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Norm Bernstein
03-15-2004, 07:25 AM
I'm trying to plan ahead on my 15' catboat project, and am thinking of a laid deck. Yeah, I know, it's probably an 'affectation' on a boat this small, but I've done a couple of dockbox projects with laid teak steps and top, and love the look. Here's an example:

http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat/boatphotos/Dsc00368_websize.jpg

What I'd really like is a laid teak deck, sprung to the sheer, nibbed into a kingplank. The 'deck' isn't very large, of course. I was thinking that I'd set them in epoxy, similar to the technique described by the West System guys... no screws or bungs, and the seams filled with either polysulfide, or epoxy/graphite.

The problem is that the teak decking strips I can get locally (1/2" x 1 3/4") are simply too thick and wide to spring to the fairly substantial curve of a 15' catboat. I have a few pieces left over from the dock box project, and there's simply no way they will bend that far. I don't want to do a 'straight' laid deck, because I don't think it would look good on the narrow side decks alongside the cockpit coaming.

Therefore, I have the following questions:

1) Assuming that the underlayment for the deck will be 6mm ply with a fiberglass coat, can anyone recommend an appropriate dimension for strips that will bend to a strongly curved sheer? I was thinking that 1/4" thick would be fine (the deck will see very little wear), but what about width?

2) Considering the price of teak, I might be looking for alternative woods. I've seen hard pine decks, laid in similar fashion, that look fairly good... can anyone suggest another alternative?

Thanks in advance smile.gif

The ellipticat project web site (http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat)

Norm Bernstein
03-15-2004, 07:25 AM
I'm trying to plan ahead on my 15' catboat project, and am thinking of a laid deck. Yeah, I know, it's probably an 'affectation' on a boat this small, but I've done a couple of dockbox projects with laid teak steps and top, and love the look. Here's an example:

http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat/boatphotos/Dsc00368_websize.jpg

What I'd really like is a laid teak deck, sprung to the sheer, nibbed into a kingplank. The 'deck' isn't very large, of course. I was thinking that I'd set them in epoxy, similar to the technique described by the West System guys... no screws or bungs, and the seams filled with either polysulfide, or epoxy/graphite.

The problem is that the teak decking strips I can get locally (1/2" x 1 3/4") are simply too thick and wide to spring to the fairly substantial curve of a 15' catboat. I have a few pieces left over from the dock box project, and there's simply no way they will bend that far. I don't want to do a 'straight' laid deck, because I don't think it would look good on the narrow side decks alongside the cockpit coaming.

Therefore, I have the following questions:

1) Assuming that the underlayment for the deck will be 6mm ply with a fiberglass coat, can anyone recommend an appropriate dimension for strips that will bend to a strongly curved sheer? I was thinking that 1/4" thick would be fine (the deck will see very little wear), but what about width?

2) Considering the price of teak, I might be looking for alternative woods. I've seen hard pine decks, laid in similar fashion, that look fairly good... can anyone suggest another alternative?

Thanks in advance smile.gif

The ellipticat project web site (http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat)

Norm Bernstein
03-15-2004, 07:25 AM
I'm trying to plan ahead on my 15' catboat project, and am thinking of a laid deck. Yeah, I know, it's probably an 'affectation' on a boat this small, but I've done a couple of dockbox projects with laid teak steps and top, and love the look. Here's an example:

http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat/boatphotos/Dsc00368_websize.jpg

What I'd really like is a laid teak deck, sprung to the sheer, nibbed into a kingplank. The 'deck' isn't very large, of course. I was thinking that I'd set them in epoxy, similar to the technique described by the West System guys... no screws or bungs, and the seams filled with either polysulfide, or epoxy/graphite.

The problem is that the teak decking strips I can get locally (1/2" x 1 3/4") are simply too thick and wide to spring to the fairly substantial curve of a 15' catboat. I have a few pieces left over from the dock box project, and there's simply no way they will bend that far. I don't want to do a 'straight' laid deck, because I don't think it would look good on the narrow side decks alongside the cockpit coaming.

Therefore, I have the following questions:

1) Assuming that the underlayment for the deck will be 6mm ply with a fiberglass coat, can anyone recommend an appropriate dimension for strips that will bend to a strongly curved sheer? I was thinking that 1/4" thick would be fine (the deck will see very little wear), but what about width?

2) Considering the price of teak, I might be looking for alternative woods. I've seen hard pine decks, laid in similar fashion, that look fairly good... can anyone suggest another alternative?

Thanks in advance smile.gif

The ellipticat project web site (http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat)

On Vacation
03-15-2004, 08:26 AM
My recommendation would be to keep it simple and use wooden trim to compliment your boat. In order to spring in strips, in my opinion, sometimes it creates a very "busy look" because of the size of strips you need to accomplish this mission. A nice painted deck, even complimented with a contrasting color of nonskid, will make life easier for you, keep expense down, and a lot of weight topside for what you will get in return. Obsession is boats, not work, now is it? ;)

[ 03-15-2004, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

On Vacation
03-15-2004, 08:26 AM
My recommendation would be to keep it simple and use wooden trim to compliment your boat. In order to spring in strips, in my opinion, sometimes it creates a very "busy look" because of the size of strips you need to accomplish this mission. A nice painted deck, even complimented with a contrasting color of nonskid, will make life easier for you, keep expense down, and a lot of weight topside for what you will get in return. Obsession is boats, not work, now is it? ;)

[ 03-15-2004, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

On Vacation
03-15-2004, 08:26 AM
My recommendation would be to keep it simple and use wooden trim to compliment your boat. In order to spring in strips, in my opinion, sometimes it creates a very "busy look" because of the size of strips you need to accomplish this mission. A nice painted deck, even complimented with a contrasting color of nonskid, will make life easier for you, keep expense down, and a lot of weight topside for what you will get in return. Obsession is boats, not work, now is it? ;)

[ 03-15-2004, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

mmd
03-15-2004, 08:59 AM
One of my fellow members of the Small Wooden Boat Assoc. of Nova Scotia (SWBANS) built a 15-ft cat (I can't remember the design right now) and fitted a straight-laid teak deck that looked very nice. If I recall, it was of 3/16" x 2" strips laid over a ply sub-base. Because there is so little deck, it did not look ostentatious. IMHO, it is the scale of the planks that is important, not whether it should be done or not (with the caveat that laid decks should not be on a plywood hard chine hull - if you have the skills & cash to lay a teak deck, you have the skills & cash to build a round-bilge boat).

But that's just my opinion. ;)

mmd
03-15-2004, 08:59 AM
One of my fellow members of the Small Wooden Boat Assoc. of Nova Scotia (SWBANS) built a 15-ft cat (I can't remember the design right now) and fitted a straight-laid teak deck that looked very nice. If I recall, it was of 3/16" x 2" strips laid over a ply sub-base. Because there is so little deck, it did not look ostentatious. IMHO, it is the scale of the planks that is important, not whether it should be done or not (with the caveat that laid decks should not be on a plywood hard chine hull - if you have the skills & cash to lay a teak deck, you have the skills & cash to build a round-bilge boat).

But that's just my opinion. ;)

mmd
03-15-2004, 08:59 AM
One of my fellow members of the Small Wooden Boat Assoc. of Nova Scotia (SWBANS) built a 15-ft cat (I can't remember the design right now) and fitted a straight-laid teak deck that looked very nice. If I recall, it was of 3/16" x 2" strips laid over a ply sub-base. Because there is so little deck, it did not look ostentatious. IMHO, it is the scale of the planks that is important, not whether it should be done or not (with the caveat that laid decks should not be on a plywood hard chine hull - if you have the skills & cash to lay a teak deck, you have the skills & cash to build a round-bilge boat).

But that's just my opinion. ;)

JimConlin
03-15-2004, 09:08 AM
It could get very difficult to spring thin slats to a fat boat. Art Read's deck (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002279) which is straight looks good to me.

I like the Teak Decking Systems goo for these.

JimConlin
03-15-2004, 09:08 AM
It could get very difficult to spring thin slats to a fat boat. Art Read's deck (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002279) which is straight looks good to me.

I like the Teak Decking Systems goo for these.

JimConlin
03-15-2004, 09:08 AM
It could get very difficult to spring thin slats to a fat boat. Art Read's deck (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002279) which is straight looks good to me.

I like the Teak Decking Systems goo for these.

Jon Etheredge
03-15-2004, 10:47 AM
I don't want to do a 'straight' laid deck, because I don't think it would look good on the narrow side decks alongside the cockpit coaming.
On my small catboat, I made my covering board wide enough to span the side deck (it is sawed to shape). The strip decking is layed straight on the fore deck and aft deck.

Jon Etheredge
03-15-2004, 10:47 AM
I don't want to do a 'straight' laid deck, because I don't think it would look good on the narrow side decks alongside the cockpit coaming.
On my small catboat, I made my covering board wide enough to span the side deck (it is sawed to shape). The strip decking is layed straight on the fore deck and aft deck.

Jon Etheredge
03-15-2004, 10:47 AM
I don't want to do a 'straight' laid deck, because I don't think it would look good on the narrow side decks alongside the cockpit coaming.
On my small catboat, I made my covering board wide enough to span the side deck (it is sawed to shape). The strip decking is layed straight on the fore deck and aft deck.

Buddy
03-15-2004, 11:54 AM
Norm, you are back into a form follows function meets traditional look confrontation. Little wooden catboats, built before plywood, used light strip deck material , dimensioned at least square, if not taller than wide, precisely so they could readily bend to that strong curve. On an open boat that could be left as is. On a bigger cabin boat, this kind of deck is notoriously leaky right over your bunk, therefore the use of painted canvas to keep a strong deck construction watertight without huge ongoing maintenance.

Come the days of fiberglass hulls, with either plywood decks or fiberglass glass decks, the demand for the appearance of laid teak is more as a cosmetic upgrade ( yeah I know, its "the world's best" nonskid) than any structural purpose. On a fiberglass deck, this over and over leads to maintenance time, even ruination of the core in a fiberglass deck from thousands of leaking holes.

Done over a plywood deck a la WEST, it seems much more practical, but on a boat this small,it's going to be way heavy using square strips, or way difficult and slow using thin wide strips and trying to force down all the buckling. Any you miss might lead to voids.

Thus the practicality of reduced weight and manageable construction leads to fore and aft "faux" planking over plywood on small character boat decks. Or the even more practical dynel ( looking like traditional painted canvas) with very effective nonskid, and the use of elaborate wooden toetails, covering boards, margin boards,coamings and hatches to dress her up yacht style.

Maybe if you used a billion staples and could live with filler in the holes?

The first guy who invents a "paint it on both surfaces" contact cement style permanent epoxy glue will make a fortune.

