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View Full Version : sitting while black is now illegal



John Smith
08-30-2014, 11:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWH578nAasM#t=99

S/V Laura Ellen
08-30-2014, 11:18 AM
You're a bit wrong.

It's legal, just not tolerated.

Too Little Time
08-30-2014, 11:54 AM
The black fellow was certainly polite.

I think the problem was that he was asked to leave a private area that he thought was a public area. At least the discussion is about private v. public. He thinks signage is necessary.

I did turn out poorly.


There was no reason for him to not move - except to assert his rights. Which is a great way to get arrested. There was no reason for him not to give the police his identification. But then the police did not give their identification either.


But when stubborn meets stupid, things don't turn out well.

Phillip Allen
08-30-2014, 12:10 PM
it looks bad...

Rum_Pirate
08-30-2014, 01:15 PM
That was anti-black racism in action.

Pure and simple.

What was he arrested for?

John Smith
08-30-2014, 01:17 PM
That was anti-black racism in action.

Pure and simple.

What was he arrested for?

Sitting while black. Kind of like driving while black, but you don't need a car.

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 01:25 PM
I don't suppose he could have just said , "OK , I'll move". There's sure not enough context in that video to know what started the confrontation.

It didn't end well , but if any of you where honestly looking at the situation , you'd come to the conclusion I did in my sentence above.

Your minds where made up when you clicked to view the video.

CWSmith
08-30-2014, 01:25 PM
The black fellow was certainly polite.

More polite than I could be.

Rum_Pirate
08-30-2014, 01:30 PM
I don't suppose he could have just said , "OK , I'll move". There's sure not enough context in that video to know what started the confrontation.

It didn't end well , but if any of you where honestly looking at the situation , you'd come to the conclusion I did in my sentence above.

Your minds where made up when you clicked to view the video.


Apparently he was sitting down waiting for his children (who apparently arrived during the recording) He did get up and move and the 'authorities' (police, mall security) etc harangued him to the outcome.

They said he was going to jail.

What would he have been arrested/charged for doing?

I very strongly suspect that they would not have done that if it had been a white person.

Rum_Pirate
08-30-2014, 01:32 PM
The black fellow was certainly polite.

I think the problem was that he was asked to leave a private area that he thought was a public area. At least the discussion is about private v. public. He thinks signage is necessary.

I did turn out poorly.


There was no reason for him to not move - except to assert his rights. Which is a great way to get arrested. There was no reason for him not to give the police his identification. But then the police did not give their identification either.


But when stubborn meets stupid, things don't turn out well.

To assert one's rights is now illegal and one gets arrested for it?

If one is sitting down or anywhere does a police officer have the authority to just walk up and demand identification in USA?

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 01:35 PM
Apparently he was sitting down waiting for his children (who apparently arrived during the recording) He did get up and move and the 'authorities' (police, mall security) etc harangued him to the outcome.

They said he was going to jail.

What would he have been arrested/charged for doing?

I very strongly suspect that they would not have done that if it had been a white person.


Arguing with a police officer or a mall security guard is like wrestling with a pig , you'll both get dirty and the pig likes it. And again YOU have no idea what took place before the filming started , you have to idea where he was sitting to begin with, BUT YOU have decided the cop and security guard are wrong.

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 01:40 PM
To assert one's rights is now illegal and one gets arrested for it?

If one is sitting down or anywhere does a police officer have the authority to just walk up and demand identification in USA?

If he was in a building he was on private property, if some ones sitting in on your property do you have any rights as a property owner, or representative ( mall cop)?

Horace
08-30-2014, 01:48 PM
But when stubborn meets stupid, things don't turn out well.


Your minds where made up when you clicked to view the video.The problem was the female officer begins. The problem is Im black, the man fires back. It really is, because Im not sitting there with a group of people. Im sitting there by myself. By myself, not causing a problem.

The guywas sitting/"loitering" in front of (within?) a bank. He was cuddly looking--not. Had he taken a second or two to hear the cop out, it would have probably ended with "Have a good day" all around.

He chose to play the race card, and (to be fair to the police) there was a potential for public endangerment.

But I too think the police went too far, too fast.

Horace
08-30-2014, 01:57 PM
Two links:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/28/1325409/-St-Paul-police-violently-arrest-a-black-man-for-sitting-on-bench-waiting-for-his-children-VIDEO

http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3546577.shtml?cat=1

Reynard38
08-30-2014, 05:02 PM
So he sits and waits for his kids with a hidden camera.
I smell something suspicious.
He was looking for trouble and he found it.
If asked for ID by the police you do have to provide it.

He played the race card and lost.

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 05:07 PM
So he sits and waits for his kids with a hidden camera.
I smell something suspicious.
He was looking for trouble and he found it.
If asked for ID by the police you do have to provide it.

