has a lot of public sukpport... whodathunkit... the democracy people seem to be rather selective in what you want people to actually be democratic about :)

It's a frikkin lobby group funded primarily by the gun manufacturers. Do the math Phillip.
As a matter of fact its one of the biggest lobby groups in the US of A. If buying politicians and bullying your way with lawsuits id your idea of democracy then have at 'er.

Observers and lawmakers see the NRA as one of the top three most influential lobbying groups in Washington.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-FortuneSurvey1999-5)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-6) Over its history the organization has influenced legislation, participated in or initiated lawsuits, and endorsed or opposed various candidates.

Hwyl
10-25-2014, 11:37 AM
are you in favor of outlawing motorcycles... ?

I'm in favor of licensing them and making sure their riders pass a test, and making sure they are roadworthy. How about doing that with guns?

Steve McMahon
10-25-2014, 11:44 AM
I'm in favor of licensing them and making sure their riders pass a test, and making sure they are roadworthy. How about doing that with guns?

Oh No! That would violate our precious.................. blah blah blah blah...........:rolleyes:

Durnik
10-25-2014, 12:00 PM
It's a frikkin lobby group funded primarily by the gun manufacturers. Do the math Phillip.
As a matter of fact its one of the biggest lobby groups in the US of A. If buying politicians and bullying your way with lawsuits id your idea of democracy then have at 'er.

Observers and lawmakers see the NRA as one of the top three most influential lobbying groups in Washington.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-FortuneSurvey1999-5)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#cite_note-6) Over its history the organization has influenced legislation, participated in or initiated lawsuits, and endorsed or opposed various candidates.

In TN, I saw a campaign sign the other day - forget the candidate (doesn't matter a whole lot, I'll vote for _no_ Republican) - but the sign said one thing

The NRA Supports
Joe Blow

That's how powerful they are. No positions, just "The NRA Supports.." -

With this for 'information', we have one hell of a (wrongly!) informed populace!

enjoy
bobby

Peerie Maa
10-25-2014, 12:32 PM
looks to me that the NRA has a lot of public sukpport... whodathunkit... the democracy people seem to be rather selective in what you want people to actually be democratic about :)

Yep, and everyone of them is responcible for the death of a child. With out the US of A's citizens acceptance of the status quo an unhappy child might have jumped off a bridge, but would not have killed his best friend and wounded his class mates.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 12:34 PM
Yep, and everyone of them is responcible for the death of a child. With out the US of A's citizens acceptance of the status quo an unhappy child might have jumped off a bridge, but would not have killed his best friend and wounded his class mates.

responsible for a death... ?!

does that make supporters of cars and motorcycles and raw milk all child killers, then?

Steve McMahon
10-25-2014, 12:40 PM
responsible for a death... ?!

does that make supporters of cars and motorcycles and raw milk all child killers, then?

You seem to have a challenge differentiating between what is an accident and what is a deliberate act. An accidental death by MVC is a wee bit different from someone shooting someone else or themselves with a firearm.

Peerie Maa
10-25-2014, 12:43 PM
responsible for a death... ?!

does that make supporters of cars and motorcycles and raw milk all child killers, then?

Phillip, please stop digging and throw out the shovel, you are staring to sound like an idiot.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 12:44 PM
Phillip, please stop digging and throw out the shovel, you are staring to sound like an idiot.

I take it that you agree and want to hide that bit of 'information' :)

Peerie Maa
10-25-2014, 12:51 PM
I take it that you agree and want to hide that bit of 'information' :)

No, I think that you are fool for making the comparison.

Hwyl
10-25-2014, 01:03 PM
No, I think that you are fool for making the comparison.

I agree with Nick, except I'd add "callous" .

Mike Erkkinen
10-25-2014, 01:09 PM
So, do you think laws should be passed to limit access to handguns by 14 year old kids?
Yes or No!
And what about beernd's very Rude language. Is that okay with you, Phillip?

Do you know of any place where it's legal for a 14 year old to possess/carry a handgun? Do facts matter, or is stale rhetoric the only substance that counts?

Mike Erkkinen
10-25-2014, 01:17 PM
I'm in favor of licensing them and making sure their riders pass a test, and making sure they are roadworthy. How about doing that with guns?

The vast majority of gun owners and ccw carriers agree with you - as do most populated states. DC just mandated 18 hours of instruction for a permit, though they have no instructors.

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 01:17 PM
Do you know of any place where it's legal for a 14 year old to possess/carry a handgun? Do facts matter, or is stale rhetoric the only substance that counts?Should we require that gun owners show proficiency in use and safe handling and storage of guns? Should we require that gun owners secure their guns with either a safe or trigger lock? Should we require that gun owners have liability insurance?

FWIW, the NRA (the nation's largest, oldest, and loudest group defending gun rights) says no to all of the above.

Steve McMahon
10-25-2014, 01:21 PM
Should we require that gun owners show proficiency in use and safe handling and storage of guns? Should we require that gun owners secure their guns with either a safe or trigger lock? Should we require that gun owners have liability insurance?

FWIW, the NRA (the nation's largest, oldest, and loudest group defending gun rights) says no to all of the above.

Yes. Except maybe the insurance part. Of course, if your guns are safely stored insurance becomes a mute point.

Mike Erkkinen
10-25-2014, 01:21 PM
You seem to have a challenge differentiating between what is an accident and what is a deliberate act. An accidental death by MVC is a wee bit different from someone shooting someone else or themselves with a firearm.

Seems to me like not caring about young people dying on roads, but being shrill and self-righteous when a firearm is involved, says perhaps it's not the dying that matters.

Peerie Maa
10-25-2014, 01:28 PM
Seems to me like not caring about young people dying on roads, but being shrill and self-righteous when a firearm is involved, says perhaps it's not the dying that matters.

Erm, no. Peoples caring about road safety is evidenced by improved vehicle safety through time, laws about drink driving, speed limits and so on. Gun safety? Show me similar evidence.

Old Dryfoot
10-25-2014, 01:35 PM
Seems to me like not caring about young people dying on roads, but being shrill and self-righteous when a firearm is involved, says perhaps it's not the dying that matters.

I would bet my left whatever that one could find dozens if not hundreds of efforts to reduce fatalities on the road. From driver education, anti drunk driving, anti drugged driving, distracted driving, campaigns against street racing... the list goes on and on.

Where are the efforts to keep people safe when guns are involved?

I see lots of shrill self-righteous efforts to keep guns from being securely locked up, action taken to stop added vetting of new gun owners, and an effort to seemingly allow any and all type of firearm to be possessed and carried in any public place the owner damned well feels like carrying it!

Best check what stinks before pointing the finger.

Mike Erkkinen
10-25-2014, 01:37 PM
Erm, no. Peoples caring about road safety is evidenced by improved vehicle safety through time, laws about drink driving, speed limits and so on. Gun safety? Show me similar evidence.

I tried googling to find the number of new gun laws vs new traffic laws, with little success. I would be interested to know how they compared. I know the state I live in is constantly passing new firearm laws, as are cities. Of course passing a law, and passing a good law are 2 different things. Perhaps the best idea I've heard on these threads is to institute a massive propaganda campaign to make firearm safety and non-violence as sexy as a threesome with angolina Jolie and Kim basinger.

Mike Erkkinen
10-25-2014, 01:42 PM
I would bet my left whatever that one could find dozens if not hundreds of efforts to reduce fatalities on the road. From driver education, anti drunk driving, anti drugged driving, distracted driving, campaigns against street racing... the list goes on and on.

Where are the efforts to keep people safe when guns are involved?

I see lots of shrill self-righteous efforts to keep guns from being securely locked up, action taken to stop added vetting of new gun owners, and an effort to seemingly allow any and all type of firearm to be possessed and carried in any public place the owner damned well feels like carrying it!

Best check what stinks before pointing the finger.

Perhaps because I live in a very regulated, perhaps oppressively, state - my personal experience is opposite of your last paragraph. However, I appreciate your concern about my digit, as it both points and squeezes triggers of various kinds.

Horace
10-25-2014, 01:42 PM
Perhaps the best idea I've heard on these threads is to institute a massive propaganda campaign to make firearm safety and non-violence as sexy as a threesome with angolina Jolie and Kim basinger.I'm one of two or three here who've regularly suggested that approach. Thanks for noticing.

It's far preferable to giving up Constitutional rights.

Lew Barrett
10-25-2014, 01:46 PM
are you in favor of outlawing motorcycles... ?

Non sequitur
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29) Provided in the hope it will help you in making valid comparisons in future discussions.

Steve McMahon
10-25-2014, 01:57 PM
Seems to me like not caring about young people dying on roads, but being shrill and self-righteous when a firearm is involved, says perhaps it's not the dying that matters.

You sir are blowing smoke out yer arse.
I am being neither shrill nor self righteous regarding firearms. I am being logical. Don't leave your friggin firearms where they can be accessed easily by children! Some people are obviously stupid so make it a law.
I also care very deeply about all people dying on the roads. I'm one of those people who gets my hands dirty cutting whats left of the vehicles away from the mangled and/or dead people on the highways. I care so much in fact I spent 10 years lobbying every level of government to have rumble strips milled up the center line of all the major highways in Nova Scotia, which they are finally doing.

Durnik
10-25-2014, 02:02 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Glen Longino http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4334982#post4334982)

So, do you think laws should be passed to limit access to handguns by 14 year old kids?


Do you know of any place where it's legal for a 14 year old to possess/carry a handgun? Do facts matter, or is stale rhetoric the only substance that counts?


Why yes, facts _do_ matter.

Glen mentioned 'limiting access' - nothing was said about the legality of 14 yo's possessing/carrying. The most obvious answer to Glen's (most excellent) concern is requiring _all_ firearms to be locked up when not in a legal users hand - meaning no storing in the closet behind daddy's suit where junior can grab it at his convenience.

That do 'er for ya - or do you still prefer (stale) mis-direction?



eta:




http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Mike Erkkinen http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4335198#post4335198)
Perhaps the best idea I've heard on these threads is to institute a massive propaganda campaign to make firearm safety and non-violence as sexy as a threesome with angolina Jolie and Kim basinger.




I'm one of two or three here who've regularly suggested that approach. Thanks for noticing.

It's far preferable to giving up Constitutional rights.

And I'm on record as saying that you really need to propose action/laws you can live with.. like the above - because if you don't, you will find others proposing (& eventually, passing) laws you don't want to live with.

Meaning, talk to your pet.., er, boss, the NRA & see what happens.

enjoy
bobby

Lew Barrett
10-25-2014, 02:04 PM
Seems to me like not caring about young people dying on roads, but being shrill and self-righteous when a firearm is involved, says perhaps it's not the dying that matters.

Non sequitur
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29) Provided in the hope it will help you in making valid comparisons in future discussions.

Old Dryfoot
10-25-2014, 02:04 PM
Perhaps because I live in a very regulated, perhaps oppressively, state - my personal experience is opposite of your last paragraph. However, I appreciate your concern about my digit, as it both points and squeezes triggers of various kinds.

Ah yes the cry of the oppressed. . .

I'll let you in on a little secret. I live in a country that has laws which are seen as draconian by some in the US, yet we have access to virtually the exact same firearms that you do. We just do it with common sense regulations designed to protect the population.

What we don't have is a never ending stream of school shooting and dead children due to carelessness.

Now if you really want to see some appreciation for one's concern, you would stop focusing on your own self interests and take an honest look at the toll guns have on your own country. The parents of thousands of dead children will thank you.