Buddy
03-15-2004, 11:54 AM
Norm, you are back into a form follows function meets traditional look confrontation. Little wooden catboats, built before plywood, used light strip deck material , dimensioned at least square, if not taller than wide, precisely so they could readily bend to that strong curve. On an open boat that could be left as is. On a bigger cabin boat, this kind of deck is notoriously leaky right over your bunk, therefore the use of painted canvas to keep a strong deck construction watertight without huge ongoing maintenance.

Come the days of fiberglass hulls, with either plywood decks or fiberglass glass decks, the demand for the appearance of laid teak is more as a cosmetic upgrade ( yeah I know, its "the world's best" nonskid) than any structural purpose. On a fiberglass deck, this over and over leads to maintenance time, even ruination of the core in a fiberglass deck from thousands of leaking holes.

Done over a plywood deck a la WEST, it seems much more practical, but on a boat this small,it's going to be way heavy using square strips, or way difficult and slow using thin wide strips and trying to force down all the buckling. Any you miss might lead to voids.

Thus the practicality of reduced weight and manageable construction leads to fore and aft "faux" planking over plywood on small character boat decks. Or the even more practical dynel ( looking like traditional painted canvas) with very effective nonskid, and the use of elaborate wooden toetails, covering boards, margin boards,coamings and hatches to dress her up yacht style.

Maybe if you used a billion staples and could live with filler in the holes?

The first guy who invents a "paint it on both surfaces" contact cement style permanent epoxy glue will make a fortune.

Buddy
03-15-2004, 11:54 AM
Norm, you are back into a form follows function meets traditional look confrontation. Little wooden catboats, built before plywood, used light strip deck material , dimensioned at least square, if not taller than wide, precisely so they could readily bend to that strong curve. On an open boat that could be left as is. On a bigger cabin boat, this kind of deck is notoriously leaky right over your bunk, therefore the use of painted canvas to keep a strong deck construction watertight without huge ongoing maintenance.

Come the days of fiberglass hulls, with either plywood decks or fiberglass glass decks, the demand for the appearance of laid teak is more as a cosmetic upgrade ( yeah I know, its "the world's best" nonskid) than any structural purpose. On a fiberglass deck, this over and over leads to maintenance time, even ruination of the core in a fiberglass deck from thousands of leaking holes.

Done over a plywood deck a la WEST, it seems much more practical, but on a boat this small,it's going to be way heavy using square strips, or way difficult and slow using thin wide strips and trying to force down all the buckling. Any you miss might lead to voids.

Thus the practicality of reduced weight and manageable construction leads to fore and aft "faux" planking over plywood on small character boat decks. Or the even more practical dynel ( looking like traditional painted canvas) with very effective nonskid, and the use of elaborate wooden toetails, covering boards, margin boards,coamings and hatches to dress her up yacht style.

Maybe if you used a billion staples and could live with filler in the holes?

The first guy who invents a "paint it on both surfaces" contact cement style permanent epoxy glue will make a fortune.

Buddy
03-15-2004, 11:59 AM
But if you are really determined, how about making up a few laminated boards out of 1/4" thick flat sawn teak in a few practical broad curves? Then bandsaw in 1/4" thick, edge sawn planks all with a useful precurve. That you could nudge as needed to coax a bit into place and glue down to your plywood deck.

Buddy
03-15-2004, 11:59 AM
But if you are really determined, how about making up a few laminated boards out of 1/4" thick flat sawn teak in a few practical broad curves? Then bandsaw in 1/4" thick, edge sawn planks all with a useful precurve. That you could nudge as needed to coax a bit into place and glue down to your plywood deck.

Buddy
03-15-2004, 11:59 AM
But if you are really determined, how about making up a few laminated boards out of 1/4" thick flat sawn teak in a few practical broad curves? Then bandsaw in 1/4" thick, edge sawn planks all with a useful precurve. That you could nudge as needed to coax a bit into place and glue down to your plywood deck.

Norm Bernstein
03-15-2004, 12:14 PM
Well, I admit, the idea of doing a sprung teak deck is purely for the visuals... laid teak is just soooo pretty. But, you're probably right, things would get really busy-looking if I used exceptionally narrow slats... and wider ones would be impossible to bend to the curve of a catboat.

I guess the only really practical way to do it would be 'straight', rather than sprung. The reason I'm shying away from that approach is that my side decks will be quite narrow (for the sake of maximum cockpit width), and it might look 'funny' there. Art Read's deck has relatively wide varnished boards as edging, which won't work with my design.

I guess I'm going to have to resign myself to a glassed-and-painted deck. I wouldn't mind the dynel/epoxy approach, to give me a good non-skid surface, but I think the seams between pieces of cloth would be apparent, and I'm bothered by the idea of trying to paint an intentionally rough surface that hasn't been sanded... any ideas?

Norm Bernstein
03-15-2004, 12:14 PM
Well, I admit, the idea of doing a sprung teak deck is purely for the visuals... laid teak is just soooo pretty. But, you're probably right, things would get really busy-looking if I used exceptionally narrow slats... and wider ones would be impossible to bend to the curve of a catboat.

I guess the only really practical way to do it would be 'straight', rather than sprung. The reason I'm shying away from that approach is that my side decks will be quite narrow (for the sake of maximum cockpit width), and it might look 'funny' there. Art Read's deck has relatively wide varnished boards as edging, which won't work with my design.

I guess I'm going to have to resign myself to a glassed-and-painted deck. I wouldn't mind the dynel/epoxy approach, to give me a good non-skid surface, but I think the seams between pieces of cloth would be apparent, and I'm bothered by the idea of trying to paint an intentionally rough surface that hasn't been sanded... any ideas?

Norm Bernstein
03-15-2004, 12:14 PM
Well, I admit, the idea of doing a sprung teak deck is purely for the visuals... laid teak is just soooo pretty. But, you're probably right, things would get really busy-looking if I used exceptionally narrow slats... and wider ones would be impossible to bend to the curve of a catboat.

I guess the only really practical way to do it would be 'straight', rather than sprung. The reason I'm shying away from that approach is that my side decks will be quite narrow (for the sake of maximum cockpit width), and it might look 'funny' there. Art Read's deck has relatively wide varnished boards as edging, which won't work with my design.

I guess I'm going to have to resign myself to a glassed-and-painted deck. I wouldn't mind the dynel/epoxy approach, to give me a good non-skid surface, but I think the seams between pieces of cloth would be apparent, and I'm bothered by the idea of trying to paint an intentionally rough surface that hasn't been sanded... any ideas?

Buddy
03-15-2004, 12:43 PM
Dynel comes about 60" wide, You can cover your entire foredeck with one piece. Then use a strip for your side deck. It can be joined butt to butt almost invisible, or lapped on purpose, as on a museum boat, to give a completely authenic appearance, or the joints can be filled an smoothed in an even 1/2 width.

The cloth drapes curves and rolled over edges beautufully. It has a more open weave which creates waffles. It does have sort of a fuzzy effect at first coat which can be easily sanded off. You determine how aggressive you want the nonskid by the number of coats of epoxy you use to partailly fill those depressions, allowing for further promer, paint and repainting. Read, do a test panel and experiment. Did I mention no itch when you sand? It does take more epoxy to completely fill this material, thus more weight, but it is often used to do the entire hull as well. More impact resistant than fiberglass. There is no reason you can't achieve a perfectly smooth surface with Dynel, and on your deck use a nonskid additive in your paint. Or use a combinatiuon of leaving a woven texture remaining and using nonskid paint.

It's just that Dynel's fabric has the property of standing "taller" and looks more traditional cotton than fiberglass. And oh yeah, IT DOESN"T ITCH.

Buddy
03-15-2004, 12:43 PM
Dynel comes about 60" wide, You can cover your entire foredeck with one piece. Then use a strip for your side deck. It can be joined butt to butt almost invisible, or lapped on purpose, as on a museum boat, to give a completely authenic appearance, or the joints can be filled an smoothed in an even 1/2 width.

The cloth drapes curves and rolled over edges beautufully. It has a more open weave which creates waffles. It does have sort of a fuzzy effect at first coat which can be easily sanded off. You determine how aggressive you want the nonskid by the number of coats of epoxy you use to partailly fill those depressions, allowing for further promer, paint and repainting. Read, do a test panel and experiment. Did I mention no itch when you sand? It does take more epoxy to completely fill this material, thus more weight, but it is often used to do the entire hull as well. More impact resistant than fiberglass. There is no reason you can't achieve a perfectly smooth surface with Dynel, and on your deck use a nonskid additive in your paint. Or use a combinatiuon of leaving a woven texture remaining and using nonskid paint.

It's just that Dynel's fabric has the property of standing "taller" and looks more traditional cotton than fiberglass. And oh yeah, IT DOESN"T ITCH.

Buddy
03-15-2004, 12:43 PM
Dynel comes about 60" wide, You can cover your entire foredeck with one piece. Then use a strip for your side deck. It can be joined butt to butt almost invisible, or lapped on purpose, as on a museum boat, to give a completely authenic appearance, or the joints can be filled an smoothed in an even 1/2 width.

The cloth drapes curves and rolled over edges beautufully. It has a more open weave which creates waffles. It does have sort of a fuzzy effect at first coat which can be easily sanded off. You determine how aggressive you want the nonskid by the number of coats of epoxy you use to partailly fill those depressions, allowing for further promer, paint and repainting. Read, do a test panel and experiment. Did I mention no itch when you sand? It does take more epoxy to completely fill this material, thus more weight, but it is often used to do the entire hull as well. More impact resistant than fiberglass. There is no reason you can't achieve a perfectly smooth surface with Dynel, and on your deck use a nonskid additive in your paint. Or use a combinatiuon of leaving a woven texture remaining and using nonskid paint.

It's just that Dynel's fabric has the property of standing "taller" and looks more traditional cotton than fiberglass. And oh yeah, IT DOESN"T ITCH.

JimD
03-15-2004, 01:20 PM
Check out the straight laid deck in the narrow side decks in the 'MELINDA sails' thread in Misc Boat Related. Looks pretty darn nice to me.

JimD
03-15-2004, 01:20 PM
Check out the straight laid deck in the narrow side decks in the 'MELINDA sails' thread in Misc Boat Related. Looks pretty darn nice to me.

JimD
03-15-2004, 01:20 PM
Check out the straight laid deck in the narrow side decks in the 'MELINDA sails' thread in Misc Boat Related. Looks pretty darn nice to me.

Norm Bernstein
03-15-2004, 02:54 PM
Admittedly, Art Read's boat 'Melinda Sails' does look nice... although I don't have the room for broad varnished planks along the edge. However, it might not be a bad way to go... straight planking, I mean.

If I could find some 6/4 teak, I could rip 1/4" strips on my table saw... I really don't need much; I'm guessing here, but I'd say that the foredeck, narrow side decks, and short aft deck probably don't add up to more than, say, 50 square feet or so. From a 7' 6/4 board, each 1/4" slice would be roughly 105 sq in, or roughly 2/3 sq ft. I'd need 75 strips, and based on a thin 0.080" kerf blade, I'd get 3 strips per inch of width of the 6/4 board... so I'd need 25 'width inches' x 7 ft x 6/4... totalling around 21 board-ft. Figure 25 bd-ft to account for scrap and waste, and at around $18/bd-ft, it would cost $450 or so....

