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cs
08-15-2014, 06:46 AM
Very seldom do I dive into the political arena and get involved with mud slinging and all that and this is not intended as that type of post, but I'm sure it will head there. :rolleyes: All I want is an honest answer with maybe a little support for your answer.

I saw on Facebook the other day and then did a little research on my own and while I don't really believe all the left or right has to say, hell I don't even believe what the middle has to say, But I did read a few articles and one was even from the Washington Post and yes I even watched the actual video. The video was cut and pasted in a few places hinting at the fact that maybe something was taken out of context.

You see one of the things I believe in is character and taking responsibility for your actions. I may or may not agree with what you do, you may know something I don't, and I will respect your decisions but on the flip side you have to take responsibility for your decision.

So with that said is it true the President Obama is claiming that the troop withdrawal from Iraq was not his decision? That it was the decision of the Iraqi parliament to pull our troops out and he had nothing to do with it? I'm kinda confused on this. I mean isn't he the Commander in Chief and the leader of our nation? Is he not the one that campaigned on pulling the troops out of Iraq and then boasted that he was the one that brought the troops home?

Please tell me there is more than I see at first glance. I hate to think that the leader of our country is not man enough to take responsibility for his actions and would rather play the elementary school blame game. The decision to pull troops out or send more in is way above my pay grade and so I have to trust those above me to make the right choice.

The mark of a true man (or woman) is not the ability to make the right choice every time, but rather to take responsibility for their choices. If this is true I am embarrassed and ashamed for my great nation. It is shameful when your leader wants to play first grade games.

Chad

PeterSibley
08-15-2014, 07:05 AM
To the best of my knowledge the Iraqi government wanted any US troops remaining in Iraq to come under local law, this was not acceptable to the US admin so they left. Others will elaborate I'm sure.

skuthorp
08-15-2014, 07:06 AM
I do believe that the US was asked to leave, sort of. They wanted all the gear of course, and the money flow, and advisors, and most like;y special forces. But most US military personnel left. Obama did promise to get them out as I recall.
There's this Chad. "President Obama's speech formally declaring that the last 43,000 U.S. troops will leave Iraq by the end of the year was designed to mask an unpleasant truth: The troops aren't being withdrawn because the U.S. wants them out. They're leaving because the Iraqi government refused to let them stay."
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/10/us-troops-are-leaving-because-iraq-doesnt-want-them-there/247174/

This is somewhat ironic though, if ironic is the right word in a massacre and rout.
"Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, believes its own security forces are more than up to the task of protecting the country from terror attacks originating within its borders or foreign incursions from neighboring countries."

cs
08-15-2014, 07:07 AM
and I would understand even though I heard that the Iraqi Parliament agreed for our troops not to come under local law.

Chad

PeterSibley
08-15-2014, 07:09 AM
Malaki made a few bad choices and now a lot of his countrymen will die for them.

skuthorp
08-15-2014, 07:12 AM
I think there were several 'chapters' in this story, and then there's your local political angle where any truth is thoroughly muddied.
Whole google page of stuff on the subject here: http://www.google.com.au/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=US+forces+asked+to+leave+iraq&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=pfbtU_iRL5XEoASehYCICQ

LeeG
08-15-2014, 07:15 AM
and I would understand even though I heard that the Iraqi Parliament agreed for our troops not to come under local law.

Chad

I don't know which agency in Iraq or the US is responsible for negotiating the terms of the SOFA but it was pretty clear that occupying troops would not be exempt from Iraqi law therefore no SOFA, time to go.

cs
08-15-2014, 07:19 AM
I understand that the pull out of troops from Iraq was more a combination of the wants of Iraq and our desire to bring the troops home. In other words way more below the surface then I know and I get that and I'm not going to argue or defend that decision with right or wrong.

I guess what really gets me is the President up to this point claiming "I pulled the troops out" and then when things start going south says "It was not my decision"

Does that make sense to you why that bothers me? Please correct me if I'm wrong on the way I understand this.

Chad

LeeG
08-15-2014, 07:29 AM
If you want to frame Obama's view in terms of two statements out of six years of presidency I could see it reflecting a politicians flip flop. But it seems like a mighty small sample.

skuthorp
08-15-2014, 07:31 AM
"Does that make sense to you why that bothers me? Please correct me if I'm wrong on the way I understand this."
That's local politics Chad.

Tom Hunter
08-15-2014, 07:41 AM
It might have been more correct for Obama to first say “I pulled the troops out because the Iraqi govt asked us to leave.”

It might also be more correct for him to say “the conditions the Iraqi govt set for us to stay were unacceptable, so we had no choice in the matter, we had to leave.”

Personally I think that is splitting hairs.

There is a lot I don’t like about Obama’s presidency, but I think both the statement you are citing are pretty much correct and don’t really contradict each other.

cs
08-15-2014, 07:52 AM
I agree there is no easy course to follow and any decision can be and will be second guessed. And maybe we pulled out because there was no SOFA and I got that. But you know I read one article from the link posted above that indicated that the President was interested in perusing a SOFA with Iraq, that he didn't want any troops over there and this played a large part in no SOFA being established.

And Lee I'm not sure this is such a small sample. Obama ran in 2012 on getting the troops out. After they were out he bragged about getting them out. Now that things are a bit more fragile over there he says not my decision. And it is more than just this. For example with ObamaCare where he made claims prior to and these claims were challenged and he said "get your facts straight" but then in the end the challenges proved correct. I'm starting to see a trend here.

Just so you know the first go around I voted for him, the second go around did not. I voted for change the first time, didn't see the change so I voted the other way next time.

Chad

cs
08-15-2014, 08:02 AM
It might have been more correct for Obama to first say “I pulled the troops out because the Iraqi govt asked us to leave.”

It might also be more correct for him to say “the conditions the Iraqi govt set for us to stay were unacceptable, so we had no choice in the matter, we had to leave.”

Personally I think that is splitting hairs.

There is a lot I don’t like about Obama’s presidency, but I think both the statement you are citing are pretty much correct and don’t really contradict each other.


I'm not sure this is splitting hairs. If he would have said what you said he should have said instead of what he did say I would be okay with that. It is a matter of character and integrity. If you are going to take responsibility when things are going good but then blame others when it goes bad, that is a sign of poor character, at least in my book.

This is why I would never make it in politics. Sure I've done a lot of bad things in my life but I don't hide from them. I may not put them out on display but I do take responsibility for my actions. Right or wrong when Nixon was found out he stepped aside. Whether he was forced out or did it on his own, he stood up and took responsibility and stepped aside.

Shouldn't we expect our leaders to shoulder the responsibilities of their job and not blame others and just "soldier" on and get the job done to the best of their ability? Shouldn't we expect them to act like adults and do the best they can and quit blaming others?

Chad

cs
08-15-2014, 08:28 AM
I understand about campaign promises and how they can and do get broken. We all remember "no new taxes". My beef is the not taking responsibility. When I was a kid I was raised to accept the things I did, the mistakes I made. I owned up to them and took my punishment. I was taught not to blame others for my mistakes.

Basically this is what I ask of others. If I expect this from others around me it only makes sense that I would expect this from the leader of the most powerful nation in the world.

Chad

Bubba L.
08-15-2014, 08:32 AM
This is one of those situations that can be looked at from different perspectives that may not necessarily be mutually exclusive. Did they kick us out by not agreeing with our terms, or, did we leave because we didn't like their terms? Sometimes it's better to stress one view over the other. Is it right or wrong to change the perspective that you stress? Well, this is where the arguing will start.

Gene

John Smith
08-15-2014, 08:36 AM
As I perused these posts, I noticed something missing, unless I missed it. The leaving of Iraq was negotiated by Bush. Obama pulled out on that timetable, and any efforts that might have led to some of our troops staying were nixed by the Iraqi government.

All that said, FWIW, I have always been of the opinion that we would need to leave Iraq and Afghanistan eventually, and when we leave either won't change what happens after we've left.

