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woodbutch
03-02-2001, 12:41 PM
Has anyone here made a number of Trenails?

If so, how did you do it?

Start with a big tree and ..............?

woodbutch
03-02-2001, 12:41 PM
Has anyone here made a number of Trenails?

If so, how did you do it?

Start with a big tree and ..............?

woodbutch
03-02-2001, 12:41 PM
Has anyone here made a number of Trenails?

If so, how did you do it?

Start with a big tree and ..............?

Eb
03-02-2001, 01:05 PM
Cut the knot and crotch free part of your big tree into sections a bit longer than the trunnel you want (or two X the length), split them down to slightly larger diameter than you want, start them in a hole drilled in a piece of plate steel that is the size you want and whack them through with a big hammer. You end up with a pile of trunnels, a pile of kindling, and sometimes a smashed thumb.

Eb

Eb
03-02-2001, 01:05 PM
Cut the knot and crotch free part of your big tree into sections a bit longer than the trunnel you want (or two X the length), split them down to slightly larger diameter than you want, start them in a hole drilled in a piece of plate steel that is the size you want and whack them through with a big hammer. You end up with a pile of trunnels, a pile of kindling, and sometimes a smashed thumb.

Eb

Eb
03-02-2001, 01:05 PM
Cut the knot and crotch free part of your big tree into sections a bit longer than the trunnel you want (or two X the length), split them down to slightly larger diameter than you want, start them in a hole drilled in a piece of plate steel that is the size you want and whack them through with a big hammer. You end up with a pile of trunnels, a pile of kindling, and sometimes a smashed thumb.

Eb

Ian McColgin
03-02-2001, 02:45 PM
I use locust.

I set them with epoxy both as a lubricant on the way in and to seal and bond, so there's no need for a blind wedge on the inside and pounded wedge on outside.

Easiest way to make them is to rip out square section lengths. Score a shallow groove down the middle of one face. This will act as a relieving space for the excess epoxy.

Next step is rounding it down. I used to have a steel plate with some graduated holes to ram it through. Cleek told me of poppping it through a tube - works great. Sharpen the circumferance at one end.

G'luck

Ian McColgin
03-02-2001, 02:45 PM
I use locust.

I set them with epoxy both as a lubricant on the way in and to seal and bond, so there's no need for a blind wedge on the inside and pounded wedge on outside.

Easiest way to make them is to rip out square section lengths. Score a shallow groove down the middle of one face. This will act as a relieving space for the excess epoxy.

Next step is rounding it down. I used to have a steel plate with some graduated holes to ram it through. Cleek told me of poppping it through a tube - works great. Sharpen the circumferance at one end.

G'luck

Ian McColgin
03-02-2001, 02:45 PM
I use locust.

I set them with epoxy both as a lubricant on the way in and to seal and bond, so there's no need for a blind wedge on the inside and pounded wedge on outside.

Easiest way to make them is to rip out square section lengths. Score a shallow groove down the middle of one face. This will act as a relieving space for the excess epoxy.

Next step is rounding it down. I used to have a steel plate with some graduated holes to ram it through. Cleek told me of poppping it through a tube - works great. Sharpen the circumferance at one end.

G'luck

Dave Fleming
03-02-2001, 08:32 PM
I have made a fair number of trunnels from time to time. The most at one time was over 200.
My procedure was to:
1: go up to Essex, Conn., to the timber lot of one E.Dudley Bartlett and purchase a nice load of winter cut White Oak.
2: scrounge around for a lathe, wound up with a commutator lathe. No I don't know that a commutator is/was but the lathe was all cast iron and has sufficient distance between centers to turn the largest trunnel I calculated I would need.
3: start ripping to square and then start turning. Revelation...lathe chisels took way to goddamn long!
4: went to the local hardware store, days before 'the Borg' donch'a know, and buy a couple of Stanley surform tools and extra blades.
5: turned the trunnels in about 12 hours of on and off work.
6: bagged the chips and let son peddle bags of oak chips to neighbors with barbeques.
7: set up method for seasoning the trunnels.
8: cut wedges out of rippings for wedgeing
9: drilled, set and wedged trunels.
see the photos at my Imagestation album under, barn in New Jersey.
ps: others might be of some chuckles too.
Barn Restoration (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291954233)