Hmmm.... maybe.

Norm Bernstein
03-15-2004, 02:54 PM
Admittedly, Art Read's boat 'Melinda Sails' does look nice... although I don't have the room for broad varnished planks along the edge. However, it might not be a bad way to go... straight planking, I mean.

If I could find some 6/4 teak, I could rip 1/4" strips on my table saw... I really don't need much; I'm guessing here, but I'd say that the foredeck, narrow side decks, and short aft deck probably don't add up to more than, say, 50 square feet or so. From a 7' 6/4 board, each 1/4" slice would be roughly 105 sq in, or roughly 2/3 sq ft. I'd need 75 strips, and based on a thin 0.080" kerf blade, I'd get 3 strips per inch of width of the 6/4 board... so I'd need 25 'width inches' x 7 ft x 6/4... totalling around 21 board-ft. Figure 25 bd-ft to account for scrap and waste, and at around $18/bd-ft, it would cost $450 or so....

Hmmm.... maybe.

Norm Bernstein
03-15-2004, 02:54 PM
Admittedly, Art Read's boat 'Melinda Sails' does look nice... although I don't have the room for broad varnished planks along the edge. However, it might not be a bad way to go... straight planking, I mean.

If I could find some 6/4 teak, I could rip 1/4" strips on my table saw... I really don't need much; I'm guessing here, but I'd say that the foredeck, narrow side decks, and short aft deck probably don't add up to more than, say, 50 square feet or so. From a 7' 6/4 board, each 1/4" slice would be roughly 105 sq in, or roughly 2/3 sq ft. I'd need 75 strips, and based on a thin 0.080" kerf blade, I'd get 3 strips per inch of width of the 6/4 board... so I'd need 25 'width inches' x 7 ft x 6/4... totalling around 21 board-ft. Figure 25 bd-ft to account for scrap and waste, and at around $18/bd-ft, it would cost $450 or so....

Hmmm.... maybe.

Meerkat
03-15-2004, 06:57 PM
There's always the faux approach: Glue thin Ipe or teak or whatever over 1/4" ply and use carbon (black) or titanium white (white) colored epoxy as the "caulking". Looks quite sharp and saves oodles of effort and all those holes through the deck. Saves on weight too.

Meerkat
03-15-2004, 06:57 PM
There's always the faux approach: Glue thin Ipe or teak or whatever over 1/4" ply and use carbon (black) or titanium white (white) colored epoxy as the "caulking". Looks quite sharp and saves oodles of effort and all those holes through the deck. Saves on weight too.

Meerkat
03-15-2004, 06:57 PM
There's always the faux approach: Glue thin Ipe or teak or whatever over 1/4" ply and use carbon (black) or titanium white (white) colored epoxy as the "caulking". Looks quite sharp and saves oodles of effort and all those holes through the deck. Saves on weight too.

Todd Bradshaw
03-15-2004, 07:40 PM
Buddy, I think your epoxy contact adhesive actually already exists, after a fashion. The ski industry uses a lot of pre-preg glass layers which aren't joined until the ski is put in a press and heated where they bond together. Then again, building a press which will hold and heat a catboat deck might be a bit cost prohibitive...

Todd Bradshaw
03-15-2004, 07:40 PM
Buddy, I think your epoxy contact adhesive actually already exists, after a fashion. The ski industry uses a lot of pre-preg glass layers which aren't joined until the ski is put in a press and heated where they bond together. Then again, building a press which will hold and heat a catboat deck might be a bit cost prohibitive...

Todd Bradshaw
03-15-2004, 07:40 PM
Buddy, I think your epoxy contact adhesive actually already exists, after a fashion. The ski industry uses a lot of pre-preg glass layers which aren't joined until the ski is put in a press and heated where they bond together. Then again, building a press which will hold and heat a catboat deck might be a bit cost prohibitive...

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 09:09 AM
Meerkat, looks like your approach is about the best solution... the 'faux' method would be fine by me, and if I go with straight planking, ipe would be an excellent alternative to teak.. at a fraction of the price. I've never used ipe, but I'm told it's really durable, completely rot-free, etc... but I'm also told it's extremely hard, which means that slicing it on my cheapie table saw might be difficult.

The West System guys advocate blackened epoxy as the seam filler, but is there any reason I can't use black polysulfide caulk? It would seem to be easier....

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 09:09 AM
Meerkat, looks like your approach is about the best solution... the 'faux' method would be fine by me, and if I go with straight planking, ipe would be an excellent alternative to teak.. at a fraction of the price. I've never used ipe, but I'm told it's really durable, completely rot-free, etc... but I'm also told it's extremely hard, which means that slicing it on my cheapie table saw might be difficult.

The West System guys advocate blackened epoxy as the seam filler, but is there any reason I can't use black polysulfide caulk? It would seem to be easier....

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 09:09 AM
Meerkat, looks like your approach is about the best solution... the 'faux' method would be fine by me, and if I go with straight planking, ipe would be an excellent alternative to teak.. at a fraction of the price. I've never used ipe, but I'm told it's really durable, completely rot-free, etc... but I'm also told it's extremely hard, which means that slicing it on my cheapie table saw might be difficult.

The West System guys advocate blackened epoxy as the seam filler, but is there any reason I can't use black polysulfide caulk? It would seem to be easier....

mmd
03-16-2004, 10:00 AM
... is there any reason I can't use black polysulfide caulk? I don't see why not - I was aboard a 60-ft yacht under construction last week and managed to get the goop all over my tape measure as I was trying to get some data while they were caulking the seams in the teak-plank-deck-on-ply-base with black polysulphide. If the big boys can do it, why can't you?

mmd
03-16-2004, 10:00 AM
... is there any reason I can't use black polysulfide caulk? I don't see why not - I was aboard a 60-ft yacht under construction last week and managed to get the goop all over my tape measure as I was trying to get some data while they were caulking the seams in the teak-plank-deck-on-ply-base with black polysulphide. If the big boys can do it, why can't you?

mmd
03-16-2004, 10:00 AM
... is there any reason I can't use black polysulfide caulk? I don't see why not - I was aboard a 60-ft yacht under construction last week and managed to get the goop all over my tape measure as I was trying to get some data while they were caulking the seams in the teak-plank-deck-on-ply-base with black polysulphide. If the big boys can do it, why can't you?

Buddy
03-16-2004, 10:12 AM
But why? on the polysulphide. You are building onto a composite structure, plywood, on veneer layer thicker 1/8"to 1/4". The polysulphide is for caulking between independent strips which being fastened several inches apart are going to move a bit. Going all epoxy really should hlast longer. All the polysulphide I have seen even loses its bond in places, shrinks, and has to be touched up and eventually dug out and replaces.

Buddy
03-16-2004, 10:12 AM
But why? on the polysulphide. You are building onto a composite structure, plywood, on veneer layer thicker 1/8"to 1/4". The polysulphide is for caulking between independent strips which being fastened several inches apart are going to move a bit. Going all epoxy really should hlast longer. All the polysulphide I have seen even loses its bond in places, shrinks, and has to be touched up and eventually dug out and replaces.

Buddy
03-16-2004, 10:12 AM
But why? on the polysulphide. You are building onto a composite structure, plywood, on veneer layer thicker 1/8"to 1/4". The polysulphide is for caulking between independent strips which being fastened several inches apart are going to move a bit. Going all epoxy really should hlast longer. All the polysulphide I have seen even loses its bond in places, shrinks, and has to be touched up and eventually dug out and replaces.

JimConlin
03-16-2004, 10:34 AM
There's another reason to prefer the soft goos to epoxy/graphite. When the panel is sanded, the black dust of the epoxy-graphite gets into the wood's pores and looks just awful. It can't be coaxed out, either. It's harder than the wood so over the years, it doesn't wear away as fast. Not good. The most recent one of these i've done was with the goo from Teak Decking Systems. It's silicone based and the sanding residue is more like crumbs. Much easier to clean up. TDS will be at the Maine Boatbuilders Show.

JimConlin
03-16-2004, 10:34 AM
There's another reason to prefer the soft goos to epoxy/graphite. When the panel is sanded, the black dust of the epoxy-graphite gets into the wood's pores and looks just awful. It can't be coaxed out, either. It's harder than the wood so over the years, it doesn't wear away as fast. Not good. The most recent one of these i've done was with the goo from Teak Decking Systems. It's silicone based and the sanding residue is more like crumbs. Much easier to clean up. TDS will be at the Maine Boatbuilders Show.

JimConlin
03-16-2004, 10:34 AM
There's another reason to prefer the soft goos to epoxy/graphite. When the panel is sanded, the black dust of the epoxy-graphite gets into the wood's pores and looks just awful. It can't be coaxed out, either. It's harder than the wood so over the years, it doesn't wear away as fast. Not good. The most recent one of these i've done was with the goo from Teak Decking Systems. It's silicone based and the sanding residue is more like crumbs. Much easier to clean up. TDS will be at the Maine Boatbuilders Show.

On Vacation
03-16-2004, 10:51 AM
Just about every real teak decks have the soft caulking in it. They are always sanded to a smooth finish. In the process of caulking, the black googe is purposely over run in the seam areas and then cut down with a soft pad. But on occasions of epoxy colored seams, usually the hardwood and the areas are sealed and varnished over. But in the initial process, it too is left fat and sanded to a uniform surface along with the wooden strips. I am not a fan of the new composite stuff. Its just not what real wood is to me for decks. ON trailerable boats, less maintainance is involved with the real teak decking, left unvarnished, but at least oiled, than boats in a boat slip in the water. Just have yourself a nice cover made for the boat. This will eliminate a lot of the overall work and will make you boat finish last longer.

On Vacation
03-16-2004, 10:51 AM
Just about every real teak decks have the soft caulking in it. They are always sanded to a smooth finish. In the process of caulking, the black googe is purposely over run in the seam areas and then cut down with a soft pad. But on occasions of epoxy colored seams, usually the hardwood and the areas are sealed and varnished over. But in the initial process, it too is left fat and sanded to a uniform surface along with the wooden strips. I am not a fan of the new composite stuff. Its just not what real wood is to me for decks. ON trailerable boats, less maintainance is involved with the real teak decking, left unvarnished, but at least oiled, than boats in a boat slip in the water. Just have yourself a nice cover made for the boat. This will eliminate a lot of the overall work and will make you boat finish last longer.