He played the race card and lost.

Doubtful he'll lose in the end , he'll sue and be given millions for "pain and suffering" , the country is upside down in it's thought process.

skuthorp
08-30-2014, 05:10 PM
Everyone carries a camera these days. A mall is all private property by definition, even 'public' areas anyone can be asked to leave, or ejected, or arrested too it seems. That's how they get away with 'private police', a term that I really object to.

Donn
08-30-2014, 05:18 PM
If asked for ID by the police you do have to provide it.


That isn't necessarily true. It varies based on conditions and location.

Stop & Identify Statutes
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes)
Minnesota doesn't have one.

Too Little Time
08-30-2014, 05:26 PM
To assert one's rights is now illegal and one gets arrested for it?

If one is sitting down or anywhere does a police officer have the authority to just walk up and demand identification in USA?

Someone said this was a mall. Malls are private property. He was asked to leave. Then he was trespassing. As soon as the mall people contacted the police the police had a right to ask for id.

Had this been property owned by the public, you are correct.


I guess there are other posts that clear up the matter. The guy was trespassing on private property.

Too Little Time
08-30-2014, 05:43 PM
I used to bank in mall. There was a plate of cookies and guard at the door. The guard was always nice to people. He would offer cookies to anyone who walked through. (The bank had entrances to the mall and the parking lot.) He never objected to people just waiting in the bank. There was even a TV.


Now I bank at a credit union. A stand alone building. I don't think there is a guard. But anyone who comes in is treated well. I expect that on a hot day people might stop in for the air conditioning. Someone would certainly engage them in conversation to determine their purpose.

But I cannot imagine anyone being asked to leave either of these places.


Different times and places we live in.

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 06:00 PM
I used to bank in mall. There was a plate of cookies and guard at the door. The guard was always nice to people. He would offer cookies to anyone who walked through. (The bank had entrances to the mall and the parking lot.) He never objected to people just waiting in the bank. There was even a TV.


Now I bank at a credit union. A stand alone building. I don't think there is a guard. But anyone who comes in is treated well. I expect that on a hot day people might stop in for the air conditioning. Someone would certainly engage them in conversation to determine their purpose.

But I cannot imagine anyone being asked to leave either of these places.


Different times and places we live in.


The simple answer to this may be you are not a black man, you could well be , but ....

Chris Coose
08-30-2014, 06:03 PM
Doubtful he'll lose in the end , we'll sue and be given millions for "pain and suffering" , the country is upside down in it's thought process.

You could have opened a link, found this and not typed.


The outrageous incident actually happened in January, but police kept the confiscated phone for six months.
All charges against Chris Lollie, the man in the video, were eventually dropped.

Too Little Time
08-30-2014, 06:06 PM
The simple answer to this may be you are not a black man, you could well be , but ....

I have observed black people being treated no differently than I am.

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 06:14 PM
You could have opened a link, found this and not typed.


I saw that , I looked at both links in post #14 I believe it was. I should have type "he'll" sue , instead of "we'll" sue . Do you not think he'll find a lawyer , or really that a lawyer won't find him now that he's got the phone and more importantly the video back from the police?

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 06:18 PM
I have observed black people being treated no differently than I am.


I'm sure you have and bet that is what happens 90 to 95 % of the time, but when it doesn't, as in this case, how come some one has a camera turned on at just the "right time"?

Phil Y
08-30-2014, 06:23 PM
An awful lot of people here, particularly indigent or indigenous, who come into contact with police, seem to end up being charged only with Resisting arrest, assaulting police officer. I always wonder why they were being arrested in the first place. There never seems to be a satisfactory answer.

changeng
08-30-2014, 06:28 PM
To answer one question.

.."
After watching the video, we asked attorney Dan Atkins if it's required by law to tell police your name when asked.
"You have an absolute right to not answer an officers questions. You have a fifth amendment right to not answer that question," Atkins said.
If this happens to you, Atkins says the first question to ask the officer is, "am I under arrest?" If the answer is no, he says you should just walk way. "

So.. You do have the right to refuse to identify yourself.

A hypothisis??
A Mall is of course a private space. It is also a business requiring people to avail themselves of that space in order to make money.
I believe it is illegal for a private business to discriminate on race?.

So why was this man asked to leave? No one seems to have addressed this question. I posit that a bank employee asked security to remove him because they believe he was "acting suspicious."

What was he doing to act suspicious? That's the question

That's the trouble with private police.. they have a private paymaster but get backup from public authorities who, understandably maybe, tend to take the word of the private cop..(after all, they are supposed to be doing a policing job):rolleyes:.
One could theorize that if a regular state police had been called, they would have explained to the complainee that there is no law against sitting and that "looking suspicious" is subjective
The question that firstly needs to be asked of the female private security guard.. is why she asked him to leave?


