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changeng
09-07-2014, 04:39 AM
Lucifer, Beelzebub, Shytan... probably more names than words that are written about the most negative role model in the religious world.
Yet what do we "know" about the devil?
As an atheist I find it fascinating that apart from him being the most beautiful and favored of gods archangels that got a bit above himself and was punished..We know Nothing. (I use "know" very loosely :))

It seems strange that as Lucifer is certainly the equal of god, in the sense that god is good, lucifer is bad, ying/yang and all the "light versus dark" stuff.
Is certainly equal in what we base out daily thoughts and actions upon... That we know nothing.

There is no other source to base our thoughts on..only "God's" point of view.
Now assuming that God had a press council to advise all the other angels, cherubim, seraphim etc about why their good mates had just been banished, we could equally assume that there is another side of the story?

Lets have a chat about the devil for a change.

Paul Pless
09-07-2014, 04:42 AM
Fart

Paul Pless
09-07-2014, 04:43 AM
The devil made me do it. :D

changeng
09-07-2014, 04:49 AM
Yeah..farts, envy, pride, and the other deadly's are all attributed to poor old
lucifer... what if's

Did god really think this thing through?

What if it was all just a political thing?
God could just have sacked him couldn't he?

I think I read somewhere this started the first war.

What if everything we "know" is wrong and Lucifer was actually a pretty chilled dude that wanted to just loosen things up a bit..you know.. make mind expanding drugs, sex and free thought not only cool but encouraged.
Let's face it, Lucifer has been used to terrorize humans for just wanting to get ahead, have fun, think outside the box..(another cringe worthy expression :D) for eons.

What if we are all victims of clever propaganda?

Paul Pless
09-07-2014, 04:59 AM
What if everything we "know" is wrong. . .are you sure you're really an atheist?

changeng
09-07-2014, 05:02 AM
are you sure you're really an atheist?

Intelectually of course I am..but like most of us..this guy has had an incredible and undeniable influence on my life.. worthy of some examination.

(well santa clause has as well, but he only influences my wallet)

Paul Pless
09-07-2014, 05:07 AM
Perhaps you've been tricked. ;)

changeng
09-07-2014, 05:14 AM
Perhaps you've been tricked. ;)
About Santa? never :D

About Lucifer? hmmm It would be nice to have a contemporary second opinion.

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 05:33 AM
You seemed to have missed a bit about ol Satan, he is not by definition an equal opposite of God, read Ezekiel 28:11-16 then Isaiah 14:16. He sorta gets to run some things, but he don't own any of it.

Syed
09-07-2014, 05:57 AM
No fun in the World and no •art from Paul without Devil.|:)

changeng
09-07-2014, 06:14 AM
You seemed to have missed a bit about ol Satan, he is not by definition an equal opposite of God, read Ezekiel 28:11-16 then Isaiah 14:16. He sorta gets to run some things, but he don't own any of it.

I know that was his status before all the argy bargy was gods favorite and because god could have nothing less than perfect in his best interviewing room or whatever, he was the prettiest etc but I didnt say he was equal.. more like his second in command..what I meant was that he is now seen as the other side of the coin. simplistically a coin has two equal sides. Yet we only write and talk and deep think about one. I don't have a bible so I cant read it.

changeng
09-07-2014, 06:17 AM
No fun in the World and no •art from Paul without Devil.|:)

No evil in the world without de debbil, thus more fun because all the things we think of as fun..someone usually comes along and reckons it's the devil that is behind it...so..no evil devil. no spoilsports

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 06:21 AM
If ya believe in God you have to believe he created all things, good and evil so ya can't blame the Devil dude for using what is already there. Smokim if ya gottim.:):)

changeng
09-07-2014, 06:31 AM
The more I think about it, a whole lot of bad things come out of this disrespect/disobedience thing between Lucifer and God.
Eve disobeyed and gave her sweetie and APPLE (because lucifer said, "go one darls he won't miss it") , Wow what a humungous crime. Since then women are sneaky and the cause everyone missing out on the big picnic in the botanical garden of all history.