On Vacation
03-16-2004, 10:51 AM
Just about every real teak decks have the soft caulking in it. They are always sanded to a smooth finish. In the process of caulking, the black googe is purposely over run in the seam areas and then cut down with a soft pad. But on occasions of epoxy colored seams, usually the hardwood and the areas are sealed and varnished over. But in the initial process, it too is left fat and sanded to a uniform surface along with the wooden strips. I am not a fan of the new composite stuff. Its just not what real wood is to me for decks. ON trailerable boats, less maintainance is involved with the real teak decking, left unvarnished, but at least oiled, than boats in a boat slip in the water. Just have yourself a nice cover made for the boat. This will eliminate a lot of the overall work and will make you boat finish last longer.

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 11:01 AM
The only reason I might prefer polysulfide is easier application... the stuff is already in a caulking gun cartridge, and since I've done it before, I have experience with it. I understand that in this sort of 'faux' decking (thin strips laid in epoxy, rather than structural strips screwed to the deckbeams), the seam compund isn't functional as in a real deck. Blackened epoxy would probably last forever, though... and if the strips were well sanded before the seams were filled, I'd guess that the sanding dust getting into the pores of the wood would be less of a problem. Applying the blackened epoxy might be more difficult... unless I buy some of those empty caulking gun tubes, and fill them myself.

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 11:01 AM
The only reason I might prefer polysulfide is easier application... the stuff is already in a caulking gun cartridge, and since I've done it before, I have experience with it. I understand that in this sort of 'faux' decking (thin strips laid in epoxy, rather than structural strips screwed to the deckbeams), the seam compund isn't functional as in a real deck. Blackened epoxy would probably last forever, though... and if the strips were well sanded before the seams were filled, I'd guess that the sanding dust getting into the pores of the wood would be less of a problem. Applying the blackened epoxy might be more difficult... unless I buy some of those empty caulking gun tubes, and fill them myself.

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 11:01 AM
The only reason I might prefer polysulfide is easier application... the stuff is already in a caulking gun cartridge, and since I've done it before, I have experience with it. I understand that in this sort of 'faux' decking (thin strips laid in epoxy, rather than structural strips screwed to the deckbeams), the seam compund isn't functional as in a real deck. Blackened epoxy would probably last forever, though... and if the strips were well sanded before the seams were filled, I'd guess that the sanding dust getting into the pores of the wood would be less of a problem. Applying the blackened epoxy might be more difficult... unless I buy some of those empty caulking gun tubes, and fill them myself.

On Vacation
03-16-2004, 11:15 AM
Out of the weather, and working with the colored epoxy, you can use a very slow hardener and a ziplock baggie to apply the mixed resin. Using epoxy with a natural finished deck is really not recommended with the expansion and contraction of the wood. Don't sand your wood without the seams filled. You still need to level it all down after doing either way. You must leave each one high in the uncured stage for this job. Sometimes air will get behind the seam joints too. Apply going foward away from your body when filling joints.

[ 03-16-2004, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

On Vacation
03-16-2004, 11:15 AM
Out of the weather, and working with the colored epoxy, you can use a very slow hardener and a ziplock baggie to apply the mixed resin. Using epoxy with a natural finished deck is really not recommended with the expansion and contraction of the wood. Don't sand your wood without the seams filled. You still need to level it all down after doing either way. You must leave each one high in the uncured stage for this job. Sometimes air will get behind the seam joints too. Apply going foward away from your body when filling joints.

[ 03-16-2004, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

On Vacation
03-16-2004, 11:15 AM
Out of the weather, and working with the colored epoxy, you can use a very slow hardener and a ziplock baggie to apply the mixed resin. Using epoxy with a natural finished deck is really not recommended with the expansion and contraction of the wood. Don't sand your wood without the seams filled. You still need to level it all down after doing either way. You must leave each one high in the uncured stage for this job. Sometimes air will get behind the seam joints too. Apply going foward away from your body when filling joints.

[ 03-16-2004, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 12:03 PM
Using epoxy with a natural finished deck is really not recommended with the expansion and contraction of the wood. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'd like to leave the deck either bare (naturally weathered to a silvery gray), or coated with something like Semco Clear teak sealer, which I like because it provides at least a little protection without looking obvious (I don't like Cetol and similar finishes).

If your metion of epoxy not being recommended with 'natural' finishes relates to expansion/contraction, then perhaps I'm better off with polysulfide in the seams... or are you suggesting that a 'faux' deck, set in epoxy, MUST be varnished or otherwise sealed?

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 12:03 PM
Using epoxy with a natural finished deck is really not recommended with the expansion and contraction of the wood. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'd like to leave the deck either bare (naturally weathered to a silvery gray), or coated with something like Semco Clear teak sealer, which I like because it provides at least a little protection without looking obvious (I don't like Cetol and similar finishes).

If your metion of epoxy not being recommended with 'natural' finishes relates to expansion/contraction, then perhaps I'm better off with polysulfide in the seams... or are you suggesting that a 'faux' deck, set in epoxy, MUST be varnished or otherwise sealed?

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 12:03 PM
Using epoxy with a natural finished deck is really not recommended with the expansion and contraction of the wood. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'd like to leave the deck either bare (naturally weathered to a silvery gray), or coated with something like Semco Clear teak sealer, which I like because it provides at least a little protection without looking obvious (I don't like Cetol and similar finishes).

If your metion of epoxy not being recommended with 'natural' finishes relates to expansion/contraction, then perhaps I'm better off with polysulfide in the seams... or are you suggesting that a 'faux' deck, set in epoxy, MUST be varnished or otherwise sealed?

On Vacation
03-16-2004, 12:28 PM
My comments come from my own experience and is only one of the many that exists in dealing with teak and caulking. This is the product that works for me. We also will seal the raw seams with a product called e-bond, or you can use their sealer for it. You can also seal the end grains in the seams with a thinned epoxy. As shown on this site, they recomment using the tubes. We also will mix this product in increments as we do the project. The shot of the side deck is from a 38 Spray and shows that it is left ot run wild. Some sealers such as Cetol sometimes will soften over time the rubber. SO check on this when using any product to make sure the base is of a mineral spirits or oil base component. As stated, this is one of many ways of doing this project for you.

http://www.detcomarine.com/dmpdts.htm

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/ninarob2/page22_files/Caulked_port_side.jpg

On Vacation
03-16-2004, 12:28 PM
My comments come from my own experience and is only one of the many that exists in dealing with teak and caulking. This is the product that works for me. We also will seal the raw seams with a product called e-bond, or you can use their sealer for it. You can also seal the end grains in the seams with a thinned epoxy. As shown on this site, they recomment using the tubes. We also will mix this product in increments as we do the project. The shot of the side deck is from a 38 Spray and shows that it is left ot run wild. Some sealers such as Cetol sometimes will soften over time the rubber. SO check on this when using any product to make sure the base is of a mineral spirits or oil base component. As stated, this is one of many ways of doing this project for you.

http://www.detcomarine.com/dmpdts.htm

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/ninarob2/page22_files/Caulked_port_side.jpg

On Vacation
03-16-2004, 12:28 PM
My comments come from my own experience and is only one of the many that exists in dealing with teak and caulking. This is the product that works for me. We also will seal the raw seams with a product called e-bond, or you can use their sealer for it. You can also seal the end grains in the seams with a thinned epoxy. As shown on this site, they recomment using the tubes. We also will mix this product in increments as we do the project. The shot of the side deck is from a 38 Spray and shows that it is left ot run wild. Some sealers such as Cetol sometimes will soften over time the rubber. SO check on this when using any product to make sure the base is of a mineral spirits or oil base component. As stated, this is one of many ways of doing this project for you.

http://www.detcomarine.com/dmpdts.htm

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/ninarob2/page22_files/Caulked_port_side.jpg

Art Read
03-16-2004, 01:05 PM
Norm... For what it's worth... I think the "faux" overlay would certainly work with your project. The only real reasons for it are "looks" and perhaps better traction if like me, you don't like the canvas/dynel with anti-slip approach. My decks were 6mm ply, coated with epoxy then laid with 5/16" teak strips set in 3M 5200. No screws. (The ply was set in bedding compound and well screwed and bunged before epoxy coating) I used those little, plastic "tile spacers" to keep the seams width uniform and then filled 'em with "Sikaflex Teak deck Seam Compound" just like Oyster describes. It seems to be holding up wonderfully, but is unfortunately no longer in production. I'm sure there is a perfectly good substitute available somewhere, but I haven't researched it yet.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/p5c50df1621f6185df1b88124ebfb7ad4/fdc7060a.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/pfb1d17f9e686744fe392f609a22b0984/fdc70af4.jpg

As for you "springing 'em into place, I toyed with that idea too. One "experimental" trial fitting convinced me that with the thin "overlay" we're talking about, that way lies madness! I'm perfectly happy with 'em laid straight. Side decks out board of your cockpit coaming are awfully handy to have as wide as possible. I just use a cockpit cover secured over the coaming. Pretty hard to reach the far side from the dock without being able to stand outside of the cockpit while you're doing it... With the catboat's naturaly wide beam, I'd consider perhaps revising your cockpit dimensions a bit to give you a little more room to work with. Seems to me most traditional catboats had pretty generous sides decks, no? That would solve your dilemma about the covering board too. Just a thought...

Art Read
03-16-2004, 01:05 PM
Norm... For what it's worth... I think the "faux" overlay would certainly work with your project. The only real reasons for it are "looks" and perhaps better traction if like me, you don't like the canvas/dynel with anti-slip approach. My decks were 6mm ply, coated with epoxy then laid with 5/16" teak strips set in 3M 5200. No screws. (The ply was set in bedding compound and well screwed and bunged before epoxy coating) I used those little, plastic "tile spacers" to keep the seams width uniform and then filled 'em with "Sikaflex Teak deck Seam Compound" just like Oyster describes. It seems to be holding up wonderfully, but is unfortunately no longer in production. I'm sure there is a perfectly good substitute available somewhere, but I haven't researched it yet.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/p5c50df1621f6185df1b88124ebfb7ad4/fdc7060a.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/pfb1d17f9e686744fe392f609a22b0984/fdc70af4.jpg

As for you "springing 'em into place, I toyed with that idea too. One "experimental" trial fitting convinced me that with the thin "overlay" we're talking about, that way lies madness! I'm perfectly happy with 'em laid straight. Side decks out board of your cockpit coaming are awfully handy to have as wide as possible. I just use a cockpit cover secured over the coaming. Pretty hard to reach the far side from the dock without being able to stand outside of the cockpit while you're doing it... With the catboat's naturaly wide beam, I'd consider perhaps revising your cockpit dimensions a bit to give you a little more room to work with. Seems to me most traditional catboats had pretty generous sides decks, no? That would solve your dilemma about the covering board too. Just a thought...