[ 12-26-2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

Dave Fleming
03-02-2001, 08:32 PM
I have made a fair number of trunnels from time to time. The most at one time was over 200.
My procedure was to:
1: go up to Essex, Conn., to the timber lot of one E.Dudley Bartlett and purchase a nice load of winter cut White Oak.
2: scrounge around for a lathe, wound up with a commutator lathe. No I don't know that a commutator is/was but the lathe was all cast iron and has sufficient distance between centers to turn the largest trunnel I calculated I would need.
3: start ripping to square and then start turning. Revelation...lathe chisels took way to goddamn long!
4: went to the local hardware store, days before 'the Borg' donch'a know, and buy a couple of Stanley surform tools and extra blades.
5: turned the trunnels in about 12 hours of on and off work.
6: bagged the chips and let son peddle bags of oak chips to neighbors with barbeques.
7: set up method for seasoning the trunnels.
8: cut wedges out of rippings for wedgeing
9: drilled, set and wedged trunels.
see the photos at my Imagestation album under, barn in New Jersey.
ps: others might be of some chuckles too.
Barn Restoration (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291954233)

[ 12-26-2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

Dave Fleming
03-02-2001, 08:32 PM
I have made a fair number of trunnels from time to time. The most at one time was over 200.
My procedure was to:
1: go up to Essex, Conn., to the timber lot of one E.Dudley Bartlett and purchase a nice load of winter cut White Oak.
2: scrounge around for a lathe, wound up with a commutator lathe. No I don't know that a commutator is/was but the lathe was all cast iron and has sufficient distance between centers to turn the largest trunnel I calculated I would need.
3: start ripping to square and then start turning. Revelation...lathe chisels took way to goddamn long!
4: went to the local hardware store, days before 'the Borg' donch'a know, and buy a couple of Stanley surform tools and extra blades.
5: turned the trunnels in about 12 hours of on and off work.
6: bagged the chips and let son peddle bags of oak chips to neighbors with barbeques.
7: set up method for seasoning the trunnels.
8: cut wedges out of rippings for wedgeing
9: drilled, set and wedged trunels.
see the photos at my Imagestation album under, barn in New Jersey.
ps: others might be of some chuckles too.
Barn Restoration (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291954233)

[ 12-26-2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

ROWE BOATS
03-04-2001, 11:34 AM
My crew and I made around 5000 trunnels for a 70 foot sailing barge about 20 yrs ago. The trunnels were an inch and a quarter in diameter and about 16 inches long made of locust, which I believe is the best wood for the job. We ripped the locust into slightly oversized squares and turned them on a trunnel lathe. Now I'm sure you don't have a trunnel lathe, but you can overcome that by modifying any lathe to do the job. First you need a head stock that you can plug the end of the trunnel stock in the you need to make a hollow auger for the tail stock. Plug the trunnel stock into the head then pull the tail stock with the hollow auger along the lathe bed ways toward the head stock. Voila, a trunnel in about five seconds.Make the hollow auger so that you can adjust the diameter slightly. The trunnels should drive hard.

ROWE BOATS
03-04-2001, 11:34 AM
My crew and I made around 5000 trunnels for a 70 foot sailing barge about 20 yrs ago. The trunnels were an inch and a quarter in diameter and about 16 inches long made of locust, which I believe is the best wood for the job. We ripped the locust into slightly oversized squares and turned them on a trunnel lathe. Now I'm sure you don't have a trunnel lathe, but you can overcome that by modifying any lathe to do the job. First you need a head stock that you can plug the end of the trunnel stock in the you need to make a hollow auger for the tail stock. Plug the trunnel stock into the head then pull the tail stock with the hollow auger along the lathe bed ways toward the head stock. Voila, a trunnel in about five seconds.Make the hollow auger so that you can adjust the diameter slightly. The trunnels should drive hard.

ROWE BOATS
03-04-2001, 11:34 AM
My crew and I made around 5000 trunnels for a 70 foot sailing barge about 20 yrs ago. The trunnels were an inch and a quarter in diameter and about 16 inches long made of locust, which I believe is the best wood for the job. We ripped the locust into slightly oversized squares and turned them on a trunnel lathe. Now I'm sure you don't have a trunnel lathe, but you can overcome that by modifying any lathe to do the job. First you need a head stock that you can plug the end of the trunnel stock in the you need to make a hollow auger for the tail stock. Plug the trunnel stock into the head then pull the tail stock with the hollow auger along the lathe bed ways toward the head stock. Voila, a trunnel in about five seconds.Make the hollow auger so that you can adjust the diameter slightly. The trunnels should drive hard.

woodbutch
03-04-2001, 09:33 PM
Thanks guys,

Jeff Lane suggested these for all underwater fastenings in lieu of metal. Somewhat more work but otoh, should be less cash outlay. He also suggested the locust. As it happens I know of a fair amount of locust locally.

