Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14

[june]

We have a cold moulded Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 which was built here in Cornwall - UK by a superb boat builder. She is such a beauty that we are reluctant to put an outboard engine bracket on her transom but we have heard that there is a "Herreshof" bracket. Can any of you help? We would like to know where to source one.
Also has anyone fitted an inboard engine?
June

[Art Read]

Hi there... Beautiful boat! This is an American company, but they'll have just what you're looking for in a removeable, inconspicuous outboard bracket. ($$$!)

http://bristolbronze.com/

Click on the "link" for their product catalog and then go to "Outfitting the Haven/Herreshoff 12 1/2".

(Perhaps they'll even be able to point you to a more "local" source?)

[june]

Thank you so much for the information. I have made contact with Bristol Bronze and have requested details. What a quick reply!!!

[Ian McColgin]

But don't do it! The doughdish will move along nicely with a sweep in a dead calm and anything else she'll sail right nicely. You can always anchor if the tide's too swift. And you'll feel so much better about yourself.
G'luck

[june]

Ian,
3 questions! Is a Doughdish the same as a BB14?
When you say that she will move along with a "sweep" what do you mean? and finally - have you ever sat in the middle of Lake Windermere in the English Lake District when the wind has dropped to nothing watching the next band of lakeland rain rushing towards you!!!?
Look forward to your reply. June

[Art Read]

Doughdish is a "nickname" for the class, supposedly given by an owner's caretaker for the hull's resemblance to an old fashioned bread making bowl. Also the "trade" name for a fiberglass, production knock-off of the design. (Marconi rigged, I believe.) A "sweep" is simply a longish oar, usually used off one side or the other in tandem with the rudder for directional stability and rowed standing up. And Ian lives aboard, on a mooring in Hyannis, on Cape Cod, (quite near Buzzard's Bay, actually...) and he ENJOYS rowing ashore in the morning at dawn, in the rain and sleet, for his morning coffee and a paper. (And maybe a shower if folks stop coming near him... ;) ) Don't let him guilt trip you out of a little "iron genny" if you want one!

(That the same lake where "WoodenBoat" did the article on that guy's steam boat collection? Pretty spot!)

[Buddy Sharpton]

These are a family of Herreshoff boats of similar hull shades, hollow bow, raked wineglass transom. The term Doughdish was bestowed by an Italian household servant because that's what the smallest, the 12 1/2 foot waterline boat, reminded him of. The trrem Doughdish refers to that 12 1/2 foot waterlaine, 16 foot hull boat. An American company manufactures a fiberglass model with lots of wood trim and wooden spars- top noitch stuff, and calls it the "Doughdish" still. Anorher American compamy manufactures a more simplified fiberglass one with less wood and aluminum spars and calls it the Buzzard's Bay Bullseye, the name given to the original wood boat,marconi rigged versions that replaced the earlier Buzzrd's Bay Boy's Boat gaff rigged versions. All the same hull. There were I believe 14/15 , 21, and 26 foot versions as well, but these are not called Doughdish, but Fifteens, Fish Class, and Alerion.All this history is from memory and not a written reference so I stand prepared to be corrected by a later post.

[Ian McColgin]

Guilt is good if it keeps someone from sacrilige.

[Ian McColgin]

Actually, do a cost/benefit analysis not only of buying the damn thing, paying for fuel, fixing it from time to time, swearing at it when you can't start it, etc. Add to the cost the extent to which using the engin causes detrimental reliance on the fool thing and gets you into more trouble than ever it could get you out of . . .

As opposed to the peace of sweeping along on a calm, of skillfully sailing in tight places, of just sitting doing nothing but watching the water go by whilest you await a tide change, all of which are unmitigated benefits because they are more time aboard.

It's not even a close call.

A dear friend's OB for her Cape Dory Typhoon went through a two year death - first year I'd stuffed a bit of dowel into the power head to keep it in permanent forward and got another season that way - and I convinced her to simply not get another. That led to a decade of the best sailing she ever had.