As to the OP author, I would suggest that there is nothing equitable about today's information. The right has a record of making up facts. Fox, a few years ago, supported a Tea Party rally. When they covered the actual rally, they showed video. The video was from a much larger rally from over ten years before. They got caught because a building built ten years ago wasn't in their video. They did the same thing a second time and got caught because the trees showed the video shown was not timely. I forget whether they were too green or too not green, but the season was wrong.

Covering the withdrawal from Iraq, I don't think you'll find any coverage from Fox et al that reminds us, or admits, that the timetable for leaving had been set in place by Bush. Obama merely adhered to it, and Maliki would not accept any changes.

cs
08-15-2014, 08:40 AM
Here is the heart of what bugs me. Of course this is quoted from Rush, but from what I've read across the web at other sites and what has been talked about here, this cuts to the heart of the matter for me.


"Obama: Pulling All Troops Out of Iraq was Not My Decision." (snorts) He got elected promising to do it; he got reelected affirming that he did it. He has sought credit for this every which way but Sunday, and now all of a sudden it's Bush's problem, and he also says, well, he couldn't get the Iraqis to guarantee security for American troops.


ROMNEY: You and I agreed, I believe, that there should have been a Status of Forces Agreement.OBAMA: That's not true!
ROMNEY: Oh, you didn't? You didn't want a Status of Forces Agreement?
OBAMA: No. What I -- what I would not have done is left 10,000 troops in Iraq that would tie us down!

The last indicates that he wasn't interested in a SOFA and if he wasn't interested I wonder how much effort was put into it?

So he promised to pull the troops out, he bragged about pulling the troops out, he wasn't interested in a SOFA that would keep troops there, and now that there is a potential need for troops there, he says not my fault.

Yeah that scenario bugs the hell out of me.

Chad

Flying Orca
08-15-2014, 08:54 AM
The talking heads...

Welcome back, Norman!

LeeG
08-15-2014, 08:54 AM
Difference of opinion Chad, there are probably hundreds of statements Obama has made with regards to the mission in Iraq and picking these two appears to me to be seeking inconsistency in Obama when in the larger picture the mission was absolutely conflicted.

Saying that Iraqi leadership wanted US forces out is not blaming anyone, it's fact.

Bubba L.
08-15-2014, 08:59 AM
As I perused these posts, I noticed something missing, unless I missed it. The leaving of Iraq was negotiated by Bush. Obama pulled out on that timetable, and any efforts that might have led to some of our troops staying were nixed by the Iraqi government.

All that said, FWIW, I have always been of the opinion that we would need to leave Iraq and Afghanistan eventually, and when we leave either won't change what happens after we've left.

As to the OP author, I would suggest that there is nothing equitable about today's information. The right has a record of making up facts. Fox, a few years ago, supported a Tea Party rally. When they covered the actual rally, they showed video. The video was from a much larger rally from over ten years before. They got caught because a building built ten years ago wasn't in their video. They did the same thing a second time and got caught because the trees showed the video shown was not timely. I forget whether they were too green or too not green, but the season was wrong.

Covering the withdrawal from Iraq, I don't think you'll find any coverage from Fox et al that reminds us, or admits, that the timetable for leaving had been set in place by Bush. Obama merely adhered to it, and Maliki would not accept any changes.

Yep. Because we wouldn't hold our troops to the standards of their law.

Gene

LeeG
08-15-2014, 09:00 AM
I understand about campaign promises and how they can and do get broken. We all remember "no new taxes". My beef is the not taking responsibility. When I was a kid I was raised to accept the things I did, the mistakes I made. I owned up to them and took my punishment. I was taught not to blame others for my mistakes.

Basically this is what I ask of others. If I expect this from others around me it only makes sense that I would expect this from the leader of the most powerful nation in the world.

Chad


Chad, there is no one that will make the USA "own up". You seem to be implying that withdrawing from Iraq was a mistake and that Obama isn't owning up to it.

Bubba L.
08-15-2014, 09:00 AM
Norm! :)

Gene

cs
08-15-2014, 09:10 AM
Not saying pulling out was right or wrong, what I am saying is if you are going to take credit for the good you have to take credit for the bad. In one breath saying I did this and then saying it wasn't my fault.

http://youtu.be/kr9ywEFRQkQ


http://youtu.be/VX1gdpEFAzg

He said he would end the war, he said he would bring the troops home, he continued to claim that he ended the war. He then said it wasn't my fault.

You can't have it both ways. That is what I'm saying. Decision made right or wrong is not the question here.


Chad

John Smith
08-15-2014, 09:21 AM
There are two distinct things here, and you compare apples to oranges. Yes, he ended the war, as he promised, and on Bush's timetable. The idea was to elect a leader in Iraq, and have a democracy. We did that.

Some of us predicted what would happen when we left. I was one. I also did not want us to stay, as, IMO, that would only delay what happened when we left, not change it. The problems in Iraq today were predictable, expected,and, IMO unavoidable. If we had stayed 10 more years, this would be happing in 2024.

The idea was putting a democratically elected leader in Iraq would stabilize the middle east. It was a bad idea.

Obama has some decisions to make. Congress is supposed to be part of that process, but they are totally ducking their responsibility. Obama may make good decisions or he may make bad decisions, but everything that happens in Iraq is part of a chain of events that began when Bush started the war.

For the record, I am not an Obamamaniac. I accept he ran on increasing the effort in Afghanistan, and I don't think that was wise. I also think there will be major problems there when we leave, and when we leave won't matter.

Keith Wilson
08-15-2014, 09:24 AM
. . . is it true the President Obama is claiming that the troop withdrawal from Iraq was not his decision?I looked into it a little, and as far as I can tell the answer is no, not really. Of course, I haven't put that much time into it, and I obviously haven't looked at everything he's said - but as far as I can tell, what he's said has been accurate - that the majority of the withdrawal was the US's decision, but that at the very end there was some dispute over exactly how many troops would stay (a few, or a few more), and the Iraqis imposed some conditions that weren't acceptable to us.

Of course, on a complex subject, it's easy enough to take remarks out of context, edit a video to make it seem like he's saying something he isn't, or quote only one half of 'on one hand, on the other hand'. You know how politics works. But no, I don't think he's doing that.

Hey, Norm, welcome back!

cs
08-15-2014, 09:27 AM
I'm not challenging who or how the war ended in Iraq, nor I'm a debating the merits of whether we should have left troops there. Mine is a question of taking responsibilities for one's actions. How can you claim to have ended the war, to have brought the troops home and then when things don't work out say "it was my fault?"

In this video he claims that as promised he ended the war and he will bring the troops home. In the other videos he is bragging about how he did it. Why now is he saying it is not my fault?

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/obama-ends-iraq-war

Chad

LeeG
08-15-2014, 09:28 AM
This is goofy

changeng
08-15-2014, 09:30 AM
Welcome back, Norman!

Yay

changeng
08-15-2014, 09:31 AM
Possibly he's meaning he is but the servant of the people...what a refreshing thought

Keith Wilson
08-15-2014, 09:31 AM
Why now is he saying it is not my fault?I don't think he's doing that. The viral clips I found appear to be out of context, distorting what he's actually saying, half of 'on one hand, on the other hand' quotes.

cs
08-15-2014, 09:36 AM
Explain how this is goofy. All I want to know is why is it acceptable to claim responsibility when all is good but then when it goes bad say it isn't my fault.

Unlike others I'm not extreme left or right, I give people a chance, I don't believe in black or white, right or wrong. I believe that we all make mistakes and we should learn from them and move on. I don't care to debit whether we should or could have ended the war. Or the reasons why were are there or should or should not be there.

Maybe that is what is wrong with the world. Too many people thinking it is okay to boast about doing something but then fail to take responsibility when that boast don't work out for the best. If you expect to be rewarded for an act then you must also pay the piper if that act has some pitfalls.

