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RodB
07-29-2014, 08:58 PM
Political debate on this forum mostly seems counterproductive but... now and then an issue comes to the forefront that simply has so much evidence for a particular political solution that none should be able to withstand the logic. I have debated the pros and cons of the illegal immigration problems on this forum and mostly received personal attacks for my trouble...

One commonly asked question by those with attitudes towards immigration strongly leaning in the direction of almost "open borders" is this.... "How do these illegal aliens negatively effect American's lives in reality...with the strong inference ... "likely...not at all".

I recently came across the following story and thought it was so poignant and so direct in hitting the so called "nail on the head" in illustrating the reality of this issue... that I thought it must be put forth in the vein of illumination in protecting our nation. This story speaks for itself and if you take the 20 minutes to read all of it, perhaps you might consider this issue under a different light.

The relevance of this story today is undeniable... and the situation today is much worse than when this was written... See additional links.

RodB

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/hitandrun_death_in_a_sanctuary.html







Other related links that together tell a more complete story that every American should be aware of.


http://www.fairus.org/issue/examples-of-serious-crimes-of-illegal-aliens

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tuberculosis-patient-tracked-down-in-california-arrested/

http://www.grassrootsofyakimavalley.com/rich_text_5.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/us/10license.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

http://www.fairus.org/issue/unlicensed-to-kill

Paul Pless
07-29-2014, 09:04 PM
But our modern welfare state creates perverse incentives for immigrants, incentives that cloud the issue of why people choose to come here. The real problem is not immigration, but rather the welfare state magnet. I was not aware that most illegal immigrants are large consumers of welfare or even largely eligible for welfare.

RodB
07-29-2014, 09:09 PM
I was not aware that most immigrants are large consumers of welfare or even largely eligible for welfare.

I have mentioned that fact several times ... Austin, Tx, a sanctuary city has scores of organizations that specifically help illegal aliens get government benefits and medical care.

R

Keith Wilson
07-29-2014, 09:11 PM
Excuse me, but what does that man's death, as unfortunate as it is, have to do with illegal immigration? There are about 1400 hit-and-run deaths in the US every year, and some 33,000 traffic deaths. Do you have any evidence that illegal immigrants are more likely to do this than other people? Absent that, it's just scare tactics.


. . . scores of organizations that specifically help illegal aliens get government benefits . . . Pardon my skepticism, but how do they do this? My understanding is that reasonably good proof of legal residency is required to get any kind of government benefits.

Paul Pless
07-29-2014, 09:11 PM
What federal or state benefits are illegal immigrants eligible for?

Shang
07-29-2014, 09:14 PM
I have mentioned that fact several times ... Austin, Tx, a sanctuary city has scores of organizations that specifically help illegal aliens get government benefits and medical care.

R

Unaffiliated "militia" groups armed with semi-automatic rifles, masks, camouflage and tactical gear have been spotted in the Texas Rio Grande Valley, protecting the U.S.-Mexico border, one can only assume, from the thousands of unaccompanied children who have fled record violence in their home countries in Central America.
Photos published by The San Antonio Express-News on Monday show dozens of members of more than 10 "active" groups walking around campsites, pointing rifles and pistols out of frame, and interacting with U.S. Border Patrol agents. The members' faces were blurred, by request of the group's spokesperson who provided the photos, because of their fear of being identified by "cartel and gang members."
The movement, called Operation Secure Our Border, was formed in response to the recent influx of undocumented immigrants. It includes members from the Three Percenters, Patriots and Oath Keepers, the latter of which was involved with Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy's tense standoff with the Bureau of Land Management earlier this year.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/29/armed-militias-border-crisis_n_5630763.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

jack grebe
07-29-2014, 09:18 PM
Save your breath......He's not prejudice........he hates "all" mexicans

Paul Pless
07-29-2014, 09:22 PM
Save your breath......He's not prejudice........he hates "all" mexicans
I don't believe that at all. I think Rod is merely blinded by partisanship. The current 'immigration crisis' is merely a convenient issue to attack Obama with.

Reynard38
07-29-2014, 09:24 PM
I have 2 friends that were hit by illegals who then attempted to flee the scene. Fortunately in both cases they were apprehended.
Of course they did not have insurance. Fortunately both my friends carried uninsured motorist protection. Thier rates went up following the accidents.
Several high profile accidents here in Atlanta have involved illegals who left the scene, including one that killed a teenage girl.

When I drove to Belize in 1997 I was warned not to drive at night in Mexico, in part due to the high number of drunk drivers on the road.

jack grebe
07-29-2014, 09:26 PM
Maybe, but if immigration were not illegal......................

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 09:26 PM
oh, shut up Rob... ya xenophobe

we'll get more life into this country with a transfusion of new blood than from the exsanguinations of all the old fogies put together

Paul Pless
07-29-2014, 09:26 PM
Fwiw, I'm not happy with the unsettled issues of illegal immigration and border security. Neither reps nor dems have approached it with any clearly defined long term solutions. Currently I think slightly less of the right than I do the left based on the right using it as a political football.

jack grebe
07-29-2014, 09:29 PM
When I drove to Belize in 1997 I was warned not to drive at night in Mexico, in part due to the high number of drunk drivers on the road.
Can you say, honestly, you have never driven, for what ever reason, when you should not have?


I can not.

Shang
07-29-2014, 09:30 PM
You will probably recolonize the border heroes..
they wear masks and shoot children.

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 09:31 PM
Can you say, honestly, you have never driven, for what ever reason, when you should not have?


I can not.

:) well, ya got me but it was a long time ago and anyway, I'm not sure it was me that was drivin

jack grebe
07-29-2014, 09:32 PM
If anyone here really thinks English starts north of the Rio, and Spanish
south of it, you are a fool.

Reynard38
07-29-2014, 09:33 PM
Can you say, honestly, you have never driven, for what ever reason, when you should not have?


I can not.

Yes, I can. Probably in part due to knowing that a DUI would have kept me from following the career path I chose, and would end the career that I now enjoy.

Back in college I was always the designated driver. I wasn't much of a drinker, my friends were.

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 09:34 PM
come on guys... wake up and spit out the hook

jack grebe
07-29-2014, 09:35 PM
:) well, ya got me but it was a long time ago and anyway, I'm not sure it was me that was drivin
For some, today will be a long time ago, doesn't make it right, but does make it part of life

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 09:35 PM
Yes, I can. Probably in part due to knowing that a DUI would have kept me from following the career path I chose, and would end the career that I now enjoy.

ya know, he didn't limit the 'shouldn't be driving' to DUI driving

RodB
07-29-2014, 09:35 PM
Excuse me, but what does that man's death, as unfortunate as it is, have to do with illegal immigration? There are about 1400 hit-and-run deaths in the US every year, and some 33,000 traffic deaths. Do you have any evidence that illegal immigrants are more likely to do this than other people? Absent that, it's just scare tactics.

Pardon my skepticism, but how do they do this? My understanding is that reasonably good proof of legal residency is required to get any kind of government benefits.

Read the entire article... The unfortunate death of the individual is simply the backbone of a well written and well researched piece on the many effects on a large city over run with a massive population of illegal aliens and the insidious way they negatively affect the American people. Read the entire article and perhaps check out a few of the links... if not... don't bother to comment as you obviously will never take a look at anything that may be contrary to your preconceived notions. I honestly do consider much written here simply to understand the rationale of the left... with some objectivity.

RodB

jack grebe
07-29-2014, 09:36 PM
Yes, I can. Probably in part due to knowing that a DUI would have kept me from following the career path I chose, and would end the career that I now enjoy.
So, you have never driven sick? tired? etc.????????

RodB
07-29-2014, 09:37 PM
Unaffiliated "militia" groups armed with semi-automatic rifles, masks, camouflage and tactical gear have been spotted in the Texas Rio Grande Valley, protecting the U.S.-Mexico border, one can only assume, from the thousands of unaccompanied children who have fled record violence in their home countries in Central America.
Photos published by The San Antonio Express-News on Monday show dozens of members of more than 10 "active" groups walking around campsites, pointing rifles and pistols out of frame, and interacting with U.S. Border Patrol agents. The members' faces were blurred, by request of the group's spokesperson who provided the photos, because of their fear of being identified by "cartel and gang members."
The movement, called Operation Secure Our Border, was formed in response to the recent influx of undocumented immigrants. It includes members from the Three Percenters, Patriots and Oath Keepers, the latter of which was involved with Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy's tense standoff with the Bureau of Land Management earlier this year.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/29/armed-militias-border-crisis_n_5630763.html?utm_hp_ref=politics


WTF ?

Goofy

R

Paul Pless
07-29-2014, 09:37 PM
Can you say, honestly, you have never driven, for what ever reason, when you should not have?


I can not.I've never driven illegally in another country. I mean I've never driven in another country that I was in illegally. Wait, I mean. . .

:D

jack grebe
07-29-2014, 09:40 PM
:DQUOTE=Paul Pless;4242016]I've never driven illegally in another country. I mean I've never driven in another country that I was in illegally. Wait, I mean. . .

[/QUOTE]
TFF........:d

hanleyclifford
07-29-2014, 09:40 PM
As usual the squishy lefties have no interest in the facts.

jack grebe
07-29-2014, 09:42 PM
As usual the squishy lefties have no interest in the facts.
Please define "squishy lefties"

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 09:44 PM
Please define "squishy lefties"

self-evident, Jack :)

Reynard38
07-29-2014, 09:46 PM
So, you have never driven sick? tired? etc.????????

Keep on fishin'
I thought the OP was about driving drunk.

And no. If I'm that tired I pull over in a rest area and take a nap, then get a truck stop Cappucino. Rode a motorcycle from Watkins Glen to Atlanta back in 2001. Took a nap on a picnic bench somewhere near Roanoke. Woke up and found a Waffle House before I finished the trip.
Get Home-itis has killed a lot of Drivers, Sailers and Pilots.

Sick? Yeah I drove with a cold. Does that count?

RodB
07-29-2014, 09:47 PM
Lots of responses within just a few minutes... so... responses with no one taking the time to read the article. What a bunch of ideological closed minded non-responses. I doubt anyone can read my posted links and not seriously reconsider their immigration views... without at least accepting the validity of the points made.

This forum is really becoming a complete waste of time to have any serious discussion on an issue. I am about done here.


R

Keith Wilson
07-29-2014, 09:47 PM
. . . a well written and well researched piece on the many effects on a large city over run with a massive population of illegal aliens and the insidious way they negatively affect the American people. Read the entire article . . . I did. There were a large number of breathless adjectives, some anecdotes about the death of Mr. Laufer, and essentially no data. It was opinion and invective, not researched at all. Bad-smelling fluff.

The NY times article was real journalism.

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 09:48 PM
I did. There were a large number of breathless adjectives, some anecdotes about the death of Mr. Laufer, and essentially no data. It was opinion and invective, not researched at all. Bad-smelling fluff.

I'll have you know... I didn't read no op

RodB
07-29-2014, 09:49 PM
I did. There were a large number of breathless adjectives, some anecdotes about the death of Mr. Laufer, and essentially no data. It was opinion and invective, not researched at all. Bad-smelling fluff.

The other links support most if not all of the general situation in such cities described by the article. I hate to bore you and I know you don't comment unless you have checked out a post to a reasonable extent.

RodB

Paul Pless
07-29-2014, 09:53 PM
Lots of responses within just a few minutes... so... responses with no one taking the time to read the article. What a bunch of ideological closed minded non-responses. I doubt anyone can read my posted links and not seriously reconsider their immigration views... without at least accepting the validity of the points made.

This forum is really becoming a complete waste of time to have any serious discussion on an issue. I am about done here.


R
I read the article, asked a question, which thus far has been ignored. . .

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 09:55 PM
I read the article, asked a question, which thus far has been ignored. . .


What federal or state benefits are illegal immigrants eligible for?

to not be deported without a hearing... maybe more

jack grebe
07-29-2014, 09:58 PM
Sorry Rod........yes, I did read. It could have been written by a native American about
some other "illegal" immigrant around 1493 if motor vehicles were about.

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 10:07 PM
I'm tellin ya, after it's all boiled down... we gain from the immigrants... stop worryin about them

RodB
07-29-2014, 10:10 PM
Keep on fishin'
I thought the OP was about driving drunk.

And no. If I'm that tired I pull over in a rest area and take a nap, then get a truck stop Cappucino. Rode a motorcycle from Watkins Glen to Atlanta back in 2001. Took a nap on a picnic bench somewhere near Roanoke. Woke up and found a Waffle House before I finished the trip.
Get Home-itis has killed a lot of Drivers, Sailers and Pilots.

Sick? Yeah I drove with a cold. Does that count?

The following from a friend of mine in Austin... today... He lives in the down town area and has lived there for the past 35 years.




Two years ago, the Arizona Daily Star took a close look at an epidemic of hit-and-runs in its own state. It concluded: “The states with the highest percentages of hit-and-runs among fatal crashes from 1994 to 2004 are also the states with the most illegal immigrants.”

In Austin, police say motorists flee accidents for a variety of reasons, including that they've got immigration problems, were drinking, or because they have no motor vehicle insurance; an estimated one-in-five Texas motorists drive without the required insurance. Other motorists may flee simply because they “just don't like the police,” Det. Francois remarked.

Aside from what motivates hit-and-run drivers, there can be little doubt that Austin's Hispanic culture -- not known for its civic engagement values -- is a significant driver of the hit-and-run epidemic. “Of 3,007 drunken driving arrests in 2002, 43 percent involved Hispanic men, even though they make up only about 11 percent of Austin's driving population,” reported the American-Statesman, citing police statistics. "Hispanics made up 47 percent of the DWI arrests but only 21 percent of Austin drivers.”

According to the article, young Hispanic and Mexican men tend to drink more heavily than non-Hispanic men when they drink; and many Mexican men are unaware that penalties for drunk driving in the U.S. are stricter than in Mexico. Raul Caetano, a professor and assistant dean at the University of Texas School of Public Health in Dallas, told the paper: "The profile of a drunk driver in California is a young Hispanic male, and I bet you have a similar situation all over the Southwest."




My friend, (who is well acquainted with numerous political officials and BTW a staunch liberal ) told me the following. A trend has been noticed in recent years in Austin that in a significant number of hit and run deaths the drivers are hispanic illegals and they just leave the scene and their car and go back to Mexico... then come back later on under another name. The car is abandoned... and they leave and are not caught. There have been an amazing amount of these deaths under these exact conditions in the recent past ... 22 hit and run deaths like this in Austin since Sept 2013 ...source "The Chronicle" a local Austin Paper.

The links I posted originally back all of this up.

R

RodB
07-29-2014, 10:16 PM
What federal or state benefits are illegal immigrants eligible for?

