Resurfacing Stones

[Bob Quick]

Does anyone have ideas or suggestions for resurfacing sharpening stones? My water stones are starting to show significant wear in the center on the broad surfaces. I have thought about replacement but if there is a reasonable method for surfacing, that would be nice.

Yes, I know, I should be using the stones so that wear does not show. But I use them ALOT.

Bob

[Bob Quick]

Does anyone have ideas or suggestions for resurfacing sharpening stones? My water stones are starting to show significant wear in the center on the broad surfaces. I have thought about replacement but if there is a reasonable method for surfacing, that would be nice.

Yes, I know, I should be using the stones so that wear does not show. But I use them ALOT.

Bob

[Bob Quick]

Does anyone have ideas or suggestions for resurfacing sharpening stones? My water stones are starting to show significant wear in the center on the broad surfaces. I have thought about replacement but if there is a reasonable method for surfacing, that would be nice.

Yes, I know, I should be using the stones so that wear does not show. But I use them ALOT.

Bob

[TomF]

One method is to sprinkle loose silicon carbide grit on plate glass, then rub the stone (using plenty of water to flush).

Tom.

[TomF]

One method is to sprinkle loose silicon carbide grit on plate glass, then rub the stone (using plenty of water to flush).

Tom.

[TomF]

One method is to sprinkle loose silicon carbide grit on plate glass, then rub the stone (using plenty of water to flush).

Tom.

[Dave Fleming]

Wood working suppliers catloges are full of flattening plates and abrasive compounds for just that purpose.

Woodcraft
Japan Woodworker
Hida Tool

for starters.

[Dave Fleming]

Wood working suppliers catloges are full of flattening plates and abrasive compounds for just that purpose.

Woodcraft
Japan Woodworker
Hida Tool

for starters.

[Dave Fleming]

Wood working suppliers catloges are full of flattening plates and abrasive compounds for just that purpose.

Woodcraft
Japan Woodworker
Hida Tool

for starters.

[Ken Hutchins]

A flattening plate is not required if you have more than one stone to flatten. Work the stones against one another with the grit and water. The best results are attained if you have 3 stones, work the three to each other 2 at a time. This will result in perfect flatness.

[Ken Hutchins]

A flattening plate is not required if you have more than one stone to flatten. Work the stones against one another with the grit and water. The best results are attained if you have 3 stones, work the three to each other 2 at a time. This will result in perfect flatness.

[Ken Hutchins]

A flattening plate is not required if you have more than one stone to flatten. Work the stones against one another with the grit and water. The best results are attained if you have 3 stones, work the three to each other 2 at a time. This will result in perfect flatness.

[SC-Lion]

I flaten mine with a 1000 grit water stone, for the 1000 grit stone I use a second 1000 stone. It goes faster than you would think. I give the stones a few swipes together everytime after using them to keep them flat. It may not produce a perfectly flat surface, but its been close enough for me.

-Gary

Edited to add: Sorry Ken, your post got there while I was posting mine. I agree.

[ 09-02-2004, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: SC-Lion ]

[SC-Lion]

I flaten mine with a 1000 grit water stone, for the 1000 grit stone I use a second 1000 stone. It goes faster than you would think. I give the stones a few swipes together everytime after using them to keep them flat. It may not produce a perfectly flat surface, but its been close enough for me.

-Gary

Edited to add: Sorry Ken, your post got there while I was posting mine. I agree.

[ 09-02-2004, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: SC-Lion ]

[SC-Lion]

I flaten mine with a 1000 grit water stone, for the 1000 grit stone I use a second 1000 stone. It goes faster than you would think. I give the stones a few swipes together everytime after using them to keep them flat. It may not produce a perfectly flat surface, but its been close enough for me.

-Gary

Edited to add: Sorry Ken, your post got there while I was posting mine. I agree.

[ 09-02-2004, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: SC-Lion ]

[Bob Smalser]

I don't have any water stones, but I flatten India and other soft composite stones by holding them to the side of the 8" grinding wheel.

As you wear out your water and India stones, I'd gradually replace them with Arkansas oil stones...they literally stay dead flat for generations.

One soft, one hard, and one black are all you need...along with a soft and hard slip stone for your gouges. No expensive abrasive paper or diamond paste to run out of...and kerosene, WD-40, tap fluid, or light motor oil work just fine as lube. They do the newer and harder A2 steels, too.

The average guy doesn't use his stones enough to wear them out, so water stones or abrasive paper on glass are fine...but if you are using them enuf to hollow them on a regular basis, then a switch to natural oil stones will give you one more thing you don't have to mess with...ever.

Lotsa silly hoopla out there over "old" versus "new" Arkansas stones...all of it is hoopla. My newer stones work just as well as Uncle Paul's ancient Norton handmedowns....stones he probably got from his carriage maker father.

These folks carry serious stones..spendy, but your great grandchildren will also get to use them:

http://www.hallsproedge.com/wide_bench_stones.htm#5

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3302194/40548193.jpg

[ 09-02-2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

I don't have any water stones, but I flatten India and other soft composite stones by holding them to the side of the 8" grinding wheel.

As you wear out your water and India stones, I'd gradually replace them with Arkansas oil stones...they literally stay dead flat for generations.

One soft, one hard, and one black are all you need...along with a soft and hard slip stone for your gouges. No expensive abrasive paper or diamond paste to run out of...and kerosene, WD-40, tap fluid, or light motor oil work just fine as lube. They do the newer and harder A2 steels, too.

The average guy doesn't use his stones enough to wear them out, so water stones or abrasive paper on glass are fine...but if you are using them enuf to hollow them on a regular basis, then a switch to natural oil stones will give you one more thing you don't have to mess with...ever.

Lotsa silly hoopla out there over "old" versus "new" Arkansas stones...all of it is hoopla. My newer stones work just as well as Uncle Paul's ancient Norton handmedowns....stones he probably got from his carriage maker father.

These folks carry serious stones..spendy, but your great grandchildren will also get to use them:

http://www.hallsproedge.com/wide_bench_stones.htm#5

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3302194/40548193.jpg

[ 09-02-2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

I don't have any water stones, but I flatten India and other soft composite stones by holding them to the side of the 8" grinding wheel.

As you wear out your water and India stones, I'd gradually replace them with Arkansas oil stones...they literally stay dead flat for generations.

One soft, one hard, and one black are all you need...along with a soft and hard slip stone for your gouges. No expensive abrasive paper or diamond paste to run out of...and kerosene, WD-40, tap fluid, or light motor oil work just fine as lube. They do the newer and harder A2 steels, too.

The average guy doesn't use his stones enough to wear them out, so water stones or abrasive paper on glass are fine...but if you are using them enuf to hollow them on a regular basis, then a switch to natural oil stones will give you one more thing you don't have to mess with...ever.

Lotsa silly hoopla out there over "old" versus "new" Arkansas stones...all of it is hoopla. My newer stones work just as well as Uncle Paul's ancient Norton handmedowns....stones he probably got from his carriage maker father.

These folks carry serious stones..spendy, but your great grandchildren will also get to use them:

http://www.hallsproedge.com/wide_bench_stones.htm#5

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3302194/40548193.jpg

[ 09-02-2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Dave Fleming]

On my 'lust list' is a set of Arkansas replacement stones from Halls for one of my Norton Multi Stone rigs.

[Dave Fleming]

On my 'lust list' is a set of Arkansas replacement stones from Halls for one of my Norton Multi Stone rigs.

[Dave Fleming]

On my 'lust list' is a set of Arkansas replacement stones from Halls for one of my Norton Multi Stone rigs.

[Bob Quick]

Thanks Guys
I looked at Hall's website and the stones aren't THAT spendy. More than modern synthetics but I'd rather spend the money and get good stuff. Kind of like a new set of Stanley chisels or an old set of Marples. I take the Marples any day. One at a time, I think, starting with the black since my fine stone is in the worst shape. I didn't see any slip stones on the site. Do you know where to get them?

Thanks
Bob

[Bob Quick]

Thanks Guys
I looked at Hall's website and the stones aren't THAT spendy. More than modern synthetics but I'd rather spend the money and get good stuff. Kind of like a new set of Stanley chisels or an old set of Marples. I take the Marples any day. One at a time, I think, starting with the black since my fine stone is in the worst shape. I didn't see any slip stones on the site. Do you know where to get them?

