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David G
08-08-2014, 10:31 AM
Proving that racism lives hardens racist attitudes? Aren't we humans just something else???

​​http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/08/racial_bias_in_criminal_justice_whites_don_t_want_ to_reform_laws_that_harm.html

hanleyclifford
08-08-2014, 12:03 PM
Proving that racism lives hardens racist attitudes? Aren't we humans just something else???

​​http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/08/racial_bias_in_criminal_justice_whites_don_t_want_ to_reform_laws_that_harm.html I am always amused by the atheist/agnostic take on racism especially in light of the promotion of it by the theory of evolution so beloved of the intelligentsia; but when a person comes to understand that all humans are related, descended from the man Noah thru his three sons, racism evaporates from the mind and even becomes comical.

David G
08-08-2014, 12:16 PM
hc,

I raise a glass... and make a joyful noise... to celebrate the notion that you have no trace of racism left yourself... as unlikely as that may be.

And I wish racism around that racism would disappear from the world this very day... including that which likely lingers within you - apparently unbeknownst to you.

hanleyclifford
08-08-2014, 12:22 PM
hc,

I raise a glass... and make a joyful noise... to celebrate the notion that you have no trace of racism left yourself... as unlikely as that may be.

And I wish racism around that racism would disappear from the world this very day... including that which likely lingers within you - apparently unbeknownst to you. What lingers in me is a strong dose of imperfection. Look in the mirror and you'll see what I mean. Racism is really just a subset of discord - the opposite of love.

Waddie
08-08-2014, 12:47 PM
I think the media has a lot to do with these attitudes. The constant barrage of black crime featured on the nightly news reinforces whatever stereotypes already exist, and the media plays on that because it means better ratings. So much so that young black males even accept the stereotype. (If the world thinks you're a gangster, be a gangster). BTW: many, perhaps most, middle class blacks also fear this group. So you have a self-fulfilling prophecy; a feedback loop where young black men categorize themselves as criminals and reject doing the things that aspiring middle class kids do as "acting white". However, so as not to generalize, there are lots of young black men who do overcome this media driven character assassination and manage to build productive lives. I've always said that if I ever was to raise a young black boy I would never let him watch the news. I would rather he develop a positive self-image.

regards,
Waddie

David G
08-08-2014, 12:53 PM
What lingers in me is a strong dose of imperfection. Look in the mirror and you'll see what I mean. Racism is really just a subset of discord - the opposite of love.

Agreed. And, yes, the mirror is not always kind - esp. if one endeavors to use it fearlessly.

hanleyclifford
08-08-2014, 12:57 PM
I think the media has a lot to do with these attitudes. The constant barrage of black crime featured on the nightly news reinforces whatever stereotypes already exist, and the media plays on that because it means better ratings. So much so that young black males even accept the stereotype. (If the world thinks you're a gangster, be a gangster). BTW: many, perhaps most, middle class blacks also fear this group. So you have a self-fulfilling prophecy; a feedback loop where young black men categorize themselves as criminals and reject doing the things that aspiring middle class kids do as "acting white". However, so as not to generalize, there are lots of young black men who do overcome this media driven character assassination and manage to build productive lives. I've always said that if I ever was to raise a young black boy I would never let him watch the news. I would rather he develop a positive self-image.

regards,
Waddie Stereotyping, profiling, prejudice - not to be confused with racism which is a specific form of bigotry. (the most loosely used and ill-defined of the lot)

Waddie
08-08-2014, 01:03 PM
Stereotyping, profiling, prejudice - not to be confused with racism which is a specific form of bigotry. (the most loosely used and ill-defined of the lot)

Are not stereotyping, profiling and prejudice expressions of racism, and therefore racist?

regards,
Waddie

David G
08-08-2014, 01:06 PM
An interesting take on the boundaries of public discourse. From a sports context... but still, I think, apropos --

http://www.blazersedge.com/2014/8/8/5981755/asian-players-nba-jeremy-lin-racism

hanleyclifford
08-08-2014, 01:13 PM
Are not stereotyping, profiling and prejudice expressions of racism, and therefore racist?

regards,
Waddie Not to me. Racism is the sincerely held belief that one branch of the human family is "superior" to another. See "SS Race Theory and Mate Selection".

Peerie Maa
08-08-2014, 01:31 PM
Not to me. Racism is the sincerely held belief that one branch of the human family is "superior" to another. See "SS Race Theory and Mate Selection".

Hanly
That may be your take on it but for most others it is the prejudice that (enter race of your choice) are lazy/criminal/disease ridden/terrorists (select paranoia of your choice) is how racism manifests.

Waddie
08-08-2014, 01:51 PM
An interesting take on the boundaries of public discourse. From a sports context... but still, I think, apropos --

http://www.blazersedge.com/2014/8/8/5981755/asian-players-nba-jeremy-lin-racism

I read the article and it just reinforces my belief that the media is a primary force in maintaining steroetypes; often in sports they are promoted almost subliminally. A white athlete like Larry Bird would be praised for his intensive work ethic while a Michael Jordan would be commented upon for his great natural talent. That is a subtle but important distinction. In the real world, both had to have a lot of natural talent and both had to work hard to develop it. In football you will often hear a white quarterback praised for his smart decision making while a black quarterback will be praised for his great athleticism. Again, subtle but different.

regards,
Waddie

Waddie
08-08-2014, 01:55 PM
What lingers in me is a strong dose of imperfection. Look in the mirror and you'll see what I mean. Racism is really just a subset of discord - the opposite of love.

Racism is a form of hate. Hate isn't the opposite of love; apathy is.

regards,
Waddie

Lew Barrett
08-08-2014, 01:56 PM
I have of late equated going from the particular (that ________ is untrustworthy, lazy, greedy) to the general (therefore all ______ are likely to be untrustworthy, lazy, greedy) as a most common form of prejudice. Prejudice literally; to harbor a preconceived notion not based in fact. When expressed as an action, prejudice becomes profiling, segregation, violence, all nothing more than manifestations of racism.

As Waddie and Nick have said before me, do not profiling, prejudice and stereotyping simply represent outward displays of racism, which is really nothing more than a thought (one hesitates to call it an idea) when expressed in deeds might reveal itself as profiling and stereotyping?

You're treading on very lines with your distinctions, Hanley.

jpb54
08-08-2014, 03:37 PM
I am always amused by the atheist/agnostic take on racism especially in light of the promotion of it by the theory of evolution so beloved of the intelligentsia; but when a person comes to understand that all humans are related, descended from the man Noah thru his three sons, racism evaporates from the mind and even becomes comical.


This has to be one of the silliest things I have read in the bilge to date .

Glen Longino
08-08-2014, 03:43 PM
This has to be one of the silliest things I have read in the bilge to date .

Agreed!
I wondered if someone was going to mention it before I had to!:)
"Noah, thru his three sons", indeed!

Peerie Maa
08-08-2014, 04:20 PM
This has to be one of the silliest things I have read in the bilge to date .

Well if it means that Hanley consciously resists any tendency to racism it works for me.

I don't care what peoples motivation or rationalisation for good behaviour might be as long as they do good.

bobbys
08-08-2014, 05:02 PM
Agreed!
I wondered if someone was going to mention it before I had to!:)
"Noah, thru his three sons", indeed!.

well take the task on of proving him wrong..

But foist go girdle yer lions.

bobbys
08-08-2014, 05:03 PM
This has to be one of the silliest things I have read in the bilge to date ..

I have some pretty silly things.