Multiple legal organizations are in Austin, a sanctuary city, and they help illegal aliens get a food subsidy and of course the city funded free clinics. The free clinics are swamped continuously by illegals.

Most illegals pay for a social security number and then can use it to scam more stuff and I am not well versed enough on the particulars with a fake SS # but will filed out more.

R

hanleyclifford
07-29-2014, 10:18 PM
The following from a friend of mine in Austin... today... He lives in the down town area and has lived there for the past 35 years.





My friend, (who is well acquainted with numerous political officials and BTW a staunch liberal ) told me the following. A trend has been noticed in recent years in Austin that in a significant number of hit and run deaths the drivers are hispanic illegals and they just leave the scene and their car and go back to Mexico... then come back later on under another name. The car is abandoned... and they leave and are not caught. There have been an amazing amount of these deaths under these exact conditions in the recent past ... 22 hit and run deaths like this in Austin since Sept 2013 ...source "The Chronicle" a local Austin Paper.

The links I posted originally back all of this up.

R




But Rod, all these illegal aliens represent potential voters for the socialist nanny state agenda the left would like to impose. If this hit and run involved white rednecks running down hispanics or blacks you can be sure the Bilge would be ablaze in righteous indignation.

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 10:19 PM
Multiple legal organizations are in Austin, a sanctuary city, and they help illegal aliens get a food subsidy and of course the city funded free clinics. The free clinics are swamped continuously by illegals.

Most illegals pay for a social security number and then can use it to scam more stuff and I am not well versed enough on the particulars with a fake SS # but will filed out more.

R

ya know, if ya had a magic button and could take away ALL of Austin's illegals, it would still be mostly Hispanic... get a grip

RodB
07-29-2014, 10:23 PM
I'm tellin ya, after it's all boiled down... we gain from the immigrants... stop worryin about them

The truth is that Obama is trying to change the demographics of the country as much as possible before he exits office. If Texas turns blue... the Dems can stay in power forever... there is an agenda here. Texas, Florida, Calif, New York.... wins every time...


R

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 10:26 PM
The truth is that Obama is trying to change the demographics of the country as much as possible before he exits office. If Texas turns blue... the Dems can stay in power forever... there is an agenda here. Texas, Florida, Calif, New York.... wins every time...


R

then tell the GOP to kick out all the bible belt extremists and welcome the new blood... at least they don't go around blowing up churchs and wearing white sheets

Canoeyawl
07-29-2014, 10:26 PM
Lots of responses within just a few minutes... so... responses with no one taking the time to read the article.

This forum is really becoming a complete waste of time to have any serious discussion on an issue. I am about done here.

R

So, it's working then?

RodB
07-29-2014, 10:30 PM
ya know, if ya had a magic button and could take away ALL of Austin's illegals, it would still be mostly Hispanic... get a grip

Thats not true... over 250,000 illegals in Austin now... about 500,000 hispanics total. There are lots of negatives with such a massive illegal alien population and the first one is the cost to the state and its citizens.

Hell, I married a lovely hispanic teacher when I was about 24... most Texans are not worried about hispanics..... I have lived with them all my life. Love their women...and even have a few friends that are hispanic... the problem is the flood of illegals in recent years....

Look at it this way... take anywhere USA... a town with say 100,000 people many middle class, educated... and drop 20, 000 illegal aliens into the town with no education and they cannot speak english...and they have no respect for our laws... some have diseases and many are criminals and past gang members... hows it looking so far? Perhaps not a good situation for the citizens wouldn't ya think?



R

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 10:36 PM
Oh, please... stop speaking in absolutes... 'all' have no education, 'all' are sick, 'all' are car thieves, 'all are sponging off the government and 'all' the rest... get a grip, please

Glen Longino
07-29-2014, 10:43 PM
[QUOTE=RodB;4242084]Thats not true... over 250,000 illegals in Austin now... about 500,000 total. There are lots of negatives with such a massive illegal alien population and the first one is the cost to the state and its citizens.

Hell, I married a lovely hispanic teacher when I was about 24... most Texans are not worried about hispanics..... I have lived with them all my life. Love their women...and even have a few friends that are hispanic... the problem is the flood of illegals in recent years....

Look at it this way... take anywhere USA... a town with say 100,000 people many middle class, educated... and drop 20, 000 illegal aliens into the town with no education and they cannot speak english...and they have no respect for our laws... some have diseases and many are criminals and past gang members... hows it looking so far? Perhaps not a good situation for the citizens wouldn't ya think?



It must be hellish living in constant fear.
I feel for you, Rod, but I can't quite reach you.
You need to get professional help...and take hanleyclifford with you!

Phillip Allen
07-29-2014, 10:47 PM
[QUOTE=RodB;4242084]Thats not true... over 250,000 illegals in Austin now... about 500,000 total. There are lots of negatives with such a massive illegal alien population and the first one is the cost to the state and its citizens.

Hell, I married a lovely hispanic teacher when I was about 24... most Texans are not worried about hispanics..... I have lived with them all my life. Love their women...and even have a few friends that are hispanic... the problem is the flood of illegals in recent years....

Look at it this way... take anywhere USA... a town with say 100,000 people many middle class, educated... and drop 20, 000 illegal aliens into the town with no education and they cannot speak english...and they have no respect for our laws... some have diseases and many are criminals and past gang members... hows it looking so far? Perhaps not a good situation for the citizens wouldn't ya think?



It must be hellish living in constant fear.
I feel for you, Rod, but I can't quite reach you.
You need to get professional help...and take hanleyclifford with you!

you're just as bad, Glen... all you do is try to take cheap shots and fail at that too... there's got to be more for you than trying to put down everyone you don't agree with... you never have much to add except the raspberry

Glen Longino
07-29-2014, 11:09 PM
[QUOTE=Glen Longino;4242095]

you're just as bad, Glen... all you do is try to take cheap shots and fail at that too... there's got to be more for you than trying to put down everyone you don't agree with... you never have much to add except the raspberry

fart

Glen Longino
07-29-2014, 11:46 PM
Lots of responses within just a few minutes... so... responses with no one taking the time to read the article. What a bunch of ideological closed minded non-responses. I doubt anyone can read my posted links and not seriously reconsider their immigration views... without at least accepting the validity of the points made.

This forum is really becoming a complete waste of time to have any serious discussion on an issue. I am about done here.


R

"I am about done here."

:)Ha! You're just getting warmed up!
A herd of wild horses could not drag you out of here and you know it!

hanleyclifford
07-30-2014, 12:18 AM
"I am about done here."

:)Ha! You're just getting warmed up!
A herd of wild horses could not drag you out of here and you know it! Just be careful where you drive down there, Glen; we don't want to hear about you on the six o'clock news.

RodB
07-30-2014, 12:47 AM
This is a good example of what unfettered immigration can do....

R


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tuberculosis-patient-tracked-down-in-california-arrested/

Tuberculosis patient tracked down in California, arrested


Prosecutors in California said they have obtained an arrest warrant for Eduardo Rosas Cruz. They say the 25-year-old diagnosed with tuberculosis is contagious and has refused treatment, putting those around him at risk. SAN JOAQUIN COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE/AP

FRESNO, Calif. - A California man who was charged after refusing treatment for his tuberculosis (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-seek-man-who-refused-tuberculosis-treatment/) was found and arrested, a prosecutor said Tuesday.
Eduardo Rosas Cruz, 25, was arrested late Monday in Kern County, San Joaquin County Deputy District Attorney Stephen Taylor said. Before Rosas Cruz can be sent back to San Joaquin County, he has to be medically cleared, which could take weeks, Taylor said.
Authorities last week obtained an arrest warrant for Rosas Cruz, saying he was diagnosed with tuberculosis in March after going to San Joaquin General Hospital's emergency room with a severe cough.
Medical staff at the hospital told him to stay in a Stockton motel room, where a health worker would deliver his medication and watch him take it. But officials say he left.
Rosas Cruz is a transient and comes from an area of Mexico known for a drug-resistant strain of TB, authorities said.
He was arrested on the San Joaquin County warrant during a traffic stop in Lamont, a community about 15 miles southeast of Bakersfield, said Ray Pruitt, a spokesman for the Kern County Sheriff's Office. Officers took him to the Kern Medical Center in Bakersfield.
TB can spread through the air when an infected person coughs or sneezes. The disease can be deadly.
Taylor said the goal of prosecuting a tuberculosis patient through the criminal courts is not to punish him, but to protect the public. He said Rosas Cruz refused to cooperate with officials.
"When somebody has behaved like this, it's time to go in-patient," Taylor said.
In court papers filed in support of the warrant, public health officials said Rosas Cruz resisted treatment from the start. He also used crack cocaine and methamphetamine, officials said, adding that he could develop the drug-resistant strain if he hasn't already.
By law, health officials can't force a patient to be treated for tuberculosis, but officials can use the courts to isolate him from the public. That is when officials offer treatment.

© 2014 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Phillip Allen
07-30-2014, 01:40 AM
so... every one from Mexico has TB. What next? That's akin to yelling that everyone with a gun shoots children in a school

Peerie Maa
07-30-2014, 06:10 AM
But Rod, all these illegal aliens represent potential voters for the socialist nanny state agenda the left would like to impose. If this hit and run involved white rednecks running down hispanics or blacks you can be sure the Bilge would be ablaze in righteous indignation.

I seem to remember that the bilge was ablaze with indignation when some rednecks dragged a black behind their truck for miles leaving a trail of body parts.
Criminal drivers cross all races.

BrianW
07-30-2014, 06:57 AM
Oh, please... stop speaking in absolutes... 'all' have no education, 'all' are sick, 'all' are car thieves, 'all are sponging off the government and 'all' the rest... get a grip, please

Would this be an "absolute" Phillip?..


I'm tellin ya, after it's all boiled down... we gain from the immigrants... stop worryin about them

I've noticed you stopped using the word "illegal" when referring to these immigrants. I think we all can agree a influx of legal immigration is good for the USA. Unfortunately, that's not the topic of this thread.

There really is no legitimate arguement to support illegal immigration. It's illegal. For a reason. There is a process that while not perfect, and certainly available for improvement, that is legal. That's the correct route to take.

RonW
07-30-2014, 07:17 AM
I've noticed you stopped using the word "illegal" when referring to these immigrants. I think we all can agree a influx of legal immigration is good for the USA. Unfortunately, that's not the topic of this thread.

There really is no legitimate arguement to support illegal immigration. It's illegal. For a reason. There is a process that while not perfect, and certainly available for improvement, that is legal. That's the correct route to take.

Yea I noticed that to, kinda thought maybe keith was writing using phillip's name........

But maybe this should be by far more important then the uninsured motorist distraction..

Paul Press asks --
What federal or state benefits are illegal immigrants eligible for?

So do these Illegals get food stamps? Free medical ? Rent subsidizes ? Other welfare benefits ? free education ? and the list goes on.........

John Smith
07-30-2014, 07:40 AM
I have 2 friends that were hit by illegals who then attempted to flee the scene. Fortunately in both cases they were apprehended.
Of course they did not have insurance. Fortunately both my friends carried uninsured motorist protection. Thier rates went up following the accidents.
Several high profile accidents here in Atlanta have involved illegals who left the scene, including one that killed a teenage girl.

When I drove to Belize in 1997 I was warned not to drive at night in Mexico, in part due to the high number of drunk drivers on the road.

According to AAA,20% of the fatal car accidents are caused by unlicensed drivers. Some, but far from all, of those unlicensed drivers may be illegal aliens.

The way to stop this is technology. Let's start making cars that won't start without a valid license.

I get a somewhat steady stream of emails telling me about illegal aliens collecting Social Security. With very few exceptions, no one collects social security without having paid into it. I also got emails over the years telling me that members of congress have some "super" exclusive health insurance, when, in fact, they got the same FEHB I have.

I see a new bill may actually pass the house, giving Obama much less funding than he had asked for to address the problem of the children, and the new bill requires most of the money to be spent on border security, which will do NOTHING insofar as unaccompanied children are concerned.

Most of the house members today were in the house in '08 and voted for the law that dictates we hand these children as we are. Once again they pass a law they refuse to fund.

John Smith
07-30-2014, 07:43 AM
Fwiw, I'm not happy with the unsettled issues of illegal immigration and border security. Neither reps nor dems have approached it with any clearly defined long term solutions. Currently I think slightly less of the right than I do the left based on the right using it as a political football.

Border seems to be more secure than its ever been. This president has been deporting record numbers of people.

This situation is very much like the right complaining about the deficit growing when, in fact, it is shrinking.

Taking a different look, I wonder if we legalized drugs how much of a change it would make in this area.

John Smith
07-30-2014, 07:47 AM
So, you have never driven sick? tired? etc.????????

I got pulled over one night. Very nice cop felt I was either drunk or tired. I admitted to the latter; it had been a very long day. He realized I wasn't drunk. I was 5 minutes from home. He had me get out of the car and we just talked for a couple of minutes. Then he let me continue. I have no idea what he would had done if I still had any distance to go.

John Smith
07-30-2014, 07:49 AM
As usual the squishy lefties have no interest in the facts.

Please define "facts".

John Smith
07-30-2014, 07:50 AM
Lots of responses within just a few minutes... so... responses with no one taking the time to read the article. What a bunch of ideological closed minded non-responses. I doubt anyone can read my posted links and not seriously reconsider their immigration views... without at least accepting the validity of the points made.

This forum is really becoming a complete waste of time to have any serious discussion on an issue. I am about done here.


R

You'd rather be killed by a drunk driver whose a legal citizen?

BrianW
07-30-2014, 07:53 AM
Border seems to be more secure than its ever been. This president has been deporting record numbers of people.

Seems a bit contradictory to me. ;)

John Smith
07-30-2014, 07:57 AM
I'm tellin ya, after it's all boiled down... we gain from the immigrants... stop worryin about them

We've come through, and are still going through, a very bad economic period. This brings forth the 'blame' factor. This is a disease that mostly impact the politically right brain. They like to blame someone. We have seen teachers blamed for the loss of private sector jobs. We've seen police blamed. Firefighters blamed. Blaming illegal immigrants is part of the same blame game.

NOBODY SUPPORTS ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. That said, let's be clear about a couple of things. These children that frighten so many on the right are being handled according to the law. The people who passed that law now won't supply the funding needed to enforce it. Then they will complain when it is either not enforced or Obama tries to enforce it via executive orders.

This nation, by a significant majority according to the polls, want our immigration laws changed. It is the Republican controlled house that has dropped the ball here. The senate passed a bill. Rubio liked it, then didn't like it, now likes it again. The house won't deal with it.

Those here who don't like the law, blame the people in congress who supported it, the president (Bush) who signed it, and the house who won't consider changing or funding it.

John Smith
07-30-2014, 07:59 AM
The following from a friend of mine in Austin... today... He lives in the down town area and has lived there for the past 35 years.