Thanks
Bob

[Bob Quick]

Thanks Guys
I looked at Hall's website and the stones aren't THAT spendy. More than modern synthetics but I'd rather spend the money and get good stuff. Kind of like a new set of Stanley chisels or an old set of Marples. I take the Marples any day. One at a time, I think, starting with the black since my fine stone is in the worst shape. I didn't see any slip stones on the site. Do you know where to get them?

Thanks
Bob

[Gary E]

Ken,
"work the three to each other 2 at a time. This will result in perfect flatness."

There ya go telling how to make surface plates 3 at a time.
smile.gif

You ever do that?
I made 3 CI Hand Scraped squares that way, sold 2 still have one.

G

[ 09-02-2004, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Gary E]

Ken,
"work the three to each other 2 at a time. This will result in perfect flatness."

There ya go telling how to make surface plates 3 at a time.
smile.gif

You ever do that?
I made 3 CI Hand Scraped squares that way, sold 2 still have one.

G

[ 09-02-2004, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Gary E]

Ken,
"work the three to each other 2 at a time. This will result in perfect flatness."

There ya go telling how to make surface plates 3 at a time.
smile.gif

You ever do that?
I made 3 CI Hand Scraped squares that way, sold 2 still have one.

G

[ 09-02-2004, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[John Meachen]

I have tried using abrasive particles on glass to flatten waterstones and was left with coarse particles embedded in the face of the stone. For a modest amount of money I obtained a flattening stone which is used in conjunction with water and which does a good job in very little time.
I tend to have doubts about using one stone to flatten another.Isn't there a strong possibility that you will end up with two flat but blunt stones?
My grandfather liked to use sharp sand on glass with plenty of water to flatten his stones and it is a system that has worked for me with India stones and carborundum.

[John Meachen]

I have tried using abrasive particles on glass to flatten waterstones and was left with coarse particles embedded in the face of the stone. For a modest amount of money I obtained a flattening stone which is used in conjunction with water and which does a good job in very little time.
I tend to have doubts about using one stone to flatten another.Isn't there a strong possibility that you will end up with two flat but blunt stones?
My grandfather liked to use sharp sand on glass with plenty of water to flatten his stones and it is a system that has worked for me with India stones and carborundum.

[Donn]

"One soft, one hard, and one black are all you need..." Bob, in view of the fact that they never wear out, would the soft/hard combination stone serve, with a black stone on the side?

[Donn]

"One soft, one hard, and one black are all you need..." Bob, in view of the fact that they never wear out, would the soft/hard combination stone serve, with a black stone on the side?

[John Meachen]

I have tried using abrasive particles on glass to flatten waterstones and was left with coarse particles embedded in the face of the stone. For a modest amount of money I obtained a flattening stone which is used in conjunction with water and which does a good job in very little time.
I tend to have doubts about using one stone to flatten another.Isn't there a strong possibility that you will end up with two flat but blunt stones?
My grandfather liked to use sharp sand on glass with plenty of water to flatten his stones and it is a system that has worked for me with India stones and carborundum.

[Donn]

"One soft, one hard, and one black are all you need..." Bob, in view of the fact that they never wear out, would the soft/hard combination stone serve, with a black stone on the side?

[Ken Hutchins]

Gary
Oh yes, been there done that, 1 set of plates, a few other small tools and a few machine and fixture parts and dozens of round bearings. smile.gif :( :D Didn't know wether to smile, frown or grin. :confused:

[Ken Hutchins]

Gary
Oh yes, been there done that, 1 set of plates, a few other small tools and a few machine and fixture parts and dozens of round bearings. smile.gif :( :D Didn't know wether to smile, frown or grin. :confused:

[Ken Hutchins]

Gary
Oh yes, been there done that, 1 set of plates, a few other small tools and a few machine and fixture parts and dozens of round bearings. smile.gif :( :D Didn't know wether to smile, frown or grin. :confused:

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Donn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"One soft, one hard, and one black are all you need..." Bob, in view of the fact that they never wear out, would the soft/hard combination stone serve, with a black stone on the side?</font>[/QUOTE]Sure...I don't use the black stone all the time, it's so fine....but it does the A2 steel well, and for all sharpening it is like stropping only more precise.

What I don't have any more is a 8" hard felt wheel for my buffer grinder. A hundred bucks for a good heavy one, so I was reluctant to filch one from the last govenment gunsmith shop I worked in. Go from the black stone to that hard felt loaded with Knifemaker's Green rouge, and there doesn't exist a better edge. I use a tight-stitched muslin wheel now...and it's OK...but it ain't quite the same thing.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3302194/47085511.jpg

Natural slip stones are on Ebay occasionally and hard felt wheels and rouges are available from gunsmith supplier Brownells.com.

[ 09-02-2004, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Donn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"One soft, one hard, and one black are all you need..." Bob, in view of the fact that they never wear out, would the soft/hard combination stone serve, with a black stone on the side?</font>[/QUOTE]Sure...I don't use the black stone all the time, it's so fine....but it does the A2 steel well, and for all sharpening it is like stropping only more precise.

What I don't have any more is a 8" hard felt wheel for my buffer grinder. A hundred bucks for a good heavy one, so I was reluctant to filch one from the last govenment gunsmith shop I worked in. Go from the black stone to that hard felt loaded with Knifemaker's Green rouge, and there doesn't exist a better edge. I use a tight-stitched muslin wheel now...and it's OK...but it ain't quite the same thing.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3302194/47085511.jpg

Natural slip stones are on Ebay occasionally and hard felt wheels and rouges are available from gunsmith supplier Brownells.com.

[ 09-02-2004, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Donn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"One soft, one hard, and one black are all you need..." Bob, in view of the fact that they never wear out, would the soft/hard combination stone serve, with a black stone on the side?</font>[/QUOTE]Sure...I don't use the black stone all the time, it's so fine....but it does the A2 steel well, and for all sharpening it is like stropping only more precise.

What I don't have any more is a 8" hard felt wheel for my buffer grinder. A hundred bucks for a good heavy one, so I was reluctant to filch one from the last govenment gunsmith shop I worked in. Go from the black stone to that hard felt loaded with Knifemaker's Green rouge, and there doesn't exist a better edge. I use a tight-stitched muslin wheel now...and it's OK...but it ain't quite the same thing.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3302194/47085511.jpg

Natural slip stones are on Ebay occasionally and hard felt wheels and rouges are available from gunsmith supplier Brownells.com.

[ 09-02-2004, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[TimH]

They say you can use diamond stones to flatten water stones. I have been reluctant to use my 10" DMT to flatten my water stones though. It was just so expensive! :eek:

[TimH]

They say you can use diamond stones to flatten water stones. I have been reluctant to use my 10" DMT to flatten my water stones though. It was just so expensive! :eek:

[TimH]

They say you can use diamond stones to flatten water stones. I have been reluctant to use my 10" DMT to flatten my water stones though. It was just so expensive! :eek:

[JimConlin]

Christmas is coming!

[JimConlin]

Christmas is coming!

[JimConlin]

Christmas is coming!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, I just use a circular motion on a stone paving slab, dipping the oilstone in a bucket of water every minute or so.

Makes a helluva mess of the paving slab, but it gets the stone flat pretty darn quick.

That's what I was taught, years ago, in an English boatyard. My father said don't do it with Arkansas stones as they are too valuable and you should keep them decent anyway, but it rescues a cheap stone just fine.

Alas my sister got my father's Arkansas stones apart from the small black one that he used for scalpels. Thanks for the website, Bob; I will make a note of that for Christmas!

(Now you can all jump on me...)

[ 09-03-2004, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, I just use a circular motion on a stone paving slab, dipping the oilstone in a bucket of water every minute or so.

Makes a helluva mess of the paving slab, but it gets the stone flat pretty darn quick.

That's what I was taught, years ago, in an English boatyard. My father said don't do it with Arkansas stones as they are too valuable and you should keep them decent anyway, but it rescues a cheap stone just fine.

Alas my sister got my father's Arkansas stones apart from the small black one that he used for scalpels. Thanks for the website, Bob; I will make a note of that for Christmas!

(Now you can all jump on me...)

[ 09-03-2004, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, I just use a circular motion on a stone paving slab, dipping the oilstone in a bucket of water every minute or so.

Makes a helluva mess of the paving slab, but it gets the stone flat pretty darn quick.

That's what I was taught, years ago, in an English boatyard. My father said don't do it with Arkansas stones as they are too valuable and you should keep them decent anyway, but it rescues a cheap stone just fine.

