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genglandoh
07-13-2014, 11:22 AM
The Jewish religion was the first religion in the area that believed in a single God.
This made it unique and I can see how some would convert.

The Christian Religion was the first religion in the area that taught to forgive others.
This made it unique and I can see how some would convert.

What is different about Islam that makes it unique and would make people want to convert?

Paul Pless
07-13-2014, 11:26 AM
The Jewish religion was the first religion in the area that believed in a single God. This made it unique. . .

Dude, where'd you learn this?

Shang
07-13-2014, 11:36 AM
...The Christian Religion was the first religion in the area that taught to forgive others...

Dude, where'd you learn that?

CWSmith
07-13-2014, 11:38 AM
Islam is a noble religion. It teaches tolerance and respect. Sadly, like too many religions, it has been perverted in some areas by people seeking power. The poor and oppressed are fish in a barrel for those who preach revenge and domination.

It isn't Islam that is to blame. It's the militant factions who wield it as a weapon.

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 11:43 AM
Islam is a noble religion. It teaches tolerance and respect. Sadly, like too many religions, it has been perverted in some areas by people seeking power. The poor and oppressed are fish in a barrel for those who preach revenge and domination.

It isn't Islam that is to blame. It's the militant factions who wield it as a weapon.



Islam is a noble religion. :rolleyes:


Since it has apparently been so perverted, perhaps the best thing is to eliminate it?

dskira
07-13-2014, 11:44 AM
The Jewish religion was the first religion in the area that believed in a single God.


Nope, it was Zoroastrianism
And you general question is not factual.

mikefrommontana
07-13-2014, 11:44 AM
Show me a religion that has not been perverted.

Canoeyawl
07-13-2014, 12:12 PM
Ignorance, as with most religions.

Why does the sun come up in the morning?

isla
07-13-2014, 12:19 PM
:rolleyes:


Since it has apparently been so perverted, perhaps the best thing is to eliminate it?Yeah, you and who's army?

isla
07-13-2014, 12:21 PM
:rolleyes:


Since it has apparently been so perverted, perhaps the best thing is to eliminate it?Question...do you think that the right-wing fundamentalist Christians represent all Christians?

Osborne Russell
07-13-2014, 12:24 PM
:rolleyes:


Since it has apparently been so perverted, perhaps the best thing is to eliminate it?


Ok, soon as we get out of church .

Jim Mahan
07-13-2014, 12:26 PM
Maybe because most of the adherents are born in a region where Islam has been the dominant religion for centuries.

The same way a lot of U.S. citizens identify with some denomination of Christianity without being religious or going to church.

Converts probably become attracted for several usual reasons, like marrying into it, or moving to where it is prevalent, or even reading the pertinent scriptures or studying comparative religion in school, or a deep dissatisfaction with what they are otherwise familiar with, the religion they grew up with.

These days, due to recent history of the West interfering politically and militarily, there probably are a significant number of new adherents making a political based stand against the evil usurper/destroyer. What better language to denounce the hegemony than, in terms of coalescing popular support, than scripture from one of the dominant religiosn in the region?

It's been too long for me to recall what actual doctrines or dogma Islam depends on to supercede or migrate from Judeo-Christian concepts from the old and new testaments. I've never read the Koran. Don't personally know any Muslems, haven't had the discussions.

Bob Adams
07-13-2014, 12:26 PM
Islam is a noble religion. It teaches tolerance and respect. Sadly, like too many religions, it has been perverted in some areas by people seeking power. The poor and oppressed are fish in a barrel for those who preach revenge and domination.

It isn't Islam that is to blame. It's the militant factions who wield it as a weapon.

Well put. I agree 100%

LeeG
07-13-2014, 12:30 PM
Genga, here's a fun book.

http://www.amazon.com/Search-Zarathustra-Across-Central-Prophet/dp/1400031427/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405272486&sr=1-6&keywords=zoroaster

Book Description
Release date: March 9, 2004
Long before the first Hebrew temple, before the birth of Christ or the mission of Muhammad, there lived in Persia a prophet to whom we owe the ideas of a single god, the cosmic struggle between good and evil, and the Apocalypse. His name was Zarathustra, and his teachings eventually held sway from the Indus to the Nile and spread as far as Britain.

LeeG
07-13-2014, 12:34 PM
:rolleyes:


Since it has apparently been so perverted, perhaps the best thing is to eliminate it?


Why do you want to eliminate Christianity?

Lew Barrett
07-13-2014, 12:47 PM
The Jewish religion was the first religion in the area that believed in a single God.
This made it unique and I can see how some would convert.



Dude, nobody converts to Judaism, well, maybe Sammy Davis Jr. did. That's about the complete list that comes to mind at the moment.

Jim Mahan
07-13-2014, 12:48 PM
How could any sane individual think that Islam, or any other religion could be 'eliminated'?

Maybe ex-president Bush/Cheney et al could do it, except they don't qualify. Maybe we could just go over there and shock and awe every Muslem who won't convert to Democracy. Heh heh. Won't cost any more'n several trillion dollars. Oh wait, that would actually make more Muslim terrrists. Smell the ol?

wardd
07-13-2014, 12:49 PM
Why do you want to eliminate Christianity?

because it has been responsible for more death than any other religion

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 01:04 PM
Islam is a noble religion. It teaches tolerance and respect.

Does your statement of tolerance and respect include women?

What about tolerance for persons that wish to 'transfer' to another religion?

Can women walk in and worship in mosques beside their husbands?

'Honour' killings?

How many witnesses to prove rape?

Stonings to death for marrying somebody for another faith?

Jihad(sp) etc other religions and non- people?

A noble religion, tolerance, respect?

Gimmie a break, the list goes on and on.

Nothing I have read would induce me to adopt that religion or lifestyle.

Keith Wilson
07-13-2014, 01:13 PM
Myself, I don't understand why anyone would be attracted to any the more conservative versions of Middle Eastern monotheism, particularly Islam. However RP, if you're really interested in that question, you need to lean more of Islam than you read in the papers. A little study of history, theology and the Koran might give you some information on which to judge.

OTOH,if you're just looking for an opportunity to criticize some of the worst varieties of present-day Islam (and God knows there's no shortage of easy targets), then go to it.

wardd
07-13-2014, 01:14 PM
Does your statement of tolerance and respect include women?

What about tolerance for persons that wish to 'transfer' to another religion?

Can women walk in and worship in mosques beside their husbands?

'Honour' killings?

How many witnesses to prove rape?

Stonings to death for marrying somebody for another faith?

Jihad(sp) etc other religions and non- people?

A noble religion, tolerance, respect?

Gimmie a break, the list goes on and on.

Nothing I have read would induce me to adopt that religion or lifestyle.

want to rethink the points you made?

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 01:33 PM
want to rethink the points you made? No.

Syed
07-13-2014, 01:37 PM
Does your statement of tolerance and respect include women?

What about tolerance for persons that wish to 'transfer' to another religion?

Can women walk in and worship in mosques beside their husbands?

'Honour' killings?

How many witnesses to prove rape?

Stonings to death for marrying somebody for another faith?

Jihad(sp) etc other religions and non- people?

A noble religion, tolerance, respect?

Gimmie a break, the list goes on and on.

Nothing I have read would induce me to adopt that religion or lifestyle.

I think you need to look into a mirror before talking of tolerance.






Since it has apparently been so perverted, perhaps the best thing is to eliminate it?

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 01:39 PM
Myself, I don't understand why anyone would be attracted to any the more conservative versions of Middle Eastern monotheism, particularly Islam. However RP, if you're really interested in that question, you need to lean more of Islam than you read in the papers. A little study of history, theology and the Koran might give you some information on which to judge.

OTOH,if you're just looking for an opportunity to criticize some of the worst varieties of present-day Islam (and God knows there's no shortage of easy targets), then go to it.

When the so called 'vast' majority of Islam/muslims start coming out and condemning the 'tiny' minority few terrorist fanatics and their instigators/inciters etc, then I may have a rethink.

The few bad apples have spoilt the whole barrel. Not my doing but theirs.

Silence gives consent.

Glen Longino
07-13-2014, 01:40 PM
I think you need to look into a mirror before talking of tolerance.

Thank you, Syed!

wardd
07-13-2014, 01:41 PM
No.

you really should

Peerie Maa
07-13-2014, 01:45 PM
Silence gives consent.

That suggests that 90% or more Americans think that killing people with guns is a good thing, or that a similar percentage of Catholics think that child abuse is good.

I call cow-chips.

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 01:45 PM
I think you need to look into a mirror before talking of tolerance.

Many on here do not recognise 'humour' or 'hyperbole' if it reared up and whacked them in the face. Sad but true.


So are we going along the SOP and deflect or are we going to discuss:

Does your statement of tolerance and respect include women?

What about tolerance for persons that wish to 'transfer' to another religion?

Can women walk in and worship in mosques beside their husbands?

'Honour' killings?

How many witnesses to prove rape?

Stonings to death for marrying somebody for another faith?

Jihad(sp) etc other religions and non- people?


Are these attributes of a noble religion that purports to have tolerance and respect? YES/NO ?

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 01:46 PM
you really should

Why?

Peerie Maa
07-13-2014, 01:49 PM
Many on here do not recognise 'humour' or 'hyperbole' if it reared up and whacked them in the face. Sad but true.


So are we going along the SOP and deflect or are we going to discuss:

Does your statement of tolerance and respect include women?

What about tolerance for persons that wish to 'transfer' to another religion?

Can women walk in and worship in mosques beside their husbands?

'Honour' killings?

How many witnesses to prove rape?

Stonings to death for marrying somebody for another faith?

Jihad(sp) etc other religions and non- people?


Are these attributes of a noble religion that purports to have tolerance and respect? YES/NO ?

Rummy that post was as funny as a smack in the face, you are coming across as dishonest, or ashamed of your post but not man enough to apologise.

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 01:56 PM
Rummy that post was as funny as a smack in the face, you are coming across as dishonest, or ashamed of your post but not man enough to apologise.


I refer you Post #19. Apologise for what? Because I asked those questions?

I noe that nobody has answered them. Why? Well probably it would demonstrate that is is not tolerant and respectful.


I repeat my position. Nothing would induce me to adopt that religion or lifestyle.

'Tolerance and respect' what a hypocritical statement.

LeeG
07-13-2014, 02:06 PM
When the so called 'vast' majority of Islam/muslims start coming out and condemning the 'tiny' minority few terrorist fanatics and their instigators/inciters etc, then I may have a rethink.

The few bad apples have spoilt the whole barrel. Not my doing but theirs.

Silence gives consent.

So where do you find expressions from the vast majority of Muslims ?

Peerie Maa
07-13-2014, 02:06 PM
I refer you Post #19. Apologise for what? Because I asked those questions?

I noe that nobody has answered them. Why? Well probably it would demonstrate that is is not tolerant and respectful.


I repeat my position. Nothing would induce me to adopt that religion or lifestyle.

'Tolerance and respect' what a hypocritical statement.

No, apologise because you claimed a provocative post was an attempt at humour. Cow-chips, I'm calling you on that.

Many on here do not recognise 'humour' or 'hyperbole' if it reared up and whacked them in the face. Sad but true.

Hugh Conway
07-13-2014, 02:11 PM
So where do you find expressions from the vast majority of Muslims ?

Two doors down from "stuff white people think"

Horace
07-13-2014, 02:15 PM
Many on here do not recognise 'humour' or 'hyperbole' if it reared up and whacked them in the face. Sad but true.
No, apologise because you claimed a provocative post was an attempt at humour. Cow-chips, I'm calling you on that.Actually, RP offered two examples.

You picked the wrong one.

Peerie Maa
07-13-2014, 02:17 PM
Actually, RP offered two examples.

You picked the wrong one.

Then why did he not point that out in post #31? Plenty of opportunity to put the record straight.

CWSmith
07-13-2014, 02:19 PM
Since it has apparently been so perverted, perhaps the best thing is to eliminate it?

I'm afraid to ask how you would do that and I think I know why. Either way, I think you have marginalized yourself with your opinion.

Now that I've read through the rest of the thread, it seems you have attracted lots of attention. I won't defend Islam's treatment of women and such, but I will say that any of the world's great religions have core belief and what humans have piled onto it. My Islamic friends certainly don't follow many of the demands you mention and I think that if the West engages Islam properly it will eventually change on some of these things. Religions change slowly, for better or worse, and often evolve in relative isolation. I think that constructive engagement is a better approach than threatening to do away with it.