Wadda yams I chopped liver?

epoxyboy
08-08-2014, 06:43 PM
I think the media has a lot to do with these attitudes. The constant barrage of black crime featured on the nightly news reinforces whatever stereotypes already exist, and the media plays on that because it means better ratings. So much so that young black males even accept the stereotype. (If the world thinks you're a gangster, be a gangster). BTW: many, perhaps most, middle class blacks also fear this group. So you have a self-fulfilling prophecy; a feedback loop where young black men categorize themselves as criminals and reject doing the things that aspiring middle class kids do as "acting white". However, so as not to generalize, there are lots of young black men who do overcome this media driven character assassination and manage to build productive lives. I've always said that if I ever was to raise a young black boy I would never let him watch the news. I would rather he develop a positive self-image.

regards,
Waddie
To counter this, my experience a couple of weeks ago on an oil rig support platform in the middle of the gulf was that almost every single "housekeeping" job was undertaken by young black males. The safety regulations on board forbade locking cabin doors (and in any case, you didnt get a key), so you just had to trust that anything of value remained unmolested. There were any number of guys cleaning, replacing linen etc going into cabins, rolling around the clock with shift changes - in the time I was there, I didnt hear a single comment about stuff going missing. I'm sure it does from time to time, but that wasnt the prevalent culture out there. That, and in reality, middle age white guys were the minority amoungst black, hispanic and phillipino workers. So what does that say about the work ethic of young white southern males?

Pete

purri
08-08-2014, 08:15 PM
Job snobs?

Gray-Sea
08-09-2014, 01:46 PM
Are not stereotyping, profiling and prejudice expressions of racism, and therefore racist?



Criminal profiling is devoid of emotion and is therefore legitimate, and not racist. Race may play a factor in it's effective use as a criminological tool.

"Hey there's a white guy, I'll pull him over."
- problematic

"Hey there's a white guy from Richville in the hood at 3am and he circled the block three times, I think I'll stop him."
- good patrol work

Particularized reasonable suspicion is just that...reasonable.

Well well would ya look at that...Honky McCracker says he's looking for RayRay the recreational pharmaceutical dealer...looks like a perfectly legitimate investigative detention.

CK 17
08-09-2014, 02:18 PM
This has to be one of the silliest things I have read in the bilge to date . no sillier than getting pregnant without having sex. . .

Waddie
08-09-2014, 02:46 PM
"Hey there's a white guy, I'll pull him over."
- problematic

"Hey there's a white guy from Richville in the hood at 3am and he circled the block three times, I think I'll stop him."
- good patrol work


The first example is racial profiling.

The second example exhibits "probable cause" and has nothing to do with racial profiling.

regards,
Waddie

Reynard38
08-09-2014, 03:14 PM
To counter this, my experience a couple of weeks ago on an oil rig support platform in the middle of the gulf was that almost every single "housekeeping" job was undertaken by young black males. The safety regulations on board forbade locking cabin doors (and in any case, you didnt get a key), so you just had to trust that anything of value remained unmolested. There were any number of guys cleaning, replacing linen etc going into cabins, rolling around the clock with shift changes - in the time I was there, I didnt hear a single comment about stuff going missing. I'm sure it does from time to time, but that wasnt the prevalent culture out there. That, and in reality, middle age white guys were the minority amoungst black, hispanic and phillipino workers. So what does that say about the work ethic of young white southern males?

Pete

That they don't want to work on an oil rig?
Nice try, but I work with a lot of hard working, southern white males.
I doubt any of them would want to work on an oil rig either.

David G
08-10-2014, 11:17 PM
Civil Rights being eroded at the local level? Long article, but quite illuminating --

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119019/civil-rights-movement-going-reverse-alabama

AndyG
08-11-2014, 03:34 AM
Race may play a factor in it's effective use as a criminological tool.

Gray-Sea, would you mind taking a moment and defining what you mean by the word "race" in that sentence?

Andy

David G
08-13-2014, 07:43 PM
Distractions --

http://www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/08/things-stop-distracted-black-person-gets-murdered-police/


08/12/14
http://i2.wp.com/www.blackgirldangerous.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/mike-brown.jpg?resize=224%2C300 (http://i2.wp.com/www.blackgirldangerous.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/mike-brown.jpg)Mike Brown


by Mia McKenzie
A Black person is murdered by cops, security guards or self-appointed vigilantes every 28 hours in the U.S (http://www.occupy.com/article/black-man-killed-us-every-28-hours-police). The killing of an unarmed Black teenager named Mike Brown (http://colorlines.com/archives/2014/08/michael_brown_st_louis.html) in Ferguson, MO, which has resulted in protests in that town and harsh police push-back and brutality against even more of its citizens, and which, via social media, has gotten the attention of people around the world, probably isn’t even the latest occurrence, at just three days old.
Talking to people on Twitter about Mike Brown and what’s happening in Ferguson right now, I’ve noticed (again) how easily folks get distracted when Black people are murdered by the police. It seems as though every detail is more interesting, more important, more significant—including looting of a Walmart in Ferguson, which a local Fox news station focused its entire coverage on—than the actual life that was taken by police.

David G
08-13-2014, 07:59 PM
And... in our neighbor city to the North --

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/08/13/black_bystander_maced_seattle_pro_palestine_protes t_turns_weird_ugly.html?wpsrc=fol_tw


An unarmed black bystander was maced near a pro-Palestine protest at Seattle's Westlake Mall this past Saturday after a strange confrontation with a belligerent, shirtless white man. The bystander, 25-year-old Raymond Wilford, encountered the shirtless man outside the mall. According to witnesses, the latter individual was already on the scene and had been using racial slurs while confronting pro-Palestinian protestors. In images captured by photographer Alex Garland, the shirtless man can be seen moving toward and then squaring off with Wilford. (No punches were thrown by either of them, and a report by the Seattle Police Department says the shirtless man instigated the confrontation.) That's when a mall guard stepped in, looked past the shirtless individual, maced Wilford, and took him into custody.

David G
08-13-2014, 10:39 PM
From our friends at Fox --

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/08/13/bill-oreillys-moral-instruction-for-black-peopl/200425


Salon's Joan Walsh aptly described (http://www.salon.com/2014/08/13/bill_o%E2%80%99reillys_ferguson_disgrace_host_spew s_sick_lecture_to_michael_browns_family/) how O'Reilly's response exposes his program as a "cable news show that sometimes doubles as an hour of moral instruction for black people." As Walsh explained, it was a lecture that smacked of "creepy paternalism," and one that "provides a window onto the worldview of aging authoritarian white conservatives." It's also a lecture O'Reilly has perfected (http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/08/04/bill-oreillys-attacks-on-black-culture/200300).

The Fox host frequently attacks the black community for problems that, according to him, specifically plague black culture. He's staunchly denied (http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/07/16/oreilly-dismisses-overrepresentation-of-blacks/194894) the existence of racial disparities in arrest and conviction rates across the country, often attributing (http://mediamatters.org/video/2014/07/29/oreilly-on-racial-profiling-of-drug-offenders-i/200249) African Americans' over-representation in the nation's prison systems to "the culture" in "ghetto neighborhoods." (http://mediamatters.org/video/2014/07/28/oreilly-in-certain-ghetto-neighborhoods-its-par/200231) "The culture" is also to blame (http://mediamatters.org/video/2014/01/30/bill-oreilly-the-culture-is-partially-to-blame/197852) for disproportionate poverty in the black community. O'Reilly's "solutions (http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/08/04/bill-oreillys-attacks-on-black-culture/200300)" often involve blaming black families and "young black girls" who became pregnant outside of marriage.


As evidenced by his response to Brown's death, even tragedies aren't off-limits. O'Reilly similarly argued that Trayvon Martin was killed because he looked "how gangstas look (http://mediamatters.org/video/2013/09/13/oreilly-trayvon-martin-died-because-he-looked-h/195882)."


In late July, his offensive rhetoric prompted Color of Change (http://www.colorofchange.org/campaign/bill-oreilly-marijuana/) to launch a campaign calling on O'Reilly to apologize. According to the advocacy group, "Bill O'Reilly must be held accountable for the dissemination of these harmful mistruths about Black communities."

Waddie
08-13-2014, 11:55 PM
America is a racist country, though I haven't known very many people who are racist. I do know liberals who make excuses for blacks which smacks of low expectations, and I know conservatives who think it's none of their concern because it's a "black" problem.