Seriously, if black people should just do as they are told by private cops in order to avoid trouble they may as well just give up and disenfranchise themselves from the electoral process.

Horace
08-30-2014, 06:42 PM
Re post #27: "So why was this man asked to leave?"

I missed where he was asked to leave; I thought the issue was that he was was asked to identify himself after a bank employee called the security forces. He was apparently seated within the confines of a bank, without doing business in the bank, for an undetermined length of time. Given the propensity of people to rob banks (or to case them), the "police," whatever type they may have been, were not out of line to ask for ID. Neither side, unfortunately, had the sense to take a deep breath and avoid confrontation.

changeng
08-30-2014, 07:02 PM
Well apparently the security guards were out of line to ask for ID.

You have rights, I have rights, he has rights. I ask you what is the point of having rights enshrined in the constitution if one does not defend those rights?

It's always amusing the way people vehemently defend those rights when it comes to guns, but think upholding those rights when it comes to such basics as freedom of movement, association etc is asking for trouble:rolleyes:

(well it's not actually amusing, it's downright dumb)

The man gave a perfectly good reason for sitting there, waiting for his kids. The police should have backed right off when his kids arrived. But no.. they couldn't be seen to be in the wrong so they escalated the confrontation and taserd him.
how anyone can defend this is completely beyond me.

PeterSibley
08-30-2014, 07:14 PM
The black fellow was certainly polite.

I think the problem was that he was asked to leave a private area that he thought was a public area. At least the discussion is about private v. public. He thinks signage is necessary.

I did turn out poorly.


There was no reason for him to not move - except to assert his rights. Which is a great way to get arrested. There was no reason for him not to give the police his identification. But then the police did not give their identification either.


But when stubborn meets stupid, things don't turn out well.

That sounds ominous ... does it happen to whites ?

PeterSibley
08-30-2014, 07:15 PM
I have observed black people being treated no differently than I am.

as have I but also the reverse.

Horace
08-30-2014, 07:25 PM
That sounds ominous ... does it happen to whites ?Peter, I suspect it would--if you were not a known customer, came in, and loitered for an extended length of time without transacting business.

Bank employees receive training to enable identification of potential threats, and would be remiss in not notifying security if indicated. We don't know what prompted the employee to call the police.

changeng
08-30-2014, 07:32 PM
Peter, I suspect it would--if you were not a known customer, came in, and loitered for an extended length of time without transacting business.

Bank employees receive training to enable identification of potential threats, and would be remiss in not notifying security if indicated. We don't know what prompted the employee to call the police.

Why do banks have security cameras?

PeterSibley
08-30-2014, 07:40 PM
Peter, I suspect it would--if you were not a known customer, came in, and loitered for an extended length of time without transacting business.

Bank employees receive training to enable identification of potential threats, and would be remiss in not notifying security if indicated. We don't know what prompted the employee to call the police.

Hmm, I assure you anyone can sit in a public area outside a bank, outside a pizza shop for as long as they choose (here)....even wearing a hoodie and not be arrested or asked to move on.

Most especially if it's a parent explaining that he is waiting for his children.

S/V Laura Ellen
08-30-2014, 07:57 PM
I was in the bank on Friday. There was a homeless lady in the bank, getting some relief from the heat, a cup of coffee and was reading the newspaper.
The police weren't called, security didn't ask her to leave, no one was arrested, people went about their business and life as we know it didn't come to a screeching halt.

Horace
08-30-2014, 08:00 PM
Hmm, I assure you anyone can sit in a public area outside a bank, outside a pizza shop for as long as they choose (here)....even wearing a hoodie and not be arrested or asked to move on.

Most especially if it's a parent explaining that he is waiting for his children.Peter, he was apparently inside the bank. Why are you discussing "outside a bank, outside a pizza shop?"

ETA--By the time he protested that he was waiting for his children the incident was up-and-running.

Horace
08-30-2014, 08:06 PM
Why do banks have security cameras?Pardon, what's your point about security cameras?

(Please bear in mind that I think both parties overreacted.)

Jim Mahan
08-30-2014, 08:15 PM
I have observed black people being treated no differently than I am.


I'm sure you have and bet that is what happens 90 to 95 % of the time,...

Surely this is some kind of sarcasm because you can't possibly be serious. Do you two honestly believe people who happen to be black are' playing the race card' by being black? Do you not have any idea what kinds of hardship and outright misery pretty much all people of color and especially black people have every day in the USA? Do you have any idea of the outrageous disparity in the criminal justice system between the races in our country, not to mention the for-profit privatized prison industry? Are you just completely tone deaf? "Is there still racism in our country?" Seriously? "Why there are some fine black doctors and movie stars, you must be mistaken, America is all about equality of opportunity, you just have to work hard and you, too, can have the American Dream."