I do remember as a child that we were the only boat with no motor. One race the tide was ebbing and the Dead Sea (Long Island Sound) was like a great oil slick. The Committee had taken the marks away. Everyone else fired up the motors and putted in. My sister, brother and I were fighting in the bilges.

A power boat came by and, since these guys (even in the '50's) can't just talk, enquired over his loud hailer, "May I offer you a tow?"

My mother stood in the stern defiantly pregnant with my youngest brother and replied, "No thank you, we're racing!"

Also from childhood, I remember the bioluminescence from each of Dad's oar strokes as we came home on those dead calm summer's evenings. Dad always waited for the tide to turn so it was sometimes late and he'd tell us this endless cycle of 'Hyderack' stories about a boy and his dog - the dog as a lost pup had looked like a hide draped over a rack, hense the name.

Row on, you and any family and friends you may have will have a better life.

[Art Read]

I look at it from a slightly different "cost/benefit analysis". SWMBO, who doesn't much care for my cedar bucket/head idea has made it perfectly clear that she will be much more "comfortable" going out with me on the spur of the moment for a quiet evening's sail if I can guarantee a timely return to shoreside "conveniences". I suspect if the truth be told, she's also a bit worried about being at the mercy of the wind, my seamanship and an ash sweep to get her home if we should happen to get caught out in a bit of nasty weather. An outboard on a removable bracket that can live most of the time in a storage container out of the way amidships somewhere seems a good compromise. I'll have a nice, varnished sweep aboard to save having to mess with the engine just to get out of an akward slip and to preserve the tranquility on a quiet evening when we feel no great urgency to get home... Perhaps, with a little time and a higher comfort level with the boat and what she can do under sail and sweeps, her doubts will be quieted enough so that I can quietly sell the outboard and use the proceeds to rig the boat for that old fashioned spinnaker shown on the sail plan...

At any rate, a removable bracket will keep your options open without permenantly altering the beautiful lines of your boat or changing her character completely by installing an inboard.

[ 05-23-2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Scott Rosen]

What Ian said.

When I finished building my Nutshell, I purposefully did not build an OB bracket. I took the old Nissan 3.5 and inflatable dinghy and mothballed them. It's my intention never to use that dammed OB again. I have oars and a sail. Between the two, I get where I need to go in any conditions. My wife was asking me for a while to build an OB bracket, because she was afraid we might need to get to shore really fast for an emergency. I talked her out of it.

It really is a pleasure not to have to deal with the engine, oil, gas, smelly exhaust, etc. And then there's the sheer joy of knowing that you can get where you need to go under your own power or the wind's power, quietly and peacefully.

[Art Read]

Well, Scott, a full keeled daysailor and a sailing dingy have slighty different characteristics wouldn't you say? I can't see putting an outboard on a "Nutshell" either. Kinda defeats the purpose... Are you saying "Patience" doesn't have an auxiliary? (That is the "mothership's" name, right?)

[cdragon]

Another strong vote for the sweep!! Unless you sail the boat to get from point A to point B in a certain period of time, then an engine is pretty handy. But, if you use one of these lovely boats as they were meant to be used (wait for the seabreeze in Bristol and go sailing...) then the hassle, smell, ugliness etc of the engine is nothing but that. If, on that nice summer's afternoon the breeze does die, well you'll be surprised at how pleasant it is to pull out the sweep and start leaning into it-you'll also be surprised at how well she'll go like that. Remember, we are indeed slaves of the 21st century with time restrictions and all the rest, but people have been sailing boats and yachts and all kinds of stuff without engines for hundreds if not thousands of years and getting where they needed to go, safely, happily, and perhaps a little more at peace with the sea and the lump of wood they use to sail on it...The hell with the donk unless you reaaaaalllly need it...

[Billy Bones]

Personally, I hope never to own a sailboat with a motor again, particularly a classic design.

BUT, I came to that opinion after having a sailboat with one. And at the time no one could have talked me out of it. June, get the bracket, it's unobtrusive, even removable, IIRC, and can be dispensed with if/when you feel appropriate.