Ham dissed his drunken father..so he gets banished and cursed.* edited after BOT corrected me mia culpa Y:o

If god had been a bit less uptight non of this mess would have happened.

Now..If old Lucifer had been in charge.. things might have been a little more relaxed..maybe not. but we never even think about the possibility.

changeng
09-07-2014, 06:34 AM
If ya believe in God you have to believe he created all things, good and evil so ya can't blame the Devil dude for using what is already there. Smokim if ya gottim.:):)

But I don't believe in god or the devil. But the good evil thing is hardwired from the day I was baptised :D
That's my point..God created evil so why do we hate Lucifer?

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 06:40 AM
Chang you are missing a lot of details in those stories, not about stealing or dissing read again and get back to me.

changeng
09-07-2014, 06:45 AM
Chang you are missing a lot of details in those stories, not about stealing or dissing read again and get back to me.

I havent got one. and who needs detail, It's pretty simple.
What I want to know is what Lucifer thought about it all.

skuthorp
09-07-2014, 06:47 AM
IF such a thing as god exists independent of human thought………
then "What if we are all victims of clever propaganda?" as Changeng said #4. But I would have said , IF such a thing as god exists, fraud and misrepresentation would have been a better word.
Which brings us neatly back to the basis of religions, or franchises as I prefer, in the first place.

We are really a pack of suckers you know, as P.T. Barnum is reputed to have said, 'there's one born every minute'.

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 06:49 AM
I havent got one. and who needs detail, It's pretty simple.
What I want to know is what Lucifer thought about it all. Well I think he was having a pretty good time with eve, till he got caught with his pants down, after that all hell broke loose.:)

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 06:51 AM
IF such a thing as god exists independent of human thought………
then "What if we are all victims of clever propaganda?" as Changeng said #4. But I would have said , IF such a thing as god exists, fraud and misrepresentation would have been a better word.
Which brings us neatly back to the basis of religions, or franchises as I prefer, in the first place.

We are really a pack of suckers you know, as P.T. Barnum is reputed to have said, 'there's one born every minute'. Most folks use religion to their advantage, real or imagined it seems to fill a lot of pockets. Read a sign once, It said, We create God in our own image. I think that is a very true statement.

Paul Pless
09-07-2014, 06:52 AM
The more I think about it, a whole lot of bad things come out of this disrespect/disobedience thing between Lucifer and God.
Eve disobeyed and gave her sweetie and APPLE (because lucifer said, "go one darls he won't miss it") , Wow what a humungous crime. Since then women are sneaky and the cause everyone missing out on the big picnic in the botanical garden of all history.

Ham dissed his drunken father..so he gets banished and all black people are bad.

If god had been a bit less uptight non of this mess would have happened.

Now..If old Lucifer had been in charge.. things might have been a little more relaxed..maybe not. but we never even think about the possibility.
So you believe the serpent that beguiled Eve, is the same as Satan?

skuthorp
09-07-2014, 06:54 AM
Most folks use religion to their advantage, real or imagined it seems to fill a lot of pockets.
Yea brother, it's been one of the better lurks since the tribal witch doctor got high and claimed to see god. Whereupon 'We are really a pack of suckers' applies.

purri
09-07-2014, 06:57 AM
We call ours Properway but there exists a practical mechanism for latitude in resolving decisions appropriate to circumstances. Some call it jurisprudence without lawyers

PeterSibley
09-07-2014, 07:00 AM
Yeah..farts, envy, pride, and the other deadly's are all attributed to poor old
lucifer... what if's

Did god really think this thing through?

What if it was all just a political thing?
God could just have sacked him couldn't he?

I think I read somewhere this started the first war.

What if everything we "know" is wrong and Lucifer was actually a pretty chilled dude that wanted to just loosen things up a bit..you know.. make mind expanding drugs, sex and free thought not only cool but encouraged.
Let's face it, Lucifer has been used to terrorize humans for just wanting to get ahead, have fun, think outside the box..(another cringe worthy expression :D) for eons.

What if we are all victims of clever propaganda?

Oh we are in so many ways but I bet we don't see 90% of it, if we did it wouldn't be working would it ?

The worst thing we can do is think we see all the tricks.