My friend, (who is well acquainted with numerous political officials and BTW a staunch liberal ) told me the following. A trend has been noticed in recent years in Austin that in a significant number of hit and run deaths the drivers are hispanic illegals and they just leave the scene and their car and go back to Mexico... then come back later on under another name. The car is abandoned... and they leave and are not caught. There have been an amazing amount of these deaths under these exact conditions in the recent past ... 22 hit and run deaths like this in Austin since Sept 2013 ...source "The Chronicle" a local Austin Paper.

The links I posted originally back all of this up.

R






If they leave the scene and aren't caught, how the hell do you know who they are or what their status is?

John Smith
07-30-2014, 08:00 AM
Multiple legal organizations are in Austin, a sanctuary city, and they help illegal aliens get a food subsidy and of course the city funded free clinics. The free clinics are swamped continuously by illegals.

Most illegals pay for a social security number and then can use it to scam more stuff and I am not well versed enough on the particulars with a fake SS # but will filed out more.

R

That sentence I changed to red is one you need to prove. You saying it doesn't make it so.

John Smith
07-30-2014, 08:01 AM
But Rod, all these illegal aliens represent potential voters for the socialist nanny state agenda the left would like to impose. If this hit and run involved white rednecks running down hispanics or blacks you can be sure the Bilge would be ablaze in righteous indignation.

Illegals don't vote. Only citizens vote.

John Smith
07-30-2014, 08:02 AM
The truth is that Obama is trying to change the demographics of the country as much as possible before he exits office. If Texas turns blue... the Dems can stay in power forever... there is an agenda here. Texas, Florida, Calif, New York.... wins every time...


R

How, exactly, compared to Reagan?

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 08:04 AM
The truth is that Obama is trying to change the demographics of the country as much as possible before he exits office. Ah, here it is! Pay attention to this, ladies and gentlemen, for here we glimpse the idea behind Rod and Ron's - and by extension the US right wing's - hysteria about illegal immigration. While the idea that Obama is somehow trying to encourage illegal immigration in order to change the demographics of the US is completely ludicrous, purest tinfoil-hat raving, there's some truth behind the madness.

The US is indeed becoming less white, and also less black-and-white, than it has been for a long time. The large number of immigrants over the last 50 years have largely been from somewhere other than Europe. We are now approaching the multi-ethnic stew we were 100 years ago, except instead of all over Europe, the immigrants come from the whole world. Instead of speaking Italian and Polish and German and Yiddish and Norwegian, they speak Spanish and Hindi and Quechua and Somali and Gujarati and Mandarin and Hmong. They're mostly not 'white' in the old definition of the word, and they mostly don't vote for people like Ted Cruz and Rick Perry.

When I say that there aren't enough angry old white southern evangelical conservative men to win elections anymore, Rod knows in his heart that if it isn't true right now, it will be soon. They'll never admit it, but it scares folks like him shi!tless. And he's right - the US will not ever again be like it was in 1965 when the population of immigrants was at a 100-year low. The difference is that I think this is mostly a good thing; I think immigrants make us a stronger and better country, and blurring the traditional black-white divide in the US is a huge improvement. (Also, I've lived in Central America, speak Spanish, and in general feel pretty good about Latin Americans.)

Claiming it's some kind of plot by Obama is complete madness, obviously, but the long-term trends are clear, and it is a very real change. They can't quite bring themselves to denounce the hordes of brown-skinned foreigners polluting our country, at least not in public, hence the fear gets displaced into anti-illegal immigration and anti-Muslim rhetoric, into fear-mongering over hit-and-run accidents or drug-resistant TB or similar tripe - real problems, but not what really motivates. The real problem is that people like Rod are not a majority anymore.

John Smith
07-30-2014, 08:06 AM
Seems a bit contradictory to me. ;)

Why?

John Smith
07-30-2014, 08:09 AM
Ah, here it is. Pay attention to this, ladies and gentlemen, for here we glimpse the idea behind Rod and Ron's - and by extension the US right wing's - hysteria about illegal immigration. While the idea that Obama is somehow trying to encourage illegal immigration in order to change the demographics of the US is completely ludicrous, purest tinfoil-hat raving, there's some truth behind the madness.

The US is indeed becoming less white, and also less black-and-white, than it has been for a long time. The large number of immigrants over the last 50 years have largely been from somewhere other than Europe. We are now approaching the multi-ethnic stew we were 100 years ago, except instead of all over Europe, the immigrants come from the whole world. Instead of speaking Italian and Polish and German and Yiddish and Norwegian, they speak Spanish and Hindi and Quechua and Somali and Gujarati and Mandarin and Hmong. They're mostly not 'white' in the old definition of the word, and they don't vote for people like Ted Cruz and Rick Perry.

When I say that there aren't enough angry old white southern evangelical conservative men to win elections anymore, Rod knows in his heart that if it isn't true right now, it will be soon. They'll never admit it, but it scares folks like him shi!tless. And he's right - the US will not ever again be like it was in 1965 when the population of immigrants was at a 100-year low. The difference is that I think this is mostly a good thing; I think immigrants make us a stronger and better country, and blurring the traditional black-white divide in the US is a huge improvement. Claiming it's some kind of plot by Obama is complete madness, obviously, but the long-term trends are clear, and it is a very real change. They can't quite be bring themselves to denounce the hordes of brown-skinned foreigners polluting our country, at least not in public, hence the fear gets displaced into anti-illegal immigration and anti-Muslim rhetoric.
As I recall the "autopsy", the GOP knows this is happening. That's why they set out to be more appealing to women, blacks, Hispanics, etc. They can't seem to get their votes to line up with the image they want to create.

They'll claim to support women, then put together a committee of old white men to look into women's issues.

stevebaby
07-30-2014, 08:20 AM
[QUOTE=Phillip Allen;4242098]

fartDue to the wonders of the internet, I have done an analysis of this post and found an unacceptable level of solid content.
Glen, Glen, Glen...you know what the doctor said..."If you don't drink your beer prescription you don't get the medical marijuana."

If you drink the daily case of beer prescribed for you, your output will have the correct amount of liquid content in your flatus.

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 08:54 AM
A little data. Remember that 1960-1970 was when those born in around 1950, the postwar baby boom generation, were coming of age. It's what they consider normal.

http://mkn.research.pdx.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Figure1-1024x585.png

RonW
07-30-2014, 08:55 AM
Keith Wilson thinks so he says --


Ah, here it is! Pay attention to this, ladies and gentlemen, for here we glimpse the idea behind Rod and Ron's - and by extension the US right wing's - hysteria about illegal immigration. While the idea that Obama is somehow trying to encourage illegal immigration in order to change the demographics of the US is completely ludicrous, purest tinfoil-hat raving, there's some truth behind the madness.
The US is indeed becoming less white, and also less black-and-white, than it has been for a long time
When I say that there aren't enough angry old white southern evangelical conservative men to win elections anymore, Rod knows in his heart that if it isn't true right now, it will be soon. They'll never admit it, but it scares folks like him shi!tless..

So according to Keith this is nothing more then a racist issue...............what Krapt, and I use to think you where smarter then that, but I guess I was wrong..

So here are a few facts for you to think on keith...

There are 300 million plus americans, the world has over 7 billion people, or about 23 times more then what lives in america...

So let's just open the borders to all the poor people who want to come here for a better life, and let's add maybe 100 million more people to america over the next 20 years or so..

Now where are all these people going to live ? Oh I know the government will build them apartment complexes with your new increased tax dollar.
And where are they going to work, well they can have your job.

But more important what about water, the whole west is in a water shortage at this time, and then what about all this sewage ? Yep more taxes to build more sewage plants.
And what about the electric grid ? And what about the increase of food production to feed all the new found americans ? And then there is the whole highway system, hey didn't we just have a thread on raising gas taxes to cover highways and bridges that need rebuilt ?
And we need to build more schools, jails and court houses and on and on......

What amazes me is a native born american that is silly enough not to understand that a nation has to have secured borders and enforced immigration regulations...

And you might want to think a little on how this country did not become #1 by accident........

TomF
07-30-2014, 09:31 AM
Ron,

Of course people having a hard time on their present bit of the planet want to move to places with more opportunity - that's been the story driving every human migration since our species started to venture out of Africa. Typically, the more adventurous and entrepreneurial are the ones who pick up and leave too, which if you think about it, improves the gene pool in their destinations.

Every bloody country in the West has been speaking out of both sides of our mouths on immigration - we're competing mightily for the elite, and doing our level best to hold off the people whose economic and education "inputs" ... well, look like the ones my forbears brought to Canada with them 2-4 generations ago.

But my poor and uneducated forbears have been pretty damned good bets, as it turned out. My family tree since folks stepped off those boats includes a Nobel laureate in economics, founding partner of what is still one of Western Canada's pre-eminent law firms, a founder of a university's school of physical therapy, and a national award winning composer and musical director ... to say nothing of a raft of less prominent folks who've simply enriched their communities, championed work for the poor, etc.. Some served in our armed forces too, during the Wars. (FWIW, my family tree also includes a few drunks, a guy suspected of molesting his step-daughters, and an aunt who hears Jesus talking to her through her car radio periodically ... :D)

My people arrived here dirt poor, with no education, but with detemination, hope, and a willingness to roll up their sleeves. They love this place fiercely, which gave them the opportunity to build something for themselves and their families. In that, they're no different, I suspect, than most of the family trees we could describe here on the forum.

And most of our ancestors are essentially no different from the people who now want to move here - and who face legal roadblocks so significant that some are willing to risk an illegal route for the sake of their own opportunities, and securing opportunity for their families.

It is shameful that we - Canada too - are so able to forget who we were that we deny the same opportunity to so many.

Bubba L.
07-30-2014, 09:35 AM
From the article: “Latinos” it states,

"...will most likely side with each other than an outsider. An individual will assist family members and friends regardless of the consequences, and expect the same in return. A sense of honor is so important in Latino culture, that it may keep an individual from cooperating with the police against a friend or family members, even though he or she may not condone any of the actions."

What this doesn't say is that all groups do this to protect against what they consider outsiders. Family against family, black against white, white against black, Asian against white... police against civilians...

As for hit and runs, or other crimes for that matter, I was riding my motorcycle two years ago in Mandeville, La when I came upon the scene of a hit and run of a motorcyclist by an SUV. The driver appears to have panicked and fled but later turned himself in. He happened to be black, so by your argument black people negatively impact the United States.

The article is biased to the point of being misleading and gives more attention to the victims political beliefs than to facts about the accident.

Net result: no evidence that illegal or legal immigrants/migrants have any impact on the United States that any other group. Keep in mind Rod that I'm not saying that they don't, just that you still haven't proved your point. To prove you're point you need to offer evidence showing that illegals cause problems that legals don't. Does it make sense when I put it that way?

Gene

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 09:38 AM
So according to Keith this is nothing more than a racist issue . . . No. I did NOT say that. (Perhaps "The wicked flee where no man pursueth"? :d ) Racism as such in the US, the kind that supported the system of legal segregation in the US south in the first part of the 20th century, is a relic of slavery, and is diminishing, although it's surprisingly persistent . The 'scientific' variety from some 100 years ago is a relic of European Imperialism (The White Man's Burden (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/kipling.asp)) and is also fading as that era recedes. Not gone yet, but going. However, racism is a subset of xenophobia, the fear, dislike, and distrust of those different from ourselves. This is hard-wired into human beings to some extent (as is xenophilia, the attraction to the exotic, competing opposite tendencies) and is not going away as long as we're human. There's nothing inherently wrong with preferring one's own culture; it's necessary to some degree. US nativism is more a cultural thing than racist as such.

But there's a very, very deep mistake in post #73. The mistake is that immigrants contribute nothing; that they come here and take what we have, leaving us with less. The specious argument applies to any immigrant, whether they're here legally or not. It's total bullsh!t, the complete opposite of the truth. It has been proven to be bullsh!t so many times over the past 200 years that I'm utterly amazed that the idea still lives, but truly bad ideas sometimes seem to be immortal. While the US can obviously not absorb billions of people, we can certainly absorb immigrants. Nobody sane argues that we should let anyone in who wants to come; that's a prototypical straw man argument. The truth, which has been demonstrated over and over and over again throughout US history, is that on average, immigrants make us a better and stronger country, and that they contribute far more than they take.

You may not believe this, but it's still carved on the base of the Statue of Liberty.


The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

RodB
07-30-2014, 10:24 AM
Border seems to be more secure than its ever been. This president has been deporting record numbers of people.

This situation is very much like the right complaining about the deficit growing when, in fact, it is shrinking.

Taking a different look, I wonder if we legalized drugs how much of a change it would make in this area.

Tap the brakes on your BS...

If you watched any reports on the border you would know its anything but secure. Denial is not an argument. The President has not been deporting record numbers ... you are acting like a part of the left wing propaganda machine. The Obama administration is counting all those illegals who are caught and immediately returned to mexico. Past administrations never counted these...So....here again we have a case of the Obama administration "cooking the book" to dishonestly reflect the facts. No one can believe anything put out by this administration.

RodB

RonW
07-30-2014, 10:26 AM
Keith -
But there's a very, very deep mistake in post #73. The mistake is that immigrants contribute nothing; that they come here and take what we have, leaving us with less.

I never said no such thing.........Bottom line is that all nations have a right to secured borders and to who if anyone can come in......the immigrants do not get to dictate the immigration policies of a nation that they wish to migrate to.......the citizens of that nation dictate the policies of immigration..if they even want any immigration..


You may not believe this, but it's still carved on the base of the Statue of Liberty.

Not it is not.........it is a plaque that was added on to the statue , not carved in............

TomF -
(FWIW, my family tree also includes a few drunks, a guy suspected of molesting his step-daughters, and an aunt who hears Jesus talking to her through her car radio periodically ... )

There you go............we don't need no jesus freaks, we already have enough..

RodB
07-30-2014, 10:28 AM
We've come through, and are still going through, a very bad economic period. This brings forth the 'blame' factor. This is a disease that mostly impact the politically right brain. They like to blame someone. We have seen teachers blamed for the loss of private sector jobs. We've seen police blamed. Firefighters blamed. Blaming illegal immigrants is part of the same blame game.

NOBODY SUPPORTS ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. That said, let's be clear about a couple of things. These children that frighten so many on the right are being handled according to the law. The people who passed that law now won't supply the funding needed to enforce it. Then they will complain when it is either not enforced or Obama tries to enforce it via executive orders.

This nation, by a significant majority according to the polls, want our immigration laws changed. It is the Republican controlled house that has dropped the ball here. The senate passed a bill. Rubio liked it, then didn't like it, now likes it again. The house won't deal with it.

Those here who don't like the law, blame the people in congress who supported it, the president (Bush) who signed it, and the house who won't consider changing or funding it.