I live in area that is one of the most racially diverse in the country. I didn't choose it for that reason, but I am glad it is the case. Even though I don't see blatant racism in my everyday life, it is most certainly there. Can you non-black people even imagine what it must be like to be a black man in America and have to carry around the burden of knowing that simply by being black you are more than likely to be stopped, questioned, harrassed, maybe beaten or arrested or killed by white guys in uniforms with guns, at the same time knowing and living with the fact that, just because you're black you're going to be subject to all kinds of silent, subtle, but ubiquitous racism in your job-hunting, in your career? Can you imagine for a minute what it must be like for an ordinary family man working stiff to have other people cross the street because you and a couple of friends are out for a walk? I am happy that I came here from southern Oregon, where pretty much everything is peachy and white. It's that way because black folk know that except for some places like Portland or Eugene, you better not be there after dark if you know what's good for you. That ever the case with any of you white woodenboat forum members?

The more I read about the extent of institutional racism and every-day on the street racism, and some other isms as well, like sexism, genderism, poorism, (if that's not a word, it should be, it is definitely a big problem in our egalitarian society) and ageism, I am appalled and just about ashamed to be a man, to be caucasion, to be an American. I almost wish I was six years old again, so I could believe in the wonderful ideas that are part of the propaganda of the equality myth in our country.

Rum_Pirate
08-30-2014, 08:19 PM
This appears to be pertinent


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5dy9URkLFI

S/V Laura Ellen
08-30-2014, 08:28 PM
Surely this is some kind of sarcasm because you can't possibly be serious. Do you two honestly believe people who happen to be black are' playing the race card' by being black? Do you not have any idea what kinds of hardship and outright misery pretty much all people of color and especially black people have every day in the USA? Do you have any idea of the outrageous disparity in the criminal justice system between the races in our country, not to mention the for-profit privatized prison industry? Are you just completely tone deaf? "Is there still racism in our country?" Seriously? "Why there are some fine black doctors and movie stars, you must be mistaken, America is all about equality of opportunity, you just have to work hard and you, too, can have the American Dream."

I live in area that is one of the most racially diverse in the country. I didn't choose it for that reason, but I am glad it is the case. Even though I don't see blatant racism in my everyday life, it is most certainly there. Can you non-black people even imagine what it must be like to be a black man in America and have to carry around the burden of knowing that simply by being black you are more than likely to be stopped, questioned, harrassed, maybe beaten or arrested or killed by white guys in uniforms with guns, at the same time knowing and living with the fact that, just because you're black you're going to be subject to all kinds of silent, subtle, but ubiquitous racism in your job-hunting, in your career? Can you imagine for a minute what it must be like for an ordinary family man working stiff to have other people cross the street because you and a couple of friends are out for a walk? I am happy that I came here from southern Oregon, where pretty much everything is peachy and white. It's that way because black folk know that except for some places like Portland or Eugene, you better not be there after dark if you know what's good for you. That ever the case with any of you white woodenboat forum members?

The more I read about the extent of institutional racism and every-day on the street racism, and some other isms as well, like sexism, genderism, poorism, (if that's not a word, it should be, it is definitely a big problem in our egalitarian society) and ageism, I am appalled and just about ashamed to be a man, to be caucasion, to be an American. I almost wish I was six years old again, so I could believe in the wonderful ideas that are part of the propaganda of the equality myth in our country.


Well said!

Sky Blue
08-30-2014, 08:32 PM
Do you not have any idea what kinds of hardship and outright misery pretty much all people of color and especially black people have every day in the USA?



This view is so utterly nave and paternalistic that the outlook it represents is itself arguably racist and should be dismissed.
.

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 08:37 PM
This view is so utterly nave and paternalistic that the outlook it represents is itself arguably racist and should be dismissed.
.


You got that right!

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 08:38 PM
Well said!


Poppy Cock! See post #41.

Chris Coose
08-30-2014, 08:39 PM
Surely this is some kind of sarcasm because you can't possibly be serious. Do you two honestly believe people who happen to be black are' playing the race card' by being black?

Touche'.

Horace
08-30-2014, 08:41 PM
I live in area that is one of the most racially diverse in the country. I didn't choose it for that reason, but I am glad it is the case. West Sacramento? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Sacramento,_California#Demographics) Pshaw. Less than 5% black.


I am appalled and just about ashamed to be a man, to be caucasion, to be an American. All of those are correctable, you know. ;)

PeterSibley
08-30-2014, 08:45 PM
Peter, he was apparently inside the bank. Why are you discussing "outside a bank, outside a pizza shop?"