Chad

cs
08-15-2014, 09:54 AM
Norm I'm going to break this down into 3 simple facts. I don'think these are in dispute

1. Obama ran for election promising to end the war in Iraq and bring the troops home.
2. Obama ran for re-election saying that he ended the war in Iraq and he brought the troops home.
3. Obama makes the statement when asked if he should have left troops in Iraq, “This issue keeps on coming up as if this was my decision,”

This is where I have a bit of heartburn. Both 1 & 2 support each other but then 3 is a complete contradiction to 1 and 2. If 2 is true than 3 is false. If 3 is true than 2 is false. 2 says "I did it" 3 says "It wasn't my decision" If you are going to claim 1 and 2 than 3 should be something other than "it wasn't me"

Chad

cs
08-15-2014, 10:16 AM
Norm I have to disagree with your evaluation of 1 and 2. Watch the video below and in the first 2 minutes Obama says "all" troops. He does not differentiate between combat and support troops. He says all troops, when the last American Soldier crosses the border and remove all of our troops.

So yes I read his remarks both 1 and 2 as ALL troops.


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/obama-ends-iraq-war/

Chad

cs
08-15-2014, 10:25 AM
Whether or not "they" are referring to 10,000 soldiers or 10 soldiers is besides the point. I've not been spun by the right nor the left. I've been spun by my upbringing where we were taught to take responsibility.

Based on every article I've read, every video I've seen, every post I've read here, based on all the facts (and fiction) that I have been able to round up, I see a person who is saying in public that it is "not his fault". This is a game we all played in 1st grade. I've moved beyond 1st grade and when I see a problem I don't try to blame others, I don't say it wasn't my fault. Instead I try to fix it. If I screw up I take the blame. If I do good I share the credit with those that help me. I don't cry and say it wasn't me. I don't stand up and say I saved the world. I put my freaking nose to the grindstone and I find a solution.

Chad

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 10:31 AM
I am glad U.S. troops are out of Iraq. I oppose putting U.S. troops back in Iraq. At some point Iraq must work out their own solution.

I don't much care about the details, although my understanding is Iraqi intransigence regarding SOFA terms led to the timing of the U.S. troop withdrawal.

My opinion is that Iraq will eventually be divided between Sunni Muslims, Shiite Muslims, and Kurds. Just as Joe Biden predicted lo so many years ago.

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 10:35 AM
While I am sympathetic to the proposition of "you break it, you own it," I question the wisdom and logic of any nation wedding itself to the foreign policy travesties of it's previous governments.

cs
08-15-2014, 10:37 AM
Tom I tend to agree with you. There has been fighting the middle east since the beginning of time and what we do there will have little to no impact on that. I wish I knew the answer, I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all love each other, but alas that is beyond me. I think that we do need to be a shining light, a beacon of hope and that we need to help those that need help, but really I don't know the answer there.

What I do know and what this post was about is character. I strongly feel that the actions and words define who and what we are, not only as individuals but as a nation. When the leader of our nation does not take responsibility for his actions in both times of good and times of bad, I feel that this reflects poorly on us as a nation and as individuals.

Chad

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 10:39 AM
This is where I would turn extremely partisan if the thread originator were anyone else.

George Jung
08-15-2014, 10:40 AM
Chad, you appear to be looking 'real hard' for a reason to criticize President Obama; it doesn't exist. But it is a 'tell' on your politics.

cs
08-15-2014, 10:44 AM
Norm I think you are missing my point. My point is all about character. He claimed responsibility for removing ALL troops and then when questioned about it later he said it wasn't my decision.

Instead of saying "It wasn't me" maybe he should have said "In retrospect maybe we should have left a small force to help with security and training but circumstance did not permit this. Now we need to deal with the issues on hand and try to move forward and help the Iraqi people."

A statement like that would have made all the difference in the world to me. I can respect that. I can't respect finger pointing.

Chad

LeeG
08-15-2014, 10:47 AM
Explain how this is goofy. All I want to know is why is it acceptable to claim responsibility when all is good but then when it goes bad say it isn't my fault.

Unlike others I'm not extreme left or right, I give people a chance, I don't believe in black or white, right or wrong. I believe that we all make mistakes and we should learn from them and move on. I don't care to debit whether we should or could have ended the war. Or the reasons why were are there or should or should not be there.

Maybe that is what is wrong with the world. Too many people thinking it is okay to boast about doing something but then fail to take responsibility when that boast don't work out for the best. If you expect to be rewarded for an act then you must also pay the piper if that act has some pitfalls.

Chad

Your claiming that a sentence in a campaign speech defines the parameters in withdrawal is your first error. That error is endemic in our leaders because they unconsciously uphold the notion events in the world can be defined by our actions as opposed to the reality on the ground. They are preaching to the choir, Americans.
You appear to be focusing on US troops as some kind of controlling force in the region, they aren't.


Btw all wasn't good in 2011, that is a convenient illusion

Keith Wilson
08-15-2014, 10:50 AM
To clarify: The withdrawal of the vast majority of US troops from Iraq, ending the occupation of the country and the Iraq war, was started under president Bush, completed under president Obama. This was indeed a US decision; Nobody disputes this. This is one of the things Obama campaigned on, and that he has justly taken credit for.

At the very end of the US withdrawal, there was a dispute with the Iraqis about a small number of troops remaining and their exact status. The withdrawal of this final small contingent of troops was at the request of the Iraqi government. This is what Obama is talking about in the video clip, in which he's being 100% accurate. It is not what he campaigned on, nor what he has claimed credit for.

While it's certainly common enough for politicians to take credit when things go well, and try and weasel out of blame when things go badly, that is not what Obama is doing in this case.

cs
08-15-2014, 10:56 AM
Lee I have never said that US troops are a controlling force in the region, and this has nothing to do with whether or not right or wrong troops are deployed over there. This is all about taking credit for something and then blaming someone else when circumstances change.

This is why I will never be in politics. I don't like to mislead others, I don't like to speak half truths. If I screw up I say so and believe me I have screwed up in my life.

I really just want a leader who is strong, who has my trust, a leader who accepts his faults, a leader who don't blame others, a leader I can be proud of.

BTW my politics are all across the board. In the early 80's I supported Carter. I then supported Reagan. I voted for Bush the first, I voted for Ross and I voted for Obama. I dearly want a leader that I can be proud of, a leader that will truly make a difference.

Chad

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 10:58 AM
Keith Wilson nailed it:


At the very end of the US withdrawal, there was a dispute with the Iraqis about a small number of troops remaining and their exact status. The withdrawal of this final small contingent of troops was at the request of the Iraqi government. This is what Obama is talking about in the video clip, in which he's being 100% accurate. It is not what he campaigned on, nor what he has claimed credit for.

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 11:01 AM
To clarify: The withdrawal of the vast majority of US troops from Iraq, ending the occupation of the country and the Iraq war, was started under president Bush, completed under president Obama. This was indeed a US decision; Nobody disputes this. This is one of the things Obama campaigned on, and that he has justly taken credit for.
And Dick Cheney has subsequently indicated that he would have reneged had he still been in charge.

What would Mitt Romney have done?

LeeG
08-15-2014, 11:14 AM
Lee I have never said that US troops are a controlling force in the region, and this has nothing to do with whether or not right or wrong troops are deployed over there. This is all about taking credit for something and then blaming someone else when circumstances change.

This is why I will never be in politics. I don't like to mislead others, I don't like to speak half truths. If I screw up I say so and believe me I have screwed up in my life.

I really just want a leader who is strong, who has my trust, a leader who accepts his faults, a leader who don't blame others, a leader I can be proud of.

BTW my politics are all across the board. In the early 80's I supported Carter. I then supported Reagan. I voted for Bush the first, I voted for Ross and I voted for Obama. I dearly want a leader that I can be proud of, a leader that will truly make a difference.

Chad

Ok. So Obama's screwup is that he said he's "bringing/brought the troops home" in campaign speeches and that he's also saying the timetable for withdrawal was set by GW and the failure of SOFA was Iraqs doing.