Alas my sister got my father's Arkansas stones apart from the small black one that he used for scalpels. Thanks for the website, Bob; I will make a note of that for Christmas!

(Now you can all jump on me...)

[ 09-03-2004, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[Tom Lathrop]

I've been using the stone against stone method that Ken mentioned for over 20 years. It works and I'm still using the same three stones although the 6000 grit stone has finally cracked and separated from the wooden backing board so it stays dry until needed.

[Tom Lathrop]

I've been using the stone against stone method that Ken mentioned for over 20 years. It works and I'm still using the same three stones although the 6000 grit stone has finally cracked and separated from the wooden backing board so it stays dry until needed.

[Tom Lathrop]

I've been using the stone against stone method that Ken mentioned for over 20 years. It works and I'm still using the same three stones although the 6000 grit stone has finally cracked and separated from the wooden backing board so it stays dry until needed.

[Dave Fleming]

Page 87 of that Woodcraft catalog has a number of slip stones for gouges and carving tools.

[Dave Fleming]

Page 87 of that Woodcraft catalog has a number of slip stones for gouges and carving tools.

[Dave Fleming]

Page 87 of that Woodcraft catalog has a number of slip stones for gouges and carving tools.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

I flatten my water stones with a coarse diamond stone. Except for my coarsest one. 250 maybe? For that one I use a concrete block. Works for me.

I just got a catalog from Garrett Wade. They have a special sale on a combo set of American made waterstones: a 220/1000 and a 4000/8000 for $99.95. For another $69.20 you can get a 'Ceramic Waterstone Flattening Plate.' smile.gif

Let us know how you make out.

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

I flatten my water stones with a coarse diamond stone. Except for my coarsest one. 250 maybe? For that one I use a concrete block. Works for me.

I just got a catalog from Garrett Wade. They have a special sale on a combo set of American made waterstones: a 220/1000 and a 4000/8000 for $99.95. For another $69.20 you can get a 'Ceramic Waterstone Flattening Plate.' smile.gif

Let us know how you make out.

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

I flatten my water stones with a coarse diamond stone. Except for my coarsest one. 250 maybe? For that one I use a concrete block. Works for me.

I just got a catalog from Garrett Wade. They have a special sale on a combo set of American made waterstones: a 220/1000 and a 4000/8000 for $99.95. For another $69.20 you can get a 'Ceramic Waterstone Flattening Plate.' smile.gif

Let us know how you make out.

Steven

[dmede]

I just did this yesterday. It is no more complicated that laying a piece of wet/dray sand paper over a flat surface (marble, glass etc...), draw a grid over your water stones face and then start rubbing on the wet sand papper. As it flattens you will see the pencil lines disapear. When they are all gone, its flat!

Couldn't be easier, you certainly dont need to replace them.

[dmede]

I just did this yesterday. It is no more complicated that laying a piece of wet/dray sand paper over a flat surface (marble, glass etc...), draw a grid over your water stones face and then start rubbing on the wet sand papper. As it flattens you will see the pencil lines disapear. When they are all gone, its flat!

Couldn't be easier, you certainly dont need to replace them.

[dmede]

I just did this yesterday. It is no more complicated that laying a piece of wet/dray sand paper over a flat surface (marble, glass etc...), draw a grid over your water stones face and then start rubbing on the wet sand papper. As it flattens you will see the pencil lines disapear. When they are all gone, its flat!

Couldn't be easier, you certainly dont need to replace them.

[Rob Hazard]

I use the same method that Ken describes; just rub them together every so often. They also stay true longer if you use the narrow sides for sharpening your small tools instead of the broad faces. One side I use for knives and it's hollowed but I don't care!
I still use Indias and Arkies in my home shop where water freezes in the winter, but at work where it's warm I use only water stones. They cut much faster and time is money. Keep 'em wet in a big Tupperware container.

[Rob Hazard]

I use the same method that Ken describes; just rub them together every so often. They also stay true longer if you use the narrow sides for sharpening your small tools instead of the broad faces. One side I use for knives and it's hollowed but I don't care!
I still use Indias and Arkies in my home shop where water freezes in the winter, but at work where it's warm I use only water stones. They cut much faster and time is money. Keep 'em wet in a big Tupperware container.

[Rob Hazard]

I use the same method that Ken describes; just rub them together every so often. They also stay true longer if you use the narrow sides for sharpening your small tools instead of the broad faces. One side I use for knives and it's hollowed but I don't care!
I still use Indias and Arkies in my home shop where water freezes in the winter, but at work where it's warm I use only water stones. They cut much faster and time is money. Keep 'em wet in a big Tupperware container.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

FYI - a 6 inch hard felt wheel is $30 at Lee Valley.

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

FYI - a 6 inch hard felt wheel is $30 at Lee Valley.

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

FYI - a 6 inch hard felt wheel is $30 at Lee Valley.

Steven

[Bob Smalser]

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/sharpening/08m4001s1.jpg

Thanks, Steve...but compare the pics and descriptions at the two sites....not quite the same thing as at Brownells.

Professional gunsmith's Paramount heavy hard felt wheel:

088-281-625 8" Hard Felt Polishing Wheel 5/8" Arbor $92.89

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDeta il.aspx?p=1362 (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1362)

http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/088061500.jpg

[ 09-03-2004, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/sharpening/08m4001s1.jpg

Thanks, Steve...but compare the pics and descriptions at the two sites....not quite the same thing as at Brownells.

Professional gunsmith's Paramount heavy hard felt wheel:

088-281-625 8" Hard Felt Polishing Wheel 5/8" Arbor $92.89

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDeta il.aspx?p=1362 (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1362)

http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/088061500.jpg

[ 09-03-2004, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/sharpening/08m4001s1.jpg

Thanks, Steve...but compare the pics and descriptions at the two sites....not quite the same thing as at Brownells.

Professional gunsmith's Paramount heavy hard felt wheel:

088-281-625 8" Hard Felt Polishing Wheel 5/8" Arbor $92.89

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDeta il.aspx?p=1362 (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1362)

http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/088061500.jpg

[ 09-03-2004, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[capt jake]

An alternative to felt is MDF. I use it all the time to hone my lathe tools.

Cut a circular piece and dress it so that is it 'round' (ie, I run it on the lathe with a scraper to acomplish this). Then use some 'compound', I use jewelers rouge or similar to hone the edge of your tool. This MDF stuff works incredibly well; it should as it is so darned hard on blades! smile.gif .

Of course it doesn't conform to the edge as well as a felt wheel does. :(

[capt jake]

An alternative to felt is MDF. I use it all the time to hone my lathe tools.

Cut a circular piece and dress it so that is it 'round' (ie, I run it on the lathe with a scraper to acomplish this). Then use some 'compound', I use jewelers rouge or similar to hone the edge of your tool. This MDF stuff works incredibly well; it should as it is so darned hard on blades! smile.gif .

Of course it doesn't conform to the edge as well as a felt wheel does. :(

[capt jake]

An alternative to felt is MDF. I use it all the time to hone my lathe tools.

Cut a circular piece and dress it so that is it 'round' (ie, I run it on the lathe with a scraper to acomplish this). Then use some 'compound', I use jewelers rouge or similar to hone the edge of your tool. This MDF stuff works incredibly well; it should as it is so darned hard on blades! smile.gif .

Of course it doesn't conform to the edge as well as a felt wheel does. :(

[Bruce Hooke]

After using the sandpaper on glass method for years and being very frustrated with how long it took, I followed a suggestion I picked up from Aime Fraser's demonstration at the last Rockland WoodenBoat show and switched to using a DMT "Duo-Sharp" diamond stone. It works brilliantly -- it's quick and very effective. Aime recommends that you flatten your water stone with a few passes on the diamond stone every time you use it. I do not do this but I do try to remember to do it when I am going to be doing something where flatness is really important like the back of a plane iron or chisel. Per Aime's recommendation, I got the plastic base for the diamond stone which has a nice built in handle, so it's easy to pick up both it and the water stone and rub them together. Be cautious about the (non-DMT) diamond stones that have a steel base -- the one I get about 10 years ago was nowhere near flat. When I am not using the DMT stone for flatening my water stones I find it very useful for making the first pass at flatening the back of very out of true plane irons and chisels.