ETA--By the time he protested that he was waiting for his children the incident was up-and-running.

I will bet you $100 I can go and sit in any bank in town here ( ones at which I am not a customer) and NOT be approached by staff and if I am by some freak of chance ,saying I'm waiting for someone would be sufficient excuse to sit there for 30 minutes at least.

But then I'm white and not of Middle Eastern appearance.

Too Little Time
08-30-2014, 08:59 PM
Surely this is some kind of sarcasm because you can't possibly be serious. Do you two honestly believe people who happen to be black are' playing the race card' by being black?

I was once stopped for a "non-crime." I thought I should be "cute."

Trip to the police station. Wait for my wife to pick me up. Citations.


No racism. Just me being "cute." Just like the guy in the video.

Too Little Time
08-30-2014, 09:03 PM
I will bet you $100 I can go and sit in any bank in town here ( ones at which I am not a customer) and NOT be approached by staff and if I am by some freak of chance ,saying I'm waiting for someone would be sufficient excuse to sit there for 30 minutes at least.

But then I'm white and not of Middle Eastern appearance.

I will bet you $100 I can go into any bank in your town, behave in a similar manner and be arrested.

But them I am white.

PeterSibley
08-30-2014, 09:07 PM
Your gun will be showing . It's a dead giveaway in Australia.

changeng
08-30-2014, 09:15 PM
This view is so utterly nave and paternalistic that the outlook it represents is itself arguably racist and should be dismissed.
.


Why?
You state that it is naive and paternalistic arguably racist and should be dismissed.

I suppose this man is Naive and paternalistic too?
And his view should be dismissed?

The POTUS


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQvEs6XxoW4

"...Should be dismissed.."?

I would suggest that you simply don't like what JM said But you should be defending to the death his right to say it:rolleyes:

John Smith
08-30-2014, 09:33 PM
Arguing with a police officer or a mall security guard is like wrestling with a pig , you'll both get dirty and the pig likes it. And again YOU have no idea what took place before the filming started , you have to idea where he was sitting to begin with, BUT YOU have decided the cop and security guard are wrong.

You can put a context around this video that justifies using a taser?

John Smith
08-30-2014, 09:34 PM
If he was in a building he was on private property, if some ones sitting in on your property do you have any rights as a property owner, or representative ( mall cop)?

I can't tell you how often I've sat on a chair on private property in a mall waiting for my wife to shop. Never had a problem.

John Smith
08-30-2014, 09:38 PM
Someone said this was a mall. Malls are private property. He was asked to leave. Then he was trespassing. As soon as the mall people contacted the police the police had a right to ask for id.

Had this been property owned by the public, you are correct.


I guess there are other posts that clear up the matter. The guy was trespassing on private property.

a guy who is sitting and waiting for his children isn't threatening anyone. He's not bothering anyone. He just happens to be black.

It's not always the 'race card'. Sometimes it's actual racism.

John Smith
08-30-2014, 09:41 PM
I'm sure you have and bet that is what happens 90 to 95 % of the time, but when it doesn't, as in this case, how come some one has a camera turned on at just the "right time"?

MOre and more people have cameras on them at all times. If I were a black man I'd be sure I had a video camera of some kind with me at all times. How often do you suppose this sort of thing happens when there is no camera?

John Smith
08-30-2014, 09:44 PM
Re post #27: "So why was this man asked to leave?"

I missed where he was asked to leave; I thought the issue was that he was was asked to identify himself after a bank employee called the security forces. He was apparently seated within the confines of a bank, without doing business in the bank, for an undetermined length of time. Given the propensity of people to rob banks (or to case them), the "police," whatever type they may have been, were not out of line to ask for ID. Neither side, unfortunately, had the sense to take a deep breath and avoid confrontation.


Which "side" consists of trained professionals? It looks to me he was suspicious simply because he was black, much like Travon Martin.

John Smith
08-30-2014, 09:52 PM
This view is so utterly nave and paternalistic that the outlook it represents is itself arguably racist and should be dismissed.
.

Some of us have witnessed it. My neighbor, years ago, was a cop. I got invited to a party at his home and heard him talking with other cops. Their idea of fun was to give a black driver a speeding ticket without the black driver actually speeding. Two cops would appear in court and swear they poor guy was going 60 in a 25 zone. What is that if not racism?

If a black employee made our doughnut run at 4 am, he had an excellent chance of being pulled over as he drove through Glen Ridge. Apparently it's illegal for a black man to drive through Glen Ridge during the dark hours, even on county roads.

We had a black supervisor doing route inspection in Clifton a fair number of years back. In a white neighborhood a homeowner thought he was suspicious and called the cops. In spite of the letter carrier explaining his presence, and in spite of two Postmasters verifying his reason for being there, he spent the night in jail.