Mike Erkkinen
10-25-2014, 02:05 PM
You sir are blowing smoke out yer arse.
I am being neither shrill nor self righteous regarding firearms. I am being logical. Don't leave your friggin firearms where they can be accessed easily by children! Some people are obviously stupid so make it a law.
I also care very deeply about all people dying on the roads. I'm one of those people who gets my hands dirty cutting whats left of the vehicles away from the mangled and/or dead people on the highways. I care so much in fact I spent 10 years lobbying every level of government to have rumble strips milled up the center line of all the major highways in Nova Scotia, which they are finally doing.

I wasn't actually targeting you on shrill.... comment. What you did regarding the roads is admirable! My point on firearm safety is that the same arguments of more laws vs. fewer laws probably won't ever get anything done, and if we all collectively re-focus on ideas that might be helpful, perhaps there's a chance for a more peaceful and safe environment. As to new ideas, refer to #57. I also liked the suggestion of finding out why all swiss citizens have automatic rifles at home and we never hear about them being mis-used.

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 02:29 PM
I wasn't actually targeting you on shrill.... comment. What you did regarding the roads is admirable! My point on firearm safety is that the same arguments of more laws vs. fewer laws probably won't ever get anything done, and if we all collectively re-focus on ideas that might be helpful, perhaps there's a chance for a more peaceful and safe environment. As to new ideas, refer to #57. I also liked the suggestion of finding out why all swiss citizens have automatic rifles at home and we never hear about them being mis-used.because Switzerland is a better educated and more cohesive society, with less income and social justice inequality and far less organized street crime than we have - its simple stupid really and doesn't really have anything at all to do with the relative amount of gun ownership. . .

Lew Barrett
10-25-2014, 02:29 PM
I also liked the suggestion of finding out why all swiss citizens have automatic rifles at home and we never hear about them being mis-used.

Read here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#Storage_of_military-issued_ammunition_by_militia_members)

Broadly:

Military weapons are not stored with their ammunition, nor is ammunition issued (generally) with the weapons.

It is illegal (except under specified and limited conditions) to carry or transport a loaded weapon.

And here's a key: all purchases must be permitted.

You can read about it in the link. They are considerably more regulated, and of course the regulations are universal. And, they are a wealthy and advanced culture.

Added: Be it noted that Swiss regulations are not as tight as most of their neighbors and while their homicide rates are far lower than they are here, they are not as low as most of their bordering states.

Canoeyawl
10-25-2014, 03:00 PM
Switzerland is in a different league...
No comparison to the US. First of all, they don't have a "South" that preys on individuals by keeping them ignorant for the benefit of a few. A system going back to plantation owners.

"The whole healthcare system is geared towards to the general goals of enhancing general public health and reducing costs while encouraging individual responsibility"
"Health insurance covers the costs of medical treatment and hospitalization of the insured. However, the insured person pays part of the cost of treatment. This is done (a) by means of an annual deductible (called the franchise), which ranges from CHF 300 (PPP-adjusted US$ 184) to a maximum of CHF 2,500 (PPP-adjusted $ 1,534) for an adult as chosen by the insured person (premiums are adjusted accordingly) and (b) by a charge of 10% of the costs over and above the excess up to a stop-loss amount of CHF 700 (PPP-adjusted $ 429).



Life Expectancy of the total population at birth from 2000 until 2011 in Switzerland compared to several other nations. Data source: OECD's iLibrary[7]
Switzerland has an infant mortality rate of about 3.6 out of 1,000. The general life expectancy in 2012 was for men 80.5 years compared to 84.7 years for women.[8] These are the world's best figures.[9]
wiki

BCarp
10-25-2014, 03:17 PM
The "availability of firearms" argument doesn't really work. Guns have been readily available on this continent for about 350 years, but school shootings (and mall and theater shootings) are a recent phenomenon historically. (And don't bring up technology! Multi-shot weapons have been available on the civilian market since the 1840's. Repeaters holding up to 13 rounds: the 1860's. Semi-autos arrived on the scene in the 1890's.) Other factors are at work unrelated to the presence of firearms; some societal rot that has affected our young people. Blaming the NRA is easy, but makes no sense at all. New laws? Everything this kid did is already illegal....

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 03:17 PM
because Switzerland is a better educated and more cohesive society, with less income and social justice inequality and far less organized street crime than we have - its simple stupid really and doesn't really have anything at all to do with the relative amount of gun ownership. . .

hey Paul... have you noticed this bit of bigotry
"First of all, they don't have a "South" that preys on individuals by keeping them ignorant for the benefit of a few" in post #66?

I don't think he's lying. I think he actually BELIEVES that

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 03:20 PM
The "availability of firearms" argument doesn't really work. Guns have been readily available on this continent for about 350 years, but school shootings (and mall and theater shootings) are a recent phenomenon historically. (And don't bring up technology! Multi-shot weapons have been available on the civilian market since the 1840's. Repeaters holding up to 13 rounds: the 1860's. Semi-autos arrived on the scene in the 1890's.) Other factors are at work unrelated to the presence of firearms; some societal rot that has affected our young people. Blaming the NRA is easy, but makes no sense at all. New laws? Everything this kid did is already illegal....

you will be aggressively ignored, as was I.

today the left has found a way to weaponize stupidity :)

Old Dryfoot
10-25-2014, 03:22 PM
The "availability of firearms" argument doesn't really work. . .

Really? So when little Billy or Cindy can get a gun as easy as opening a bedside table or a closet that has nothing to do with them shooting themselves or their siblings?

Old Dryfoot
10-25-2014, 03:23 PM
you will be aggressively ignored, as was I.

today the left has found a way to weaponize stupidity :)

Psst... you're aggressively ignoring my reply to one of your posts on the lead thread. ;)

skuthorp
10-25-2014, 03:24 PM
Collateral damage. These events are losing their power to shock, indeed loosing their newsworthiness. A very sad stste of affairs.

BCarp
10-25-2014, 03:25 PM
Really? So when little Billy or Cindy can get a gun as easy as opening a bedside table or a closet that has nothing to do with them shooting themselves or their siblings?

Of course you miss the point. Billy and Cindy could get their hands on guns easily in past decades. They did not take them to school and shoot people.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 03:26 PM
Really? So when little Billy or Cindy can get a gun as easy as opening a bedside table or a closet that has nothing to do with them shooting themselves or their siblings?

if you're talking about the op... I haven't heard that the kid got the gun from a bedside table... yet
gota link?

Peerie Maa
10-25-2014, 03:31 PM
hey Paul... have you noticed this bit of bigotry
"First of all, they don't have a "South" that preys on individuals by keeping them ignorant for the benefit of a few" in post #66?

I don't think he's lying. I think he actually BELIEVES that

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/09/texas-textbooks-promote-climate-change-denial-downplay-segregation

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/09/texas-textbooks-review-creationism-climate-denial

And there is evidence backing up those opinions too. ;)

Old Dryfoot
10-25-2014, 03:34 PM
Of course you miss the point. Billy and Cindy could get their hands on guns easily in past decades. They did not take them to school and shoot people.

Are you really going to play it like this? Do you want me to find some stories about young children, those too young to attend school, shoot themselves or their siblings? Your comment was about gun availability, you don't get to make it selective. They are either available or there not.

As for past decades; you would be OK with the the state of things as they are today simply because it was never a problem in the past?

BCarp
10-25-2014, 03:36 PM
Are you really going to play it like this? Do you want me to find some stories about young children, those too young to attend school, shoot themselves or their siblings? Your comment was about gun availability, you don't get to make it selective. They are either available or there not.

As for past decades; you would be OK with the the state of things as they are today simply because it was never a problem in the past?

Still missing the point. Guns have always been here. School shootings are recent. Explain this phenomenon.

Old Dryfoot
10-25-2014, 03:42 PM
Still missing the point. Guns have always been here. School shootings are recent. Explain this phenomenon.

July 26, 1764 - The first recorded shooting in a school in the USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

If you don't think increased numbers of guns leads to increased availability, ergo a rise in school shootings, then it's you who is missing the point.

Canoeyawl
10-25-2014, 03:42 PM
hey Paul... have you noticed this bit of bigotry
"First of all, they don't have a "South" that preys on individuals by keeping them ignorant for the benefit of a few" in post #66?

I don't think he's lying. I think he actually BELIEVES that

Literacy, would that be an indicator?

http://www.bettycjung.net/GraphicsBlog/Lowliteracy.gif

Canoeyawl
10-25-2014, 03:46 PM
How about general health? (Which can be directly related to education)

http://healthmap.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/how-healthy-is-your-state-e1266507276435.jpg

Hwyl
10-25-2014, 03:47 PM
Of course you miss the point. Billy and Cindy could get their hands on guns easily in past decades. They did not take them to school and shoot people.
I'd characterize 1979 as "past decades". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_%28San_Diego% 29

BCarp
10-25-2014, 03:47 PM
The percentage of households with guns present is decreasing, not increasing:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html?pagewanted=all
"Availability" of guns is less than it once was. So, unless the guns are suddenly becoming prescient talismen urging their owners to kill, some other factors are at work.

Old Dryfoot
10-25-2014, 03:56 PM
2000 people is a pretty small sample, and it's not a national survey either.

From your link.


Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for the National Rifle Association (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/national_rifle_association/index.html?inline=nyt-org), said he was skeptical that there had been a decline in household ownership. He pointed to reports of increased gun sales, to long waits for gun safety training classes and to the growing number of background checks, which have surged since the late 1990s, as evidence that ownership is rising.

Is the NRA lying?

Lew Barrett
10-25-2014, 04:07 PM
The "availability of firearms" argument doesn't really work. Guns have been readily available on this continent for about 350 years, but school shootings (and mall and theater shootings) are a recent phenomenon historically. (And don't bring up technology! Multi-shot weapons have been available on the civilian market since the 1840's. Repeaters holding up to 13 rounds: the 1860's. Semi-autos arrived on the scene in the 1890's.) Other factors are at work unrelated to the presence of firearms; some societal rot that has affected our young people. Blaming the NRA is easy, but makes no sense at all. New laws? Everything this kid did is already illegal....

Actually, all the suppositions you are attempting to make are unsupported by any real statistics. Have a ball reading the link below.

Link (http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1137&context=hsshonors)

In case you are trying to infer anything at all about or from American homicide stats, here are some Cliff notes. (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/23/us/historical-study-of-homicide-and-cities-surprises-the-experts.html)

We've always been a violent nation and the stats both reflect that and are all over the place. As for automatic weapons and their availability in the 19th Century, well technically I suppose. Explain why standard issue in the Civil War were weapons like the Springfield and Enfield rifle muskets, please. Repeating arms, including Colts, were so expensive that few could afford them. Indeed, it's a different world today, but with the ready availability of firearms, American homicide patterns remain frightfully difficult to come to terms with. Virtually the highest in the advanced (First) world.

Go ahead! Shoot from the hip!:)

Bubba L.
10-25-2014, 04:11 PM
it's been my observation that teens agonize over minutia... it's built into them and I don't think it can be talked away.
in helping to raise my own granddaughters, I have deliberately kept this in mind... what seems a small thing to many of us is insurmountable to a 15 year old... it is our job as the elders to help them to understand as much as can be understood and to remember that everyone is entitled to their own gut wrenching problems... such as Meghan's need to do her hair up for a night time football game... it is so much easier to help if one knows at some of what's going on inside that teen ager's head.

Helping them to organize their thoughts is not something to be done once then to be moved on from… it never stops (for the most part)… it is a process, not a chore

It's possible that a million gut wrenching things could get a teen here. It could be bigger things. It seems certain though that they don't go to bed one day and wake up the next with a sudden need to kill themselves and friends.


So, since 14 year old kids are emotional and unsettled it follows that they should have ready access to a good handgun, right?