This is like the reasoning people use to say Iraq had WMD by referring to politicians speeches instead of actual analysis of intel.

Your characterization that "circumstances changed" is lacking in meaning as circumstances were in flux, the disenfranchised Sunni were not quietly retired, the jihadists throughout the region were not knitting rugs. Your desire to confine your argument to campaign speeches and not ground reality kind of points to your dilemma.

LeeG
08-15-2014, 11:17 AM
And Dick Cheney has subsequently indicated that he would have reneged had he still been in charge.

What would Mitt Romney have done?

Or McCain and Lieberman with all of Cheney's neocons in tow?

Phillip Allen
08-15-2014, 11:23 AM
Well, Chad, it seems the comentary (all of it) comes from one side of our political spectrum... you don't want a fight so I won't respond to any of the 'other' posts...

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 11:26 AM
Well, Chad, it seems the comentary (all of it) comes from one side of our political spectrum... you don't want a fight so I won't respond to any of the 'other' posts...
Facts tend to have a liberal bias. Opinion, not so much.

LeeG
08-15-2014, 11:29 AM
Well, Chad, it seems the comentary (all of it) comes from one side of our political spectrum... you don't want a fight so I won't respond to any of the 'other' posts...

Your commentary on others commentary isn't fighting but it isn't addressing Chads dilemma.

cs
08-15-2014, 11:41 AM
So you then voted for the paragon of character who was draft deferred as a Mormon missionary in the second most catholic country on the planet while 55,000 of the 47 percent got killed? Still taking the high road here but you have a really odd concept of character.


Because I felt he was the best choice of the choices we had and he was our best chance for the future.

Chad

cs
08-15-2014, 11:45 AM
Keith does cut to the heart of matter better than others. Clarify a few things for me though.

If the withdrawal of troops was initiated under Bush and completed under Obama, how can Obama take credit for it?

When asked if he had second thoughts about pulling all ground troops out of Iraq why instead of claiming it wasn’t his fault, why did he not explain the difference between ground troops and a small contingency of advisors? Surely he knew what was meant by the question. So why not say what you mean and not lay blame elsewhere?

Norm, the way I see it he is not taking responsibility for the exact same thing he took credit for, pulling ALL troops out of Iraq.

Also Character is not just actions but it also words. Keep in mind the perception is reality. Right or wrong it is what it is. So if we know that perception is reality maybe we should shape our words and actions so other perceive in a better light. In other words if you know how you say something shapes how others perceive you than put some thought in how you present your facts. Don’t mislead, don’t point the fingers, be up front and honest in what you mean. I watched the clip plus several others and I read the text. If the reporter asking him meant one thing then why did Obama go on the defensive and start blaming others instead of defining what he meant?

Don’t get me wrong I so want to believe in Obama. I want our president to be somebody I can be proud of. Somehow I feel that he is skirting the issue, instead of keeping me informed he is dancing around trying to fool us all with smoke and mirrors, the same as almost every other politician (left or right). I voted for a change, I wanted to see a change in the way our government is ran, a change in politics. I wanted a leader I could be proud of, one that I could trust, one the world could trust. A leader that stood his ground, didn’t mince words, didn’t skirt around the issues. A leader that would take the word by the horns and look it straight in the eye and say “Give me your best shot”.

Instead I feel like we got a leader that promised change only to not change. A leader who minces words. A leader who practices deception, a leader who has not won my trust. I want a leader I can believe in, a Teddy Roosevelt, a Abraham Lincoln or a John Kennedy.

I feel betrayed by our leaders and the mincing of words both left and right have left a bad taste in my mouth. I really believe in our country and our Constitution and every year and every month and every day I feel that the politicians are leading us down a deep dark path. I see post every day all across the internet from different organizations that want to take America back and that scares me.

I want a leader I can believe in.

Chad

Phillip Allen
08-15-2014, 11:58 AM
Keith does cut to the heart of matter better than others. Clarify a few things for me though.

If the withdrawal of troops was initiated under Bush and completed under Obama, how can Obama take credit for it?

When asked if he had second thoughts about pulling all ground troops out of Iraq why instead of claiming it wasn’t his fault, why did he not explain the difference between ground troops and a small contingency of advisors? Surely he knew what was meant by the question. So why not say what you mean and not lay blame elsewhere?

Norm, the way I see it he is not taking responsibility for the exact same thing he took credit for, pulling ALL troops out of Iraq.

Also Character is not just actions but it also words. Keep in mind the perception is reality. Right or wrong it is what it is. So if we know that perception is reality maybe we should shape our words and actions so other perceive in a better light. In other words if you know how you say something shapes how others perceive you than put some thought in how you present your facts. Don’t mislead, don’t point the fingers, be up front and honest in what you mean. I watched the clip plus several others and I read the text. If the reporter asking him meant one thing then why did Obama go on the defensive and start blaming others instead of defining what he meant?

Don’t get me wrong I so want to believe in Obama. I want our president to be somebody I can be proud of. Somehow I feel that he is skirting the issue, instead of keeping me informed he is dancing around trying to fool us all with smoke and mirrors, the same as almost every other politician (left or right). I voted for a change, I wanted to see a change in the way our government is ran, a change in politics. I wanted a leader I could be proud of, one that I could trust, one the world could trust. A leader that stood his ground, didn’t mince words, didn’t skirt around the issues. A leader that would take the word by the horns and look it straight in the eye and say “Give me your best shot”.

Instead I feel like we got a leader that promised change only to not change. A leader who minces words. A leader who practices deception, a leader who has not won my trust. I want a leader I can believe in, a Teddy Roosevelt, a Abraham Lincoln or a John Kennedy.

I feel betrayed by our leaders and the mincing of words both left and right have left a bad taste in my mouth. I really believe in our country and our Constitution and every year and every month and every day I feel that the politicians are leading us down a deep dark path. I see post every day all across the internet from different organizations that want to take America back and that scares me.

I want a leader I can believe in.

Chad


I pointed out that Obama was nothing more than a Chicago politician and got savaged for it by many of the other posters to this thread... our president learned his politics at the feet of the Daileys and Roddams. (don’t know the spelling of the names but that shouldn’t change the value of the comment).

The upshot of my observation is literally ‘character’ as you state your interest to be.

I try to look closely at character though I can make mistakes as well as any other here

LeeG
08-15-2014, 11:59 AM
I'm afraid Chad that the ideal of leadership and duty you experienced in the military doesn't apply to civilian life.

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 12:00 PM
The upshot of my observation is literally ‘character’ as you state your interest to be.

I try to look closely at character though I can make mistakes as well as any other here
Name the U.S. Presidents who you believe exhibited excellent character. I, for one, would be interested in your list.

Keith Wilson
08-15-2014, 12:01 PM
If the withdrawal of troops was initiated under Bush and completed under Obama, how can Obama take credit for it?It happened on his watch, he completed it. He could have done otherwise. It was his decision.


. . . why did he not explain the difference between ground troops and a small contingency of advisers?I have no idea. A mistake? He wanted to give a short answer? Needed to get to his next appointment? Keep it simple? Brain fart? Bad day? He was distracted? I know if somebody followed me around with a mike for three days, by careful selection of my own words and without lying in the slightest, they could make me sound like the biggest idiot that ever walked the planet.

That's why I never, ever rely on one stupid statement by anyone, of whatever party or ideology, to make a judgement. As far as I'm able, I look at the totality of what they say and do.

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 12:02 PM
It happened on his watch, he completed it. He could have done otherwise. It was his decision.
CORRECT!

Which is why I have pointed out that Dick Cheney claims he would have reneged.

cs
08-15-2014, 12:03 PM
And that is what I tried to do Keith. I searched the internet and read different views and articles and nothing I read satisfied my need to know the truth, and thus I came here as a last resort.

Chad

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 12:05 PM
Let us take this thread as evidence over-turning the lie that "there is not a dime's worth of difference between the two political parties."

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 12:52 PM
I want a POTUS who is a leader as well, Chad. And that is my main criticism of Obama.