Horace
07-13-2014, 02:22 PM
Then why did he not point that out in post #31? Plenty of opportunity to put the record straight.Beats me. Maybe he thought it was obvious.

Do you care to take on the questions restated in #28?


I'm afraid to ask how you would do that and I think I know why. Either way, I think you have marginalized yourself with your opinion.Or perhaps you?




.

Peerie Maa
07-13-2014, 02:30 PM
Beats me. Maybe he thought it was obvious.

Do you care to take on the questions restated in #31?

Or perhaps you?

Nope, I'll not pander to him.

I will say that a lot of what Rummy refers to is a feature not of any one faith, but of societies that have not yet educated themselves out of the Dark Ages.

CWSmith
07-13-2014, 02:31 PM
Or perhaps you?.

Well, in some hateful circles I'm sure I have [marginalized myself]. Tolerance, understanding and engagement may not be the popular approach, but it is seldom, if ever, the wrong approach.

Horace
07-13-2014, 02:50 PM
Well, in some hateful circles I'm sure I have [marginalized myself].Which ones, and how so?


Tolerance, understanding and engagement may not be the popular approach, but it is seldom, if ever, the wrong approach.I agree.

Do you see those qualities to be predominant in current Mohammedan societies?

Lew Barrett
07-13-2014, 02:50 PM
When the so called 'vast' majority of Islam/muslims start coming out and condemning the 'tiny' minority few terrorist fanatics and their instigators/inciters etc, then I may have a rethink.

The few bad apples have spoilt the whole barrel. Not my doing but theirs.

Silence gives consent.
Many on here do not recognise 'humour' or 'hyperbole' if it reared up and whacked them in the face. Sad but true.


You have to first be funny.

Moreover, I think you may not be listening in the right circles. Watched Al Jazeera lately?

L.W. Baxter
07-13-2014, 02:56 PM
Maybe Rummy is expecting a personal phone call from The Muslims in which they apologize for the behavior of The Other Muslims.

Horace
07-13-2014, 03:00 PM
...... I think you may not be listening in the right circles. Watched Al Jazeera lately?Not addressed to me, but I'll respond: No, but apparently you've seen something you consider pertinent.

Please expound.

genglandoh
07-13-2014, 03:04 PM
The Jewish religion was the first religion in the area that believed in a single God.
This made it unique and I can see how some would convert.

The Christian Religion was the first religion in the area that taught to forgive others.
This made it unique and I can see how some would convert.

What is different about Islam that makes it unique and would make people want to convert?

I started to think about my own question and to do a little reading on the web.
It seems that the idea of predestination might be the big unique belief that would draw some people to convert to Islam.
The idea that your life has been predetermined my god and there for you do not have to take responsibility for your actions.



Belief in al-Qadar (divine destiny) is based on four things.
1– العلم Al-'Alam – Knowledge: i.e., that Allah knows what His creation will do, by virtue of His eternal knowledge, including their choices that will take place.
2– كتابة Kitabat – Writing: i.e., that Allah has written every thing that exists including the destiny of all creatures in al-Lauh al-Mahfuz prior to creation.
3– مشيئة Mashii'at – Will: i.e., that what Allah wills happens and what He does not will does not happen. There is no movement in the heavens or on earth but happens by His will. This does not mean that He forces things to happen the way they happen in the area of human beings' voluntary actions. It means that He knew what they will chose, wrote it and now lets it happen,
4– الخلق Al-Khalaq – Creation and formation: i.e., that Allah is the Creator of all things, including the actions of His servants. They do their actions in a real sense, and Allah is the Creator of them and of their actions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Islam

L.W. Baxter
07-13-2014, 03:06 PM
Not addressed to me, but I'll respond: No, but apparently you've seen something you consider pertinent.

Please expound.

Not addressed to me but I'll respond: The suggestion is that the majority of the Muslim world is silent about and therefore complicit with terrorism and other perversions of the faith; which suggestion is asinine, ignorant, and utterly oblivious to the larger world we live in.

Horace
07-13-2014, 03:31 PM
Not addressed to me but I'll respond: The suggestion is that the majority of the Muslim world is silent about and therefore complicit with terrorism and other perversions of the faith; which suggestion is asinine, ignorant, and utterly oblivious to the larger world we live in.Okay, you've stated the message implicit in Mr Barrett's post, and gone on to label the suggestion as "asinine, ignorant and utterly oblivious to the larger world."

Can you point to a substantial body of criticism from within the Moslem world on record against violent jihad and terrorism (i. e., representative of the majority, not simply protestations from Moslems living within Western societies)?

The crowds rejoicing in the streets in Moslem countries after 9/11, for example, seem to imply something else.

slug
07-13-2014, 03:46 PM
Okay, you've stated the message implicit in Mr Barrett's post, and gone on to label the suggestion as "asinine, ignorant and utterly oblivious to the larger world."

Can you point to a substantial body of criticism from within the Moslem world on record against violent jihad and terrorism (i. e., representative of the majority, not simply protestations from Moslems living within Western societies)?

The crowds rejoicing in the streets in Moslem countries after 9/11, for example, seem to imply something else.

gee...i was in a cafe in Greece on 9 11 and the crowd rejoiced. Nothing to do with religion.

indonesia is the largest muslim nation , thier civil society functions well and they have very little radicalism .

You cant blame religion.

wardd
07-13-2014, 03:50 PM
Okay, you've stated the message implicit in Mr Barrett's post, and gone on to label the suggestion as "asinine, ignorant and utterly oblivious to the larger world."

Can you point to a substantial body of criticism from within the Moslem world on record against violent jihad and terrorism (i. e., representative of the majority, not simply protestations from Moslems living within Western societies)?

The crowds rejoicing in the streets in Moslem countries after 9/11, for example, seem to imply something else.

you mean like this?

https://ww2resource.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/nazi_rally.jpg

CWSmith
07-13-2014, 04:09 PM
Do you see those qualities to be predominant in current Mohammedan societies?

Yes, in many. We are focused on the worst. Does Israel put forth a good example for Judaism? Are fundamentalist Christians good ambassadors for Christianity?

I believe that Turkey is a good example of a secular society where most people are Islamic and by all accounts that I have heard they are a model for what a "western" Islamic nation can be.

isla
07-13-2014, 05:06 PM
Does your statement of tolerance and respect include women?

What about tolerance for persons that wish to 'transfer' to another religion?

Can women walk in and worship in mosques beside their husbands?

'Honour' killings?

How many witnesses to prove rape?

Stonings to death for marrying somebody for another faith?

Jihad(sp) etc other religions and non- people?

A noble religion, tolerance, respect?




want to rethink the points you made?


No.

I would like to point out that honour killings are not unique to Islam. They are carried out by Hindus, Sikhs and (wait for it) Christians. So should we try to eliminate those religions?
China has a very poor record on human rights. Should we eliminate all Chinese?
With respect to the treatment of women, the Western world is a little bit ahead of some less well developed nations, but let's remember that woman were given the vote in the USA less than 100 years ago. Until very recently women in Western democracies were disadvantaged in many respects.
As for Jihad, again this is not unique to Islam. Consider the Christian crusades, or the almost evangelical war on communism.

Peerie Maa
07-13-2014, 05:10 PM
Silence gives consent.


That suggests that 90% or more Americans think that killing people with guns is a good thing, or that a similar percentage of Catholics think that child abuse is good.



Okay, you've stated the message implicit in Mr Barrett's post, and gone on to label the suggestion as "asinine, ignorant and utterly oblivious to the larger world."


The crowds rejoicing in the streets in Moslem countries after 9/11, for example, seem to imply something else.

It was wrong when Rummy posted it and it is still wrong.


Can you point to a substantial body of criticism from within the Moslem world on record against violent jihad and terrorism (i. e., representative of the majority, not simply protestations from Moslems living within Western societies)?

Here you go: http://islam.uga.edu/nineeleven.html
There will be more out there, why not you have a look?
P.S.
I doubt whether the majority of Muslims are able to post to the web, even if they had the time.

Horace
07-13-2014, 05:20 PM
Yes, in many. We are focused on the worst. Does Israel put forth a good example for Judaism? The State of Israel is in a struggle for existence with its neighbors. What sort of example would satisfy them? Or you?


Are fundamentalist Christians good ambassadors for Christianity?That depends on what you perceive to be "fundamentalist Christians," as well as what you consider the message of Christianity to be, and Christianity's relationship to the state--as opposed to the same questions applied to Mohammedan countries.


gee...i was in a cafe in Greece on 9 11 and the crowd rejoiced. Nothing to do with religion.Interesting. Got any references to support or elaborate on that statement?


indonesia is the largest muslim nation , thier civil society functions well and they have very little radicalism . ....

I believe that Turkey is a good example of a secular society where most people are Islamic and by all accounts that I have heard they are a model for what a "western" Islamic nation can be.Both of the claims above ignore recent events, especially in Turkey.

"Turkey...a model for what a 'western' Islamic nation can be."

Perhaps. But does it approach the Western ideal? And what are current trends there?

Paul Pless
07-13-2014, 05:32 PM
Dude, nobody converts to Judaism, well, maybe Sammy Davis Jr. did. That's about the complete list that comes to mind at the moment.bobbys converted

L.W. Baxter
07-13-2014, 05:33 PM
For the jokes!

isla
07-13-2014, 05:35 PM
"Turkey...a model for what a 'western' Islamic nation can be."

Perhaps. But does it approach the Western ideal? And what are current trends there?Why does it have to?

PeterSibley
07-13-2014, 05:37 PM
Yes, in many. We are focused on the worst. Does Israel put forth a good example for Judaism? Are fundamentalist Christians good ambassadors for Christianity?

I believe that Turkey is a good example of a secular society where most people are Islamic and by all accounts that I have heard they are a model for what a "western" Islamic nation can be.

Can we add the world's largest Islamic nation? Indonesia.

Good neighbours too.

CWSmith
07-13-2014, 05:39 PM
OK, Horace. Whatever axe you have to grind no longer interests me.

PeterSibley
07-13-2014, 05:40 PM
The Jewish religion was the first religion in the area that believed in a single God.
This made it unique and I can see how some would convert.

The Christian Religion was the first religion in the area that taught to forgive others.
This made it unique and I can see how some would convert.

What is different about Islam that makes it unique and would make people want to convert?

To answer the original question, a good friend married an Indonesian woman who is a Moslem and converted. He's not an overwhelmingly strict Muslim but certainly observant. Both he and his wife knocked back breakfast or even a cup of coffee the other morning . It's Ramadan.

So in this case .... love.

Tom Montgomery
07-13-2014, 05:50 PM
I would hazard a guess that relatively few Muslims are converts. Jut as relatively few Christians are converts.

Most people are raised from infants by their parents within a particular religious belief and tradition. And they tend to stick to that particular religious belief and tradition.

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 05:52 PM
I would like to point out that honour killings are not unique to Islam. They are carried out by Hindus, Sikhs and (wait for it) Christians. So should we try to eliminate those religions?
China has a very poor record on human rights. Should we eliminate all Chinese?
With respect to the treatment of women, the Western world is a little bit ahead of some less well developed nations, but let's remember that woman were given the vote in the USA less than 100 years ago. Until very recently women in Western democracies were disadvantaged in many respects.
As for Jihad, again this is not unique to Islam. Consider the Christian crusades, or the almost evangelical war on communism.
'

I would suggest that none of the above are acceptable.

Pray tell, am I to welcome them all with open arms? And say it is OK??

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 05:54 PM
I would hazard a guess that relatively few Muslims are converts. Jut as relatively few Christians are converts.

Most people are raised from infants by their parents within a particular religious belief and tradition. And they tend to stick to that particular religious belief and tradition.

So please advise in your view (i.e. do you agree) is it OK to kill people for converting from one faith to another? I don't.

CWSmith
07-13-2014, 05:54 PM
Long before the first Hebrew temple, before the birth of Christ or the mission of Muhammad, there lived in Persia a prophet to whom we owe the ideas of a single god, the cosmic struggle between good and evil, and the Apocalypse. His name was Zarathustra, and his teachings eventually held sway from the Indus to the Nile and spread as far as Britain.

Lee, your comment above was a response to the birth of monotheism. From what I can gather, this may or may not precede monotheism of Akhenaten. Do you agree, or did I miss something?

