Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

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  • Capt Zatarra
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2011
    • 537

    Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    As some of you may know from my schooner build thread that I lost my boat, so now I have to start over. For those who are new to my situation here in Nicaragua, lets just say that I was a victim of a series of unfortunate events in which my boat and myself were flotsam in a larger political money grab. In order not to wallow in self pity or spend my time dreaming up diabolical ways to exact horrible vengeance on all those responsible for the past events I am in the process of reaching up and grabbing my bootstraps to pull me back up and look forward to brighter and better future. Needless to say, here I am in that unique position of starting over from scratch, except for all my accumulated experience. After all how many times have we said to our selves, 'if I had to do it all over again I would do it such and such way'. So now I am blessed with the opportunity to take all the 'such and such ways' and all the 'if only I had known that before' and make them a reality. The only problem is I failed to write down, take pictures, or other wise record said moments, so that if the time ever came, I would have a thorough list of every thing to do, so that this time I could do it flawlessly. So this is where all of you guys come in, I'm pretty sure each of you can remember at least one of these 'if only' and maybe two or three of the 'such and such' ideas. So with your help I should be able to map out the perfect schooner for my triumphant return to the sea.

    Here is a little about me. About a thousand years ago, I grew up with boats mostly canoes, and then kayaks and some fishing boats. In my early twenties I started sailing with a windsurfer, (I still think that if someone really wants to understand the dynamic of sailing they should learn to windsurf). This led me to being invited to sail on an actual sailboat, IIRC a freedom 40. I had dreamed of sailing since i was a kid, it was a pivital moment for me, I had found what I was ment to do. Sail. Later a friend with ninty year old wooden sailboat invited me to join his crew for the racing season. I did. Going below in that old sailboat the first time was like intering in to the holy of holies of the temple of the most high paternal and sacred order of the wooden boat. I was converted, I was in love, that was my moment on the road to Tarsas. From then it was wood for me. So more sailing and racing, I was an avid sailor of OPB's(other peoples boats) tons of racing and then cruising came in to my life, when I got my own sailboat, and racing became any time I was sailing in the same direction as another sailboat, whether they knew it or not, then cruising the west coast of north and central America. And some time spent as a charter Captain. along the way my preference went from sloop to ketch to schooner.

    About five years ago, I ran into another sailor who was looking around Nicaragua for rare and exotic hardwoods. He told me about how several years ago he had sailed in to Brazil and while there he bought four pieces of exotic hardwood, a 12"x12"x36", a 12"x24"x24", a 12"x12"x48", a 12"x24"x36". After wrestling these on board he left them on the cabin sole in the saloon and in the berth for the rest of is trip up through south America and the Caribbean, and on to Florida. Where in Miami he put an add in a local musical instrument magazine to sell the wood. He sold it all the first day the magazine was out, for $24,000. I was a little incredulous, after a little math I said 'that's about $117 a board foot!' 'Yeah' he said, 'but wood like this you don't sell by the foot this stuff you sell by the pound and it is heavy!' apparently these several species were very sought after for flute making and other wooden musical instruments. He had done his home work and knew that they were not normally imported. The funny part was that in every country that searched his boat when he checked in, climbed all over the wood looking in the cabinets and asking if he had any thing to declare, apparently assuming the wood was for the boat. And paid it no mind to it at all. Now this sailor looks for special and rare woods as he sails around and sales them when he gets to Miami. Which is about every two years. Even if this sailor's tale is inflated for the purpose of incurring a second round of cold and bubbly, it still got me to thinking, and a little googling I found several accounts of sailors starting to haul freight. A schooner sailed from here with a load of cacao beans to Boston. Some other schooner hauling French wine to the UK and Scandanavia. Another in the Craribbean hauling from Florida to the smaller islands. Another from Hawaii to asorted islands on the way to Karabati, and then back to Hawaii.
    So on the surface there appears to be something here. I next looked on the Internet to see if the navel architects were designing any schooners to carry some freight. And sure enough there were several. Our own Tad Roberts here on the WBF has a really nice looking one, It's a 60'LOD if you haven't been to his websight check it out http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/ne...argoschooner60

    although it is steel construction not wood. Ted Brewer Also has a steel one, that's 53' LOD only his design is a knockabout ergo it has no bow sprit. http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_steel/albatross.htm

    And I just cannot see myself in a boat without a bowsprit. Classic Yacht Design's 44-40 has such sweet lines, and I read some where that one of the owner/builders had left out some cabins or had in some manner rearanged the space for freight. She is 59' 2" LOD http://www.classic-yacht-design.com/...-40/44-40.html