Obama appears to operate under the assumption that his political opponents are reasonable people who are, in the end, concerned primarily with the greater good. That they are people who will compromise in the interest of the greater good rather than dig in their heels in the interest of their ideological principles.

I view him as a pragmatist attempting to deal with ideologues. That amounts to a FAIL in 21st century American national politics. He is stymied.

cs
08-15-2014, 12:57 PM
Make up your mind, Chad... you're castigating him for taking credit for removing the troops, and at the same time, castigating him for pulling out the troops. You seem to want it both ways. If he is obligated to take the responsibility for taking out the troops, then why doesn't he get the credit for doing THE SAME DAMN THING?


You obviously missed the entire point I was making. I'm not castigating him for taking credit for removing the troops or for pulling out the troops. My whole point was in one breath he took credit for pulling the troops out and in the next breath he said it wasn't his fault the troops were pulled out. Jeez, pay attention here. I wanted clarification on what is perceived as the duplicity of his two stances on troop withdrawals.


Yes I pretty much have the same view of almost every politician out there. When thing get "political" in the real world you quickly learn that you can't trust the person that is getting political. That is why I voted for Obama the first time, yes I drank the Kool-aid and I thought I was voting for a change.

My views on presidential leadership may be idealistic and nobody will ever fit the mold perfectly I'm sure, but that don't mean we can't strive for that perfection. The current crop of politicians seem to me to be the bottom of the barrel.

And yes I think that maybe Teddy Roosevelt might come closer to fitting my ideal than most others.

Chad

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 01:00 PM
I admire the other Roosevelt.

cs
08-15-2014, 01:10 PM
That would be sensible and reasonable... if he were talking about the same damn thing. Here's a clue:

HE WASN'T.



You might want to read up a little on Teddy Roosevelt... especially what he did regarding a unit of black soldiers. You might not want to hold him up as a shining example, afterwards.


Norm I'm trying to be nice here but yet you seem to insist on being a prick. Please note the title of my thread was to clarify. I posted here in an attempt to clarify what I perceived was being said. I've never once raised my voice or gotten confrontational. I've asked the question and I've expressed how I perceived what I had heard and read. I wanted clarification not confrontation. I've tried to express what I was looking for and you keep veering off course and I keep trying to bring it back on course because I really want to understand what was going on.

And BTW don't you ever tell me to get a clue like that again. You can mark this down in your book, but don't ever come at me with a holier than thou condescending attitude. I don't take kindly to that in real life and I damn sure ain't going to take here either. Savvy?

Chad

Canoeyawl
08-15-2014, 01:18 PM
Norm I'm trying to be nice here but yet you seem to insist on being a prick. Please note the title of my thread was to clarify... You can mark this down in your book, but don't ever come at me with a holier than thou condescending attitude. I don't take kindly to that in real life and I damn sure ain't going to take here either. Savvy?

Chad

Whoa... You are asking for clarification of some rubbish from Rush? And you are upset with Norm?
(Rushbbish?)

cs
08-15-2014, 01:36 PM
That is why I asked for clarification here. The statement seemed to be completely irrational and I really wanted to find the context of what was being said and talked about. I wasn't finding the answers on the web. Because I put little faith in left or right wing publications I couldn't find a true source to help me understand what was being left out or assumed.

If those assumptions and statements had been true that would be a serious character flaw imho. That is why I wanted to clarify. I started the initial post coming from how the statement was perceived and if you notice in one post I said that perception is reality.

and I was not asking for clarification on a "Rush" post. This is spread all over the internet all the way from the Washington Post to yes even Rush. I always like to verify before I make accusations or assumptions.

To me the response all over the web is pretty extreme and pretty much out there. I was finding it hard to believe that anyone could take such polar opposite stances on the same issue and I wanted to find out what the in between stuff was.

No apologies necessary. I have enough other crap going on and I tend to get rather sensitive whenever I feel some one is being a bit condescending and I really don't take well to that.

Chad

Tom Montgomery
08-15-2014, 01:39 PM
You are OK in my book, Chad. Even if we disagree at times.

Glen Longino
08-15-2014, 02:09 PM
Goshamighty I'm glad this got settled satisfactorily without any real damage.
It was touch and go for awhile but I congratulate all you participants.
Welcome back, Norman.
This thread would have turned out worse without your input.
I admit it scared the living shyte out of me when Chad got loud and testy there for a minute...so unlike him, but understandable.:)

John Smith
08-15-2014, 06:02 PM
I'm not challenging who or how the war ended in Iraq, nor I'm a debating the merits of whether we should have left troops there. Mine is a question of taking responsibilities for one's actions. How can you claim to have ended the war, to have brought the troops home and then when things don't work out say "it was my fault?"

In this video he claims that as promised he ended the war and he will bring the troops home. In the other videos he is bragging about how he did it. Why now is he saying it is not my fault?

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/obama-ends-iraq-war

Chad

You seem to forget Iraq is a sovereign nation and it had some say as to the conditions under which we left troops.

Anyone who wanted to keep troops there want to leave them under Iraq's terms? Anyone want to tell us how long they would have left how many troops?

Waddie
08-15-2014, 06:44 PM
If it was his decision then he was correct to take the credit for it when it looked good; but he should also now take the blame when it looks bad.

If it wasn't his decision then he shouldn't have taken credit for it when it looked good, and shouldn't be faulted for it now when it looks bad.

But cs is correct; you can't have it both ways. That's intellectually dishonest.

regards,
Waddie

bobbys
08-15-2014, 06:49 PM
Malaki made a few bad choices and now a lot of his countrymen will die for them..

but remember you agree with his choices.

BrianW
08-15-2014, 06:58 PM
Actually, I have less trouble with President Obama's claims, than I do his supporters and his detractors. Both those groups use his words to make claims of success or failure to extremes of plausibility.

To some (including here) he's nearly perfect, and to some he's a failure. The truth is somewhere in the middle, and when it comes to foreign affairs, he's far from perfect. That according to his ex-Sec of State, who is not running against him next election cycle.

cs
08-15-2014, 07:45 PM
Could it be because I asked nicely? Or maybe because I've always treated people with respect and kindness? I don't know but I appreciate everyone taking the time to help me out.

Chad

Glen Longino
08-15-2014, 07:49 PM
..."Is there something I should know about Chad..."...

Yes!

LeeG
08-15-2014, 08:23 PM
If it was his decision then he was correct to take the credit for it when it looked good; but he should also now take the blame when it looks bad.

If it wasn't his decision then he shouldn't have taken credit for it when it looked good, and shouldn't be faulted for it now when it looks bad.

But cs is correct; you can't have it both ways. That's intellectually dishonest.

regards,
Waddie

It's intellectually dishonest to make false equivalence. " looking" isn't the same as " being".

Waddie
08-15-2014, 09:13 PM
It's intellectually dishonest to make false equivalence. " looking" isn't the same as " being".

It doesn't need to be. If he takes the credit for pulling the troops out, he should shoulder the blame when pulling them out proves to be a bad idea.

If he had originally said he didn't think it was a good idea to pull out the troops so soon, then he can't be blamed when things go south as a result.

He can't have it both ways, it's as simple as that, despite your attempt at semantics.

regards,
Waddie

Bubba L.
08-15-2014, 09:16 PM
Why is everyone making nice with Chad when he is being wilfully ignorant by ignoring all the very good and clear explanations? He seems to be yanking your chains and you guys are lapping it up? He's like a RodB with a fake veneer of humble.

Gene

cs
08-15-2014, 09:30 PM
It is like this. I asked a question for a geniune interest in finding the answer. I listen with geniune respect to each and every post on this and then use the information gathered from all sources to form my own opinion all without any name calling. Okay there for a minute I almost got upset at Norm but we are all good now.