Non sequitur... so it doesn't follow...

Bubba L.
10-25-2014, 04:22 PM
This is an area where I don't see how anything CAN be done. I've taken the position that we can make it very difficult to bring a gun into a school, theater, mall, etc. But I see no way to keep guns out of the hands of people who will use them to shoot other people.

Laws can be enacted requiring that guns be locked at all times as a start but then we need to embark on a plan to educate stupid and careless gun owners about the risks of leaving guns unsecured. Just such an education campaign was started in Mississippi a while back. Lots of billboards everywhere about locking guns. I haven't seen them recently but in the past I've seen groups passing out free trigger locks. It's not something that can be said once though, it kind of needs to be beaten into the population over the course of a generation. We humans are a dense lot. Also more adults need to be punished when their guns get into the hands of children.

Gene

Lew Barrett
10-25-2014, 04:26 PM
Also more adults need to be punished when their guns get into the hands of children.

Gene

Negligence is a just concern and I suspect will be found to be at play in respect to this crime.

BCarp
10-25-2014, 04:27 PM
July 26, 1764 - The first recorded shooting in a school in the USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

If you don't think increased numbers of guns leads to increased availability, ergo a rise in school shootings, then it's you who is missing the point.

Thanks for that link. I had not seen that listing before. But, note: nearly all of these incidents involve disputes between 2 or 3 individuals, or accidents - until recent years. I agree that personal arguments and disputes have often resulted in the use of deadly force, down through human history. I should have been clearer. I am referring to the mass attacks on random victims, as seen at Columbine and Sandy Hook, as being recent developments.

Bubba L.
10-25-2014, 04:34 PM
looks to me that the NRA has a lot of public sukpport... whodathunkit... the democracy people seem to be rather selective in what you want people to actually be democratic about :)

You said it right, sukpport! Their major supporters are the industry according to the study. Is this what you call a lot of public support? :)

Gene

Bubba L.
10-25-2014, 04:38 PM
are you in favor of outlawing motorcycles... ?

Nope, and unless it's been deleted I haven't seen anyone suggest banning guns either.


How about romances between 14 year olds?

In the interest of making Nick's prophecy in #14 false, what intervention(s) of any sort do you recommend? If you've none, and only critiques of others', then you're implicitly accepting collateral damage in order to keep something you consider more important than those lives.

Yep.

Gene

Bubba L.
10-25-2014, 04:40 PM
I'm in favor of licensing them and making sure their riders pass a test, and making sure they are roadworthy. How about doing that with guns?

That deserves a big thumbs up! Y>

Gene

Bubba L.
10-25-2014, 04:49 PM
I tried googling to find the number of new gun laws vs new traffic laws, with little success. I would be interested to know how they compared. I know the state I live in is constantly passing new firearm laws, as are cities. Of course passing a law, and passing a good law are 2 different things. Perhaps the best idea I've heard on these threads is to institute a massive propaganda campaign to make firearm safety and non-violence as sexy as a threesome with angolina Jolie and Kim basinger.

OK but substitute say Sandra Bullock for Angiolina Jolie.

Gene

Bubba L.
10-25-2014, 04:53 PM
Ah yes the cry of the oppressed. . .

I'll let you in on a little secret. I live in a country that has laws which are seen as draconian by some in the US, yet we have access to virtually the exact same firearms that you do. We just do it with common sense regulations designed to protect the population.

What we don't have is a never ending stream of school shooting and dead children due to carelessness.

Now if you really want to see some appreciation for one's concern, you would stop focusing on your own self interests and take an honest look at the toll guns have on your own country. The parents of thousands of dead children will thank you.

But... But... But... it's my gun!!!!!

Please note the above was sarcasm.

Gene

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 04:56 PM
You said it right, sukpport! Their major supporters are the industry according to the study. Is this what you call a lot of public support? :)

Gene

a fiction created by people who "keep people ignorant" to refer to another post

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 04:59 PM
Nope, and unless it's been deleted I haven't seen anyone suggest banning guns either.





Gene

it's been repeated year after year ... how far back do you want to go to find where gun banning has been suggested?

surely you didn't intend to argue your point in isolation from the evidence?

Bubba L.
10-25-2014, 04:59 PM
hey Paul... have you noticed this bit of bigotry
"First of all, they don't have a "South" that preys on individuals by keeping them ignorant for the benefit of a few" in post #66?

I don't think he's lying. I think he actually BELIEVES that

It's not bigotry to notice what's going on.

Gene

Memphis Mike
10-25-2014, 05:03 PM
We ask ourselves what has changed since we were kids. This is one thing to be sure. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hyla-cass-md/is-it-drugs-not-guns-that_b_2393385.html

Bubba L.
10-25-2014, 05:04 PM
July 26, 1764 - The first recorded shooting in a school in the USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

If you don't think increased numbers of guns leads to increased availability, ergo a rise in school shootings, then it's you who is missing the point.

So it's not a new thing... I wonder how Bcarp and PA will dismiss this.

Gene

Bubba L.
10-25-2014, 05:10 PM
it's been repeated year after year ... how far back do you want to go to find where gun banning has been suggested?

surely you didn't intend to argue your point in isolation from the evidence?

Your comment as stated seemed to be about bilge posts not what some in the nation are saying. Very few actually support complete bans. Here we're discussing regulation so bringing up the banning group is deflection.

Gene

BCarp
10-25-2014, 05:44 PM
So it's not a new thing... I wonder how Bcarp and PA will dismiss this.

Gene

I don't dismiss it. See #88^

Lew Barrett
10-25-2014, 06:58 PM
What makes the latest incident other than "a personal dispute?" Moreover, what difference is there in having children shot because somebody was angry at them or having them shot because somebody was angry at everything? It's a pretty fine line, don't you think?

One does wish that unhappy creatures seeking a way out of their misery wouldn't feel so compelled to take others with them. I'm sure we can agree on that.

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 07:01 PM
I don't think so. Sadly the NRA has become the voice of those who believe there should be no restrictions on firearms including on how they are stored. And the NRA is funded by.............follow the money.......do you suppose the manufacturers of said firearms and ammunition send money to the NRA ???? Camel crap.

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 07:14 PM
I blame the shooter above all else. What a silly idea. The Parlor has just spent 100 posts establishing that the NRA is the root of all (gun) evil.

CWSmith
10-25-2014, 07:17 PM
I don't think so. Sadly the NRA has become the voice of those who believe there should be no restrictions on firearms including on how they are stored. And the NRA is funded by.............follow the money.......do you suppose the manufacturers of said firearms and ammunition send money to the NRA ????


Camel crap.

What part of this is "camel crap"?

The NRA itself brags about fighting gun laws: http://www.nraila.org/ .

According to Business Insider less than half of the NRA funding comes from its programs and dues:

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1 .

Steve seems remarkably accurate. Where's the camel?

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 07:17 PM
What a silly idea.where does a fourteen year old boy get a gun?

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 07:21 PM
where does a fourteen year old boy get a gun? Not from the NRA.

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 07:24 PM
Not from the NRA.the nra fights common sense movements to require that guns be stored in locked safes or with trigger locks - that's enough for me to find them untenable. . .

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 07:26 PM
the nra fights common sense movements to require that guns be stored in locked safes or with trigger locks - that's enough for me to find them untenable. . . That is a blatant untruth.

Durnik
10-25-2014, 07:32 PM
The anti-gun crowd has essentially overlooked this (8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission)) goal because they push too hard towards their other agenda items.

I believe you are wrong. The gun control (note: _not_ anti gun) crowd is very much strongly for locks & safes being used - at all times a fire arm is not in a legitimate users possession. I very much remember the hoplophiles shooting down any regulations concerning said locks/safes. Back to the NRA, they tolerate _no_ laws concerning firearms - including a requirement for the use of locks/safes - even tho the use of locks/safes would drastically diminish accidental & intentional deaths by firearms.

I'll repeat - if 2nd amendment fans want to control firearm legislation, they had best put forth some rules that the gun control crowd can live with & will therefore support - or, they'll find the more extreme of the gun control crowd will eventually pass some laws those 2nd amendment fans can't (but will have to) live with. One very big step the gun control crowd would support the 2nd amendment supporters on is mandatory locks & safes (with secured keys & combinations).

enjoy
bobby

johnw
10-25-2014, 07:38 PM
We ask ourselves what has changed since we were kids. This is one thing to be sure. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hyla-cass-md/is-it-drugs-not-guns-that_b_2393385.html

Thanks, Mike, that's a shocker.


A recent study of reports to the FDA of drug-induced violence has demonstrated that antidepressant users have an 840% increased rate of violence. See also Robert Whitakers' article (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201101/psychiatric-drugs-and-violence-review-fda-data-finds-link) on the subject.

The National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db76.htm) reports the rate of antidepressant use in this country among teens and adults increased by almost 400% between 1988-1994 and 2005-2008.


Despite international drug regulators warning that these drugs can cause mania, psychosis, hallucinations, suicide and homicidal ideation, Congress has yet to investigate the role of psychiatric drugs in the vast majority of school shootings. Could this be due to the enormous influence of the pharmaceutical industry on the media? Has there been a purposeful media black-out here?

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 07:41 PM
That is a blatant untruth.a thank you letter from the NRA to its supporters, posted directly on the NRA's website, one of dozens. . .


Colorado’s mandatory storage bill was defeated by a vote of 9 to 1 in the Senate Appropriations Committee. SB49 would have forced adults to store all their firearms under lock and key or face an undetermined misdemeanor penalty if a firearm was later used in a suicide or crime. This dangerous bill would have rendered homeowners defenseless and given criminals a clear advantage in home invasions. If passed, SB49 would have added to the already cumbersome bureaucracy that affects gun shops, gun shows, or anywhere else firearms are sold, by requiring them to post a sign informing gun owners that they must lock up their guns. Thank you to all of the NRA members and gun owners who called their elected officials in opposition to this bill.

johnw
10-25-2014, 07:43 PM
A quick Google search reveals the NRA supports safe gun storage in the home, but falls short of recommending a safe.

Anyone have a link to an article where the NRA fought safe gun storage legislation? I'm guessing it would have to be at the State level or lower.

Well, we could just take their word for it that they are against gun storage legislation.


http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/1999/the-hidden-agenda-behind-gun-storage-la.aspx
anti-gun politicians, and the anti-gun groups are working to turn "safe storage" into a tool for disarming the American public.

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 07:45 PM
A quick Google search reveals the NRA supports safe gun storage in the home, but falls short of recommending a safe.

Anyone have a link to an article where the NRA fought safe gun storage legislation? I'm guessing it would have to be at the State level or lower. The NRA sponsors numerous firearms training activities where gun storage and handlng are covered along with other subjects. If the NRA opposed a specific state intiative I'm sure there was a specific reason.

johnw
10-25-2014, 07:47 PM
The NRA sponsors numerous firearms training activities where gun storage and handlng are covered along with other subjects. If the NRA opposed a specific state intiative I'm sure there was a specific reason.

There is. They oppose safe-storage legislation.

Old Dryfoot
10-25-2014, 07:47 PM
That is a blatant untruth.

Check your facts.

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2014/9/new-jersey-senate-to-vote-on-flawed-bill-that-could-imprison-gun-owners.aspx?s=&st=&ps=

Today, the New Jersey Senate is scheduled to vote on Senate Bill 516 (http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2014/Bills/S1000/516_I1.PDF). This legislation seeks to increase the penalties applied when a minor gains access to a firearm. So-called “safe storage laws” are inherently misguided as they render firearms useless for self-defense by making them inaccessible when seconds matter. S.516 is no exception. If enacted, S.516 could result in the parent of a minor who has accessed their firearm for justified self-defense to be charged with penalties that could include up to three to five years in prison. With the media full of reports of how New Jersey gun control laws continue to ensnare law-abiding gun owners with technicalities rather than prevent criminals from committing crimes, S.516 would just add to a long list of misguided and ill-conceived gun control laws in New Jersey.

