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S.V. Airlie
09-14-2014, 11:07 AM
Another beheading. The killer had an English accent. Probably the same one!

slug
09-14-2014, 11:13 AM
Isis is attempting to provoke a response and create a Christian muslim war....dont fall for their tactics.

use law enforcement techniques to catch the head choppers.

CWSmith
09-14-2014, 11:14 AM
The beheadings don't seem to have the response that ISIS wants. The UK got mad. Good.

CWSmith
09-14-2014, 11:15 AM
Isis is attempting to provoke a response and create a Christian muslim war....dont fall for their tactics.

use law enforcement techniques to catch the head choppers.

Since they are killing half the Muslims, the odds should be good.

mikefrommontana
09-14-2014, 11:17 AM
But the important part is that the UK is not sending troops--thus denying ISIS the devil they need (to make themselves relevant).

Not sure what the 600 Australians are going to be doing up there though.

CWSmith
09-14-2014, 11:20 AM
There was talk this AM on the news shows about neighboring Arab states joining in the fight against ISIS. Clearly, they see the risk. If we can help without becoming the central force, that will help.

Bubba L.
09-14-2014, 11:59 AM
Isis is attempting to provoke a response and create a Christian muslim war....dont fall for their tactics.

use law enforcement techniques to catch the head choppers.

Y>


There was talk this AM on the news shows about neighboring Arab states joining in the fight against ISIS. Clearly, they see the risk. If we can help without becoming the central force, that will help.

We have a better chance of this with President Obama than we did with Dubya. We really need to figure out how to get along with and understand more ME cultures and nations.

Gene

Paul Girouard
09-14-2014, 12:07 PM
Y>



We have a better chance of this with President Obama than we did with Dubya. We really need to figure out how to get along with and understand more ME cultures and nations.

Gene


Good luck with that Gene. Don't go lose your head over "trying to understand" some one who wants to cut your head off with a 8" knife.

I'd like to go on a small rant about how stup................. that sounds , but I'd like to not get banned so I'll forgo that attempt/ line of ranting. LOL Have a great day , why not get a airline ticket and fly over to Iraq to figure it out?

bahma
09-14-2014, 12:23 PM
I believe, both the US and the UK special service units are hot on these evil doers tails......, whether they find themselves looking at the pointy end of a missle or sitting manacled In the back of a chopper.......it won't be too long.
Justice will prevail.

slug
09-14-2014, 12:34 PM
The head choppers cant hide...they will go down. Western intelligence, western will and western power is to great.

they will come to grief.

its important that the west...in particular the US...doesnt start waving flags and march off to solve the problem.

dont do it. Keep your wits, dont fall into the trap.

Bubba L.
09-14-2014, 01:08 PM
Good luck with that Gene. Don't go lose your head over "trying to understand" some one who wants to cut your head off with a 8" knife.

I'd like to go on a small rant about how stup................. that sounds , but I'd like to not get banned so I'll forgo that attempt/ line of ranting. LOL Have a great day , why not get a airline ticket and fly over to Iraq to figure it out?

Not all Muslims are trying to cut off heads. In fact, It's a decided minority. It's the majority that we need to understand better.

Gene

seanz
09-14-2014, 01:30 PM
so long as you can find one Muslim not cutting off heads, you will be right

Hopefully that will always be an easy task.........


I expect you might give the Muslims the same treatment the Republican haters give the Christian Right... how's that sound?

It sounds weird and confused. I'm uncertain if you are referring to people that hate Republicans or Republicans that hate. I think the latter group did have a big influence on the Christian Right.
Phillip?

CWSmith
09-14-2014, 01:52 PM
So, Gene, I think that now we see the other half of the problem lies with those who fear everyone.

Bubba L.
09-14-2014, 02:44 PM
so long as you can find one Muslim not cutting off heads, you will be right

I expect you might give the Muslims the same treatment the Republican haters give the Christian Right... how's that sound?