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

Art, your first paragraph was the better of the two. She asked the question, she deserves the answers. I for one was prctically drawn to tears by Ian's response.
The sloop I am rebuilding, 22 foot fish class knock-off will have no engine. I like a pair of sweeps, nice bronze oarlocks, stand up row.
My folks paid good money for me to go to sailing camp on the cape way back when. They taught us to SAIL, any time in all conditions. Sail into a slip, sail up to a dock, sail up the creek and back out again. Sail without a rudder, sail without a crew, you get the picture.
It seems a damn shame to put an engine on such a pretty little boat. On my mothers wall is a print of Herreshof himself in jacket and tie at the helm of a haven sailing through the mooring field. There is no engine visible. I think he might even be a little offended by the idea.

[Art Read]

You know? I'm really enjoying this thread. I've got a feeling it could turn into one of "those" threads where we can all offer up a lifetime's worth of thought, experience and philosophical absolutes regarding the "zen" of wood, water and "outboard maintenaince"... Good stuff!

But the lady just wanted to know if anybody could point her in the right direction towards one of these gadgets. She's the master of that nice, little boat, and after two years sailing her has decided she'd rather like to have an engine aboard to beat the occasional rain shower back to the dock. Without ruining the intrinsic appeal of her boat. Who are we to tell her that it's "wrong"? Having selected the boat that she has, she obviously doesn't need us to explain to her the pleasures to be had by simply messing about with boats. Perhaps now that the idea of sweeps has been brought to mind, she'll more often reach for them before bothering to unstow and hang the iron monster at the stern. But that's her choice and so it should be...

Now, if she wanted to know about the idea slathering fiberglass and googe over an original, plank on frame boat from the Herreshoff yard, well....

[Art Read]

Sorry Cedar... I did a "delete/edit" there. I liked Ian's response too. But we need a "devil's advocate" for this thread, and besides, I stand by my statement that June, as master, has a right to indulge herself with an engine if she so chooses. I think we all agree the idea of an inboard is a non-starter. And I'd be appalled if she wanted to cut a well for that outboard. But a removable bracket, at least, leaves only a small mounting plate to besmirch the boat's "purity" and even the fastening scars from that could be repaired quite easily should she or the next owners so decide. I'm not suggesting one "rely" on an engine to make up for a lack of seamanship or self-reliance. Hell, I think most of us who've used outboards on small sailboats know that they are less versatile and manageable under power than under sail anyway. But if one would prefer the option of running the last few miles back to the dock in a dead calm under power with a cool drink in their hand instead of standing to the sweeps, well... it may not be "romantic", but doesn't mean you don't deserve the name "sailor" either. Personally, if I only intended to use my boat locally, I wouldn't bother with the outboard "option" either, despite SWMBO's "concerns". But as I do intend an occasional "delivery" run up Puget Sound to the San Juans for a long weekend's "cruise" now and then, I like the idea of a predictible day's run to meet up with SWMBO at Friday Harbor on a Friday night. But I gotta admit... if it's aboard one day on Lake Washington when the wind dies, the wine's gone and the rain starts, well... I'll probably dig it out.

[Ian McColgin]

And sometimes there's another reason. My buddy with Ardent, Wianno #80, always wanted to get her into the Figawee Race. One requirement is an auxillary so he put one of those nifty bronze brackets that disappears on the boat. Even cast slip bracket stauncheon bases for life lines. Got a bigger jib to jigger the rating. But nothing doing. The Committee says, "No Wiannos. Ever. Period. Go away. Drop dead you woondenboatheads."

[Scott Rosen]

Originally posted by Art Read:
Well, Scott, a full keeled daysailor and a sailing dingy have slighty different characteristics wouldn't you say? I can't see putting an outboard on a "Nutshell" either. Kinda defeats the purpose... Are you saying "Patience" doesn't have an auxiliary? (That is the "mothership's" name, right?)It's nice to see some passion on a subject like this.

A full keeled daysailor has something my nutshell doesn't--Momentum. That makes it easier to row for a distance and through a chop.

My nutshell is our tender. Her primary purpose is to get us from Patience to shore and then back. That purpose would be well served by an outboard motor. Nevertheless, I refuse.