Just a sleazy bag of lies and misdirection.

Meanwhile children are dying...

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 07:52 PM
A quick Google search reveals the NRA supports safe gun storage in the home, but falls short of recommending a safe.

Anyone have a link to an article where the NRA fought safe gun storage legislation? I'm guessing it would have to be at the State level or lower.

the fact of the matter is the NRA fights any and all new gun legislation at all levels; by way of example find me a piece of proposed gun safety legislation that the NRA supports. . .

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 08:14 PM
That is a blatant untruth.

i do believe hanley just called me a liar. . .

The NRA's official legislative policy position on gun safes and trigger locks has not been updated in fifteen years. Here it is:


President Clinton in 1997 demonstrated his support for "trigger lock" legislation by issuing an executive order mandating trigger locks on the firearms of all federal law enforcement officers. In general, mandatory storage legislation seeks to require that firearms kept in the home be stored with a trigger or gun-locking device, under lock and key, or in another approved way.
Everyone knows that firearms must be stored safely, but most Americans feel that it is not the government`s business to dictate how people store things in their homes. There is no compelling need for such invasions of privacy for the following reasons:
Today, fatal firearm accidents are at an all-time low.
While the number of privately owned firearms has quadrupled since 1930, the annual number of fatal firearm accidents has declined by 62%. Firearms are involved in 1.5% of accidental fatalities nationwide, far behind the deaths due to motor vehicle accident (47%), falling (15%), poisoning (10%), drowning (4%), fire (3%), suffocation on an ingested object (3%) and other causes. (National Safety Council, National Center for Health Statistics)
Mandatory storage laws that exact penalties are unnecessary.
Most states already provide penalties for reckless endangerment, under which an adult found grossly negligent in the storage of a firearm under certain circumstances can be prosecuted for a felony offense.
Universal mandatory storage requirements are counterproductive.
No "one size fits all" requirement can possibly meet the needs of all American gun owners, whose circumstances vary greatly. For example, gun owners without children in their homes may have different storage needs than those with children present. Gun owners who live in high-rise apartments may have different needs than those who live on isolated farms or ranches. NRA`s firearm safety manuals recommend that firearms kept at home be stored inaccessible to unauthorized persons, including children. NRA believes that it is and should remain the responsibility of the individual firearm owner, not the government, to determine how to ensure that guns are safely stored.
In an emergency, a trigger lock can handicap a person who needs a gun for protection.
While firearms kept only for hunting, target shooting or as collector`s items should be stored unloaded, firearms kept for personal protection may be better stored ready for use. Some trigger lock manufacturers recommend that their products not be used on loaded firearms.
Trigger locks and other such devices can fail.
Trigger locks do not make firearms foolproof and are not substitutes for safe firearms handling practices, dictated by long standing safety rules. Reliance on devices, rather than safety rules, can instill a false sense of security that can lead to problems when a device-less firearm is encountered.
Compliance with storage laws is not likely.
Irresponsible people are not likely to obey a law that merely restates their inherent responsibilities.
Enforcement of a storage law could lead to abuses of civil liberties.
Enforcement of a storage law could lead to searches of homes in violation of Fourth Amendment protections. Additionally, arbitrary storage requirements might be imposed. Many American gun owners and civil libertarians are familiar with the British experience with mandatory storage laws and don`t want to see that history repeat itself here. Dating back to the 17th Century, the right to keep and bear arms had a proud tradition in Britain, but passage of the Firearms Act of 1920 shattered that heritage. Suddenly, citizens could possess rifles and pistols only if they could prove they had "good reason" for receiving a police permit--a "firearms certificate." Self-defense, at that time, was considered a "good reason."
In 1936, British police began adding the following requirement for firearms certificates: "The firearms and ammunition to which this certificate relates must at all times when not in actual use be kept in a secure place with a view to preventing access to them by unauthorized persons." Today, in Britain, self-defense is no longer an accepted "good reason" for owning a gun (a dangerously absurd notion that the organization formerly known as Handgun Control, Inc. pushes in this country). In some areas, police will neither issue or renew a firearms or shotgun (added in 1989) certificate without first conducting an in-home visit to ensure that their standards for safe storage are being met. There is no legal authority for these inspections, but if a gun owner refuses to open his door to the police, his certificate is not approved. In many jurisdictions police not only require gun safes, but arbitrarily change the standards for those safes. In many districts, an acceptable safe is one that can withstand a half-hour attack by a burglar possessing a full set of safe-cracking tools. Finally, enforcement of a storage law would divert police from crime-fighting duties.
"Feel-good" legislation is not the same thing as good legislation.
Rather than imposing ineffective laws, NRA believes education is the way to further reduce firearm-related accidents. Nationwide, NRA`s 46,000 Certified Instructors and Coaches train three-quarters of a million trainees each year. Separately, NRA`s award-winning "Eddie Eagle GunSafe®" education program for children in grades pre-K through 6th grade has reached nearly 17 million students nationwide.




If the NRA opposed a specific state intiative I'm sure there was a specific reason.

rofl

Hwyl
10-25-2014, 08:28 PM
I blame the shooter above all else. Most other people blame easy access to guns, didn't you have an argument with your best friend when you were 14, if you didn't you surely witnessed one.


Unfortunately, motorcycle accident and death rates are still way higher, as much 35 time higher, than automobiles.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety

That despite licensing, road tests, and inspections.

(Does any State actually inspect motorcycles for 'roadworthy' condition?)

Will licensing, training, and overall condition of a firearm reduce gun deaths? Seems to me, training people to shoot, and making sure guns are in good working order might increase the number of victims, if the licensed gun owner decides to kill people.

The motorcycle argument was brought in by Phillip, I was answering him directly. Anyone knows motorcycles are more dangerous than cars, are you trying to say they'd be less dangerous if there was less training and licensing?

Every gun training course I've taken has emphasised safety and responsibility, I know the ones you've taken have too.

Sheesh Brian.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:32 PM
It comes down to personal responsibility. Not sure how this 14 yo had access to guns - but someone dropped the ball. I've a grandson now, who will soon have the run of our, and my daughters, place. When I was a kid, our guns were in the corner of the closet - and the thought of shooting someone, unthinkable. Society was different then; TV shows/violence were different. Times have changed. All of our guns are in the 'safe'; education will precede access.

You forget the cowboys and Indians we watched?

The Bigfella
10-25-2014, 08:33 PM
Unfortunately, motorcycle accident and death rates are still way higher, as much 35 time higher, than automobiles.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety

That despite licensing, road tests, and inspections.

(Does any State actually inspect motorcycles for 'roadworthy' condition?)

Will licensing, training, and overall condition of a firearm reduce gun deaths? Seems to me, training people to shoot, and making sure guns are in good working order might increase the number of victims, if the licensed gun owner decides to kill people.

You fail to point out how many of the deaths of those motorcyclists are caused by car and truck drivers. That's like accusing the school shooting victims of causing their deaths because they got in front of an innocent bullet.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:36 PM
responsible for a death... ?!

does that make supporters of cars and motorcycles and raw milk all child killers, then?
Childish response, Of all these things, only guns, when properly used, kill people.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:38 PM
Do you know of any place where it's legal for a 14 year old to possess/carry a handgun? Do facts matter, or is stale rhetoric the only substance that counts?

I think this country has reached a point, long ago, where we cannot keep guns out of the hands of children, mentally ill people, or anyone else. Any legislation aimed at doing so is, IMO, a fool's errand.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:40 PM
Yes. Except maybe the insurance part. Of course, if your guns are safely stored insurance becomes a mute point.

I like the insurance part.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:41 PM
Seems to me like not caring about young people dying on roads, but being shrill and self-righteous when a firearm is involved, says perhaps it's not the dying that matters.

I don't see your point. We have speed limits, seat belts, air bags, etc. in vehicles in efforts to prevent injury or death. What do we have with guns?

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:44 PM
I tried googling to find the number of new gun laws vs new traffic laws, with little success. I would be interested to know how they compared. I know the state I live in is constantly passing new firearm laws, as are cities. Of course passing a law, and passing a good law are 2 different things. Perhaps the best idea I've heard on these threads is to institute a massive propaganda campaign to make firearm safety and non-violence as sexy as a threesome with angolina Jolie and Kim basinger.

It's hard to have an unregistered car; takes up space. I am sick of the daily reports of someone being shot in my area. At the same time, NO ONE has suggested any legislation that has a chance in hell to work.

We cannot, IMO, get the guns out of the hands of people who are willing to kill people. We CAN make it virtually impossible to bring those guns into a school, a mall, etc.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 08:46 PM
It's possible that a million gut wrenching things could get a teen here. It could be bigger things. It seems certain though that they don't go to bed one day and wake up the next with a sudden need to kill themselves and friends.



Non sequitur... so it doesn't follow...

we need to check with the non sequitur guy... he sets the standards... Lew?


Non sequitur
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29) Provided in the hope it will help you in making valid comparisons in future discussions.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:48 PM
I'm one of two or three here who've regularly suggested that approach. Thanks for noticing.

It's far preferable to giving up Constitutional rights.

Funny, I think the first step is interpreting the constitution properly. The "Militia" described and defined in the Constitution was quite different from what the "Militia" of today is.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 08:49 PM
Childish response, Of all these things, only guns, when properly used, kill people.

I use my guns properly and they have killed (or injured) no one at all... so explain your silly comment, please

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:50 PM
Why yes, facts _do_ matter.

Glen mentioned 'limiting access' - nothing was said about the legality of 14 yo's possessing/carrying. The most obvious answer to Glen's (most excellent) concern is requiring _all_ firearms to be locked up when not in a legal users hand - meaning no storing in the closet behind daddy's suit where junior can grab it at his convenience.

That do 'er for ya - or do you still prefer (stale) mis-direction?



eta:


And I'm on record as saying that you really need to propose action/laws you can live with.. like the above - because if you don't, you will find others proposing (& eventually, passing) laws you don't want to live with.

Meaning, talk to your pet.., er, boss, the NRA & see what happens.

enjoy
bobby

How do you enforce laws about gun storage sans the ability to make unannounced searches?

TomF
10-25-2014, 08:50 PM
Phillip, some time ago in this thread I asked you a direct question. What proposals do you have which would help make Nick's prediction in #14 not come true? Which would help something change between this time and the next shooting.

If you've no proposals or ideas, this implicitly means that you're willing to accept the current casualty rate as collateral damage, because you value something else more highly than those lives.

Which is it?

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 08:52 PM
Phillip, some time ago in this thread I asked you a direct question. What proposals do you have which would help make Nick's prediction in #14 not come true? Which would help something change between this time and the next shooting.

If you've no proposals or ideas, this implicitly means that you're willing to accept the current casualty rate as collateral damage, because you value something else more highly than those lives.

Which is it?

non sequitur... :)

John Smith
10-25-2014, 08:53 PM
The "availability of firearms" argument doesn't really work. Guns have been readily available on this continent for about 350 years, but school shootings (and mall and theater shootings) are a recent phenomenon historically. (And don't bring up technology! Multi-shot weapons have been available on the civilian market since the 1840's. Repeaters holding up to 13 rounds: the 1860's. Semi-autos arrived on the scene in the 1890's.) Other factors are at work unrelated to the presence of firearms; some societal rot that has affected our young people. Blaming the NRA is easy, but makes no sense at all. New laws? Everything this kid did is already illegal....