    And my favorite so far is the KastenMarine 66' schooner. One of the really fun things that my family and I did with our boat was the 'Tall Ship Challenge" we loved it the crowd the other ships the events, my favorite was sailing out with about 15 to twenty passengers and having a cannon battle with the other ships that had cannons. We once had a cannon battle with a reenactment group set up on the shore. All the ships with cannons lines up in order of battle (in this case largest to smallest, I was the smallest) and sailed past where the shore battery was set up and we would fire our cannons as we bare on the gun placement, and they in turn were trying to reload fast enough to keep up a return fire as we gave them our broadside. It was so cool. I was thinking that this "Sulawesi Privateer" would be perfect for the Tall Ship races in the EU. and the US. and she more then the others could mount swivel guns on her rail in style. She comes in at 66' LOD http://www.kastenmarine.com/sulawesi_privateer_66.htm

    Prior to arriving here in Nicaragua my wife and I had done some chartering with our boat. We had really enjoyed sharing sailing with others, there were a few knuckleheads, and even one young man I had to but ashore. All in all it seemed like a good to way to supplement our cruising kitty. So part of the rebuild was making two nice staterooms for guest, and a sleeping area for a cook, as I had come to the conclusion that I could not both run the boat and serve the kind, and quality of food I wanted. So I needed a full time chef.
    (My wife cannot work in the galley while underway except in the most gentle of weather.)
    But now I'm wondering if this freight idea might not be a more advantages. Take for example 18year old Flor de Cana rum here can had for about $20 and sells in some Asian countries for over $100. If I sold it there and bought some rare Saki and then sold that when I got to the Med. I think you get the picture. What's wrong with this idea. I realize that if I sailed into a country with ten tons of rum there would be some duty and tariff issues. But what if you kept the amount of each item small enough and mixed the load, some rum, some hardwood, some cacao beans, some coconut oil, so that it didn't look to suspect. Or maybe you hire an agent who will pave the way before you arrive. I am trying to think of the pros and cons of the difference between accessional charters or trading goods from port to port while sailing around the world. This is where I hope we can have a lively decision to help me think this through.
    Areas that I can think of is
    1. Feasibility
    2. Risk/reward
    3. enjoyment (I don't want this to become something that takes the joy out of sailing.
    4. Size of schooner (the ones I've listed above are described as being handled by husband and wife crews.
    5. what freight and to where.
    6. At the tall ship festival in Tacoma WA. In 2005 there were one million one hundred thousand tickets sold at the gate, every available three hour cruise and evening cruise were sold out. Many of the boats had hats, cups, teeshirts, keychains, etc, for sale, the stuff sold like hot cakes, what if the boat had stuff for sale that the ship had brought from around the world. Rum, hand made crafts from the islands, other dodads and geegays, would it make more money then hats and coffee mugs?

    Well if your still reading you've made it to the end. I really appreciate your effort to follow my ramblings. So what do you think. Have I gone round the bend? Where are the pitfalls. Is the high prices of fuel and the consumers desire for carbon free transported goods, going to continue to raise. Is this a passing fad or a real opportunity for the right person. Is freight a better way to augment income then chartering, while sailing around the world? Capt. Zatarra
    “The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner.” – Robert Louis Stevenson
  • purri
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2009
    • 12954

    #2
    Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Liquor import duties and sales tax are not friendly!
    Xanthorrea

    Comment

    • Capt Zatarra
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2011
      • 537

      #3
      Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

      Originally posted by purri
      Liquor import duties and sales tax are not friendly!
      So I've heard. Is it time to start rum running up again?
      “The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner.” – Robert Louis Stevenson

      Comment

      • wizbang 13
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2009
        • 24811

        #4
        Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

        I tried to carry baskets from Dominica to Nevis. Baskets.The customs in Nevis did not care about any carricom freedom of trade when it was a white man doing the trading. I did not make a second run.
        I thought it was daft of you to attempt a large boat project in Nicaragua, insofar as i have seen countless folks get jammed up in the third world caribbean.
        Even if you could snap your fingers and have a magic boat, I still think it is daft to try to make an honest living amoung corrupt countries.
        I have also wondered"what would i do if the chit hit the fan and i lost my boat". I would go to the usvi a week after a big hurricane with five grand in my pocket and try to find a westsail with a hole in it.

        Comment

        • wizbang 13
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2009
          • 24811

          #5
          Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

          ​also, consider that with a cargo boat, you would be tying up in the funkiest ports. Hot, dirty, dangerous. not hanging out in nice sandy beach anchorages with babes on the beach
          edit .... hey I was at that T
          acoma thing in 2005 with my wee ketch.
          Last edited by wizbang 13; 08-11-2014, 08:35 AM.

          Comment

          • Larks
            Larks
            • Jul 2007
            • 16793

            #6
            Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

            I'll be watching the responses here re running a vessel as a small cargo business with interest Z, not because I'd be able to do anything about it, but because I think it has great merit for you if it's achievable.

