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Chip-skiff
08-06-2014, 10:37 PM
Carbon deposition (basically coal-burning) is already changing the chemistry of the Pacific ocean. As a lover of fresh oysters (and also of clean water and life in general) this upsets me.

http://apps.seattletimes.com/reports/sea-change/2013/sep/11/oysters-hit-hard/

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/northwest_oyster_die-offs_show_ocean_acidification_has_arrived/2466/

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2009336458_oysters14m.html

David G
08-06-2014, 11:55 PM
And a sad thing it is. Buckle your seat belts... there are some adjustments that will need to be made. For example - here in the Pacific NW - forest fires will increase. The Forest Services policy of fighting them will, I suspect, eventually change to one of containing them only, and taking a more relaxed posture toward the damage they cause. Choices of living sites will be affected. Forestry practices will change. A lot of disruption and inefficiency will happen.

And still... the deniers since their tired old tune. I can't tell you how much it reminds me of the tobacco industries efforts to deny that smoking caused health problems.

http://billmoyers.com/2014/08/06/global-warming-deniers-are-growing-more-desperate-by-the-day/

Flying Orca
08-07-2014, 07:14 AM
And still... the deniers since their tired old tune. I can't tell you how much it reminds me of the tobacco industries efforts to deny that smoking caused health problems.

Well, part of that could well be due to the fact that some of the shills have worked on both campaigns.

Three Cedars
08-08-2014, 01:42 AM
yes something to wonder about .. not sure if it will affect the phytoplankton that you know .. make most the earth's oxygen .... I'd miss that if it went away . Micro plastic particles being ingested by the little plankton and now unprecedented ocean acidification .... but hey technology will save us .... right ?

skuthorp
08-08-2014, 04:13 AM
If it's effecting Pacific Oysters then its effecting phytoplankton even more. The whole chain is built on those tiny animals.
" Phytoplankton account for half of all photosynthetic activity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis) on Earth.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoplankton#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoplankton#cite_note-4)Their cumulative energy fixation in carbon compounds (primary production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_production)) is the basis for the vast majority of oceanic and also many freshwater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freshwater) food webs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_web)"

seanz
08-08-2014, 05:00 AM
I'm not concerned, when the ice sheets melt the extra fresh water should reverse the acidification. Think positive.

skuthorp
08-08-2014, 05:12 AM
I'm not concerned, when the ice sheets melt the extra fresh water should reverse the acidification. Think positive.
My neighbour and I were just musing on where to build our jetty, it's easier to do before the tide comes in. Problem is do we just allow for the Antarctic ice sheets, or do we have to factor in Greenland as well? Problems, problems……………….

PeterSibley
08-08-2014, 05:20 AM
The Life Insurance industry can answer your question Jeff, corrected average life span etc.

SeaB
08-08-2014, 06:01 AM
The ocean is dying and your worrying about your oyster supply, correct?

TomF
08-08-2014, 06:23 AM
The ocean is dying and your worrying about your oyster supply, correct?Welcome, SeaB. Check your sarcasm detector - it's been jolted somehow.

SeaB
08-08-2014, 12:38 PM
Thanks, Tom, I did find it a little irritating.

Peerie Maa
08-08-2014, 01:46 PM
The ocean is dying and your worrying about your oyster supply, correct?

It is kind of important as this is probably the only way to get through to the GW Deniers.

bobbys
08-08-2014, 02:33 PM
The ocean is dying and your worrying about your oyster supply, correct?.

On a positive note my house is 8blocks away from the ocean, a good warming trend should lift the sea level, make MY home ocean front and I can double my money..

Course the trick is how it stops but I could join the GW crowd when it hits halfway and lobby with the libs.

PeterSibley
08-08-2014, 03:52 PM
We all hope you're right bobby and that denial is the true and correct path.

paulf
08-08-2014, 04:12 PM
I worked on a climate change research program at PNNL to determine if the Ocean acts as a source or a sink of CO2. One thing for sure, if The Japan current and the Gulf stream change significantly there will be BIG problems in the Americas and Europe. I've herd folks say the sun is fluctuating and that could be true, however, these data can't be confirmed.

"There has been confirmation in the last two decades, through instrumental measurements aboard satellites, that the ‘solar constant’ does, as has long been hypothesized, vary over different timescales and with identifiable periodicities. This being the case, it is necessary to explore how these variations play a role in terrestrial climate change. While there is no consensus as to the best method for estimating past variations in solar output, it seems likely that over the last 500 years the sun has played a role in the changing climate. However, there is little evidence to suggest that changes in irradiance are having a large impact on the current warming trend. (Journal, Progress in Physical Geography)

http://ppg.sagepub.com/content/23/3/309.abstract

Regardless of the cause, anthropogenic or natural You should not climb out on a week branch and start sawing, we really should try to limit our contribution.

skuthorp
08-08-2014, 04:15 PM
.