I agree. And those laws didn't stop this event. It is one thing to have a law. It is another thing to have a law that is enforceable and works.

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 08:54 PM
this implicitly means that you're willing to accept the current casualty rate as collateral damage, because you value something else more highly than those lives.yup

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 08:55 PM
Phillip, some time ago in this thread I asked you a direct question. What proposals do you have which would help make Nick's prediction in #14 not come true? Which would help something change between this time and the next shooting.

If you've no proposals or ideas, this implicitly means that you're willing to accept the current casualty rate as collateral damage, because you value something else more highly than those lives.

Which is it?

don't try to be a bogart... you aren't very good at it

you too Paul

RIDICULOUS!

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 08:56 PM
don't try to be a bogart... you aren't very good at itReduced to insulting one of the most polite, reasonable, and open minded individuals on this forum. Pathetic. . .

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 08:58 PM
reduced to insults, pathetic

care to go back and look to see who has been insulting in their posts here?

Paul Pless
10-25-2014, 09:00 PM
hasn't been tom

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 09:04 PM
hasn't been tom

are you saying that non sequiturs come only from me and that Tom represents all others?

try explaining the non sequiturs from me... do a good job and try to make sense

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 09:05 PM
Reduced to insulting one of the most polite, reasonable, and open minded individuals on this forum. Pathetic. . .

I SAID he wasn't very good at it :)

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 09:07 PM
Wow! 10 days and counting - the hysteria level is rising.

John Smith
10-25-2014, 09:09 PM
I use my guns properly and they have killed (or injured) no one at all... so explain your silly comment, please
None of the things you listed are designed for he purpose of killing, except the guns. That doesn't seem too difficult to see. A hammer can kill, but that is not its intended purpose.

I don't support the gun control efforts, because I've seen nothing suggested that can be enforced.

I also believe our founders where quite clear that the purpose of the second Amendment was singular. It was necessary [at the time] to maintain a well-regulated [by the government] Militia. That Militia, as defined within the constitution served the purpose of police and army. Once we had military, police, national guard, the second amendment became effectively moot. The constitution clearly says in Art 1, Section 8, that the government had the responsibility arm and train, and call up when needed, the Militia.

All that said, if we had no 2nd Amendment, there would be nothing in the constitution prohibiting people from owning guns. Regulating that ownership would be easier without the misconstrued 2nd Amendment.

We don't have the luxury of starting where we'd like to be. We have to start from where we are. SO MANY guns are already out "there' that I simply don't see any legislation working. Guns are immortal. Every gun sold, pretty much, is still in existence, but the people who originally acquired them are, possibly, long dead.

There's no practical way to control any of this. You can't enforce laws pertaining to how they're stored unless you have unannounced home searches. The only thing such laws will do is help convict and punish after the fact, IF THE SHOOTER HASN'T SHOT HIMSELF.

The Bigfella
10-25-2014, 09:09 PM
are you saying that non sequiturs come only from me and that Tom represents all others?

try explaining the non sequiturs from me... do a good job and try to make sense

Phillip, trying to make sense to you is really difficult when you always adopt the same position

http://socialjusticefirst.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/head-sand.gif

John Smith
10-25-2014, 09:10 PM
Phillip, some time ago in this thread I asked you a direct question. What proposals do you have which would help make Nick's prediction in #14 not come true? Which would help something change between this time and the next shooting.

If you've no proposals or ideas, this implicitly means that you're willing to accept the current casualty rate as collateral damage, because you value something else more highly than those lives.

Which is it?
I don't think this is a fair question. I hate all these deaths, but I can't think of a way to change things.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 09:13 PM
I don't think this is a fair question. I hate all these deaths, but I can't think of a way to change things.

Ridiculous! :)

(don't forget that your lack of ideas means you approve of the killings... )

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 09:22 PM
After all the fuss it turns out the 14 year old in question, together with whoever delivered the gun to him or permitted him to have it, was already in violation of state law: http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.040

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 09:24 PM
After all the fuss it turns out the 14 year old in question, together with whoever delivered the gun to him or permitted him to have it, was already in violation state law: http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.040

we all already knew that... except Glen, of course


So, since 14 year old kids are emotional and unsettled it follows that they should have ready access to a good handgun, right?

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 09:32 PM
The NRA clearly teaches and preaches the safe storage of firearms. This is one of many sites illustrating their position. This does not preclude opposition to specific proposed laws deemed unwise. http://eddieeagle.nra.org/information-for-parents.aspx

CWSmith
10-25-2014, 09:41 PM
(don't forget that your lack of ideas means you approve of the killings... )

I think this is one of the most offensive and deeply disturbed statements I have ever read in The Bilge.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 09:45 PM
I think this is one of the most offensive and deeply disturbed statements I have ever read in The Bilge.

chase it back to the guy who originated it... he's right above

here ya go, I decided to help ya


Phillip, some time ago in this thread I asked you a direct question. What proposals do you have which would help make Nick's prediction in #14 not come true? Which would help something change between this time and the next shooting.

If you've no proposals or ideas, this implicitly means that you're willing to accept the current casualty rate as collateral damage, because you value something else more highly than those lives.

Which is it?

Old Dryfoot
10-25-2014, 09:51 PM
This is pointless...

CWSmith
10-25-2014, 09:53 PM
Phillip, check your dictionary. Approve and accept do not mean the same thing. I accept that the stupidity of this thread will continue with people defending the NRA, but I do not approve of it.

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 09:54 PM
This is safety? Not to be tedious, but go a bit further in the link.

Old Dryfoot
10-25-2014, 09:56 PM
Not to be tedious, but go a bit further in the link.

Yea... you mean that limp little suggestion to see your gun shop and figure it out for yourself? The bit right down at the bottom of the page?

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 09:57 PM
The NRA clearly teaches and preaches the safe storage of firearms. This is one of many sites illustrating their position. This does not preclude opposition to specific proposed laws deemed unwise. http://eddieeagle.nra.org/information-for-parents.aspx

they already knew that, Hanley... either that or they are complete fools

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 09:58 PM
Phillip, check your dictionary. Approve and accept do not mean the same thing. I accept that the stupidity of this thread will continue with people defending the NRA, but I do not approve of it.

how very sly of you :)

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 10:00 PM
Yea... you mean that limp little suggestion to see your gun shop and figure it out for yourself? The bit right down at the bottom of the page?Your examination of the link smacks of (shall we coin a phrase?) creative ignorance.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 10:02 PM
Your examination of the link smacks of (shall we coin a phrase?) creative ignorance.

well said :)

Durnik
10-25-2014, 10:12 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Memphis Mike http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4335361#post4335361)

We ask ourselves what has changed since we were kids. This is one thing to be sure. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hyla-c...b_2393385.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hyla-cass-md/is-it-drugs-not-guns-that_b_2393385.html)



Thanks, Mike, that's a shocker.


A recent study of reports to the FDA of drug-induced violence has demonstrated that antidepressant users have an 840% increased rate of violence. See also Robert Whitakers' article (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201101/psychiatric-drugs-and-violence-review-fda-data-finds-link) on the subject.

The National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db76.htm) reports the rate of antidepressant use in this country among teens and adults increased by almost 400% between 1988-1994 and 2005-2008.


Despite international drug regulators warning that these drugs can cause mania, psychosis, hallucinations, suicide and homicidal ideation, Congress has yet to investigate the role of psychiatric drugs in the vast majority of school shootings. Could this be due to the enormous influence of the pharmaceutical industry on the media? Has there been a purposeful media black-out here?

Forget the details, (& as much as I despise the pharmaceutical industry) but ISTR a link between the NRA & Congress working to keep medical information out of gun death stats.

& I agree, thanks, Mike - I had heard of problems with anti-depressants & violence/suicide, but the extent is greater than I imagined.

enjoy
bobby

Phillip Allen
10-25-2014, 10:18 PM
We ask ourselves what has changed since we were kids. This is one thing to be sure. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hyla-cass-md/is-it-drugs-not-guns-that_b_2393385.html

"A common thread amongst the most horrific school shootings of the past 25 years is that the majority of the shooters were taking a psychiatric medication."

crickets, Mike... they're not interested in that information

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 10:31 PM
Well, it looks like the only way to make Phillip and Hanley and the NRA take some responsibility for the gun deaths in the US is to take some of their gun rights away from them as soon as possible.
Too bad they waited for us Democrats to begin grabbing their guns before they took any positive actions on their own initiative...tsk, tsk! There's fixing to be a lot fewer of them Democrats around to effectuate that eventuality, Jouster.:D

Steve McMahon
10-25-2014, 10:33 PM
"A common thread amongst the most horrific school shootings of the past 25 years is that the majority of the shooters were taking a psychiatric medication."

crickets, Mike... they're not interested in that information

A very good point Dr. Phil.
All the more reason for a federal law requiring firearms to be stored under lock and key and kept away from children and people with mental challenges. It seems to work in other civilized places. Check the stats, they don't lie.

hanleyclifford
10-25-2014, 10:48 PM
A very good point Dr. Phil.
All the more reason for a federal law requiring firearms to be stored under lock and key and kept away from children and people with mental challenges. It seems to work in other civilized places. Check the stats, they don't lie. It would be interesting to know if the 14 year old in question or his parents were NRA members and if they had made any firearms training available to the child. If the parents were NRA members they could hardly have escaped the constant admonitions about gun storage and safety that pervade the literature of the NRA.

Steve McMahon
10-25-2014, 11:11 PM
It would be interesting to know if the 14 year old in question or his parents were NRA members and if they had made any firearms training available to the child. If the parents were NRA members they could hardly have escaped the constant admonitions about gun storage and safety that pervade the literature of the NRA.

Smoke and mirrors. If this was the only case of a kid in the US getting a hold of a firearm and blasting away you could have a point. It is not. The NRA lobby has fought tooth and nail against any federal laws with regards to safe storage. Education is great for people who are reasonably logical. If everyone was logical we wouldn't need any laws. We need laws to give stupid people limits. Sadly there seem to be a lot of stupid people. Look at seat belts for example - anyone with two clues that are distant cousins can figure out they are a good idea, but we need laws to make the stupid people buckle up.

Horace
10-25-2014, 11:35 PM
a thank you letter from the NRA to its supporters, posted directly on the NRA's website, one of dozens. . .


Colorado’s mandatory storage bill was defeated by a vote of 9 to 1 in the Senate Appropriations Committee. SB49 would have forced adults to store all their firearms under lock and key or face an undetermined misdemeanor penalty if a firearm was later used in a suicide or crime. This dangerous bill would have rendered homeowners defenseless and given criminals a clear advantage in home invasions. If passed, SB49 would have added to the already cumbersome bureaucracy that affects gun shops, gun shows, or anywhere else firearms are sold, by requiring them to post a sign informing gun owners that they must lock up their guns. Thank you to all of the NRA members and gun owners who called their elected officials in opposition to this bill.Here is commentary from an admittedly conservative site about the 2008 bill, SB49:

"'We have a good balance right now between the need to keep kids from misusing guns and the right of homeowners to be able to defend their families. This bill would upset that balance by giving home intruders the upper hand and tying the hands of homeowners... This bill likely would have a chilling effect on gun ownership.'

"Originally, Bill 49 stated that it applied if a gun owner 'reasonably should know that a minor would be able to gain access to the firearm' without permission. And who gets to decide what's "reasonable?" Prosecutors, some of whom are unfriendly toward defensive gun ownership. The committee dropped that language in favor of a line that says the bill applies in cases of 'criminal negligence.' In other words, you commit 'criminal negligence' if you commit 'criminal negligence' -- again as determined by prosecutors.