Art Read
03-16-2004, 01:05 PM
Norm... For what it's worth... I think the "faux" overlay would certainly work with your project. The only real reasons for it are "looks" and perhaps better traction if like me, you don't like the canvas/dynel with anti-slip approach. My decks were 6mm ply, coated with epoxy then laid with 5/16" teak strips set in 3M 5200. No screws. (The ply was set in bedding compound and well screwed and bunged before epoxy coating) I used those little, plastic "tile spacers" to keep the seams width uniform and then filled 'em with "Sikaflex Teak deck Seam Compound" just like Oyster describes. It seems to be holding up wonderfully, but is unfortunately no longer in production. I'm sure there is a perfectly good substitute available somewhere, but I haven't researched it yet.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/p5c50df1621f6185df1b88124ebfb7ad4/fdc7060a.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/pfb1d17f9e686744fe392f609a22b0984/fdc70af4.jpg

As for you "springing 'em into place, I toyed with that idea too. One "experimental" trial fitting convinced me that with the thin "overlay" we're talking about, that way lies madness! I'm perfectly happy with 'em laid straight. Side decks out board of your cockpit coaming are awfully handy to have as wide as possible. I just use a cockpit cover secured over the coaming. Pretty hard to reach the far side from the dock without being able to stand outside of the cockpit while you're doing it... With the catboat's naturaly wide beam, I'd consider perhaps revising your cockpit dimensions a bit to give you a little more room to work with. Seems to me most traditional catboats had pretty generous sides decks, no? That would solve your dilemma about the covering board too. Just a thought...

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 01:29 PM
Art, thanks for the comments... very helpful. I've been admiring the photos of your boat for a while now.. lovely!

So far, from all the comments, the one thing I've determined for certain is that I'm not going to try a 'sprung' deck, but will go with a straight-laid deck, in 'faux' fashion, with thin strips set in epoxy. Still undetermined will be the wood species and the seam compound.

As for the wood, I would like teak, of course, but not sure the cost is worth it. Ipe is a good possibility: strong, durable, relatively inexpensive and looks a bit like teak, once it's weathered, but I'm unsure of its gluing characteristics. Alaskan yellow cedar was mentioned as a possibility, but I don't like the color.

I'm still on the fence as far as the seam compound is concerned. It will be mostly decorative, although I do want to seal the holes left by the screws that will be used between strips as a clamp, while the bedding epoxy cures. Epoxy would be longest lasting, but unforgiving of exapnsion/contraction (I want to leave the deck natural). Polysulphide is something I've used and have experience. One of the Detco products might be a possibility, as Oyster mentioned.

As for the side decks, I agree that catboats have traditionally been built with generous space between coaming and sheer. I'd like to keep my side decks narrow, to maximize cockpit room. The hull has a fairly low freeboard back near the cockpit, and I'm concerned about having enough space for comfortable bench seats, unless I keep the side decks narrow. I definately won't have space for boards along the sheer, like in your boat; instead, my decking will run right to the sheer, and the edges will be covered by the gunwale (I'm not sure about an explicit toerail yet). Do you think a 6" or 8" side deck is too narrow?

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 01:29 PM
Art, thanks for the comments... very helpful. I've been admiring the photos of your boat for a while now.. lovely!

So far, from all the comments, the one thing I've determined for certain is that I'm not going to try a 'sprung' deck, but will go with a straight-laid deck, in 'faux' fashion, with thin strips set in epoxy. Still undetermined will be the wood species and the seam compound.

As for the wood, I would like teak, of course, but not sure the cost is worth it. Ipe is a good possibility: strong, durable, relatively inexpensive and looks a bit like teak, once it's weathered, but I'm unsure of its gluing characteristics. Alaskan yellow cedar was mentioned as a possibility, but I don't like the color.

I'm still on the fence as far as the seam compound is concerned. It will be mostly decorative, although I do want to seal the holes left by the screws that will be used between strips as a clamp, while the bedding epoxy cures. Epoxy would be longest lasting, but unforgiving of exapnsion/contraction (I want to leave the deck natural). Polysulphide is something I've used and have experience. One of the Detco products might be a possibility, as Oyster mentioned.

As for the side decks, I agree that catboats have traditionally been built with generous space between coaming and sheer. I'd like to keep my side decks narrow, to maximize cockpit room. The hull has a fairly low freeboard back near the cockpit, and I'm concerned about having enough space for comfortable bench seats, unless I keep the side decks narrow. I definately won't have space for boards along the sheer, like in your boat; instead, my decking will run right to the sheer, and the edges will be covered by the gunwale (I'm not sure about an explicit toerail yet). Do you think a 6" or 8" side deck is too narrow?

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 01:29 PM
Art, thanks for the comments... very helpful. I've been admiring the photos of your boat for a while now.. lovely!

So far, from all the comments, the one thing I've determined for certain is that I'm not going to try a 'sprung' deck, but will go with a straight-laid deck, in 'faux' fashion, with thin strips set in epoxy. Still undetermined will be the wood species and the seam compound.

As for the wood, I would like teak, of course, but not sure the cost is worth it. Ipe is a good possibility: strong, durable, relatively inexpensive and looks a bit like teak, once it's weathered, but I'm unsure of its gluing characteristics. Alaskan yellow cedar was mentioned as a possibility, but I don't like the color.

I'm still on the fence as far as the seam compound is concerned. It will be mostly decorative, although I do want to seal the holes left by the screws that will be used between strips as a clamp, while the bedding epoxy cures. Epoxy would be longest lasting, but unforgiving of exapnsion/contraction (I want to leave the deck natural). Polysulphide is something I've used and have experience. One of the Detco products might be a possibility, as Oyster mentioned.

As for the side decks, I agree that catboats have traditionally been built with generous space between coaming and sheer. I'd like to keep my side decks narrow, to maximize cockpit room. The hull has a fairly low freeboard back near the cockpit, and I'm concerned about having enough space for comfortable bench seats, unless I keep the side decks narrow. I definately won't have space for boards along the sheer, like in your boat; instead, my decking will run right to the sheer, and the edges will be covered by the gunwale (I'm not sure about an explicit toerail yet). Do you think a 6" or 8" side deck is too narrow?

Buddy
03-16-2004, 02:33 PM
One of the world's most favorite little wooden sailboats, the Herreshoff 12 1/2 ( also the White Haven 12 1/2" centerboard development) have smaller sidedecks ( really none at all, that's how they get the exceptional room in the cockpit and comfortable seat backs- the slanted coamings) than 6" so I guess you can't rule it out on tradition. The new Garden TomCat 12 catboat article states plans coming out will have a wider cockpit, and narrower that those on the prototype in the pictures. And this was designed by an 80 plus year old absolutely gifted pro who's having second thoughts about how it came out.

He's right, do you have comfortable leg room between you seats and the centerboard trunk, or will all atwartships facing seating lie aft of the trunk?

Myself, I like sidedecks wide enough to plant my foot athwartships. If there's no toerail , then 3/4's of a foot.

So many competing requirements to resolve in designing a boat. You're the designer of this one

Buddy
03-16-2004, 02:33 PM
One of the world's most favorite little wooden sailboats, the Herreshoff 12 1/2 ( also the White Haven 12 1/2" centerboard development) have smaller sidedecks ( really none at all, that's how they get the exceptional room in the cockpit and comfortable seat backs- the slanted coamings) than 6" so I guess you can't rule it out on tradition. The new Garden TomCat 12 catboat article states plans coming out will have a wider cockpit, and narrower that those on the prototype in the pictures. And this was designed by an 80 plus year old absolutely gifted pro who's having second thoughts about how it came out.

He's right, do you have comfortable leg room between you seats and the centerboard trunk, or will all atwartships facing seating lie aft of the trunk?

Myself, I like sidedecks wide enough to plant my foot athwartships. If there's no toerail , then 3/4's of a foot.

So many competing requirements to resolve in designing a boat. You're the designer of this one

Buddy
03-16-2004, 02:33 PM
One of the world's most favorite little wooden sailboats, the Herreshoff 12 1/2 ( also the White Haven 12 1/2" centerboard development) have smaller sidedecks ( really none at all, that's how they get the exceptional room in the cockpit and comfortable seat backs- the slanted coamings) than 6" so I guess you can't rule it out on tradition. The new Garden TomCat 12 catboat article states plans coming out will have a wider cockpit, and narrower that those on the prototype in the pictures. And this was designed by an 80 plus year old absolutely gifted pro who's having second thoughts about how it came out.

He's right, do you have comfortable leg room between you seats and the centerboard trunk, or will all atwartships facing seating lie aft of the trunk?

Myself, I like sidedecks wide enough to plant my foot athwartships. If there's no toerail , then 3/4's of a foot.

So many competing requirements to resolve in designing a boat. You're the designer of this one

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 04:27 PM
Calling me a designer, Buddy, is a nice compliment, but an undeserved one. I'm an amateur woodbutcher, nothing more, foolhardy enough to take a perfectly fine plan from a reputable and experienced naval architect, and pervert it mercilessly to my own particular prejudices!

I agree about being comfortable in the cockpit, and not having to 'knock knees' with whoever is sitting opposite me. About half of the length of the cokpit, at the forward end, will have the centerboard trunk in the middle... but the portion behind that should have plenty of leg room. The design has relatively low freeboard, so the seats will be a compromise, possibly not quite as low, relative to the coaming, as I'd like.... but I really don't want my knees in my face as I sail, so placing them any lower is out.

I figure that a 6" or 7" side deck will suffice. Of course, I'd like it wider, but in the tradeoff between cockpit space and deck space, cockpit space will win out. I'll be sailing this boat from a dock, and I figure it will be easy to step onto a seat from dock level, so the side decks won't be critical.

Actually, there won't even be much reason to ever venture forward onto the foredeck, either. The peak and throat halyards will of course be routed back to the cockpit, as will a couple of lazyjack lines (to make it easy to fit the sail cover). About the only reaon to have to go forward would be anchoring, although I suspect that, when using a light lunch hook, that can be done from the side of the cockpit, when in very protected waters. I'm NOT planning to EVER take this boat out of East Greenwich Bay!

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 04:27 PM
Calling me a designer, Buddy, is a nice compliment, but an undeserved one. I'm an amateur woodbutcher, nothing more, foolhardy enough to take a perfectly fine plan from a reputable and experienced naval architect, and pervert it mercilessly to my own particular prejudices!

I agree about being comfortable in the cockpit, and not having to 'knock knees' with whoever is sitting opposite me. About half of the length of the cokpit, at the forward end, will have the centerboard trunk in the middle... but the portion behind that should have plenty of leg room. The design has relatively low freeboard, so the seats will be a compromise, possibly not quite as low, relative to the coaming, as I'd like.... but I really don't want my knees in my face as I sail, so placing them any lower is out.

I figure that a 6" or 7" side deck will suffice. Of course, I'd like it wider, but in the tradeoff between cockpit space and deck space, cockpit space will win out. I'll be sailing this boat from a dock, and I figure it will be easy to step onto a seat from dock level, so the side decks won't be critical.

