PDA

View Full Version : Is it true that the Hurricane and the Spitfire



Paul Pless
08-08-2014, 07:11 PM
were only the first and second monoplanes ever adopted by Britain's armed forces?

seanz
08-08-2014, 07:25 PM
I suppose so, could be, I reckon.

This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_P-26_Peashooter was developed before this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Gladiator and the Hurricane wasn't developed before '35 and adopted in '37.


These history discussions are very interesting. Did you know that some people believe that the war could have been shortened if the Spitfire had of been more widely produced?

The Bigfella
08-08-2014, 07:38 PM
were only the first and second monoplanes ever adopted by Britain's armed forces?

Nah.

Try 1923 for the de Havilland Hummingbird.

The Avro Anson was another one before either of the two you suggest too.

The Bigfella
08-08-2014, 07:42 PM
I suppose so, could be, I reckon.

This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_P-26_Peashooter was developed before this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Gladiator and the Hurricane wasn't developed before '35 and adopted in '37.


These history discussions are very interesting. Did you know that some people believe that the war could have been shortened if the Spitfire had of been more widely produced?

Some people believe that the war was shortened because the Brits and Americans knew that Pearl Harbour was to be bombed, but didn't warn the troops

Captain Intrepid
08-08-2014, 07:48 PM
Naw. There were a couple french monoplanes, the Bullet and the Type L in the Royal Flying Corps during WWI.

seanz
08-08-2014, 08:53 PM
Just spotted this.



“Those old Gladiators aren't made of stressed steel like a Hurricane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hurricane) or a Spit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire). They have taut canvas wings, covered with magnificently inflammable dope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_dope), and underneath there are hundreds of small thin sticks, the kind you put under the logs for kindling, only these are drier and thinner. If a clever man said, 'I am going to build a big thing that will burn better and quicker than anything else in the world,' and if he applied himself diligently to his task, he would probably finish up by building something very like a Gladiator.






— Roald Dahl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roald_Dahl), "A Piece of Cake", from the short story collection The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Story_of_Henry_Sugar_and_Six_More)

Rum_Pirate
08-08-2014, 09:04 PM
I love the old 'Stringbags'

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/Rum_Pirate/3SwordfishApril2012.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/Rum_Pirate/2SwordfishApril2012.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/Rum_Pirate/1SwordfishApril2012.jpg

The Bigfella
08-08-2014, 09:35 PM
The early Hurricanes had fabric-covered wings, over wooden formers and stringers.

Lew Barrett
08-08-2014, 09:48 PM
I believe the common understanding is that the Spit was the first all metal low wing monoplane fighter of the RAF and that if you say all that, you get to the truth of it.

Wooden Boat Fittings
08-08-2014, 10:24 PM
Can someone tell me why the RAF roundel has a yellow circle around the outside of it?

Mike

Waddie
08-08-2014, 10:30 PM
I believe the common understanding is that the Spit was the first all metal low wing monoplane fighter of the RAF and that if you say all that, you get to the truth of it.

I think we have a winner. And besides being the most beautiful airplane ever designed it's real advantage was how up-gradable it was.

regards,
Waddie

hokiefan
08-08-2014, 10:36 PM
I think we have a winner. And besides being the most beautiful airplane ever designed it's real advantage was how up-gradable it was.

regards,
Waddie

We've had this argument before. Then and now I firmly believe that title goes to the P-51 Mustang, with the Spitfire as an extremely close second. But its a taste thing after all.

Cheers,

Bobby

PeterSibley
08-08-2014, 10:37 PM
Were does the Bolton Paul Defiant come in the stream of development ?

Canoeyawl
08-08-2014, 10:56 PM
Although much earlier, the French had it going on.

1913 Deperdussin - cold molded plywood

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/Deperdussin-Racer/IMAGES/deperdussin-racer-title.jpg

skuthorp
08-08-2014, 10:59 PM
Were does the Bolton Paul Defiant come in the stream of development ?
Boulton Paul manufactured Hawker Demons and others of that range. The Demon I think from my step dad's tales had a metal frame and skin.

PeterSibley
08-08-2014, 11:48 PM
http://worldofwarplanes.com/dcont/fb/image/wowp_plane_render_tsh-3_1600x1200_en.jpg

PeterSibley
08-08-2014, 11:51 PM
Polikarpov I 6 early 30's operation in Spain.

http://worldofwarplanes.com/dcont/fb/image/wowp_screens_ussr_i-16-5_03-l.jpg

birlinn
08-09-2014, 02:46 AM
The Bristol M1c monoplane fighter was about the fastest thing in the air in WW1. The RFC distrusted monoplanes, so it was used by the navy.

PeterSibley
08-09-2014, 02:59 AM
The Bristol M1c monoplane fighter was about the fastest thing in the air in WW1. The RFC distrusted monoplanes, so it was used by the navy.

Fokker Eindecker repo



https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flugzeuginfo.net%2Facimages%2F fokkereiii_piotrbiskupski.jpg&f=1

The Bigfella
08-09-2014, 02:59 AM
We've had this argument before. Then and now I firmly believe that title goes to the P-51 Mustang, with the Spitfire as an extremely close second. But its a taste thing after all.

Cheers,

Bobby

Should I tell you what I think of your taste? Nah.... the Mustang speaks for itself

http://forum.armyairforces.com/download.axd?file=1;205411

beernd
08-09-2014, 04:33 AM
We've had this argument before. Then and now I firmly believe that title goes to the P-51 Mustang, with the Spitfire as an extremely close second. But its a taste thing after all.