I know quite a few Muslims and none of them condone, or, cut off heads.
Are we separating the right wing christian nut cases (christian right) from the main stream moderate Christians who don't agree with them? If so then I can do that, in fact I do that. I don't recognize any significant difference between any religions. It's the individual members and sometimes small groups that I focus on.


So, Gene, I think that now we see the other half of the problem lies with those who fear everyone.

Yep.
Edit: in the west and the mid east.

Gene

Capt Zatarra
09-14-2014, 03:14 PM
Y>



We have a better chance of this with President Obama than we did with Dubya. We really need to figure out how to get along with and understand more ME cultures and nations.

Gene

Gene

Is the "We" you are talking about the politicians, or the foreign service that advices them? The foreign service is staffed with people with masters degrees and doctorates in ME studies. As well as anthropoligist, sociaciologist, and a meriad of other associated disciplines. These are people who have spent their entire lives studying and living in the ME. If that is who your talking about what is it you think they do not know?

Or is the "We" you are referring to the average man on the street, in the western world? If that is your contention, why do you feel that the onus of understanding and getting along rest with those who live in the west? Why are you not saying that the people of the middle east need to figure out how to get along with and understand more western cultures and nations?

I am NOT asking this of you as a form of retoric debate. I really want to understand your reasoning. I have spent some time studying the ME culture, and religions, no where near enough for a degree, I'll grant you. And I have lived and worked in the ME, courtesy of the US government. It is my own personal opinion that the people in charge in the western world already know what it would take to get along with the people in the ME and it is unacceptable. But that is just my opinion. What I really want to understand is what you think the ME has to offer the western world, since historically speaking when someone calls for understanding and getting along, it is to reap some reward?

Capt. Zatarra

CWSmith
09-14-2014, 03:17 PM
I have defended Islam on other threads and I do believe that a small number of political fanatics are harming an entire religion.

That said, and I know what some of you think of Christianity, can you imagine a world where every priest or minister had the authority to declare a holy war? My understanding is that is the situation with Islam and the root of many problems. Ask Rushdie.

Tom Montgomery
09-14-2014, 04:33 PM
I suspect ISIL has bitten off more than it can chew.

Airstrikes, drone strikes, and refurbished Iraqi and Kurdish forces on the ground will likely cut off the snakes's head.

Bubba L.
09-14-2014, 05:55 PM
Gene

Is the "We" you are talking about the politicians, or the foreign service that advices them? The foreign service is staffed with people with masters degrees and doctorates in ME studies. As well as anthropoligist, sociaciologist, and a meriad of other associated disciplines. These are people who have spent their entire lives studying and living in the ME. If that is who your talking about what is it you think they do not know?

Or is the "We" you are referring to the average man on the street, in the western world? If that is your contention, why do you feel that the onus of understanding and getting along rest with those who live in the west? Why are you not saying that the people of the middle east need to figure out how to get along with and understand more western cultures and nations?

I am NOT asking this of you as a form of retoric debate. I really want to understand your reasoning. I have spent some time studying the ME culture, and religions, no where near enough for a degree, I'll grant you. And I have lived and worked in the ME, courtesy of the US government. It is my own personal opinion that the people in charge in the western world already know what it would take to get along with the people in the ME and it is unacceptable. But that is just my opinion. What I really want to understand is what you think the ME has to offer the western world, since historically speaking when someone calls for understanding and getting along, it is to reap some reward?