"Another problem with the bill is that it says it doesn't apply if a minor obtains the gun through burglary or robbery. So does the criminal prosecution of the gun owner hinge upon the criminal conviction of the minor? Who decides whether the minor should face charges? Apparently, again the prosecutor gets to make the call.

"Of course, while many Colorado Democrats don't express this motivation, many activists who favor storage laws, waiting periods, and other restrictions ultimately want to ban the use and ownership of guns, at least for defensive purposes."

Laws regarding criminal negligence already exist. SB49 specifically targeted legitimate gun owners with a law vague enough to encourage abuse.

The Bigfella
10-26-2014, 03:57 AM
I think that's the issue the NRA also has with safe storage bills.

A certain percentage of the population keeps guns for home defense. If they are then required to lock them up, it could have negative affects on their use in that situation.

I seem to recall the Supreme Court is pretty pro-self defense when it comes to firearms.

And therein lies half the problem. The widespread availability allows that use to gain support.

We removed that issue from the equation here. Sporting use / hunting is still fine - self defence is not.

I'll never want to swap ours for yours... and I've still got my 4 guns

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 04:24 AM
I'd like to examin the notion that it's wrong to defend oneself from danger and death...

The Bigfella
10-26-2014, 04:25 AM
I'd like to examin the notion that it's wrong to defend oneself from danger and death...

Who said that was the notion?

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 05:22 AM
A certain percentage of the population keeps guns for home defense. If they are then required to lock them up, it could have negative affects on their use in that situation.There are w ide variety of safe storage solutions which offer quick access to the firearm if needed for defense. I believe one of ver our very own forum members, one of the few here legitimately has used a weapon in self defense (not once, but twice) owns and uses such a bedside vault. He claims it is zero inconvenience. The variety of solutions incude push button combinations, keyed safes, as well as so called 'smart safes' and even smart guns. The slowest of these to access is a vault which requires that a four digit code be entered on a number pad - it takes me less than half a second to enter such a code to unlock my cell phone.

What common sense argument have you or the NRA against such a storage solution?

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 05:22 AM
I'd like to examin the notion that it's wrong to defend oneself from danger and death...go for it

Peerie Maa
10-26-2014, 06:07 AM
I'd like to examin the notion that it's wrong to defend oneself from danger and death...

What is the real probability that you might actually face such a risk? Any published satatistics?

In the UK the data states:

Burglary risks - tenure and location Average risk 2.5% (1.5% with entry and 1% attempts)
The local area is poorly maintained 5.4% (The BCS call this high physical disorder)
People lived in the home less than a year 4.6%
The home is social rented accommodation 4.2%
The home is private rented accommodation 3.7%
The home is located in an urban area 2.8%
The local area is well maintained 2.2% (The BCS call this no physical disorder)
The home is owned by the occupier 1.7%
People lived there for more than 10 years 1.7%
The home is located in a rural area 1.1%
Now although those of you who live in the countryside may feel vulnerable to burglary because of your isolation the statistics seem to suggest that it’s those who live in our towns and cities that suffer most burglary. That’s probably because most of the criminals live in the urban areas and there’s a greater reward from committing burglary in a place where there are lots of targets grouped together.

so on average we might suffer an actual burglary in 1.5% of the housholds in all England. I could not find statistics for the number of burglaries with the house holder at home rather than away.

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 06:31 AM
What is the real probability that you might actually face such a risk? Any published satatistics?

In the UK the data states:
so on average we might suffer an actual burglary in 1.5% of the housholds in all England. I could not find statistics for the number of burglaries with the house holder at home rather than away.

I would rather discuss the notion that we shouldn't be able to defend ourselves... not the probability of whether or not we might need to

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 06:33 AM
I would rather discuss the notion that we shouldn't be able to defend ourselves... we're waiting, what have you got?

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 06:35 AM
we're waiting, what have you got?

well... I think self defence is a right I wouldn't want to be decided by somebody from Oz or the UK or anybody else, for that matter

skuthorp
10-26-2014, 06:49 AM
http://www.askingsmarterquestions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Ostrich-man-head-in-sand.gif

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 06:55 AM
http://www.askingsmarterquestions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Ostrich-man-head-in-sand.gif

NO, thanks... you're not my type

The Bigfella
10-26-2014, 07:33 AM
NO, thanks... you're not my type

Hmmm.... you didn't say that about me when I posted it. Guess I must be your type.... which scares me enough to buy another gun

Peerie Maa
10-26-2014, 07:37 AM
well... I think self defence is a right I wouldn't want to be decided by somebody from Oz or the UK or anybody else, for that matter

OK, what sort of self defence? The right to kill someone for being there even befor you know whether they are a physical threat? How far do you want to be able to go?

Do you agree with the principal of reasonable force (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Reasonable+Force)?

McMike
10-26-2014, 07:45 AM
After all the fuss it turns out the 14 year old in question, together with whoever delivered the gun to him or permitted him to have it, was already in violation of state law: http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.040

So why is it we can't charge that person with involuntary manslaughter with a minimum sentence of ten years? I'll answer that for you; because the law is week and the NRA spends a lot of money keeping it that way.

John Smith
10-26-2014, 08:00 AM
The NRA clearly teaches and preaches the safe storage of firearms. This is one of many sites illustrating their position. This does not preclude opposition to specific proposed laws deemed unwise. http://eddieeagle.nra.org/information-for-parents.aspx

Fine. How do they insure the people they teach do what they were taught. My bottom line is too many people are killed by people with guns. I don't think we CAN change that.

John Smith
10-26-2014, 08:05 AM
"A common thread amongst the most horrific school shootings of the past 25 years is that the majority of the shooters were taking a psychiatric medication."

crickets, Mike... they're not interested in that information

the common thread is the ALL killed people, no? Not just the majority. The other common thread is they all used guns.

There was a post a little above yours that made a distinction between "approve" and "accept".

I have to say it seems some people do approve of these events. I accept them, but I don't approve. I also see no way of changing this.

John Smith
10-26-2014, 08:06 AM
There's fixing to be a lot fewer of them Democrats around to effectuate that eventuality, Jouster.:D

How many is " a lot?"

hanleyclifford
10-26-2014, 09:05 AM
So why is it we can't charge that person with involuntary manslaughter with a minimum sentence of ten years? I'll answer that for you; because the law is week and the NRA spends a lot of money keeping it that way. Not so. If it is determined that there was an enabler, that person should be held accountable on charges including negligence, possibly criminal culpabilty, and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. But the key is rational discovery of the facts, and vigorous prosecution under current law. The big problem as I see it is the emotional cry for more laws while failing to enforce current ones

hanleyclifford
10-26-2014, 09:07 AM
How many is " a lot?" Abracadabra and I present the answer (in just 9 more days)!:d

McMike
10-26-2014, 09:09 AM
Not so. If it is determined that there was an enabler, that person should be held accountable on charges including negligence, possibly criminal culpabilty, and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. But the key is rational discovery of the facts, and vigorous prosecution under current law. The big problem as I see it is the emotional cry for more laws while failing to enforce current ones

Without proper and consistent registration there is no way to legally hold anyone responsible. A national registration of every gun manufactured will allow for the proper owner of the gun to be held responsible for those that are killed with that gun.

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 09:13 AM
Not so. If it is determined that there was an enableran ounce of prevention. . .

hanleyclifford
10-26-2014, 09:14 AM
Without proper and consistent registration there is no way to legally hold anyone responsible. A national registration of every gun manufactured will allow for the proper owner of the gun to be held responsible for those that are killed with that gun. Read the link to the Washington state law and see that there already exists plenty of law to handle the case in question. Like so many liberals your focus is on the object, not the person.

hanleyclifford
10-26-2014, 09:21 AM
an ounce of prevention. . . ...best lies in the mind of the owner of the firearm which is why I favor focusing on people rather than objects. The owner of the gun used in this case should be investigated thoroughly.

McMike
10-26-2014, 09:27 AM
Read the link to the Washington state law and see that there already exists plenty of law to handle the case in question. Like so many liberals your focus is on the object, not the person.

I don't think you're stupid so stop making stupid statements. If you can go to Idaho and buy a gun without needing to register it, the Washington state law means nothing. You know it as well as I do.

Track every gun that comes off the assembly line, if the retailer looses track of the gun, they must be prosecuted, if the retailer is a habitual offender, the manufacturer must be prosecuted. If the chain of sale and resale is held responsible and then, the gun owner, I garentee we will see a drop in gun deaths.

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 09:28 AM
...best lies in the mind of the owner of the firearm which is why I favor focusing on people rather than objects.
The owner of the gun used in this case should be investigated thoroughly.Its ridiculous for you to advocate 'prevention' by investigating the gun owner after the fact.

May I remind you that two young teenagers are dead, and four others fighting for their lives in what could have been easily prevented.

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 09:30 AM
Read the link to the Washington state law and see that there already exists plenty of law to handle the case in question. Like so many liberals your focus is on the object, not the person.if there are 'plenty of law' why are there two dead 14 year olds and four other teenagers fighting for the lives?

hanleyclifford
10-26-2014, 09:33 AM
Its ridiculous for you to advocate 'prevention' by investigating the gun owner after the fact.

May I remind you that two young teenagers are dead, and four others fighting for their lives in what could have been easily prevented. That is speculation pending discovery of the facts surrounding how the teenager got the gun and from whom.

hanleyclifford
10-26-2014, 09:35 AM
if there are 'plenty of law' why are there two dead 14 year olds and four other teenagers fighting for the lives? The defect lies not in the law but in the one who failed his/her responsibilities under it.

George Jung
10-26-2014, 09:47 AM
I didn't read the last 4 pages.... sorry, don't have the heart for it. Very discouraging seeing so many people killed every day in this country, and not a bit of interest in an intelligent discussion, or in addressing the problem.

Got me wondering - HC, Phillip, 'the usual suspects' defending the status quo - what are you afraid of? I don't know the answer to that - but that's likely the starting point.

What is it you think you've 'lost' with a more effective/coherent gun policy?

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 09:48 AM
they're afraid someone is going to take away their precious

George Jung
10-26-2014, 09:50 AM
That's helpful, Paul....:P

hanleyclifford
10-26-2014, 09:52 AM
I didn't read the last 4 pages.... sorry, don't have the heart for it. Very discouraging seeing so many people killed every day in this country, and not a bit of interest in an intelligent discussion, or in addressing the problem.

Got me wondering - HC, Phillip, 'the usual suspects' defending the status quo - what are you afraid of? I don't know the answer to that - but that's likely the starting point.

What is it you think you've 'lost' with a more effective/coherent gun policy? Couple of errors in your post. If you are talking about the need for action to curtail gun violence I an definitely not favoring the "status quo". As to "afraid of"...have you stopped beating your wife?

Bubba L.
10-26-2014, 09:52 AM
I blame the shooter above all else.

I blame the gun owner above all else. The shooter was a troubled teen while the gun owner was unable to maintain control or possession of his gun.

Gene

George Jung
10-26-2014, 09:55 AM
As usual, HC's contribution is worthless.... who could have predicted that? AFA 'troubled teen/unable to control possession' - agreed. But it's a recurring theme, along the lines of a whirling dervish. This 'doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome'.... aren't we smarter than that? The evidence so far says 'no'.

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 09:57 AM
Very discouraging seeing so many people killed every day in this country, and not a bit of interest in an intelligent discussion, or in addressing the problem.

actually the NRA actively fights having an intelligent discussion. . .