But I will tell you this; if one out of five young white males were in jail, on paper, or in the system, and the unemployment rate was over 50%, and almost half of them graduated reading at a grade school level there would be a revolution in this country. NO politician would be safe from the voter's rage. And things would get done, changes made to our schools, police forces, prisons, and all of the changes might not be successful. But a few failures wouldn't deter us from spending WHATEVER it took to make the changes we would DEMAND. The sh!t would hit the fan..................

The opposite of love isn't hate; it's apathy, and sometimes the worst racism is just plain apathy. Even Obama is guilty of it.


regards,
Waddie

Peerie Maa
08-14-2014, 11:52 AM
Not to split hairs, it is the silliest thing he's said lately, but, catch the bit about evolution being loved by the intelligencia. Can't exactly call some of my evolution believing friends the intelligencia. Donn, spellcheck me please.


in·tel·li·gent·sia noun \in-ˌte-lə-ˈjen(t)-sē-ə, -ˈgen(t)-\ : a group of intelligent and well-educated people who guide or try to guide the political, artistic, or social development of their society



That's OK, not all of the intelligent and well educated can be leaders and educators. You should not hold that against your friends. ;)

hanleyclifford
08-14-2014, 11:58 AM
Not to split hairs, it is the silliest thing he's said lately, but, catch the bit about evolution being loved by the intelligencia. Can't exactly call some of my evolution believing friends the intelligencia. Donn, spellcheck me please. Yeah, I wouldn't call them that either.

Peerie Maa
08-14-2014, 12:04 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't call them that either.

Ohh, goody, thread drift.

Whats it to be?
Creationism?
Young Earthers?
God of the Gaps?
Intelligent Design?

Ian McColgin
08-14-2014, 12:34 PM
How about racism?

The essay, grabbing bits from two studies and some headlines, has a two-part point:

With our criminal justice system disporportionatly targeting people of color, racial feelings profoundly color how people look at options in criminal justice; and
Bluntly confronting the racism embedded in those feelings can make the conversation about systemic efforts less productive.

We have affirmative action plans to employ more minority people, but we will never have an affirmative action plan for incarcerating more white guys.

The essay seems to be saying that while all of us working on our personal racism is a good thing, we might more effectivly diminish the racism of our criminal justice system by just dealing with justice and not belaboring the profound need for racial justice.

Peerie Maa
08-14-2014, 12:40 PM
How about racism?

The essay, grabbing bits from two studies and some headlines, has a two-part point:

With our criminal justice system disporportionatly targeting people of color, racial feelings profoundly color how people look at options in criminal justice; and
Bluntly confronting the racism embedded in those feelings can make the conversation about systemic efforts less productive.

We have affirmative action plans to employ more minority people, but we will never have an affirmative action plan for incarcerating more white guys.

The essay seems to be saying that while all of us working on our personal racism is a good thing, we might more effectivly diminish the racism of our criminal justice system by just dealing with justice and not belaboring the profound need for racial justice.

The UK had to face up to institutional racism in our police a few years ago. We have policies in place to try to effect change in our policing, but it may take longer than it should in some cities.

Waddie
08-14-2014, 12:53 PM
Ian McColgin; We have affirmative action plans to employ more minority people, but we will never have an affirmative action plan for incarcerating more white guys.

Though I consider our lack of action to realize that the black community is in crisis, it seems reasonable to me that there would be a disproportionate number of crimes committed by young black men as a result of their existence in such a desperately depressed environment. No hope usually results in much more crime. So while there probably is a higher incarceration rate due in part to policing tactics it is more likely the lack of competent legal representation. And even factoring that in, the incarceration rate would still be expected to be much higher due to the environment in which they live. I don't think the incarceration rate is out of proportion, it is a symptom of the inaction on the part of the general political system to address the problems in the black community.

regards,
Waddie

Ian McColgin
08-14-2014, 01:07 PM
I am sure that Waddie is at least in part correct - A great deal of the black experience seems to be a systemic law enforcement effort to socialize young black people into criminal behaviors. But we also have numerous studies stretching back over many years showing that for the same crimes, blacks draw harshers sentences.

Peerie Maa
08-14-2014, 01:31 PM
Whilst searching for data on the British system for comparison, I stumbled upon this:

Abstract



Using data compiled by the United States Sentencing Commission, we examine the independent and joint effects of race/ethnicity, gender, and age on sentencing decisions in U.S. federal courts. We find that Hispanics and blacks, males, and younger defendants receive harsher sentences than whites, females, and older defendants after controlling for important legal and contextual factors. When these effects are examined in combination, young Hispanic male defendants have the highest odds of incarceration and young black male defendants receive the longest sentences. The findings show considerable variation in the sentencing outcomes of defendants depending on their relative social‐structural position in society, and that particularly harsh punishments are focused disproportionately on the youngest Hispanic and black male defendants. Our results reinforce the idea that researchers need to consider the combined impact of multiple defendant statuses on sentencing outcomes because joint effects are considerably larger than the effects of any one defendant characteristic.

from http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418820902926197

I then found this: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/race-and-the-criminal-justice-system--3

Per 1,000 population, higher rates of s1 Stop and Searches were recorded for all BME groups (except for Chinese or Other) than for the White group. While there were decreases across the last five years in the overall number of arrests and in arrests of White people, arrests of those in the Black and Asian group increased.


Per 1,000 of the population, Black persons were Stopped and Searched 7.0 times more than White people in 2009/10 compared to 6.0 times more in 2006/07.
When referring to the rate per 1,000 population for England and Wales, it is important to bear in mind that the higher rate than that obtained for the rest of England and Wales(excluding the Metropolitan Police Service) is the product of the aggregation of 42 police force areas (PFAs), each with different distributions of both ethnic population and use of Stop and Search powers. While the area served by the Metropolitan Police Service accounts for 14% of the England and Wales population, 43% of s1 Stop and Searches are carried out by the Metropolitan Police Service.
Across England and Wales, there was a decrease (just over 3%) in the total number of arrests in 2009/10 (1,386,030) compared to 2005/06 (1,429,785). While the number of arrests for the White group also decreased during this period, arrests of Black persons rose by 5% and arrests of Asian people by 13%.
Overall, there were more arrests per 1,000 population of each BME group (except for Chinese or Other) than for people of White ethnicity in 2009/10. Black persons were arrested 3.3 times more than White people, and those from the Mixed ethnic group 2.3 times more.
In 2009/10, just over 9% of s1 Stop and Searches compared with 12%, 4% and 1% respectively in 2006/07.



Data on out of court disposals and court proceedings show some differences in the sanctions issued to people of differing ethnicity and also in sentence lengths. These differences are likely to relate to a range of factors including variations in the types of offences committed and the plea entered, and should therefore be treated with caution. Key points:


Conviction ratios for indictable offences were higher for White persons in 2010 than for those in the Black and Asian groups (81% for White, 74% for Black, and 77% for Asian).
A higher percentage of those in the BME groups were sentenced to immediate custody for indictable offences than in the White group in 2010 (White 23%, Black 27%, Asian 29% and Other 42%). This may in part be due to differences in plea between ethnic groups.
In 2010, the highest average custodial sentence length (ACSL) for those given determinate sentences for indictable offences was recorded for the Black ethnic group, at 20.8 months, followed by the Asian and Other groups with averages of 19.9 months and 19.7 months respectively. The lowest ACSL was recorded for the White group at 14.9 months.



The ethnic distribution of those under supervision and in prison has remained relatively stable over the last five years. In terms of prisoners’ behaviour in custody, individuals from the White ethnic group continue to account for the vast majority of self-inflicted deaths and self-harm incidents in prison. Key points:


On 30 June 2010, the total prison population in England and Wales was 85,002. Of these, 21,878 prisoners (just under 26%) were from BME groups. This proportion is consistent with that recorded from 2006 to 2009 (when it was between 26%-27%).



This compares to the population ratio of 86% white to other ethnicity.

Waddie
08-14-2014, 10:50 PM
I am sure that Waddie is at least in part correct - A great deal of the black experience seems to be a systemic law enforcement effort to socialize young black people into criminal behaviors. But we also have numerous studies stretching back over many years showing that for the same crimes, blacks draw harshers sentences.