Peerie Maa
09-07-2014, 07:27 AM
I can't get my head around the fact that Christianity is supposed to be monotheistic. One supernatural being. So where do these other supernatural beings come from? There is either one supernatural being or there is not.

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 07:28 AM
I can't get my head around the fact that Christianity is supposed to be monotheistic. One supernatural being. So where do these other supernatural beings come from? There is either one supernatural being or there is not. I think it is kinda like an internet forum thing, you only really hear about one,but....

skuthorp
09-07-2014, 07:30 AM
I can't get my head around the fact that Christianity is supposed to be monotheistic. One supernatural being. So where do these other supernatural beings come from? There is either one supernatural being or there is not.
How many demi-gods, read saints, depends which unauthorised franchise you follow.

changeng
09-07-2014, 07:31 AM
So you believe the serpent that beguiled Eve, is the same as Satan?

Ah,,but was it actually a snake ?? or is that a sneaky zing from God's media Guys? I mean let's face it, over in the middle east one would look a little ridiculous saying a bunny rabbit told her it was OK.
No one likes snakes .

PeterSibley
09-07-2014, 07:32 AM
I can't get my head around the fact that Christianity is supposed to be monotheistic. One supernatural being. So where do these other supernatural beings come from? There is either one supernatural being or there is not.

The Christianity thing is beyond explanation, the Trinity including the genocidal father figure .

changeng
09-07-2014, 07:45 AM
The Christianity thing is beyond explanation, the Trinity including the genocidal father figure .

This isn't about christianity, most religions have a god or god's and and outcast bad guy..or at least something to fear.
This is about the old testament religions that tell us on one hand that there is this bad guy we have to protect ourselves from...note that the big guy washes his hands..(or whatever) of all responsibility..and one the other..if we dont do exactly as he says..he'll send us to live with this boogyman for all eternity.

Could be a blast :D

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 07:46 AM
I wasn't going to go here but with all these questions and misunderstandings, I will try to clear this up. Read the bible, drop a bit of acid, a few shrooms and it will be come really clear to you.:):) This advise is given freely and that is just what it is worth.:):)

PeterSibley
09-07-2014, 07:48 AM
I wasn't going to go here but with all these questions and misunderstandings, I will try to clear this up. Read the bible, drop a bit of acid, a few shrooms and it will be come really clear to you.:):) This advise is given freely and that is just what it is worth.:):)

Good advice ! Y>

PeterSibley
09-07-2014, 07:54 AM
This isn't about christianity, most religions have a god or god's and and outcast bad guy..or at least something to fear.
This is about the old testament religions that tell us on one hand that there is this bad guy we have to protect ourselves from...note that the big guy washes his hands..(or whatever) of all responsibility..and one the other..if we dont do exactly as he says..he'll send us to live with this boogyman for all eternity.

Could be a blast :D

If you need to believe in a good benevolent god you need someone to take the rap for the evil . But whether a god cares more for us than we do for the ants in our gardens and their sins is moot. Do we care about the evil sins of the ants ? Not very much .

Evil and good are very human constructs.

changeng
09-07-2014, 07:57 AM
I wasn't going to go here but with all these questions and misunderstandings, I will try to clear this up. Read the bible, drop a bit of acid, a few shrooms and it will be come really clear to you.:):) This advise is given freely and that is just what it is worth.:):)

But that's the point bobby. No one sensible uses just one source of information when making humungous choices ..sensible people get two or three or ten different references. reading the bible, and I assume you mean the old testament does not challenge the blindly accepted story about Lucifer..even in the interpretations of Judaism, Islam or christianity because it all comes from the same spin doctors.

changeng
09-07-2014, 07:58 AM
If you need to believe in a good benevolent god you need someone to take the rap for the evil . But whether a god cares more for us than we do for the ants in our gardens and their sins is moot. Do we care about the evil sins of the ants ? Not very much .

Evil and good are very human constructs.