Now you may think this is the good ol' boy network and it may be. I've been arou d here for a ling time and with over 20k post. I started here with a question a long time ago about how to build a mast. Since that time I've built 2 sailboats and 4 canoes and even started the design of another sailboat. I treat people with the same respect I expect to recieve and they return that respect. I've broken bread, drank beer went sailing and went camping with quite a few here. I've visited many and welcome many into my home.

In other words my time on this forum has not been spent bashing others, that is unless your name is Joe and you are from Cold Spring and like Apples. ;) LOL

I sure do miss my friendly joust with Joe.

Chad

LeeG
08-15-2014, 10:48 PM
It doesn't need to be. If he takes the credit for pulling the troops out, he should shoulder the blame when pulling them out proves to be a bad idea.

If he had originally said he didn't think it was a good idea to pull out the troops so soon, then he can't be blamed when things go south as a result.

He can't have it both ways, it's as simple as that, despite your attempt at semantics.

regards,
Waddie

the force required to transform Iraq into that wonderfully western democratic state is way beyond what we are capable of implementing let alone sustaining. The "bad idea" was creating a power vacuum that we were not capable or entitled to fill. The idea that everything was hunky dory as long as 150,000 US troops hung around is BS.
Your simplistic formula that things "went South" when the US withdrew is narrative masturbation.

100,000's Iraqi's killed, renewed motivation for Salafi jihadists fighting a foreign force. millions displaced, and you want to say things "went South" when the newly liberated and sovereign nation of Iraq said no more troops?

LeeG
08-15-2014, 10:50 PM
Actually, I have less trouble with President Obama's claims, than I do his supporters and his detractors. Both those groups use his words to make claims of success or failure to extremes of plausibility.

To some (including here) he's nearly perfect, and to some he's a failure. The truth is somewhere in the middle, and when it comes to foreign affairs, he's far from perfect. That according to his ex-Sec of State, who is not running against him next election cycle.

Oh no, he's the Messiah, haven't you heard..RWW tell me so.

LeeG
08-15-2014, 10:52 PM
.

but remember you agree with his choices.

You mean when we implemented the Salvadoran Option?

Waddie
08-16-2014, 01:42 AM
BS, the force required to transform Iraq into that wonderfully western democratic state is way beyond what we are capable of implementing let alone sustaining. The "bad idea" was creating a power vacuum that we were not capable or entitled to fill. The idea that everything was hunky dory as long as 150,000 US troops hung around is BS.
Your simplistic formula that things "went South" when the US withdrew is narrative masturbation.

100,000's Iraqi's killed, renewed motivation for Salafi jihadists fighting a foreign force. millions displaced, and you want to say things "went South" when the newly liberated and sovereign nation of Iraq said no more troops?

BS

You're absolutely correct in your analysis, but that isn't the topic. The question is if Obama took the credit for removing the troops should he also shoulder some blame when the lack of troops throws the country into chaos? Now he says it wasn't his idea to remove the troops; that's being disingenuous.

Obviously, he is trying to have it both ways.

He would have been better off to say withdrawing the troops was an Iraqi idea which he opposed because the Iraqi's were not yet prepared to stand alone, and he favored keeping most of the troops there despite the Bush timetable. He would have looked like a genius. But now he just looks like a politician.

If, as you say, and I agree, that no amount of American force would ever stabilize Iraq, then he should have said that even though the consequences might be dire for the Iraqi's, he was keeping his campaign pledge and withdrawing the troops anyway.

regards,
Waddie

BrianW
08-16-2014, 03:49 AM
In the minds of righties every where, she is - in that she has to distance herself from what many fear most, a strong nig.. Clang! er, colored fellow, and all that he did & attempted.

I basically consider myself a "righty". I don't fall into your generalization. I'm not alone.

I won't ask you to change your opinions... just your negative projections on a group of individuals.

LeeG
08-16-2014, 04:28 AM
You're absolutely correct in your analysis, but that isn't the topic. The question is if Obama took the credit for removing the troops should he also shoulder some blame when the lack of troops throws the country into chaos? Now he says it wasn't his idea to remove the troops; that's being disingenuous.

Obviously, he is trying to have it both ways.

He would have been better off to say withdrawing the troops was an Iraqi idea which he opposed because the Iraqi's were not yet prepared to stand alone, and he favored keeping most of the troops there despite the Bush timetable. He would have looked like a genius. But now he just looks like a politician.

If, as you say, and I agree, that no amount of American force would ever stabilize Iraq, then he should have said that even though the consequences might be dire for the Iraqi's, he was keeping his campaign pledge and withdrawing the troops anyway.

regards,
Waddie

Reality isn't the topic

skuthorp
08-16-2014, 04:45 AM
Chad you are asking for a rainbow. The honest at all times 'leader' you are looking for doesn't exist in politics because he or she couldn't. They'd never get to first base in the selection process, and anyway the last place for an honest man is today's politics. Obama is about as good as you are ever going to get.
And with today's social media keeping a permanent record of all youthful indiscretions and FB posts etc., it will be very hard to find a candidate who the media can't find something to denigrate him for, unless he's a dummy who never managed to get on the social media train and never sent a silly post…………… hang on………….. that was GW wasn't it…………...

George Jung
08-16-2014, 08:47 AM
Ah well....

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10537329_10152602267871740_3900463836758716534_n.j pg

Bubba L.
08-16-2014, 09:19 AM
You're absolutely correct in your analysis, but that isn't the topic. The question is if Obama took the credit for removing the troops should he also shoulder some blame when the lack of troops throws the country into chaos? Now he says it wasn't his idea to remove the troops; that's being disingenuous.

regards,
Waddie

Pulling the troops out didn't plunge the country into chaos. Invading it and denying all former government employees the ability to hold any kind of job as well as total mismanagement of all aspects of the occupation by the Bush administration plunged it into chaos. Blaming anything going on in Iraq on Obama is like blaming him for not being able to make a silk purse with a sows ear. It is totally unreasonable.

Obama has made plenty of real mistakes, he is after all human, but insisting on blaming him for things that are out of his control or things that are completely fabricated just destroys any credibility on the part of his detractors.

Gene

John Smith
08-16-2014, 09:43 AM
Actually, I have less trouble with President Obama's claims, than I do his supporters and his detractors. Both those groups use his words to make claims of success or failure to extremes of plausibility.

To some (including here) he's nearly perfect, and to some he's a failure. The truth is somewhere in the middle, and when it comes to foreign affairs, he's far from perfect. That according to his ex-Sec of State, who is not running against him next election cycle.

Does this mean you think Hillary will be more perfect? Which president had a perfect foreign policy?

John Smith
08-16-2014, 09:48 AM
It doesn't need to be. If he takes the credit for pulling the troops out, he should shoulder the blame when pulling them out proves to be a bad idea.

If he had originally said he didn't think it was a good idea to pull out the troops so soon, then he can't be blamed when things go south as a result.

He can't have it both ways, it's as simple as that, despite your attempt at semantics.

regards,
Waddie

I feel this is a bit narrow minded. He campaigned on pulling troops out. As it turned out, a timetable for so doing had been negotiated by Bush. Obama held to it.

What you cannot have both ways is Iraq being a sovereign nation with a democratically elected leader and not take THEIR rules for staying seriously. They wanted us out. They set conditions for us leaving troops that were not acceptable.

Obama is not responsible for what is now happening in Iraq. Maliki may be. Bush set the whole thing in motion.

Obama had two choices: leave or stay. Staying was not his unilateral decision to make.

Canoeyawl
08-16-2014, 09:55 AM
Pulling the troops out didn't plunge the country into chaos. Invading it and denying all former government employees the ability to hold any kind of job as well as total mismanagement of all aspects of the occupation by the Bush administration plunged it into chaos.

Gene

This...

John Smith
08-16-2014, 09:57 AM
Russert: Will you pledge that by January 2013, the end of your first term more than five years from now, there will be no U.S. troops in Iraq?
Obama: I think it’s hard to project four years from now, and I think it would be irresponsible. We don’t know what contingency will be out there. What I can promise is that if there are still troops in Iraq when I take office [and] if there’s no timetable [for withdrawal], then I will drastically reduce our presence there to the mission of protecting our embassy, protecting our civilians and making sure that we’re carrying out counterterrorism activities there.

cs
08-16-2014, 11:43 AM
A needless war that probably killed half million and you spend this much time on who took credit for getting out. The original post neglected to address why the search for character just happened to start with Obama and reads like it came out of the third grade. Well done.