It's the media and pop culture that does most of the negative socializing, not the police. The police are just as socialized by the media as both white and black citizens. Every night another news story featuring black crime. The music industry reinforces all that is wrong with black subculture. I'm amazed that so many black kids turn out so well; there must be some terrific black parenting going on out there somewhere.

Longer prison terms goes back to the quality of representation. A court appointed attorney gets paid the same regardless of the disposition of the case, so theres little incentive to fight very hard for your "client'. An independent attorney - the one you pay for out of pocket, needs to win cases or at least show that they can get their clients shorter sentences, or they won't get work. A WORLD of difference.

But mainly I think this focus on policing, while some reform is needed, distracts from the larger issue that there is a real crisis in the black community. Yes, they are committing crimes in much greater proportion than their percentage of the population. If this were white youths committing crimes at this high rate there would be a firestorm of demands that public and private action be taken. So we need to accept the idea that blacks commit crimes at an alarming rate, (mostly black on black), and ask ourselves how we would react if white kids were committing crimes at such a high rate. We know the answer; no amount of money and time would be too much to address the issue. Politicians would be falling all over themselves, liberal and conservative, to find an answer if the color of these kids were white. There would be jobs programs, school reform, sports leagues, music camps, and anything else we could think of that would help. And we would demand a reform of the police and justice system.

So let's get over the red herring that there are some bad cops out there; that's always been the case. Do something about it, it's the cheapest first step. But unless we start thinking of black kids a part of "us", and not just a "black" problem, we won't ever really reduce the number of black men in prison. Just pretend they are your white kids.

regards,
Waddie

Peerie Maa
08-15-2014, 03:37 AM
Longer prison terms goes back to the quality of representation. A court appointed attorney gets paid the same regardless of the disposition of the case, so theres little incentive to fight very hard for your "client'. An independent attorney - the one you pay for out of pocket, needs to win cases or at least show that they can get their clients shorter sentences, or they won't get work. A WORLD of difference.



regards,
Waddie

I have a problem with this if it is accurate. It suggests a lower level of ethics amongst the attorneys who are appointed. Is there evidence for their being low achievers? Secondly it is not the attorney who sets the prison term, the judge or magistrate is the one showing bias in the sentencing having heard the facts.

David G
08-15-2014, 09:43 AM
Nick - Waddie has a point. NO... I don't mean the one at the tip of his bean. He has a point about incentives. Public defenders have less of an incentive to perform with excellence. In fact, their caseloads are often so heavy as to preclude doing so. That doesn't mean that it's universally true, but it is substantially true. Bad system, yes. Another example of allowing 'starve government' thinking to squinmch things down to the point where we're following (barely) the letter of the law... but not the intent to provide representation to the indigent. The annals, unfortunately, are stuffed with tales of bad representation leading to plea deals where innocent folks serve prison terms because their lawyer advised them - nay, pushed them hard - to accept a plea bargain. Because the lawyer really didn't have time to put on a defense in court.

Peerie Maa
08-15-2014, 09:52 AM
^ that is depressing.

David G
08-15-2014, 10:38 AM
^ that is depressing.

No chit. The criminal justice system here in the U.S. has degenerated to the point of being barely functional and serving the interests of nearly no one. If we can get health care sorted... I see it as a huge area ripe for restructuring and reform.

Waddie
08-15-2014, 02:35 PM
Nick - Waddie has a point. NO... I don't mean the one at the tip of his bean. He has a point about incentives. Public defenders have less of an incentive to perform with excellence. In fact, their caseloads are often so heavy as to preclude doing so. That doesn't mean that it's universally true, but it is substantially true. Bad system, yes. Another example of allowing 'starve government' thinking to squinmch things down to the point where we're following (barely) the letter of the law... but not the intent to provide representation to the indigent. The annals, unfortunately, are stuffed with tales of bad representation leading to plea deals where innocent folks serve prison terms because their lawyer advised them - nay, pushed them hard - to accept a plea bargain. Because the lawyer really didn't have time to put on a defense in court.

I would characterize the problem somewhat differently. Anyone accused of a crime goes up against a pretty formidable machine. They will face a team of prosecutors who will build a case against them, and who will be very familiar with the judge assigned to the case, and they will have access to ballistics experts, a number if investigators gathering evidence (detectives) who usually aren't looking for evidence that exonerates the accused, and the funds to call upon any number of expert witnesses, all working to convict the accused of a crime. They have the time and resources to make any defense difficult, especially if that defense is dependent on a court appointed attorney.

If the accused doesn't have the money to hire an attorney, and is dependent on court appointed counsel, that counsel probably won't be very experienced, (many that I saw were just out of law school), and will not be able to afford the investigators and other experts that could counter the prosecution. Rather than being overburdened, most of these court appointed attorneys are not the best quality, weren't hired by reputable law firms, and take these low paying court appointed attorney jobs as a way to make ends meet. Even in locations that have an actual public defenders office, the attorneys there are usually outmatched by their opponents and often fail to put up a competent defense, and lack those aforementioned resources, so essential to a good defense.

Usually the court appointed attorney gets paid the same regardless of the outcome of the case, so there is little incentive to fight hard for the "client". In fact, the quicker the case can be disposed the more cases that attorney can take on and the more money they can make from the government, who pays a fixed amount per case. This typically leads to plea bargains or guilty pleas, even when there is a good possibility that the defense could be successful. However, to a hired attorney plea bargains and guilty pleas are a last resort, and are usually only employed to achieve a reduced sentence.

So essentially what we have is a two track justice system. One system where the accused does have a hope of justice prevailing and another system that is a path to incarceration. Unfortunately, most black defendants are on path number two.

I'll give you a concrete example; Our black defendant grew up in an abusive environment where he was beaten regularly by his step father and both his older brothers were in gangs. He was introduced to drugs at an early age and didn't finish school. These are mitigating circumstances which a good attorney would bring up at sentencing, but since they must be investigated prior to being submitted on befalf of the accused, it requires an investigator to go out to the neighborhood to get statements from family members (like cousins, aunts, siblings, etc.) and people in the neighborhood. A court appointed attorney for our black defendant won't be doing that, but our white defendants hired lawyer will have a private investigator out in the field collecting this information. The white defendant will usually get a much shorter sentence.

Or take the case of Todd Bridges; prosecutors thought they had this case all sewed up, but Bridges retained Johnny Cochran.....


In his 20s, Bridges battled a crack cocaine addiction for several years. In 1988, he was arrested and tried for the attempted murder of Kenneth "Tex" Clay, a Los Angeles area drug dealer who, prosecutors argued, had been shot by Bridges while on a binge. Bridges pleaded not guilty to the charges and was represented by the high-profile defense attorney Johnnie Cochran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnnie_Cochran). Cochran successfully portrayed Bridges as an abused minor who had been driven to drugs by an exploitative entertainment industry, and was now being unfairly framed. A witness finally testified that Bridges was not present at the time of the shooting. Bridges was acquitted of all charges by a jury.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Bridges#cite_note-4)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Bridges

Before you exclaim; "see there, Bridges got away with something!!!", let me remind you that most middle class white defendants will retain their own private quality legal counsel and probably get results no different than Bridges. Bridges was just lucky enough to be a black kid who could afford a good lawyer. White kids get "lucky" all the time.... black kids are just "unlucky" I guess.....

regards,
Waddie

David G
08-16-2014, 11:30 AM
A traffic incident --

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/15/incredibly-racist-woman-goes-on-incredibly-racist-rant-if-i-had-a-gun-i-would-shoot-you-video/

Shang
08-16-2014, 08:53 PM
Agreed!
I wondered if someone was going to mention it before I had to!:)
"Noah, thru his three sons", indeed!

Let's take up a collection to buy pants for Noah and the boys.

http://www.backtoclassics.com/images/pics/michelangelo/michelangelo_sistinechapeldrunkennessofnoah.jpg *

(Michelangelo said that the whole family was white.)
(Note that Noah had an alcohol problem.)