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 05:56 PM
It was wrong when Rummy posted it and it is still wrong. . .
Please quote what is it that I posted is wrong?

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 05:58 PM
Does your statement of tolerance and respect include women?

What about tolerance for persons that wish to 'transfer' to another religion?

Can women walk in and worship in mosques beside their husbands?

'Honour' killings?

How many witnesses to prove rape?

Stonings to death for marrying somebody for another faith?

Jihad(sp) etc other religions and non- people?

A noble religion, tolerance, respect?

Still no answer to the above questions as to whether they are tolerance, respect etc.

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 06:02 PM
How could any sane individual think that Islam, or any other religion could be 'eliminated'?

Maybe ex-president Bush/Cheney et al could do it, except they don't qualify. Maybe we could just go over there and shock and awe every Muslem who won't convert to Democracy. Heh heh. Won't cost any more'n several trillion dollars. Oh wait, that would actually make more Muslim terrrists. Smell the ol?

It was hyperbole.

The action you suggest would not provide tolerance and religion.

Keith Wilson
07-13-2014, 06:02 PM
Belief in al-Qadar (divine destiny) is based on four things . . . ..Predestination is by no means unique to Islam; numerous Christian theologians have said much the same thing. The quote sounds very much like John Calvin; identical in some respects. Do people become Presbyterians because 'therefore you do not have to take responsibility for your actions'?

Again, while there are plenty of easy targets, Islam is a large and diverse religion with over a billion adherents. Making a list of the worst things that are done by Muslims is simple, but that doesn't tell us much about the religion as a whole. I could do the same for Christianity easily, a nd it would tell us just as little.

PeterSibley
07-13-2014, 06:04 PM
Rummy, IMHO you are not referring to Islam but to cultural practises in the ME carried out by people who are also Moslem.

You will find that these practises are not followed in SE Asian Moslem countries .... so they are NOT specifically Islamic but rather Middle Eastern.

RodB
07-13-2014, 06:04 PM
This link has a very good historical view of Islam and what the situation is today...

RodB



http://www.catholic.com/documents/endless-jihad-the-truth-about-islam-and-violence

Endless Jihad: The Truth about Islam and Violence


Jihad.
It was once a word unfamiliar to American ears. But in recent years it has become all too familiar. The actions of Muslim militants and terrorists have seared the word into American consciousness.
Yet even with thousands of innocent civilians killed on American soil by Islamic terrorists, the full significance of the Muslim concept of jihad has not been g.asped by the American public.
In the days after September 11, 2001, American leaders rushed to portray Islam as a peaceful religion that had been "hijacked" by a fanatical band of terrorists. One hopes that these assurances were merely tactical—that nobody was meant to believe them and that they were meant to assure the Muslim world that the inevitable American reprisals were not directed at their religion as a whole.
If the world Muslim community perceived America as attacking Islam in general then the duty of every Muslim to fight for his religion—the duty of jihad—would have been invoked on a broad scale. The war against terrorism, instead of simmering with occasional flare-ups, like the Cold War, would have boiled over into a global conflagration, with the Muslim countries of the world—1.2 billion strong—mobilizing against America and the West.
Muslim apologists also rushed forward to assure the public that Islam was a peaceful religion. They disingenuously declared that the word Islam means "peace." And they tried to portray the terrorists as a fringe group outside the mainstream of Islam.
These were lies.
The usual meaning of Islam in Arabic is not "peace" but "submission." And if the terrorists were so far outside the mainstream, why did Muslims all over the world burst into joyful, spontaneous celebrations when the hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? Why are Islamic governments afraid to show "too much" public support for the war against terrorism? Further, why are all the governments that covertly support terrorism centered in the Muslim world?
The truth is that Islam is not a religion of peace. This is not to say that every Muslim is violent at heart. Many are not. Muslims have the same.aspirations for living peaceful lives that people have the world over. But they also have the same potential for violence as others, and Islam as a religion and an ideology seeks to exploit that potential.
Though there are millions of Muslims who want peaceful relations with the West, millions who.aspire to live in free societies like America, there nevertheless remains a deep and powerful strain of violence within Islam, and it is important that Americans understand it.
They will have to face it in the future....


...Conclusion


We have seen the roots of Islamic violence in the life and teachings of Mohammed. We have seen that world events have conspired to place Islam and Christianity in a conflict of civilizations that has stretched from the sixth to the twenty-first century.
What the future holds is unknown. What is known is that Islamic civilization has a strong tendency to violence that stretches back to the days of Mohammed and that has begun to flare up in resurgent terrorist and revolutionary movements.
The conflict with militant Islam may last a long time—centuries, potentially—since even if curing Muslim society of its violent tendencies is possible, it would involve ripping out or otherwise neutralizing a tendency that has dominated Muslim culture since the days of its founder.
This is not an easy task, for Muslims willing to make the change would be portrayed as traitors to their religion, amid renewed calls to practice Islam in its original, pure, and more violent form in order to regain the favor of God. The signs of the times suggest that we are, indeed, in for a "clash of civilizations" that will be neither brief nor bloodless.
But what also is known is that God has a plan for history and that his grace can work miracles. It is yet possible that—through one means or another—God will bring about a more peaceful world in which militant Islam either is not a threat or nowhere near the threat that it is today.
If this is to happen, our cooperation with God’s grace will require prayer, courage, resourcefulness, and a realistic understanding of the threat we are facing. Until then there can be no illusions about Islam and its endless jihad.

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 06:07 PM
Rummy, IMHO you are not referring to Islam but to cultural practises in the ME carried out by people who are also Moslem.

You will find that these practises are not followed in SE Asian Moslem countries .... so they are NOT specifically Islamic but rather Middle Eastern.

Really? Not Islam. That does amaze me. Aren't they teachings of Imans etc?

The actions of intolerance also take place in UK, e.g. includes honor killing.

Tom Montgomery
07-13-2014, 06:11 PM
So please advise in your view (i.e. do you agree) is it OK to kill people for converting from one faith to another? I don't.In MY view? No.

But Christianity is not far removed from an era where it believed infidels deserved to die. And some cultures harbor a longer memory than ours.

Keith Wilson
07-13-2014, 06:11 PM
My, my; from a site supporting the religion that burned heretic and witches for a thousand years, conquered and forcibly converted the natives of an entire hemisphere,and conducted centuries of hideous and bloody religious wars between various types of Christians, that takes a LOT of chutzpah. Hatred, ignorance, and bigotry, on parade for all to see. You should be proud, Rod.

Tom Montgomery
07-13-2014, 06:14 PM
My, my; from a site supporting the religion that burned heretic and witches for a thousand years, conquered and forcibly converted the natives of an entire hemisphere,and conducted centuries of hideous and bloody religious wars between various types of Christians, that takes a LOT of chutzpah.Or a LOT of ignorance.

RodB
07-13-2014, 06:15 PM
My, my; from a site supporting the religion that burned heretic and witches for a thousand years, conquered and forcibly converted the natives of an entire hemisphere,and conducted centuries of hideous and bloody religious wars between various types of Christians, that takes a LOT of chutzpah. Hatred, ignorance, and bigotry, on parade for all to see. You should be proud.

We have all had some bad behavior in our history....:p

Still the general description and analysis seems logical.


RodB

leikec
07-13-2014, 06:16 PM
Really? Not Islam. That does amaze me. Aren't they teachings of Imans etc?

The actions of intolerance also take place in UK, e.g. includes honor killing.

Fred Phelps "teachings" are not indicative of the majority of Christian beliefs. Only a fool would think otherwise. Would you agree?

Jeff C

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 06:16 PM
In MY view? No.

But Christianity is not far removed from an era where it believed infidels deserved to die. And some cultures harbor a longer memory than ours.

The topic is Islam. Let's not do the Forum Democrat SOP and divert and deflect.

Rum_Pirate
07-13-2014, 06:19 PM
Fred Phelps "teachings" are not indicative of the majority of Christian beliefs. Only a fool would think otherwise. Would you agree?

Jeff C


You offer ONE idiot against the hundreds/thousands of idiots that preach death to the infidel and encourage terrorists etc?

Come back when you have a full hand to play.

Horace
07-13-2014, 06:19 PM
It was wrong when Rummy posted it and it is still wrong.Nick, two comments: First, the passage you quoted from me did not refer to RP's post, and I have already commented on how I interpreted his remark. We seem to be taking different tacks in this discussion, and I have nothing invested in finding offense in what he said. I wonder if the legal constraints against inflammatory speech in the UK might color your perception of the passage in question?



Can you point to a substantial body of criticism from within the Moslem world on record against violent jihad and terrorism (i. e., representative of the majority, not simply protestations from Moslems living within Western societies)? Here you go: http://islam.uga.edu/nineeleven.html
There will be more out there, why not you have a look?
P.S.
I doubt whether the majority of Muslims are able to post to the web, even if they had the time.Second, I thank you for the link, and have scanned many, but certainly not most, of them, and agree with their content. However, every one of those I have looked at so far has been authored either by US or British citizens,or by non-citizens writing in Western countries. Perhaps every one of the essays I have not yet read meets my criterion of originating from within the Moslem world, (i. e., from within Moslem countries), but I would be surprised if such were the case.

Until the societies in question effectively suppress terrorist activities and rebuke the popular attitudes that support them, there won't be much progress toward peace.

Tom Montgomery
07-13-2014, 06:22 PM
Islam's attitude toward infidels may be awful. But is Islam's attitude toward infidel's unique?

If not, who are we to demonize the religion?

And are we even speaking of mainstream members of Islam?

genglandoh
07-13-2014, 06:22 PM
I would hazard a guess that relatively few Muslims are converts. Jut as relatively few Christians are converts.

Most people are raised from infants by their parents within a particular religious belief and tradition. And they tend to stick to that particular religious belief and tradition.

I think you are missing the point.
After Muhammad died the Islam spread from Saudi Arabia to across the entire middle east, north Africa, Spain, India and Indonesia.
There must have been some compelling ideology that attracted people to convert to Islam.

If as you say it is natural for people to stick with their parents religion then you would expect a new religion like Islam would not spread.
So again there must be something compelling about Islam.

Do you have any ideas?

leikec
07-13-2014, 06:24 PM
You offer ONE idiot against the hundreds/thousands of idiots that preach death to the infidel and encourage terrorists etc?

Come back when you have a full hand to play.

I doubt you are worth more of my time--you are making a similar comparison to the one illustrated in my initial post, but you don't seem to have the intellectual depth to recognize it.

Jeff C

Tom Montgomery
07-13-2014, 06:27 PM
I think you are missing the point.
After Muhammad died the Islam spread from Saudi Arabia to across the entire middle east, north Africa, Spain, India and Indonesia.
There must have been some compelling ideology that attracted people to convert to Islam.

If as you say it is natural for people to stick with their parents religion then you would expect a new religion like Islam would not spread.
So again there must be something compelling about Islam.

Do you have any ideas?The Koran appears to have been compelling for millions. Just as has the Bible.

Paul Pless
07-13-2014, 06:29 PM
I think you are missing the point.
After Muhammad died the Islam spread from Saudi Arabia to across the entire middle east, north Africa, Spain, India and Indonesia.
There must have been some compelling ideology that attracted people to convert to Islam.

If as you say it is natural for people to stick with their parents religion then you would expect a new religion like Islam would not spread.
So again there must be something compelling about Islam.

Do you have any ideas?Why do you think Christianity spread throughout Europe at about the same time? Is it possible there was a political reason for its spread? |If you can say yes to that, can you maybe also see there were political reasons for the historic spread of Islam as well? Maybe the reasons that people convert to either religion now are very different than they were 500, 1000, or 1500 years ago. . .

Tom Montgomery
07-13-2014, 06:31 PM
That was a way, way too complicated response to genglandoh.

KISS!!!

Paul Pless
07-13-2014, 06:37 PM
That was a way, way too complicated response to genglandoh.

KISS!!!

To paraphrase my friend from deepest darkest wales, "Complicated questions usually have simple answers - which are almost always wrong."

The facts are that just as Catholicism, Eastern and Greek Orthodoxies, the Anglican church, and later protestant religions largely spread and amassed their followers through a feudal political system, so did the various early, middle, and late Islamic Caliphates. The common man, the peasant, the serf, and the slave in all of these societies worshiped whatever religion his prince or king decreed that he did. There were no alternatives available to people. And in almost all cases the choice of what religion to practice as made by the prince or his dynasty was a political decision, not one of faith.

wizbang 13
07-13-2014, 06:59 PM
the virgins man ..... what about the virgins.

