PDA

View Full Version : Cleaning fuel injectors



Lew Barrett
05-29-2014, 02:36 AM
I reckon somebody here knows the best way. One thought is to spend 20 bucks apiece and take them to a cleaning service. Another is to blow some carb cleaner through them while pulsing them with a 9 volt battery. Any thoughts, any tricks, any ankle biters if I go after them myself?
Jake?

pipefitter
05-29-2014, 02:54 AM
http://seafoamsales.com/

jonboy
05-29-2014, 03:42 AM
Diesel?...Extraordinarily sensitive easily damaged...I do most stuff diy but leave the injectors and any pump servicing to the pros...there are a few around here who do nothing but pump and injector servicing, and one guy who does nothing but Bosch. some serious investment in the kit and the place is like a surgery. There must be a reason

The Bigfella
05-29-2014, 03:45 AM
+1.

Paul Pless
05-29-2014, 05:27 AM
whatever jake says i'm going with

Hwyl
05-29-2014, 06:25 AM
Use it as an excuse to do 100mph, tell the cop I said it was OK.

Lew Barrett
05-29-2014, 09:29 AM
They're gas. Fouled from years of sitting around. Seafoam didn't work, Paul. Italian tune up didn't work. Failing consensus, I'll pull them and find the recommended local spot to have them cleaned. I suppose I'll need to get the tank serviced as well. That will be a messier job.

I'll go with Jake's advice as well, whatever it is.

Paul Pless
05-29-2014, 09:36 AM
I suppose I'll need to get the tank serviced as well. That will be a messier job. molasses :D

Figment
05-29-2014, 09:44 AM
Normally I'm firmly in the camp of "spend the $20 to have them done", but your timing may be a problem. My experience has been that those guys are really backed-up april through june as people with ethanol problems fire up their motors and screw up the injectors. I know of one guy who spends his winter stockpiling really common units to get ahead of the wave, but even he is usually out of those units by memorial day.

Paul Pless
05-29-2014, 09:50 AM
please give us video of the 9volt battery trick lew :D

pumpkin
05-29-2014, 10:03 AM
Clean your mass air flow sensor. (if equipped)

Canoeyawl
05-29-2014, 11:12 AM
(No pressure lol)

I think that cleaning fuel injectors by using a fuel additive is a waste of money and time.

A harsh enough chemical (solvent) required to "clean" an injector is not likely to be sold over the counter, and adding it to the fuel tank would dilute it so much it would be rendered useless. A chemical strong enough to do the job would likely destroy hoses, o-rings, etc. and you wouldn't want to burn it. (Modern gasoline itself is a pretty strong solvent)

Fuel injectors are mechanical wonderments and they do wear out, erosion is a problem, and they collect carbon deposits on the combustion chamber side that may interfere with the spray pattern (or not). Measuring flow and observing the pattern of atomisation would be the only way to confirm an injector problem, a procedure likely more expensive than a replacement.

If you can detect an operational issue that makes the injector suspect, it is likely a different problem, or the injector needs to be replaced.

( fuel injectors can be rebuilt, but for gasoline stuff I would just replace them. My experience with "rebuilt" parts is not good excepting Caterpillar and from them at least half the time the "rebuilt" replacement is in fact, new.).

Lew Barrett
05-29-2014, 11:23 AM
Well, that is not the answer I'd hoped for! Yeesh!
(I'm certain it is clogged and not worn out. I can hear them cycling...on the cycle of course)

Paul, this is the NRA approved 9 Volt method. Unfortuntely, I do not have an empty 30-06 case to press into service.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffdPCno5izU

Paul Pless
05-29-2014, 02:06 PM
I do not have an empty 30-06 case to press into service. i can send you .308 or .300 wby mag or a .32 S&W long cases if you like; or many other non thudy calibre cases if you should so desire - i think .375 h&h would make a spectacular mouthpiece. . . :D

John of Phoenix
05-29-2014, 02:25 PM
Sparks and open gasoline. Hey, hold my beer for a sec.

stromborg
05-29-2014, 02:43 PM
The flammable range of gasoline is 1.4% to 7.6% so a fan moving a bit of air over the workbench ought to help. No idea what might be in the cleaner though.