Patience is a motorsailor. She has an auxiliary engine, a Westerbeke 4-107, big, noisy and reliable. We use her to cruise Long Island Sound and vicinity. You can't do that in the Summer without an engine unless you've got unlimited time on your hands. As Ian said, it's the Dead Sea.

Now, as to your other point: sure, I have no right to tell june whether to have a motor, or to even suggest that having one is somehow less pure. But the beauty of this is that it's her boat I'm talking about, not mine. I'm not suggesting that "I" should row home in the rain. I'm telling her to do it. I have a nice warm pilothouse to keep me dry and a reliable diesel to get me home. I can goad her to live my fantasy without having to pay the price myself. I can give all the pie-in-the-sky advice I can think of, with no consequences to me. And june can take it or leave it. I suspect that if she's smart enough to have a boat like that, she knows enough to make her own decisions and ignore my BS.

Now, what was that you said about googing up a perfectly good boat . . .

[Art Read]

LOL! I respect an honest man, Scott. Truth is, the more I sit and type this "supposed" advice to June, the more pissed I'm getting that she gets to worry about getting rained on while I'm still knee deep in shavings... I guess it time to shut this fool thing off and hie myself off to the shop.

(So Ian... You're buddy got turned down AFTER spending all that money to please the Fugawe people? Ouch. I hope he went anyway, unofficially, and "walked away from all those J-24s once he got to crack the sheets a bit...)

[Dave Williams]

I REALLY like this thread,and I'll try to get my thoughts together to chime in soon. In the mean time it's sure good to get opinions from all you good folks.

My next project, a 23ft. cat yawl deadrise sharpie. Sweep, oars, or both, and/or motor? I don't want the motor but sometimes I'm confined to a schedule.

Ian, tell us more!

To Kindness,
Dave

[ 05-23-2002, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Dave Williams ]

[flyon]

Why not an electric motor? A 110 lb thrust trolling motor and a couple of batteries and you have two hour of running time at 3-4 knots. It is quite, inexpensive, no gas to mess with and clean. ;)

Fred

[ 05-23-2002, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: flyon ]

[Larry P.]

If you must put an outboard on the back, look hard and find an old British Seagull, that is the ONLY iron jenny that should gon on the back of a classic sailboat

[Ian McColgin]

Dave,

You going to trailor around or put skiis on it so you an get about on all those mountains? Bold man!

Firstly, as you must guess, Grana, being a 20T marco polo, has an engin. Albeit at 20hp (when it was new back in '42) the ol' Deutz might not count as much of an engin. Eventually I'll repower, probably with Otto's old engin. (Otto is the '80 Mercedes I got after it was declare too rusted out for Mother.) So, I'm not blindly against the iron jib.

I just think that there are boat and usages where adding an engin is counter-productive. I'd not hang an engin on Leeward, even though Gardner's plans show an OB well.

Even a boat like Grana where we do sometimes make plans that, to keep them, we need to do the deutz disco should be mostly sailed. It's my deepest conviction that if you can't anchor, moor on the hook or a dock, get off, and save yourself from a lee shore without the engin, you will sooner or later get into deepest dodo with the engin failing you. Even if I'm just chugging from the Cove to my mooring against the usual southwester - those who know Hyannis will appreciate that Grana cannot be tacked out that channel - I have enough sail at the ready that I can control the boat and get to a safe place if the engin sputters it's last.

And calm weather sailing -- It's truely the highest skill. Anyone who can ghoste from Fisher's Island to Block can sail anywhere anytime anywind.

To achieve and maintain that skill, I really make a point of sailing when I 'don't need to.'

With a wee boat, the easiest way to keep the skill up is not to even have the temptation. Just keep the sailing radius realistic if there are meaningful time constraints. If worste comes to worse, sail back near home but then fill out the time foozeling around near shore, tacking and gybing and generally having fun.

G'luck

[Scott Rosen]

Ian's thinking is right on the money.

The problem with putting an engine on a small daysailor is that, despite your best intentions, you will use the engine when you should be sailing.

A small OB on a daysailor will have plenty of power to get you into trouble, but no where near enough power to get you out of it. You have to be very disciplined and careful.