Paul Pless
07-13-2014, 07:04 PM
Oh snap

genglandoh
07-13-2014, 07:08 PM
Why do you think Christianity spread throughout Europe at about the same time? Is it possible there was a political reason for its spread? |If you can say yes to that, can you maybe also see there were political reasons for the historic spread of Islam as well? Maybe the reasons that people convert to either religion now are very different than they were 500, 1000, or 1500 years ago. . .

So are you saying that Islam was only spread via the sword?
There is no Islam ideology that would attract people?

Paul Pless
07-13-2014, 07:14 PM
So are you saying that Islam was only spread via the sword?
There is no Islam ideology that would attract people?

Historically, the vast majority of people became whatever religion they became, whether Muslim or Christian, due to political reasons.


There is no Islam ideology that would attract people?

I did not and would not say that.

Tom Montgomery
07-13-2014, 07:15 PM
So are you saying that Islam was only spread via the sword?Historically? Primarily. Much like Christianity in Europe. Check out the history of Charlemagne as well as that the Albigensian Crusade and the Crusades of the Teutonic Knights.


There is no Islam ideology that would attract people?Now you are addressing contemporary history? See Post #60.

genglandoh
07-13-2014, 08:00 PM
Predestination is by no means unique to Islam; numerous Christian theologians have said much the same thing. The quote sounds very much like John Calvin; identical in some respects. Do people become Presbyterians because 'therefore you do not have to take responsibility for your actions'?

Again, while there are plenty of easy targets, Islam is a large and diverse religion with over a billion adherents. Making a list of the worst things that are done by Muslims is simple, but that doesn't tell us much about the religion as a whole. I could do the same for Christianity easily, a nd it would tell us just as little.

Please do not misunderstand me.
I am not looking to make a list of the worst things about Islam.

I am looking for what attracts people to Islam.

CWSmith
07-13-2014, 08:20 PM
Islam's attitude toward infidels may be awful.

From my very limited experience I would happily bet that if you walk into almost any Mosque in America you will find a congregation that rejects such things in the same way that I reject many passages in the Old Testament (I'm not afraid to wear a coat of many colors and I try very hard not to practice an eye-for-an-eye, I refuse to marry my brother's wife if anything happens to him, and I love a good cheeseburger).

CWSmith
07-13-2014, 08:25 PM
the virgins man ..... what about the virgins.

What is given to women martyrs?

The Koran does not promise female virgins and if I were a male martyr I would worry about that.

bobbys
07-13-2014, 08:40 PM
bobbys converted.

Actually, I'm being held hostage.

CWSmith
07-13-2014, 08:45 PM
Some are attracted to absolutist, authoritarian creeds. Since I've never suffered that, I can only speculate that they lack some basic confidence in their perceptions and/or the nature of daily experience.

Eternity can be a fearful prospect.

bobbys
07-13-2014, 08:52 PM
For the jokes!.

jokes.? you want jokes?.
Well I have no Jewish jokes but I have some goyishe jokes.

a shiksa goes shopping and looks at a Beautiful coat made of fur, she liked it and asked the clerk how much? .
The clerk said it's 10thousand dollars.

GOOD! the shiksa replied, I will buy it!.

2 neighbors decided to vacation together.

One said to the other, where shall we go and how should we go? .

The other one said , how about renting a Rv and let's travel through the south visiting southern culture for a few weeks?.

great idea said the other one , let's do that!..



A goy had something come up and could not meet his mother for dinner.

He called her up and told his mother.

The mother replied.

OK!

wizbang 13
07-13-2014, 08:55 PM
so , Bin Laden goes to his heaven , to be greeted by George Washington , who wails on him with a ball bat. Next in line is Thomas Jefferson who wails on him with a golf club , next is James Madison who wails on him with a cricket bat ..... this is getting old to Bin Laden who cries out "where are my virgins!!" , James Monroe steps up for a swing with a tire iron and says "Virginians man Virginians".

bobbys
07-13-2014, 08:55 PM
John woke up one morning with a idea, he was excited about it so called his wife Mary about it, she was even more excited! see ,john thought how about buying a new lawn mower and spending the weekends doing yard work together instead of shopping at the malls.

bobbys
07-13-2014, 08:58 PM
Jimmy ...A young goy from Idaho was wondering about his future, He decided on a trade school.

Syed
07-13-2014, 09:02 PM
One which I shall not experience. When I die, I'll be quite happy to remain incognito, null, and void.
We do not walk in/out at will.

bobbys
07-13-2014, 09:02 PM
Fred and Nancy had 3children, They were at times very unruly and not very well behaved.

Fred and Nancy found that spankings improved their behavior .

bobbys
07-13-2014, 09:05 PM
Fred liked to save money, H e found out by fixing his own car was enjoyable plus he learned a great deal. He also enjoyed building up a tool collection.

bobbys
07-13-2014, 09:17 PM
I sure hope no one reports me to Scott about these jokes, If anyone gets mad, I'm sorry, I know religious jokes can cross lines.

Fred a goy . Decided one day to buy a roto tiller and grow a garden...

What better use for the back yard he said to himself.

The neighbors all came over to watch the garden grow and enjoy bottles of cold beer.
In the F all sometimes they watched football together.

CWSmith
07-13-2014, 09:32 PM
I sure hope no one reports me to Scott about these jokes, ...

Is that what they are?

L.W. Baxter
07-13-2014, 10:51 PM
Maybe CWSmith is not a white anglo-saxon protestant, in which case he should not laugh or even make eye contact while we are telling out jokes!

epoxyboy
07-13-2014, 10:51 PM
"Turkey...a model for what a 'western' Islamic nation can be."

Perhaps. But does it approach the Western ideal? And what are current trends there?
LMAO - What passes for the "western ideal"? Most western countries have some interesting character flaws, and I dont see anything out of Turkey that is substantially worse than anything that western countries do, including the recent riots. They share borders with several volatile neighbours, and keep the peace remarkably well IMO. I'd very much doubt that any other country would do as well, in fact, given the same circumstances. Having spent a month there in the past, it is one place I would happily go back to

PeterSibley
07-13-2014, 10:55 PM
I recently had this discussion, the one about "violent Islam" with an acquaintance. I suggested they do a brief summary of violent deaths over the last 100 years and see how many of them had occurred in Moslem countries .

End of conversation.

L.W. Baxter
07-13-2014, 10:56 PM
LMAO - What passes for the "western ideal"? Most western countries have some interesting character flaws, and I dont see anything out of Turkey that is substantially worse than anything that western countries do, including the recent riots. They share borders with several volatile neighbours, and keep the peace remarkably well IMO. I'd very much doubt that any other country would do as well, in fact, given the same circumstances. Having spent a month there in the past, it is one place I would happily go back to


Plus, Turkey's national sport is grease wrestling.

Before anybody gets too excited, it's only for the biggest, hairiest men.

Canoeyawl
07-13-2014, 11:04 PM
Fred and Nancy had 3children, They were at times very unruly and not very well behaved.

Fred and Nancy found that spankings improved their behavior .

And the children grew up to be the apples of their parents eyes. The two boys in prison, leaders in the Aryan Brotherhood and the girl turning tricks down on Alvarado street by the Pioneer Chicken stand.

L.W. Baxter
07-13-2014, 11:18 PM
There are many forms of incredible arrogance.

Lew Barrett
07-13-2014, 11:32 PM
Not addressed to me, but I'll respond: No, but apparently you've seen something you consider pertinent.

Please expound.

Right, not addressed to you. Watch it and learn about even handed journalism. If you don't have the time to do that I won't make the time to discuss it with you. It's easy to do; then you can decide for yourself.

Lew Barrett
07-13-2014, 11:37 PM
bobbys converted

I thought he married in. He's still got a goiyisha kup. :D

Nanoose
07-13-2014, 11:37 PM
Nope, it was Zoroastrianism
And you general question is not factual.
You'll have to help me here. Zoroastrianism dates to the 6thC BCE which does not make it the first monotheistic faith.
??

Lew Barrett
07-13-2014, 11:44 PM
Really? Not Islam. That does amaze me. Aren't they teachings of Imans etc?

The actions of intolerance also take place in UK, e.g. includes honor killing.

This quote expresses the depth of your ignorance on this topic. It's a small mistake that in any other context would go without comment, and likely without notice. But in the context of this thread, it matters a good deal.

Iman (sic) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam)

PeterSibley
07-13-2014, 11:55 PM
This quote expresses the depth of your ignorance on this topic. It's a small mistake that in any other context would go without comment, and likely without notice. But in the context of this thread, it matters a good deal.

Iman (sic) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam)

Most Westerners think the authority in Islam follows the Roman model, it doesn't.

Nanoose
07-13-2014, 11:59 PM
Islam's attitude toward infidels may be awful. But is Islam's attitude toward infidel's unique?

If not, who are we to demonize the religion?

And are we even speaking of mainstream members of Islam?

I'm wracking my brain to remember when Jesus told his followers to kill the infidels. I've got love your enemies, pray for those that persecute you; serve one another; self-sacrifice to the point of death;grace, mercy, love. But nothing about kill the infidels. I believe Islam's position regarding infidels is unique.

Nanoose
07-13-2014, 11:59 PM
I think you are missing the point.
After Muhammad died the Islam spread from Saudi Arabia to across the entire middle east, north Africa, Spain, India and Indonesia.
There must have been some compelling ideology that attracted people to convert to Islam.

If as you say it is natural for people to stick with their parents religion then you would expect a new religion like Islam would not spread.
So again there must be something compelling about Islam.

Do you have any ideas?

Yes. A sword.

Paul G.
07-14-2014, 12:03 AM
All religions have the same problems, imaginary beings that somehow demand temporal power through their priests and holy men on earth. The suicide bomber community comes almost entirely from islam, likewise honour killers, clitoris removal, apostasy murders, sharia law and its loathsome sexual hypocrisy, and the almost complete subjugation of woman. Islam shares with other religions the common obsession with perverting normal human sexuality. Yes it has many problems and its stultifying effect on modern society is but one. Comparing christianity with islam is like comparing typhoid to cholera, The beauty of the human spirit expressing art and culture though a religious veil is in spite of rather than because of. I do not mind what people believe, but dont make me pay for it or have to alter my life because of it. The west has shown repeatedly it has no balls to stand up to religious gangsters- cartoons anyone? Partly because of our tolerance and religious freedom that would never be returned in islamic societies. Yes I think islam is a bigger problem than what many apologists think.

Nanoose
07-14-2014, 12:05 AM
And in almost all cases the choice of what religion to practice as made by the prince or his dynasty was a political decision, not one of faith.
I'll disagree. Christians died for not worshipping the emperor. The reformers were judged to be a threat to the politically sanctioned faith. The muslims in Islamic countries converting to Christianity today do it knowing the cost.

PeterSibley
07-14-2014, 12:16 AM
A difference is that Christianity had to fit with the empire it survived in until it became the official religion... killing for your religion was not possible at that stage but that was made up for later in spades.

Islam occurred in something of a vacuum, it became the empire and acted as empires act..

hanleyclifford
07-14-2014, 12:17 AM
I started to think about my own question and to do a little reading on the web.
It seems that the idea of predestination might be the big unique belief that would draw some people to convert to Islam.
The idea that your life has been predetermined my god and there for you do not have to take responsibility for your actions.



Belief in al-Qadar (divine destiny) is based on four things.
1– العلم Al-'Alam – Knowledge: i.e., that Allah knows what His creation will do, by virtue of His eternal knowledge, including their choices that will take place.
2– كتابة Kitabat – Writing: i.e., that Allah has written every thing that exists including the destiny of all creatures in al-Lauh al-Mahfuz prior to creation.
3– مشيئة Mashii'at – Will: i.e., that what Allah wills happens and what He does not will does not happen. There is no movement in the heavens or on earth but happens by His will. This does not mean that He forces things to happen the way they happen in the area of human beings' voluntary actions. It means that He knew what they will chose, wrote it and now lets it happen,
4– الخلق Al-Khalaq – Creation and formation: i.e., that Allah is the Creator of all things, including the actions of His servants. They do their actions in a real sense, and Allah is the Creator of them and of their actions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Islam Good post, Geng; and you have indeed answered the question. Any religion that teaches predestination is attractive to large numbers of people. Predestination makes a religion "easy" - no need to work hard or even learn much - you just go with the flow. Predestination also occurs in Christendom, notably Calvinism; it's a cop out for the spiritually lazy.

pcford
07-14-2014, 12:24 AM
Dude, nobody converts to Judaism, well, maybe Sammy Davis Jr. did. That's about the complete list that comes to mind at the moment.