Is there any kind of 'rule of thumb' as to diameter/size of frames etc?

woodbutch
03-04-2001, 09:33 PM
Thanks guys,

Jeff Lane suggested these for all underwater fastenings in lieu of metal. Somewhat more work but otoh, should be less cash outlay. He also suggested the locust. As it happens I know of a fair amount of locust locally.

Is there any kind of 'rule of thumb' as to diameter/size of frames etc?

woodbutch
03-04-2001, 09:33 PM
Thanks guys,

Jeff Lane suggested these for all underwater fastenings in lieu of metal. Somewhat more work but otoh, should be less cash outlay. He also suggested the locust. As it happens I know of a fair amount of locust locally.

Is there any kind of 'rule of thumb' as to diameter/size of frames etc?

Ian McColgin
03-05-2001, 03:30 PM
In a pervious trennel thread I mentioned to old rule of thumb which, if memory serves - nope. Memory doesn't serve. I was thinking 1" diameter for 100' of boat but that feels too small. If you can't find the thread, where I did cite the correct rule, give a screech - or perhaps RoweBoats will answer.

In new planking where there's some bending strain, you may be forced to either blind and outer wedges or leaving the plank clamped in place till your epoxy sets. My own experience is replacing fastenings which is really much simpler. In one new bit of plank I was replacing where there was no way to clamp, I put a temporary bolt at each end, later replaced when the glue around the other trenells had set.

G'luck

Ian McColgin
03-05-2001, 03:30 PM
In a pervious trennel thread I mentioned to old rule of thumb which, if memory serves - nope. Memory doesn't serve. I was thinking 1" diameter for 100' of boat but that feels too small. If you can't find the thread, where I did cite the correct rule, give a screech - or perhaps RoweBoats will answer.

In new planking where there's some bending strain, you may be forced to either blind and outer wedges or leaving the plank clamped in place till your epoxy sets. My own experience is replacing fastenings which is really much simpler. In one new bit of plank I was replacing where there was no way to clamp, I put a temporary bolt at each end, later replaced when the glue around the other trenells had set.

G'luck

Ian McColgin
03-05-2001, 03:30 PM
In a pervious trennel thread I mentioned to old rule of thumb which, if memory serves - nope. Memory doesn't serve. I was thinking 1" diameter for 100' of boat but that feels too small. If you can't find the thread, where I did cite the correct rule, give a screech - or perhaps RoweBoats will answer.

In new planking where there's some bending strain, you may be forced to either blind and outer wedges or leaving the plank clamped in place till your epoxy sets. My own experience is replacing fastenings which is really much simpler. In one new bit of plank I was replacing where there was no way to clamp, I put a temporary bolt at each end, later replaced when the glue around the other trenells had set.

G'luck

Dave Fleming
03-05-2001, 04:19 PM
Ian,glue and trunnels?
I am confused here.
Practice was to drill out the old trunnel with a bit just big enough to scrape the sides of the original hole. Sometimes more that one bit had to be used to sorta sneak up on that hole diameter. Then run a bit about a 'CH' bigger in diameter and insert a new larger sized trunnel sometimes blind wedged but most often not.

Dave Fleming
03-05-2001, 04:19 PM
Ian,glue and trunnels?
I am confused here.
Practice was to drill out the old trunnel with a bit just big enough to scrape the sides of the original hole. Sometimes more that one bit had to be used to sorta sneak up on that hole diameter. Then run a bit about a 'CH' bigger in diameter and insert a new larger sized trunnel sometimes blind wedged but most often not.

Dave Fleming
03-05-2001, 04:19 PM
Ian,glue and trunnels?
I am confused here.
Practice was to drill out the old trunnel with a bit just big enough to scrape the sides of the original hole. Sometimes more that one bit had to be used to sorta sneak up on that hole diameter. Then run a bit about a 'CH' bigger in diameter and insert a new larger sized trunnel sometimes blind wedged but most often not.