You continue to misrepresent the facts.... the majority of people being for immigration reform does not mean they are for the unfettered illegal immigration you support. The new bill you describe will be a good approach to the current problem...but with Obama's lack of compromise... I doubt it will pass. Not long ago, he said he would support changing the 2008 law... now he has changed his mind... I wonder why? Perhaps an agenda is underway.



R

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 10:47 AM
For RodB:
Originally posted by RodB, #79:

. . . the unfettered illegal immigration you support. Why do you keep repeating this nonsense? Almost nobody is for 'unfettered illegal immigration'. I'm certainly not, and AFAIK nobody here has said they were. Straw man fallacy (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html).

Care to expand on this? Evidence? The slightest shred of supporting evidence?


Originally posted by RodB, #42:

The truth is that Obama is trying to change the demographics of the country as much as possible before he exits office.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________

For RonW:


Originally posted by me, #76:

But there's a very, very deep mistake in post #73. The mistake is that immigrants contribute nothing; that they come here and take what we have, leaving us with less.
Originally posted by RonW, $#78:

I never said no such thing......
Originally posted by RonW, #73:

Now where are all these people going to live ? Oh I know the government will build them apartment complexes with your new increased tax dollar. And where are they going to work, well they can have your job.

But more important what about water, the whole west is in a water shortage at this time, and then what about all this sewage ? Yep more taxes to build more sewage plants.
And what about the electric grid ? And what about the increase of food production to feed all the new found Americans ? And then there is the whole highway system, hey didn't we just have a thread on raising gas taxes to cover highways and bridges that need rebuilt ?
And we need to build more schools, jails and court houses and on and on......

RonW
07-30-2014, 10:58 AM
Hey Keith, you are taking bits and pieces from Rod with a B post and pieces from Ron with a W post and putting them together.......

got to keep them separate and stay on the same thought...

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 11:13 AM
Ill rearrange the post. I'm not mixing arguments, but the order I put it in could be confusing.

RodB
07-30-2014, 11:35 AM
Ah, here it is! Pay attention to this, ladies and gentlemen, for here we glimpse the idea behind Rod and Ron's - and by extension the US right wing's - hysteria about illegal immigration. While the idea that Obama is somehow trying to encourage illegal immigration in order to change the demographics of the US is completely ludicrous, purest tinfoil-hat raving, there's some truth behind the madness.

The US is indeed becoming less white, and also less black-and-white, than it has been for a long time. The large number of immigrants over the last 50 years have largely been from somewhere other than Europe. We are now approaching the multi-ethnic stew we were 100 years ago, except instead of all over Europe, the immigrants come from the whole world. Instead of speaking Italian and Polish and German and Yiddish and Norwegian, they speak Spanish and Hindi and Quechua and Somali and Gujarati and Mandarin and Hmong. They're mostly not 'white' in the old definition of the word, and they mostly don't vote for people like Ted Cruz and Rick Perry.

When I say that there aren't enough angry old white southern evangelical conservative men to win elections anymore, Rod knows in his heart that if it isn't true right now, it will be soon. They'll never admit it, but it scares folks like him shi!tless. And he's right - the US will not ever again be like it was in 1965 when the population of immigrants was at a 100-year low. The difference is that I think this is mostly a good thing; I think immigrants make us a stronger and better country, and blurring the traditional black-white divide in the US is a huge improvement. (Also, I've lived in Central America, speak Spanish, and in general feel pretty good about Latin Americans.)

Claiming it's some kind of plot by Obama is complete madness, obviously, but the long-term trends are clear, and it is a very real change. They can't quite bring themselves to denounce the hordes of brown-skinned foreigners polluting our country, at least not in public, hence the fear gets displaced into anti-illegal immigration and anti-Muslim rhetoric, into fear-mongering over hit-and-run accidents or drug-resistant TB or similar tripe - real problems, but not what really motivates. The real problem is that people like Rod are not a majority anymore.

First...its long been established that the democrats pander to hispanics to get their votes and to increase their voting bloc.... the Obama administration is a political animal above all else... and from the beginning of his first campaign everything has been about increasing a long term voting bloc and staying in power forever. PERIOD! A constant war on Republicans has also been right up there in priorities with lots of false propaganda. This has involved lots promises to lots of poor folks with ... "Vote for us and we will give you more stuff"... as the catch phrase. The Obama administration does nothing without a political goal.

Second... tell me how a massive illegal alien invasion is good for the country when almost 100% of them are uneducated, unskilled, and over 50% will be on the government doll... PLUS... the costs to our citizens... SEE BELOW LINKS.

For a reasonably intelligent guy who usually tends to do his homework on issues...you sure miss the boat on this illegal immigration issue. The most repulsive part of your schtick is where you project some sort of fear on Americans who simply want our laws enforced. I too have lived around hispanics all of my life....I married one in my twenties. You have no fricking idea what experiences or "mindsets" other people have but that doesn't stop you from spewing a ridiculous opinion from your ivory tower of pompous elitism.

Texas will be majority hispanic soon if not already ... so F_ing what? http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/jan/23/george-p-bush/george-p-bush-says-texas-will-be-majority-hispanic/

They are Americans... just like you and I... and they can achieve anything they want if they work hard and get an education... whether the education is a trades skill or academic. I posted a good article on this recently that showed the stats on hispanics working on higher education were significantly going up. Like immigrants in our past history.... they improve their lives and the country is better off for it. How about pulling back on the negative narrative you project about the right... most of it is utter nonsense.

RodB





http://www.fairus.org/issues/publications/state-cost-studies
In 2013, illegal immigration cost Texas taxpayers about $12.1 billionannually. That amounts to more than $1,197 for every Texas household headed by a native-born or naturalized U.S. citizen.
The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on Texans (2014) (http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-texans)
http://www.fairus.org/images/publication_thumb/TexasCostStudy2013_thumb.jpg (http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-texans)In 2013, illegal immigration cost Texas taxpayers about $12.1 billion annually. That amounts to more than $1,197 for every Texas household headed by a native-born or naturalized U.S. citizen. The taxes paid by illegal aliens — estimated at $1.27 billion per year — do not come close to paying for those outlays, but we include an estimate of revenue from sales taxes, property taxes, alcohol taxes, and cigarette taxes.





http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/12431-illegal-aliens-a-drain-on-us-taxpayers-report-says

Illegal Aliens a Drain on U.S. Taxpayers, Report Says

Canoeyawl
07-30-2014, 11:39 AM
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...rs-report-says


Illegal Aliens a Drain on U.S. Taxpayers, Report Says




That report makes it obvious that we need to raise the tax rates on the wealthy, at least in Texas.

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 11:48 AM
First...its long been established that the Democrats pander to Hispanics to get their votes and to increase their voting bloc.Excuse me? Let's put this another way: The Democrats try to do thing that Hispanic voters (citizens all) approve of, in order to get their votes. Isn't this how democracy is supposed to work? If a party does things the voters like, the voters will reelect them! What in the world is wrong with this? How is it 'pandering'?

Again, you need to justify this statement with evidence. I think it's particularly nasty nonsense:


Originally posted by RodB, #42:

The truth is that Obama is trying to change the demographics of the country as much as possible before he exits office.
The report you quoted did two erroneous things, as I already pointed out: it included the US-born children of illegal immigrants, US citizens who are too young to be productive. In this they are like every other child in the US, no matter who their parents are. When they get older, they'll get jobs and pay taxes, more than justifying the investment in their education, again, just like every other child in the US. It also made no attempt to estimate the increased economic activity resulting form the presence of illegal immigrants, (customers for business, obviously) and the increased tax revenue that results. They were trying to make the costs seem as high as possible, distorting their methodology to produce the desired result.

RodB
07-30-2014, 12:00 PM
Excuse me? Let's put this another way: The Democrats try to do thing that Hispanic voters (citizens all) approve of, in order to get their votes. Isn't this how democracy is supposed to work? If a party does things the voters like, the voters will reelect them! What in the world is wrong with this? How is it 'pandering'?

Again, you need to justify this statement with evidence. I think it's particularly nasty nonsense:

The report you quoted did two erroneous things, as I already pointed out: it included the US-born children of illegal immigrants, US citizens who are too young to be productive. In this they are like every other child in the US, no matter who their parents are. When they get older, they'll get jobs and pay taxes, more than justifying the investment in their education, again, just like every other child in the US. It also made no attempt to estimate the increased economic activity resulting form the presence of illegal immigrants, (customers for business, obviously) and the increased tax revenue that results. They were trying to make the costs seem as high as possible, distorting their methodology to produce the desired result.


You ignore logical facts....

I'll post it again...

R




First...its long been established that the democrats pander to hispanics to get their votes and to increase their voting bloc.... the Obama administration is a political animal above all else... and from the beginning of his first campaign everything has been about increasing a long term voting bloc and staying in power forever. PERIOD! A constant war on Republicans has also been right up there in priorities with lots of false propaganda. This has involved lots promises to lots of poor folks with ... "Vote for us and we will give you more stuff"... as the catch phrase. The Obama administration does nothing without a political goal.

Second... tell me how a massive illegal alien invasion is good for the country when almost 100% of them are uneducated, unskilled, and over 50% will be on the government doll... PLUS... the costs to our citizens... SEE BELOW LINKS.

For a reasonably intelligent guy who usually tends to do his homework on issues...you sure miss the boat on this illegal immigration issue. The most repulsive part of your schtick is where you project some sort of fear on Americans who simply want our laws enforced. I too have lived around hispanics all of my life....I married one in my twenties. You have no fricking idea what experiences or "mindsets" other people have but that doesn't stop you from spewing a ridiculous opinion from your ivory tower of pompous elitism.

Texas will be majority hispanic soon if not already ... so F_ing what? http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/jan/23/george-p-bush/george-p-bush-says-texas-will-be-majority-hispanic/

They are Americans... just like you and I... and they can achieve anything they want if they work hard and get an education... whether the education is a trades skill or academic. I posted a good article on this recently that showed the stats on hispanics working on higher education were significantly going up. Like immigrants in our past history.... they improve their lives and the country is better off for it. How about pulling back on the negative narrative you project about the right... most of it is utter nonsense.

RodB





http://www.fairus.org/issues/publications/state-cost-studies
In 2013, illegal immigration cost Texas taxpayers about $12.1 billionannually. That amounts to more than $1,197 for every Texas household headed by a native-born or naturalized U.S. citizen.
The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on Texans (2014) (http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-texans)
http://www.fairus.org/images/publication_thumb/TexasCostStudy2013_thumb.jpg (http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-texans)In 2013, illegal immigration cost Texas taxpayers about $12.1 billion annually. That amounts to more than $1,197 for every Texas household headed by a native-born or naturalized U.S. citizen. The taxes paid by illegal aliens — estimated at $1.27 billion per year — do not come close to paying for those outlays, but we include an estimate of revenue from sales taxes, property taxes, alcohol taxes, and cigarette taxes.




http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/12431-illegal-aliens-a-drain-on-us-taxpayers-report-says

Illegal Aliens a Drain on U.S. Taxpayers, Report Says

TomF
07-30-2014, 12:06 PM
Rod, of course the Dems want to be re-elected, and work to increase their present and long term electoral prospects.

When doing that, is it more legitimate to implement policies which voters like, or to gerrymander districts so that there are essentially permanent majorities? Before you answer, think about the proportion of "safe" seats for each party in the House.

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 12:09 PM
Sorry, Rod, it isn't any more convincing or coherent the second time.

One more time: any evidence for this bit of paranoia?


Originally posted by RodB, #42

The truth is that Obama is trying to change the demographics of the country as much as possible before he exits office.


Originally posted by RodB, #83:

. . . tell me how a massive illegal alien invasion is good for the country when almost 100% of them are uneducated, unskilled, and over 50% will be on the government doll..First, what's this 'massive illegal invasion'? The number of illegal immigrants in the US has actually decreased somewhat from a high in 2007 (source (http://www.pewhispanic.org/2013/09/23/population-decline-of-unauthorized-immigrants-stalls-may-have-reversed/)). I suppose it's superfluous to point out that the numbers increased over 50% during the Bush administration, and have stayed relatively constant or even decreased a biut during the Obama administration, you you think Obama is the one who's trying to 'change the demographics of the country as much as possible'; that would be 'blaming Bush' right? http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/09/PH-unauthorized-immigrants-1-01.png

Second, where in the world do you get the bizarre idea that 'over 50% will be on the government dole" (which is what you meant, I presume, rather than 'doll'). You have to be here legally to get almost all forms of government assistance. I think you're just making stuff up. Evidence, please?

Bubba L.
07-30-2014, 12:29 PM
I bet that Obama is busing the kids into the U.S. It's the only thing that makes sense. There's no way these kids can get here any other way.

Gene

TomF
07-30-2014, 12:42 PM
I bet that Obama is busing the kids into the U.S. It's the only thing that makes sense. There's no way these kids can get here any other way.

GeneIf Obama was a leader instead of some useless POS President, he'd force Mexico to implement a carbon tax on diesel fuel, and stop those buses in their tracks. Cause what any real sovereign state does is interfere with other states' sovereignty, to secure their own borders.

John Smith
07-30-2014, 12:51 PM
Tap the brakes on your BS...

If you watched any reports on the border you would know its anything but secure. Denial is not an argument. The President has not been deporting record numbers ... you are acting like a part of the left wing propaganda machine. The Obama administration is counting all those illegals who are caught and immediately returned to mexico. Past administrations never counted these...So....here again we have a case of the Obama administration "cooking the book" to dishonestly reflect the facts. No one can believe anything put out by this administration.

RodB

Note the date on this http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/obamas-record-high-deportations-draw-hispanic-scorn/

Then there's this http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2013/jul/01/debbie-wasserman-schultz/more-border-security-and-patrols-under-obama-previ/

The house is about to give Obama a few million of the 3 billion dollars he asked for to handle the kid krisis, and their bill demands most be spent on more security at the border. How, exactly, is more security at the border going to solve the kids being here problem?

You'll give them more border patrol people to turn themselves into, so they'll come in faster.

John Smith
07-30-2014, 12:53 PM
First...its long been established that the democrats pander to hispanics to get their votes and to increase their voting bloc.... the Obama administration is a political animal above all else... and from the beginning of his first campaign everything has been about increasing a long term voting bloc and staying in power forever. PERIOD! A constant war on Republicans has also been right up there in priorities with lots of false propaganda. This has involved lots promises to lots of poor folks with ... "Vote for us and we will give you more stuff"... as the catch phrase. The Obama administration does nothing without a political goal.

Second... tell me how a massive illegal alien invasion is good for the country when almost 100% of them are uneducated, unskilled, and over 50% will be on the government doll... PLUS... the costs to our citizens... SEE BELOW LINKS.