I'm begining to think you may be either a FI or just an instigator. I've tried to reply to you in the open forum and I've even sent you a pm but yet you still keep on keeping on. The OP is about asking for clarification on what he said and how it releated to what he had said before. It was to help me determine if he was dodging his responsibilities that he was percieved as taking responsibility for earlier. Nothing more and nothing less.

Chad

ccmanuals
08-16-2014, 11:58 AM
I'm not sure this is splitting hairs. If he would have said what you said he should have said instead of what he did say I would be okay with that. It is a matter of character and integrity. If you are going to take responsibility when things are going good but then blame others when it goes bad, that is a sign of poor character, at least in my book.

This is why I would never make it in politics. Sure I've done a lot of bad things in my life but I don't hide from them. I may not put them out on display but I do take responsibility for my actions. Right or wrong when Nixon was found out he stepped aside. Whether he was forced out or did it on his own, he stood up and took responsibility and stepped aside.

Shouldn't we expect our leaders to shoulder the responsibilities of their job and not blame others and just "soldier" on and get the job done to the best of their ability? Shouldn't we expect them to act like adults and do the best they can and quit blaming others?

Chad

Chad, don't discount the fact that the American people wanted our troops out of there and they said so clearly through 2 elections. That said, the world and things change quickly and the President acted decisively and quickly in response.

MiddleAgesMan
08-16-2014, 12:44 PM
Chad, you appear to be looking 'real hard' for a reason to criticize President Obama; it doesn't exist. But it is a 'tell' on your politics.

Ditto.

George Jung
08-17-2014, 08:31 AM
'What is it about Obama' would make a helluva thread. Of course, if you (or we) knew that - it's likely our pay grade would be a bit higher!

Bubba L.
08-17-2014, 08:50 AM
It seems as if Chad wants to say that he "wants" to like Obama while trying his darnedest to convince us that Obama is no good. I prefer RodB who comes right out and says that he thinks Obama is a POS. RodB is at least honest.

Gene

cs
08-17-2014, 10:26 AM
I see you guys are like any other extremist out there whether it be left or right. You only hear what you want to hear and if it don't fit into your tight well defined scope you don't want to hear it, you don't want to expand your knowledge base, if it isn't they way you think it is wrong and you aren't even going to listen.


You guys seem to be missing the point of why I started this thread. I wanted to learn more about what was and is perceived as a duplicity in what he is or isn't taking credit for. Nothing more nothing less. It was not intended as a troll. The difference being a troll post just to get a response, a rise, out of others. This was posted to gather information and not get a rise.

But of course the extremist only hear what they want to hear. I don't guess anyone heard that I said I voted for Obama the first time around. What they did hear was I didn't vote for him the second time around and like all extremist they made the assumption that I voted for Romney. Maybe I voted for some independent or maybe as a protest vote over the poor quality of candidates I wrote in Jimmy Buffett. You don't know. You just assume that because I didn't vote for Obama I voted for Romney. And of course you didn't hear that I supported Carter, all you heard was I supported Reagan. And you didn't even pay attention to the fact that I voted for Perot.

Just like all other extremist out there you are so dialed in on your own little world that you completely zone out any other options. This group in a sense reminds of MM in the fact that if you don't agree with him you must be evil and at the root of all the problems. Now of course I like MM and he is a friend we just don't agree on a lot of things.

So I guess you guys can go ahead and live in your own little world never trying to learn more. Me on the other hand I will ask questions when I don't know the answer and I will keep my mind open to other alternatives and always seek to learn more and never try to be so dialed in that I refuse to listen.

And BTW if you aren't even man enough to read my PM's or respond to them why don't you go ahead and put me on your ignore list, or better yet send Scot a message and ask him to ban me. It don't matter either way.

Chad

Glen Longino
08-17-2014, 11:05 AM
The thread title turned out to be a Joke!
Should have been
"Please Tell Me What I Want To Hear Or I'll Turn Into A Judgemental Arse"

Tom Montgomery
08-17-2014, 12:38 PM
I just looked above at who you've voted for. This is all a waste of time. You seem to have no actual guiding philosophy...anchor if you will.
I voted for Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan twice, George H.W. Bush once, Ross Perot twice, Al Gore, John Kerry and Barack Obama twice.

I suppose you could accuse me of being all over the place and lacking an actual guiding philosophy, just as you have accused Chad.

I say I learned and gained wisdom over the years as I transitioned from being a moderate independent to a decade of infatuation with GOP conservative thought to a virtually complete rejection of that bankrupt (literally and figuratively) political philosophy.

Why do you need to be so nasty?

Tom Montgomery
08-17-2014, 12:47 PM
All I can say, Chad, is that during the primary campaigns in 2008 virtually every Forumite in the Bilge, lefty and righty, claimed that he felt sorry for whoever was elected POTUS because he would be inheriting such a godawful mess both foreign and domestic.

I certainly do not view President Obama as being duplicitous. I view him as an honest man attempting to deal with extremely difficult situations. Sometimes that requires modifying "promises" in ways that were not anticipated.

Your miles obviously vary.

Tom Montgomery
08-17-2014, 12:55 PM
Why is everyone making nice with Chad when he is being wilfully ignorant by ignoring all the very good and clear explanations? He seems to be yanking your chains and you guys are lapping it up? He's like a RodB with a fake veneer of humble.

GeneWell, it's like this, Gene. Unlike you, Chad is a longtime member of the WBF who has been unfailing polite over the years. Quite a few Forumites have met him in person. He has shared his personal stories with us as he has been raising a family and serving this nation in the U.S. Army. Most of us like him after years of interaction with him on this Forum. Most of us can agree to disagree with people like Chad.

You not only have seen fit to behave insultingly onward him, but also toward another Forumite who has not participated in this thread.

You and I mostly agree on politics but apart from that I suspect we are nothing alike. You have earned spot on my "ignore list." Over 50% of those who have made my list have ended up permanently banned from the Forum. Good luck.

By the way, Chad... placing someone on your ignore list blocks any further pm's from them. Something to think about.

Bubba L.
08-17-2014, 01:11 PM
Well Tom, when polite is used as a shield to hide behind it becomes worthless and is itself an insult. If you need to add me to your ignore list then I misjudged you. I thought you were better.

Gene

Tom Montgomery
08-17-2014, 01:29 PM
Well Tom, when polite is used as a shield to hide behind it becomes worthless and is itself an insult. If you need to add me to your ignore list then I misjudged you. I thought you were better.

GeneIt seems to me that Chad only became chippy after a few posters adopted a chippy attitude themselves.

I am OK with someone who respectfully disagrees with me.

As to landing on my "ignore list," you won't be lonely. Boater14 made it to my list as well.

By the way my apologies for confusing the two of you. It was Boater14, not you, who gratuitously bashed a Forumite who has not participated in this thread.

rbgarr
08-17-2014, 04:22 PM
the thread title turned out to be a joke!
Should have been
"please tell me what i want to hear or i'll turn into a judgemental arse"

lol

+1!

John Smith
08-17-2014, 07:58 PM
I see you guys are like any other extremist out there whether it be left or right. You only hear what you want to hear and if it don't fit into your tight well defined scope you don't want to hear it, you don't want to expand your knowledge base, if it isn't they way you think it is wrong and you aren't even going to listen.


You guys seem to be missing the point of why I started this thread. I wanted to learn more about what was and is perceived as a duplicity in what he is or isn't taking credit for. Nothing more nothing less. It was not intended as a troll. The difference being a troll post just to get a response, a rise, out of others. This was posted to gather information and not get a rise.