I used to use Arkansas stones but once I switched to water stones I never went back -- the Arkansas stones I used took forever to do anything. Also, my Father uses Arkansas stones and his primary one has a MAJOR dip in the surface. He does not use it a lot but he has been using it for many years. He probably is not as good as some at being careful to use all parts of the stone when sharpening but still, his stone has for years been essentially useless for flattening anything. I'm not sure why his Arkansas stone wore out so fast when other people's stones apparently did not, but I am hear to say that Arkansas stones can most definitely get worn down, and rather quickly at that. For flattening the back of a plane iron or a chisel you want a stone that is DEAD flat...

[Bruce Hooke]

After using the sandpaper on glass method for years and being very frustrated with how long it took, I followed a suggestion I picked up from Aime Fraser's demonstration at the last Rockland WoodenBoat show and switched to using a DMT "Duo-Sharp" diamond stone. It works brilliantly -- it's quick and very effective. Aime recommends that you flatten your water stone with a few passes on the diamond stone every time you use it. I do not do this but I do try to remember to do it when I am going to be doing something where flatness is really important like the back of a plane iron or chisel. Per Aime's recommendation, I got the plastic base for the diamond stone which has a nice built in handle, so it's easy to pick up both it and the water stone and rub them together. Be cautious about the (non-DMT) diamond stones that have a steel base -- the one I get about 10 years ago was nowhere near flat. When I am not using the DMT stone for flatening my water stones I find it very useful for making the first pass at flatening the back of very out of true plane irons and chisels.

I used to use Arkansas stones but once I switched to water stones I never went back -- the Arkansas stones I used took forever to do anything. Also, my Father uses Arkansas stones and his primary one has a MAJOR dip in the surface. He does not use it a lot but he has been using it for many years. He probably is not as good as some at being careful to use all parts of the stone when sharpening but still, his stone has for years been essentially useless for flattening anything. I'm not sure why his Arkansas stone wore out so fast when other people's stones apparently did not, but I am hear to say that Arkansas stones can most definitely get worn down, and rather quickly at that. For flattening the back of a plane iron or a chisel you want a stone that is DEAD flat...

[Bruce Hooke]

After using the sandpaper on glass method for years and being very frustrated with how long it took, I followed a suggestion I picked up from Aime Fraser's demonstration at the last Rockland WoodenBoat show and switched to using a DMT "Duo-Sharp" diamond stone. It works brilliantly -- it's quick and very effective. Aime recommends that you flatten your water stone with a few passes on the diamond stone every time you use it. I do not do this but I do try to remember to do it when I am going to be doing something where flatness is really important like the back of a plane iron or chisel. Per Aime's recommendation, I got the plastic base for the diamond stone which has a nice built in handle, so it's easy to pick up both it and the water stone and rub them together. Be cautious about the (non-DMT) diamond stones that have a steel base -- the one I get about 10 years ago was nowhere near flat. When I am not using the DMT stone for flatening my water stones I find it very useful for making the first pass at flatening the back of very out of true plane irons and chisels.

I used to use Arkansas stones but once I switched to water stones I never went back -- the Arkansas stones I used took forever to do anything. Also, my Father uses Arkansas stones and his primary one has a MAJOR dip in the surface. He does not use it a lot but he has been using it for many years. He probably is not as good as some at being careful to use all parts of the stone when sharpening but still, his stone has for years been essentially useless for flattening anything. I'm not sure why his Arkansas stone wore out so fast when other people's stones apparently did not, but I am hear to say that Arkansas stones can most definitely get worn down, and rather quickly at that. For flattening the back of a plane iron or a chisel you want a stone that is DEAD flat...

[Bruce Hooke]

P.S. Anyone thinking of getting sharpening stones would be well advised to check out Aime Fraser's article in Fine Woodworking comparing different sharpening systems. It appeared a year or so ago IIRC. As I recall, one particular type of water stone came out the clear winner. I believe she compared both sharpening speed and final sharpness.

[Bruce Hooke]

P.S. Anyone thinking of getting sharpening stones would be well advised to check out Aime Fraser's article in Fine Woodworking comparing different sharpening systems. It appeared a year or so ago IIRC. As I recall, one particular type of water stone came out the clear winner. I believe she compared both sharpening speed and final sharpness.

[Bruce Hooke]

P.S. Anyone thinking of getting sharpening stones would be well advised to check out Aime Fraser's article in Fine Woodworking comparing different sharpening systems. It appeared a year or so ago IIRC. As I recall, one particular type of water stone came out the clear winner. I believe she compared both sharpening speed and final sharpness.

[Bob Smalser]

...article in Fine Woodworking comparing different sharpening systems. Lotsa writers out there...especially in FWW...give me the impression they are getting royalties of some sort from one gizmo company or the other. Either that or they are just flighty, and willing to throw money at whatever doodad comes along. One of the reasons I stopped taking that mag when it started going trendy a dozen or so years ago.

And I'm sure there are poor quality Arkansas stones out there, just like I'm sure I could wear a hollow in a soft one if I tried hard enuf.

Speed of sharpening? Kerosene is the fastest. Maybe 15 seconds for a chisel touchup a couple times a day....60 seconds for a Stanley plane iron resharpening...3-4 minutes for a trendy modern A2 iron....to 5 minutes to flatten a back after grinding. Anything more than that, and I suspect the first step should be the grinder....only the back and secondary bevel require honing.

[ 09-05-2004, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

...article in Fine Woodworking comparing different sharpening systems. Lotsa writers out there...especially in FWW...give me the impression they are getting royalties of some sort from one gizmo company or the other. Either that or they are just flighty, and willing to throw money at whatever doodad comes along. One of the reasons I stopped taking that mag when it started going trendy a dozen or so years ago.

And I'm sure there are poor quality Arkansas stones out there, just like I'm sure I could wear a hollow in a soft one if I tried hard enuf.

Speed of sharpening? Kerosene is the fastest. Maybe 15 seconds for a chisel touchup a couple times a day....60 seconds for a Stanley plane iron resharpening...3-4 minutes for a trendy modern A2 iron....to 5 minutes to flatten a back after grinding. Anything more than that, and I suspect the first step should be the grinder....only the back and secondary bevel require honing.

[ 09-05-2004, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

...article in Fine Woodworking comparing different sharpening systems. Lotsa writers out there...especially in FWW...give me the impression they are getting royalties of some sort from one gizmo company or the other. Either that or they are just flighty, and willing to throw money at whatever doodad comes along. One of the reasons I stopped taking that mag when it started going trendy a dozen or so years ago.

And I'm sure there are poor quality Arkansas stones out there, just like I'm sure I could wear a hollow in a soft one if I tried hard enuf.

Speed of sharpening? Kerosene is the fastest. Maybe 15 seconds for a chisel touchup a couple times a day....60 seconds for a Stanley plane iron resharpening...3-4 minutes for a trendy modern A2 iron....to 5 minutes to flatten a back after grinding. Anything more than that, and I suspect the first step should be the grinder....only the back and secondary bevel require honing.

[ 09-05-2004, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Having heard Aime Fraser speak at the WoodenBoat show and having read her IMOOP excellent articles in both Fine Woodworking and WoodenBoat I VERY much doubt that she is either get royalities from anyone or simply flighty. I think she is simply saying what has worked well for her and why. In any case, it would be hard to fake the tests used in the Fine Woodworking article I mentioned. As I recall they were pretty objective tests. So, I suspect this is simply a case of ask two woodworkers for an opinion and you will likely get three answers, any one of which will work well under the right circumstances. Clearly Arkansas stones work well for many people, otherwise they would not be sold by the reputable dealers in woodworking tools, but clearly water stones work well for many people too...

Your comment about kerosene reminded me of another reason why I switched to water stones -- I did not much like getting oil or kerosene on my hands and then having to be careful about washing my hands before touching any wood to avoid stains in the wood or bad glue joints due to contamination. I have heard people express the reverse concern -- that a water based sharpening system would create rust problems -- but this has simply never been the case for me and I have never come across anyone who had evidence of it being a real problem rather than just a hypothetical concern.

I should also note that I'm sure part of the reason why water stones work so much better for me than oil stones is because I am a much better woodworker now than I was when I last used oil stones...

[Bruce Hooke]

Having heard Aime Fraser speak at the WoodenBoat show and having read her IMOOP excellent articles in both Fine Woodworking and WoodenBoat I VERY much doubt that she is either get royalities from anyone or simply flighty. I think she is simply saying what has worked well for her and why. In any case, it would be hard to fake the tests used in the Fine Woodworking article I mentioned. As I recall they were pretty objective tests. So, I suspect this is simply a case of ask two woodworkers for an opinion and you will likely get three answers, any one of which will work well under the right circumstances. Clearly Arkansas stones work well for many people, otherwise they would not be sold by the reputable dealers in woodworking tools, but clearly water stones work well for many people too...