For a reasonably intelligent guy who usually tends to do his homework on issues...you sure miss the boat on this illegal immigration issue. The most repulsive part of your schtick is where you project some sort of fear on Americans who simply want our laws enforced. I too have lived around hispanics all of my life....I married one in my twenties. You have no fricking idea what experiences or "mindsets" other people have but that doesn't stop you from spewing a ridiculous opinion from your ivory tower of pompous elitism.

Texas will be majority hispanic soon if not already ... so F_ing what? http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/jan/23/george-p-bush/george-p-bush-says-texas-will-be-majority-hispanic/

They are Americans... just like you and I... and they can achieve anything they want if they work hard and get an education... whether the education is a trades skill or academic. I posted a good article on this recently that showed the stats on hispanics working on higher education were significantly going up. Like immigrants in our past history.... they improve their lives and the country is better off for it. How about pulling back on the negative narrative you project about the right... most of it is utter nonsense.

RodB










[/TABLE]

True conservatives, like Reagan, would never pander to the Hispanic vote by granting amnesty to those here illegally. Oh wait. He did do that.

RodB
07-30-2014, 12:55 PM
Sorry, Rod, it isn't any more convincing or coherent the second time.

One more time: any evidence for this bit of paranoia?


Originally posted by RodB, #42:

The truth is that Obama is trying to change the demographics of the country as much as possible before he exits office.




I don't have to see some story written on an issue to know what I see Obama doing with my own eyes and ears... he is meandering along shipping a bunch of kids all over the nation to minimize the negative effects on Americans and to hide the actual amount of them dumped in the country. Its all kinda shady. Since he has always behaved as if he could care less about illegal aliens coming into the country (sued Arizona for simply wanting to enforce Federal law, directed the INS to not respond to calls from law enforcement about stopping/arresting illegals, etc) ... Obama has gone out of his way to ignore illegal immigration and the most recent over running of our borders by minors has only served to clearly illustrate Obama has no interest in whats best for the country but must have some agenda to so ignore our laws. What could the advantage be for another 11 million illegal aliens coming into the country ... I guess the actions of the Obama administration are well strategized and that a significant increase in the hispanic population in the country would be seen as an increase in democratic voters in the long run...

Obama is trying to change the demographics as fast as possible... I have seen this reported on a few sources... they seem to agree with me. This is like when I said the Obama administration's actions with Benghazi were all about minimizing any possible negative political fallout with an upcoming election... with no regard to decency and truth for the families of those who lost their lives. This was all predicated on the failed Obama foreign policy in the mid east and how wrong they were about terrorism being under control... and Al Qaeda being reduced in power.

RodB

TomF
07-30-2014, 01:05 PM
Trying to change the demographics? As fast as possible? Planning for "another 11 million illegal aliens," which doubles the total number already in the US?

What, he's launching recruiting drives in Latin America? Funding the buses? Witholding access to contraception and other family planning from minorities, but putting estrogens in the water in white suburbs?

Maybe he's not actually deporting record numbers of illegals?

Or maybe, the birth rates are different for any number of reasons. And immigration - legal and otherwise - is far less "white" than it used to be.

You've got to have actual, you know, facts to support allegations that somebody's bending over backwards to make something happen. You've just got indignation and suspicion, Rod.

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 01:09 PM
. . . to minimize the negative effects on Americans Is this not what the government is supposed to do? Follow the law and minimize negative effects?

Honestly, Rod, you're just making stuff up. No evidence, no data, just 'OBAMA BAD!' over and over again. Immigration policy is a difficult issue, and there are many aspects and different ways to look at it, many contradictory goals that we might try to achieve - but the nativists aren't thinking, just ranting. The US is not like it was when we were young, and won't ever be again in our lifetimes. The percentage of immigrants is now like it was 100 years ago, and they're from all over the world, not just Europe. I think this is a good thing; you may not, but it's a fact nonetheless. Get used to it.

Glen Longino
07-30-2014, 01:10 PM
Rod, your synapses are firing willy-nilly and missing their target receptors entirely!
There is more order and coherence in a sack full of ferrets than you are displaying here lately!
Get professional help before it's too late!

RodB
07-30-2014, 01:14 PM
Rod, of course the Dems want to be re-elected, and work to increase their present and long term electoral prospects.

When doing that, is it more legitimate to implement policies which voters like, or to gerrymander districts so that there are essentially permanent majorities? Before you answer, think about the proportion of "safe" seats for each party in the House.

Both parties pander to special interest groups... that is politics. Is it more legitimate to buy votes by promising entitlements that people will get used to and then taking the entitlements away later will be almost impossible. Creating an entitlement society is plain wrong and a bad thing for america. This is certainly not a new strategy... creating long term voting blocs ... based upon creating an entitlement group in the initial stages.

The Republican party needs to cast a wide net and concentrate on the policies that are best for all americans economically... and do a better job in fighting the massive stream of false narratives about the Republicans pushed by the left.

On immigration... can you tell me one good reason for the Obama administration to go out of its way to not protect our sovereignty ?

I'll trust my senses and gut feelings... they have been right about this administration so far... in Benghazi, in the IRS scandal... in immigration... all gleaned from just watching the actions of this left wing administration.

I have a feeling Keith will be crying foul when Lois Lerner goes to jail.... just an incredible level of bias overwhelming reality.

How bright do you have to be when you watch varying folks from the IRS answer questions trying not to answer.... to know things are really smelling bad? Keep your nose plugs on...

I'll be saying I told you so.

Nothing I have seen this administration do towards immigration has been for the good of this nation.


RodB

wardd
07-30-2014, 01:17 PM
First...its long been established that the democrats pander to hispanics to get their votes and to increase their voting bloc.... the Obama administration is a political animal above all else... and from the beginning of his first campaign everything has been about increasing a long term voting bloc and staying in power forever. PERIOD! A constant war on Republicans has also been right up there in priorities with lots of false propaganda. This has involved lots promises to lots of poor folks with ... "Vote for us and we will give you more stuff"... as the catch phrase. The Obama administration does nothing without a political goal.

Second... tell me how a massive illegal alien invasion is good for the country when almost 100% of them are uneducated, unskilled, and over 50% will be on the government doll... PLUS... the costs to our citizens... SEE BELOW LINKS.

For a reasonably intelligent guy who usually tends to do his homework on issues...you sure miss the boat on this illegal immigration issue. The most repulsive part of your schtick is where you project some sort of fear on Americans who simply want our laws enforced. I too have lived around hispanics all of my life....I married one in my twenties. You have no fricking idea what experiences or "mindsets" other people have but that doesn't stop you from spewing a ridiculous opinion from your ivory tower of pompous elitism.

Texas will be majority hispanic soon if not already ... so F_ing what? http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/jan/23/george-p-bush/george-p-bush-says-texas-will-be-majority-hispanic/

They are Americans... just like you and I... and they can achieve anything they want if they work hard and get an education... whether the education is a trades skill or academic. I posted a good article on this recently that showed the stats on hispanics working on higher education were significantly going up. Like immigrants in our past history.... they improve their lives and the country is better off for it. How about pulling back on the negative narrative you project about the right... most of it is utter nonsense.

RodB










[/TABLE]



political parties pandering for votes??????????

say it ain't so

Bubba L.
07-30-2014, 01:27 PM
I seem to remember that the bilge was ablaze with indignation when some rednecks dragged a black behind their truck for miles leaving a trail of body parts.
Criminal drivers cross all races.

James Byrd Jr. and he was returning from a party for his niece.

Gene

RodB
07-30-2014, 01:29 PM
political parties pandering for votes??????????

say it ain't so

change it to the Democrats trying to buy votes promising entitlements.
R

Canoeyawl
07-30-2014, 01:29 PM
I don't have to see some story written on an issue to know what I see Obama doing with my own eyes and ears

Rod, all you do is post "stories" written on an issue. Very rarely do you post a "fact" or valid data.

All are just some stories written by "marketeers" that know exactly how to push your buttons, with stories that fit neatly into your agenda.
Interesting and rather remarkable that it is so neatly done.

TomF
07-30-2014, 01:33 PM
Both parties pander to special interest groups... that is politics. Is it more legitimate to buy votes by promising entitlements that people will get used to and then taking the entitlements away later will be almost impossible. Creating an entitlement society is plain wrong and a bad thing for america. This is certainly not a new strategy... creating long term voting blocs ... based upon creating an entitlement group in the initial stages.
All Western governments except in America have some form of universal health insurance - and it's been important not just to ensure citizens' access, but to assist labour mobility. We've all been able to pay for it too, with no greater or lesser trouble than America's had with its own budgets ... :D

I am not aware that immigrants become permanent entitlement groups - Canada's experience has been the opposite, in fact. And you yourself have observed here on the forum that illegal immigrants have a work ethic that leaves many "natural born" citizens in the dust. Taking jobs that citizens won't take.

The ones with a sense of entitlement, in other words, tend to be the folks who take our society's benefits for granted ... not the ones who take incredible risks to find a better opportunity for themselves and their families.

IMO, Republicans are the natural party of Entrepreneurialism, in America. In alienating immigrant populations (legal or not) the GOP is missing a huge opportunity for rebound in future decades. Immigrants are the single largest, fastest-growing, and youngest group of entrepreneurially and socially conservative minded people in America. They're the GOP's natural allies, if you can get past the cultural thing.

Bubba L.
07-30-2014, 01:35 PM
Rod, your synapses are firing willy-nilly and missing their target receptors entirely!
There is more order and coherence in a sack full of ferrets than you are displaying here lately!
Get professional help before it's too late!


"...sack full of ferrets..." roflmao!

Thanks for the image Glen, I needed a laugh. :d

Gene

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 01:39 PM
Government taking tax money and doing something that actually helps people? HORRORS! We can't have that! It's buying votes! http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif


http://www.allaboutferretscentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/ferret-sleep-sack-405x410.jpg

RodB
07-30-2014, 01:39 PM
Is this not what the government is supposed to do? Follow the law and minimize negative effects?

Honestly, Rod, you're just making stuff up. No evidence, no data, just 'OBAMA BAD!' over and over again. Immigration policy is a difficult issue, and there are many aspects and different ways to look at it, many contradictory goals that we might try to achieve - but the nativists aren't thinking, just ranting. The US is not like it was when we were young, and won't ever be again in our lifetimes. The percentage of immigrants is now like it was 100 years ago, and they're from all over the world, not just Europe. I think this is a good thing; you may not, but it's a fact nonetheless. Get used to it.

I am only concerned about the illegal immigration....not legal immigration. Tons of folks coming into the nation.. most being uneducated, unskilled, and over 50% going on the government dole.... this is in no way good for our nation. Get used to facts being facts. Most americans likely have no problem with immigrants... just the massive amount of illegal immigrants and the cost and damage to the country's economy. Get used to it.

R

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 01:42 PM
. . . and over 50% going on the government dole.Again, how do you know this? You have to be here legally to get government assistance. I think you're just making stuff up. Evidence, Rod, evidence?

RodB
07-30-2014, 01:42 PM
Government taking tax money and doing something that actually helps people? HORRORS! We can't have that! It's buying votes! http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif


http://www.allaboutferretscentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/ferret-sleep-sack-405x410.jpg

You likely have a tattoo saying "Yay for the foodstamp president"...

You seem to have some falsely created sense of righteousness in promoting most of your ideas...in that they will do some good for someone... with other peoples money. This is liberal logic I guess.

RodB

Vince Brennan
07-30-2014, 01:51 PM
Rod, you're losing. Your arguments (and I use the word loosely) are circular, unsubstantiated and unsuccessful. In a High School freshman debate class, the moderator would probably ask you to leave the podium as being incapable of continued rational thought.

You may be wowing the conservatives on the board, but - I can assure you - you are CERTAINLY cementing your reputation among the rest of us.

On Ignore for you, Old Son... no longer worth listening to nor relevant to any intelligent discussions.

RodB
07-30-2014, 01:56 PM
All Western governments except in America have some form of universal health insurance - and it's been important not just to ensure citizens' access, but to assist labour mobility. We've all been able to pay for it too, with no greater or lesser trouble than America's had with its own budgets ... :D

I am not aware that immigrants become permanent entitlement groups - Canada's experience has been the opposite, in fact. And you yourself have observed here on the forum that illegal immigrants have a work ethic that leaves many "natural born" citizens in the dust. Taking jobs that citizens won't take.

The ones with a sense of entitlement, in other words, tend to be the folks who take our society's benefits for granted ... not the ones who take incredible risks to find a better opportunity for themselves and their families.

IMO, Republicans are the natural party of Entrepreneurialism, in America. In alienating immigrant populations (legal or not) the GOP is missing a huge opportunity for rebound in future decades. Immigrants are the single largest, fastest-growing, and youngest group of entrepreneurially and socially conservative minded people in America. They're the GOP's natural allies, if you can get past the cultural thing.

You are not telling someone who lives in a border state anything new. I can't disagree with anything you have said. I hope we get a candidate with good sense in dealing with immigration but I am not for open borders or amnesty... and most americans are not. The massive bombardment from the left of a false narrative accusing the right of so much that is not true with the help of the mainstream media and the entertainment industry... has created a lot of false impressions. This being cast as an evil bigot or racist or selfish basted is getting old and lots of low information voters have accepted much of this crap simply because they pay so little attention to politics.

Republicans need to do a much better job in combating the chronic attacks by the left with the politics of destruction.



R

Bubba L.
07-30-2014, 01:58 PM
I am only concerned about the illegal immigration....not legal immigration. Tons of folks coming into the nation.. most being uneducated, unskilled, and over 50% going on the government dole.... this is in no way good for our nation. Get used to facts being facts. Most americans likely have no problem with immigrants... just the massive amount of illegal immigrants and the cost and damage to the country's economy. Get used to it.

R

Without data this is just opinion. Opinion is fine, this is the place for it, just don't claim it is fact. For instance, I've seen Keith begin many sentences with "IMO", which unless I'm on the wrong planet (don't laugh, it's happened) means "in my opinion". Most of us can debate opinion all day long while only becoming mildly passionate. On the other hand, continuously listening to someone state opinion as fact makes most of us want to slap someone.

"The definition of stress is when you resist the body's natural inclination to slap someone who deserves it." Author unknown.

Gene

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 02:06 PM
. . .lots of low information voters have accepted much of this crap simply because they pay so little attention to politics. Yeah, right. My problem is that I pay too little attention to politics, and have no idea what's really going on.

RodB
07-30-2014, 02:10 PM
Rod, you're losing. Your arguments (and I use the word loosely) are circular, unsubstantiated and unsuccessful. In a High School freshman debate class, the moderator would probably ask you to leave the podium as being incapable of continued rational thought.

You may be wowing the conservatives on the board, but - I can assure you - you are CERTAINLY cementing your reputation among the rest of us.

On Ignore for you, Old Son... no longer worth listening to nor relevant to any intelligent discussions.