At the behest of the NRA, Congressional Republicans successfully removed all federal funding to the Center for Disease Control that would have gone into researching the effect of guns and the root causes of gun violence.

what's really hypocritical is that gun rights advocates are always explaining gun violence away as being a drug problem or a race problem or whatever; yet here they are killing research into the problem. . .

hanleyclifford
10-26-2014, 10:05 AM
As usual, HC's contribution is worthless.... who could have predicted that? AFA 'troubled teen/unable to control possession' - agreed. But it's a recurring theme, along the lines of a whirling dervish. This 'doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome'.... aren't we smarter than that? The evidence so far says 'no'.As usual your questions are worthless and self serving.

George Jung
10-26-2014, 10:06 AM
Paul -That's an eye-opener; got a link to that? Curious where my congresscritter stands on this.

hanleyclifford
10-26-2014, 10:06 AM
I blame the gun owner above all else. The shooter was a troubled teen while the gun owner was unable to maintain control or possession of his gun.

Gene Subject to some further discovery of fact I believe I will agree with that.

Canoeyawl
10-26-2014, 10:10 AM
I blame the gun owner above all else. The shooter was a troubled teen while the gun owner was unable to maintain control or possession of his gun.

Gene

Unfortunately, that makes a good argument for not registering the guns. Which might be camels nose in the tent.

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 10:15 AM
Paul -That's an eye-opener; got a link to that? Curious where my congresscritter stands on this.its extremely well documented, just google 'NRA CDC'.

here's a New York Time's article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us/26guns.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

ironically enough, the best source with full on braggadocio is the NRA's own Institute for Legislative Action. Website of policy positions and press releases here: http://www.nraila.org/

Nicholas Scheuer
10-26-2014, 10:34 AM
One facet of this latest instance of gun craziness so for not discussesd is that in the realm of "troubles teens" this AHole resided right near a virtual "bed of roses". He really didn't have all that much to complain about. "Homecoming Prince"? Give me a GD break! What about all the guys who lost that contest, especially the far out nerds. What about the guys who WISH they could play football?

Durnik
10-26-2014, 10:46 AM
It would be interesting to know if the 14 year old in question or his parents were NRA members and if they had made any firearms training available to the child. If the parents were NRA members they could hardly have escaped the constant admonitions about gun storage and safety that pervade the literature of the NRA.

Ok.. NRA members have 'been admonished'. What about non NRA members?

Sorry Hanley, policy in the U.S. should not be "Special Interest Group Admonishes" - it needs to be law - & the NRA fights that law tooth & nail. This means they are either stupid.. not realizing that many won't see their 'admonishments of wisdom' - or - they know most Americans will not see (nor follow) their 'admonishments', making them evil. I'll go with evil, thank you very much.

enjoy
bobby

Peerie Maa
10-26-2014, 10:54 AM
One facet of this latest instance of gun craziness so for not discussesd is that in the realm of "troubles teens" this AHole resided right near a virtual "bed of roses". He really didn't have all that much to complain about. "Homecoming Prince"? Give me a GD break! What about all the guys who lost that contest, especially the far out nerds. What about the guys who WISH they could play football?

Disturbed kids do need to be on the agenda, but very few if any forumites have any qualification to discuss those issues.

What should not be forgotten is that if this disturbed 14 yo had not ready access to a gun, his best friend and their class mates would not have been shot. He might have managed to kill himself using other means, or he might have found even that too dificult without a contrivance specifiocally designed to kill.

ccmanuals
10-26-2014, 11:17 AM
There should be a background check before the NRA is allowed to buy a senator.

CWSmith
10-26-2014, 12:08 PM
There should be a background check before the NRA is allowed to buy a senator.

:) It should not stop with the NRA and there should be a "no returns" policy to prevent reselling or regifting.

Mike Erkkinen
10-26-2014, 12:09 PM
One of the factors driving my dislike of much of the firearms legislation instituted in reaction to recent mass shootings, is the effect it has on me personally. I live near the border of MA, NY, and CT, some of the most regulated states in the US in terms of firearm use and ownership. I have been competing for years in various forms of action rifle and pistol competition and believe it to be good clean fun that fosters respect, comraderie, mentoring, etc. Folks of all ages from about 14 to 90 are involved. In the time since Newtown, CT and NY have passed a bunch of new regulation and MA is on the cusp of passing more, even though they were already the strictest in the country. Most of this regulation involves magazine limits, aesthetics of rifles, and other factors that won't have any effect whatsoever on violent crime (IMO)- however makes much of the equipment that we already own illegal, and other equipment perhaps illegal, nobody really knows. Long story short - folks have given up on crossing state lines with their guns to go to a comp, and sometimes even leaving home with a gun - and now there are almost no comps happening on my previous circuit. If there are actually comps to go to, ammo has gotten so expensive due to all of the emotion around the issue that it's too expensive for many to shoot anyway. Upshot - due to the actions of a handful of deranged individuals and the public and political reactions to them - I have basically lost a sport that I got a lot of joy out of - and nobody is any safer.

Keith Wilson
10-26-2014, 12:44 PM
. . . ammo has gotten so expensive due to all of the emotion around the issue To be precise, ammo has gotten so expensive because people are buying it in large quantities and hoarding it? That's 'emotion', all right.

I do agree with you that some regulations have more to do with political posturing than actually making people safer.

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 01:13 PM
Upshot - due to the actions of a handful of deranged individuals and the public and political reactions to them - I have basically lost a sport that I got a lot of joy out of - and nobody is any safer.If the gun rights activists and the NRA, would allow a few common sense laws like requiring locked storage, a background check for all transfers of ownership, and yes perhaps even some form of firearms licensing; then its likely that in the long run you wouldn't see the more ridiculous and draconian restrictions on firearms that you speak of. . .

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 03:21 PM
:) It should not stop with the NRA and there should be a "no returns" policy to prevent reselling or regifting.

I find this particular dodge to be hair raising!

okay, okay... I juat went back and re read the quote... now I see the humor... sorry

CWSmith
10-26-2014, 03:22 PM
I find this particular dodge to be hair raising!

What dodge?

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 03:26 PM
One facet of this latest instance of gun craziness so for not discussesd is that in the realm of "troubles teens" this AHole resided right near a virtual "bed of roses". He really didn't have all that much to complain about. "Homecoming Prince"? Give me a GD break! What about all the guys who lost that contest, especially the far out nerds. What about the guys who WISH they could play football?

see my post about teens agonizing about minutia...

skuthorp
10-26-2014, 03:37 PM
So, now we wait for the next one to come along and recycle the same comments.
Just archive the present thread and change the names, dates and locations, it'll save a lot of time.

Mike Erkkinen
10-26-2014, 03:46 PM
If the gun rights activists and the NRA, would allow a few common sense laws like requiring locked storage, a background check for all transfers of ownership, and yes perhaps even some form of firearms licensing; then its likely that in the long run you wouldn't see the more ridiculous and draconian restrictions on firearms that you speak of. . .

If you use the 3 states I spoke of as an example, the truth is about 180 degrees from what you are suggesting. They all had those 3 laws aggressively in place, and yet still kept going with the repressive and ineffective updates. I assume that this is why the NRA and most similar groups have taken a fundamentalist "no new laws" stand, because they believe, and probably rightly so, that the anti-gun side won't really stop until we are similar to Oz or UK.

purri
10-26-2014, 03:48 PM
they're afraid someone is going to take away their precious bodily fluids..

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 03:49 PM
If you use the 3 states I spoke of as an example, the truth is about 180 degrees from what you are suggesting. They all had those 3 laws aggressively in place, and yet still kept going with the repressive and ineffective updates. I assume that this is why the NRA and most similar groups have taken a fundamentalist "no new laws" stand, because they believe, and probably rightly so, that the anti-gun side won't really stop until we are similar to Oz or UK.

yep

Peerie Maa
10-26-2014, 03:49 PM
If you use the 3 states I spoke of as an example, the truth is about 180 degrees from what you are suggesting. They all had those 3 laws aggressively in place, and yet still kept going with the repressive and ineffective updates. I assume that this is why the NRA and most similar groups have taken a fundamentalist "no new laws" stand, because they believe, and probably rightly so, that the anti-gun side won't really stop until we are similar to Oz or UK.

What is so wrong with that?

Mike Erkkinen
10-26-2014, 03:55 PM
What is so wrong with that?

Nothing "wrong" with it, unless the society at large desires a different model. Those places have much to recommend them, however not Meccas for firearms enthusiasts, and many of us believe that firearms are not the major cause of violence in the US, but in fact ancillary to it.

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 03:57 PM
BTW, how would firearms licensing and background checks have kept this kid from killing his classmates?Maybe they would have done nothing in this specific case. But its my belief that having a universal federal law requiring universal background checks, licensing (with proof of competency), and safe storage would cut down on gun violence over time. On a personal note, I can't see how the above would impact me as a firearms enthusiast and hunter in any way. How would they affect you negatively Brian?

skuthorp
10-26-2014, 03:58 PM
Nothing "wrong" with it, unless the society at large desires a different model. Those places have much to recommend them, however not Meccas for firearms enthusiasts, and many of us believe that firearms are not the major cause of violence in the US, but in fact ancillary to it.
Possibly so Mike, but violence being endemic in society guns just make such expression more likely to be fatal, and more 'effective' re numbers.

Peerie Maa
10-26-2014, 03:59 PM
Nothing "wrong" with it, unless the society at large desires a different model. Those places have much to recommend them, however not Meccas for firearms enthusiasts, and many of us believe that firearms are not the major cause of violence in the US, but in fact ancillary to it.

Firearms may be ancilliary to the violence, but their existance means that you kill as many with guns as you kill on the roads. We do not. You kill lots of chilkdren with guns annually, we do not.

We still shoot for sport, competing at international level as well as field sports.

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 04:02 PM
You kill lots of chilkdren with guns annually, we do not.and our children kill lots with guns - in 8% of all accidental shootings in the U.S. the gun was in the hands of a child under the age of six!

Durnik
10-26-2014, 04:05 PM
Yeah... right. ;)

BTW, how would firearms licensing and background checks have kept this kid from killing his classmates?

You left out locked arms - add that, and it's an 'over the course of time' thing. 20 years ago, not every state had mandatory seatbelt or insurance laws. As the years went by more states got on board enacting & then enforcing them. Now, with (to a large extent) a whole generation of drivers raised on belts & insurance - FOR THE MOST PART - people follow the rules - & the stats show it. The same is needed for firearms. Set up rational, workable, nation wide requirements - educate the people - & in a generation (16 years?) we will see a change - in two, it will be 'normal'. One problem we have now is the 'pill society' - too many want an immediate fix. When working with people, that ain't gonna happen. - JOHN SMITH - I'm talking to YOU! ;-) < smiley makes it all betterer..

as Paul said -


http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Paul Pless http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4336213#post4336213)
If the gun rights activists and the NRA, would allow a few common sense laws like requiring locked storage, a background check for all transfers of ownership, and yes perhaps even some form of firearms licensing; then its likely that in the long run you wouldn't see the more ridiculous and draconian restrictions on firearms that you speak of. . .

Legislation that most of us sane (? ;-)) gun control people don't like either. To my mind, fixes that don't (fix), have the tendency to create desire to fight new fixes - & that's what's happening (albeit with 'pot stirring' by the NRA &, strangely enough, southern ministers.

That said, there is no way the NRA is going to support workable legislation. They obviously want the chaos & carnage. Either that, or they are the most ignorant & inept people around - anybody really buy that? Southern ministers, OTOH, are both inept & want the carnage - looking for 'fulfillment of gawd's prophecies', they are..

enjoy
bobby

eta: & I see Paul said this all while I was typing.. Damn, I'm gonna have to learn to type faster.. ;-)

skuthorp
10-26-2014, 04:14 PM
"That said, there is no way the NRA is going to support workable legislation. They obviously want the chaos & carnage. Either that, or they are the most ignorant & inept people around - anybody really buy that? Southern ministers, OTOH, are both inept & want the carnage - looking for 'fulfillment of gawd's prophecies', they are.."