David G
08-18-2014, 08:26 PM
Mississippi again --

http://news.yahoo.com/mississippi-suspect-accused-shooting-man-over-mixed-race-213229773.html

John Smith
08-18-2014, 09:41 PM
Think the Supreme Court justices are paying attention; the ones who said there is no more racism?

David G
08-22-2014, 07:51 PM
And this from an officer in a department near Ferguson, Missouri. A trainer, firarms instructor, and swat team member --

St. Louis Area Cop Thinks Protesters Should Be ‘Put Down Like Rabid Dogs’
http://news.yahoo.com/st-louis-area-cop-thinks-protesters-put-down-173237961.html

David G
08-22-2014, 08:03 PM
Kudos to the department for correcting this one --

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/trooper-arrested-nfls-sam-montgomery-220254231--nfl.html

One wonders if the correction would have happened if this had been a bit less hi-profile defendant.

CWSmith
08-22-2014, 08:03 PM
St. Louis Area Cop Thinks Protesters Should Be ‘Put Down Like Rabid Dogs’

St. Louis area cop should be fired and never allowed to wear a badge.

David G
08-23-2014, 08:49 AM
And another. I wonder how many there are that hold the same views... but don't go around making a spectacle of themselves, so that they eventually come to the attention of their superiors...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/ferguson-officer-relieved-duty-video-racist-remarks

Ferguson: officer relieved of duty after video of racist remarks surfaces

Dan Page, among the police working at Ferguson protests, is relieved after video emerges of him saying ‘I’m into diversity, I kill everybody’

skuthorp
08-23-2014, 05:23 PM
Hmm, is this a tribal affair, the cop tribe and the rest?. Even the policeman son of a friend calls non police 'civilians', though he was a navy diver before. In my 20's I went out with a young policewoman and got a lot of unwarranted attention from other police till the relationship ended. Tribal again I suspect.

David G
08-25-2014, 08:27 PM
Some charts that shed a bit of light --

http://billmoyers.com/2014/05/22/these-eight-charts-show-why-racial-equality-is-a-myth-in-america

David G
08-29-2014, 10:09 AM
‘Known Racist’ Store Owner Refuses To Serve Blacks, Hispanics, ‘Trashy’ White People (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/28/known-racist-store-owner-refuses-to-serve-blacks-hispanics-trashy-white-people/)
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/28/known-racist-store-owner-refuses-to-serve-blacks-hispanics-trashy-white-people/

David G
09-14-2014, 02:44 PM
Well... the reporting is a bit histrionic and overwrought... but this is yet another example:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/14/django-unchained-actress-detained-after-kissing-husband-when-police-mistake-her-for-prostitute/

CWSmith
09-14-2014, 02:51 PM
It would be very interesting to interview the officers and see what they learned from the experience.

I would not bet very much, but I would love to be wrong.

Bubba L.
09-14-2014, 02:55 PM
‘Known Racist’ Store Owner Refuses To Serve Blacks, Hispanics, ‘Trashy’ White People (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/28/known-racist-store-owner-refuses-to-serve-blacks-hispanics-trashy-white-people/)


http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/28/known-racist-store-owner-refuses-to-serve-blacks-hispanics-trashy-white-people/

Time for a quiet protest outside of his store by a LARGE group of mixed race. Lots of cameras to video his reaction and then send it to fox so that they, and the right wing nuts can defend him.


Well... the reporting is a bit histrionic and overwrought... but this is yet another example:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/14/django-unchained-actress-detained-after-kissing-husband-when-police-mistake-her-for-prostitute/

So, a PDA is probable cause for prostitution now...

Gene

David G
09-14-2014, 03:20 PM
Time for a quiet protest outside of his store by a LARGE group of mixed race. Lots of cameras to video his reaction and then send it to fox so that they, and the right wing nuts can defend him.



So, a PDA is probable cause for prostitution now...

Gene

Particularly... I'd guess... if you're a young black woman. And - I see no mention of the race of her boyfriend. Mighta been black. But I'm willing to bet that part of the 'provocation' was that he wasn't. Any takers? I haven't done any research, and am not attempting to sandbag anyone... just playing a hunch...

Bubba L.
09-14-2014, 07:16 PM
Particularly... I'd guess... if you're a young black woman. And - I see no mention of the race of her boyfriend. Mighta been black. But I'm willing to bet that part of the 'provocation' was that he wasn't. Any takers? I haven't done any research, and am not attempting to sandbag anyone... just playing a hunch...

Yep. The sound of hoof beats doesn't mean horses but they are more likely than zebras. That being said we should be careful about potential stereotypes.

Gene

David G
09-14-2014, 07:27 PM
Yep. The sound of hoof beats doesn't mean horses but they are more likely than zebras. That being said we should be careful about potential stereotypes.

Gene

Yes... stereotypes can come back to bite you in the bum. Just ask the cops in this scenario. Nonetheless... I'm about 10% as willing to stereotype the cops attitudes as they were willing to stereotype her PDA...

OTOH, I'm not going to detain them on the basis of my hunch. And... jumpin again back to the other hand (see I really did train as an economist <G>) it hasn't been mentioned so far, other than in the article, but she DID refuse to provide ID when they asked... thus adding to their suspicion.

But that is in no way definitive. In most states one is is NOT required to show ID to a cop on a whim. One IS required to provide ID if it is in the course of an arrest. So, the way my lawyer friends in Oregon explain it to me is you say, "Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?". If they are ready to arrest you, they'll say so, and you provide ID. If they're not... and say you're free to go... the suggestion is: go. Don't stick around and flap your gums... or they might just discover that they have cause to arrest you after all.

Paul Girouard
09-14-2014, 07:36 PM
Yes... stereotypes can come back to bite you in the bum. Just ask the cops in this scenario. Nonetheless... I'm about 10% as willing to stereotype the cops attitudes as they were willing to stereotype her PDA... OTOH, I'm not going to detain them on the basis of my hunch.


Wonder if there's a tape of the PDA? One would think it was quite a show if the cops noticed it. Time of day , style of dress of the people involved, area that it was taking place at, all would be factors.

On the not showing ID to police , that's never a best course of action , in my opinion, when dealing with police, even IF it is within your rights, it sure to raise questions if a person refuses.

David G
09-14-2014, 07:48 PM
Wonder if there's a tape of the PDA? One would think it was quite a show if the cops noticed it. Time of day , style of dress of the people involved, area that it was taking place at, all would be factors.

On the not showing ID to police , that's never a best course of action , in my opinion, when dealing with police, even IF it is within your rights, it sure to raise questions if a person refuses.

Squid - your perspective is sometimes different than mine, but I find it is often useful. It would be useful, though, if you're going to chime in - if you had read what went before. For example - the article in the OP showed the woman at the time of the incident. She was dressed conservatively enough for a hot day.

You're right - more often than not, if you have nothing to hide, and no time to mess around... it's better to just show the ID, answer any reasonable questions, and attempt to convince the police that 'these are not the droids you are looking for'. But I think it's important to know that - in most states - that's not the only option.

Bubba L.
09-14-2014, 09:33 PM
Particularly... I'd guess... if you're a young black woman. And - I see no mention of the race of her boyfriend. Mighta been black. But I'm willing to bet that part of the 'provocation' was that he wasn't. Any takers? I haven't done any research, and am not attempting to sandbag anyone... just playing a hunch...

Did some looking into it and he seems to be a white man. And a chef to boot. Maybe the chef part caused the suspicion...

Edit: I wonder if his race had anything to do with it or if the cops in question just assume that a black woman in that area showing a PDA is a prostitute?
On another note, when are we going to stop thinking that prostitutes are bad people who need to be arrested? At worst, some of them, probably a majority are victims. Some, probably a minority, are just trying to make a living. Some people prostitute their minds and values, SP and many pols come to mind while others prostitute their bodies. I don't see a difference.


Gene

Paul Girouard
09-14-2014, 09:55 PM
Squid - your perspective is sometimes different than mine, but I find it is often useful. It would be useful, though, if you're going to chime in - if you had read what went before. For example - the article in the OP showed the woman at the time of the incident. She was dressed conservatively enough for a hot day.