Cheers,

Bobby

I would use most beautiful to describe the Spitfire.
With the mustang 'sexiest' comes to mind

isla
08-09-2014, 04:51 AM
I would use most beautiful to describe the Spitfire.
With the mustang 'sexiest' comes to mindIf "pregnant" appeals to you |:)

PeterSibley
08-09-2014, 04:59 AM
The Russian came up with some VERY good planes . Lavochkin

http://worldofwarplanes.com/dcont/fb/image/wowp_plane_render_la-5_1600x1200_en.jpg

http://worldofwarplanes.com/dcont/fb/image/wowp_screens_ussr_la-5_02-l.jpg

PeterSibley
08-09-2014, 05:08 AM
and the best !! A Yak 3.

http://worldofwarplanes.com/dcont/fb/image/wowp_plane_render_yak-3_1600x1200_en.jpg

Specifications

Hit Points
240


Weight , kg
2691.6




Firepower
131


20 mm ShVAK (1941) (H)
1


12.7 mm UBS (S)
2




Maneuverability
349


Average Time to Turn 360 deg , s
13.90


Rate of Roll , /s
130


Controllability
100





Airspeed
592


Top Speed at Sea Level , km/h
614


Top Speed at Best Altitude , km/h
646


Maximum Dive Speed , km/h
720


Stall Speed , km/h
140


Rate of Climb , m/s
26.00


Optimum Airspeed , km/h
249




Altitude Performance , m
1300


Optimum Altitude , m
1300

PeterSibley
08-09-2014, 05:12 AM
Configuration Supermarine Spitfire XIV
Engine
http://worldofwarplanes.com/static/1.7.0/common/img/encyclopedia/planopedia/ico-engine.pngVII
Griffon IIB



Airframe
http://worldofwarplanes.com/static/1.7.0/common/img/encyclopedia/planopedia/ico-construction.pngVII
Spitfire XII



Wing-mounted weapon
http://worldofwarplanes.com/static/1.7.0/common/img/encyclopedia/planopedia/ico-gun.pngVII
4x20 mm Hispano Mk.II* (W)




Add standard configuration to compare
Module upgrades (http://worldofwarplanes.com/warplanes/gb/spitfire-xiv/#)
Specifications

Hit Points
285


Weight , kg
5050.0




Firepower
278


20 mm Hispano Mk.II* (W)
4




Maneuverability
298


Average Time to Turn 360 deg , s
20.10


Rate of Roll , /s
100


Controllability
100





Airspeed
635


Top Speed at Sea Level , km/h
595


Top Speed at Best Altitude , km/h
700


Maximum Dive Speed , km/h
780


Stall Speed , km/h
120


Rate of Climb , m/s
26.80


Optimum Airspeed , km/h
336




Altitude Performance , m
2000


Optimum Altitude , m
2000

PeterSibley
08-09-2014, 05:15 AM
http://worldofwarplanes.com/dcont/fb/image/wowp_plane_render_p51a_1600x1200_en.jpg

Specifications

Hit Points
250


Weight , kg
3834.0




Firepower
78


12.7 mm AN/M2 (W)
4




Maneuverability
287


Average Time to Turn 360 deg , s
21.90


Rate of Roll , /s
130


Controllability
94





Airspeed
545


Top Speed at Sea Level , km/h
480


Top Speed at Best Altitude , km/h
600


Maximum Dive Speed , km/h
800


Stall Speed , km/h
160


Rate of Climb , m/s
15.80


Optimum Airspeed , km/h
385




Altitude Performance , m
1850


Optimum Altitude , m
1850

Paul Fitzgerald
08-09-2014, 05:17 AM
An interesting article on the design of the Spitfire wing

http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/Publications/The%20Journal%20of%20Aeronautical%20History/2013-02_SpitfireWing-Ackroyd.pdf

purri
08-09-2014, 05:48 AM
Yes, and for all around capability I might invoke the Hawker Typhoon and some Italian designs.

moTthediesel
08-09-2014, 06:50 AM
[QUOTE=The Bigfella;4252695]Should I tell you what I think of your taste? Nah.... the Mustang speaks for itself

Unfair to use the earlier "B" version, this is more like it:

http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/p51-11a.jpg

Paul Pless
08-09-2014, 07:04 AM
Should I tell you what I think of your taste? Nah....

go for it, one of my favourites, typifies american brutishness, eh? :D

http://www.ukairshows.info/2004/airshows/duxfordjune/photographs/p47_3.jpg

WX
08-09-2014, 07:18 AM
The Mk v Spitfire was apparently the sweetest to fly but for looks with the Merlin engine my vote would be the Mk Vlll. In the Griffon engined Spits the Mk XlV was the duck's nuts.

The Bigfella
08-09-2014, 07:28 AM
go for it, one of my favourites, typifies american brutishness, eh? :D

http://www.ukairshows.info/2004/airshows/duxfordjune/photographs/p47_3.jpg


American obesity, more like it.... but designed by a Soviet chap.

Paul Pless
08-09-2014, 07:38 AM
designed by a Soviet chap.Russian, not Soviet - he left eight years before the revolution. And immigrants typify what's best about America. Always have. :D

Its always interesting to me to read or listen to pilots that were assigned P47's. Their first reaction is almost always negative, a groan when hearing the news; but they almost all universally fall in love with the plane very quickly. . .

WX
08-09-2014, 07:41 AM
The Mustang was the finest long range single engined fighter of the war. The Thunderbolt did it's best action in a dive, which at seven tons it did extremely well.

The Bigfella
08-09-2014, 07:42 AM
Russian, not Soviet. And immigrants typify what's best about America. Always have. :D

Its always interesting to me to read or listen to pilots that were assigned P47's. Their first reaction is almost always negative; but they almost all universally fall in love with the plane very quickly. . .

Georgian actually.... and some did. Some, not "almost universally" by a long way.

Paul Pless
08-09-2014, 08:47 AM
The Thunderbolt did it's best action in a dive, which at seven tons it did extremely well.That's the conventional wisdom; but above 15,000 ft, which is where it worked as a bomber escort, it could outclimb, out roll, and out turn both the BF109 and the FW190. The higher you got, the better its performance compared to almost all other single engine fighters. It was also extremely rugged, well armored, carried a lot of guns and ammo, plus rockets and bombs - it was one of the best ground support aircraft of the war. It had a well deserved reputation for bringing its pilots home.