But of course the extremist only hear what they want to hear. I don't guess anyone heard that I said I voted for Obama the first time around. What they did hear was I didn't vote for him the second time around and like all extremist they made the assumption that I voted for Romney. Maybe I voted for some independent or maybe as a protest vote over the poor quality of candidates I wrote in Jimmy Buffett. You don't know. You just assume that because I didn't vote for Obama I voted for Romney. And of course you didn't hear that I supported Carter, all you heard was I supported Reagan. And you didn't even pay attention to the fact that I voted for Perot.

Just like all other extremist out there you are so dialed in on your own little world that you completely zone out any other options. This group in a sense reminds of MM in the fact that if you don't agree with him you must be evil and at the root of all the problems. Now of course I like MM and he is a friend we just don't agree on a lot of things.

So I guess you guys can go ahead and live in your own little world never trying to learn more. Me on the other hand I will ask questions when I don't know the answer and I will keep my mind open to other alternatives and always seek to learn more and never try to be so dialed in that I refuse to listen.

And BTW if you aren't even man enough to read my PM's or respond to them why don't you go ahead and put me on your ignore list, or better yet send Scot a message and ask him to ban me. It don't matter either way.

Chad

Unless you voted for Romney, you did vote for Obama.

Captain Intrepid
08-17-2014, 09:13 PM
I'm no huge fan of Obama, but while his statements aren't 100% forthright, they aren't duplicitous either.

I think this page has a fair explanation of the whole thing, summarized by...


Obama, when he took office, could have steered the operation in a different direction, amping up the military force in Iraq or pledging a long-term presence there. But he adhered to the blueprint, including trying to extend the withdrawal deadline. Only when that failed because of the immunity question did Obama announce -- and take credit for -- the full withdrawal. It was a savvy political move maybe, but not a totally forthright statement.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/nov/03/barack-obama/ad-says-obama-reason-iraq-pullout/

Basically, as I see it, he took credit for pulling out the troops, though he would have preferred to only pull out combat troops. The sort of pragmatic half victory that earns him my respect. He seems to understand, as Bismark put it, that politics is the art of the possible, even though he's far too conservative for my liking, and tries to compromise with ideological radicals too much.

Bubba L.
08-17-2014, 09:26 PM
It seems to me that Chad only became chippy after a few posters adopted a chippy attitude themselves.

I am OK with someone who respectfully disagrees with me.

As to landing on my "ignore list," you won't be lonely. Boater14 made it to my list as well.

By the way my apologies for confusing the two of you. It was Boater14, not you, who gratuitously bashed a Forumite who has not participated in this thread.


Apology accepted, I was wondering about that. For my part I'm not the only one to make an observation about Chad's motives, real or perceived, but I was rather blunt about it. For that I do apologize, to Chad and the forum in general.

Gene

Glen Longino
08-17-2014, 10:48 PM
I'm disappointed the thread took the turn it did.
There was a lot of reasonable input, IMO.

cs
08-18-2014, 06:52 AM
I want to start with an apology for calling Boater a FI. You are right that was neither the nice nor the right thing to do and I apologize for losing my temper.

I get frustrated when people don't want to hear what you have to say, they only hear what they want. I hate it when people make assumptions based on what they think they know. It is kinda like being called a raciest just because you have a rebel flag tattoo. When somebody does that it kinda irritates me and when you live on the knife edge of anger it just takes a little push.

You say this information has been out there and I'm sure it has. It sometimes is hard to decipher what is or isn't out there and is or isn't true. It seems everyone takes an extreme left or right view and if that is all you have to go on it is hard to make and educated judgement. All I did was ask the question so I could learn. Believe me or believe me not, that is your choice and I really don't want to argue that point any more. Those that know me will know that no malicious intent was meant.

And John on my ballot there was more choices than just Obama or Romney. There is even a spot on the bottom of my ballot where you can write in Jimmy Buffett.

Chad

John Smith
08-18-2014, 08:44 AM
I want to start with an apology for calling Boater a FI. You are right that was neither the nice nor the right thing to do and I apologize for losing my temper.

I get frustrated when people don't want to hear what you have to say, they only hear what they want. I hate it when people make assumptions based on what they think they know. It is kinda like being called a raciest just because you have a rebel flag tattoo. When somebody does that it kinda irritates me and when you live on the knife edge of anger it just takes a little push.

You say this information has been out there and I'm sure it has. It sometimes is hard to decipher what is or isn't out there and is or isn't true. It seems everyone takes an extreme left or right view and if that is all you have to go on it is hard to make and educated judgement. All I did was ask the question so I could learn. Believe me or believe me not, that is your choice and I really don't want to argue that point any more. Those that know me will know that no malicious intent was meant.

And John on my ballot there was more choices than just Obama or Romney. There is even a spot on the bottom of my ballot where you can write in Jimmy Buffett.

Chad

I appreciate that it is possible to vote for someone else. The effect of that vote, however, is the target of my point.

In 2000, a good percentage of those who voted for Nader would have voted for Gore if Nader wasn't on the ballot, so, in effect, voting for Nader was a vote for Bush. In '92, Perot, according to the polls I saw, took fairly equally from both Bush and Clinton.

In our system, we have two candidates. One of them is going to be president. If you don't vote for the lesser of what you see as two evils, you risk electing the greater of those two evils.

In the overall scheme of things, there are differences between telling the people we KNOW Saddam has WMD's, and we KNOW where they are located, when we don't know any such thing, or telling us those aluminum tubes are only able to be used for nuclear weapons after those who really know about this stuff say they cannot be used for such a purpose, which is outright lying, and making statements maybe honest and true at the time, but may fall victim to changing circumstances over time.

There are a lot of "moving parts" in this world. Seems to me it's been fairly well established than the removal of American military from Iraq was not a totally unilateral decision by the US. Iraq had a say.

Michael Moore once said, back in '03 or '04 something to the effect that if Iraq held open, free elections, they would elect a Shiite. Simple math. That would likely lead to the problems it led to.

Each of us gets to make our own decisions based upon the facts as we see them. I was in agreement with Moore. I viewed the invasion of Iraq as a huge mistake, and whatever that invasion leads to is the responsibility of the president who made the decision to invade. REMEMBER, PLEASE that following our resolution and the UN's resolution, Saddam granted the weapons inspectors total access. In three months time Saddam could have been disarmed (That was the stated purpose of all this at the time) of any weapons he wasn't supposed to have, and not a single military boot would have been needed. It was Bush who yanked the inspectors, changed the mission to removing Saddam, and invaded. And it turned out to be a huge mistake. Maybe the single biggest mistake any president has ever made.

I'm not an Obamamaniac, and I got thrown out of a few places back in '08 for asking the Obamamaniacs "how" he was going to magically get cooperation from the GOP. That said, for a president that's gotten zero assistance from the opposing party, I think he's accomplished a good deal.

I also recognize he inherited situations insofar as foreign policy is concerned that leave him very limited options, and as often as not none of the options available are "good" choices. Kind of like our election; lesser of the bad choices.

I'll end with this: If one is concerned with the truth of our president, one should really be concerned with the accuracy of fact or prediction of the entire Republican Party over the last 30 or so years. In '93, every Republican voted against Clinton's budget. They ALL told us it would destroy our economy, add to the debt, etc. THEY WERE WRONG. They all came on during the week before Starr's report was released and assured us Starr would nail Clinton on Whitewater, Travelgate, and fostergate. Turned out Starr CLEARED both Clintons on those. They also all told us they would not impeach Clinton if Starr's report only included Monica. THEY LIED!

You seem like a nice gentleman. I appreciate that, and the civil tone of your posts. However, given our recent past as a nation, I see something really strange and a 'nit-picking' quality to the question your OP asks.

If I may make an analogy: Bush had warnings of an attack. He ignored those warnings. That doesn't make him responsible for the attack.

Bubba L.
08-18-2014, 09:50 AM
I'm disappointed the thread took the turn it did.
There was a lot of reasonable input, IMO.

Yep.

Gene