You're right - more often than not, if you have nothing to hide, and no time to mess around... it's better to just show the ID, answer any reasonable questions, and attempt to convince the police that 'these are not the droids you are looking for'. But I think it's important to know that - in most states - that's not the only option.


I did see that photo, but that was but one part of my post, and how do we know she didn't have the "New York" tee shirt tied up in a different fashion , how long is her , assumed skirt, that we can only see the top of in the photo?

On point two there used to be a ole saying about walking into traffic , even in a cross walk, "He was right (meaning was legally walking into the cross walk) , dead right!" Arguing with a cop , building inspector, your LPO /DO / XO / CO / Boss all can have consequences, it's best to weight what those may be before doing so.

Maybe her point WAS to get arrested or detained, stranger things have happened.

CWSmith
09-14-2014, 10:04 PM
Wonder if there's a tape of the PDA? One would think it was quite a show if the cops noticed it. Time of day , style of dress of the people involved, area that it was taking place at, all would be factors.

On the not showing ID to police , that's never a best course of action , in my opinion, when dealing with police, even IF it is within your rights, it sure to raise questions if a person refuses.


I did see that photo, but that was but one part of my post, and how do we know she didn't have the "New York" tee shirt tied up in a different fashion , how long is her , assumed skirt, that we can only see the top of in the photo?

On point two there used to be a ole saying about walking into traffic , even in a cross walk, "He was right (meaning was legally walking into the cross walk) , dead right!" Arguing with a cop , building inspector, your LPO /DO / XO / CO / Boss all can have consequences, it's best to weight what those may be before doing so.

Maybe her point WAS to get arrested or detained, stranger things have happened.

Paul, you're bending over awfully far to see it in favor of the police. If you get so far that you can again see where you are headed, I suggest you stop.

Paul Girouard
09-14-2014, 10:09 PM
Paul, you're bending over awfully far to see it in favor of the police. If you get so far that you can again see where you are headed, I suggest you stop.

The same can be said of the other side of the argument. Maybe all cops are bigots , maybe all white people are bigots, maybe everyone is a bigot.

You want to go argue with a cop about showing your ID have at it!

CWSmith
09-14-2014, 11:03 PM
You want to go argue with a cop about showing your ID have at it!

Actually, I hope the courts will do that explaining and I do plan to ask an attorney what my rights are in case I ever encounter a cop like this (again).

David G
09-15-2014, 11:34 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10614343_10152417313266275_3983842940832650750_n.j pg?oh=d22b3a01800d196183db8b0351354bae&oe=548E5675&__gda__=1418422816_2dafe328a9d3566aa289793046d242b 0

Keith Wilson
09-15-2014, 11:53 AM
but when a person comes to understand that all humans are related, descended from the man Noah thru his three sons,Wow. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-shocked032.gif Another gobsmack from Hanley.

All humans are indeed related, but not that way. Evolution was at one point used to justify the most noxious forms of racism. But evolution is a description of reality, of what happened and how it happened, like all the other sciences. Any knowledge of the world can be used for good or evil: chemistry can be used to build gas chambers, physics can be used to build atomic bombs, and evolution can be used to justify horrible social policies.

Waddie makes a good point, that race and class issues are often confused - and what makes it more complicated is that they go together to some extent, with multiple feedback loops.

Bubba L.
09-15-2014, 12:00 PM
Kudos to the department for correcting this one --

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/trooper-arrested-nfls-sam-montgomery-220254231--nfl.html

One wonders if the correction would have happened if this had been a bit less hi-profile defendant.

Sadly it takes a high profile case to get the attention of authorities. I wonder what other types of offenders he discriminated against? Glad to see that there is some corrective action in at least one police force.

Gene

David G
09-15-2014, 10:44 PM
Well... the reporting is a bit histrionic and overwrought... but this is yet another example:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/14/django-unchained-actress-detained-after-kissing-husband-when-police-mistake-her-for-prostitute/


Time for a quiet protest outside of his store by a LARGE group of mixed race. Lots of cameras to video his reaction and then send it to fox so that they, and the right wing nuts can defend him.



So, a PDA is probable cause for prostitution now...

Gene


Particularly... I'd guess... if you're a young black woman. And - I see no mention of the race of her boyfriend. Mighta been black. But I'm willing to bet that part of the 'provocation' was that he wasn't. Any takers? I haven't done any research, and am not attempting to sandbag anyone... just playing a hunch...

So... tonight I see THIS report. Sure enough... the boyfriend was a white guy.

https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/celeb-news/daniele-watts-goes-on-the-offensive-after-being-detained-by-lapd-for-heavy-pda-170420117.html

Paul Girouard
09-15-2014, 11:05 PM
So... tonight I see THIS report. Sure enough... the boyfriend was a white guy.

https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/celeb-news/daniele-watts-goes-on-the-offensive-after-being-detained-by-lapd-for-heavy-pda-170420117.html

Did you read the article? He willing gave his ID to the cop, she refused. California law states:

California law says that if police have reasonable suspicion, they are permitted to detain an individual for a reasonable amount of time in order to ascertain the person's identity. Police said Monday they followed proper protocol when they demanded identification.


They where having sex in a car in board day light with the doors open.

She played the race card:

"Do you know how many times the cops have been called just for being black, because I'm black and he's white?" Watts replies. “I'm just being really honest, sir."


"Who brought up a race card? Why? I said nothing about you being black," Parker, responds.


Then she says she's on the phone with her dad about her stepmom:


"I have not done anything wrong," she insists. "I'm on the phone with my father, my stepmom is dying."

Or was she just having sex in a car with doors open??

She got what she wanted , publicity like the attention whore she is.


And :::
Watts says today that she still has no regrets for not just handing over her ID when asked.


Ya the cop should be fired , thrown in jail and flogged, racist A hole!

David G
09-15-2014, 11:20 PM
Squid -- blahh blahh blahh. I already addressed the point of her choosing to withhold her ID. I was simply following up on my earlier wondering about the race of her boyfriend. Turns out he WAS white. She claims it's not the first time they've been hassled by police just for being a bi-racial couple. I, for one, do not find that surprising. Just disappointing. For the cop to go all "Aw Shucks... who mentioned race??" strikes me as disingenuous. And... I made no claims about how the cop should be treated. Maybe he did have a legit reason to question them. If they had 'reasonable suspicion' of some crime... what was the crime, and what did that reasonable suspicion spring from? I'm suggesting that their radar was set off by nothing more than the fact that they were being too friendly while bi-racial. You say they were "having sex" in the car. The reports i've read didn't mention that... just kissing/necking. There's a bit of territory between necking and having sex. Do you have some information I lack, or are you performing contortions to support the cop for some reason?

Paul Girouard
09-15-2014, 11:25 PM
Squid -- blahh blahh blahh. I already addressed the point of her choosing to withhold her ID. I was simply following up on my earlier wondering about the race of her boyfriend. Turns out he WAS white. She claims it's not the first time they've been hassled by police just for being a bi-racial couple. I, for one, do not find that surprising. Just disappointing. For the cop to go all "Aw Shucks... who mentioned race??" strikes me as disingenuous. And... I made no claims about how the cop should be treated. Maybe he did have a legit reason to question them. If they had 'reasonable suspicion' of some crime... what was the crime, and what did that reasonable suspicion spring from? I'm suggesting that their radar was set off by nothing more than the fact that they were being too friendly while bi-racial. You say they were "having sex" in the car. The reports i've read didn't mention that... just kissing/necking. There's a bit of territory between necking and having sex. Do you have some information I lack, or are you performing contortions to support the cop for some reason?


So you didn't read your own C&P?


"There was an indication on the radio call that a male white and female black were involved in a sexual act inside a Mercedes with the vehicle door open," Officer Sally Madera told CNN. "Two people were briefly detained, but it was revealed no crime had been committed."