Capt. Zatarra

I was referring to the western world in general. Regarding the U.S. in particular, it seems clear that our policies during the Dubya administration were set by a few people who didn't care about what any experts cared to say. President Obama seems to want to listen to experts and formulate a rational response. As far as why we should be the ones to reach out and make an effort to understand our fellow travelers on space ship earth? My only answer is that we're all in this together and it's a damn small ship. Some one has to make the first attempt, why not us? What is in it for us you ask? Less war and strife? I've studied a fair bit of history although as you say, not enough for a degree and it seems that even though Muslims aka the Ottoman Empire was expansionist and imperialist it wasn't an extremist Muslim empire as we know them today. Their official outlook on other religions was to tolerate them but remain aloof and apart from them. To do business with them but not become friends with them. History strongly suggests that the expansionist Christian response of killing all Muslims and abusing them has led to our current extremist attitudes. I don't want you to think that I'm using this to excuse the actions of extremist Muslims because I'm not. I think they are wrong and very bad for our little spaceship earth. I just think we need honesty to understand where we are and how we got here. I challenge anyone to offer proof that the three Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) are not the three most violent religions to ever appear on earth. Not necessarily violent in their majority but definitely with their vocal and controlling (at times) minority.
Given the history of the ME they are likely to need a heavy hand ruling them for some time to come. Sadly, that's just the nature of the beast. It just doesn't follow that it has to be an abusive ruler such as the ones that we've supported over the years. Understanding this about the nature of the region doesn't mean that we should write them off and treat them in any way that we wish in order to get our way as we've done for generations, all in the name of the all mighty dollar.
We are only about 5% of the world population. If we keep treating the other 95% as our inferior servants and crushing them they will some day realize that they can erase us from the earth and absorb the losses in war easily. Is that a good enough reason to try to understand those who are different from us?

Gene

slug
09-15-2014, 03:17 AM
I have defended Islam on other threads and I do believe that a small number of political fanatics are harming an entire religion.

That said, and I know what some of you think of Christianity, can you imagine a world where every priest or minister had the authority to declare a holy war? My understanding is that is the situation with Islam and the root of many problems. Ask Rushdie.

ISIS is a muslim problem yet no muslim countries have stepped up to organize a coalition to deal with this issue.

25 percent of the world is muslim. 2 billion.


This is the problem

PeterSibley
09-15-2014, 04:31 AM
WASHINGTON — US officials have shored up support from more than a dozen countries to confront Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria. But despite a top-level diplomatic push, Turkey is less likely to play an active role.
Turkey, which borders Iraq and Syria, said late last week that it would not support strikes against Islamic State militants and it would not allow a US-led coalition to launch strikes from its bases, a government official told Agence France-Presse.

The Pentagon is looking for coalition members to conduct intelligence, aerial refueling, airlift and training, a senior US defense official said last week. The US has been conducting airstrikes in Iraq since August and is preparing to expand those strikes to Syria.

“By geography, Turkey is going to be absolutely indispensable to the ongoing fight against [Islamic State],” the senior US official said on Sept. 8, shortly before US Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel landed in Ankara for meetings with top government officials including President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, Defense Minister Ismet Yilmaz and Gen. Necdet Özel, chief of defense.

The US military has facilities at Incirlik Air Base. Incirlik could be used for logistical and humanitarian operations, the Turkish government official told AFP.

Turkey is in an arduous position since Islamic State militants overthrew its consulate in Iraq and still holds 49 citizens hostage. The country also has an estimated 800,000 Syrian refugees within its porous borders.
In addition to Turkey, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said on Sept. 11 that Germany would not conduct airstrikes; UK participation also was unclear.

At the NATO summit in Newport, Wales, on Sept. 5, Hagel and US Secretary of State John Kerry hosted nine countries — France, Germany, Canada, Australia, Turkey, Italy, Poland, Denmark and the UK — described as the core coalition that will confront Islamic State militants.

Nearly a week later on Sept. 11 in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf Cooperation Council members — Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates — along with Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon, “agreed to do their share in the comprehensive fight against [the Islamic State],” according to a joint communiqué issued after the meeting with Kerry.

US officials played down the significance of Hagel’s visit to Turkey, saying it was a “continuation of the discussion” that US President Barack Obama had with Erdogan the prior week at the NATO summit.

more at .http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140913/DEFREG01/309130025/Anti-Coalition-Grows-Turkey-Takes-Back-Seat

Bubba L.
09-15-2014, 10:55 AM
ISIS is a muslim problem yet no muslim countries have stepped up to organize a coalition to deal with this issue.

25 percent of the world is muslim. 2 billion.


This is the problem

ISIS is a world problem.