The Bigfella
08-09-2014, 09:01 AM
[QUOTE=The Bigfella;4252695]Should I tell you what I think of your taste? Nah.... the Mustang speaks for itself

Unfair to use the earlier "B" version, this is more like it:

http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/p51-11a.jpg

It's still ugly. Here's one of the later ones that I photographed at an airshow

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/pic2_zps702efaec.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/pic2_zps702efaec.jpg.html)

Duncan Gibbs
08-09-2014, 09:15 AM
I'm rather partial to the P38 myself:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Lockheed_P-38_Lightning_(USAAC).jpg

IIRC Chuck had a mate who built a flying scale version of one in his garage and posted pictures here.

I think the designer of the Triumph Stag has the Spitfire in mind when he drew up his plans.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/Album%204/22-PK350PRACollection-001.jpg

The P51 is a far better looking plane than the Hurricane though...

http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Aircraft/hurricaneIV_ph2.jpg

I can't believe no one has posted pictures of either aircraft that this thread is the subject of!

Clarkey
08-09-2014, 09:59 AM
The Fairey Battle and Vickers Wellesley also pre-dated the Hurricane and Spitfire in service, although they were light bombers. The Battle was all-metal.

WX
08-09-2014, 04:46 PM
So the first Griffon powered Spits were Mk Xlls, I didn't know that.

Gerarddm
08-09-2014, 06:00 PM
Spit IX was the apogee IMHO.

I love that the modern F-16 adapted the under-fuselage scoop from the P-51D. Best looking modern fighter.

The Bigfella
08-09-2014, 07:24 PM
So the first Griffon powered Spits were Mk Xlls, I didn't know that.


You probably didn't know that because it isn't right.


The first Griffon-powered Spitfires were the Mk IV/XX (type 337), which were powered by a Griffon IIB engine. First flight was 27 November '41.

The Mk XII (type 366) didn't start appearing until Oct '42.

The Bigfella
08-09-2014, 07:28 PM
.... as a matter of interest, the first British pilot fatality of WW2 was Pilot Officer Montague Leslie Hulton-Harrop. The poor chap was shot down by a Spitfire. Yep, blue on blue.

The Bigfella
08-09-2014, 07:46 PM
Heh, heh,.... a nice tidbit:


On a number of missions, Spitfires were attacked in error by USAAF P-51s. One such incident came about on 31 December 1944, when 610 Squadron RAF was attacked. Using the Spitfire's "stunning" climb performance, pilots were "easily" able to escape and evade the Mustangs.

pp 41-42 Thomas, Andrew. Griffon Spitfire Aces: Aircraft of the Aces 81. London: Osprey Aerospace, 2008. ISBN 978-1846032981.

WX
08-09-2014, 10:50 PM
You probably didn't know that because it isn't right.


The first Griffon-powered Spitfires were the Mk IV/XX (type 337), which were powered by a Griffon IIB engine. First flight was 27 November '41.

The Mk XII (type 366) didn't start appearing until Oct '42.

Yeah but the Mk lV was really only a testbed. The Mk Xll was the first to see service.

The Bigfella
08-09-2014, 11:21 PM
Yeah but the Mk lV was really only a testbed. The Mk Xll was the first to see service.

Oh, so the Mk IV wasn't the first Spitfire with a Griffon engine?

Of course it was.

WX
08-09-2014, 11:50 PM
Oh, so the Mk IV wasn't the first Spitfire with a Griffon engine?

Of course it was.

OK if it's that important to you then yes it was. :-)

The Bigfella
08-10-2014, 01:06 AM
Here's an interesting chart.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Fourth/fighter-comp-chart_zps6cc4c2d2.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Fourth/fighter-comp-chart_zps6cc4c2d2.jpg.html)

Note that at various altitudes, relative advantages of various planes are reversed, etc. I was reading somewhere, that under 20,000' the Luftwaffe pilots were reluctant to engage a Spitfire. Different tactics were required for a large range of various scenarios.

Not hard to see why the tactic for a P-38 vs Zero was to bounce it, eh?

Also read that one of the deficiencies of the P-47 was the difficulty of employing deflection shooting due to the shape of the nose. P47 had pretty much a 1:1 kill:loss ratio.

... oh, and did you know that US air to air victories included 379 kills in Spitfires? That's more than the combined total for the P-39 P-400 :d

The Bigfella
08-10-2014, 02:47 AM
I think the B29 lads were somewhat lucky that these didn't make it into production

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/b2/e9/01/b2e901f520dd9301f89e13c08e0bea9a.jpg

That'd be the Shinzu J7W Shinden (Magnificent Lightning).

.... oh, btw... speaking about the Spitfire's low level performance.... the Spit was also involved in the highest air engagement of WW2... an action at 41,000' that went up to 43,000'. It encountered various problems, including a cannon jam that would make it fall every time it was fired.... and it didn't get the kill.... but it was enough for the Luftwaffe to curtail their high level ops.

However.... to get back to a previous theme. The biggest part of the air war was fought, ahem, on the Eastern Front.

This data is partly from wiki... but I've been fiddling around with some other sources too

Germany: Estimated total number of destroyed and damaged for the war totaled 76,875 aircraft, of which 40,000 were total losses and the remainder significantly damaged. By type, losses totaled 21,452 fighters, 12,037 bombers, 15,428 trainers, 10,221 twin-engine fighters, 5,548 ground attack, 6,733 reconnaissance, and 6,141 transports.

Italy: Total losses were 5,272 aircraft, of which 3,269 were lost in combat.

Japan: Estimates vary from 35,000 to 50,000 total losses, with about 20,000 lost operationally.

Finland: Reported losses during the Winter War totaled 67, of which 42 were operational, while 536 aircraft were lost during the Continuation War, of which 209 were operational losses. (Overall 603).

..... call it around 120,000 to 135,000 lost in total by Axis powers.

Soviet Union: Total losses were over 146,400 including 88,300 combat types. I haven't got their total victories, but they did end up with 2,933 aces with 40,793 kills among them (the US aces figures were 1,411 with 10,672 kills. Germany had 330 with 26,279)

British Empire losses were



United Kingdom: Europe 42,010 (including 30,045 fighters and 11,965 bombers)
Australia: Pacific and S.E.Asia 250


United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific). Against this... the US shot down 25,486.5 aircraft in combat. That includes 9,291 for the Navy and Marines, mostly in the Pacific, with another 6,182 destroyed on the ground


China: Total losses of the Nationalist Air Force were 2,468 (According to Chinese and Taiwanese Sources).