Yeah..but I'm trying to get Lucifer a retrial :)

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 08:02 AM
Ok Chang, this is your fault. Do you know why the devil goes to the liquor store when he gets his tail cut off? FYI that is the one on his body.:):)

changeng
09-07-2014, 08:08 AM
Ok Chang, this is your fault. Do you know why the devil goes to the liquor store when he gets his tail cut off? FYI that is the one on his body.:):)

No why? :)

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 08:10 AM
No why? :) Cause that is where they retail spirits. I toll ya all this devil talk make me crazy er. Laugh or I will tell it again.:):)

changeng
09-07-2014, 08:22 AM
Cause that is where they retail spirits. I toll ya all this devil talk make me crazy er. Laugh or I will tell it again.:):)

Again,, wheeee :D

Rich Jones
09-07-2014, 08:26 AM
I'd love to hang around and talk about Satan, but it's Sunday morning and I'm headed to church!

changeng
09-07-2014, 08:30 AM
The original
Bedazzled with peter cook dud moore rachel welsh etc
Unfortunatly Fox seems to have blocked most Youtube clips

One of my very favorite films


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1c9zCFgIwM

changeng
09-07-2014, 08:32 AM
I'd love to hang around and talk about Satan, but it's Sunday morning and I'm headed to church!

Ask the vicar if there is another source on the subject :)

Rich Jones
09-07-2014, 08:38 AM
Ask the vicar if there is another source on the subject :)

It's the new Rector's first Sunday, I don't want to hit him with the big questions just yet!:)

changeng
09-07-2014, 08:43 AM
It's the new Rector's first Sunday, I don't want to hit him with the big questions just yet!:)

Ah go on ask him if in the spirit of christian charity if after 3000 years Lucifer deserves a retrial :D
Just kidding :0

skuthorp
09-07-2014, 08:58 AM
Sales meetings on the weekend?

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 08:59 AM
It's the new Rector's first Sunday, I don't want to hit him with the big questions just yet!:) Enjoy your morning sir.

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 09:01 AM
If what you believe makes life better for you, I am all for it.

changeng
09-07-2014, 09:09 AM
If what you believe makes life better for you, I am all for it.

No personal disrespect intended. just having a little fun with Lucifer :) and god

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 09:54 AM
Finally, someone has asked the most important question in all these God debates. You cannot discuss one without the other.
The Judeo-Christian bible, like all the spritual texts, is written as a cautionary tale. Is it the word of God? Well, isn't it ALL the word of God? If you aren't going to listen to the voices in your head, who are you going to listen to? The greater struggle is in figuring out what those voices mean.
It seems as though God was/is the lead scientist in this great experiment, with Lucifer (the light bearer) being his head assistant. Lucifer was equally qualified to run the lab, but God secured the funding, so it was God who was nominally in charge. Lucifer wanted to change the parameters, God gets pissed off and fires Lucifer and here we go. Dang, you are pretty smart for a mountain man. Morning ChrisW.:)

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 10:01 AM
Rule number one: DO NOT eat from the tree of knowledge.

You can't handle the truth!
God did not want humans to know what God knows. Lucifer, on the other hand wants humans to be on an equal level with God.
So Lucifer hits on Eve, Eve gets snaked, Adam says "fer Christ's sake woman put yer clothes on and don't bathe in the stream or else the fish will stink! That is kinda the way I read it too.:):) So it was really the fish that got punished???

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 10:12 AM
Doing good Bobby, for an old fart.
I did just as you suggested (drop acid-eat shrooms) a long time ago. It's amazing what you can hear if you sit still and listen. Sometimes its hard to turn it off though.

http://youtu.be/UNfS9Ywb2Cc I hear ya buddy, Stay cool dude.:)

Peerie Maa
09-07-2014, 10:25 AM
How many demi-gods, read saints, depends which unauthorised franchise you follow.

I've no problem with saints, they're just dead people. Its the angels and devils that are inconsistent with the idea of only one supernatural being.