On a positive note my house is 8 blocks away from the ocean, a good warming trend should lift the sea level, make MY home ocean front and I can double my money..

Course the trick is how it stops but I could join the GW crowd when it hits halfway and lobby with the libs.
Does this mean you have an investment in global warming bobbys?:d

Peerie Maa
08-08-2014, 04:22 PM
Does this mean you have an investment in global warming bobbys?:d

No, his investment is in control of the thermostat.

bobbys
08-08-2014, 05:07 PM
Does this mean you have an investment in global warming bobbys?:d.

I left the flat Oit society just for this reason..

Money comes foist to a greedy capitalist like me.

bobbys
08-08-2014, 05:08 PM
.


No, his investment is in control of the thermostat..

Do not. Fret , me and granny still keep things hot and spicy!

Jim Mahan
08-08-2014, 06:00 PM
Okay, look. Enough of this. Here's what to do.

Build a large solar collector out in the desert. Use it to power up a massive holographic projection to above the atmosphere, and create a gargantuan high resolution image of a solar filter, like a giant sunglass lense. A hologram of a sunglass lense, projected into near space between the sun and Earth, such that only solar energy in the healthy part of the spectrum can get through; all the nasty global warming heat would be simply dissipated in the cold empty vacuum of space. Course then you have to program in a little aperature for the solar energy driving the hologram can get in. Gotta keep up the loop.
Then, see, if you cool things down too much you just get a new less darkened lense to make a projection from. So the system is free, it protects us from natural variations in solar output, we can make more ice at the poles if we want. And we can make the entire L.A. basin cool. And way hip.
But not just one big one, driving a single Earth-saving, (no profit-making though, the sun is still free) massive solar filter virtually ending global warming overnight, why not then some smaller more local applications like projecting a filter in the south eastern north pacific to modulate or eliminate El Nino and La Nina events, one for Nevada and
Arizona to create a banana belt with rain forests where the desert used to be.

So see, it's not that hard, and I'm not even a scientist. Do I hafta do everything?

paulf
08-08-2014, 06:34 PM
Okay, look. Enough of this. Here's what to do.

Build a large solar collector out in the desert. Use it to power up a massive holographic projection to above the atmosphere, and create a gargantuan high resolution image of a solar filter, like a giant sunglass lense. A hologram of a sunglass lense, projected into near space between the sun and Earth, such that only solar energy in the healthy part of the spectrum can get through; all the nasty global warming heat would be simply dissipated in the cold empty vacuum of space. Course then you have to program in a little aperature for the solar energy driving the hologram can get in. Gotta keep up the loop.
Then, see, if you cool things down too much you just get a new less darkened lense to make a projection from. So the system is free, it protects us from natural variations in solar output, we can make more ice at the poles if we want. And we can make the entire L.A. basin cool. And way hip.
But not just one big one, driving a single Earth-saving, (no profit-making though, the sun is still free) massive solar filter virtually ending global warming overnight, why not then some smaller more local applications like projecting a filter in the south eastern north pacific to modulate or eliminate El Nino and La Nina events, one for Nevada and
Arizona to create a banana belt with rain forests where the desert used to be.

So see, it's not that hard, and I'm not even a scientist. Do I hafta do everything?


Good idea...

Chip-skiff
08-08-2014, 06:38 PM
Of course that pie-in-the-sky hologram will have little or no effect on the basic chemical balances, which is what's killing the oysters. Carbon deposition: look it up.

Is there any among us so warped as to claim to love the ocean while not caring about the oysters?

skuthorp
08-08-2014, 06:43 PM
"Is there any among us so warped as to claim to love the ocean while not caring about the oysters?"

http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/pics/glass21.gif (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=the+walrus+and+the+carpenter&source=images&cd=&docid=h9vMiGFd8tPZ3M&tbnid=NoTc4urxDE0N2M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jabberwocky.com%2Fcarroll%2Fw alrus.html&ei=VWDlU4bWDcTc8AWLkIKABw&bvm=bv.72676100,d.dGc&psig=AFQjCNHygjZdFMUG4YxYQyJPcJtSl4dgJA&ust=1407627730074877)
The Walrus and The Carpenter

Lewis Carroll

(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)

The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright--
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.

The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done--
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"
http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/pics/glass20-small.gif (http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/pics/glass20.gif)
The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying overhead--
There were no birds to fly.

The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it would be grand!"

"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year.
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.

"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."

The eldest Oyster looked at him,
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head--
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.

But four young Oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat--
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.

Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.
http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/pics/glass21-small.gif (http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/pics/glass21.gif)
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."

"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.

"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."