France: From the beginning of the war until the cease-fire in 1940, 892 aircraft were lost, of which 413 were in action and 234 were on the ground. Losses included 508 fighters and 218 bombers.(Overall 892)

Netherlands: Total losses were 81 aircraft during the May, 1940 campaign.

Poland: Total losses were 398 destroyed, including 116 fighters, 112 dive bombers, 81 reconnaissance aircraft, 36 bombers, 21 sea planes, and 9 transports

obscured by clouds
08-10-2014, 05:15 AM
Should I tell you what I think of your taste? Nah.... the Mustang speaks for itself

http://forum.armyairforces.com/download.axd?file=1;205411

I always considered that the radiator scoop makes it look pregnant.

I was out in the garden yesterday afternoon, and I heard the unmistakable sound of a Merlin engine. I looked up and there were the eliptical wingtips of a Spitfire. Where it was off to i don't know, heading west there's only the Irish sea. perhaps he was doing a tour of the peninsula and then heading back to Valley.

A schoolboys dream, overhead. Spitfire wins hands down IMO

PeterSibley
08-10-2014, 05:26 AM
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ctrl-c.liu.se%2Fmisc%2Fram%2Fyak-3m.jpg&f=1

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scenicreflections.com%2Ffiles% 2FYak_3_Wallpaper_0eztl.jpg&f=1

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coveroid.com%2Fwallpapers%2Fya k_3-1024x768.jpg&f=1

CliveP
08-10-2014, 08:17 AM
The oigional Spit of 1936 had blue paint, 2 blade ptop and no stripes . I think for looks, it was downhill from the first.
But all Spits (almost) were beautiful!!!
http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1413/13681246/24537558/409887206.jpghttp://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1413/13681246/24537558/409887207.jpg
Clive P

CliveP
08-10-2014, 10:16 AM
Before anyone asks... here is a not so lovely Spit
Built I beleive from obsolite marks, launched from catapults to deter those ugly great Condors,
and then abandond upon landing,...casting pearls before swine?

CliveP
08-10-2014, 10:17 AM
http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1413/13681246/24537558/409887515.jpg

CliveP
08-10-2014, 10:20 AM
And then there was the prototype Hurricane. It's canvas fuselage painted with silver dopehttp://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1413/13681246/24537558/409887513.jpg

Paul Pless
08-10-2014, 10:23 AM
Clive, thanks for posting the 1936 Spitfire. I think I agree with you, the most beautiful of them all. . .

CliveP
08-10-2014, 10:26 AM
Legend has the Spitfire morphing from the S6Bhttp://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1413/13681246/24537558/409887516.jpg

via the 224
to the Spit/
.
Clive P
http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1413/13681246/24537558/409887514.jpg

Clarkey
08-10-2014, 12:27 PM
Before anyone asks... here is a not so lovely Spit
Built I beleive from obsolite marks, launched from catapults to deter those ugly great Condors,
and then abandond upon landing,...casting pearls before swine?

I think you are mixing the float-equipped spitfires with CAM Hurricanes. The floatplane Spitfires (I think there were 3 or 4 in total) were never intended to be catapulted and abandoned on landing but to be operated from coastal bases in areas where no suitable airstrips existed - originally Norway but later the Med. I don't think they ever saw action.

The Bigfella
08-10-2014, 08:50 PM
I'll take the contra view on the Spit. The prototype is one of my least favourite of them.

Interesting that the prototype Hurricane has a later serial number K5083 than the prototype Spitfire, the number of which is automatically associated with the type for me... K5054. The Hurricane first flew on 6 Nov '35, ahead of the Spit which first flew on 5 March '36.

This one flies on a regular basis in the skies over the town that I grew up in

http://www.radschool.org.au/magazines/Vol36/images/Spitfire%20Pic.jpg

John B
08-10-2014, 09:22 PM
This man had a bit to do with Hurricanes and Spitfires.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/misc%2008/100_0461_1.jpg (http://s227.photobucket.com/user/Waione_photos/media/misc%2008/100_0461_1.jpg.html)

amazing what you accumulate isn't it, thats a hiking pack . I sometimes wonder if it got thrown 'in the back' ,or between the knees on a quick trip to an airbase somewhere.

The Bigfella
08-11-2014, 12:23 AM
Reading a few threads on various ww2 forums, it seems that the planes the Germans feared most were the Spitfire and the P-47.

The P-47 mostly because it was difficult to shoot down (air cooled).... and because they were good at bouncing lower fighters - eg those lining up to attack bombers.

The P-51 wasn't feared unless it was in a massive flock... the experienced pilots knew they could deal with it.

Oh.... and the first allied fighter to appear over Berlin - on March 14, 1941? A Spitfire, of course.

The Bigfella
08-11-2014, 01:39 AM
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aviation/267367d1405497017-great-photo-mossie-p-38-side-my-side-mossie-p-38.jpg

The Bigfella
08-11-2014, 05:43 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8a2lSTh0KZ8/U-h56IKx4II/AAAAAAABHEw/JKU3bf19UW8/s1600/Messerschmitt_Bf_109_12.jpg

Tom Hunter
08-11-2014, 06:05 AM
The Spit over Berlin in 1941 was an unarmed recon plane, not really fair to say it was the first fighter over Berlin.

Your stats on the previous page are very interesting, are you defining operational losses as from flying around and crashing, or from combat? There was a lot of flying around and crashing in the 40s.

Regarding the Japanese bomber killer mentioned earlier, there were a lot of really exciting concepts that never got built and usually they could not be. Talented engineers dreamed up a lot of totally unworkable concepts for tanks, ships, and especially planes during the war.

Paul Pless
08-11-2014, 06:10 AM
The P-51 wasn't feared unless it was in a massive flock... the experienced pilots knew they could deal with it.rofl

WX
08-11-2014, 06:12 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8a2lSTh0KZ8/U-h56IKx4II/AAAAAAABHEw/JKU3bf19UW8/s1600/Messerschmitt_Bf_109_12.jpg

BF 109, possibly a G.