Witnesses inside the Directors Guild office building told police they saw the couple having sex in the passenger seat of the vehicle, with the door open, according to TMZ. Watts told NBC News that while on the CBS lot they were approached by a man in a suit and asked to leave because "employees were distracted" by their PDA. She says they laughed it off and stopped a few minutes later.




Probably all prearranged by her "people", all publicity, is good publicity.

David G
09-15-2014, 11:57 PM
So... to recap. There was a complaint the the couple were 'having sex in the car with the door open'. The police responded, and their investigation showed no evidence that the complaint was correct (though we all know that they might have been some sort of PDA going on before the cops got there). So I ask again... having seen for themselves there was no evidence of the legitimacy of the complaint... where does the 'Reasonable Cause' spring from?

But - even though the call-out is a wash-out - being well-trained cops, they attempt to follow up. One never knows when someone will voluntarily hand over information, ID, drugs, etc. that leads to an arrest - maybe even on another matter: bail skip; outstanding felony warrant; etc.

The cop was right - he had every right to ask for her ID. He also had every right to ask for her autograph and a check for $10,0000. She was also right - she's under no legal obligation to provide any of the above (unless he actually did have reasonable cause to detain her... which we haven't seen so far). Whether it would be smarter to do so has already been discussed.

So that should have settled the matter. Unfortunately... she may have known her rights about providing ID... but she didn't know that the interaction isn't officially over until the cop said she's free to go. So... instead of mouthing the accepted formulation, "Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?"... she simply left. This gave the cop the slimmest of excuses to arrest her for 'leaving the scene'. The department will have to decide whether the cop showed good judgement by arresting her for 'leaving the scene' of... nothing. Simply because the legalities could be stretched to make that arguably legitimate (but mostly, I suspect, because he was miffed at her refusing to cough up the ID).

Was there racism involved? In the initial complaint? In the cops choosing to press the matter? Or none at all? Dunno for sure, as it is quite difficult to see inside the hearts of the people in question. My guess would be that there was in one or both cases... but it's just a guess. Just like thinking that the boyfriend would turn out to be white... was just a guess.

Have I missed anything? Misrepresented anything? Assumed any facts not in evidence?

Oh... and another guess: her publicist had nothing to do with the incident. Do you have any evidence so suggest they did? Or are you simply playing 'blame the victim'?

David G
09-16-2014, 03:21 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10435978_10152416463746275_4552168416258104316_n.j pg?oh=3fcc7d2dcb1fa84ad8d5d29b5ea6c72f&oe=54838E82&__gda__=1419164052_fb00385f728b2f837bb2d1ec22f2441 9

Paul Girouard
09-16-2014, 09:13 PM
Was there racism involved? In the initial complaint? In the cops choosing to press the matter? Or none at all? Dunno for sure, as it is quite difficult to see inside the hearts of the people in question.


My guess would be that there was in one or both cases... but it's just a guess. Just like thinking that the boyfriend would turn out to be white... was just a guess.

Have I missed anything? Misrepresented anything? Assumed any facts not in evidence?

Oh... and another guess: her publicist had nothing to do with the incident. Do you have any evidence so suggest they did? Or are you simply playing 'blame the victim'?



Paragraph #1, you assumption or "guessing" indicates your mind was made up when you read she was black, that's how I read your wording.

Yes.
Yes.
Possibly.

She the one who brought up she has a publicist, from your C&P:


"And I have every right to say no, and if you'd like to demand it you can take me down to the court office and I can make a scene about it. And you know what I have a publicist, and I work as an actress," Watts says.


Maybe the cop's should have just told the people who called in the complaint that they couldn't deal with this issue they had called in due to the race of the people involved!

David G
09-16-2014, 10:00 PM
Paragraph #1, you assumption or "guessing" indicates your mind was made up when you read she was black, that's how I read your wording.

Yes.
Yes.
Possibly.

She the one who brought up she has a publicist, from your C&P:


"And I have every right to say no, and if you'd like to demand it you can take me down to the court office and I can make a scene about it. And you know what I have a publicist, and I work as an actress," Watts says.


Maybe the cop's should have just told the people who called in the complaint that they couldn't deal with this issue they had called in due to the race of the people involved!

Again, you're being disingenuous. I made no such suggestion. I have no problem whatsoever with the cops following up on citizens complaints. That's part of what we pay them for.

Here's my 'complaint'... just in case you really didn't get it the first time --

If we skip over the initial complaint (legit or bogus... we have no way to know at this point)... right to the cops investigation... it turned up nothing. The cops first (and lesser) error (in my estimation) was to continue to press for her ID, when she had clearly refused, and he clearly had no cause to detain her for anything. Sure, he had the right to ask - and she had the right to refuse. He did. Apparently repeatedly. She did, also repeatedly it seems. It was past time for him to hear her. Her error was to assume that this legitimate refusal would be the end of it, and that she was within her rights to walk away. Not according to the lawyers I talked to. She can't leave unimpeded until the cop indicates he's done with her. His next (and greater) error (again, in my estimation) was arresting her for 'leaving the scene'. That, while technically within his power, was a case of ever-reach. Probably brought on by her mouthiness and adamant lack of cooperation.

Again... making up stuff that I never said... so you can ridicule it... is a tactic so well-known, it has a specific name in the annals of logical fallacies: Straw Man. Look it up. Familiarize yourself with it. And then, please, if you want to be taken seriously... banish it from your toolbox.

Regarding the publicist issue - yes she mentioned it first. By way of saying... if you push this ridiculous incident... if you arrest me for, essentially, nothing... I WILL make a stink about it. i have the resources, and I have a publicist, and I'm not afraid to use them.

I never said she didn't say the word publicist first. You took it to a whole 'nother level with the claim that she probably set the incident up with her publicist ahead of time to garner publicity. You offered no evidence at the time, and have still offered no facts or logic that would bolster such an accusation. I do believe you owe the young lady an apology. Maybe you can find her on Facebook, and do the honorable thing...

David G
09-19-2014, 01:59 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10620603_10152733990149255_5797984297833627706_n.j pg?oh=1f9496b13410612595a99a3e58b77695&oe=548FFEBF&__gda__=1422305498_d0199cf8b96a01af9384c0e4454d415 c

David G
09-19-2014, 10:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FotCW5OIFZc

David G
09-19-2014, 10:15 PM
And my friend Nick talks about his experience growing up black


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIbvGwh0CzY

David G
10-20-2014, 02:01 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1395887_10152493607186275_7411422084509631973_n.jp g?oh=453f19155d7b43a42b3fd6d137a04786&oe=54F1EB51&__gda__=1421752123_cf83c9d90085a85046c852d81b1ab62 9

Dan McCosh
10-20-2014, 04:11 PM
Are not stereotyping, profiling and prejudice expressions of racism, and therefore racist?

regards,
Waddie Stereotyping, profiling and prejudice apply to nationalities, food, and cars as well as race. They are not exclusively racist concepts.

Dannybb55
10-20-2014, 04:17 PM
I am always amused by the atheist/agnostic take on racism especially in light of the promotion of it by the theory of evolution so beloved of the intelligentsia; but when a person comes to understand that all humans are related, descended from the man Noah thru his three sons, racism evaporates from the mind and even becomes comical.
So, you are saying that we are all inbread cousins?
Since faith requires a suspension of reason and no proof whatsoever. I won't ask you to defend this claim of yours.

David G
10-31-2014, 09:16 AM
Hmmm... oversharing results in sad disclosure --

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/10/30/teacher-to-students-if-i-had-only-10-days-to-live-id-kill-all-black-people-video/

Nicholas Scheuer
10-31-2014, 11:33 AM
The idea that we all are descendants of Noah, and that all of the animals now on earth evolved from those in the Ark is f-----g ridiculous. Did it ever occur to proponents that a flood might have submerged only PART of the World? The part that is recorded in the old testament?

Durnik
10-31-2014, 11:50 AM
^ yup - even today, there's more than a few who think 'the whole world'.. is where they live.

enjoy
bobby

Bubba L.
10-31-2014, 05:07 PM
The idea that we all are descendants of Noah, and that all of the animals now on earth evolved from those in the Ark is f-----g ridiculous. Did it ever occur to proponents that a flood might have submerged only PART of the World? The part that is recorded in the old testament?