Actually, there won't even be much reason to ever venture forward onto the foredeck, either. The peak and throat halyards will of course be routed back to the cockpit, as will a couple of lazyjack lines (to make it easy to fit the sail cover). About the only reaon to have to go forward would be anchoring, although I suspect that, when using a light lunch hook, that can be done from the side of the cockpit, when in very protected waters. I'm NOT planning to EVER take this boat out of East Greenwich Bay!

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 04:27 PM
Calling me a designer, Buddy, is a nice compliment, but an undeserved one. I'm an amateur woodbutcher, nothing more, foolhardy enough to take a perfectly fine plan from a reputable and experienced naval architect, and pervert it mercilessly to my own particular prejudices!

I agree about being comfortable in the cockpit, and not having to 'knock knees' with whoever is sitting opposite me. About half of the length of the cokpit, at the forward end, will have the centerboard trunk in the middle... but the portion behind that should have plenty of leg room. The design has relatively low freeboard, so the seats will be a compromise, possibly not quite as low, relative to the coaming, as I'd like.... but I really don't want my knees in my face as I sail, so placing them any lower is out.

I figure that a 6" or 7" side deck will suffice. Of course, I'd like it wider, but in the tradeoff between cockpit space and deck space, cockpit space will win out. I'll be sailing this boat from a dock, and I figure it will be easy to step onto a seat from dock level, so the side decks won't be critical.

Actually, there won't even be much reason to ever venture forward onto the foredeck, either. The peak and throat halyards will of course be routed back to the cockpit, as will a couple of lazyjack lines (to make it easy to fit the sail cover). About the only reaon to have to go forward would be anchoring, although I suspect that, when using a light lunch hook, that can be done from the side of the cockpit, when in very protected waters. I'm NOT planning to EVER take this boat out of East Greenwich Bay!

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 04:44 PM
Buddy, I located some photos of the Haven 12 1/2 on the web, and it's almost precisely what I was planning on, i.e., a very narrow side-deck. If it was good enough for Herreshoff... smile.gif

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 04:44 PM
Buddy, I located some photos of the Haven 12 1/2 on the web, and it's almost precisely what I was planning on, i.e., a very narrow side-deck. If it was good enough for Herreshoff... smile.gif

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 04:44 PM
Buddy, I located some photos of the Haven 12 1/2 on the web, and it's almost precisely what I was planning on, i.e., a very narrow side-deck. If it was good enough for Herreshoff... smile.gif

Jon Etheredge
03-16-2004, 04:46 PM
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pb26e4e047231297bf10610fac13f1525/fa5f87d5.jpg

This is the foredeck of the little 13' catboat that I built about 6 or 8 years ago. The deck is 1/4" thick planking that is epoxy glued to a 5mm substrate of occume ply. The faux caulking seams are filled with epoxy mixed with graphite powder. If I were to do it again, I would use Detco compound instead. As Jim Conlin pointed out, keeping the black dust from the colored epoxy out of the wood grain is almost impossible.

I laid a psuedo covering board prior to laying the fore and aft straight layed deck planking. The covering board is approximately 6-8 inches wide and completely covers the side decks. The covering board is sawn to the curve of the deck edge and consists of 2 pieces joined with a hook scarf at the midpoint of the boat.

I don't have a detail photo that shows the side deck but could shoot one this coming weekend if you are interested.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pd4265f5f1843a87bc159d58a84518088/fa5f8aa0.jpg

Jon Etheredge
03-16-2004, 04:46 PM
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pb26e4e047231297bf10610fac13f1525/fa5f87d5.jpg

This is the foredeck of the little 13' catboat that I built about 6 or 8 years ago. The deck is 1/4" thick planking that is epoxy glued to a 5mm substrate of occume ply. The faux caulking seams are filled with epoxy mixed with graphite powder. If I were to do it again, I would use Detco compound instead. As Jim Conlin pointed out, keeping the black dust from the colored epoxy out of the wood grain is almost impossible.

I laid a psuedo covering board prior to laying the fore and aft straight layed deck planking. The covering board is approximately 6-8 inches wide and completely covers the side decks. The covering board is sawn to the curve of the deck edge and consists of 2 pieces joined with a hook scarf at the midpoint of the boat.

I don't have a detail photo that shows the side deck but could shoot one this coming weekend if you are interested.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pd4265f5f1843a87bc159d58a84518088/fa5f8aa0.jpg

Jon Etheredge
03-16-2004, 04:46 PM
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pb26e4e047231297bf10610fac13f1525/fa5f87d5.jpg

This is the foredeck of the little 13' catboat that I built about 6 or 8 years ago. The deck is 1/4" thick planking that is epoxy glued to a 5mm substrate of occume ply. The faux caulking seams are filled with epoxy mixed with graphite powder. If I were to do it again, I would use Detco compound instead. As Jim Conlin pointed out, keeping the black dust from the colored epoxy out of the wood grain is almost impossible.

I laid a psuedo covering board prior to laying the fore and aft straight layed deck planking. The covering board is approximately 6-8 inches wide and completely covers the side decks. The covering board is sawn to the curve of the deck edge and consists of 2 pieces joined with a hook scarf at the midpoint of the boat.

I don't have a detail photo that shows the side deck but could shoot one this coming weekend if you are interested.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pd4265f5f1843a87bc159d58a84518088/fa5f8aa0.jpg

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 05:45 PM
Jon, that is an absloutely stunning boat! I'd be very interested in seeing more of her, whatever photos you have, etc., and building descriptions, etc. It looks remarkably close to mine... I'm intending essentially the same layout and finishing details.

You said that your covering board (I presume you mean the wide edge board around the sheer) actually extends through the side decks... how did you build it? Is it pieced?

In case you didn't see it, mine (under construction) is detailed at http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 05:45 PM
Jon, that is an absloutely stunning boat! I'd be very interested in seeing more of her, whatever photos you have, etc., and building descriptions, etc. It looks remarkably close to mine... I'm intending essentially the same layout and finishing details.

You said that your covering board (I presume you mean the wide edge board around the sheer) actually extends through the side decks... how did you build it? Is it pieced?

In case you didn't see it, mine (under construction) is detailed at http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 05:45 PM
Jon, that is an absloutely stunning boat! I'd be very interested in seeing more of her, whatever photos you have, etc., and building descriptions, etc. It looks remarkably close to mine... I'm intending essentially the same layout and finishing details.

You said that your covering board (I presume you mean the wide edge board around the sheer) actually extends through the side decks... how did you build it? Is it pieced?

In case you didn't see it, mine (under construction) is detailed at http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 05:46 PM
Sorry, I missed the part where you described the construction of the side deck...

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 05:46 PM
Sorry, I missed the part where you described the construction of the side deck...

Norm Bernstein
03-16-2004, 05:46 PM
Sorry, I missed the part where you described the construction of the side deck...

Jon Etheredge
03-16-2004, 10:36 PM
Norm,

Thanks for the compliment.

Yes, I have been watching your progress. The hull looks good.

The wide plank around the edge of the deck is what I am calling a covering board.

I will shoot some additional photos this weekend to give you a better idea about the side decks. I won't be able to get them posted until early next week though.

Jon Etheredge
03-16-2004, 10:36 PM
Norm,

Thanks for the compliment.

Yes, I have been watching your progress. The hull looks good.

The wide plank around the edge of the deck is what I am calling a covering board.

I will shoot some additional photos this weekend to give you a better idea about the side decks. I won't be able to get them posted until early next week though.

Jon Etheredge
03-16-2004, 10:36 PM
Norm,

Thanks for the compliment.

Yes, I have been watching your progress. The hull looks good.

The wide plank around the edge of the deck is what I am calling a covering board.

I will shoot some additional photos this weekend to give you a better idea about the side decks. I won't be able to get them posted until early next week though.

JimConlin
03-17-2004, 01:46 AM
The other issue about the width of a side-deck, especially in a shallow, unballasted boat like a catboat, is the amount of buoyancy which the immersed side-deck offers when (not if) the boat is knocked down. Have fun with those calculations!

JimConlin
03-17-2004, 01:46 AM
The other issue about the width of a side-deck, especially in a shallow, unballasted boat like a catboat, is the amount of buoyancy which the immersed side-deck offers when (not if) the boat is knocked down. Have fun with those calculations!

JimConlin
03-17-2004, 01:46 AM
The other issue about the width of a side-deck, especially in a shallow, unballasted boat like a catboat, is the amount of buoyancy which the immersed side-deck offers when (not if) the boat is knocked down. Have fun with those calculations!

Meerkat
03-17-2004, 03:57 AM
The faux method I suggested does not use thickness of planking of a conventional laid deck. We're talking 1/4", or so, thick. It's fully glued to the underlay and isn't going to move like thicker stuff. I think that's the reason why faux epoxy caulk works and the regular polysulphide might not. There's not a deep seam to retain the stuff.

I've read that the best way to do the faux seaming is to mask (tape) each seam before laying down the epoxy "caulk". Sounds tedious, but you have to have either money to do it right or the time to fake it cheap ;)

On a more practical note, on a small boat, a faux deck is not going to be as heavy as the real thing. Perhaps more important in a c/b boat than a keeler.

Meerkat
03-17-2004, 03:57 AM
The faux method I suggested does not use thickness of planking of a conventional laid deck. We're talking 1/4", or so, thick. It's fully glued to the underlay and isn't going to move like thicker stuff. I think that's the reason why faux epoxy caulk works and the regular polysulphide might not. There's not a deep seam to retain the stuff.

I've read that the best way to do the faux seaming is to mask (tape) each seam before laying down the epoxy "caulk". Sounds tedious, but you have to have either money to do it right or the time to fake it cheap ;)

On a more practical note, on a small boat, a faux deck is not going to be as heavy as the real thing. Perhaps more important in a c/b boat than a keeler.

Meerkat
03-17-2004, 03:57 AM
The faux method I suggested does not use thickness of planking of a conventional laid deck. We're talking 1/4", or so, thick. It's fully glued to the underlay and isn't going to move like thicker stuff. I think that's the reason why faux epoxy caulk works and the regular polysulphide might not. There's not a deep seam to retain the stuff.

I've read that the best way to do the faux seaming is to mask (tape) each seam before laying down the epoxy "caulk". Sounds tedious, but you have to have either money to do it right or the time to fake it cheap ;)

On a more practical note, on a small boat, a faux deck is not going to be as heavy as the real thing. Perhaps more important in a c/b boat than a keeler.

Norm Bernstein
03-17-2004, 09:24 AM
I've used polysuphide on several teak-laid dockboxes like the one shown at the top of this thread. They were built with pre-milled teak strips that have a caulking rabbet only 3/16" or less in depth... I've never had a problem with the caulk staying put, even though I don't use any seam primer as recommended by the caulk manufacturer (something that I'd definately do on a faux deck with 1/4" strips). If it DID fail, I'd easily be able to reef out the groove and re-caulk. Admittedly, an epoxy would last longer, but now you've all got me concerned about sanding dust from the epoxy getting into the pores of the decking strips!