WX
08-11-2014, 06:16 AM
I'll take the contra view on the Spit. The prototype is one of my least favourite of them.

Interesting that the prototype Hurricane has a later serial number K5083 than the prototype Spitfire, the number of which is automatically associated with the type for me... K5054. The Hurricane first flew on 6 Nov '35, ahead of the Spit which first flew on 5 March '36.

This one flies on a regular basis in the skies over the town that I grew up in

http://www.radschool.org.au/magazines/Vol36/images/Spitfire%20Pic.jpg

Ah the Mk Vlll my favourite. I saw it in flight when Col Pay owned it.

The Bigfella
08-11-2014, 06:20 AM
The Spit over Berlin in 1941 was an unarmed recon plane, not really fair to say it was the first fighter over Berlin.

Your stats on the previous page are very interesting, are you defining operational losses as from flying around and crashing, or from combat? There was a lot of flying around and crashing in the 40s.

Regarding the Japanese bomber killer mentioned earlier, there were a lot of really exciting concepts that never got built and usually they could not be. Talented engineers dreamed up a lot of totally unworkable concepts for tanks, ships, and especially planes during the war.

Its hard to know with some of the stats. For example, those for Japanese losses.... the US got about 15,000 (I haven't got the stats in front of me at present - but close enough)... yet wiki talks of 35,000 to 50,000 losses. I'm trying to pull a few sources together. One of the museum guys has pulled some good info together. I'll see if I can get it sorted out.

The Bigfella
08-11-2014, 06:31 AM
Ah the Mk Vlll my favourite. I saw it in flight when Col Pay owned it.

I've got an excellent photo of it when he first got it flying. Must try and find it. Taken by a pro photog. friend. I also saw it at the Bicentennial airshow at Richmond.... but he destroyed the prop when he hit a hole in the grass. I saw Stephen Death fly it when I went to the Temora Aviation Museum. Now I've got PS, I probably should revisit some of these and touch them up a tad

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Stationaryspit.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Stationaryspit.jpg.html)

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/spitnose.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/spitnose.jpg.html)

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/spit1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/spit1.jpg.html)

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/croppedspitfire-1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/croppedspitfire-1.jpg.html)

I'd like to go back there and take a tripod :d

CliveP
08-11-2014, 10:11 AM
Absolutely no connection with Spitfires or Hurricans, even with flosts!
But still an interesting pic. The M3.
Clive P
http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1413/13681246/24537558/409892369.jpg

CliveP
08-11-2014, 10:26 AM
A nice model of a float fitted Hurrcan.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1413/13681246/24537558/409892425.jpg
And then in action!http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1413/13681246/24537558/409892426.jpghttp://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1413/13681246/24537558/409892427.jpg

Clive P

CliveP
08-11-2014, 10:49 AM
PPP ( post posting post script)
The second pic shows a Hurricane on the catapult with wheels.
I am making a very wild guess.
Could it be one of the planes flown into Malta to help Faith, Hope & Charity?
Clive p

Lew Barrett
08-11-2014, 12:13 PM
I have a preference for the cleaner look of the Spitfire, but the Mustang looks a lot better and quite muscular in its later versions.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/071024-F-1234S-008.jpg

Clarkey
08-11-2014, 12:16 PM
PPP ( post posting post script)
The second pic shows a Hurricane on the catapult with wheels.
I am making a very wild guess.
Could it be one of the planes flown into Malta to help Faith, Hope & Charity?
Clive p

I don't think so, the Malta reinforcements arrived by conventional means. The picture is of a CAM (Catapult Aircraft Merchant) ship. They were fitted with the fighter as a one-shot defence against long-range anti-shipping aircraft. Once any engagement was over the Hurricane ditched and the pilot was recovered. Although swiftly made obsolete, their service record seems to have been quite good with only one pilot lost.

Andrew2
08-11-2014, 01:11 PM
Going back to the original question: The old man converted from Hawker Furys to Hurricanes as a front line unit, so biplanes to monos. The Spitfire was was less numerous mainly because Supermarine were pretty disorganised and were making a pigs ear of the development. Most of the enemy a/c bought down in the BoB were by Hurricanes, simply because there many more of them involved.

Nicholas Scheuer
08-11-2014, 02:48 PM
The Spitfire and the bubble canopy Mustang are both great in appearance. It comes down to whether one prefers squared off wings and tail surfaces. The radiator scope adds a interesting focal point to a fuselage that would otherwise merely look like a lot of others. Another great-looking ac, the Corsair wouldn't be half as interesting without the bent wings for a focal point.

wardd
08-11-2014, 03:01 PM
I have a preference for the cleaner look of the Spitfire, but the Mustang looks a lot better and quite muscular in its later versions.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/071024-F-1234S-008.jpg


which was better suited to the mission?

Nicholas Scheuer
08-11-2014, 03:23 PM
Just look at their length-of-time in service. The Mustang and Corsair both outlasted the Spitfire by a number of years, like well into the Korean Conflict..

WX
08-11-2014, 04:00 PM
Going back to the original question: The old man converted from Hawker Furys to Hurricanes as a front line unit, so biplanes to monos. The Spitfire was was less numerous mainly because Supermarine were pretty disorganised and were making a pigs ear of the development. Most of the enemy a/c bought down in the BoB were by Hurricanes, simply because there many more of them involved.

The Spitfire was also a more challenging aircraft to build than the Hurricane.

Clarkey
08-11-2014, 04:24 PM
Just look at their length-of-time in service. The Mustang and Corsair both outlasted the Spitfire by a number of years, like well into the Korean Conflict..

Well the Spitfire was an older design having flown 4 years earlier than either the Mustang or Corsair. It also flew in the Korean conflict (at least the carrier variant, the Seafire did).

AnalogKid
08-11-2014, 04:35 PM
Going back to the original question: The old man converted from Hawker Furys to Hurricanes as a front line unit, so biplanes to monos. The Spitfire was was less numerous mainly because Supermarine were pretty disorganised and were making a pigs ear of the development. Most of the enemy a/c bought down in the BoB were by Hurricanes, simply because there many more of them involved.