When you think the world is only as big as you can walk in a few days then yes the whole world was flooded.

Gene

David G
11-07-2014, 08:54 PM
We hate that ______ Obama --

http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/politics/republican-shows-true-colors-during-c-span-call-in-video/

Bubba L.
11-07-2014, 09:09 PM
Interesting, it sure seemed that he included himself in that category unless he misspoke.

Gene

David G
11-08-2014, 12:57 AM
Another story from Florida --

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11/07/watch-racist-republican-gets-schooled-by-citizens-after-calling-candidate-a-nggr-video/

David G
12-08-2014, 08:02 PM
https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10429328_531032443666389_9193200306408015241_n.jpg ?oh=7dd161a4fd49914b2a9919e08270a458&oe=550E6912

David G
12-27-2014, 10:07 AM
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10891774_10152559840231623_1331138349338255639_n.j pg?oh=2f151db3692cf82a0ab9c9ac383892c9&oe=54FF590C

stevebaby
12-29-2014, 08:50 PM
I would characterize the problem somewhat differently. Anyone accused of a crime goes up against a pretty formidable machine. They will face a team of prosecutors who will build a case against them, and who will be very familiar with the judge assigned to the case, and they will have access to ballistics experts, a number if investigators gathering evidence (detectives) who usually aren't looking for evidence that exonerates the accused, and the funds to call upon any number of expert witnesses, all working to convict the accused of a crime. They have the time and resources to make any defense difficult, especially if that defense is dependent on a court appointed attorney.

If the accused doesn't have the money to hire an attorney, and is dependent on court appointed counsel, that counsel probably won't be very experienced, (many that I saw were just out of law school), and will not be able to afford the investigators and other experts that could counter the prosecution. Rather than being overburdened, most of these court appointed attorneys are not the best quality, weren't hired by reputable law firms, and take these low paying court appointed attorney jobs as a way to make ends meet. Even in locations that have an actual public defenders office, the attorneys there are usually outmatched by their opponents and often fail to put up a competent defense, and lack those aforementioned resources, so essential to a good defense.

Usually the court appointed attorney gets paid the same regardless of the outcome of the case, so there is little incentive to fight hard for the "client". In fact, the quicker the case can be disposed the more cases that attorney can take on and the more money they can make from the government, who pays a fixed amount per case. This typically leads to plea bargains or guilty pleas, even when there is a good possibility that the defense could be successful. However, to a hired attorney plea bargains and guilty pleas are a last resort, and are usually only employed to achieve a reduced sentence.

So essentially what we have is a two track justice system. One system where the accused does have a hope of justice prevailing and another system that is a path to incarceration. Unfortunately, most black defendants are on path number two.

I'll give you a concrete example; Our black defendant grew up in an abusive environment where he was beaten regularly by his step father and both his older brothers were in gangs. He was introduced to drugs at an early age and didn't finish school. These are mitigating circumstances which a good attorney would bring up at sentencing, but since they must be investigated prior to being submitted on befalf of the accused, it requires an investigator to go out to the neighborhood to get statements from family members (like cousins, aunts, siblings, etc.) and people in the neighborhood. A court appointed attorney for our black defendant won't be doing that, but our white defendants hired lawyer will have a private investigator out in the field collecting this information. The white defendant will usually get a much shorter sentence.

Or take the case of Todd Bridges; prosecutors thought they had this case all sewed up, but Bridges retained Johnny Cochran.....



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Bridges

Before you exclaim; "see there, Bridges got away with something!!!", let me remind you that most middle class white defendants will retain their own private quality legal counsel and probably get results no different than Bridges. Bridges was just lucky enough to be a black kid who could afford a good lawyer. White kids get "lucky" all the time.... black kids are just "unlucky" I guess.....

regards,
Waddie Thank you for an excellent post Waddie. Your situation in the US is mirrored in Australia BTW.
I had a couple of friends who were accused of murder. Fortunately they were white and middle class and they were given bail, usually not given in murder trials. The case against them was also not strong. They were aquitted after a year but the whole trial left some pretty big scars. Their father lost his business and had to sell his house (luckily in an expensive area so he made enough out of the sale to afford the lawyers and expert witnesses. Their parents' marriage collapsed, many of their friends shunned them and it left some pretty nasty psychological scars.
It's a horrendous situation to be in. For someone who's not guilty but without the means to prove it, it must be a nightmare.

David G
01-11-2015, 11:56 AM
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10850190_1383611868393179_5984780364633120306_n.jp g?oh=7d9fb77f0b3e69e3f4e2a85dac2f1ae7&oe=553B7CA4


Sounds legit... eh?

David G
01-11-2015, 12:12 PM
Even though it's three white guys - the following story illustrates the graphic above --

http://reverbpress.com/news/right-wing-terrorists-you-dont-know-about/

Ian McColgin
01-11-2015, 12:18 PM
Where are the white Christian church leaders denouncing these guys? Where are the moderate white people objecting?

Ian McColgin
02-15-2015, 04:32 PM
Now let's watch one of our Righties explain how:

Alday is not representative of Republicans; and

There were Democrats who were in the Klan; and

Alday is actually right about the wasteful ways of those people anyway.

CWSmith
02-15-2015, 06:12 PM
You have to wonder about the people around someone like this. It can't be the first time he's said it, so where were the people challenging him and telling him he's wrong, or at the very least saying "You'd best not say that in public." He's just the tip of his local iceberg.

David G
03-10-2015, 10:50 AM
Another Oklahome fraternity story --

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/03/10/oklahoma_sae_house_mother_video_second_racial_slur _incident_recorded.html?wpsrc=fol_fb

David G
03-23-2015, 09:40 AM
This one from Indiana --

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/03/18/gifted-black-student-told-nggers-dont-belong-in-class-school-bans-her-parents-for-complaining-video/

Ian McColgin
03-23-2015, 10:02 AM
And a group in Texas are fighting what they call a "free speech" fight to get the Confederate Battle Flag on their auto license plates. The DMV had rejected the design, noting that people have free speech to put any bumper sticker they want, but it's not free speech to compell the State of Texas to provide a racist message on the car tag.

Boater14
03-23-2015, 01:27 PM
makes the racists easy to spot. save the guff about history buffs. battle flaq=racist......if only everything could be that simple.

David G
03-29-2015, 08:42 AM
Lots of places still celebrate the Confederate flag, which I view as a symbol of their cause, and the practice of racism. They fly it from their statehouses (or did until recently). They put it on their license plates, etc. --

https://scontent-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11006459_10152845074016275_1332970372777861214_n.j pg?oh=63c334a224c4398ca0473af5a5d1c76e&oe=55767FD6

David G
03-29-2015, 11:54 AM
http://thegrio.com/2015/03/29/frat-boy-noose-statue-ole-miss/

RichKrough
03-29-2015, 12:54 PM
Cars with Confederate or Gadsen flags on them don't bother me, It just makes it quicker to spot where the dumbass white trash are.

David G
03-30-2015, 01:35 PM
So... if you are a thinking Republican...

Aren't you tired of this sorta chit YET???

David G
05-25-2015, 12:17 PM
More on how it works in present-day society --

http://www.upworthy.com/dante-and-david-apply-for-the-same-job-but-only-one-gets-an-interview-heres-the-rest-of-their-day?c=ufb2%3Fc%3Dbl3

David G
05-27-2015, 02:23 PM
Another example of egregiously explicit racism - this time in the Chicago Police Dept.

Buy... hey... I'm sure they've got the problem sorted now, eh?

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/27/chicago-police-put-antlers-black-man-posed-pictures/

David G
05-27-2015, 03:57 PM
And this time, we have a (white) Kansas city councilman yelling racial epithets at a 17-year old after a traffic incident. He says there's more to the story --

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/27/kansas-councilman-screams-black-ngger-btch-go-back-to-baltimore-at-teen-girl-video/

Now... weren't some of you on the right talking about a post-racial society???