Just out of curiosity, what are the injectors out of Lew? Judging by the state of the gastank/fuel pump on my old K100RS I too will be cleaning some injectors soon.

paulf
05-29-2014, 02:51 PM
Sparks and open gasoline. Hey, hold my beer for a sec.

That's to funny!!

Lew Barrett
05-29-2014, 03:18 PM
The flammable range of gasoline is 1.4% to 7.6% so a fan moving a bit of air over the workbench ought to help. No idea what might be in the cleaner though.

Just out of curiosity, what are the injectors out of Lew? Judging by the state of the gastank/fuel pump on my old K100RS I too will be cleaning some injectors soon.

Steve, they are out of a 2001 R1150GS. It sat for 6 years so recommissioning has included a clutch slave and fluid bleed (done), bleeding and replacing the hydraulic fluid for the brakes and ABS system (done), all other fluids swapped, dumping the stale gas (done) front fork rehab (just the stanchions and sliders on the Telelever and new seals....done....the strut is fine). I should have replaced the fuel filter as well, but skipped that step since the bike had very low mileage. Now I think I may be paying the price. The injectors are easy to pull, so I'll take them to the pro (having decided to spend the fifty bucks and the day it will take). I'm not sure exactly what to do with the tank beyond emptying it again and flushing it carefully, a job I am not looking forward to as the tank is enormous, cumbersome and has absolutely flawless paint, a combination sure to displease.

Cranks, has perfect compression, looks immaculate. Here it is before and after I bolted it all back together and started it up. Right cylinder won't fire, has spark. So, injectors are my best guess. The shop manual says they are not serviceable and believe it or not, there is absolutely nothing of use I can find on ADV or the Hall of Wisdom. But they are serviceable. I shall prove that, or shoot the dead (again) one with Paul's ammo.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff76/LewBarrett/GS%20Files/Torndown_zps62c3da3a.jpg
Torn down. Eventually I split the bike by moving the subframe because the slave was such a bear to access. No picture of that.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff76/LewBarrett/GS%20Files/slave_zps29f9f065.jpg
It was not really that hard to shift the frame, but if I ever do it again, I think I can wiggle it in and out without going that far.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff76/LewBarrett/GS%20Files/GSDash_zpsc2e2b8cf.jpg
It was a good deal. I couldn't pass on it, and I'd owned this very bike once before and had foolishly sold it off to a friend who didn't start it for six years. I'm looking forward to getting it running again; easy and pleasant to wrench on for the most part.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff76/LewBarrett/GS%20Files/GSpretty_zps1ef3d7fc.jpg
This was taken after I put it back together but before I fired it off. It's slick.

Paul Pless
05-29-2014, 03:26 PM
and believe it or not, there is absolutely nothing of use I can find on ADV or the Hall of Wisdom. there is a thread on advrider about some buffoon who switched his identical model from bosch motronic to mikuni flat slides; ridiculous really considering he also gave up his electronic ignition control. . .

jonboy
05-29-2014, 03:33 PM
but he won't get stuck in the middle of nowhere because of an undiagnosable and irreparable ( by the side of the track) fault in his chip brain sensor whatever...hey PP whats that about simpler is better....???

Paul Pless
05-29-2014, 03:35 PM
hey PP whats that about simpler is better....???yeah yeah i know; but bosch fuel injection is pretty well sorted these days and has been since oh about 1980 in cars. . .