Your comment about kerosene reminded me of another reason why I switched to water stones -- I did not much like getting oil or kerosene on my hands and then having to be careful about washing my hands before touching any wood to avoid stains in the wood or bad glue joints due to contamination. I have heard people express the reverse concern -- that a water based sharpening system would create rust problems -- but this has simply never been the case for me and I have never come across anyone who had evidence of it being a real problem rather than just a hypothetical concern.

I should also note that I'm sure part of the reason why water stones work so much better for me than oil stones is because I am a much better woodworker now than I was when I last used oil stones...

[Bruce Hooke]

Having heard Aime Fraser speak at the WoodenBoat show and having read her IMOOP excellent articles in both Fine Woodworking and WoodenBoat I VERY much doubt that she is either get royalities from anyone or simply flighty. I think she is simply saying what has worked well for her and why. In any case, it would be hard to fake the tests used in the Fine Woodworking article I mentioned. As I recall they were pretty objective tests. So, I suspect this is simply a case of ask two woodworkers for an opinion and you will likely get three answers, any one of which will work well under the right circumstances. Clearly Arkansas stones work well for many people, otherwise they would not be sold by the reputable dealers in woodworking tools, but clearly water stones work well for many people too...

Your comment about kerosene reminded me of another reason why I switched to water stones -- I did not much like getting oil or kerosene on my hands and then having to be careful about washing my hands before touching any wood to avoid stains in the wood or bad glue joints due to contamination. I have heard people express the reverse concern -- that a water based sharpening system would create rust problems -- but this has simply never been the case for me and I have never come across anyone who had evidence of it being a real problem rather than just a hypothetical concern.

I should also note that I'm sure part of the reason why water stones work so much better for me than oil stones is because I am a much better woodworker now than I was when I last used oil stones...

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I bought a stone in a car boot sale today. I think, from the colour (rather like the old fashioned type of pencil eraser; translucent pale greenish grey, with a faint yellowish patch in the middle) and the weight, that it is what the website that Bob gives, above, calls a Translucent Arkansas stone and my 1934 copy of "Planecraft" (published by C.J. Hampton, Ltd, Sheffield, England - a firm which I strongly suspect was intimately connected with Record Tools, since it manages to spend 126 pages on cast iron planes without once using the word "Stanley"!) recommends very highly.

Since it is 6" x 2" x 1", I reckon I have saved myself US$90 plus shipping and taxes, but there is one slight flaw in the ointment - the centre section is glazed. It is not dirty or discolored, it just feels smoother than the rest of the stone (which seems dead flat) and it does not seem to work so well as the rest of the stone.

I would normally deal with this in a fairly brutal way but this stone is a thing of beauty and rarity and I don't want to wreck it.

What do I do?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I bought a stone in a car boot sale today. I think, from the colour (rather like the old fashioned type of pencil eraser; translucent pale greenish grey, with a faint yellowish patch in the middle) and the weight, that it is what the website that Bob gives, above, calls a Translucent Arkansas stone and my 1934 copy of "Planecraft" (published by C.J. Hampton, Ltd, Sheffield, England - a firm which I strongly suspect was intimately connected with Record Tools, since it manages to spend 126 pages on cast iron planes without once using the word "Stanley"!) recommends very highly.

Since it is 6" x 2" x 1", I reckon I have saved myself US$90 plus shipping and taxes, but there is one slight flaw in the ointment - the centre section is glazed. It is not dirty or discolored, it just feels smoother than the rest of the stone (which seems dead flat) and it does not seem to work so well as the rest of the stone.

I would normally deal with this in a fairly brutal way but this stone is a thing of beauty and rarity and I don't want to wreck it.

What do I do?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I bought a stone in a car boot sale today. I think, from the colour (rather like the old fashioned type of pencil eraser; translucent pale greenish grey, with a faint yellowish patch in the middle) and the weight, that it is what the website that Bob gives, above, calls a Translucent Arkansas stone and my 1934 copy of "Planecraft" (published by C.J. Hampton, Ltd, Sheffield, England - a firm which I strongly suspect was intimately connected with Record Tools, since it manages to spend 126 pages on cast iron planes without once using the word "Stanley"!) recommends very highly.

Since it is 6" x 2" x 1", I reckon I have saved myself US$90 plus shipping and taxes, but there is one slight flaw in the ointment - the centre section is glazed. It is not dirty or discolored, it just feels smoother than the rest of the stone (which seems dead flat) and it does not seem to work so well as the rest of the stone.

I would normally deal with this in a fairly brutal way but this stone is a thing of beauty and rarity and I don't want to wreck it.

What do I do?

[Bob Smalser]

I'm about as small-time as you can get in the rag writing game, Bruce....and I've already had two manufacturers send me free stuff (nothing I'm interested in, unfortunately) with the hopes I'll say something nice about them...which is human nature to do.

No doubt in my mind that waterstones are fast and do a great job....my comment was that if you are wearing hollows in them every 6 months like I certainly would, then natural oil stones merely remove one other PIA in your life. I suspect the difference 'tween FWW's prize-winning edge and one of mine is minute, as both likely shave hair painlessly and last as long as the steel and bevel angle allow.

I'm not selling stones or criticizing either you or Ms Fraser, Bruce....tis the trendiness that I'm commenting on...

...until the great craft revival of the '60's, tradesmen used sand stone pedal wheels, composite bench stones and upgraded to natural bench stones when they eventually could afford them...they were very expensive...

...then somebody "discovered" that the Japanese used water stones on their fine blades...there's no novaculite in Japan....the stone manufacturers and importers cackled with glee and everybody switched....

...much later, somebody "discovered" that impoverished tradesmen going back to the 1930's used sandpaper on glass to sharpen....3M cackled with glee....and many switched.

Now it's expensive diamond paste and indexing plates....because the newer A2 steel prestige tools are harder to sharpen, and waterstones and abrasive paper work fine but are a PIA to flatten or replace. Just wait til those spendy plates wear thru for the next iteration...

It's all kinda self-perpetuating, because the buyers of prestige hand tools or many of Norm's needless gizmos spent so much money that human nature is such that they try to convince others that everybody needs a 300-dollar, low-angle jack plane (the originals very rare because they were made to plane endgrain butcher blocks exclusively), or a 250-dollar A2 chisel set and diamond paste. Kinda a reverse form of buyer's remorse.

Consumerism at its finest.

Got a soft brass brush, Andrew? Soak that stone in paraffin (kerosene) for a few days and see if the glazing comes off with brushing. Could also be just the nature of the stone...the reason for the light oil lube is to prevent the stone's pores from clogging with metal dust, which makes the stone look dirty. If the stone doesn't appear to be dirty, then you glazing may just be some quartz mixed in with the novaculite, and you can ignore it.

[ 09-06-2004, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

I'm about as small-time as you can get in the rag writing game, Bruce....and I've already had two manufacturers send me free stuff (nothing I'm interested in, unfortunately) with the hopes I'll say something nice about them...which is human nature to do.

No doubt in my mind that waterstones are fast and do a great job....my comment was that if you are wearing hollows in them every 6 months like I certainly would, then natural oil stones merely remove one other PIA in your life. I suspect the difference 'tween FWW's prize-winning edge and one of mine is minute, as both likely shave hair painlessly and last as long as the steel and bevel angle allow.

I'm not selling stones or criticizing either you or Ms Fraser, Bruce....tis the trendiness that I'm commenting on...

...until the great craft revival of the '60's, tradesmen used sand stone pedal wheels, composite bench stones and upgraded to natural bench stones when they eventually could afford them...they were very expensive...

...then somebody "discovered" that the Japanese used water stones on their fine blades...there's no novaculite in Japan....the stone manufacturers and importers cackled with glee and everybody switched....

...much later, somebody "discovered" that impoverished tradesmen going back to the 1930's used sandpaper on glass to sharpen....3M cackled with glee....and many switched.

Now it's expensive diamond paste and indexing plates....because the newer A2 steel prestige tools are harder to sharpen, and waterstones and abrasive paper work fine but are a PIA to flatten or replace. Just wait til those spendy plates wear thru for the next iteration...

It's all kinda self-perpetuating, because the buyers of prestige hand tools or many of Norm's needless gizmos spent so much money that human nature is such that they try to convince others that everybody needs a 300-dollar, low-angle jack plane (the originals very rare because they were made to plane endgrain butcher blocks exclusively), or a 250-dollar A2 chisel set and diamond paste. Kinda a reverse form of buyer's remorse.