Don't think it's a rare as that Lew...in a possible "mixed marriage" situation, it will be agreed that one of the partners will change.

Nanoose
07-14-2014, 12:26 AM
I see a contradiction between #3 and #4.
Further, the Islamic view is that Allah will weigh your deeds after death, and should your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, you will go to paradise. This contradicts "easy" and "go with the flow".

Nanoose
07-14-2014, 12:27 AM
Don't think it's a rare as that Lew...in a possible "mixed marriage" situation, it will be agreed that one of the partners will change.
I know a number of converts to Judaism, including former Christians.

hanleyclifford
07-14-2014, 12:40 AM
I see a contradiction between #3 and #4.
Further, the Islamic view is that Allah will weigh your deeds after death, and should your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, you will go to paradise. This contradicts "easy" and "go with the flow". Both #3 and #4 support the notion of Predestination - there is no contradiction there. The contradiction lies in your comment regarding the weighing of deeds. If that really is in the Koran, then that is where the contradiction lies.

Nanoose
07-14-2014, 12:44 AM
Both #3 and #4 support the notion of Predestination - there is no contradiction there. The contradiction lies in your comment regarding the weighing of deeds. If that really is in the Koran, then that is where the contradiction lies.


3– مشيئة Mashii'at – Will: i.e., that what Allah wills happens and what He does not will does not happen. There is no movement in the heavens or on earth but happens by His will. This does not mean that He forces things to happen the way they happen in the area of human beings' voluntary actions. It means that He knew what they will chose, wrote it and now lets it happen,
4– الخلق Al-Khalaq – Creation and formation: i.e., that Allah is the Creator of all things, including the actions of His servants. They do their actions in a real sense, and Allah is the Creator of them and of their actions.

I find those contradictory. YMMV.

And you're right - this predestination does contradict Islamic belief:
On the Last Day, resurrected humans and jinn will be judged by Allah according to their deeds. One's eternal destination depends on balance of good to bad deeds in life. They are either granted admission toParadise, where they will enjoy spiritual and physical pleasures forever, or condemned to Hell to suffer spiritual and physical torment for eternity. http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/afterlife.htm

Syed
07-14-2014, 01:48 AM
Sunni view
Sunni enumerate Qadar as one aspect of their creed (Arabic: aqidah) They believe that the divine destiny is when God wrote down in the Preserved Tablet ("al-Lawhu 'l-Mahfuz") all that has happened and will happen, which will come to pass as written.

According to this belief, a person's action is not caused by what is written in the Preserved Tablet but, rather, the action is written in the Preserved Tablet because God already knows all occurrences without the restrictions of time[2].

Another perspective asserts that God is omniscient and therefore has foreknowledge of all possible futures. With divine power, God then also deems which futures will be allowed, and man's choice is between those possibilities approved by God[citation needed].

An individual has power to choose, but since God created time and space he knows what will happen. God is without any bond of time and space so what will happen has only meaning to the humans who are limited in time and space. An analogy is similar to someone who watches the movie second time, he knows what will happen next but for the first time watcher the next move is unknown.


Belief in al-Qadar is based on four things
1 – العلم Knowledge: i.e., that Allah knows what His creation will do, by virtue of His eternal knowledge, including their choices that will take place.

2 – كتابة Writing: i.e., that Allah has written every thing that exists including the destiny of all creatures in al-Lawh al-Mahfuud prior to creation.

3 – مشيئة Will: i.e., that what Allah wills happens and what He does not will does not happen. There is no movement in the heavens or on earth but it happens by His will. This does not mean that he forces things to happen the way they happen in the area of human beings volunteer actions. It means that He knew what they will chose, wrote it and let it happen, and was, is and can always change it when He wants.

4 - الخلق Creation and formation: i.e., that Allah is the Creator of all things, including the actions of His servants. They do their actions in a real sense, and Allah is the Creator of them and of their actions.

http://www.irfi.org/articles3/articles_4801_4900/predestination%20in%20islam%20-wikipediahtml.htm

isla
07-14-2014, 03:16 AM
We have all had some bad behavior in our history....:p

Still the general description and analysis seems logical.


RodBI don't think "logical" is appropriate in this context. Catholic Answers is an evangelical, Catholic apologist website. So you are presenting one religious fundamentalist group's criticism of another type of fundamentalist group. Not logical, just heavily biased. They try to suggest that the translation of Islam is submission, rather than peace. The word Islam literally translates in English to "becoming peaceful, acceptance, submission, self-surrender", in the sense of submission to God's will. It comes from the word Salam meaning peace.

isla
07-14-2014, 03:20 AM
I'm wracking my brain to remember when Jesus told his followers to kill the infidels. I've got love your enemies, pray for those that persecute you; serve one another; self-sacrifice to the point of death;grace, mercy, love. But nothing about kill the infidels. I believe Islam's position regarding infidels is unique.And the Christian crusades against Islam fits in with the teachings of Jesus how exactly?

PeterSibley
07-14-2014, 03:24 AM
The Spanish destruction of South American native cultures ? Jewish pogroms ?

Peaceful Christianity is a myth.

isla
07-14-2014, 03:32 AM
So are you saying that Islam was only spread via the sword?
There is no Islam ideology that would attract people?Perhaps we should ask Cassius Clay (Muhammed Ali) who converted to Sunni Islam in 1975.
Or Cat Stevens (Yusef Islam). In December 1977, Stevens converted to Islam and adopted the name Yusuf Islam the following year. In 1979, he auctioned all his guitars for charity and left his music career to devote himself to educational and philanthropic causes in the Muslim community. He has received several awards for his work in promoting peace in the world, including the 2003 World Award, the 2004 Man of Peace Award, and the 2007 Mediterranean Prize for Peace. No swords involved there as far as I can see.

Peerie Maa
07-14-2014, 04:19 AM
Nick, two comments: First, the passage you quoted from me did not refer to RP's post, and I have already commented on how I interpreted his remark. We seem to be taking different tacks in this discussion, and I have nothing invested in finding offense in what he said. I wonder if the legal constraints against inflammatory speech in the UK might color your perception of the passage in question?Second, I thank you for the link, and have scanned many, but certainly not most, of them, and agree with their content. However, every one of those I have looked at so far has been authored either by US or British citizens,or by non-citizens writing in Western countries. Perhaps every one of the essays I have not yet read meets my criterion of originating from within the Moslem world, (i. e., from within Moslem countries), but I would be surprised if such were the case.Until the societies in question effectively suppress terrorist activities and rebuke the popular attitudes that support them, there won't be much progress toward peace.Horace, I did point out in the P.S. that most muslims would be unable through lack of the internet to, too busy to, not see the need to post some thing that they see as self evident, just as most christians do not see the need to post condemnation of child molesting priests, nor do most jews post condemnations of the ethnic cleansing of palestinians. Need I go on? The way that Islam is structured , without an equivalent of a Synod, or a heirachy of bishops, means that each Imam preaches to his congregation without any over arching guidance from the "centre". This means that even if every one of them preached your message, we would not hear about it.

Syed
07-14-2014, 05:39 AM
Islam was introduced in Indonesia by Muslim traders and no swords were involved.

slug
07-14-2014, 07:28 AM
The question is what attracts people to any religious cult.

the Rev Jim Jones ?

http://s13.postimg.org/e8xhfo5c7/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
free photo hosting (http://postimage.org/)

Keith Wilson
07-14-2014, 07:37 AM
Hanley and Nanoose: Predestination is by no means unique to Islam; numerous Christian theologians have said much the same thing. The original quote (Belief in al-Qadar is based on four things . . .) sounds very much like John Calvin; identical in some respects. IIRC predestination is still doctrine of several major Protestant denominations, including the Presbyterians, although they don't make such a big deal of it as previously.

Rum_Pirate
07-14-2014, 08:03 AM
All religions have the same problems, imaginary beings that somehow demand temporal power through their priests and holy men on earth. The suicide bomber community comes almost entirely from islam, likewise honour killers, clitoris removal, apostasy murders, sharia law and its loathsome sexual hypocrisy, and the almost complete subjugation of woman. Islam shares with other religions the common obsession with perverting normal human sexuality. Yes it has many problems and its stultifying effect on modern society is but one. Comparing christianity with islam is like comparing typhoid to cholera, The beauty of the human spirit expressing art and culture though a religious veil is in spite of rather than because of. I do not mind what people believe, but dont make me pay for it or have to alter my life because of it. The west has shown repeatedly it has no balls to stand up to religious gangsters- cartoons anyone? Partly because of our tolerance and religious freedom that would never be returned in islamic societies. Yes I think islam is a bigger problem than what many apologists think.

I agree with you.

changeng
07-14-2014, 08:08 AM
Who'e been out and dated an Ultra Orthodox Jewish lady ???? Nah thought not :rolleyes:

I don't know why this ingoramus is being humored with replys.

Breakaway
07-14-2014, 09:20 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf1TjBRaNbc


Try this.

Kevin

TomF
07-14-2014, 09:30 AM
I heard a speaker last month who said that here in Canada, Islam is growing faster than Christianity. Gaining adherents. Some of whom are folks who've moved here from other parts of the world, and brought their faith and their family's faith with them, but certainly not all.

Various Muslim organizations have spoken out publicly - Here's (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/06/boko_haram_does_not_represent_islam.html)a fairly recent piece written by a reporter who's also Chair of an organization called Muslim Writers of Canada, in the wake of the Boko Haram kidnappings in Nigeria. An interesting excerpt:
Waiting for the PM, I started talking to one of the RCMP officers assigned to the PM’s security detail. Around that time last year, the RCMP had come under fire for corruption, so I asked him flat out: “What’s going on with the RCMP? Whatever happened to the noble ideal of the legendary Sam Steele? All we hear about now is corruption and scandal. What’s that all about?”

He replied succinctly: “Look, you know how many RCMP officers there are in Canada? Almost 70,000. All of them do their job day in and day out with honour, integrity and courage, but when one rotten apple does something stupid, the whole RCMP gets a bad rap. It’s like what Muslims go through; a few bad guys spoil it for everybody.”

Bingo!

It was a funny parallel, but one that aptly illustrates how Muslims have come to be so misrepresented and perceived so wrongly.I know many Muslim people - knew more when I lived in the much more cosmopolitan cities of Edmonton and Vancouver. They're justifiably horrified by Islamism. And I echo their horror when I look at the crazies still populating parts of my faith community, particularly the bits of it linked to White Power, neo-Nazism, etc. ... and reflected in the many homes of Right wing nationalist politics in Canada, the US, and Europe.

Nanoose
07-14-2014, 11:44 AM
And the Christian crusades against Islam fits in with the teachings of Jesus how exactly?
They don't.

peb
07-14-2014, 11:49 AM
Ok, many of you folks aren't Catholic, so this essay being written from such a overtly Catholic viewpoint might turn you off. But get past that and I think you will find some good answers to the OP question.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/709774/posts

Nanoose
07-14-2014, 11:49 AM
Perhaps we should ask Cassius Clay (Muhammed Ali) who converted to Sunni Islam in 1975.
Or Cat Stevens (Yusef Islam). In December 1977, Stevens converted to Islam and adopted the name Yusuf Islam the following year. In 1979, he auctioned all his guitars for charity and left his music career to devote himself to educational and philanthropic causes in the Muslim community. He has received several awards for his work in promoting peace in the world, including the 2003 World Award, the 2004 Man of Peace Award, and the 2007 Mediterranean Prize for Peace. No swords involved there as far as I can see.
We can cite examples of individuals - good and bad examples - from all faiths. I don't think it answers the OP or speaks to the basic tenets of a particular faith. Islam began with the sword. Christianity began with grace and love. The foundations of the two beliefs are different. ISIS is today killing those that will not convert; Christianity is not.
Further, just because someone calls themselves a Muslim or Christian does not make it so. You may put on the Pope's robes and call yourself the Pope, but that would not make it so.