Lew Barrett
05-29-2014, 03:47 PM
This bike is pretty simple as is. Bosch FI it is. The Motronic control is about as reliable as they come. You can break things down as simple as you'd like, but electronic ignition and FI are a positive boon. The reason this is giving me any issues at all is not because it was used, but because it wasn't.

slug
05-29-2014, 04:13 PM
From the bosch site..injectors

http://www.bosch.com.au/car_parts/en/html/4554.htm

pumpkin
05-29-2014, 04:38 PM
Swap a firing injector (known good) into the cylinder that's not firing to confirm it is the injector.

Plug a noid light into the injector connector to confirm circuit has power and ground or use a diode type test light.

Lew Barrett
05-29-2014, 05:56 PM
I can hear it cycle. I can test for open short and impedance once they're out. Easy to do, just two bolts, a spring retainer and the fuel line. Thanks to everybody for the suggestions, film at eleven.

Stiletto
05-29-2014, 06:03 PM
I remember reading somewhere that each injector has a tiny filter inside it that can get blocked, which is routinely replaced when they are serviced.

Pumpkin's advice of swapping injectors from one side to the other is good.

The Bigfella
05-29-2014, 06:22 PM
yeah yeah i know; but bosch fuel injection is pretty well sorted these days and has been since oh about 1980 in cars. . .

... with the slight complication of the introduction of ethanol to the equation.

The deciding factor (among several competing ones) on me selecting the KTM Super Enduro over the BMW HP2 Enduro or GS800 was that the Katoom had carbies. That same issue meant that my 525 EXC cost me more than it would have otherwise. The previous owner, Justin, was extremely reluctant to switch from its carby to the current model's fuel injection. Remote areas, deep rivers, fuel out of bottles from roadside stalls.... all potential nightmares with fuel injection... and potentially life threatening for a guy with significant health issues.

There was a BMW twin trailered out of Cameron Corner (most remote part of NSW) when I was there in 2011 - he had a low speed crash - just a few mph - and cracked a plastic part in the fuel injection system. IIRC, his boot hit it during the fall. It was spraying fuel everywhere and he couldn't epoxy it up. Not good.

I've struck similar problems to what Lew has, with carbies. Bike left for a few months without the carbies fully drained. The answer of course, is simple. Pull the carby down and blow out the jets... put it back together and off you go.

Good luck with it Lew... there will be a thread on ADV, I presume?

Lew Barrett
05-29-2014, 06:57 PM
Good luck with it Lew... there will be a thread on ADV, I presume?

I'll probably do one in G Spot, possibly as an addition to the "show us your 1150GS" thread that has been running for a few years rather than as an independent thread unless recommissioning a moribund but otherwise healthy machine is something people might find useful. I don't consider the work I'm doing on it out of the ordinary given the level of competence some of the guys on that board display, but I am certainly enjoying doing it myself. The injectors will be an easy fix one way or another, and hopefully won't lead me down another path involving the Hall Effect sensor. I'll break it down tomorrow, diagnose it and report back. I was too busy today to get to it.

By the way, I'd previously considered swapping the injectors (not to diminish the value of the suggestion). I'll check them electrically first to see if that needs doing, but I'm very suspicious that the starboard injector is simply very fouled. It would have been a bit easier had it just been the plugs (which looked terrible when they were pulled) but at this point the right plug is new but isn't getting wet.

The Bigfella
05-29-2014, 07:02 PM
Yes, I'd like to be recommissioning my Husqvarna myself.... but the lack of tools, workspace... and now me being 8,000 km away is a bit of an issue. Hopefully, new bushes in the starter motor is going to see it running.

Re the transducer - is that a known problem? I thought it may have been an errant magnet in the ignition with the Husky... a known issue with the (I believe, Ducati-made) ignition setup in the Husky. The fix with them... glue it back on with some JB Weld.