As for the width of the side decks, yes, I understand the bouyancy arguments... but I've seen a fair number of examples now, of catboats with narrow side decks, to see that it is ocasionally done that way. I may compromise a bit, and leave 7-8" or so... but not much more; I really want a generous cockpit!

Jon, the 'covering board' effect is lovely... and I'll be thinking about it. The biggest problem for me would be thickness planing those boards to match the strip thickness... along with the cost.

Norm Bernstein
03-17-2004, 09:24 AM
I've used polysuphide on several teak-laid dockboxes like the one shown at the top of this thread. They were built with pre-milled teak strips that have a caulking rabbet only 3/16" or less in depth... I've never had a problem with the caulk staying put, even though I don't use any seam primer as recommended by the caulk manufacturer (something that I'd definately do on a faux deck with 1/4" strips). If it DID fail, I'd easily be able to reef out the groove and re-caulk. Admittedly, an epoxy would last longer, but now you've all got me concerned about sanding dust from the epoxy getting into the pores of the decking strips!

As for the width of the side decks, yes, I understand the bouyancy arguments... but I've seen a fair number of examples now, of catboats with narrow side decks, to see that it is ocasionally done that way. I may compromise a bit, and leave 7-8" or so... but not much more; I really want a generous cockpit!

Jon, the 'covering board' effect is lovely... and I'll be thinking about it. The biggest problem for me would be thickness planing those boards to match the strip thickness... along with the cost.

Norm Bernstein
03-17-2004, 09:24 AM
I've used polysuphide on several teak-laid dockboxes like the one shown at the top of this thread. They were built with pre-milled teak strips that have a caulking rabbet only 3/16" or less in depth... I've never had a problem with the caulk staying put, even though I don't use any seam primer as recommended by the caulk manufacturer (something that I'd definately do on a faux deck with 1/4" strips). If it DID fail, I'd easily be able to reef out the groove and re-caulk. Admittedly, an epoxy would last longer, but now you've all got me concerned about sanding dust from the epoxy getting into the pores of the decking strips!

As for the width of the side decks, yes, I understand the bouyancy arguments... but I've seen a fair number of examples now, of catboats with narrow side decks, to see that it is ocasionally done that way. I may compromise a bit, and leave 7-8" or so... but not much more; I really want a generous cockpit!

Jon, the 'covering board' effect is lovely... and I'll be thinking about it. The biggest problem for me would be thickness planing those boards to match the strip thickness... along with the cost.

Buddy
03-17-2004, 09:59 AM
You could get a cabinent shop to bandsaw on 3/4" thick board into two 3/8", then run in thru their thickness planer to get two book matched 1/4"+ covering board blanks. BTW, the reserve bouyancy is not only increased by the width of the sidedeck, but also the height of the coamings. For safety, you really ought to put flotation bag(s) in the bow as this thing will likely float, butbow down and unable to self recover. The Marshall people have a kit made up from Kayak bouyancy bags, shock cords, and eyestraps for their 15' Sandpiper for $75. I have one in my MarshCat. To really make the boat self rescuing, you ought to have additional bouyancy under the side decks near the stern. Use more flotation bags or foam block, milk jugs inside a plywood baffle.... Read plans for Bolger's Bobcat or the recent WBissue with the TomCat and you can see them there.
No, I haven't capsized the MarshCat....yet.

Buddy
03-17-2004, 09:59 AM
You could get a cabinent shop to bandsaw on 3/4" thick board into two 3/8", then run in thru their thickness planer to get two book matched 1/4"+ covering board blanks. BTW, the reserve bouyancy is not only increased by the width of the sidedeck, but also the height of the coamings. For safety, you really ought to put flotation bag(s) in the bow as this thing will likely float, butbow down and unable to self recover. The Marshall people have a kit made up from Kayak bouyancy bags, shock cords, and eyestraps for their 15' Sandpiper for $75. I have one in my MarshCat. To really make the boat self rescuing, you ought to have additional bouyancy under the side decks near the stern. Use more flotation bags or foam block, milk jugs inside a plywood baffle.... Read plans for Bolger's Bobcat or the recent WBissue with the TomCat and you can see them there.
No, I haven't capsized the MarshCat....yet.

Buddy
03-17-2004, 09:59 AM
You could get a cabinent shop to bandsaw on 3/4" thick board into two 3/8", then run in thru their thickness planer to get two book matched 1/4"+ covering board blanks. BTW, the reserve bouyancy is not only increased by the width of the sidedeck, but also the height of the coamings. For safety, you really ought to put flotation bag(s) in the bow as this thing will likely float, butbow down and unable to self recover. The Marshall people have a kit made up from Kayak bouyancy bags, shock cords, and eyestraps for their 15' Sandpiper for $75. I have one in my MarshCat. To really make the boat self rescuing, you ought to have additional bouyancy under the side decks near the stern. Use more flotation bags or foam block, milk jugs inside a plywood baffle.... Read plans for Bolger's Bobcat or the recent WBissue with the TomCat and you can see them there.
No, I haven't capsized the MarshCat....yet.

Venchka
03-17-2004, 10:39 AM
Art, Jon, Anyone else:

What wood did Ya'll use for the covering boards and deck strips? Art, you said teak for deck, what wood is the covering board? Would yellow cedar or doug-fir work on a smallish boat?

Venchka
03-17-2004, 10:39 AM
Art, Jon, Anyone else:

What wood did Ya'll use for the covering boards and deck strips? Art, you said teak for deck, what wood is the covering board? Would yellow cedar or doug-fir work on a smallish boat?

Venchka
03-17-2004, 10:39 AM
Art, Jon, Anyone else:

What wood did Ya'll use for the covering boards and deck strips? Art, you said teak for deck, what wood is the covering board? Would yellow cedar or doug-fir work on a smallish boat?

Norm Bernstein
03-17-2004, 10:57 AM
Buddy, I was planning to put foam blocks on the undersides of the foredeck, side decks, and aft deck, to about 4" thickness (as thick as I can without it being seen). I'm also planning to fill the space from stem to first frame with foam... it will be well under the foredeck, and won't be seen. All told, I should be able to get perhaps 15 cubic feet of foam, which should provide roughly 900 lbs of bouyancy... wnough to keep her afloat... awash, but afloat... as well as 'bow up'.

Norm Bernstein
03-17-2004, 10:57 AM
Buddy, I was planning to put foam blocks on the undersides of the foredeck, side decks, and aft deck, to about 4" thickness (as thick as I can without it being seen). I'm also planning to fill the space from stem to first frame with foam... it will be well under the foredeck, and won't be seen. All told, I should be able to get perhaps 15 cubic feet of foam, which should provide roughly 900 lbs of bouyancy... wnough to keep her afloat... awash, but afloat... as well as 'bow up'.

Norm Bernstein
03-17-2004, 10:57 AM
Buddy, I was planning to put foam blocks on the undersides of the foredeck, side decks, and aft deck, to about 4" thickness (as thick as I can without it being seen). I'm also planning to fill the space from stem to first frame with foam... it will be well under the foredeck, and won't be seen. All told, I should be able to get perhaps 15 cubic feet of foam, which should provide roughly 900 lbs of bouyancy... wnough to keep her afloat... awash, but afloat... as well as 'bow up'.

Jon Etheredge
03-17-2004, 12:59 PM
What wood did Ya'll use for the covering boards and deck strips?
I used sassafras for the covering boards and vertical grain pine for the decking.

Some folks will say that pine is too soft to use for decking. You have to keep in mind the size of the boat. My boat is a 13' catboat that is similar to a Beetle Cat. The only time that I walk on the deck is when I am stepping/unstepping the mast and I do that in my bare feet or wearing soft sole shoes. In my experience, wear resistance isn't issue on the deck of my boat. Your mileage may vary smile.gif

There have been some comments about wood movement of a 1/4" overlay deck. The overlayed wood does come and go a bit on my deck. This is on a deck that is glued to the substrate with epoxy and that has an epoxy coating on the surface. The pine decking was also very carefully chosen to have vertical grain so most of the dimension change is in thickness rather than in the width of the decking. I haven't found any evidence that the epoxy bond between the decking and the substrate has failed in the 8 years or more since the deck was completed. But there is at least one seam that has a hairline fracture in the epoxy 'joint compound' between the deck planks.

I said in an earlier message that if I were to do this deck again, I would use Detco. I think that you are right, Norm, to be concerned about the application when the decking is only 1/4" thick. You should check with the manufacturer to verify my comment here but I believe that you are supposed to lay a strand of cotton wicking or caulking in the bottom of seams before gunning in the Detco. It is my understanding that this is done to prevent the Detco from bonding to the bottom of the seam. I think that for best resistance to seam bond failure, Detco should only be bonded to the sides of the seams. Like I said though, you should talk to Detco directly to get the straight poop on this. If my recollection is correct then you will reduce the seam depth even further than the already shallow 1/4" when you add the cotton.

One last comment and then I'll shut up. Dave Fleming and I discussed this deck construction via email when I was building it. He suggested that, in the long run, I would be happier with Detco in the seams instead of epoxy. I took his advice into consideration but still went down the epoxy path. At this point, I think he was right. The epoxy has worked out fine for bonding the decking to the substrate and I'd do that again but there are those one or 2 hairline fractures in the seams between the deck planks. Since my boat is always stored under a shed roof out of the weather, I don't feel there are any major problems that result but I do think the Detco would be better if it can be applied according to the manufacturers recommendations.

Jon Etheredge
03-17-2004, 12:59 PM
What wood did Ya'll use for the covering boards and deck strips?
I used sassafras for the covering boards and vertical grain pine for the decking.

Some folks will say that pine is too soft to use for decking. You have to keep in mind the size of the boat. My boat is a 13' catboat that is similar to a Beetle Cat. The only time that I walk on the deck is when I am stepping/unstepping the mast and I do that in my bare feet or wearing soft sole shoes. In my experience, wear resistance isn't issue on the deck of my boat. Your mileage may vary smile.gif

There have been some comments about wood movement of a 1/4" overlay deck. The overlayed wood does come and go a bit on my deck. This is on a deck that is glued to the substrate with epoxy and that has an epoxy coating on the surface. The pine decking was also very carefully chosen to have vertical grain so most of the dimension change is in thickness rather than in the width of the decking. I haven't found any evidence that the epoxy bond between the decking and the substrate has failed in the 8 years or more since the deck was completed. But there is at least one seam that has a hairline fracture in the epoxy 'joint compound' between the deck planks.