Ian McColgin
03-05-2001, 04:40 PM
Some other threads explain Grana's unique reconstruction. She was built in the 60's mahogoney on oak. Her second owner thought she leaked too much so, down in Beliz he hauled her, bought some drums of epoxy, and had real fun. Basicly he tore out everything in the hull, reefed and then routered the seams, epoxied in soft-wood splines, expoxied within and without, and built a new deck and interior.

It's been very good since except:

The old iron fastening - mostly cut iron nails, were deteriorating by the 80's. These are sites for rot to start. He began and I've continued epoxying in trennels to replace them; and

She'd been dropped from a travel lift once and the bruising of her stem is a location for rot. I'll probably have to tear it right out one of these days.

But, for the last 25 years, the great epoxy-monocoque hull experiment has held up very well.

I'm not sure of how well epoxied trenels would work in a conventional hull, with its shrinking and swelling cycles, but it seems to me that it can't be more of a problem than regular trenneling.

I don't use any thickeners in the epoxy for this and my bore to trenel fit is as tight as you'd use without epoxy. The epoxy bonds the trennel in and seals the plank/frame grain nicely but most pleasantly it acts as a lubricant greatly easing the banging. Slicker is gentler and all that.

Ian McColgin
03-05-2001, 04:40 PM
Some other threads explain Grana's unique reconstruction. She was built in the 60's mahogoney on oak. Her second owner thought she leaked too much so, down in Beliz he hauled her, bought some drums of epoxy, and had real fun. Basicly he tore out everything in the hull, reefed and then routered the seams, epoxied in soft-wood splines, expoxied within and without, and built a new deck and interior.

It's been very good since except:

The old iron fastening - mostly cut iron nails, were deteriorating by the 80's. These are sites for rot to start. He began and I've continued epoxying in trennels to replace them; and

She'd been dropped from a travel lift once and the bruising of her stem is a location for rot. I'll probably have to tear it right out one of these days.

But, for the last 25 years, the great epoxy-monocoque hull experiment has held up very well.

I'm not sure of how well epoxied trenels would work in a conventional hull, with its shrinking and swelling cycles, but it seems to me that it can't be more of a problem than regular trenneling.

I don't use any thickeners in the epoxy for this and my bore to trenel fit is as tight as you'd use without epoxy. The epoxy bonds the trennel in and seals the plank/frame grain nicely but most pleasantly it acts as a lubricant greatly easing the banging. Slicker is gentler and all that.

Ian McColgin
03-05-2001, 04:40 PM
Some other threads explain Grana's unique reconstruction. She was built in the 60's mahogoney on oak. Her second owner thought she leaked too much so, down in Beliz he hauled her, bought some drums of epoxy, and had real fun. Basicly he tore out everything in the hull, reefed and then routered the seams, epoxied in soft-wood splines, expoxied within and without, and built a new deck and interior.

It's been very good since except:

The old iron fastening - mostly cut iron nails, were deteriorating by the 80's. These are sites for rot to start. He began and I've continued epoxying in trennels to replace them; and

She'd been dropped from a travel lift once and the bruising of her stem is a location for rot. I'll probably have to tear it right out one of these days.

But, for the last 25 years, the great epoxy-monocoque hull experiment has held up very well.

I'm not sure of how well epoxied trenels would work in a conventional hull, with its shrinking and swelling cycles, but it seems to me that it can't be more of a problem than regular trenneling.

I don't use any thickeners in the epoxy for this and my bore to trenel fit is as tight as you'd use without epoxy. The epoxy bonds the trennel in and seals the plank/frame grain nicely but most pleasantly it acts as a lubricant greatly easing the banging. Slicker is gentler and all that.

Ian McColgin
03-05-2001, 06:46 PM
Yeah, rot's a problem. Dernd locust only lasts about 50 years less than a rock.

I'm sure that down there there is something really close grained that will work like locust.

G'luck

Ian McColgin
03-05-2001, 06:46 PM
Yeah, rot's a problem. Dernd locust only lasts about 50 years less than a rock.

I'm sure that down there there is something really close grained that will work like locust.

G'luck

Ian McColgin
03-05-2001, 06:46 PM
Yeah, rot's a problem. Dernd locust only lasts about 50 years less than a rock.

I'm sure that down there there is something really close grained that will work like locust.