Political bias trumps all facts with liberals. The costs of illegal immigration have been documented for all to see. Its massive. The documentaries "They Come to America" and "They Come to America II" likely will not ever be viewed by most on this forum...although they are award winning quality and contain truth.

Its not a question of unsubstianted... its a question of the left not being interested in anything that opposes their preconceived ideas. This is why several people have written books and made strong comments like... "Liberalism is a mental disease"...

From my perspective... the reality is most conservative comments have been on ignore for liberals since I can remember...so whats new?




R

TomF
07-30-2014, 02:11 PM
Yeah, right. My problem is that I pay too little attention to politics, and have no idea what's really going on.Distracted from political life by his meat raffle winnings, Wilson munches dejectedly.

hanleyclifford
07-30-2014, 02:11 PM
Yeah, right. My problem is that I pay too little attention to politics, and have no idea what's really going on. Most of us pay plenty of attention but still don't know what's really going on.:)

RodB
07-30-2014, 02:17 PM
Yeah, right. My problem is that I pay too little attention to politics, and have no idea what's really going on.


Your problem is that you don't even realize how much your political blinders actually do distort your view.

Is there no cost to american citizens from illegal immigration? If there is... is it significant or just a pittance?

Is President Obama not guilty of not enforcing our laws to the best of his abilities as he took an oath to do?

Is Obama's lax enforcement of our laws in any way responsible for the run on the border?



R

RodB
07-30-2014, 02:19 PM
Without data this is just opinion. Opinion is fine, this is the place for it, just don't claim it is fact. For instance, I've seen Keith begin many sentences with "IMO", which unless I'm on the wrong planet (don't laugh, it's happened) means "in my opinion". Most of us can debate opinion all day long while only becoming mildly passionate. On the other hand, continuously listening to some state opinion as fact makes most of us want to slap someone.

"The definition of stress is when you resist the body's natural inclination to slap someone who deserves it." Author unknown.

Gene


I can post multiple sources for costs of illegal immigration... it makes little difference. I have posted some good sources. Its seems that conservatives have a difficult time trusting sources posted by liberals and vice versa...

Imagine that.



http://www.infowars.com/18-facts-prove-illegal-immigration-is-absolute-nightmare-for-u-s-economy/

R

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 02:30 PM
You provided ZERO evidence for the your claim that "over 50% of illegal immigrants go on the government dole" I think this is a lie.


Is there no cost to American citizens from illegal immigration? If there is... is it significant or just a pittance?Yes, there's a cost. In some cases it's significant. Yes, we need to look at reforming immigration laws to increase the benefits from immigration and reduce the costs. Nativist ranting and intractable opposition to 'amnesty' makes this nearly impossible.


Is President Obama not guilty of not enforcing our laws to the best of his abilities as he took an oath to do?No, he is obviously not 'guilty'. Considering that the number of illegal immigrants in the US has not increased on his watch, when it increased 50% under the last administration, I'd say that the evidence shows he has been doing a decent job.


Is Obama's lax enforcement of our laws in any way responsible for the run on the border?Since this putative 'lax enforcement ' is clearly a myth, given the evidence, the question has no basis.

TomF
07-30-2014, 02:34 PM
Your problem is that you don't even realize how much your political blinders actually do distort your view.

Is there no cost to american citizens from illegal immigration? If there is... is it significant or just a pittance?

Is President Obama not guilty of not enforcing our laws to the best of his abilities as he took an oath to do?

Is Obama's lax enforcement of our laws in any way responsible for the run on the border?
R

The net costs or gains are debatable. What would be the net cost, for instance, of immediate elimination of all illegal immigrant labour (including the guys on the crew that poured your shop pad a while back), and the spinoff effects of their consumption? How does that stack up against the various negatives? Show us an unbiased study that nets these things out.
He's probably following that oath to the best of his abilities ... like every other President does to the best of their abilities. Calling him a slacker cuts no ice - especially when the stats actually show record numbers of deportations.
First, the "run on the border" is lower than you claim. Second, record deportations are unlikely to be themselves prompting more illegal immigration. Third, the problem you have re the children is from rigorous enforcement of the law, not lax enforcement.

RonW
07-30-2014, 02:57 PM
Well I googled -illegal immigrants cost to government -- and got all kinds of sites, and it seems to be about a cost of $113 billion dollars a year..

http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-u-s-taxpayers

and then here is this ---In 2009 (based on data collected in 2010), 57 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal and illegal) with children (under 18) used at least one welfare program, compared to 39 percent for native households with children.

Households with children with the highest welfare use rates are those headed by immigrants from the Dominican Republic (82 percent), Mexico and Guatemala (75 percent), and Ecuador (70 percent). Those with the lowest use rates are from the United Kingdom (7 percent), India (19 percent), Canada (23 percent), and Korea (25 percent).

The states where immigrant households with children have the highest welfare use rates are Arizona (62 percent); Texas, California, and New York (61 percent); Pennsylvania (59 percent); Minnesota and Oregon (56 percent); and Colorado (55 percent).

http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

The facts are out there, and not very hard to find if you want to............

switters
07-30-2014, 03:00 PM
Fox news has an interesting take on the GOP handling of the border issue.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/29/shame-gop-on-border/

The pope and an influential group of evangelicals are calling on Red team to knock it off and think about the children. The article makes sense, but the fact that it is a reprint from the hill on Fox is mind boggling.

TomF
07-30-2014, 03:05 PM
OK. Now contrast with the economic value which immigrants (legal and illegal, since that's your other data) contribute to the economy. The spinoff impact of their spending, the "discount" to employers if they're working for less than an employer would need to pay a "natural born" American citizen, etc.

That is - the cost differential which makes employers want to hire illegals, and the negative impact (with spinoffs through the economy) were none of it to occur.

Osborne Russell
07-30-2014, 03:08 PM
Reagan, Bush 1 & the Chimp . . . nothing.

It's only a crisis when the President is Democrat . . . ever since the Mexican Revolution.

Republican President, silence. Democratic President, crisis. And then they are careful to avoid any realistic proposal.

RodB
07-30-2014, 03:16 PM
The net costs or gains are debatable. What would be the net cost, for instance, of immediate elimination of all illegal immigrant labour (including the guys on the crew that poured your shop pad a while back), and the spinoff effects of their consumption? How does that stack up against the various negatives? Show us an unbiased study that nets these things out.
He's probably following that oath to the best of his abilities ... like every other President does to the best of their abilities. Calling him a slacker cuts no ice - especially when the stats actually show record numbers of deportations.
First, the "run on the border" is lower than you claim. Second, record deportations are unlikely to be themselves prompting more illegal immigration. Third, the problem you have re the children is from rigorous enforcement of the law, not lax enforcement.



I must admit that most sources that I see on the costs of illegal immigration are likely biased... but when you see emergency rooms and city funded clinics completely crowded ... who do you think is paying for all this medical care?
I have a brother and a nephew in the home improvement business and believe me... the increasing illegal immigrant numbers here over the past 15 years have seriously affected the job prices for such work...by significantly lowering them.

The Obama Administration is untruthful about deportation
https://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/february-12-2013/how-obama-administration-inflates-deportation-statistics.html
The Obama administration is untruthful about deportation numbers... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/24/lamar-smith-obama-deportation_n_1828860.html
I think they manipulate the numbers on most issues to make them look better.

Lastly, your comments on the rigorous enforcement of the law are incorrect. These children have mainly required time to be processed after they turned themselves in. The sheer number of them has taken the majority of the border patrol agents away from their jobs of securing the border to process the minors.

R


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/Prestoboat/Illegalcosttexas.jpg

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 03:51 PM
One more time. That study did two things to make the costs seem as high as possible, as I already pointed out: they included the US-born children of illegal immigrants, US citizens who are too young to be productive. In this they are like every other child in the US, no matter who their parents are. When they get older, they'll get jobs and pay taxes, more than justifying the investment in their education, again, just like every other child in the US. It also made no attempt to estimate the increased economic activity resulting from the presence of illegal immigrants, (customers for business, obviously) and the increased tax revenue that results.

Reynard38
07-30-2014, 04:23 PM
Again, how do you know this? You have to be here legally to get government assistance. I think you're just making stuff up. Evidence, Rod, evidence?

What about the emergency rooms that are used by illegals for medical care and childbirth. They don't pay for the services received, and there isn't any way to collect.
I'm not making this scenario up. A good friends wife was a nurse in a local maternity ward and saw this happen everyday.
Who ends up paying the cost of this?

RodB
07-30-2014, 04:25 PM
What about the emergency rooms that are used by illegals for medical care and childbirth. They don't pay for the services received, and there isn't any way to collect.
I'm not making this scenario up. A good friends wife was a nurse in a local maternity ward and saw this happen everyday.
Who ends up paying the cost of this?

I have already posted about the medical care... the costs are incredible.

R

RodB
07-30-2014, 04:35 PM
Fox news has an interesting take on the GOP handling of the border issue.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/29/shame-gop-on-border/

The pope and an influential group of evangelicals are calling on Red team to knock it off and think about the children. The article makes sense, but the fact that it is a reprint from the hill on Fox is mind boggling.


Juan Williams is a liberal and I disagree with him about 90% of the time. He is a fox contributor... you know ... fair and balanced.

The immigration reform will pass if it seriously secures the border and changes the law to let people outside of our borders know they will not get to stay here if they just come across the border. The US cannot afford to take care of all poor people around the world. Our sovereignty needs to be protected or we are not a country. BTW... Hillary as said the same thing recently.

R

wardd
07-30-2014, 04:39 PM
change it to the Democrats trying to buy votes promising entitlements.
R

so if you had been a german jew you'd have voted for hitler?

RodB
07-30-2014, 07:30 PM
so if you had been a german jew you'd have voted for hitler?


Are you on drugs?

The point is their policies in general are so bad that they mainly campaign by demonizing the political opposition or bribe the voters.

R

Keith Wilson
07-30-2014, 07:43 PM
Rod, may I suggest you go out and invest in a mirror? It's a surprisingly useful device, and can reveal a lot of things you might not otherwise know.

jack grebe
07-30-2014, 07:44 PM
Bottom line is that all nations have a right to secured borders and to who if anyone can come in



Soooo, I assume this also includes past nations?.........say Cherokee nation for example?

Immigration, regardless of legal or illegal, is going to happen.
Last September, I was a "victim" of hit and run,....I live if south
Florida, I was taken out by a car while driving a scooter @ 45+mph.
Should I automatically blame an Illegal? Damned if I know who it was,
they fled the scene.

Immigration is a fact of life in the south, and English may be the
language of the U.S., but I am learning spanish. Dig your heel in if
you like, you're only going to hurt yourself against rising tide.

For myself, I am going to prepare for what is to come....entender?

Canoeyawl
07-30-2014, 07:53 PM
Rod, may I suggest you go out and invest in a mirror? It's a surprisingly useful device, and can reveal a lot of things you might not otherwise know.

A mirror won't work

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T3W3PB99L.jpg

jack grebe
07-30-2014, 08:12 PM
and all these years I've been singin the lyrics wrong.......

RodB
07-30-2014, 08:41 PM
Race matters not... people are people... .but you guys are determined to pigeon hole anyone who insists on rational laws in dealing with illegal immigrants. Thats the left's standard operational strategy ... demonize the opposition above all costs.

RodB

jack grebe
07-30-2014, 08:52 PM
Race matters not... people are people... .but you guys are determined to pigeon hole anyone who insists on rational laws in dealing with illegal immigrants. Thats the left's standard operational strategy ... demonize the opposition above all costs.

RodB
I really wish you folks would make up your minds.......am I left or am I right?

I always thought myself human

RonW
07-31-2014, 07:43 AM
I really wish you folks would make up your minds.......am I left or am I right?

I always thought myself human

Well you seem to be swaying back and forth a little...but from your post # 131..


Immigration is a fact of life in the south, and English may be the
language of the U.S., but I am learning spanish. Dig your heel in if
you like, you're only going to hurt yourself against rising tide.

For myself, I am going to prepare for what is to come....entender?

I would say you threw in the towel and raised the white flag..

Peerie Maa
07-31-2014, 08:15 AM
I would say you ... raised the white flag..Is there a war on? That should please the Reps and their arms manufacturing pay masters.

RonW
07-31-2014, 08:46 AM
Is there a war on? That should please the Reps and their arms manufacturing pay masters.

Well first off you need to read a little more on american history and see what roles the dems play in the war machine............

And yes there is a war on in america. and I ain't taking the time to explain it to you...but it might have something to do with left versus right........

epoxyboy
07-31-2014, 08:50 AM
From the article (which dates back to 2008, by the way)

Indeed, one local manager of a Tex-Mex restaurant, during an interview with the Statesman (“Born here, Born there”), complained of kitchen workers, presumably Mexicans here illegally, who poked fun of customers who were Americans of Mexican heritage -- all for the sin of “acting American.” Behind their backs, they'd insult them with ethnic slurs, complained the restaurant manager, a Texan of Mexican heritage.

Without wishing to state the obvious, isnt the fact that thousands of businesses, presumably owned by the very same Republican supporters (well it is Texas, right!) who are bemoaning the immigration "problem", are the very same people who KNOWINGLY employ the illegals.
You want to have your cake, and eat it too. Perhaps Rod, you should be focussing on the real problem - the employers who make it viable for the immigrants to survive. Or the fact that some segments of the local economy are now wholly dependant on the cheap labour, and would likely tank without it. Agriculture, for starters.

Pete

RodB
07-31-2014, 07:32 PM
From the article (which dates back to 2008, by the way)

Indeed, one local manager of a Tex-Mex restaurant, during an interview with the Statesman (“Born here, Born there”), complained of kitchen workers, presumably Mexicans here illegally, who poked fun of customers who were Americans of Mexican heritage -- all for the sin of “acting American.” Behind their backs, they'd insult them with ethnic slurs, complained the restaurant manager, a Texan of Mexican heritage.

Without wishing to state the obvious, isnt the fact that thousands of businesses, presumably owned by the very same Republican supporters (well it is Texas, right!) who are bemoaning the immigration "problem", are the very same people who KNOWINGLY employ the illegals.
You want to have your cake, and eat it too. Perhaps Rod, you should be focussing on the real problem - the employers who make it viable for the immigrants to survive. Or the fact that some segments of the local economy are now wholly dependant on the cheap labour, and would likely tank without it. Agriculture, for starters.

Pete


You aren't telling me anything I don't already know. First the border needs to be secured... Second... once they get here... businesses have developed to get them a usable social security numbers to get employed... in compliance with our laws. The open borders crowd and supposed pro immigration activists plus sanctuary cities all exacerbate this problem.