Nanoose
07-14-2014, 11:55 AM
Hanley and Nanoose: Predestination is by no means unique to Islam; numerous Christian theologians have said much the same thing. The original quote (Belief in al-Qadar is based on four things . . .) sounds very much like John Calvin; identical in some respects. IIRC predestination is still doctrine of several major Protestant denominations, including the Presbyterians, although they don't make such a big deal of it as previously.
Seriously? C'mon Keith - we've known each other for a long time. You don't think I know this? I didn't say anything the first time you mentioned it - but here you go. Got it Keith.
As far as I can tell this isn't a discussion about predestination. I thought it was about what attracts people to Islam. But the predestination noted conflicts with their idea of eternity, as does Calvin's. Again, different topic.

Lew Barrett
07-14-2014, 12:24 PM
Don't think it's a rare as that Lew...in a possible "mixed marriage" situation, it will be agreed that one of the partners will change.

Not the case in practice. Becoming a Jew is among the most challenging conversions extent. There are many examples of mixed marriages where one or the other part retains their birth religion with many fewer examples of conversions. Marrying outside the faith may be common, conversions to Judaism much less so. Judaism is not a proselytizing creed. It's quite the opposite. It's made difficult. Ask Bobbys.

TomF
07-14-2014, 01:17 PM
Because I'm lay chair of the board at our local Cathedral - populated as most North American mainline churches are, by a majority of people over 60 - I've been thinking about what attracts people to some religious groups ... and brings long term decline in others. The mainline churches in the developed world are dying, while other flavours of Christianity (especially evangelical charismatic sorts) resurge ... and Islam grows even faster.

Now some argue that here as elsewhere, size doesn't matter. But you do wonder just how small the guy was who came up with that famous phrase. ;) And how much the phrase is a rationalization and justification for just being a little wee thing, which still has an ego to sustain. A faith group with nobody participating is not a great advertisement for the effectiveness of that flavour at helping contemporary folks reach God, whatever may have been true in the past. And we do know that there is a rather vast number of people who describe themselves as "spiritual," who at least halfways believe in God (and various other spiritual things), but are repelled ... or at best left cold ... by their experience of Religion.

We in the mainline Protestant churches have often smugly contrasted what we do with the Evangelicals. Mainline guys often claim that "They" will dumb down the Gospel message into very simplistic, fat brush strokes. Preaching rules, demanding tithes etc. by frightening people with damnation, and indulging in show business-like performances on a Sunday to pack 'em in. That is, people go With Them rather than come to be With Us because such people aren't "intellectually rigorous enough" (i.e. they're stupid) or "liturgically sophisticated enough" (i.e. they're vulgar) for the things we celebrate from Our Tradition.

No wonder folks stay away! Why would anyone willingly go somewhere to be told they're stupid hicks? Oh, and God must really must have a stick up his arse to hang with these guys - why would you even want such a God to "love you?" Or even believe he'd know what "love" meant?

I think moderate Islam and the brands of Christianity who really are drawing crowds ... are very often mediating an experience of God that fits better with aspects of modern culture. These religious groups meet people where they are to start with ... and show them that God's right there. Yes, there's fear and shame and etc. in some such communities ... some are simply HORRIBLE! But there are many other communities which could not be more different from that. God's love really is the priority ... and it's obvious from how members live their lives, how they care for the poor, homeless, etc. How they provide a path for really positive personal renewal, among many who have had a hellish time 'till now.

Now, I still twist and grumble about some of the theology - which often is a lot more simple. I think in staying accessible, it often sells people who spiritually hungry pretty short. But it directs people up a straight and fat pipeline to God. And once that connection's been solidly made, there's lots of room to develop nuance, to broaden one's comfort with difference, as one relaxes into a friendship with God which will be as unique as with any individual. Complexity will come in, just like our other friendships get more complicated (and usually more satisfying) over time.

At our Cathedral we've got to take a few lessons from what's presently working in Islam and among Evangelicals. And I love Chant, the great music of centuries of the Western tradition, the beautiful poetic cadence of Cranmer's words in the Book of Common Prayer. But symphony orchestras don't have sell-out audiences in every neighbourhood every week either. There's not a lot of Shakespeare on prime-time TV. It's been ages since anyone sold out a Schubert Lieder recital in a small town, but people pack the bars and concerts every week for Country music, or Rock, or Blues.

Moderate Islam is growing because it meets people where they are - and the rigorous prayer life means God meets them there too. It's not something so much to deplore, as to observe ... and in some respects, perhaps imitate.

Peerie Maa
07-14-2014, 01:29 PM
. ISIS is today killing those that will not convert; Christianity is not.


Again some one is conflating politics with religion to the detriment of the religion. Isis are fighting a sectarian war trying to make their sect dominant, just as the prods and IRA did in the troubles.

Do not condemn all Muslims because a political caucus is behaving the way that Christians behaved in the Balkans a few years ago.

isla
07-14-2014, 02:11 PM
So are you saying that Islam was only spread via the sword?
There is no Islam ideology that would attract people?


We can cite examples of individuals - good and bad examples - from all faiths. I don't think it answers the OP or speaks to the basic tenets of a particular faith. Islam began with the sword. Christianity began with grace and love. The foundations of the two beliefs are different. ISIS is today killing those that will not convert; Christianity is not.
Further, just because someone calls themselves a Muslim or Christian does not make it so. You may put on the Pope's robes and call yourself the Pope, but that would not make it so.I was responding to genglandoh's question, (he is the OP), with a couple of examples where swords where not involved in a conversion to Islam. If you would like some insight into why Cat Stevens became Yusuf Islam, then here's a link (http://www.islamtomorrow.com/converts/yusuf_islam.asp). I'm sure there are a million reasons why people get religion, or convert to another. As an atheist I can only wonder why anybody believes any of it.

Lew Barrett
07-14-2014, 02:15 PM
Conflating politics, economics and religion is easy to do. To some extent it's probably unavoidable. The same holds true when using individuals to condemn a group. I was at a dinner the other night and the topic came up. "Why do people hate the Jews?" I answered: "prejudice." The question was restated. But why the prejudice? The assumption, it seemed to me, was that the people being hated surely must have supplied a reason for this; its existence was de facto proof of validity, surely there was something to make of this phenomenon that had a basis in truth or fact? Indeed, I could easily come up with anecdotal reasons. Jews didn't assimilate, they lived apart (ignoring that frequently, they were forced to), they were money lenders (ignoring that in large swathes of Europe, they were not permitted to hold title to land), they have curly hair, big noses (ignoring the fact that Judaism is a religion and not an ethnicity). Then there is the outwardly flattering (but actually stereotypical) notion that Jews are all successful (i.e. rich) which ignores the bulk of the history (especially in Europe) of poverty that characters like Tevya the Milkman represent so much more accurately in respect to wealth than the Rothschild family. And so on.

I don't wish to indict my hosts, they are wonderful, open and tolerant people. It's just that this question remains a mystery to them.

Like Islam, the subtle effects of history, time, place, politics and individual differences are easily conflated with who people are, what they really believe and the vast differences in practice between people of various tribes, nationalities, creeds, places and times.

Personally, I find cold comfort in all religions since I simply don't believe in an all knowing all loving (or all hating God) who made us in His image. I try to understand time, place, cultural variations and the behaviors of individuals within the context of their situations, the vast bulk of which are more alike than dissimilar when you get down to families and the regular folk. There is no excusing killing in the name of Allah, Jesus, Yahweh, Kali or Buddha. Jihadis of the modern stripe give Islam a bad name so yeah, that's a fact.

Yet making a distinction between Islam and some notably influential people who are Muslims and who engage in fearsome behavior is not only appropriate and honest, it is critical if we are to ever resolve the issues tearing at us. Oh yes, that and seeing the role of oil and empire in all of this as it bears on the modern world.

The Muslims I know, who live near and around me, are just like me with the same needs, desires and hopes. This is why I find the subject and the discussion confusing and disturbing, and the notion that most of us discussing it might actually be able to put a singular face on Islam so banal. Which Islam are we talking about here?

Peerie Maa
07-14-2014, 03:22 PM
^Spot on.

It is a pity that pointing out that the word "Prejudice" means that there is no reason to justify the opinion might have been a tad crass at dinner with friends.

Lew Barrett
07-14-2014, 03:37 PM
^Spot on.

It is a pity that pointing out that the word "Prejudice" means that there is no reason to justify the opinion might have been a tad crass at dinner with friends.

They are close, bright and actually minority folks themselves (loosely speaking: Chinese and AmerInd). When I pointed out that the question itself was leading, even my wif failed to grasp why. It's subtle. Like most attitudes towards people who may be perceived as different than us, the roots are hidden deeply in human behavior.

I think Tolkein dealt with it in an interesting fashion. The people in the "other shire" were always not to be trusted, a bit odd and their ways were wrong. :)

John Smith
07-14-2014, 04:18 PM
Islam is a noble religion. It teaches tolerance and respect. Sadly, like too many religions, it has been perverted in some areas by people seeking power. The poor and oppressed are fish in a barrel for those who preach revenge and domination.

It isn't Islam that is to blame. It's the militant factions who wield it as a weapon.

Religion doesn't kill people. People with religion kill people.

PeterSibley
07-14-2014, 05:53 PM
Conflating politics, economics and religion is easy to do. To some extent it's probably unavoidable. The same holds true when using individuals to condemn a group. I was at a dinner the other night and the topic came up. "Why do people hate the Jews?" I answered: "prejudice." The question was restated. But why the prejudice? The assumption, it seemed to me, was that the people being hated surely must have supplied a reason for this; its existence was de facto proof of validity, surely there was something to make of this phenomenon that had a basis in truth or fact? Indeed, I could easily come up with anecdotal reasons. Jews didn't assimilate, they lived apart (ignoring that frequently, they were forced to), they were money lenders (ignoring that in large swathes of Europe, they were not permitted to hold title to land), they have curly hair, big noses (ignoring the fact that Judaism is a religion and not an ethnicity). Then there is the outwardly flattering (but actually stereotypical) notion that Jews are all successful (i.e. rich) which ignores the bulk of the history (especially in Europe) of poverty that characters like Tevya the Milkman represent so much more accurately in respect to wealth than the Rothschild family. And so on.

I don't wish to indict my hosts, they are wonderful, open and tolerant people. It's just that this question remains a mystery to them.

Like Islam, the subtle effects of history, time, place, politics and individual differences are easily conflated with who people are, what they really believe and the vast differences in practice between people of various tribes, nationalities, creeds, places and times.

Personally, I find cold comfort in all religions since I simply don't believe in an all knowing all loving (or all hating God) who made us in His image. I try to understand time, place, cultural variations and the behaviors of individuals within the context of their situations, the vast bulk of which are more alike than dissimilar when you get down to families and the regular folk. There is no excusing killing in the name of Allah, Jesus, Yahweh, Kali or Buddha. Jihadis of the modern stripe give Islam a bad name so yeah, that's a fact.

Yet making a distinction between Islam and some notably influential people who are Muslims and who engage in fearsome behavior is not only appropriate and honest, it is critical if we are to ever resolve the issues tearing at us. Oh yes, that and seeing the role of oil and empire in all of this as it bears on the modern world.

The Muslims I know, who live near and around me, are just like me with the same needs, desires and hopes. This is why I find the subject and the discussion confusing and disturbing, and the notion that most of us discussing it might actually be able to put a singular face on Islam so banal. Which Islam are we talking about here?

the other .......

CWSmith
07-14-2014, 05:54 PM
If you would like some insight into why Cat Stevens became Yusuf Islam...

I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with Yusuf Islam joining in the call to kill Salman Rushdie. I don't hold Rushdie in any high regard, but to kill a man because he ridiculed the prophet is unacceptable.

CWSmith
07-14-2014, 05:55 PM
Religion doesn't kill people. People with religion kill people.

And people without religion do a pretty good job of it, too.

LeeG
07-14-2014, 06:15 PM
. ISIS is today killing those that will not convert; Christianity is not. .

Actually ISIS is killing Muslims who will not submit to their political and religious edicts.

Lew Barrett
07-14-2014, 08:10 PM
the other .......

You mean the Mohammedans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammedan) I'm sure!

Obsolescence

The term has been largely superseded by "Muslim", "Moslem" or "Islamic", but was commonly used only in Western literature until at least the mid-1960s. Muslim is more commonly used today, and the term Mohammedan is widely considered archaic or in some cases even offensive.