Consumerism at its finest.

Got a soft brass brush, Andrew? Soak that stone in paraffin (kerosene) for a few days and see if the glazing comes off with brushing. Could also be just the nature of the stone...the reason for the light oil lube is to prevent the stone's pores from clogging with metal dust, which makes the stone look dirty. If the stone doesn't appear to be dirty, then you glazing may just be some quartz mixed in with the novaculite, and you can ignore it.

[ 09-06-2004, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

I'm about as small-time as you can get in the rag writing game, Bruce....and I've already had two manufacturers send me free stuff (nothing I'm interested in, unfortunately) with the hopes I'll say something nice about them...which is human nature to do.

No doubt in my mind that waterstones are fast and do a great job....my comment was that if you are wearing hollows in them every 6 months like I certainly would, then natural oil stones merely remove one other PIA in your life. I suspect the difference 'tween FWW's prize-winning edge and one of mine is minute, as both likely shave hair painlessly and last as long as the steel and bevel angle allow.

I'm not selling stones or criticizing either you or Ms Fraser, Bruce....tis the trendiness that I'm commenting on...

...until the great craft revival of the '60's, tradesmen used sand stone pedal wheels, composite bench stones and upgraded to natural bench stones when they eventually could afford them...they were very expensive...

...then somebody "discovered" that the Japanese used water stones on their fine blades...there's no novaculite in Japan....the stone manufacturers and importers cackled with glee and everybody switched....

...much later, somebody "discovered" that impoverished tradesmen going back to the 1930's used sandpaper on glass to sharpen....3M cackled with glee....and many switched.

Now it's expensive diamond paste and indexing plates....because the newer A2 steel prestige tools are harder to sharpen, and waterstones and abrasive paper work fine but are a PIA to flatten or replace. Just wait til those spendy plates wear thru for the next iteration...

It's all kinda self-perpetuating, because the buyers of prestige hand tools or many of Norm's needless gizmos spent so much money that human nature is such that they try to convince others that everybody needs a 300-dollar, low-angle jack plane (the originals very rare because they were made to plane endgrain butcher blocks exclusively), or a 250-dollar A2 chisel set and diamond paste. Kinda a reverse form of buyer's remorse.

Consumerism at its finest.

Got a soft brass brush, Andrew? Soak that stone in paraffin (kerosene) for a few days and see if the glazing comes off with brushing. Could also be just the nature of the stone...the reason for the light oil lube is to prevent the stone's pores from clogging with metal dust, which makes the stone look dirty. If the stone doesn't appear to be dirty, then you glazing may just be some quartz mixed in with the novaculite, and you can ignore it.

[ 09-06-2004, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thanks, Bob. The stone had a few dirty marks when I got it, but they soon wiped off with a drop of light oil and a cotton cloth. I'll stop fretting about it.

It is a lovely thing, though. Now I understand why old King Raedwald of the East Angles, buried in his ship at Sutton Hoo, on the headland across the river, had a whetstone incorporated in his sceptre!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thanks, Bob. The stone had a few dirty marks when I got it, but they soon wiped off with a drop of light oil and a cotton cloth. I'll stop fretting about it.

It is a lovely thing, though. Now I understand why old King Raedwald of the East Angles, buried in his ship at Sutton Hoo, on the headland across the river, had a whetstone incorporated in his sceptre!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thanks, Bob. The stone had a few dirty marks when I got it, but they soon wiped off with a drop of light oil and a cotton cloth. I'll stop fretting about it.

It is a lovely thing, though. Now I understand why old King Raedwald of the East Angles, buried in his ship at Sutton Hoo, on the headland across the river, had a whetstone incorporated in his sceptre!

[Bob Smalser]

Yeah, I know, Andrew...

...I like old stuff, too.

I really shouldn't make my case so publically...the more folks who get sold a bill of goods that the new prestige stuff is so much better mean lower prices for the antiques.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4959362/65800111.jpg

More spar planes borrowing one of Dave Fleming's techniques.

My going price for good-condition smoother candidates is 4 bucks....but I splurged to...oh m'gosh...10 bucks...for this shipwright-made razee.

[ 09-06-2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

Yeah, I know, Andrew...

...I like old stuff, too.

I really shouldn't make my case so publically...the more folks who get sold a bill of goods that the new prestige stuff is so much better mean lower prices for the antiques.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4959362/65800111.jpg

More spar planes borrowing one of Dave Fleming's techniques.

My going price for good-condition smoother candidates is 4 bucks....but I splurged to...oh m'gosh...10 bucks...for this shipwright-made razee.

[ 09-06-2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

Yeah, I know, Andrew...

...I like old stuff, too.

I really shouldn't make my case so publically...the more folks who get sold a bill of goods that the new prestige stuff is so much better mean lower prices for the antiques.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4959362/65800111.jpg

More spar planes borrowing one of Dave Fleming's techniques.

My going price for good-condition smoother candidates is 4 bucks....but I splurged to...oh m'gosh...10 bucks...for this shipwright-made razee.

[ 09-06-2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Dave Fleming]

I waz gonna say, Robert you been making Razee Planes outta common uptown stuff?

I'm bettin' that Shipwright modified one of his apprentice planes to fit that pattern.
Good job of it too, or so says I.

[Dave Fleming]

I waz gonna say, Robert you been making Razee Planes outta common uptown stuff?

I'm bettin' that Shipwright modified one of his apprentice planes to fit that pattern.
Good job of it too, or so says I.

[Dave Fleming]

I waz gonna say, Robert you been making Razee Planes outta common uptown stuff?

I'm bettin' that Shipwright modified one of his apprentice planes to fit that pattern.
Good job of it too, or so says I.

[BrianY]

I use my diamond stones myself because I already had them before I got my waterstones, but I know a guy who flattens his coarse and medium waterstones on the side of a standard concrete cinder block and I've read about others doing the same thing. It really works!

If that's too low tech for you, spend a bit more for a concrete paver. Same thing, different shape.

At the very least, you'll wear off the high points quickly so that the stone against stone method or wet/dry sandpare on a plate (marble tiles fromm Home Depot work good for the plate)go a lot faster with less effort.

I don't know if I'd do this to an 8000 grit stone, but for 800/1000/1500/2000 etc. it's great.

[ 09-07-2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: BrianY ]

[BrianY]

I use my diamond stones myself because I already had them before I got my waterstones, but I know a guy who flattens his coarse and medium waterstones on the side of a standard concrete cinder block and I've read about others doing the same thing. It really works!

If that's too low tech for you, spend a bit more for a concrete paver. Same thing, different shape.

At the very least, you'll wear off the high points quickly so that the stone against stone method or wet/dry sandpare on a plate (marble tiles fromm Home Depot work good for the plate)go a lot faster with less effort.

I don't know if I'd do this to an 8000 grit stone, but for 800/1000/1500/2000 etc. it's great.

[ 09-07-2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: BrianY ]

[BrianY]

I use my diamond stones myself because I already had them before I got my waterstones, but I know a guy who flattens his coarse and medium waterstones on the side of a standard concrete cinder block and I've read about others doing the same thing. It really works!

If that's too low tech for you, spend a bit more for a concrete paver. Same thing, different shape.

At the very least, you'll wear off the high points quickly so that the stone against stone method or wet/dry sandpare on a plate (marble tiles fromm Home Depot work good for the plate)go a lot faster with less effort.

I don't know if I'd do this to an 8000 grit stone, but for 800/1000/1500/2000 etc. it's great.

[ 09-07-2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: BrianY ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Ah, good, another vote for the paving slab approach! Also good for oilstones, but don't use the garden path as SWMBO probably won't appreciate a blackened, oily paving slab in mid-garden!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Ah, good, another vote for the paving slab approach! Also good for oilstones, but don't use the garden path as SWMBO probably won't appreciate a blackened, oily paving slab in mid-garden!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Ah, good, another vote for the paving slab approach! Also good for oilstones, but don't use the garden path as SWMBO probably won't appreciate a blackened, oily paving slab in mid-garden!

[John Meachen]

A well respected tradesman I know, who is now in his eighties advocated the use of grinding paste on glass.I would imagine that glass is usually flatter than paving slabs and paving slabs are usually flatter than worn oilstones. How perfect would you like your stone to be and how long are you willing to spend in pursuit of the ideal?