            I really like the vessels that you're looking at, particularly the Shpountz and the Kasten Marine vessels (though wonder how sea kindly the Kasten might be - hard to tell from the profile) and I'm also very heartened to hear that you have a plan for recovery and that it is such an exciting plan.


            Good luck with this Z, like I say I'll be watching with interest and hope that you're able to pursue this successfully.
            Larks

            “It’s impossible”, said pride.
            “It’s risky”, said experience.
            “It’s pointless”, said reason.
            “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

            LPBC Beneficiary

            "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

            Comment

            • Canoeyawl
              .
              • Jun 2003
              • 37705

              #7
              Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

              I would go to the usvi a week after a big hurricane with five grand in my pocket and try to find a westsail with a hole in it.
              ..

              Comment

              • Capt Zatarra
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2011
                • 537

                #8
                Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

                Wizbang, daft or not Nicaragua is where I broke down, some things you cannot choose. So I'm playing the cards that life delt me. Unfortunately for me this little fiasco played out only in the marina I was in, all the others in the country it was life as usual. Some times your the rock and sometimes your the window. As to staying in the stinky ports and such. I don't see the need for that, I pictured it more low profile, I think the idea that is developing in my head is to still look and act like a cruiser but collect high value items at their source where they are cheap, and sell them where they are expensive. A couple of cases of rum here, a couple of cases of vanilla in Mexico, Cinnamon in Sri Lanka, silk in Thailand, essential oils from almost every where, black pearls from Tahiti, rugs from Kuwait. Like the sailor who was moving exotic wood, it seems to me that it is best if someone doing this could sail completely under the radar. If that is the case the boat would need some storage space without looking a like a cargo ship, perhaps it should look like a Sail training ship..... But it sounds like you lean way over on the keep taking wanabe sailors out for the wine and fine food route of augmenting the cruising kitty. Also the idea of going in after a hurricane with some cash sounds like it could have some real potential.

                Larks, I'm not sure this is the plan yet! This is about exploring this option to see if it is the plan. Heck maybe I'll get one of these and sail the simple life.

                Super simple no rigging, flat sails, easy single handing, only 2 sheets to the cockpit, what's not to like. Z.
                “The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner.” – Robert Louis Stevenson

                Comment

                • George Ray
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2004
                  • 2765

                  #9
                  Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

                  4 What it's worth:

                  GreenHeart Project: nice idea seems to be stalled - - -


                  This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
                  E. Cayce

                  Comment

                  • artif
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2011
                    • 1420

                    #10
                    Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

                    These guys are/were doing it


                    and I came very close to sailing on Irene on a cargo carrying trans-atlantic voyage a couple of years back.

                    Comment

                    • Paul Denison
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2001
                      • 1058

                      #11
                      Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

                      Sounds like a good way to risk seizure of your ship.

                      Comment

                      • peb
                        Papist and Texan
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 14281

                        #12
                        Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

                        Originally posted by Capt Zatarra
                        realize that if I sailed into a country with ten tons of rum there would be some duty and tariff issues. But what if you kept the amount of each item small enough and mixed the load, some rum, some hardwood, some cacao beans, some coconut oil, so that it didn't look to suspect.
                        Originally posted by Capt Zatarra
                        So I've heard. Is it time to start rum running up again
                        After what you just went through battling corruption in a third world country, you are seriously considering a career in smuggling into/out of third world countries? I am no expert on the feasibility of this all. I too have heard stories of cruisers who do quite a little bit of income by trading goods. But I think it best if one did it on the up-and-up.

                        Comment

                        • gilberj
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2010
                          • 4157

                          #13
                          Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

                          I agree....Sailing under the radar is not very wise. you will eventually get caught. Governments all over are very tight about trade and tariffs. Other lessor marine adventures will receive little attention and can sail under the radar. I suggest you look for an agent with import and export connections. They can get the cargoes, and you can carry them.

                          Comment

                          • Junkyard Dog
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2013
                            • 303

                            #14
                            Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

                            Glad to see you back and with such a positive attitude! I spent the better part of a day last week reading up on your old thread, and felt absolutely gutted.

                            There was a couple from Houston that were trying to bring in coffee 10,000 lbs at a time, but lost their boat in a storm. http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/bay_a....html?mode=jqm

                            So, there are markets out there, plus with chartering, maybe you could make a go of it. I agree with the above about staying legal. I hope you got your passport issues worked out.

                            Good luck!

                            Comment

                            • chuckt
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2009
                              • 4970

                              #15
                              Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

                              Boy you guys are a wet rag. Unfortunately, they are probably right.
                              Chuck Thompson

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