Canoeyawl
05-29-2014, 07:42 PM
Have you tried hitting them with a hammer or a rock?
That's what most of them look like by the time I see them. That and starters, alternators and most other electrical devices...

pumpkin
05-29-2014, 09:29 PM
I'll probably do one in G Spot, possibly as an addition to the "show us your 1150GS" thread that has been running for a few years rather than as an independent thread unless recommissioning a moribund but otherwise healthy machine is something people might find useful. I don't consider the work I'm doing on it out of the ordinary given the level of competence some of the guys on that board display, but I am certainly enjoying doing it myself. The injectors will be an easy fix one way or another, and hopefully won't lead me down another path involving the Hall Effect sensor. I'll break it down tomorrow, diagnose it and report back. I was too busy today to get to it.

By the way, I'd previously considered swapping the injectors (not to diminish the value of the suggestion). I'll check them electrically first to see if that needs doing, but I'm very suspicious that the starboard injector is simply very fouled. It would have been a bit easier had it just been the plugs (which looked terrible when they were pulled) but at this point the right plug is new but isn't getting wet.

Respectfully Lew, I've been doing engine performance and drivabilty diagnosis and repair professionally for almost 30 years. As dumb as my suggestion may sound, simply checking them electrically will not tell you nothing concrete for reasons I'm not going to take the time to explain. Swapping them will tell you almost instantly if you have found the problem. You stated that they are easy to access so it should be simple. I have pulled intake plenums to swap injectors for this simple confirmation.

Lew Barrett
05-30-2014, 08:58 AM
Thanks Pumpkin, I'll give it a try.

Lew Barrett
05-30-2014, 09:01 AM
Re the transducer - is that a known problem? I thought it may have been an errant magnet in the ignition with the Husky... a known issue with the (I believe, Ducati-made) ignition setup in the Husky. The fix with them... glue it back on with some JB Weld.

It's part of the timing control circuit, and I think you properly identify it as a transducer although it's called a sensor in the documentation.

Lew Barrett
05-30-2014, 09:01 AM
Have you tried hitting them with a hammer or a rock?
That's what most of them look like by the time I see them. That and starters, alternators and most other electrical devices...

I'd considered it!

Lew Barrett
06-01-2014, 11:08 PM
I emptied the tank again and replaced the fuel filter. The tank looked great but there was some charcoal in the filter from the canister. I'll remove the canister tomorrow. Getting antsy to run it, I decided to try cleaning the bum injector, which I checked for continuity just for kicks. 16 ohms suggested the windings were good. I did a hillbilly You Tube cleanse, shooting some carb cleaner through the injector with a syringe while cycling it off a 9V battery. A couple of tries yielded a mist of fuel from all four ports. I installed the injectors into their saddles, the results visible below. I rode it five miles and it will do what it is supposed to for me. It needs a tune, valve adjustment and throttle bodies synched and of course tires and maybe front brake pads. I'll get that all sorted this week.

I feel satisfied and competent, smug even, as my diagnosis and solutions worked. You can clean fuel injectors at home. Welcome back, old girl.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXn8OXHms8I&feature=youtu.be

The Bigfella
06-01-2014, 11:30 PM
Well done.

Would you mind flying over to Chiang Mai and getting my Husky going please?

BrianW
06-01-2014, 11:40 PM
Should 9vdc not be enough, I've used this method to get 27vdc, which is close enough to 28vdc systems to work. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/4152669F-8A8B-4C6D-AAC9-67DE76F81A8F_zpscllgjf8r.jpg

Captain Intrepid
06-01-2014, 11:44 PM
Just 3 Brian? ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hwLHdBTQ7s

Lew Barrett
06-01-2014, 11:59 PM
Well done.

Would you mind flying over to Chiang Mai and getting my Husky going please?

My pleasure. Chang Mai is Mai Thai fine.

Lew Barrett
06-02-2014, 12:10 AM
Should 9vdc not be enough, I've used this method to get 27vdc, which is close enough to 28vdc systems to work. ;)


Before I'd tried it, I was puzzled about the 9V business, but I figured I had nothing to lose except a part that already wasn't performing. The guy in the video made it work, so I figured as long as I didn't leave the thing connected for too long it would be OK. I've had a ball working on it.
I just wish my space was better organized, and not having a lift was a PITA as well.