Gene

John of Phoenix
09-15-2014, 11:17 AM
From Peter's post:
But despite a top-level diplomatic push, Turkey is less likely to play an active role.IS is holding a number of Turk's hostage who range from high ranking diplomats to infants. When they are released (or if harmed) the Turks will be in there with a vengeance. They have a well earned, ruthless reputation in war.

Capt Zatarra
09-15-2014, 02:00 PM
I thank I understand your position. It is an admirable position to want everyone to get along and respect each other. But I am reminded of the marriage counseller who said that when one member of a married couple decides to that they no longer want to be in the relationship that person hold all the cards (read power). They can make all maner of demands and conditions, knowing that the person who wants the marriage to survive has no leverage in the relationship, and must there fore comply to all demand in order for the relationship to survive.

My experience in the ME is that we in the west want to have a productive, co-beneficial relationship, conversely the Muslims do not want to get along. They want the western world to wipe out their enamies, be they Christian, Druze, Janism, Sikh, Bahai, Yazidi, Mandean, etc. ect. and then remove our self from the picture. As one of the Kuwait soilders I was training told me, 'My friend you must understand that right now we need you because our enemies are many and very strong, but when they are gone you will become the enemy, because you are Christians and we are Muslim, and the world must be only muslim! At a state dinner shortly before the invassion of Iraq I was placed at a table so that I was sitting next to the Palastinian Ambassador to the United Nation, a very articulate and eloquent gentleman. He spent quite a bit of time explaining why the arabic world needed the west to remove all the despots like S. Hussain, and others like him because they stood in the way of a ME ruled by Allah.

Another thought I would like to submit is that well meaning politicians have been trying to help the ME since WWI. But greed and power, like every where in the world, are the real motivation behind the men who use religion and hatred to motivate their followers to fight and spread fear in a region that is a hot bed of racism and bigotry. My feeling is that most people from the west cannot conceive of how ingrained and strong racism, sexism, and bigotry, are so much a part of every day life in the ME.

So as much as I wish that as you were right and we could all get along, I am convinced that unfortunately there is a large majority of Islam, and those in charge, who have no inclination to live and let live.

I would also like to put forth the religion of the Aztec as the most horrible and evil you can imagine, human sacrifice, cannibalism, self immolation, they make the big 3 look like Childs play.

Capt. Zatarra

George Jung
09-15-2014, 02:28 PM
emulation? Or immolation?

If given a choice, I'll choose the first!

Capt Zatarra
09-15-2014, 02:41 PM
emulation? Or immolation?

If given a choice, I'll choose the first!

ME TOO!!! Nice catch George
Z.

John of Phoenix
09-15-2014, 02:50 PM
Capt Zatara, your experience is entirely in line with mine.

When I was in Iran, shortly before the revolution, my job was to train Iranian Cobra pilots to kill Iraqi tanks which struck me as pretty bizarre - Muslim on Muslim. I commented on this to one of the commanders. "Mr John, in my country we have a saying, 'Me against my brothers. My brothers and I against our cousins. My cousins and I against our neighbors. My neighbors and I against the infidels.' " It took some years for that to sink in.

Bubba L.
09-15-2014, 04:20 PM
I thank I understand your position. It is an admirable position to want everyone to get along and respect each other. But I am reminded of the marriage counseller who said that when one member of a married couple decides to that they no longer want to be in the relationship that person hold all the cards (read power). They can make all maner of demands and conditions, knowing that the person who wants the marriage to survive has no leverage in the relationship, and must there fore comply to all demand in order for the relationship to survive.

My experience in the ME is that we in the west want to have a productive, co-beneficial relationship, conversely the Muslims do not want to get along. They want the western world to wipe out their enamies, be they Christian, Druze, Janism, Sikh, Bahai, Yazidi, Mandean, etc. ect. and then remove our self from the picture. As one of the Kuwait soilders I was training told me, 'My friend you must understand that right now we need you because our enemies are many and very strong, but when they are gone you will become the enemy, because you are Christians and we are Muslim, and the world must be only muslim! At a state dinner shortly before the invassion of Iraq I was placed at a table so that I was sitting next to the Palastinian Ambassador to the United Nation, a very articulate and eloquent gentleman. He spent quite a bit of time explaining why the arabic world needed the west to remove all the despots like S. Hussain, and others like him because they stood in the way of a ME ruled by Allah.