"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Do you admire the view?
http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/pics/glass22-small.gif (http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/pics/glass22.gif)
"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to ask you twice!"

"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.

paulf
08-08-2014, 06:56 PM
It's Ocean acidification and the culprit is CO2.
It is this increasing amount of carbon dioxide in the oceans that is causing ocean acidification. When carbon dioxide enters the ocean, it combines with seawater to produce carbonic acid, which increases the acidity of the water, lowering its pH.

All calcareous shelled organisms will have problems. Forams and Diatoms will fail also. They are the primary producers, and if they suffer everybody suffers.

Kinda like, if momma aint happy, aint nobody happy.

chas
08-08-2014, 09:16 PM
"Is there any among us so warped as to claim to love the ocean while not caring about the oysters?"

I hate oysters! As a kid I, gawd was forceably introduced to them in the traditional Island way, slurping them raw out of the slippery half-shell. World-renowned Malpeque Bay oysters, gawd, it sickens me to this day.

I live to be on the ocean however. / Jim

bobbys
08-08-2014, 11:23 PM
I love oysters, go up to oysterville Washington, had some friends that grew them there and gave me a bunch every time I went there, I gave them a boat and they never forgot it and always brought me some if they came down my way..

If we go out I like to order oysters as I'm not a good frying cook..

PeterSibley
08-08-2014, 11:40 PM
I worked on a climate change research program at PNNL to determine if the Ocean acts as a source or a sink of CO2. One thing for sure, if The Japan current and the Gulf stream change significantly there will be BIG problems in the Americas and Europe. I've herd folks say the sun is fluctuating and that could be true, however, these data can't be confirmed.

"There has been confirmation in the last two decades, through instrumental measurements aboard satellites, that the ‘solar constant’ does, as has long been hypothesized, vary over different timescales and with identifiable periodicities. This being the case, it is necessary to explore how these variations play a role in terrestrial climate change. While there is no consensus as to the best method for estimating past variations in solar output, it seems likely that over the last 500 years the sun has played a role in the changing climate. However, there is little evidence to suggest that changes in irradiance are having a large impact on the current warming trend. (Journal, Progress in Physical Geography)

http://ppg.sagepub.com/content/23/3/309.abstract

Regardless of the cause, anthropogenic or natural You should not climb out on a week branch and start sawing, we really should try to limit our contribution.

Sanity, thus you will be ignored .

skuthorp
08-09-2014, 05:46 AM
Truth and facts are often not politically acceptable, even within families.

Monkey Butler
08-09-2014, 08:04 AM
It's Ocean acidification and the culprit is CO2.
It is this increasing amount of carbon dioxide in the oceans that is causing ocean acidification. When carbon dioxide enters the ocean, it combines with seawater to produce carbonic acid, which increases the acidity of the water, lowering its pH.

All calcareous shelled organisms will have problems. Forams and Diatoms will fail also. They are the primary producers, and if they suffer everybody suffers.

Kinda like, if momma aint happy, aint nobody happy.

When I had marine aquarium setups with hard corals, clams, etc. I ran a home made device called a calcium reactor. It worked by introducing CO2 into a bed of crushed shell. The lowered ph dissolved calcium carbonate into the water which was then introduced into the tank. Without this process the organisms in the tank would quickly consume all the available calcium and their growth would be stunted. I wonder if this process happens in the seas and to what extent?

Peerie Maa
08-09-2014, 10:18 AM
When I had marine aquarium setups with hard corals, clams, etc. I ran a home made device called a calcium reactor. It worked by introducing CO2 into a bed of crushed shell. The lowered ph dissolved calcium carbonate into the water which was then introduced into the tank. Without this process the organisms in the tank would quickly consume all the available calcium and their growth would be stunted. I wonder if this process happens in the seas and to what extent?

Good question. My first guess would be river run off from limestone geology (hard water in domestic terms) replenishing the calcium in the seas.

Here you go: http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1985/7/85.07.08.x.html#c

paulf
08-09-2014, 11:28 AM
"It worked by introducing CO2 into a bed of crushed shell. The lowered ph dissolved calcium carbonate into the water which was then introduced into the tank. Without this process the organisms in the tank would quickly consume all the available calcium and their growth would be stunted."

If the pH is lowered, and the solution is not hyper saturated, the shells of the marine life will be dissolved, they will become the calcium in your generator.

Your aquarium had buffered water that resisted acidification from the introduction of a low pH hyper concentrated calcium solution. You did monitor the aquarium pH did you not?
If the pH in your aquarium was to low the organisms shells would dissolve. Your generator introduced calcium to the water without significantly lowering the pH of a buffered aquarium.

WX
08-09-2014, 05:14 PM
I love that poem. I memorized it in 5th grade and got a standing ovation at my recital.

I knew it by heart as well but not now, sadly.