[John Meachen]

A well respected tradesman I know, who is now in his eighties advocated the use of grinding paste on glass.I would imagine that glass is usually flatter than paving slabs and paving slabs are usually flatter than worn oilstones. How perfect would you like your stone to be and how long are you willing to spend in pursuit of the ideal?

[John Meachen]

A well respected tradesman I know, who is now in his eighties advocated the use of grinding paste on glass.I would imagine that glass is usually flatter than paving slabs and paving slabs are usually flatter than worn oilstones. How perfect would you like your stone to be and how long are you willing to spend in pursuit of the ideal?

[TimH]

I have flattened stones on the sidewalk of the house I grew up in in Chicago when I was a teen. I saw Roy underhill do it on his show, so if its good enough for him, its good enough for me :D

[TimH]

I have flattened stones on the sidewalk of the house I grew up in in Chicago when I was a teen. I saw Roy underhill do it on his show, so if its good enough for him, its good enough for me :D

[TimH]

I have flattened stones on the sidewalk of the house I grew up in in Chicago when I was a teen. I saw Roy underhill do it on his show, so if its good enough for him, its good enough for me :D

[Dave Fleming]

Best Glass for the useage discussed here is 'float glass'.
Truly flat but hard to come by.

[Dave Fleming]

Best Glass for the useage discussed here is 'float glass'.
Truly flat but hard to come by.

[Dave Fleming]

Best Glass for the useage discussed here is 'float glass'.
Truly flat but hard to come by.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
Best Glass for the useage discussed here is 'float glass'.
Truly flat but hard to come by.I don't know if they can be trusted, but my local glass shop said that these days standard plate glass is every bit as flat as "float glass" and that float glass is really pretty much an outdated product. They did have a financial interest in this opinion because they sold plate glass but not float glass so you can make your own decision about how much you want to trust their opinion. Certainly, the piece of 3/8" plate glass I got from them seems very flat to me, but I have not done much to test that perception. I believe Garrett-Wade sells float glass...

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
Best Glass for the useage discussed here is 'float glass'.
Truly flat but hard to come by.I don't know if they can be trusted, but my local glass shop said that these days standard plate glass is every bit as flat as "float glass" and that float glass is really pretty much an outdated product. They did have a financial interest in this opinion because they sold plate glass but not float glass so you can make your own decision about how much you want to trust their opinion. Certainly, the piece of 3/8" plate glass I got from them seems very flat to me, but I have not done much to test that perception. I believe Garrett-Wade sells float glass...

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
Best Glass for the useage discussed here is 'float glass'.
Truly flat but hard to come by.I don't know if they can be trusted, but my local glass shop said that these days standard plate glass is every bit as flat as "float glass" and that float glass is really pretty much an outdated product. They did have a financial interest in this opinion because they sold plate glass but not float glass so you can make your own decision about how much you want to trust their opinion. Certainly, the piece of 3/8" plate glass I got from them seems very flat to me, but I have not done much to test that perception. I believe Garrett-Wade sells float glass...

[Dave Fleming]

Bruce, these days so much of what we are told is hype. You may very well be right about current plate glass being of a flatness to rival what float glass is/was supposed to be.

Another thought for you folks thinking of the Scary Sharp System...

The major mail order industrial supply houses ie: Travers, MSC run sales on Granite Surface Plates seemingly all the time.

They are I am sure imports but betch'a a nickle they are plenty flat for tool sharpening.

My Router Guru, Pat Warner, uses one to flat sand components of the jigs and fixtures he makes and sells. He checks the results with a Starrett Precision Square like this one.

http://catalog.starrett.com/catalog/images/objects/1400/1384.jpg

[Dave Fleming]

Bruce, these days so much of what we are told is hype. You may very well be right about current plate glass being of a flatness to rival what float glass is/was supposed to be.

Another thought for you folks thinking of the Scary Sharp System...

The major mail order industrial supply houses ie: Travers, MSC run sales on Granite Surface Plates seemingly all the time.

They are I am sure imports but betch'a a nickle they are plenty flat for tool sharpening.

My Router Guru, Pat Warner, uses one to flat sand components of the jigs and fixtures he makes and sells. He checks the results with a Starrett Precision Square like this one.

http://catalog.starrett.com/catalog/images/objects/1400/1384.jpg

[Dave Fleming]

Bruce, these days so much of what we are told is hype. You may very well be right about current plate glass being of a flatness to rival what float glass is/was supposed to be.

Another thought for you folks thinking of the Scary Sharp System...

The major mail order industrial supply houses ie: Travers, MSC run sales on Granite Surface Plates seemingly all the time.

They are I am sure imports but betch'a a nickle they are plenty flat for tool sharpening.

My Router Guru, Pat Warner, uses one to flat sand components of the jigs and fixtures he makes and sells. He checks the results with a Starrett Precision Square like this one.

http://catalog.starrett.com/catalog/images/objects/1400/1384.jpg

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Float glass:
One of those moments when I'm proud to be British:

Float glass:

December 2003

It is often said that British industry is not willing to take a chance on innovation and prefers to rely on old products. The 10th December marks the 50th anniversary of the filing of the British patent for float glass by Pilkington Brothers, an innovation that paid off handsomely.

There had traditionally been two methods of making glass. "Window glass" was made by forming a sheet by stretching molten glass, which was done by drawing it in a ribbon from the furnace. Distortions were likely to occur but it was a cheap product to make. "Plate glass" could be made in several ways, but all involved casting a plate of glass and grinding it flat. Because of markings by the rollers that flattened it polishing was then needed. This was expensive. It was used in applications where distortions could not be tolerated: car windows, mirrors, shop windows and so on.

Alastair Pilkington, who was in fact no relation, joined the firm of Pilkington Brothers in St Helens near Liverpool as a technical officer in 1947. Many in the industry had dreamt of combining the cheapness of window glass with the high quality of plate glass -- but how ? As often happens, the clue to a new process came from doing something unrelated to the problem. According to legend, one day in 1952 Pilkington was washing the dishes when a plate momentarily moved over the surface of the water. He wondered if he could use some such process to make glass. In fact he later told a fellow employee that he was simply daydreaming while doing the washing up. As he later said, "A large part of innovation is, in fact, becoming aware of what is desirable", which would germinate as a new idea. "I don‘t know why, but I have always wanted to invent something".

Seven years of effort by a team of engineers under Pilkington‘s direction, and £7 million of expenditure, was needed to perfect the process. That was an enormous amount in the 1950s, but the company‘s board with great courage backed the research effort as every month they agreed to fresh expenditure on the project. The result was molten glass emerging from the furnace to then float on top of a bath of molten tin. As the top of the tin was completely flat, the bottom of the glass as well as the top remained completely flat and smooth. The process was cheap as it required no further processing. By a stroke of luck, the original process was of the right thickness for more than half the existing market. Eventually it was found that different thicknesses could be achieved by varying the speed at which the glass emerged from the furnace.

As often happens, the patent was applied for while the problems were still being worked out, and was patented in six other countries. British patent 769692

British Patent 769692

explains in 21 pages how the process worked. In May 1957 a pilot plant was set up to make the new glass. Although the theory seemed right, for 14 months poor-quality glass, with bubbles in it, appeared. Then suddenly good-quality glass appeared and continued to be produced, though nobody could figure out why. It was decided to replace the worn-out equipment and to everyone‘s amazement the poor-quality glass appeared again. It was eventually realised that the accidental breaking of the spout from which the glass poured from the furnace, which had been noticed, has been the reason for the good glass. All that remained was to break it again so that the good-quality glass would flow again. In 1959 the company announced their achievement.

Pilkington could have decided to use the patents to keep the countries in which the process was protected to itself as export markets. Anticipating possible efforts to design around or to infringe the patent, they decided to license its use to manufacturers in those countries. A payment was made for each glass plant built plus a royalty on the amount made. A clever clause to encourage improvements was included in the licences. Any improvements made by a licencee could be sold to other licencees, but Pilkington would get its use for free. In return, any improvements made by Pilkington would be provided free of charge to the licencees. By the mid 1980s 35 companies in 29 countries were licensing the technology (which must have included "know how"), with the company earning some £30 million annually in royalties. Some 90% of the plate glass in the world is made using the same basic technology, and Pilkington continues to innovate in glass technology with ideas such as self-cleaning glass. Alastair Pilkington became Sir Alastair in 1970, and died in 1995.

http://www.ideas21.co.uk/318

Just to bring the story up to date, Pilkingtons have continued to do very well and have built a series of giant float glass factories in China where demand for float glass is phenomenal.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Float glass:
One of those moments when I'm proud to be British:

Float glass:

December 2003

It is often said that British industry is not willing to take a chance on innovation and prefers to rely on old products. The 10th December marks the 50th anniversary of the filing of the British patent for float glass by Pilkington Brothers, an innovation that paid off handsomely.