The Hurricane was a deliberately low-tech option as a stop-gap / fall-back specifically because of the complexity of making the Spitfire.

The Hurricane was basically a mono version of the Fury, the rear fuselage and tail assembly was virtually identical. The thick metal wing was designed to be easy to make. By contrast, the Spitfire has a very thin wing, thinner in terms of thickness / chord ration than the later-developed Mustang (which is why it could achieve a higher Mach number in a dive). The stressed aluminium monocoque fuselage and that thin wing were manufacturing challenges.

The Spitfire was always recognised as superior to the Hurricane but wasn't available in numbers at the start of the BoB. For the Battle of France, only Hurricane's were deployed by the RAF because the Spitfires were withheld for home defence. In the BoB, fighter control tried to allocate Hurricanes to take on the bombers and Spitfires to the fighter escorts. The higher no. of kills to the Hurricane were a combination of having easier targets and being represented in far greater numbers. That said, the Hurricane played an essential part in the BoB, but was pretty much obsolete by the time it was over. That thick wing limited its development potential as an all-out fighter. It did come in useful for fitting the 40mm gun for tank busting in the desert though.

Dave Hadfield
08-11-2014, 04:40 PM
I've flown the Hurricane and the Mustang, although not the Spitfire. We have those, plus a Corsair, in our Collection at Vintage Wings of Canada.

They all do different things at different rates. What the Spitfire shines at is low-speed, edge of the stall maneuvering, plus energy conservation. The Hurricane will do an amazingly short radius turn, but at the end of it, it's doing 120 kts. The Spit is doing 160 kts, and accelerates afterwards much more quickly. That's critical in a fight.

The Mustang doesn't roll all that fast, and stalls at a much higher speed with G on. But point it downhill and unload it, and it's gone. The Spit is similar, though not quite as much.

In formation, me in the P-40 or Hurri as #2, and Mustang in lead, if he (lead) starts descending with no power change, I will have to add a bucketful of power to keep up.

Dave

AnalogKid
08-11-2014, 04:43 PM
Dave,

All I can say is wow. You're a lucky man. I've seen the look on TV presenters' faces after a ride in the Grace 2-seat Spitfire, and a ride in a warbird is obviously a special thing to those who appreciate the history, so to get to pilot them must be incredible.

Andy.

Dave Hadfield
08-11-2014, 04:45 PM
But getting back to which monoplane was first in the RAF, in the 30s, the HP Heyford came earlier, and there were other weirdos like that.

Dave

Clarkey
08-11-2014, 04:52 PM
But getting back to which monoplane was first in the RAF, in the 30s, the HP Heyford came earlier, and there were other weirdos like that.

Dave

But the Heyford was a biplane?

Dave Hadfield
08-11-2014, 04:52 PM
Andy, yes it is. Wonderful indeed.

And we find out things about them that do not show up in books. Like when you deploy full flaps in a Hurri on final, and pull the power off, the tail is blanked and the nose drops. Alarmingly. The stick accomplishes nothing until you crack the throttle open again.

I'm getting a Lysander checkout next week BTW. Looking forward to that!

Dave

AnalogKid
08-11-2014, 04:54 PM
The RAF was formed on 1st April 1918.

A monoplane type that was in service previously with the Royal Flying Corps and continued in service with the RAF until the early 1920s was the Bristol M.1

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Bristol_M.1C_repro.jpg/1024px-Bristol_M.1C_repro.jpg

Dave Hadfield
08-11-2014, 04:54 PM
But the Heyford was a biplane?

Oh gosh, yes. I'm in China right now and google is censored. Sorry.

Anson? Airspeed aircraft?

Dave

Nicholas Scheuer
08-11-2014, 04:55 PM
Mustang was first with a laminar flow wing, which was an entirely new bucket of bolts re fight characteristics.

John B
08-11-2014, 04:57 PM
I often wondered why , if the spitfire wing was as wonderful as they said (and it looks), the later models were clipped wings. But I learnt from MR Google that they did that to improve roll rate.

John B
08-11-2014, 05:01 PM
Mustang was first with a laminar flow wing, which was an entirely new bucket of bolts re fight characteristics.

I always read that too, and yet other write ups I've read conclude that the difference was so minimal as to be practically worthless. That the real difference was that the high manufacturing standard of the mustang wing made the performance improvement.

Dave Hadfield
08-11-2014, 05:05 PM
Yes, the Spit does not have a high rate of roll. Once in a turn it can have a tight radius, and a slower energy bleed-off than other types, but the stick pressure is high and the roll response rate is not great.

The P-40 is a delight to roll. You can bury the stick into your leg with one hand, and when you do, something really happens!

dave

Lew Barrett
08-11-2014, 05:34 PM
which was better suited to the mission?

My photo is the version (E) that did a lot of the heavy lifting and was superior by far to the earliest Allison engined original that is the subject of Ian's photo. There are more differences than just the canopy and the motor, for instance the dorsal fin added for stability that morphs into the vertical stabilizer.

John B
08-11-2014, 05:56 PM
I must say ,its very handy having a warbirds pilot here giving us the hands on.:D

I was sitting watching some war program on TV on the weekend with my daughter beside me ( tolerating it) when a P40 flashed on the screen. " Those are what our air force mostly had, Tom has sat in one of those" ( her brother)

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/march%2009%20classics%20and%20warbiirds/4d43ad44.jpg (http://s227.photobucket.com/user/Waione_photos/media/march%2009%20classics%20and%20warbiirds/4d43ad44.jpg.html)

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/march%2009%20classics%20and%20warbiirds/a2770b85.jpg (http://s227.photobucket.com/user/Waione_photos/media/march%2009%20classics%20and%20warbiirds/a2770b85.jpg.html)



boggle eyes ensued.