RodB

Reynard38
08-01-2014, 07:45 AM
Fortunately this was a single vehicle accident. Unfortunatley a child was killed.

http://patch.com/georgia/dacula/driver-i-85-accident-killed-7-year-old-charged-vehicular-homicide#.U9uLB9q9KSM

John Smith
08-01-2014, 09:26 AM
You aren't telling me anything I don't already know. First the border needs to be secured... Second... once they get here... businesses have developed to get them a usable social security numbers to get employed... in compliance with our laws. The open borders crowd and supposed pro immigration activists plus sanctuary cities all exacerbate this problem.

RodB

I keep hearing this. I get frequent emails complaining about it. What I don't get are links to reliable (not right wing nut) sources.

Meanwhile, which is it you want. You want our president to handle these kids as the law prescribes, or do you want him to not follow our law?

RodB
08-01-2014, 10:13 AM
I keep hearing this. I get frequent emails complaining about it. What I don't get are links to reliable (not right wing nut) sources.

Meanwhile, which is it you want. You want our president to handle these kids as the law prescribes, or do you want him to not follow our law?

Why can't Obama do exactly what Hillary suggested... First and foremost make it clear that anyone coming into this country breaking our laws will not be able to stay. Also As Hillary suggested... immediately change the 2008 law and clearly spell out anyone coming across the Mexican border illegally will be treated exactly like those from Mexico and Canada. Third... try to undo all the damage he has done in the past with his lax enforcement of immigration laws and start a new initiative to clearly define and publicize that the United States will firmly enforce our immigration laws. Fourth... current laws should be modified to develop a rational immigration system that allows reasonable amount of immigration in the future with significant emphasis on trying to get some of the best and brightest rather than 100% of the uneducated and unskilled. Fifth... any illegal immigrant convicted of a felony is immediately deported rather than allowing them to continue to commit crimes until american citizens become victims of their crimes. Sixth... stop with all the fake "refugee" talk when most of this is absolutely a lie... and finally (really first and foremost) stop trying to dramatically increase the amount of hispanics in the nation simply to garner hispanic vote in general and to increase voting bloc size in the longer view. This would likely be handled simply by the President always doing what is best for this nation...not following some destructive ideology that has seemed to completely dominate his policies.

Note: I know this is more complicated than my comments convey....however at least a commonsense approach that protects our sovereignty and our citizens/taxpayers needs to be the focus. Just this morning I saw a past CDC official remark (paraphrase) that why would it seem to make any sense at all to take in so many immigrants so quickly without proper screening simply from the public health perspective...if we are using any commonsense in protecting our citizens.


RodB

John Smith
08-01-2014, 10:54 AM
Why can't Obama do exactly what Hillary suggested... First and foremost make it clear that anyone coming into this country breaking our laws will not be able to stay. Also As Hillary suggested... immediately change the 2008 law and clearly spell out anyone coming across the Mexican border illegally will be treated exactly like those from Mexico and Canada. Third... try to undo all the damage he has done in the past with his lax enforcement of immigration laws and start a new initiative to clearly define and publicize that the United States will firmly enforce our immigration laws. Fourth... current laws should be modified to develop a rational immigration system that allows reasonable amount of immigration in the future with significant emphasis on trying to get some of the best and brightest rather than 100% of the uneducated and unskilled. Fifth... any illegal immigrant convicted of a felony is immediately deported rather than allowing them to continue to commit crimes until american citizens become victims of their crimes. Sixth... stop with all the fake "refugee" talk when most of this is absolutely a lie... and finally (really first and foremost) stop trying to dramatically increase the amount of hispanics in the nation simply to garner hispanic vote in general and to increase voting bloc size in the longer view. This would likely be handled simply by the President always doing what is best for this nation...not following some destructive ideology that has seemed to completely dominate his policies.

Note: I know this is more complicated than my comments convey....however at least a commonsense approach that protects our sovereignty and our citizens/taxpayers needs to be the focus. Just this morning I saw a past CDC official remark (paraphrase) that why would it seem to make any sense at all to take in so many immigrants so quickly without proper screening simply from the public health perspective...if we are using any commonsense in protecting our citizens.


RodB
Why can't you get it through your head these children are not breaking any of our laws? Refusing to let them come in, or sending them back without due process would be breaking our laws. Everyone in congress in '08 supported that law, and Bush signed it.

Do you want our president to follow the law or break the law because you don't like the law? Those who voted for this law should fund it, no?

No one supports adults coming here illegally. A more secure border, which you long for, will cost money. Is this house prepared to pay for it? They've had years to pass comprehensive immigration reform. They haven't done it, and that is on congress, no? This congress has done less than any congress in our history.

It's been documented that our borders are more secure than they've been, and Obama has been deporting more than previous presidents.

If you want the laws changed, you need to talk to congress.

Canoeyawl
08-01-2014, 11:11 AM
stop with all the fake "refugee" talk when most of this is absolutely a lie

You need to look that one up Rod.
We are all looking for refuge. Some search for it by building a boat, a barn, or drinking, or drugs, and some find it by escaping violence and poverty at great risk. This is not shallow and These are the honorable ones. Can you even imagine sending your children off on their own to search for a new home? How bad must it be to do that?

RodB
08-01-2014, 11:20 AM
posted byJohn Smith: Why can't you get it through your head these children are not breaking any of our laws? Refusing to let them come in, or sending them back without due process would be breaking our laws. Everyone in congress in '08 supported that law, and Bush signed it.

Do you even know the reason why that law was proposed? Sex trafficking does not pertain to the majority of these children and you know it. Once we deal with this current onslaught of children... we need to use commonsense and change that law... and you know that only makes sense. We need to change due process to what immigrants from Mexico and Canada live under.


No one supports adults coming here illegally. A more secure border, which you long for, will cost money. Is this house prepared to pay for it? They've had years to pass comprehensive immigration reform. They haven't done it, and that is on congress, no? This congress has done less than any congress in our history.


This house has passed a few hundred bills over the past three years...and you know it. How many "house passed bills" are being tabled by Harry Reid. You only raise hell about the laws they have blocked that the Obama administration initiated and were unacceptable to Republicans. This House has done a fairly decent job in keeping Obama from doing any more damage than he has.



It's been documented that our borders are more secure than they've been, and Obama has been deporting more than previous presidents.

Both are false and you know it. Stop with the left's talking points.

R

RodB
08-01-2014, 11:22 AM
You need to look that one up Rod.
We are all looking for refuge. Some search for it by building a boat, a barn, or drinking, or drugs, and some find it by escaping violence and poverty at great risk. This is not shallow and These are the honorable ones. Can you even imagine sending your children off on their own to search for a new home? How bad must it be to do that?


Just stop with the melodrama. We can't take care of all the world's poor and downtrodden. Get real.

We should and do try to effect positive change in many many poor countries... not just bring them all to our country and let it be destroyed. Personal survival is not being selfish.

R

Canoeyawl
08-01-2014, 11:27 AM
Who said anything about the worlds problems? We are talking about a few hundred destitute children...

What do you do when you pass a stranger in need Rod? Do you try to share some of your good fortune, or do you hold your nose, avert your eyes and walk on by?

You don't need to answer that...

RodB
08-01-2014, 12:13 PM
Who said anything about the worlds problems? We are talking about a few hundred destitute children...

What do you do when you pass a stranger in need Rod? Do you try to share some of your good fortune, or do you hold your nose, avert your eyes and walk on by?

You don't need to answer that...

Stop with the false melodrama...

The current crop of children is obviously being taken care of at tremendous cost to the taxpayers... we are talking about changing the law so that anyone coming across our border that is a minor will be treated exactly like Mexican and Canadian nationals.

R

David G
08-01-2014, 12:49 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/07/31/how-tea-party-could-get-the-shaft-in-border-fight/

Reynard38
08-01-2014, 01:10 PM
It's amazing that the countries these kids come from aren't saying anything. Here in the US most of us think of our kids as our future.
Are they just a liability in Central America to be sent away?
Is the US still sending taxpayer funded aid $$ to these countries, only to have them unload their children on us?
Maybe we should terminate this aid $$ and use it to educate these kids and find them good homes here in the US.

RodB
08-01-2014, 01:22 PM
The leaders from those countries came here as a group or at least two of the three of them did and their statements were blaming the US for buying all the drugs and that they needed help to deal with their internal problems.

R

Keith Wilson
08-01-2014, 01:46 PM
It's amazing that the countries these kids come from aren't saying anything.Perhaps they are. What happens in Central America rarely gets reported in the US press unless it involves a war.

David G
08-01-2014, 01:51 PM
Who to blame?

http://news.yahoo.com/ted-cruz-deserves-most-not-blame-killing-houses-155009420.html

John Smith
08-01-2014, 03:17 PM
Stop with the false melodrama...

The current crop of children is obviously being taken care of at tremendous cost to the taxpayers... we are talking about changing the law so that anyone coming across our border that is a minor will be treated exactly like Mexican and Canadian nationals.

R

Why can't congress change the law? In the meantime, why can't/won't they fund the law they voted for?

David G
08-02-2014, 02:52 PM
Even the consistently conservative Wall St. Journal editorial board is Less Than Impressed with the Republican House Majority on this topic --

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/wall-street-journal-editorial-reams-173651023.html


The GOP's Deportation Caucus—led by Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions and Ted Cruz of Texas—lobbied House conservatives to resist any immigration compromise and pick a fight with Mr. Boehner. The dissenters demanded an array of policy changes, most notably new restrictions on the President's executive order allowing some undocumented immigrants who were brought here as children to remain in the country.

Readers may recall that the last Republican in an election year to support deporting immigrant children brought here through no fault of their own was Mitt Romney. A splendid voter attraction that was.

David G
08-05-2014, 08:48 AM
https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1904234_10152184235275493_444190714898209800_n.png ?oh=8b917aa51440ea99d8464567924674b8&oe=543F8C87

RodB
08-05-2014, 09:05 AM
https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1904234_10152184235275493_444190714898209800_n.png ?oh=8b917aa51440ea99d8464567924674b8&oe=543F8C87



Another made up issue....
Lets visit reality....

RodB


Mitt Romney 2014?
Americans are so down on President Obama at the moment that, if they could do the 2012 election all over again, they'd overwhelmingly back the former Massachusetts governor's bid. That's just one finding in a brutal CNN poll, released Sunday, which shows Romney topping Obama in a re-election rematch by a whopping nine-point margin, 53 percent to 44 percent. That's an even larger spread than CNN found in November, when a survey had Romney winning a redo 49 percent to 45 percent.
Two years ago, Obama won re-election with about 51 percent of the vote.
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-and-friends/blog/2014/07/28/americans-really-wish-they-had-elected-mitt-romney-instead-obama?intcmp=obnetwork

Keith Wilson
08-05-2014, 09:17 AM
Awww. Guess who won the election? Go ahead; run Mr. 47% again. Hillary will eat him for breakfast, then have to get a muffin to avoid being hungry by 10AM.

And I applaud your party, Rod; they're doing a truly spectacular job of ensuring nobody named Morales, Garcia, Ramos, Perez, or Mendoza will vote for them this century.

RodB
08-05-2014, 09:19 AM
Awww. Guess who won the election? Go ahead; run Mr. 47% again. Hillary will eat him for breakfast, then have to get a muffin to avoid being hungry by 10AM.

And I applaud your party, Rod; they're doing a truly spectacular job of ensuring nobody named Morales, Garcia, Ramos, Perez, or Mendoza will vote for them this century.

Don't ya think the Democrats are working very hard to convey a very negative and mostly false image of the Republicans as they have for the past 7 years...with the help of the massive left wing propaganda machine?

R

Bubba L.
08-05-2014, 09:23 AM
Don't ya think the Democrats are working very hard to convey a very negative and mostly false image of the Republicans as they have for the past 7 years...with the help of the massive left wing propaganda machine?

R

Are you really that dense? They are doing it to themselves. No spin is needed to make them look like jerks.

Gene

Keith Wilson
08-05-2014, 09:41 AM
Don't ya think the Democrats are working very hard to convey a very negative and mostly false image of the Republicans Oh, there's not the slightest need to do that. They're doing it themselves, with great energy and dedication.

The central fact of US politics over the past 20 years is that the right wing, and the Republican party in general, has moved farther and farther right. This is not opinion, it is objective verifiable fact. You may think this is a good thing. From my point of view it looks like they've gone completely mad. YMMV. But it is objective fact that positions on immigration that were standard among more moderate Republicans 20 or 30 years ago are currently anathema.

It is also true that the party is alienating Hispanic voters in droves; this is not because of any false image presented by others, but because of what they're doing and saying voluntarily. Some of the cooler heads in the party recognized this after they lost the 2012 election; there was a large report by the RNC on how they needed to broaden their base (here's an article about it (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/19/us/politics/republicans-plan-overhaul-for-2016-primary-season.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0), and you can read it here (http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/624293-republican-national-committees-growth-and.html)). They've done exactly the opposite of what the report recommended. Keep up the good work! Being a supporter of the angry old southern evangelical white man's party must be very satisfying.

RodB
08-05-2014, 10:01 AM
Oh, there's not the slightest need to do that. They're doing it themselves, with great energy and dedication.

The central fact of US politics over the past 20 years is that the right wing, and the Republican party in general, has moved farther and farther right. This is not opinion, it is objective verifiable fact. You may think this is a good thing. From my point of view it looks like they've gone completely mad. YMMV. But it is objective fact that positions on immigration that were standard among more moderate Republicans 20 or 30 years ago are currently anathema.

It is also true that the party is alienating Hispanic voters in droves; this is not because of any false image presented by others, but because of what they're doing and saying voluntarily. Some of the cooler heads in the party recognized this after they lost the 2012 election; there was a large report by the RNC on how they needed to broaden their base (here's an article about it (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/19/us/politics/republicans-plan-overhaul-for-2016-primary-season.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0), and you can read it here (http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/624293-republican-national-committees-growth-and.html)). They've done exactly the opposite of what the report recommended. Keep up the good work! Being a supporter of the angry old southern evangelical white man's party must be very satisfying.

Enforcing our immigration laws is a good thing for the country. New legislation that will finally once and for all clarify all situations so that we can move on and this problem goes away... that should be the goal. If hispanic voters in general are a single issue group... then the hell with them if they expect our laws to not pertain to to one specific group. I am hoping you are not right on this and I have read most americans want our country to stay solvent and secure the economy to improve and for us to have our immigration laws enforced. That cannot happen if we are inundated with Illegal aliens with such a massive cost to the country. Most americans would go along with commonsense immigration reform.... from what I have seen. 250,000 illegal aliens in a city the size of Austin is not a good thing and the negatives far outweigh the positives.

Polls showing majorities are for immigration reform means that commonsense laws that protect our sovereignty are in order.... not as you presume that people are for almost "open borders" or for amnesty for all the illegals here now.

RodB

TomF
08-05-2014, 10:06 AM
Rod,

You've mentioned many times that without control of a country's borders, they're really not a sovereign state.