There had traditionally been two methods of making glass. "Window glass" was made by forming a sheet by stretching molten glass, which was done by drawing it in a ribbon from the furnace. Distortions were likely to occur but it was a cheap product to make. "Plate glass" could be made in several ways, but all involved casting a plate of glass and grinding it flat. Because of markings by the rollers that flattened it polishing was then needed. This was expensive. It was used in applications where distortions could not be tolerated: car windows, mirrors, shop windows and so on.

Alastair Pilkington, who was in fact no relation, joined the firm of Pilkington Brothers in St Helens near Liverpool as a technical officer in 1947. Many in the industry had dreamt of combining the cheapness of window glass with the high quality of plate glass -- but how ? As often happens, the clue to a new process came from doing something unrelated to the problem. According to legend, one day in 1952 Pilkington was washing the dishes when a plate momentarily moved over the surface of the water. He wondered if he could use some such process to make glass. In fact he later told a fellow employee that he was simply daydreaming while doing the washing up. As he later said, "A large part of innovation is, in fact, becoming aware of what is desirable", which would germinate as a new idea. "I don‘t know why, but I have always wanted to invent something".

Seven years of effort by a team of engineers under Pilkington‘s direction, and £7 million of expenditure, was needed to perfect the process. That was an enormous amount in the 1950s, but the company‘s board with great courage backed the research effort as every month they agreed to fresh expenditure on the project. The result was molten glass emerging from the furnace to then float on top of a bath of molten tin. As the top of the tin was completely flat, the bottom of the glass as well as the top remained completely flat and smooth. The process was cheap as it required no further processing. By a stroke of luck, the original process was of the right thickness for more than half the existing market. Eventually it was found that different thicknesses could be achieved by varying the speed at which the glass emerged from the furnace.

As often happens, the patent was applied for while the problems were still being worked out, and was patented in six other countries. British patent 769692

British Patent 769692

explains in 21 pages how the process worked. In May 1957 a pilot plant was set up to make the new glass. Although the theory seemed right, for 14 months poor-quality glass, with bubbles in it, appeared. Then suddenly good-quality glass appeared and continued to be produced, though nobody could figure out why. It was decided to replace the worn-out equipment and to everyone‘s amazement the poor-quality glass appeared again. It was eventually realised that the accidental breaking of the spout from which the glass poured from the furnace, which had been noticed, has been the reason for the good glass. All that remained was to break it again so that the good-quality glass would flow again. In 1959 the company announced their achievement.

Pilkington could have decided to use the patents to keep the countries in which the process was protected to itself as export markets. Anticipating possible efforts to design around or to infringe the patent, they decided to license its use to manufacturers in those countries. A payment was made for each glass plant built plus a royalty on the amount made. A clever clause to encourage improvements was included in the licences. Any improvements made by a licencee could be sold to other licencees, but Pilkington would get its use for free. In return, any improvements made by Pilkington would be provided free of charge to the licencees. By the mid 1980s 35 companies in 29 countries were licensing the technology (which must have included "know how"), with the company earning some £30 million annually in royalties. Some 90% of the plate glass in the world is made using the same basic technology, and Pilkington continues to innovate in glass technology with ideas such as self-cleaning glass. Alastair Pilkington became Sir Alastair in 1970, and died in 1995.

http://www.ideas21.co.uk/318

Just to bring the story up to date, Pilkingtons have continued to do very well and have built a series of giant float glass factories in China where demand for float glass is phenomenal.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Float glass:
One of those moments when I'm proud to be British:

Float glass:

December 2003

It is often said that British industry is not willing to take a chance on innovation and prefers to rely on old products. The 10th December marks the 50th anniversary of the filing of the British patent for float glass by Pilkington Brothers, an innovation that paid off handsomely.

There had traditionally been two methods of making glass. "Window glass" was made by forming a sheet by stretching molten glass, which was done by drawing it in a ribbon from the furnace. Distortions were likely to occur but it was a cheap product to make. "Plate glass" could be made in several ways, but all involved casting a plate of glass and grinding it flat. Because of markings by the rollers that flattened it polishing was then needed. This was expensive. It was used in applications where distortions could not be tolerated: car windows, mirrors, shop windows and so on.

Alastair Pilkington, who was in fact no relation, joined the firm of Pilkington Brothers in St Helens near Liverpool as a technical officer in 1947. Many in the industry had dreamt of combining the cheapness of window glass with the high quality of plate glass -- but how ? As often happens, the clue to a new process came from doing something unrelated to the problem. According to legend, one day in 1952 Pilkington was washing the dishes when a plate momentarily moved over the surface of the water. He wondered if he could use some such process to make glass. In fact he later told a fellow employee that he was simply daydreaming while doing the washing up. As he later said, "A large part of innovation is, in fact, becoming aware of what is desirable", which would germinate as a new idea. "I don‘t know why, but I have always wanted to invent something".

Seven years of effort by a team of engineers under Pilkington‘s direction, and £7 million of expenditure, was needed to perfect the process. That was an enormous amount in the 1950s, but the company‘s board with great courage backed the research effort as every month they agreed to fresh expenditure on the project. The result was molten glass emerging from the furnace to then float on top of a bath of molten tin. As the top of the tin was completely flat, the bottom of the glass as well as the top remained completely flat and smooth. The process was cheap as it required no further processing. By a stroke of luck, the original process was of the right thickness for more than half the existing market. Eventually it was found that different thicknesses could be achieved by varying the speed at which the glass emerged from the furnace.

As often happens, the patent was applied for while the problems were still being worked out, and was patented in six other countries. British patent 769692

British Patent 769692

explains in 21 pages how the process worked. In May 1957 a pilot plant was set up to make the new glass. Although the theory seemed right, for 14 months poor-quality glass, with bubbles in it, appeared. Then suddenly good-quality glass appeared and continued to be produced, though nobody could figure out why. It was decided to replace the worn-out equipment and to everyone‘s amazement the poor-quality glass appeared again. It was eventually realised that the accidental breaking of the spout from which the glass poured from the furnace, which had been noticed, has been the reason for the good glass. All that remained was to break it again so that the good-quality glass would flow again. In 1959 the company announced their achievement.

Pilkington could have decided to use the patents to keep the countries in which the process was protected to itself as export markets. Anticipating possible efforts to design around or to infringe the patent, they decided to license its use to manufacturers in those countries. A payment was made for each glass plant built plus a royalty on the amount made. A clever clause to encourage improvements was included in the licences. Any improvements made by a licencee could be sold to other licencees, but Pilkington would get its use for free. In return, any improvements made by Pilkington would be provided free of charge to the licencees. By the mid 1980s 35 companies in 29 countries were licensing the technology (which must have included "know how"), with the company earning some £30 million annually in royalties. Some 90% of the plate glass in the world is made using the same basic technology, and Pilkington continues to innovate in glass technology with ideas such as self-cleaning glass. Alastair Pilkington became Sir Alastair in 1970, and died in 1995.

http://www.ideas21.co.uk/318

Just to bring the story up to date, Pilkingtons have continued to do very well and have built a series of giant float glass factories in China where demand for float glass is phenomenal.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

What I really, really like about the Pilkington story is the innovation clauses in the licences. Very far sighted - a rare case of a "win -win" contract in business.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

What I really, really like about the Pilkington story is the innovation clauses in the licences. Very far sighted - a rare case of a "win -win" contract in business.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

What I really, really like about the Pilkington story is the innovation clauses in the licences. Very far sighted - a rare case of a "win -win" contract in business.

[John Hastie]

Just a suggestion -

A good way to clean your oilstone when you have rinsed it with mineral spirits is to wipe it with a sandpaper cleaning block.

The gum rubber cleans it up fast.

John

[John Hastie]

Just a suggestion -

A good way to clean your oilstone when you have rinsed it with mineral spirits is to wipe it with a sandpaper cleaning block.

The gum rubber cleans it up fast.

John

[John Hastie]

Just a suggestion -

A good way to clean your oilstone when you have rinsed it with mineral spirits is to wipe it with a sandpaper cleaning block.

The gum rubber cleans it up fast.

John