I said in an earlier message that if I were to do this deck again, I would use Detco. I think that you are right, Norm, to be concerned about the application when the decking is only 1/4" thick. You should check with the manufacturer to verify my comment here but I believe that you are supposed to lay a strand of cotton wicking or caulking in the bottom of seams before gunning in the Detco. It is my understanding that this is done to prevent the Detco from bonding to the bottom of the seam. I think that for best resistance to seam bond failure, Detco should only be bonded to the sides of the seams. Like I said though, you should talk to Detco directly to get the straight poop on this. If my recollection is correct then you will reduce the seam depth even further than the already shallow 1/4" when you add the cotton.

One last comment and then I'll shut up. Dave Fleming and I discussed this deck construction via email when I was building it. He suggested that, in the long run, I would be happier with Detco in the seams instead of epoxy. I took his advice into consideration but still went down the epoxy path. At this point, I think he was right. The epoxy has worked out fine for bonding the decking to the substrate and I'd do that again but there are those one or 2 hairline fractures in the seams between the deck planks. Since my boat is always stored under a shed roof out of the weather, I don't feel there are any major problems that result but I do think the Detco would be better if it can be applied according to the manufacturers recommendations.

Jon Etheredge
03-17-2004, 12:59 PM
What wood did Ya'll use for the covering boards and deck strips?
I used sassafras for the covering boards and vertical grain pine for the decking.

Some folks will say that pine is too soft to use for decking. You have to keep in mind the size of the boat. My boat is a 13' catboat that is similar to a Beetle Cat. The only time that I walk on the deck is when I am stepping/unstepping the mast and I do that in my bare feet or wearing soft sole shoes. In my experience, wear resistance isn't issue on the deck of my boat. Your mileage may vary smile.gif

There have been some comments about wood movement of a 1/4" overlay deck. The overlayed wood does come and go a bit on my deck. This is on a deck that is glued to the substrate with epoxy and that has an epoxy coating on the surface. The pine decking was also very carefully chosen to have vertical grain so most of the dimension change is in thickness rather than in the width of the decking. I haven't found any evidence that the epoxy bond between the decking and the substrate has failed in the 8 years or more since the deck was completed. But there is at least one seam that has a hairline fracture in the epoxy 'joint compound' between the deck planks.

I said in an earlier message that if I were to do this deck again, I would use Detco. I think that you are right, Norm, to be concerned about the application when the decking is only 1/4" thick. You should check with the manufacturer to verify my comment here but I believe that you are supposed to lay a strand of cotton wicking or caulking in the bottom of seams before gunning in the Detco. It is my understanding that this is done to prevent the Detco from bonding to the bottom of the seam. I think that for best resistance to seam bond failure, Detco should only be bonded to the sides of the seams. Like I said though, you should talk to Detco directly to get the straight poop on this. If my recollection is correct then you will reduce the seam depth even further than the already shallow 1/4" when you add the cotton.

One last comment and then I'll shut up. Dave Fleming and I discussed this deck construction via email when I was building it. He suggested that, in the long run, I would be happier with Detco in the seams instead of epoxy. I took his advice into consideration but still went down the epoxy path. At this point, I think he was right. The epoxy has worked out fine for bonding the decking to the substrate and I'd do that again but there are those one or 2 hairline fractures in the seams between the deck planks. Since my boat is always stored under a shed roof out of the weather, I don't feel there are any major problems that result but I do think the Detco would be better if it can be applied according to the manufacturers recommendations.

On Vacation
03-17-2004, 01:08 PM
Please, and I ask you nicely to not take the suggestion of cotton when laminating to plywood at heart. This is a misconception between old style teak decks and laminated face boards on plywood.

Many million dollar boats with huge teak cockpit survives much heavier use using the Detco or the old style Sikaflex system of layup. Again, this is only one comment in a long line of opinions, but over time has been very successful in extreme weather conditions and repeated scrubbings and varible grain patterns in deck construction over the last 20 years for me.

Varnishing over Detco has it real problems though. This is where the wood sealers work better for any pliable fills in the seams.

[ 03-17-2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

On Vacation
03-17-2004, 01:08 PM
Please, and I ask you nicely to not take the suggestion of cotton when laminating to plywood at heart. This is a misconception between old style teak decks and laminated face boards on plywood.

Many million dollar boats with huge teak cockpit survives much heavier use using the Detco or the old style Sikaflex system of layup. Again, this is only one comment in a long line of opinions, but over time has been very successful in extreme weather conditions and repeated scrubbings and varible grain patterns in deck construction over the last 20 years for me.

Varnishing over Detco has it real problems though. This is where the wood sealers work better for any pliable fills in the seams.

[ 03-17-2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

On Vacation
03-17-2004, 01:08 PM
Please, and I ask you nicely to not take the suggestion of cotton when laminating to plywood at heart. This is a misconception between old style teak decks and laminated face boards on plywood.

Many million dollar boats with huge teak cockpit survives much heavier use using the Detco or the old style Sikaflex system of layup. Again, this is only one comment in a long line of opinions, but over time has been very successful in extreme weather conditions and repeated scrubbings and varible grain patterns in deck construction over the last 20 years for me.

Varnishing over Detco has it real problems though. This is where the wood sealers work better for any pliable fills in the seams.

[ 03-17-2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

Norm Bernstein
03-17-2004, 01:45 PM
Yeah, I think the cotton wicking thing only applies to 'real' laid decks, the kind with thick strips screwed to the deckbeams without an underlayment. The purpose was to act as a 'beadbreaker', so that the seam compound would stretch laterally but not vertically. In the 'faux' laid deck approach, the seam compound is essentially decorative (although it will also serve to block the holes made by the clamping screws when the deck is laid; since this is an open cockpit boat, leaks, while they should be avoided, won't be a major problem).

I've looked at the Detco site, and I'm sure it's impressive stuff, but I get the feeling it's overkill for my application. Polysulphide is a lot cheaper, doesn't require mixing, and is really easy to reef out of the seams if it fails or needs to be redone.

One item I'll have to search for is one of those caulking adaptors for electric drills. When I did the dockboxes, I used a manual hand-operated caulking gun, and my hand was killing me by the time I was done. I recall seeing caulking adaptors that get chucked into an electric drill... inexpensive and low effort. Anyone recall seeing them?

Norm Bernstein
03-17-2004, 01:45 PM
Yeah, I think the cotton wicking thing only applies to 'real' laid decks, the kind with thick strips screwed to the deckbeams without an underlayment. The purpose was to act as a 'beadbreaker', so that the seam compound would stretch laterally but not vertically. In the 'faux' laid deck approach, the seam compound is essentially decorative (although it will also serve to block the holes made by the clamping screws when the deck is laid; since this is an open cockpit boat, leaks, while they should be avoided, won't be a major problem).

I've looked at the Detco site, and I'm sure it's impressive stuff, but I get the feeling it's overkill for my application. Polysulphide is a lot cheaper, doesn't require mixing, and is really easy to reef out of the seams if it fails or needs to be redone.

One item I'll have to search for is one of those caulking adaptors for electric drills. When I did the dockboxes, I used a manual hand-operated caulking gun, and my hand was killing me by the time I was done. I recall seeing caulking adaptors that get chucked into an electric drill... inexpensive and low effort. Anyone recall seeing them?

Norm Bernstein
03-17-2004, 01:45 PM
Yeah, I think the cotton wicking thing only applies to 'real' laid decks, the kind with thick strips screwed to the deckbeams without an underlayment. The purpose was to act as a 'beadbreaker', so that the seam compound would stretch laterally but not vertically. In the 'faux' laid deck approach, the seam compound is essentially decorative (although it will also serve to block the holes made by the clamping screws when the deck is laid; since this is an open cockpit boat, leaks, while they should be avoided, won't be a major problem).

I've looked at the Detco site, and I'm sure it's impressive stuff, but I get the feeling it's overkill for my application. Polysulphide is a lot cheaper, doesn't require mixing, and is really easy to reef out of the seams if it fails or needs to be redone.

One item I'll have to search for is one of those caulking adaptors for electric drills. When I did the dockboxes, I used a manual hand-operated caulking gun, and my hand was killing me by the time I was done. I recall seeing caulking adaptors that get chucked into an electric drill... inexpensive and low effort. Anyone recall seeing them?

On Vacation
03-17-2004, 02:49 PM
Make sure any flexible caulk is impervious to cleaning chemicals. Remember the steps of labor are almost the same for all except for the mixing of the two part. Good luck.

On Vacation
03-17-2004, 02:49 PM
Make sure any flexible caulk is impervious to cleaning chemicals. Remember the steps of labor are almost the same for all except for the mixing of the two part. Good luck.

On Vacation
03-17-2004, 02:49 PM
Make sure any flexible caulk is impervious to cleaning chemicals. Remember the steps of labor are almost the same for all except for the mixing of the two part. Good luck.

Norm Bernstein
03-19-2004, 03:33 PM
I just got back from the Maine Boat Builder's Show, and saw a fine example of a 'faux' laid teak deck. It was on a lovely 20' daysailer, the name of which I forgot, but I didn't even know it was 'faux' until the builder told me.

The deck was made from 1/4" strips, set in West epoxy thickened with a mixture of #403 milled fibers and #406 colloidal silica. The seams were filled with the stuff from Teak Decking Systems.

Most suprising was the fact that it was a 'sprung' deck, NOT a 'straght laid' deck... he said that it was a challenge to get the strips to bend... required screws as well as levers and wedges. I didn't ask him how many strips he broke. Admittedly, the boat was a classic narrow-beam, deep keel design... so there wasn't all that much curve to the sheer.

Norm Bernstein
03-19-2004, 03:33 PM
I just got back from the Maine Boat Builder's Show, and saw a fine example of a 'faux' laid teak deck. It was on a lovely 20' daysailer, the name of which I forgot, but I didn't even know it was 'faux' until the builder told me.

The deck was made from 1/4" strips, set in West epoxy thickened with a mixture of #403 milled fibers and #406 colloidal silica. The seams were filled with the stuff from Teak Decking Systems.

Most suprising was the fact that it was a 'sprung' deck, NOT a 'straght laid' deck... he said that it was a challenge to get the strips to bend... required screws as well as levers and wedges. I didn't ask him how many strips he broke. Admittedly, the boat was a classic narrow-beam, deep keel design... so there wasn't all that much curve to the sheer.

Norm Bernstein
03-19-2004, 03:33 PM
I just got back from the Maine Boat Builder's Show, and saw a fine example of a 'faux' laid teak deck. It was on a lovely 20' daysailer, the name of which I forgot, but I didn't even know it was 'faux' until the builder told me.

The deck was made from 1/4" strips, set in West epoxy thickened with a mixture of #403 milled fibers and #406 colloidal silica. The seams were filled with the stuff from Teak Decking Systems.

Most suprising was the fact that it was a 'sprung' deck, NOT a 'straght laid' deck... he said that it was a challenge to get the strips to bend... required screws as well as levers and wedges. I didn't ask him how many strips he broke. Admittedly, the boat was a classic narrow-beam, deep keel design... so there wasn't all that much curve to the sheer.