Paul Pless
08-11-2014, 05:57 PM
Yup! Thank you very much Dave!

bahma
08-11-2014, 07:57 PM
The first fatality in a Spitfire, was a fatal ground loop by a test pilot in which the plane was destroyed. The radio antenna was thrust into the fusalge, the harness which was attached to the antenna housing, caused the pilot to be hung. This was the prototype K5054.....
See website Supermanrine Spitfire History Website and Forum

The Bigfella
08-11-2014, 09:05 PM
My photo is the version (E) that did a lot of the heavy lifting and was superior by far to the earliest Allison engined original that is the subject of Ian's photo. There are more differences than just the canopy and the motor, for instance the dorsal fin added for stability that morphs into the vertical stabilizer.

At the end of the war, half the Mustangs in service were still B & C models.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Fourth/ugly1_zps6e188742.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Fourth/ugly1_zps6e188742.jpg.html)

The Bigfella
08-12-2014, 12:21 AM
My photo is the version (E) that did a lot of the heavy lifting and was superior by far to the earliest Allison engined original that is the subject of Ian's photo. There are more differences than just the canopy and the motor, for instance the dorsal fin added for stability that morphs into the vertical stabilizer.

Lew, your photo of Shimmy IV is of a P-51D. I don't think there was an E model. The D was the largest production variant, with 8,102 made - but a lot of them never saw combat. They only started to appear about 9 or 10 months before the war ended in Europe. As mentioned earlier, half the Mustangs operating at the end of the war were still the early Merlin-engined B and C models.

The photo I posted in #20 was of a P-51B-1-NA of the 355th Fighter Squadron, stationed at RAF Greenham Common.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/354fg-p51b.jpg

It is worth noting some differences between the B and D models.

Both used the Packard Merlin V1650 engine, but by the time the D came about, it had 100hp more (1,590hp) than the B's 1,490hp. Sounds good? Yeah... but it'd gotten fatter (7,635 lb vs 7,010lb).... so the D was slower and climbed slower too. It even had a lower service ceiling, but the same range.

I still think that the P51 looks good. But looking good next to something (the Spitfire) that looks superlative is never the place to be.

Incidentally.... that scoop underneath was hated by a lot of the pilots. It meant that if you had to land with the gear up (a far too common event)... even on land, it would pitch the aircraft over its nose.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Fourth/ugly2_zpsd5489305.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Fourth/ugly2_zpsd5489305.jpg.html)

Meanwhile... here's an old Aussie warhorse

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Fourth/temora1_zps81f381e1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Fourth/temora1_zps81f381e1.jpg.html)

and again, with one of the hundreds of Tigermoths that were based at my home town during the war.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Fourth/temora_zps73c7415e.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Fourth/temora_zps73c7415e.jpg.html)

The Bigfella
08-12-2014, 12:25 AM
Speaking of the late Col Pay, as Gary was.... here he is.... a photo I took 9 years ago

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/colpay1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/colpay1.jpg.html)

... and a crappy shot of him taking off, in company with the Spit

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/ab3.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/ab3.jpg.html)

gilberj
08-12-2014, 12:46 AM
I believe the scoops on the Spitfire and the Hurricane were a real pain when ditching as well

Andrew2
08-12-2014, 01:01 AM
Talking about time in service, didn't the try a few turbine engined Mustangs in Vietnam?

And Dave Hadfield, did you know Bob Falls?

chas
08-12-2014, 01:07 AM
Somebody asked my father once what he thought of ditching in the Channel. His response was "...not habit forming". / Jim

Andrew2
08-12-2014, 01:10 AM
I believe the scoops on the Spitfire and the Hurricane were a real pain when ditching as well

More so the Spitfire for ditching. On the Dieppe raid, one stopped some rounds in the radiator and had to put down in the channel. The spray when the scoop hit tended to kick the tailplane up and shove the nose down, giving the pilot less chance of getting out. It was a problem discussed amoung the pilots and one idea was to kick the rudder hard as one hit, to try and skid on the dihedral. Not sure if any body got that one to work. The above case was Finucane, who was leading the group my father was in, after the spray settled, there was nothing to see and he went down with the a/c.

gilberj
08-12-2014, 01:17 AM
Somebody asked my father once what he thought of ditching in the Channel. His response was "...not habit forming". / Jim

Good one...thanks Jim...

The Bigfella
08-12-2014, 01:23 AM
More so the Spitfire for ditching. On the Dieppe raid, one stopped some rounds in the radiator and had to put down in the channel. The spray when the scoop hit tended to kick the tailplane up and shove the nose down, giving the pilot less chance of getting out. It was a problem discussed amoung the pilots and one idea was to kick the rudder hard as one hit, to try and skid on the dihedral. Not sure if any body got that one to work. The above case was Finucane, who was leading the group my father was in, after the spray settled, there was nothing to see and he went down with the a/c.

My father was in a POW camp in Austria when the Dieppe raid went down. I've got a photo somewhere of the restricted rations all the POWs were put on after the raid. The Germans were not amused.

edit. found it.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/pow2.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/pow2.jpg.html)

Tom Hunter
08-13-2014, 08:20 PM
@Ian,
I’ve got a copy of the stat abstract of WWII around if you like I can post the figures from it.
The relationship between the loss statistics and the training programs of the various combatants is interesting. In 1944 and 45 the average American pilot went on his first combat mission with much more training than the average German. A bad American pilot (who met the minimum standard) would be much better than a bad German.
The result was the Americans gutted the Luftwaffe in a matter of about a week during Big Week.
On the Eastern front the Germans kept experienced pilots in action and the Russians pushed many new pilots into action, and the odds slowly changed in the Russian favor, but at great loss.
Thoughts?

The Bigfella
08-13-2014, 08:46 PM
That would be great, thanks Tom.

I was looking at some month by month stats of the war in the Pacific a while back. There's some lumpy months in there too. Three months stand out - June '44, Oct '44 and April '45. They resulted in almost a third of all air victories for the US in the PTO. (29% of victories for 7% elapsed of the total duration)

Dannybb55
08-13-2014, 08:59 PM
The Mustang does have the angles, Ed liked this better than expensive curves. Those elliptical wings were not worth the trouble. The Heinkels, Republics, Supermarines, and Reggianes were outnumbered by their straight wing cousins.