It's pretty common knowledge that the death penalty has been used disproportionately to execute black men. Sentences for drug crimes for black men are longer. Racism is alive and well.

John Smith
08-30-2014, 09:54 PM
OH OH; post count reached the "I'm in trouble" mark.

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 10:13 PM
You can put a context around this video that justifies using a taser?


Ya, he started to resist the cop , would you rather he just shot him with his service revolver?

changeng
08-30-2014, 10:22 PM
Ya, he started to resist the cop , would you rather he just shot him with his service revolver?

So you would have just wordlessly shown your ID and picked yourself up and moved when asked by a Rent-a-cop?

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 10:30 PM
So you would have just wordlessly shown your ID and picked yourself up and moved when asked by a Rent-a-cop?


Yes, more than likely I would have. If the Building department says "add a metal strap "here" , I generally do what they ask , like I said earlier in this thread " Arguing with a cop / building inspector / Officer of the Deck / your shop Chief / your boss, is like wrestling with a pig , you both get dirty and the pig likes it!"

John Smith
08-30-2014, 10:33 PM
Ya, he started to resist the cop , would you rather he just shot him with his service revolver?

There were many option open to the cop. He could have stayed with the man until the children came, insuring safety for the bank. Since the children did arrive, once they came, everyone could have gone on their way.

Now, if he claims he's waiting for his children and the don't get there, then maybe there's reason for suspicion.

changeng
08-30-2014, 10:48 PM
Yes, more than likely I would have. If the Building department says "add a metal strap "here" , I generally do what they ask , like I said earlier in this thread " Arguing with a cop / building inspector / Officer of the Deck / your shop Chief / your boss, is like wrestling with a pig , you both get dirty and the pig likes it!"

So the next question is...why would you do that?
Why would you allow a private hire cop to move you along when you are just sitting in seats provided to be sat on?
Why? would you not quietly ask a simple question in defense of your undoubted harmless sitting?
Why?

You don't strike me as a person that regularly would allow yourself to be pushed around..are you?

Nicholas Scheuer
08-30-2014, 10:51 PM
The female cop is a shi-head. And they're asking questions about Ferguson?

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 11:05 PM
So the next question is...why would you do that?
Why would you allow a private hire cop to move you along when you are just sitting in seats provided to be sat on?
Why? would you not quietly ask a simple question in defense of your undoubted harmless sitting?
Why?

You don't strike me as a person that regularly would allow yourself to be pushed around..are you?


I tend to get along well with others , I'm not very confrontational. When it comes to arguing with a building inspector "proving your right" means getting a engineer to approve your design , which cost $$ is it's more than "adding a strap" or what ever the inspector wants it's not worth the $$'s to get a engineer involved. If you continue to go around a building inspector he will "find" things to make you do again not worth the effort.

Same rules apply with cops , I avoid them as a general rule , I don't speed I don't drink and drive , I obey traffic laws, the few times I've been stopped by cops I'm respectful , I've only been given one speeding ticket in my life.

I do know cops to profile I have a Mexican guy who works with me , every time we've driven to a job site he's 1/2 a mile behind driving slower than a old women , he's been pulled over five time in the few years he worked with us , my guess is because he Mexican , not because he speeds .

Reynard38
08-30-2014, 11:08 PM
He was out weaponed and out numbered.
He chose poorly.

Gotta pick your battles.

PeterSibley
08-30-2014, 11:19 PM
I tend to get along well with others , I'm not very confrontational. When it comes to arguing with a building inspector "proving your right" means getting a engineer to approve your design , which cost $$ is it's more than "adding a strap" or what ever the inspector wants it's not worth the $$'s to get a engineer involved. If you continue to go around a building inspector he will "find" things to make you do again not worth the effort.

Same rules apply with cops , I avoid them as a general rule , I don't speed I don't drink and drive , I obey traffic laws, the few times I've been stopped by cops I'm respectful , I've only been given one speeding ticket in my life.

I do know cops to profile I have a Mexican guy who works with me , every time we've driven to a job site he's 1/2 a mile behind driving slower than a old women , he's been pulled over five time in the few years he worked with us , my guess is because he Mexican , not because he speeds .

Well proven Paul, if you're black (or Mexican) just shut up, say yes sir , no sir , what ever you say sir and you may not get your a$$ kicked. So much for equal rights.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

Jim Mahan
08-30-2014, 11:28 PM
Just to be clear, in case anyone wondered, I'm not calling anyone here a racist, I'm only suggesting that some seem to have the idea that racism is a thing of the past or not really a problem because most of us are innocent and not involved; IOW unaware.