See? acceptable collateral damage from an influential sector of the population and their prime lobbying organisation. Acceptable collateral damage. But it's cultural, right?

Mike Erkkinen
10-26-2014, 04:15 PM
and our children kill lots with guns - in 8% of all accidental shootings in the U.S. the gun was in the hands of a child under the age of six!

This is a horrible fact, and I am personally happy to comply with the 3 laws you suggested become universal - and have since they've been the norm in my state and surrounding states since 1989. However, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an end to violence due to that legislation - in the most peaceful states in New England - Vt and Nh - any adult can carry a firearm almost anywhere - and they are both states with dense illegal drug traffic. My concern is that pursuing "feel good" legislation involving guns distracts us from looking at deeper issues- economic instability, having an extremely violent government as a role model, lack of positive cultural icons, etc.

Peerie Maa
10-26-2014, 04:17 PM
"That said, there is no way the NRA is going to support workable legislation. They obviously want the chaos & carnage. Either that, or they are the most ignorant & inept people around - anybody really buy that? Southern ministers, OTOH, are both inept & want the carnage - looking for 'fulfillment of gawd's prophecies', they are.."

See? acceptable collateral damage from an influential sector of the population and their prime lobbying organisation. Acceptable collateral damage. But it's cultural, right?
Sounds like Christianity at the time of the inquisition. Life was brutal and short, so a demonstration of true love was to ensure that the soul was pure and hurry you off to Heaven as soon as possible.

Old Dryfoot
10-26-2014, 04:25 PM
Every gun in the hands of a child must first pass through the hands of an adult!

Jamara Stevens, 11, was killed when she and her three siblings, a 14-year-old boy, 7-year-old girl and 2-year-old boy, were playing with a .357 caliber handgun with an 8-inch barrel in their Mantuna home on Saturday.

Police say a 2-year-old Utah boy passed away Friday after his 3-year-old sister accidentally shot him in the stomach with a rifle.

A five-year-old boy who shot dead his two-year-old sister in the US state of Kentucky used a gun marketed for children, authorities have said.

In yet another gun tragedy involving young children, a 4-year-old boy has shot and killed his 6-year-old sister in Kentucky.

On Sunday morning, a five-year-old girl in New Orleans shot herself and died

A teenager accidentally shot and killed her brother Friday night in northeast Houston.

WAYCROSS, Ga. -- A 10-year-old Waycross girl was shot and killed by her brother Friday afternoon.

ST. LOUIS (KTVI) – A 15-year-old girl was shot in the head around 1:20 Thursday afternoon and killed by her older brother who was playing with a shotgun

KANSAS CITY, MO (KCTV) - A gun left out in a Kansas City home led to the accidental shooting of a 4-year-old girl.

A man is dead after his 6-year-old grandson accidentally pulled the trigger of his uncle’s unattended rifle during a barbecue at the family’s home.

A 5-year-old son of a deputy in North Carolina is recovering after he shot himself with his father’s service weapon over the weekend.

In yet another "accidental" shooting by a toddler, this 4 year old Indiana boy managed to find a gun in his parents' bedroom and shot and killed himself with it.

Detectives found 20 unsecured guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition throughout the home of the family of a 3-year-old boy who accidentally shot himself in the abdomen March 3, according to reports released last week


=================================

I like guns, I like shooting, I no longer hunt but I support those that do.

I could never live with myself if I knew that my negligence had lead to the death of a child. I would gladly live with whatever conditions were needed to keep them safe.

Mike Erkkinen
10-26-2014, 04:27 PM
Possibly so Mike, but violence being endemic in society guns just make such expression more likely to be fatal, and more 'effective' re numbers.

Perhaps this is a basic disagreement in strategy. I imagine "defanging" people will limit their ability to hurt each other. I don't want to live in a world where the only thing keeping people from killing or maiming me is their lack of access to the means. Since you're suggesting that government lead the initiative by taking the violent means from citizens, by force if need be, I'm suggesting a different strategy for government to adopt: "Stop your "legal" killing and maiming and solve your problems the way you'd suggest private citizens solve theirs!"

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 04:34 PM
Perhaps this is a basic disagreement in strategy. I imagine "defanging" people will limit their ability to hurt each other. I don't want to live in a world where the only thing keeping people from killing or maiming me is their lack of access to the means. Since you're suggesting that government lead the initiative by taking the violent means from citizens, by force if need be, I'm suggesting a different strategy for government to adopt: "Stop your "legal" killing and maiming and solve your problems the way you'd suggest private citizens solve theirs!"

we still have the same government, just in case some think we don't

http://wafflesatnoon.com/1890-school-shooting-worse-than-sandy-hook/

hanleyclifford
10-26-2014, 04:38 PM
You guys are real strong reciting the negligence. How about some stats on prosecution and punishment of the perps?

Peerie Maa
10-26-2014, 04:41 PM
You guys are real strong reciting the negligence. How about some stats on prosecution and punishment of the perps?

Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted? Yes?

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 04:44 PM
Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted? Yes?

so you aren't interested in prosecution of criminals? You need to be clear here

Memphis Mike
10-26-2014, 04:45 PM
So nobody really wants to take a look at or discuss this aspect of the problem. My guess is because at least 80 per cent of you are on some form of anti depressant and a lot of your children are too. Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.
Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.
Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.
Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.
Mathew Miller, age 13, hanged himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.
Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.
Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.
A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.
Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..
A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.
Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.
TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.
Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.
James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.
Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania
Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California
Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.
Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.
Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.
Alex Kim, age 13, hanged himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.
Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.
Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family’s Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.
Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hanged herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)
Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002. (Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)
Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hanged herself in her family’s detached garage.
Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.
Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.
Woody ____, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.
A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.
Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”
Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.
Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.
Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.
Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.
Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

Peerie Maa
10-26-2014, 04:46 PM
so you aren't interested in prosecution of criminals? You need to be clear here

You still coming out with dumb comments then?

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 04:46 PM
You still coming out with dumb comments then?

I'm more interested in your comment

Peerie Maa
10-26-2014, 04:51 PM
I'm more interested in your comment

I'll not pander to your stupidity.

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 04:58 PM
well, duh!

Lew Barrett
10-26-2014, 05:06 PM
Phillip, don't think my failure to respond in respect to 'non sequitur' commentary means your comments equating motorcycle licensing to gun licensing
were remotely connected to the discussion at hand.

I've been busy with other things. I'm happy to now rejoin the chorus of hoots, catcalls and general derision in respect to a good deal of your 'contributions' here. They are, as usual, hard line, frequently difficult to follow, dismissive of your protagonists' sensibilities and reflective of a person with too much internet time on his hands.

As you were! :)

Mike Erkkinen
10-26-2014, 06:24 PM
It's a valid point Mike. Worth discussing.

Have you looked into when these drugs started being prescribed to children, in relation to the apparent increase in school shootings?

+ one

skuthorp
10-26-2014, 06:26 PM
It's a valid point Mike. Worth discussing.

Have you looked into when these drugs started being prescribed to children, in relation to the apparent increase in school shootings?
It was when the natural variation of the behaviour of children due often to dietary, domestic, inherited problems such as foetal alcohol syndrome and differing maturity rates was converted by smart marketing to a medical problem rather than a social one. Big Pharma. has done very well out of that.

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 06:28 PM
There's no way I want my 'right' to own a firearm based on a federal government 'competency' test. Those would certainly get more complicated, and more expensive, in the future. Government never gets smaller or simpler. By extension, would you then like to see questions 11a through 11l stricken from form 4473? Your fine with drug addicts and felons purchasing firearms over the counter from FFL dealers?

http://www.ocshooters.com/Gen/Form-4473/ATF-FORM-4473-pg1.gif

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 06:32 PM
By extension, would you then like to see questions 11a through 11l stricken from form 4473? Your fine with drug addicts and felons purchasing firearms over the counter from FFL dealers?

http://www.ocshooters.com/Gen/Form-4473/ATF-FORM-4473-pg1.gif

dishonest, Paul... no doubt you are having fun

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 06:33 PM
So by 'competency' you mean background check?

Most people use the term 'background check' when referring to a background check.

he's channeling lj :) (I think I can hear him giggling from here!)

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 06:34 PM
So by 'competency' you mean background check?

Most people use the term 'background check' when referring to a background check.that would cover the mental competency part. . .

Peerie Maa
10-26-2014, 06:35 PM
Speaking of safe storage laws, in Britain they just changed the rules that the police can conduct unannounced home inspections of registered gun owners to check on their firearm storage. There's no way I want our cops having permission to enter my house unannounced. When I saw that news bit, I knew it would not be a good thing for proponents of safe gun storage laws in the USA.

I honestly believe that there can't be proactive enforcement of such laws. It's going to be one of those things they check after a crime, and charge the irresponsible party afterwards.

These are the actual provisions:
Unannounced Home Visits
19.11. Where it is judged necessary, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or
risk of harm, the police may undertake an unannounced home visit to check the security of
a certificate holder’s firearms and shotguns. It is not expected that the police will undertake
an unannounced home visit at an unsocial hour unless there is a justified and specific
requirement to do so on the grounds of crime prevention or public safety concerns and the
police judge that this action is both justified and proportionate.
19.12
It is recognised that there are no new powers of entry for police or police staff when
conducting home visits. To mitigate any misunderstanding on the part of the certificate
holder the police must provide a clear and reasoned explanation to the certificate holder at
the time of the visit.

Which indicates that it is not just on some coppers whim, but with just cause. Furthermore, they are expected to ring the door bell before kicking it in.

Paul Pless
10-26-2014, 06:37 PM
These are the actual provisions:

Which indicates that it is not just on some coppers whim, but with just cause. Furthermore, they are expected to ring the door bell before kicking it in.
amazing how disingenuous, how often factually wrong, and how reliant on spin the NRA side of the debate becomes. . .

Phillip Allen
10-26-2014, 06:53 PM
These are the actual provisions:

Which indicates that it is not just on some coppers whim, but with just cause. Furthermore, they are expected to ring the door bell before kicking it in.


around here, cops use 'with cause' for killing people... "I FEARED FOR MY LIFE!"

Canoeyawl
10-26-2014, 06:59 PM
Speaking of safe storage laws, in Britain they just changed the rules that the police can conduct unannounced home inspections of registered gun owners to check on their firearm storage. There's no way I want our cops having permission to enter my house unannounced.

You won't have to worry about permission, that novelty went away long ago. Here in the USA the police assume everyone is armed and dangerous and proceed accordingly.
There are many legal exemptions to the search and seizure laws here. It's an easy work around in these days of Homeland Security.

Military style surprise visits at your home, kicking in the door with flash-bang grenades and automatic weapons at the ready are the norm.

That is the direct result of the second amendment's current interpretation.

Mike Erkkinen
10-26-2014, 07:06 PM
What?

The 2nd Amendment doesn't address no knock warrants.

i'm guessing he's attributing police brutality to the second amendment - ie: " they might have been armed so we had to go in shooting" ?? Scary if that's accurate!

John Smith
10-26-2014, 07:14 PM
Without proper and consistent registration there is no way to legally hold anyone responsible. A national registration of every gun manufactured will allow for the proper owner of the gun to be held responsible for those that are killed with that gun.

And you do this how? You MIGHT do it for new purchases, but what all the guns purchased before your law?

John Smith
10-26-2014, 07:16 PM
I'm still waiting for some to suggest something that actually has a chance of changing things. Legislation that cannot be enforced is kind of pointless, no?