Another thought I would like to submit is that well meaning politicians have been trying to help the ME since WWI. But greed and power, like every where in the world, are the real motivation behind the men who use religion and hatred to motivate their followers to fight and spread fear in a region that is a hot bed of racism and bigotry. My feeling is that most people from the west cannot conceive of how ingrained and strong racism, sexism, and bigotry, are so much a part of every day life in the ME.

So as much as I wish that as you were right and we could all get along, I am convinced that unfortunately there is a large majority of Islam, and those in charge, who have no inclination to live and let live.

I would also like to put forth the religion of the Aztec as the most horrible and evil you can imagine, human sacrifice, cannibalism, self immolation, they make the big 3 look like Childs play.

Capt. Zatarra

For the two in red they are just fantasy. The west has been screwing and exploiting the ME since WWI.

Ah, I know someone would bring up the Aztec's. The numbers they killed pale in comparison to those killed by the Jews, Muslims and Christians for their god. They were child's play.


Capt Zatara, your experience is entirely in line with mine.

When I was in Iran, shortly before the revolution, my job was to train Iranian Cobra pilots to kill Iraqi tanks which struck me as pretty bizarre - Muslim on Muslim. I commented on this to one of the commanders. "Mr John, in my country we have a saying, 'Me against my brothers. My brothers and I against our cousins. My cousins and I against our neighbors. My neighbors and I against the infidels.' " It took some years for that to sink in.

Why are you surprised that Muslims would kill other Muslims? Jews kill other Jews, Christians kill other Christians, Hindi, kill other Hindi... In our Revolutionary and Civil wars we killed almost exclusively Christians. In the latter we were killing our fellow country men over the right to own other people, who were... any guesses? yep, the slaves were mostly Christian.

We have humans have a number of categories; first is "us", next comes the many, many varieties of "them". Each level of "them" is one more remove from "us" and therefore easier to kill, rob, abuse...

Gene

Keith Wilson
09-15-2014, 04:31 PM
The numbers they (the Aztecs) killed pale in comparison to those killed by the Jews, Muslims and Christians for their god. They didn't have much of a chance; the empire lasted less than 100 years and wasn't very big. Captain Zatarra's right; the Aztec religion was particularly dreadful.

Capt Zatarra
09-15-2014, 06:44 PM
For the two in red they are just fantasy. The west has been screwing and exploiting the ME since WWI.

Ah, I know someone would bring up the Aztec's. The numbers they killed pale in comparison to those killed by the Jews, Muslims and Christians for their god.

Gene

Gene

Is it fantasy? Your throwing a pretty big loop there, which in this case includes me. I started that first sentence with "In my experience in the ME", are you saying that I fantasizes being in the ME? Or are you implying that the work that my team did to help organize the first elections in Baghdad was a fantasy? That the schools and health clinics that we opened that had women teachers and women doctors was a fantasy. I met a lot of westerners over there working their butts off to make the world a better place. Some were there on their own, most were like me, they were sent, I did not screw or exploit anyone, I never saw any such behavior on the part of any westerner I was around. I am not saying it didn't happen but it was rare if it did. I would like to put forth that the group that is being screwed and exploited is the military personal that are being sent over there. They put their heart, soul, and body into their work, and when like me, they are injured they are tossed aside like garbage. The U.S. has poured $$$$$$ by the truck load into roads, power plants, water lines, schools and hospitals and every other conceivable project over there, the locals get it all for free the contractors like B&R make tons of $$$$$$ while the vets coming back get squat for care and are accused of being sadistic bastards. Now look what you have done! You got me all riled up and on my soap box. I did not imply that their was not been screwing and exploiting on the part of the west, there certainly has been plenty of that, but what I was trying to point out is that since the time of T. E. Lawrence there have been many who like T.E. have tried to help the people of the middle east. Let me put it this way . . . Gene, not everyone from the west that has been involved in the ME is a bastard!