G'luck

ROWE BOATS
03-05-2001, 07:00 PM
The size of the trunnel would depend on plank thickness and frame size. On the boat I was speaking of the planking was 4 inches thick and the frames 8 inch hackmatack knees, and we used inch and a quarter trunnels. The New Hampshire farmers say that locust makes pretty good fence posts, but does last a year less than granite.

ROWE BOATS
03-05-2001, 07:00 PM
The size of the trunnel would depend on plank thickness and frame size. On the boat I was speaking of the planking was 4 inches thick and the frames 8 inch hackmatack knees, and we used inch and a quarter trunnels. The New Hampshire farmers say that locust makes pretty good fence posts, but does last a year less than granite.

ROWE BOATS
03-05-2001, 07:00 PM
The size of the trunnel would depend on plank thickness and frame size. On the boat I was speaking of the planking was 4 inches thick and the frames 8 inch hackmatack knees, and we used inch and a quarter trunnels. The New Hampshire farmers say that locust makes pretty good fence posts, but does last a year less than granite.

paladin
03-06-2001, 02:41 AM
Tony,
I have several acres of locust standing,,,,,would you like to come and cut one or two?

paladin
03-06-2001, 02:41 AM
Tony,
I have several acres of locust standing,,,,,would you like to come and cut one or two?

paladin
03-06-2001, 02:41 AM
Tony,
I have several acres of locust standing,,,,,would you like to come and cut one or two?

Mike Field
03-06-2001, 03:24 AM
G'day, Tony,

I'm listening, but I'm not sure I know the right answer.

My immediate thought is spotted gum (Eucalyptus maculata.) It's also my second thought, too, but doing a bit of homework it seems that a few other eucalypts would do as well --

Brown bloodwood (E trackyphloia,) grey, coast grey, or white box (E hemiphloia, bosistoana, albens,) grey gum (E puynctata,) any of the ironbarks (E siderophloia, paniculata, drep[anophylla, crebra, sideroxylon,) tallowwood (E microcorya,) or if you're building a pearling lugger up at Broome (ha, ha), wandoo (E redunca.)

One other timber that occurred to me, too, is turpentine (Syncarpia laurifolia -- only strength group B whereas the others are all A,) because of its resistance to teredo attack. Its green density is 75 pcf, and it should be available up your way.

If you want me to go into it further, drop me an email.

Of course, we could always turn up a few from granite for you if you really wanted.

Cheers, Mike.

Mike Field
03-06-2001, 03:24 AM
G'day, Tony,

I'm listening, but I'm not sure I know the right answer.

My immediate thought is spotted gum (Eucalyptus maculata.) It's also my second thought, too, but doing a bit of homework it seems that a few other eucalypts would do as well --

Brown bloodwood (E trackyphloia,) grey, coast grey, or white box (E hemiphloia, bosistoana, albens,) grey gum (E puynctata,) any of the ironbarks (E siderophloia, paniculata, drep[anophylla, crebra, sideroxylon,) tallowwood (E microcorya,) or if you're building a pearling lugger up at Broome (ha, ha), wandoo (E redunca.)

One other timber that occurred to me, too, is turpentine (Syncarpia laurifolia -- only strength group B whereas the others are all A,) because of its resistance to teredo attack. Its green density is 75 pcf, and it should be available up your way.

If you want me to go into it further, drop me an email.

Of course, we could always turn up a few from granite for you if you really wanted.

Cheers, Mike.

Mike Field
03-06-2001, 03:24 AM
G'day, Tony,

I'm listening, but I'm not sure I know the right answer.

My immediate thought is spotted gum (Eucalyptus maculata.) It's also my second thought, too, but doing a bit of homework it seems that a few other eucalypts would do as well --

Brown bloodwood (E trackyphloia,) grey, coast grey, or white box (E hemiphloia, bosistoana, albens,) grey gum (E puynctata,) any of the ironbarks (E siderophloia, paniculata, drep[anophylla, crebra, sideroxylon,) tallowwood (E microcorya,) or if you're building a pearling lugger up at Broome (ha, ha), wandoo (E redunca.)

One other timber that occurred to me, too, is turpentine (Syncarpia laurifolia -- only strength group B whereas the others are all A,) because of its resistance to teredo attack. Its green density is 75 pcf, and it should be available up your way.

If you want me to go into it further, drop me an email.

Of course, we could always turn up a few from granite for you if you really wanted.

Cheers, Mike.