Muslim objections to the term

Some modern Muslims have objected to the term, saying that the term was not used by Muhammad himself or his earlier followers, and that the religion teaches the worship of God alone (see shirk and tawhid) and not Muhammad or any other of God's prophets, according to Muslim beliefs. Thus modern Muslims believe "Mohammedan" is a misnomer, "which seem to them to carry the implication of worship of Mohammed, as Christian and Christianity imply the worship of Christ." Also, historically the term al-Muḥammadīya has been used in Islam to denote several sects that have been considered heretical by mainstream Islam.

Lew Barrett
07-14-2014, 08:15 PM
If you can first objectify and then demean your enemy, it makes it much easier to attack them with full force. They are not after all really humans like us. They have an evil creed, an evil faith, evil behavior, and most importantly, they are all the same. None bearing the mark escape judgment en masse. They are wicked, to be feared, loathed and tarred with a broad brush least any escape being named.

What a familiar and awful tactic this is.

CWSmith
07-14-2014, 08:18 PM
If you can first objectify and then demean your enemy, it makes it much easier to attack them with full force. They are not after all really humans like us. They have an evil creed, an evil faith, evil behavior, and most importantly, they are all the same. None bearing the mark escape judgment en masse. They are wicked, to be feared, loathed and tarred with a broad brush least any escape being named.

What a familiar and awful tactic this is.

We've done it for generations. I was going to make a list going back through the wars, but Scott won't like it...

Lew Barrett
07-14-2014, 08:25 PM
We've done it for generations. I was going to make a list going back through the wars, but Scott won't like it...

This thread is a revealing but embarrassing missive in respect to the utterances of some subscribers. It shows us again how linear and unimaginative the thinking of some people can be.

'Those people in the other shire are not worthy of our respect nor their ways sensible or acceptable to us! We see them in black and white, barely having taken the time to learn who they are.'

Other participants make you proud and provide some hope that we might some day sort things out.

PeterSibley
07-14-2014, 09:48 PM
You mean the Mohammedans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammedan) I'm sure!
.

Actually I meant the other anything.... refugees, illegals , Asians, migrants who don't speak the local dialect. Other classes , other colours , other religions, atheists !

Some humans are pretty accepting of difference but it's spectacularly easy to light the fuse on the xenophobia bomb.

One went off in Australia 15 years ago and the explosion is still going on.

Nanoose
07-14-2014, 09:57 PM
Again some one is conflating politics with religion to the detriment of the religion. Isis are fighting a sectarian war trying to make their sect dominant, just as the prods and IRA did in the troubles.

Do not condemn all Muslims because a political caucus is behaving the way that Christians behaved in the Balkans a few years ago.
I'm not condemning all Muslims as, I hope, you're not condemning all Christians.
Again, claiming a label does not make it so. Christ was quick to tell Peter to put the sword away, saying those who live by it would die by it.

PeterSibley
07-14-2014, 10:07 PM
I'm not condemning all Muslims as, I hope, you're not condemning all Christians.
Again, claiming a label does not make it so. Christ was quick to tell Peter to put the sword away, saying those who live by it would die by it.

Interesting that Peter was carrying eh ?

purri
07-14-2014, 10:08 PM
Cutting edge theology...

PeterSibley
07-14-2014, 10:11 PM
It was at the time, all the soldiers had them.

Nanoose
07-14-2014, 10:30 PM
Religion doesn't kill people. People with religion kill people.
And people without religion kill people.

PeterSibley
07-14-2014, 10:40 PM
In summary religious people kill

and non religious people kill.

Surprise surprise.

Barry
07-14-2014, 10:47 PM
Nope, it was Zoroastrianism
And you general question is not factual.

The general question is not factual. But Zoroastrianism was\is not a monotheistic world view.
The Gods Ahriman and Ahurumazda were equals. One possessed the Day(GOOD) and one possessed the Night(Bad/Evil).

Nicholas Carey
07-14-2014, 10:54 PM
The Jewish religion was the first religion in the area that believed in a single God.
This made it unique and I can see how some would convert.

Ummm...not quite. Try Zoroastrianism (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrian). Predates Judaism. Still going.

- Monotheistic? check.
- Dichotomy between good and evil? check.
- Heaven v. hell? check.

Great burial practices, too, especially for a desert people: put the corpse at the top of a tower and let the vultures have at it. Nice and sanitary.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

PeterSibley
07-14-2014, 10:54 PM
Abraxas ... all in one .







Abraxas
Abraxas is the name given by some of the early Gnostic Christians to denote the embodied form of God. In the language of the Gnosticism, God in the true sense is called the 'Pleroma', which means fullness. So Pleroma would correspond with Brahman in Hinduism, Ein Sof in Jewish Kabbalah and the Tao of Taoism etc. All these terms are referring to God in the unknowable sense, the God is beyond concept and beyond imagining. The God that is the source of all being and the ground of all existence, so God in the true meaning of the word. Now, if God were to manifest in the temporal realm then we will have something that we can conceptualize and label. For the Gnostics the label for this phenomenon was Abraxas.The origins of the God Abraxas are mysterious though it is believed the concept existed in ancient Egypt. It is thought that Abraxas was then adopted by Jewish mystics and then later by the Gnostic Christians. So Abraxas has a long history in the esoteric circles of the Mediterranean and near East.Abraxas is a conception of God that incorporates both Good and Evil in one entity. So in Gnostic terms he is both God and Demiurge. He represents a mono-theistic God but at the same time he is quite different from the omni-benevolent God found in later Christianity. In his depiction he has a Roosters head, a mans torso and two snakes for legs. Also he is often shown carrying a shield and a whip. The shield represents protective wisdom and the whip driving power. The roosters head symbolizes wakeful vigilance and the announcement of a new dawn. The snakes may be considered symbolic of the Goddess, it is an animal closely associated with Isis and Demeter, two important conceptions of the Goddess in antiquity. Also the snake in India represents the Shakti or female energy which is thought of as a sleeping serpent lying dormant within all of us. In this way Abraxas would truly be a juxtaposition of the fundamental polar opposites of Female and Male and as described earlier the combining of Good and Evil.The image of Abraxas was often used to decorate good luck charms, seals and amulets in antiquity. These ancient Abraxas artifacts were quite common and many still exist today in museums and private collections. Later on in history, the order of the Knights Templar put the image of Abraxas on their most important seals which was used to bind the most secret documents.

Nanoose
07-14-2014, 11:08 PM
Ummm...not quite. Try Zoroastrianism (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrian). Predates Judaism.


Predates? Your link, and other articles, say Z began in the 6C BCE. That does not predate Judaism.

htom
07-15-2014, 12:42 AM
The pre-history of most religions is fertile ground for long discussions (and I'd argue that most derive from the Chinese folk religions of the Xia Dynasty, although their kinship is hard to trace.)

I think what attracts people, in general, to Islam (from a religion outside of it) is the notion that Allah wills what happens in the world, misunderstanding His omniscience (knowing what we will choose with free will) for predestination (our choice is pre-determined): if you don't succeed, Allah didn't want you to or didn't allow it, and so you are not responsible for your failures.

It would be comforting to know it wasn't my fault; but it was. Sometimes it sucks to be merely human.

isla
07-15-2014, 03:51 AM
I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with Yusuf Islam joining in the call to kill Salman Rushdie. I don't hold Rushdie in any high regard, but to kill a man because he ridiculed the prophet is unacceptable.I agree, mainly because I'm an atheist and I think the whole religion thing sucks.

PeterSibley
07-15-2014, 04:00 AM
Which leads us to ask why nation states feel perfectly free to kill the citizens of other countries by the tens of thousand in order to steal their resources. No religion involved .

Osborne Russell
07-15-2014, 09:34 AM
Which leads us to ask why nation states feel perfectly free to kill the citizens of other countries by the tens of thousand in order to steal their resources. No religion involved .

Depends how you look at it. I say the wars are the religion. When did anyone ever say, "We're going to war, and it doesn't matter if it violates our religion?" A positive statement is required for recruiting and morale.

TomF
07-15-2014, 09:41 AM
Depends how you look at it. I say the wars are the religion. When did anyone ever say, "We're going to war, and it doesn't matter if it violates our religion?" A positive statement is required for recruiting and morale.My Country Right or Wrong rather explicitly trumps any other location of moral values, eh?

I think some versions of patriotism are secular religions; war just becomes one of the rituals.

Rum_Pirate
07-15-2014, 02:34 PM
I am not sure what attracts people to Islam, but it appears that the 'fanatic minority' are sure screwing up things for the majority.

Horace
07-15-2014, 02:38 PM
I am not sure what attracts people to Islam....Yeah, genglandoh never did get any traction with his OP....

Osborne Russell
07-15-2014, 02:53 PM
My Country Right or Wrong rather explicitly trumps any other location of moral values, eh?

I think some versions of patriotism are secular religions; war just becomes one of the rituals.

Yep. Patriotism in the largest sense.

What people ever said, God actually made another tribe superior, but we're going to dominate anyway?

isla
07-15-2014, 05:36 PM
Yeah, genglandoh never did get any traction with his OP.... Well I did provide a link in #152 to Yusuf Islam's explanation of why/how he converted. But there are several reasons why the OP was never properly answered...
1) None of us (except Syed) is a Muslim, or has studied, or converted to Islam, so we just don't have enough information to provide an answer.
2) As soon as somebody suggested that Islam is a noble religion, the thread drifted into a 'tis, 'tis not, kind of argument.
3) In typical geng fashion, he wasn't really looking for an answer, he was just trolling to provoke exactly the kind of heated discussion that the thread became.

So, if geng really wants an answer, he's asking the wrong crowd. There are plenty of sites online where you can learn things about Islam that Fox News, or Breitbart, or this forum, will/can never tell you.

wardd
07-15-2014, 05:42 PM
I am not sure what attracts people to Islam, but it appears that the 'fanatic minority' are sure screwing up things for the majority.

you mean westboro baptist church?

Syed
07-16-2014, 03:04 AM
Well I did provide a link in #152 to Yusuf Islam's explanation of why/how he converted. But there are several reasons why the OP was never properly answered...
1) None of us (except Syed) is a Muslim, or has studied, or converted to Islam, so we just don't have enough information to provide an answer.
2) As soon as somebody suggested that Islam is a noble religion, the thread drifted into a 'tis, 'tis not, kind of argument.
3) In typical geng fashion, he wasn't really looking for an answer, he was just trolling to provoke exactly the kind of heated discussion that the thread became.

So, if geng really wants an answer, he's asking the wrong crowd. There are plenty of sites online where you can learn things about Islam that Fox News, or Breitbart, or this forum, will/can never tell you.
Absolutely spot on!

Rum_Pirate
07-16-2014, 08:27 AM
you mean westboro baptist church?


I would suggest that while that church with the now dead pastor was probably part of the fanatical minority, I do not recall them him inciting 'death to non-believers' and violence against non-believers or supporting suicide bombers (includes people of the same faith) or aircraft hijacking terrorists etc like many of the religious leaders of a certain religion.

I do understand that they (westboro baptist church) carried out protests, but not murders.

Perhaps you could correct me on this understanding if it is not correct.

isla
07-16-2014, 10:29 AM
I would suggest that while that church with the now dead pastor was probably part of the fanatical minority, I do not recall them him inciting 'death to non-believers' and violence against non-believers or supporting suicide bombers (includes people of the same faith) or aircraft hijacking terrorists etc like many of the religious leaders of a certain religion.

I do understand that they (westboro baptist church) carried out protests, but not murders.

Perhaps you could correct me on this understanding if it is not correct.Is this good enough for ya? They didn't have the guts to kill US soldiers themselves, they just turned up at funerals to mock the bereaved families, and prayed to God to kill soldiers for them.


http://www.orbsbooks.co.uk/images/wb1.jpg http://www.orbsbooks.co.uk/images/wb2.jpg

Lew Barrett
07-16-2014, 01:38 PM
A model of love and compassion, who could get any but a kindly message from Westboro?

Westboro (http://www.godhatesfags.com/)


On April 15, 2013, the church posted a press release to its Twitter account in which it thanked God for that day's Boston Marathon bombings, and announced its plan to "picket the funeral of those killed". Pointing out that the federal government is classifying the bombings as a terrorist attack, yet is being unclear about whether it is of a "domestic or foreign nature", the release went on to claim to answer the question with, "Here's a hint — GOD SENT THE BOMBS! How many more terrifying ways will you have the LORD injure and kill your fellow countrymen because you insist on nation-dooming filthy fag marriage?!"


Clearly a love fest.

