Xynole or Vectra cloth

[Dan Lindberg]

Has anybody used/experimented with using either Xynole or Vectra in their boats to increase abrasion resistance?

If so, any thoughts/problems/heads up for it?

Both of these cloths appear to have straight, extruded fibers like glass and wet out similar to glass, though not as clear. Vectra is polypropylene, and I "think" Xynole is polyester. Both seem to be much tougher then glass, at least on "backyard" tests.

Dan

[TimothyB]

Reuel Parker swears by Xynole for abrasion resistance. Yes, it is polyester.

--T

[Bill Perkins]

I used Xynole on my boat after Mr. Parker's recommendation . The cloth conforms very well to tight radii. He mentioned that he's sheathed lapstrake planking with it .I just sheathed the bottom and garboards.

The cloth uses up allot of resin .A double layer of 4oz. cloth on my 24 ft. by 7 ft. boat required 8 gallons .It wets out more easily than glass, and there's no itching .I bought mine from Raka , but I think Defender has it .

[ 12-04-2004, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

"Tougher" is a pretty broad concept. Be sure you also consider such things as laminate stiffness, which is one thing which can make these fabrics less than ideal for some purposes.

[Dan Lindberg]

Thanks Guys,

I'm considering it for only on the outside in the "football" region of a stripper canoe for abrasion resistance.

I'd also cover it with a light layer (2 oz) of glass to manage the fuzzing.

Bill, I'm surprized at the amount of resin you used. On my test patch it wet out very much like glass, and didn't need noticably more resin. Are you sure you had Xynol, the stuff I got has straight extruded fibers, just like glass. The Dynol and Olifin have twisted fibers and they took much more resin to wet out.

The Vectra also has the straight extruded fibers, except it's polypropylene.

Dan

[RodB]

THis has been covered in the past with plenty of data from tests done by Tom Lathrop. Do a search on Xynole and you should find it.

There was a study done my Geougan Brothers or the decks of the Ticonderoga and several variations of many fabrics were tested. This has all been posted before.

I covered the entire bottom of my 18 foot skiff with Xynole and found it very easy to use and it results in quite an epoxy barrier on the bottom. If you cover the fabric appropriately with epoxy you won't have to worry about the fuzzys. I applied two coats of plain epoxy, let cure overnight and while still a little soft used a Surefoam plane tool to knock off all hard "nubs". I then continued with a couple more coats and had no fabric that was not covered with enough epoxy to allow for sanding. I also applied two layers of graphite mixed in epoxy as the final coatings, which gives a real tough slick finish that never needs painting. Email me if you want more details on eliminating the fuzzies.

Don't quote me, but the Xynole is approx 8 times more abrasion resisant than 6 oz fiberglass cloth. The study shows lots of groupings of one, two or three cloths such as fiberglass and Xynole, two layers of Dynel, Two layers of Xynole, Vectra and Xynole, etc, etc... I have a copy somewhere but I would have to dig it out. I think a good synopsis has been posted before.

I decided that one layer of Xynole gave me plenty of protection without lots of overkill. Parker says that one layer of Xynole is fine for boats for normal use, but hard use should have double layers below the waterline. These comments were referring to sailboats in the 25-35 foot range. AS long as fiberglass is not necessary as part of the structure like in strip-planking for example. (ie., plays an integral part in the scantling strength) then Xynole can be used.. As long as you are just sheathing, Xynole is great and a much better sheath than fiberglass. It offers significantly better impact resistance and tremendously better abrasion resistance.

From my homework, Xynole is the best choice unless you have lots of money and need the ultimate strength and go for Kevlar.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid70/pa6b4646b15dcf87bef81b2bb74b4a173/fba28789.jpg
RB

[ 12-03-2004, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Dan Lindberg]

Now I'm getting concerned.
I read some of the previous posts and amoung other statements is:

"Xynole (best) and Dynel (worse) both have the same physical appearance and feel to them."

Now I'm wondering if Defender mixed up the labels on my samples.

The "Xynole" I got is 4 oz and looks very similar to both glass and Vectra, meaning that the fibers are straight and not twisted.

The Dynel and Olifin look very much the same, both with twisted fibers, and both of these did take large amounts of resin to wet out.

This is for a strip canoe with an intended weight of under 50 lbs so whatever goes on can't take up a lot of resin.

Can anybody tell from my descriptions which fabric is which?

Thanks,
Dan

[chucksw]

See this site

http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm#synanch

[Dan Lindberg]

From those pics I'd say the labels were switched.

thanks,
Dan

[Bill Perkins]

Dan I built a strip canoe some years ago and used a slurry of West aluminum powder and epoxy for abrasion resistance on the bottom .This is what Mac Mccarty recommended .It was possible to tape off a neat football shape by following a line of planking .After the glop was on the tape was pulled and I had a clean line .

The Xynole is a loose weave and doesn't cut very cleanly when dry .You'll have trouble precutting a neat football and then just sticking it on .If you wet it out over a taped perimeter and then cut to the tape line with a razor blade , which works well , you'll cut into the structural sheath of the canoe. I think the aluminum slurry makes a neater job ,and it's plenty tough .

[alteran]

I have done what Bill recommends except I used graphite mixed with epoxy and a little 404 or 406.

Makes a nice slippery abrasion resistent black bottom. As Bill said its easy to do and easy to get a nice crisp line at the edge.

[Tom Lathrop]

What Rod said.

I expect that you are not looking a Xynole because its fibers are just as fuzzy as Dynel and not at all straight filaments as in glass or polypropylene (Vectra). I don't know what Olefin is.