As to the Aztec thing, (on this subject I do have enough hours to have a degree, as useless as they have been until now)you ask what religion was more violent, not who had killed more people. We have no way of counting how many the Aztec murdered, but A religion that kills humans by the hundreds and some times thousands a day, day in and day out, as a food supply for it's people. Add to that things like the jaguar cult a militant sect of the religion that practiced skinning alive it's victims and wearing the bloody skins while eating the victim is really really really violent. The crusades cannot hold a candle to the wars and violence these guys perpetrated.

Z.

zertgold
09-16-2014, 12:08 AM
College Students Sign Petition to Support ISIS, Yikes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2GSHG7IO-8

S.V. Airlie
09-16-2014, 07:15 AM
Zertgold! And their parents pay a hefty sum for their education! And some here are our future leaders!

Rum_Pirate
09-16-2014, 09:02 AM
I suspect ISIL has bitten off more than it can chew.

Airstrikes, drone strikes, and refurbished Iraqi and Kurdish forces on the ground will likely cut off the snakes's head.

They could start with these:


http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2014/02/13/Exclusive-Top-ISIS-leaders-revealed.html

Staff Writer, Al Arabiya NewsThursday, 13 February 2014
Exclusive information obtained by Al Arabiya News Channel has revealed the identities of the top field commanders running the Islamist militant group known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS).
The six individuals who have been at the helm of the terror group are from Iraq, Deputy Minister of Iraq's Interior Ministry Adnan al-Asadi told Al Arabiya in an exclusive interview to be aired on Friday.

At least three of them served in Saddam Hussein’s army while others were previously detained in Iraq and upon their release they joined the war in Syria.


1- Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi
His real name is Ibrahim al-Badri, also formerly known as Abu Douaa, was a lecturer of Islamic studies and an Imam at mosques in Bagdad and Falluja before he was detained by American forces on June 4, 2004. After his release three years later, he established the “Sunni Army” militia and joined al-Qaeda. He became the group’s third in command following the death of Abu Omar al-Baghdadi.
2- Abu Ayman al-Iraqi
Al-Iraqi is one of the main leaders of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and a member of the organization’s military council. He previously worked as a colonel in Iraq’s air defense intelligence under Saddam Hussein, during which time he was nicknamed Abu Muhannad al-Suweidawi. He was detained for three years in 2007. Following his release, he moved to Syria and is currently commanding ISIS fighters in the cities of Edlib, Aleppo and the mountains of Lattakia.
3- Abu Ahmad al-Alwani
A former member of Saddam’s army, al-Alwani is currently a member of the ISIS military council. His real name is Waleed Jassem al-Alwani.
4- Abu Abdulrahman al-Bilawi
Al-Bilawi was one of the four members of the ISIS military council and former head of the group’s Shura council. Hailing from al-Khalidiya in Iraq’s Anbar province, he was detained on Jan. 27, 2005 in the American military detention center, Camp Bucca. He was later killed in al-Khalidiya, Anbar. His real name was Adnan Ismael Najm.

5- Haji Bakr
Bakr was a former officer in Saddam’s army, charged with handling the development of weapons. He was later imprisoned at Camp Bucca and joined al-Qaeda after his release. Bakr was reportedly the strongest ISIS commander in Syria up until his recent death. His real name was Samir Abd Mouhammad al-Khleifawi.
6- Abu Fatima al-Jaheishi
Al-Jaheishi was initially in charge of the ISIS operations in southern Iraq before he moved to the northern city of Kirkuk. His real name is Ni'ma Abd Nayef al-Jabouri.


http://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2014/02/13/be306afe-4f8d-40ff-a7bd-6cb1d3160aaa/be306afe-4f8d-40ff-a7bd-6cb1d3160aaa_16x9_600x338.jpg

I suspect that various intelligence sources know who the current ones are but do not wish to let the scum know that they know.