Lew Barrett
07-16-2014, 01:41 PM
Would you, Mr. Pirate, condemn all Christians as terrorists and murderers because any number of groups incorporating the word "Christian" and teachings of Jesus in their screed also happen to be terrorists?

List of Christian terrorist groups. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism)

Rum_Pirate
07-16-2014, 02:43 PM
Would you, Mr. Pirate, condemn all Christians as terrorists and murderers because any number of groups incorporating the word "Christian" and teachings of Jesus in their screed also happen to be terrorists?

List of Christian terrorist groups. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism)

No I don't condemn all Christians as terrorists and murderers because any number of groups incorporating the word "Christian" and teachings of Jesus in their screed.

However, taking about christians, I would condemn all those Christians that do not condemn the number of groups incorporating the word "Christian" and teachings of Jesus in their screed that indulge in terrorism, thus pretending, purporting or that actually are christian.

I condemn the terrorism regardless of who does it.
I also condemn those that do not condemn terrorism.

How about you, are you of a similar view? If not what?

Rum_Pirate
07-16-2014, 02:47 PM
Is this good enough for ya? They didn't have the guts to kill US soldiers themselves, they just turned up at funerals to mock the bereaved families, and prayed to God to kill soldiers for them.


http://www.orbsbooks.co.uk/images/wb1.jpg http://www.orbsbooks.co.uk/images/wb2.jpg

I condemn them and these below as well. Did those church officers priests/etc incite murder etc. YES/NO

Who do you think are the more violent and dangerous?

http://chersonandmolschky.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/London+Muslims+protest+against+a+cartoon+in+a+Dani sh+newspaper+that+depicts+prophet+Mohammed+in+a+bo mb-shaped+turban.jpg http://asiseeitnow.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/london-muslim-protest-5.png

wardd
07-16-2014, 02:50 PM
guess what mr pirate i don't spend a lot of time condemning terrorists of any stripe, nor do i spend any time condoning terrorism

Rum_Pirate
07-16-2014, 03:04 PM
guess what mr pirate i don't spend a lot of time condemning terrorists of any stripe, nor do i spend any time condoning terrorism

Your prerogative.

no doubt you sleep well on the basis "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_orwell.html)

So in the little time you spend what do you do? :rolleyes:



Nevertheless, I do recall

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.', allegedly by Edmund Burke.

bobbys
07-16-2014, 03:57 PM
Is this good enough for ya? They didn't have the guts to kill US soldiers themselves, they just turned up at funerals to mock the bereaved families, and prayed to God to kill soldiers for them.


http://www.orbsbooks.co.uk/images/wb1.jpg http://www.orbsbooks.co.uk/images/wb2.jpg.




Fred Phelps


Born Fred Waldron Phelps
November 13, 1929
Meridian, Mississippi, U.S.
Died March 19, 2014 (aged 84)
Topeka, Kansas, U.S.
Cause of death
Natural causes
Education
Associate's degree, John Muir College, 1951
Law degree, Washburn University, 1964
Religion Primitive Baptist[1]
Spouse(s) Margie Marie Simms (1952–2014; his death)
Children 13, including
Shirley Phelps-Roper
Nathan Phelps
Relatives 54 grandchildren
Church Westboro Baptist Church
Fred Waldron Phelps, Sr. (November 13, 1929 – March 19, 2014) was an American pastor who headed the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC), an independent Baptist church based in Topeka, Kansas. Phelps attained notoriety primarily from his vehemently anti-gay activism and his picketing of funerals of homosexuals and soldiers.


Phelps was a disbarred lawyer, founder of the Phelps Chartered law firm, and a former civil rights activist. He sought public office four times as a member of the Democratic Party. In the election for United States Senator for Kansas in 1992, he received 49,416 votes (30.8%), coming in second after Gloria O'Dell (who subsequently lost to later presidential candidate Bob Dole).

bobbys
07-16-2014, 04:10 PM
I condemn them and these below as well. Did those church officers priests/etc incite murder etc. YES/NO

Who do you think are the more violent and dangerous?

http://chersonandmolschky.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/London+Muslims+protest+against+a+cartoon+in+a+Dani sh+newspaper+that+depicts+prophet+Mohammed+in+a+bo mb-shaped+turban.jpg http://asiseeitnow.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/london-muslim-protest-5.png.

no sense comparing Westboro to anything, It is a "religion" set up by liberal democrats to mock baptists.

See the lengths some of them will go to as they hate.

As I posted Fred phelps is or was a democrat...

He started it to make baptists look bad no matter the cost to him and his family.

They are like suicide people..

his whole reason was to trick people like isla which he did.

Lew Barrett
07-16-2014, 06:36 PM
Your prerogative.

no doubt you sleep well on the basis "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_orwell.html)

So in the little time you spend what do you do? :rolleyes:



Nevertheless, I do recall

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.', allegedly by Edmund Burke.



Talk is cheap. Apart from your condemnation on these pages, what have you done to halt terrorism lately?

By the way, I have condemned terrorists six times today, three times to my wife, twice to my dog, and once to you.
I hate those pesky terrorists. There!

Rum_Pirate
07-16-2014, 07:47 PM
Talk is cheap. Apart from your condemnation on these pages, what have you done to halt terrorism lately?

By the way, I have condemned terrorists six times today, three times to my wife, twice to my dog, and once to you.
I hate those pesky terrorists. There!


Well consider this. If everyone worldwide that is against terrorists, regardless of religion/race/etc, publicly voiced their concern and condemnation of such action, on all formats, then governments, religious leaders and others may act, then the fanatic minority may not feel so bold and their actions may very well be reduced (they will never stop).

Consider the the action of the USA against Putin.

Lew Barrett
07-16-2014, 11:53 PM
Well consider this. If everyone worldwide that is against terrorists, regardless of religion/race/etc, publicly voiced their concern and condemnation of such action, on all formats, then governments, religious leaders and others may act, then the fanatic minority may not feel so bold and their actions may very well be reduced (they will never stop).

Consider the the action of the USA against Putin.

The voicing of opinions against terrorism is virtually non stop, and there's not a soul on this forum who finds random acts of violence against innocent people by whosoever authors them remotely engaging or useful. But this thread isn't about speaking out against terrorism wherever it is found. As Isla and others have already pointed out, it's about tarring Muslim extremists and all other Muslims with a sticky brush.

If it was just about violence and the misery created by terrorists within their own own sphere, surely we'd have had a thread about, say the Janjaweed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janjaweed) Nobody cares what happens in Darfur or Chad, so no attention is paid to that form of violence. Just speaking is not enough.

It's excellent practice to be well informed, and discussions help make us aware of things beyond our immediate
knowledge. Yet the idea that simply speaking out is sufficient and that by doing so here one somehow exerts moral superiority and authority, well, that's just hokum. I guess it is at one level better than nothing. But if we opt to speak out, it's best to do so from a well informed stance. To be informed, one has to examine the problem with some objectivity.

That has been notably lacking on the part of the "Islam is a religion of the sword" crowd here. Frankly, I suspect neither you nor I have done anything positive today to help the situation beyond flapping our gums. There's more than enough of that to go around. I'll be frank. Terrorism only captures interest and response when it threatens our interests. If we really cared about it, we'd help the situation in Darfur. But Darfur has nothing of consequence for us so it's not worth getting involved in a sticky situation just to protect a few million farmers.

It's easier to brand Islam as a vile institution and go after the boys that threaten our "national interests." The ones that put gas in the tank. If you want to talk about something that bears on the problem directly let's talk about how Iraq came to have a bunch of straight lines for borders.

PeterSibley
07-16-2014, 11:59 PM
Consider the the action of the USA
.

On the subject of terror that might be a conversation the USA might not enjoy.

isla
07-17-2014, 04:35 AM
.

no sense comparing Westboro to anything, It is a "religion" set up by liberal democrats to mock baptists.

See the lengths some of them will go to as they hate.

As I posted Fred phelps is or was a democrat...

He started it to make baptists look bad no matter the cost to him and his family.

They are like suicide people..

his whole reason was to trick people like isla which he did.Er, OK. Whatever you say dude.

PeterSibley
07-17-2014, 04:58 AM
Dat bobby, he smart .

Peerie Maa
07-17-2014, 09:07 AM
No I don't condemn all Christians as terrorists and murderers because any number of groups incorporating the word "Christian" and teachings of Jesus in their screed.

However, taking about christians, I would condemn all those Christians that do not condemn the number of groups incorporating the word "Christian" and teachings of Jesus in their screed that indulge in terrorism, thus pretending, purporting or that actually are christian.

I condemn the terrorism regardless of who does it.
I also condemn those that do not condemn terrorism.

How about you, are you of a similar view? If not what?

OK, please show us all of the posts where you spontaneously condemned terrorism, and a list of letters that you have written to the media to do so.

Lew Barrett
07-17-2014, 09:12 AM
OK, please show us all of the posts where you spontaneously condemned terrorism, and a list of letters that you have written to the media to do so.

Thank you.

Rum_Pirate
07-17-2014, 11:41 AM
OK, please show us all of the posts where you spontaneously condemned terrorism, and a list of letters that you have written to the media to do so.


I have been banned on another forum for declaring my opposition to terrorism and condemnation of terrorists.

I have posted in the comment sections on various news media websites of my condemnation. You don't get copies from them.

The most recent condemnation is post #191 in this very thread. Please review through my post history to see the rest if you are so inclined.

Others here have been seemingly steadfast in the defence of certain elements that have terrorism with in them

Peerie Maa
07-17-2014, 11:57 AM
I have been banned on another forum for declaring my opposition to terrorism and condemnation of terrorists.

I have posted in the comment sections on various news media websites of my condemnation. You don't get copies from them.

The most recent condemnation is post #191 in this very thread. Please review through my post history to see the rest if you are so inclined.

Others here have been seemingly steadfast in the defence of certain elements that have terrorism with in them

Well that is a start, but I actually asked whether you posted against terrorism spontaneously, e.g. started threads or blogs yourself, rather than joining in an existing thread or discussion.
Which was the forum that banned you? It sounds as though you might be better off without it.

Rum_Pirate
07-17-2014, 12:13 PM
Well that is a start, but I actually asked whether you posted against terrorism spontaneously, e.g. started threads or blogs yourself, rather than joining in an existing thread or discussion.
Which was the forum that banned you? It sounds as though you might be better off without it.

It doesn't matter. What matters that more and more of us speak out louder against those that practice terrorism.

However most people will not say anything (leave it for others to do) as it is not considered 'politically correct'.

Peerie Maa
07-17-2014, 01:01 PM
It doesn't matter. What matters that more and more of us speak out louder against those that practice terrorism.

However most people will not say anything (leave it for others to do) as it is not considered 'politically correct'.

I think that you are wrong in your assumption. There are some people who will always speak out about what is important to them. Speakers Corner is a venue much used for that. However the vast majority don't wish to, don't have the extrovert personality that would allow them to shout out about it. That is normal and not to be condemned.

Political correctness has nothing what ever to do with condemning violence of any sort.

Lew Barrett
07-17-2014, 01:41 PM
However most people will not say anything (leave it for others to do) as it is not considered 'politically correct'.

Your awesome contributions are noted. We're awfully proud of your courageous stance against terrorists the world over. Keep on posting!

http://saacboc.caius.name/typing.gif

Rum_Pirate
07-17-2014, 01:47 PM
Your awesome contributions are noted. We're awfully proud of your courageous stance against terrorists the world over. Keep on posting!


We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us.…. ..

Take care and don't let the keyboard get the better of you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGK-f_rnVsE

Lew Barrett
07-17-2014, 02:56 PM
Glad you liked the gif well enough to emulate it;)

bobbys
07-17-2014, 04:17 PM
keep the stick man outta this!

Dannybb55
10-01-2014, 05:09 PM
Religions appear to explain the unexplainable and raise money for large organizations who want to wield enormous power accross international borders. Since reason and the scientific method have proven better able to explain the complicated questions about the universe around us, all of these little religions are obsolete and have been for centuries.

PeterSibley
10-01-2014, 05:12 PM
What attracts people to Islam?
Mother's milk.

ahp
10-01-2014, 06:58 PM
Nope, it was Zoroastrianism
And you general question is not factual.

Wrong. Zoroastrianism had two gods, Ahura-Mazda, the god of good and light, and Ahriman, the god of darkness and evil. Is anyone here old enough to remember General Electric Mazda light bulbs?

S.V. Airlie
10-01-2014, 07:50 PM
It's the green grass on the other side of the fence!