Bobby of Tulsa
09-07-2014, 10:39 AM
I've no problem with saints, they're just dead people. Its the angels and devils that are inconsistent with the idea of only one supernatural being. Only one boss Nick.:):)

Gerarddm
09-07-2014, 10:45 AM
" I'M A FAN OF MAN! ". Al Pacino's great Devil rant from The Devil's Advocate:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RGR4SFOimlk

Rich Jones
09-07-2014, 12:36 PM
Ah go on ask him if in the spirit of christian charity if after 3000 years Lucifer deserves a retrial :D
Just kidding :0 The new Rector's first Sunday went just great. Everyone loves him (so far). As far as Lucifer getting a new trail, I do believe he's been permanently banned!:d

Minnesnowtan
09-07-2014, 01:43 PM
JOB: A Comedy of Justice by Robert Heinlein, read it, you may get a whole different view point.


The story examines religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion) through the eyes of Alex, a Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) political activist who is corrupted by Margrethe, a Danish Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology) cruise ship hostess — and who loves every minute of it. Enduring a shipwreck, an earthquake, and a series of world-changes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_universe_%28fiction%29) brought about by Loki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki) (with Jehovah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah)'s permission), Alex and Marga work their way from Mexico back to Kansas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas) as dishwasher and waitress.
Whenever they manage to make some stake, an inconveniently timed change into a new alternate reality throws them off their stride (once, the money they earned is left behind in another reality; in another case, the paper money earned in a Mexico which is an empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire) is worthless in another Mexico which is a republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic)). These repeated misfortunes, clearly effected by some malevolent entity, make the hero identify with the Biblical Job (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_%28Biblical_figure%29).
On the way they unknowingly enjoy the Texas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas) hospitality of Satan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan) himself, but as they near their destination they are separated by the Rapture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture) — Margrethe worships Odin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin), and pagans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism) do not go to Heaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven). Finding that the reward for his faith, eternity as promised in the Book of Revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation), is worthless without her, Alex's journey through timeless space in search of his lost lady takes him to Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell) and beyond.
Heinlein's vivid depiction of a Heaven ruled by snotty angels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels) and a Hell where everyone has a wonderful, or at least productive, time — with Mary Magdalene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene) shuttling breezily between both places — is a satire on American evangelical Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism). It owes much to Mark Twain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Twain)'s Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Stormfield%27s_Visit_to_Heaven).
The novel is linked to Heinlein's short story, "They (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_%28Heinlein%29)", by the term, "the Glaroon", and to his earlier novel The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_is_a_Harsh_Mistress) by referring to the Moon colonies "Luna City" and "Tycho Under".

Chip-skiff
09-07-2014, 01:57 PM
I like to climb the tree, for a look around.

http://media.tumblr.com/91024028c537e7713c1ea2e7ff74d814/tumblr_inline_mnemhlYJao1rpk3gm.jpg

Never seen any apples, so maybe it's the wrong tree.

Mike Erkkinen
09-07-2014, 03:08 PM
"There are all sorts of lesser imps and demons, Pete, but the great satan himself is all red and scaly with a bifurcated tail, and he carries a hay fork."

Ulyssis Everette MacGill in Brother....

Peerie Maa
09-07-2014, 03:42 PM
Only one boss Nick.:):)

Sounds like Hinduism, there all of the different deities are aspects or incantations of the boss god.

Waddie
09-07-2014, 04:49 PM
If God exists then Lucifer must exist to give the world free choice. Without choice there can be no salvation. So God allows evil in the world. Without temptation there is no overcoming temptation, therefore no good to be found. Or so the theory goes.

Put another way; in a world without ugly, would beauty exist?

regards,
Waddie

changeng
09-07-2014, 04:54 PM
Finally, someone has asked the most important question in all these God debates. You cannot discuss one without the other.
The Judeo-Christian bible, like all the spritual texts, is written as a cautionary tale. Is it the word of God? Well, isn't it ALL the word of God? If you aren't going to listen to the voices in your head, who are you going to listen to? The greater struggle is in figuring out what those voices mean.
It seems as though God was/is the lead scientist in this great experiment, with Lucifer (the light bearer) being his head assistant. Lucifer was equally qualified to run the lab, but God secured the funding, so it was God who was nominally in charge. Lucifer wanted to change the parameters, God gets pissed off and fires Lucifer and here we go.


Yay!!! someone else gets it.:D