Given the almost unimaginable length of border the US has, how precisely would you recommend that it be secured? Your entire Armed Forces could be set on picket duty, and still not cover all the ground. Remote cameras on the borders can only do so much - and America already uses them heavily.

Was America not a sovereign state during Prohibition, when your borders were porous enough to let millions of gallons of booze through? How about during the Cold War, when America under Ron was mighty enough to slay the Soviet Union, but was losing the War on Drugs. Were you not sovereign then?

In fact, using that criteria ... can you name one sovereign state, modern or historical?

RodB
08-05-2014, 10:33 AM
Rod,

You've mentioned many times that without control of a country's borders, they're really not a sovereign state.

Given the almost unimaginable length of border the US has, how precisely would you recommend that it be secured? Your entire Armed Forces could be set on picket duty, and still not cover all the ground. Remote cameras on the borders can only do so much - and America already uses them heavily.

Was America not a sovereign state during Prohibition, when your borders were porous enough to let millions of gallons of booze through? How about during the Cold War, when America under Ron was mighty enough to slay the Soviet Union, but was losing the War on Drugs. Were you not sovereign then?

In fact, using that criteria ... can you name one sovereign state, modern or historical?

Of course you are right about the reality of actually closing the border. The real problem is our laws not being enforced and the expectation of illegals that it will be quite easy to be able to stay if they get in here. None of our politicians in the past 50 years have done right by the American people and I think polls show most americans are for enforcing our immigration laws. Any city you see inundated with tens of thousand of illegals pays a serious price in many ways. I truly believe that any party that comes up with commonsense immigration law modifications that are fair to all "would be" immigrants and that stop this massive influx of illegals will be welcomed by the American voters. Perhaps this current rush of illegal minors will be the impetus to achieve such immigration reform. I also think the Obama administration does not want to solve this issue...but simply want to have the issue to inflict damage on the Republicans. They certainly did not attempt any immigration legislation when they had the majority if both the House and the Senate. At first Obama was for changing the 2008 law...then changed his mind. From a conservative perspective... the Obama administration's stance on most issues is beyond the limits that any Republican will go along with... and they are not interested in any compromise. Further...they continue to point at the Republicans as lacking compromise..... gimme a break.

Texas will be majority hispanic in a few years. So what... at least this increase will be american citizens. People all want the same things... better lives. Stats have shown hispanic education above high school is increasing. There are millions of examples of educated hispanics in my state with good jobs that required training. Most hispanics know what they can achieve if they pursue a better life here. The large amount of illegals is a completely different matter. It must be dealt with in a fair and humanitarian way that is fair to all law abiding "would be" immigrants and to the country as a whole.

RodB

TomF
08-05-2014, 10:39 AM
As I've said before, this is at least partly a matter of supply/demand economics respecting labour. If America aggressively prosecuted any employer who used illegal immigrant labour, the supply would dry up.

There would be predictable impacts on the price and profitability of certain things - like construction, landscaping, agriculture etc.. But they'd simply be subject to a market correction, eh? Consumers would pay more, or buy less.

If one wants to keep the present cost and profitability structure though, one either has to accept that illegal immigrant labour underpins it ... and suck it up. Or enable much more generous legislation respecting immigration and/or migrant labour. You really can't have it both ways.

David G
08-05-2014, 10:42 AM
Rod, Ron, Geng & Crew always make a lot of sense on these topics. Their facts are always spot on. They answer any contention with well-reasoned, even-handed, carefully considered rhetoric - buttressed by citations from nothing but the most respectable of sources. And they understand the core issues of our day ---

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10552604_807258162652501_3819205614079040886_n.jpg ?oh=019ea0b867886bbf353971b90e07d04c&oe=543742C8&__gda__=1412683170_ddf6c3748ef59a965626bb364f6a5bf 7

John Smith
08-05-2014, 10:49 AM
Don't ya think the Democrats are working very hard to convey a very negative and mostly false image of the Republicans as they have for the past 7 years...with the help of the massive left wing propaganda machine?

R

Republicans are creating their own image of being anti livable wage, anti-women, anti-non white folks. Nothing false about it; that's who they are.

John Smith
08-05-2014, 10:51 AM
Enforcing our immigration laws is a good thing for the country. New legislation that will finally once and for all clarify all situations so that we can move on and this problem goes away... that should be the goal. If hispanic voters in general are a single issue group... then the hell with them if they expect our laws to not pertain to to one specific group. I am hoping you are not right on this and I have read most americans want our country to stay solvent and secure the economy to improve and for us to have our immigration laws enforced. That cannot happen if we are inundated with Illegal aliens with such a massive cost to the country. Most americans would go along with commonsense immigration reform.... from what I have seen. 250,000 illegal aliens in a city the size of Austin is not a good thing and the negatives far outweigh the positives.

Polls showing majorities are for immigration reform means that commonsense laws that protect our sovereignty are in order.... not as you presume that people are for almost "open borders" or for amnesty for all the illegals here now.

RodB

Tell that to the Republicans. They're the ones who have refused any effort to seriously discuss immigration reform. "Seriously" being the operative word.

The kids coming in from south of Mexico are NOT COMING IN ILLEGALLY. Let's start by accepting that as fact. All the Republicans who were in congress in '08 voted for the law Obama is now following in regard to those kids. Do they not now have an obligation to properly fund it?

John Smith
08-05-2014, 10:56 AM
Of course you are right about the reality of actually closing the border. The real problem is our laws not being enforced and the expectation of illegals that it will be quite easy to be able to stay if they get in here. None of our politicians in the past 50 years have done right by the American people and I think polls show most americans are for enforcing our immigration laws. Any city you see inundated with tens of thousand of illegals pays a serious price in many ways. I truly believe that any party that comes up with commonsense immigration law modifications that are fair to all "would be" immigrants and that stop this massive influx of illegals will be welcomed by the American voters. Perhaps this current rush of illegal minors will be the impetus to achieve such immigration reform. I also think the Obama administration does not want to solve this issue...but simply want to have the issue to inflict damage on the Republicans. They certainly did not attempt any immigration legislation when they had the majority if both the House and the Senate. At first Obama was for changing the 2008 law...then changed his mind. From a conservative perspective... the Obama administration's stance on most issues is beyond the limits that any Republican will go along with... and they are not interested in any compromise. Further...they continue to point at the Republicans as lacking compromise..... gimme a break.

Texas will be majority hispanic in a few years. So what... at least this increase will be american citizens. People all want the same things... better lives. Stats have shown hispanic education above high school is increasing. There are millions of examples of educated hispanics in my state with good jobs that required training. Most hispanics know what they can achieve if they pursue a better life here. The large amount of illegals is a completely different matter. It must be dealt with in a fair and humanitarian way that is fair to all law abiding "would be" immigrants and to the country as a whole.

RodB

Isn't it strange that today's GOP so often invokes Reagan's name, and he granted amnesty? My question is, and has been, in regard to the adults who come here illegally to work is why does corporate America hire them? The GOP is the party funded by corporate America, if the Corporations wanted the border more secure it would have been more secure decades ago.

Simple solution, as I see it, is to seriously crack down on those who hire illegals. Cut down their incentive and they'll stop coming.

RodB
08-05-2014, 10:57 AM
As I've said before, this is at least partly a matter of supply/demand economics respecting labour. If America aggressively prosecuted any employer who used illegal immigrant labour, the supply would dry up.

There would be predictable impacts on the price and profitability of certain things - like construction, landscaping, agriculture etc.. But they'd simply be subject to a market correction, eh? Consumers would pay more, or buy less.

If one wants to keep the present cost and profitability structure though, one either has to accept that illegal immigrant labour underpins it ... and suck it up. Or enable much more generous legislation respecting immigration and/or migrant labour. You really can't have it both ways.

Agreed. But Federal law is not working and tougher state laws are controversial. Perhaps work permits with a legal status would be a start.

R


What Counts as “Hiring An Illegal Immigrant”?Under federal law, it is illegal for any employer to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work in the United States. This includes hiring contractors who employ illegal immigrants. There are criminal and civil penalties associated with this conduct.
It is also illegal for any employer not to verify work authorization. An employer who does not correctly complete an I-9 for each employee three days after the employee is hired is also subject to criminal and civil punishment.
What Are the Penalties For Hiring An Illegal Immigrant?For first offenders, there is a $250-$2,000 fine per illegal employee.
For a second offense, the fine is $2,000-$5,000 per illegal employee.
For employers who have been convicted of hiring illegal immigrants more than twice, the fine can range from $3000-$10,000 per employee. If the employer demonstrates a pervasive pattern of knowingly employing illegal immigrants, he or she could face additional fines, and up to six months in jail.
This does not include “harboring” illegal immigrants, or knowingly employing ten or more illegal immigrants in one year. Harboring an illegal immigrant can lead to ten years of prison time.
Additionally, under the Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organizations (RICO) (http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/racketeering.html) act, employers hiring illegal immigrants have been sued, resulting in large settlements. The lawfully documented workers of the Zirkle Fruit Company recently settled a class action lawsuit brought under RICO. The suit alleged that their employer knowingly hired undocumented workers, driving down their wages.
What If the Illegal Immigrant Is Using a False or Stolen Identity?Illegal immigrants who seek employment often engage in identity theft (http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/identity-theft-lawyers.html) in order to work in the United States. Employers are required to make a good faith effort to make sure that their employees are legally permitted to work in the country. This good faith effort includes using theSocial Security Administration’s website (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/bso/bsowelcome.htm) to check if a social security number matches the employee who gave the number.
Do I Need an Attorney To Help With My Employment Of Illegal Aliens?Employment laws can be a very difficult to understand, particularly when dealing with illegal immigrants. Consult an experienced employment attorney immediately if you have questions about hiring new employees.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/penalties-for-employers-hiring-illegal-immigrants.html

John Smith
08-05-2014, 11:02 AM
I think we look at this entire issue within the context of a still struggling economy. I have seen teachers blamed for the loss of private sector jobs. I've seen police and firefighters blamed for loss of private sector jobs. Of course, no one can point to a single job lost in the private sector due to too many teachers, but still that argument is made and many believe it. Some Americans simply want to blame someone for the lack of opportunity they, themselves, have.

We blame immigrants. Nothing new. We've a long history of blaming the "new" immigrants to this country, forgetting that our family was, at some point, immigrants.

The crisis is this country is not immigration. It is the divide between the super wealthy and the average Joe. It is all those jobs the job creators failed to create when they were given their tax cuts.

I submit that if we raise minimum wage, do a better job at getting everyone healthcare by looking at it as part of our infrastructure, and we spend money on rebuilding and modernizing our infrastructure along with going ahead with new industries developing new energies, etc. the economy will grow rapidly. Americans will see more opportunities and live better lives. Then we won't have to blame anyone, and immigrants will be less of a crisis.

RodB
08-05-2014, 11:27 AM
I think we look at this entire issue within the context of a still struggling economy. I have seen teachers blamed for the loss of private sector jobs. I've seen police and firefighters blamed for loss of private sector jobs. Of course, no one can point to a single job lost in the private sector due to too many teachers, but still that argument is made and many believe it. Some Americans simply want to blame someone for the lack of opportunity they, themselves, have.

We blame immigrants. Nothing new. We've a long history of blaming the "new" immigrants to this country, forgetting that our family was, at some point, immigrants.

The crisis is this country is not immigration. It is the divide between the super wealthy and the average Joe. It is all those jobs the job creators failed to create when they were given their tax cuts.

I submit that if we raise minimum wage, do a better job at getting everyone healthcare by looking at it as part of our infrastructure, and we spend money on rebuilding and modernizing our infrastructure along with going ahead with new industries developing new energies, etc. the economy will grow rapidly. Americans will see more opportunities and live better lives. Then we won't have to blame anyone, and immigrants will be less of a crisis.

All actions by the Obama administration have a political agenda. They seem to exhibit no ability to compromise or find any common ground... and the fact that the Obama admin was able to win the last election with the help of the left wing propaganda machine... has only meant that the Obama admin has continued to stay in campaign mode which is mainly any and everything that can damage Republicans. They actively stall on solutions to issues to keep such issues that they deem as good opportunities to gain political points and to continue to pound on the Republicans. All of this is counterproductive in finding solutions.

If we do not deal with the immigration PROBLEM... we will have another 11 million illegals in the next 10 years. How about at least accepting this reality? You won't even accept the massive costs to just having the illegal aliens in the country...

Your submissions are another story... and I'm sure the financial aspects of achieving such goals would be up to much debate between conservatives and the left.

RodB

Keith Wilson
08-05-2014, 11:35 AM
You won't even accept the massive costs to just having the illegal aliens in the country... No, because those 'massive costs' are very dubious, and most of them are offset by compensating benefits. That report you quoted was mostly bogus, as I explained in detail. You have an alarming tendency to make stuff up - or to quote those who do.

TomF
08-05-2014, 11:40 AM
...If we do not deal with the immigration PROBLEM... we will have another 11 million illegals in the next 10 years. How about at least accepting this reality? You won't even accept the massive costs to just having the illegal aliens in the country...
Rod, I don't think you can conclude that if nothing changes, you'll have another 11M illegal immigrants (that is, on top of your current illegal population) within 10 years. The Pew data Keith linked a couple of pages ago showed that the illegal population grew at a constant rate under each Presidency in the 15 years prior to Obama's presidency, adding 9M or so over that period. But since hitting a high point at about the end of Bush's terms, the illegal population dropped slightly, and levelled off.

That is: there's been no significant growth in the population under Obama - in fact, the bipartisan trend of constant growth was broken. There's no reason to think that continuing to follow Obama's present policies, by itself, will somehow re-ignite that growth trend and make the present 11M illegal immigrants swell to 22M in ten years.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/09/PH-unauthorized-immigrants-1-01.png

RodB
08-05-2014, 03:44 PM
Rod, I don't think you can conclude that if nothing changes, you'll have another 11M illegal immigrants (that is, on top of your current illegal population) within 10 years. The Pew data Keith linked a couple of pages ago showed that the illegal population grew at a constant rate under each Presidency in the 15 years prior to Obama's presidency, adding 9M or so over that period. But since hitting a high point at about the end of Bush's terms, the illegal population dropped slightly, and levelled off.

That is: there's been no significant growth in the population under Obama - in fact, the bipartisan trend of constant growth was broken. There's no reason to think that continuing to follow Obama's present policies, by itself, will somehow re-ignite that growth trend and make the present 11M illegal immigrants swell to 22M in ten years.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/09/PH-unauthorized-immigrants-1-01.png

Good... now we need to come up with a solution that is reasonable and does not give special privileges to those already here illegally compared to law abiding immigrants trying to come to the USA. Work permits and a path to citizenship will be part of it but we must change the law so that the constant stream of illegal aliens stops.

R