There was a really good monologue on the subject just in the last week or so by Jon Stewart on The Daily Show, expressed more eloquently than what I put out here, but saying essentially the same thing. It is out there, it has been for a long time, it, racism, in all it's various ugliness is, well, obscene, and we really should be better than that, and finally rise above it. Lots of other places on the planet, where there isn't necessarily a tradition of speaking up for fairness and justice for all, and bragging about our supposed equality, as here, manage to get along without it, or with a lot less of it. Of course there are small-minded and fearful, hateful folks everywhere around the planet. Hopefully we will be able to evolve beyond that.

skuthorp
08-30-2014, 11:34 PM
You know, demographics being what they are, in a few years time old wasp's will be complaining when a cop of Mexican extraction stops them.

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 11:36 PM
Just to be clear, in case anyone wondered, I'm not calling anyone here a racist, I'm only suggesting that some seem to have the idea that racism is a thing of the past or not really a problem because most of us are innocent and not involved; IOW unaware.

There was a really good monologue on the subject just in the last week or so by Jon Stewart on The Daily Show, expressed more eloquently than what I put out here, but saying essentially the same thing. It is out there, it has been for a long time, it, racism, in all it's various ugliness is, well, obscene, and we really should be better than that, and finally rise above it. Lots of other places on the planet, where there isn't necessarily a tradition of speaking up for fairness and justice for all, and bragging about our supposed equality, as here, manage to get along without it, or with a lot less of it. Of course there are small-minded and fearful, hateful folks everywhere around the planet. Hopefully we will be able to evolve beyond that.


America and Americans do not have the market on racism cornered , you're right about that, it's every where there are people, it's human nature. The USA has come a long way, but the trips not over , there's lots of room for improvement here in the states.

ETA: What is IOW

Jim Mahan
08-30-2014, 11:41 PM
In Other Words

Paul Girouard
08-30-2014, 11:42 PM
In Other Words


Thanks. Seems to fit with the unaware part LOL.

AussieBarney
08-30-2014, 11:58 PM
I AM A BLACKFELLER. try walking a mile in my shoes and you will find, in my world, there is no such thing as "equality". it don't exist, it is a dream. Anyone who says it does exist is a white man

Horace
08-31-2014, 12:00 AM
Hmm, I assure you anyone can sit in a public area outside a bank, outside a pizza shop for as long as they choose (here)....even wearing a hoodie and not be arrested or asked to move on.

Most especially if it's a parent explaining that he is waiting for his children.Peter, I need to say this for the record: the news story in this link (http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3546577.shtml?cat=1), although a local source, may not be correct about Mr. Lollie being inside the bank. In fact, there seem to be multiple narratives in regard to where he was sitting and what happened. Of course, that still doesn't leave either the police or Mr. Lollie free of incorrect behavior.

But without good information it does make it hard to discuss, so I'll bow out and leave you all to work out a consensus as to reliable facts.

PeterSibley
08-31-2014, 12:15 AM
I AM A BLACKFELLER. try walking a mile in my shoes and you will find, in my world, there is no such thing as "equality". it don't exist, it is a dream. Anyone who says it does exist is a white man

Seen every day .

Barney's right. He will get the same treatment here the bloke in the vid got.

I won't.

changeng
08-31-2014, 02:17 AM
I tend to get along well with others , I'm not very confrontational. When it comes to arguing with a building inspector "proving your right" means getting a engineer to approve your design , which cost $$ is it's more than "adding a strap" or what ever the inspector wants it's not worth the $$'s to get a engineer involved. If you continue to go around a building inspector he will "find" things to make you do again not worth the effort.

Same rules apply with cops , I avoid them as a general rule , I don't speed I don't drink and drive , I obey traffic laws, the few times I've been stopped by cops I'm respectful , I've only been given one speeding ticket in my life.

I do know cops to profile I have a Mexican guy who works with me , every time we've driven to a job site he's 1/2 a mile behind driving slower than a old women , he's been pulled over five time in the few years he worked with us , my guess is because he Mexican , not because he speeds .

You still havent said WHY you obey without question even when you are withing your rights and doing no wrong to anything or any body..I will suggest it's because you fear the consequences should you have an unlucky day and pick the wrong cop to stand your ground to.. No?