Xynole will take a lot of resin (weight) and I'd not recommend it for light kayaks except in high wear areas. I find Dynel to be too weak for my use and can't think of any reason to prefer it to Xynole. What I mean by weak is that if you try to peel it from plywood, it just breaks apart easily.

[RodB]

What Tom said...

Also I can say that Xynole has a flat finish and reminds me of gauze except for being much thicker in the strands.

It doesn't cut easy and I think Tom cuts it with a hot knife, I just used sissors with some difficulty.

RB

[Tom Lathrop]

I should have added that canoe/kayak supply sources sell both a Kevlar tape and a Kevlar/epoxy paste that is intended for use on high wear spots like the keel. This is probably Dan's best bet for effectiveness and light weight.

For those with further interest in abrasion resistant sheath fabics, I can send the full article on testing by e-mail.

[Bill Perkins]

The Kevlar paste sounds interesting , tho if it looks like plastic barf I'd be reluctant to use it on a varnished strip canoe .Those boats give allot of aesthetic pleasure when they're out of the water bottom up .The aluminum looks like dull pewter, which is not too bad .I've heard of people using powdered copper ,which I'd like to get a look at .

[Brian Cady]

Bill Perkins, powdered copper ought to repel marine fouling organisms permanently, as would a layer of copper electroplated onto a hull over a conductive layer; as in a conductive paint, or graphite cloth (or maybe that graphite-in-epoxy?)

Brian Cady

[Dan Lindberg]

Thanks for the responses and info guys,

Yes, I'm now sure that D switched the labels on the samples in got. The Dynal/Xynole both took way too much resin so tey are out.

The Vectra and Olefin look very similar, ie, straight extruded fibers and wet out like glass, with one being a bit more clear then the other.

Both V and O appear to be stronger and tougher then glass, at least with my samples. The fibers take more force to break and it's much harder to push a sharp object through the V/O then the glass.

All of these samples are 4 oz dry and layed up on a piece of 4 oz glass, no wood backing.

As for the various additives to put in the resin, yes, I'm aware of them, just not quit there yet, still hoping for a reasonably clear layup. I think I'll try a few more samples on strips just to see how it looks before deciding.

Thanks again,
Dan

[alteran]

If you want to see a graphite or aluminum bottom boat it should be easy to find one around the cities. Al at NW Canoe in Minneapolis could point you to one. He sells supplies you might need also.
Good guy for info as well although he is a little set in his ways. smile.gif

[Todd Bradshaw]

Just what are you planning on hitting with this boat? Other than a couple very localized spots on the lower stems, strippers seldom get abraded down through the filler coats and far enough into the cloth to need anything other than fiberglass fabric. They also don't usually get enough impact damage to bother with other fabrics and I doubt the higher tear strength of these fabrics will ever even come into the equation because the core strength and sheer strength of the glass/wood bond will then be the weak points of the construction.

It doesn't make sense to build a beautiful boat and then never maintain it or purposely beat it to death. If you're trying to build a wood-strip-whitewater playboat, I could maybe see using some other fabrics, but for normal recreational canoeing and tripping, fiberglass and epoxy works awfully well and I'm not the least bit convinced that you're gaining anything over the standard constructions.

[Dan Lindberg]

Hi Todd,

What do I plan to hit? Hopefully nothing, but I know better, even when "wet-footing" it contact is made with the rocks, and eventually the rocks always win. smile.gif

As to whether the "standard" layout is strong enough or not, I don't know.

When I was researching strippers, before I built my 1st, most of the folks I talked to suffered one kind of damage or another, ranging from simple scrapes on the bottom to tears on the bottom to tears on the inside.

I figure that if I'm going to build another, I might as well try to learn something new too.

With this said, I don't want to get to carried away with it either, and end up with a heavy boat. But if the addition of a single layer of 4 oz material to the bottom can significantly increase it's durability, why not? As long as there aren't other problems created.

Dan

[Todd Bradshaw]

It's those pesky "other problems" that worry me - like the fact that these fabrics don't usually turn anywhere near as clear as the glass, or the fact that synthetic/fiberglass mixes are quite often much more prone to delaminating between layers upon impact than all glass layups - or the fact that strippers don't flex much and can't without breaking the core. I doubt this hull will ever bend enough to take advantage of the higher tear strength unless it's after the core has already broken and they're bridging the crack simply holding the boat together (which is often the purpose of mixing these fabrics into whitewater layups). Then there is the "fuzz-factor". Glass may wear away, but at least it wears away cleanly (ask Mad River why their premium Kevlar canoes actually have a layer of fiberglass cloth on the outside?).

I'm not saying that it can't work, but I'm not sure it will work better or even as well as a couple layers of 6 oz. cloth with brass stem bands or a couple slivers of Kevlar felt on the lower stems for abrasion. My gut tells me that you may be trading some potential weaknesses for some genuine ones.

[George Roberts]

Dan Lindberg ---

I think I posted the results of my tests in a previous thread here.

Both are very open weaves and require so much resin that glass is a better choice.

[Dan Lindberg]

Todd,

You're right and yes, I'm also worried about all these unknowns, that's why I posted the message hoping that if others had tried it and had problems they would be related.

At this point I haven't decided whether to try it or not. Seems like most of the experience here is with the other fabrics in much heavier layups.

George, thanks, I'll do a search for the post and review your data. I'm also concerned about how much resin it takes to wet out and am a firm believer in tight weaves. And in fact , based on your "doctrine", my last canoe was multiple layers of 2 oz glass, and the hard part was putting on little enough resin to not float the fabric.

Dan