Lew Barrett
08-13-2014, 09:02 PM
I stand corrected in almost all points, although there was an "E" Model, (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51_Variants.html) though it was not consequential. The only thing I can say that was of value in my post would be to transcribe the differences from "E" to "D." I'd like to be able to take umbrage in that but I can't as my photo is of a "D" as you point out.

I should know better to keep my noise where it belongs so lets open a discussion on truly beautiful aircraft: high performance sailplanes, something I have actual experience with.

http://www.modelflight.regheath.com/mf073/images/stemmefullsize2.jpg

The Bigfella
08-13-2014, 09:57 PM
I'm somewhat limited in my experience of the whispering thingies. I've had my hands on the controls of a Blanik a few times.... a long time ago. I tend to be a tad heavy for them now.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/PSU_Blanik.JPG

WX
08-14-2014, 12:50 AM
Somebody asked my father once what he thought of ditching in the Channel. His response was "...not habit forming". / Jim

Slightly off topic but the B24 Liberator was a bad aircraft to ditch as well with those roller door bomb bays.

The Bigfella
08-14-2014, 01:31 AM
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Fourth/HigginsA1droppedtoB17_zpsc967ff4b.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Fourth/HigginsA1droppedtoB17_zpsc967ff4b.jpg.html)

edit - re-posted to host it

Clarkey
08-14-2014, 01:39 AM
I stand corrected in almost all points, although there was an "E" Model, (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51_Variants.html) though it was not consequential. The only thing I can say that was of value in my post would be to transcribe the differences from "E" to "D." I'd like to be able to take umbrage in that but I can't as my photo is of a "D" as you point out.

I should know better to keep my noise where it belongs so lets open a discussion on truly beautiful aircraft: high performance sailplanes, something I have actual experience with.

http://www.modelflight.regheath.com/mf073/images/stemmefullsize2.jpg

Oh yes indeed (but the one in the picture has a motor and it is running). A definite lottery win buy.

WX
08-14-2014, 01:58 AM
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/ww2-general/265098d1402880499-picture-day-large-1-.jpg

Lost for words Bigfella?:D

The Bigfella
08-14-2014, 02:01 AM
Lost for words Bigfella?:D

I thought it spoke for itself. Nice shot eh?

I did say the Higgins boats saved a lot of lives.

WX
08-14-2014, 02:10 AM
I thought it spoke for itself. Nice shot eh?

I did say the Higgins boats saved a lot of lives.

It hasn't displayed for me for some reason, I just thought you forgot to type something.:D

The Bigfella
08-14-2014, 02:14 AM
Here's a B-17 fitted out with a Higgins A-1

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Boeing_SB-17G_of_the_5th_Rescue_Squadron%2C_Flight_D.jpg

The Bigfella
08-14-2014, 02:20 AM
It hasn't displayed for me for some reason, I just thought you forgot to type something.:D

Go back for another look. I just replaced the image. I'm hosting it now.

The Bigfella
08-14-2014, 02:25 AM
Gary, can you see this one?

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h79/janswede/Aviation/Mosquitos-MarkhamUK_zpslszfxazx.jpg

Gerarddm
08-14-2014, 02:46 AM
Isn't #112 one of those Uffa Fox rescue dinghys?

The Bigfella
08-14-2014, 02:57 AM
Isn't #112 one of those Uffa Fox rescue dinghys?

I thought it was a Higgins A-1.... but it might be

The Uffa Fox one was 31' long

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Vickers_Warwick.jpg

Lew Barrett
08-14-2014, 10:01 AM
I'm somewhat limited in my experience of the whispering thingies. I've had my hands on the controls of a Blanik a few times.... a long time ago. I tend to be a tad heavy for them now.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/PSU_Blanik.JPG
The Blanik is one of the most durable and sturdy gliders going. It can take you, pal! It's a very easy to fly glider that can handle a relatively substantial payload.

The Bigfella
08-21-2014, 02:22 AM
Here's a good one

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5V8BTueAq7c/S7k7YWApD9I/AAAAAAAAAx8/xUtnjs8r3NA/s1600/Peart+print+crop.jpg

That's Alan Peart DFC in action over Burma. Having a bit of a toush (http://aircrewbookreview.blogspot.com.au/2010/04/alan-peart-in-action-new-spitfire-print.html) with 20 Oscars by himself (the other guy on his side, William Whitamore DFC, another ace and also in a Spit was killed in this action).

He's about to go up in a Spitfire again on 28 Sept as a passenger.

One of very few remaining Kiwi WW2 aces.

WX
08-21-2014, 04:54 AM
Gary, can you see this one?

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h79/janswede/Aviation/Mosquitos-MarkhamUK_zpslszfxazx.jpg

Yep no worries.

WX
08-21-2014, 04:55 AM
Here's a B-17 fitted out with a Higgins A-1

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Boeing_SB-17G_of_the_5th_Rescue_Squadron%2C_Flight_D.jpg

I have a photo of one of them my father took on Morotai.

WX
08-21-2014, 05:00 AM
Here's a good one

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5V8BTueAq7c/S7k7YWApD9I/AAAAAAAAAx8/xUtnjs8r3NA/s1600/Peart+print+crop.jpg

That's Alan Peart DFC in action over Burma. Having a bit of a toush (http://aircrewbookreview.blogspot.com.au/2010/04/alan-peart-in-action-new-spitfire-print.html) with 20 Oscars by himself (the other guy on his side, William Whitamore DFC, another ace and also in a Spit was killed in this action).

He's about to go up in a Spitfire again on 28 Sept as a passenger.

One of very few remaining Kiwi WW2 aces.

Note no red centre to the roundel, there was a very reason for that. Anyone care to guess?:-)

The Bigfella
08-21-2014, 06:32 AM
Note no red centre to the roundel, there was a very reason for that. Anyone care to guess?:-)

Lotsa farmboys around that shot at any red dot they saw

wardd
08-21-2014, 10:41 AM
Talking about time in service, didn't the try a few turbine engined Mustangs in Vietnam?

And Dave Hadfield, did you know Bob Falls?

there was an outfit many years ago that was reengining 51s for the civil and business market with turbines and tried to interest the military in them for coin operations