AussieBarney
08-31-2014, 05:41 AM
For the life of me, I cannot understand your way of thinking Paul. If a cop is out of line, he needs to be slapped back into line, hard!!!!. There are just as many rules pertaining to a cop's behaviour as there is for the poor mug on the street......My take on the problems America is having with law enforcement, and Yes, you are having problems.....For too long , the police are too used to everyone "Being polite" I would call it, "Tugging the forelock" The same way a 14th century peasant would have been made to do when the lord and his bully boys came looking for the rent........Sod them, If they are out of line. I have a real cute way of handling them.....I go limp, no resistance. Wen I arrive at the station I immediately ask for a complaint form, this is normally refused. I then ask again in front of my lawyer. that request is never refused. it Is astonishing how often the police decide not to proceed with the charge.....Funny that!!!!! Be a real citizen, stand on your dig and maybe, just maybe America may get their police forces under control.......My problems are normally around the concept of "Reasonable Cause"......In other words it's about some jerk off cop getting in my face with out the legal right to do so............... I am a free and enfranchised citizen of my state and have been since 1967 I will respect someone if they give me reason to, but, I tug the forelock to no man.

Phillip Allen
08-31-2014, 06:43 AM
For the life of me, I cannot understand your way of thinking Paul. If a cop is out of line, he needs to be slapped back into line, hard!!!!. There are just as many rules pertaining to a cop's behaviour as there is for the poor mug on the street......My take on the problems America is having with law enforcement, and Yes, you are having problems.....For too long , the police are too used to everyone "Being polite" I would call it, "Tugging the forelock" The same way a 14th century peasant would have been made to do when the lord and his bully boys came looking for the rent........Sod them, If they are out of line. I have a real cute way of handling them.....I go limp, no resistance. Wen I arrive at the station I immediately ask for a complaint form, this is normally refused. I then ask again in front of my lawyer. that request is never refused. it Is astonishing how often the police decide not to proceed with the charge.....Funny that!!!!! Be a real citizen, stand on your dig and maybe, just maybe America may get their police forces under control.......My problems are normally around the concept of "Reasonable Cause"......In other words it's about some jerk off cop getting in my face with out the legal right to do so............... I am a free and enfranchised citizen of my state and have been since 1967 I will respect someone if they give me reason to, but, I tug the forelock to no man.

my feelings too... that said, I'm pretty easy to beat up

John Smith
08-31-2014, 09:59 AM
So the next question is...why would you do that?
Why would you allow a private hire cop to move you along when you are just sitting in seats provided to be sat on?
Why? would you not quietly ask a simple question in defense of your undoubted harmless sitting?
Why?

You don't strike me as a person that regularly would allow yourself to be pushed around..are you?

Even if you are stopped somewhere by the police, are you not entitled to know why you were stopped? I haven't been stopped often, but the few times I have been, I've been given a reason.

One day back in the 60's I got stopped several times the same day driving on the Garden State Parkway. These stops were without a reason being give. Finally, on the 3rd or 4th time, I told the cop I had been stopped several times already. He finally explained they had a stolen car report and my car matched the description, and I might expect to get stopped some more.

Paul Girouard
08-31-2014, 11:32 AM
You still havent said WHY you obey without question even when you are withing your rights and doing no wrong to anything or any body..I will suggest it's because you fear the consequences should you have an unlucky day and pick the wrong cop to stand your ground to.. No?


Oh , I might ask why, but I'm sure as hell not going to get into a piss match with the cop or building official.

S.V. Airlie
08-31-2014, 11:54 AM
I did once! Stopped a cop for speeding without even lights. Told him he was just making a run to dunk'n donuts (looed like he had eaten a few!:)), there was no fire and the donuts were still fresh. Helped I was wearing a state uniform too but, boy was he pissed!

Too Little Time
08-31-2014, 12:20 PM
a guy who is sitting and waiting for his children isn't threatening anyone. He's not bothering anyone. He just happens to be black.

It's not always the 'race card'. Sometimes it's actual racism.

A year or so ago I was out bicycling. I went into a store and bought a cup of soda and paid for it. I was sitting outside of the store drinking it whean a clerk came out and asked if I had forgotten to pay for the Gatoraid in my back pocket.

I guess I could have caused a problem, but I expect people have reason to ask such questions. I explained I had just added water to my bottle. And I showed them my Gatoraid bottle. It had obviously been opened and the label and band under the top had been removed.

I went out of my way to avoid any issues. Had the clerk demanded that I pay for the Gatoraid, I would have.

There is a difference in outcomes depending on if you assert your rights or grant other people their rights. It serves one well to remember that.


But your comments caused me to re-evaluate the evidence we had. I looked for black people in the video. I saw some people who might have been black, but I would not say I saw any. The incident takes place on the second floor. I looked to see if the school was in the same building on the second floor or not. I could not determine.

There is not a lot of information to make a claim of racism. Not much the other way either.

ccmanuals
08-31-2014, 02:26 PM
Poppy Cock! See post #41.

Post 41 is poppy cock

ccmanuals
08-31-2014, 02:43 PM
I guess I have been riding with my son in law at least a dozen times when he has been pulled over. Usually for speeding. But I have yet to see him get a ticket. He flashes his badge and all is well. Have a nice day.