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Ian McColgin
04-05-2014, 09:27 PM
[IMc - This may raise the usual questions about rescuing people who venture out. About prudence and preparedness. The story is not over as it remains to be seen what happens to the yacht and why they lost steering. Still more questions than answers.]

U.S. military rescuing sick baby on family's boat in Pacific Ocean

Jonathan Allen, Reuters, April 5, 2014

(Reuters) - An American family that had been sailing across the Pacific Ocean for several weeks was the focus of a U.S. military rescue mission on Saturday after their 1-year-old daughter became severely ill, officials said.

Eric and Charlotte Kaufman, along with their daughters Cora, 3, and 1-year-old Lyra sailed from Mexico on March 19 toward islands in the South Pacific and eventually New Zealand, according to therebelheart.com, where they have been writing about their sometimes stormy voyage.

The family sent out a distress call by satellite from their boat, named Rebel Heart, on Thursday about 1,000 miles off Mexico's Pacific coast.

That prompted a team from the California Air National Guard's 129th Rescue Wing to fly out to sea in a military transport plane from their base at Moffett Federal Airfield near San Francisco, said spokesman Second Lieutenant Roderick Bersamina.

Four men, laden with medical gear and other supplies, were able to parachute from the plane into the ocean. They inflated a dinghy, motored toward the boat and boarded to treat the girl.

"They took it upon themselves to do whatever necessary to save her life," Bersamina said. He could not confirm the nature of her ailment, but said she had been treated and was stable.

"The family is in good spirits and very thankful for the pararescuemen who are onboard," he said. "Granted, it is cramped quarters."

The rescue team also found problems with the 36-foot (11-meter) boat's steering and communication systems, he said.

The Vandegrift, a U.S. Navy frigate carrying a helicopter and a crew of 200, left San Diego on Friday and was expected to reach the Rebel Heart late on Saturday night, according to Bersamina and a Navy spokeswoman.

A decision about how to get the family back to dry land will be made once the frigate arrives, assuming the baby's health remains stable, Bersamina said.

The Air National Guard had also deployed two rescue helicopters and two rescue planes that were on standby on Saturday in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, in case a rapid air evacuation is necessary, Bersamina said.

The four pararescuemen will remain onboard with the family in the meantime. "They will not leave the family until the infant is in the care of a doctor," Bersamina said.

The California Air National Guard is part of the state's militia. Its primary mission is rescuing military personnel during wartime, but has been involved in scores of rescue missions involving civilians in distress, whether out at sea or lost in the mountains, Bersamina said.

(Reporting by Jonathan Allen in New York; Editing by Lisa Shumaker)

Ian McColgin
04-06-2014, 08:11 AM
US navy warship rescues sick baby from stricken boat 900 miles out to sea
Parents call for help after one-year-old girl falls ill hundreds of miles from Mexican coast during round-the-world sailing trip

Associated Press in San Diego
theguardian.com, Sunday 6 April 2014 05.44 EDT

Eric and Charlotte Kaufman with their daughters, Lyra, who fell ill, and three-year-old Cora. Photograph: AP
A US navy warship on a mission to rescue a sick one-year-old girl has reached her family's stricken sailing boat hundreds of miles off the Mexican coast.

The transfer of the child from the 11-metre (36ft) boat to the warship is expected to start around dawn, said the Coast Guard Petty Officer 2nd Class Barry Bena on Sunday.

"Sometime this morning as soon as they get some light they are going to take the child off the boat and bring her aboard the naval vessel," Bena said.

A small boat will be used to carry out the operation and it will be safer during daylight, especially since the child's condition has stabilised, the spokesman said.

The girl's family – her parents and a three-year-old sister – were about 900 miles off Mexico on a trip around the world when they sent a satellite ping for help to the US Coast Guard on Thursday about her illness.

A family member said the Rebel Heart was owned by a San Diego couple, Charlotte and Eric Kaufman, whose daughter Lyra had developed a fever and a rash covering most of her body and was not responding to medication.

The California Air National Guard dispatched four rescuers, who parachuted into the water and reached the disabled vessel. The team was able to stabilise the girl and pointed the sailboat, which does not have steering or communication abilities, towards Mexico, the 129th Rescue Wing said in a statement.

The rescuers stayed aboard the Rebel Heart and are keeping watch on the ill child until the navy frigate transfers them to shore. The girl still requires medical treatment, and the rescuers planned to stay with her until she reaches a hospital, the statement said.

USS Vandegrift churned through the Pacific at nearly 30mph to reach the stricken boat, officials said. Bena said he was not sure if it had arrived late on Saturday or early on Sunday.

The Kaufmans were two weeks into a journey bound for the South Pacific islands and eventually New Zealand.

Before the family left, Lyra had salmonella poisoning, but doctors cleared her to travel after she recovered, said Charlotte Kaufman's sister, Sariah Kay English.

English was initially in daily email contact with the family but realised something was wrong when the communication stopped several days ago.

English said she was told the vessel took on water every time the motor was turned on. It was now slowly moving using only the sails.

When her sister first mentioned plans to sail with two young children, English recalled, "I thought it was nuts".

But English said the couple were always careful. Eric Kaufman is a Coast Guard-licensed captain who introduced sailing to Charlotte Kaufman during one of their early dates.

"They were not going into this blind. I knew they were doing this wisely," English said.

She said the couple made a network of friends who travelled around the globe with children, and always stocked the sailboat with more food than they needed.

"They were very overcautious. They are not new at sailing," English said. Unfortunately, "sickness sometimes happens".

# # #

Tracey
04-06-2014, 08:22 AM
what happens to the boat in these instances?

Phillip Allen
04-06-2014, 08:28 AM
what happens to the boat in these instances?

I would think that communications would be restored and one would stay with boat and sail to nearest port... lost steering can be delt with... taking on water when motor is running has only a few possibilities which can be addressed, I think... it won't be fun

Ian McColgin
04-06-2014, 08:29 AM
My off-hand bet is Mom and kids head for shore and assuming boat repaired Dad sails on to next port. But we have a very incomplete notion of what's wrong with the boat. There's something about her leaking when the engine is on, though she really can't motor far anyway, and something else about a steering problem. Anyway, with four extra hands aboard, they might have her fixed by the time the child is transferred in a few hours - daylight.

Hwyl
04-06-2014, 08:37 AM
Good for them, it seems from the reports that the Kaufman family were not very well prepared. More will be known I am sure, but they must have had some kind of communication equipment.

I answered a VHF call from a guy on a Newport to Bermuda run,he was communicating daily with his brother by (If I remember) PacMail/SSB modem, which is enormously unreliable. His system had broken down and he was afraid his brother would call out the CG. We sent the brother a text message via Delorme inReach, the brother was kinda rude and the sailor said he'd buy my crew beers in Bermuda, he never did.

The moral being : that if you plan to be in dailly contact, set up a "what if" scenario and have multiple forms of comunicatioon.

genglandoh
04-06-2014, 08:47 AM
IMHO young children and sailing around the world do not mix.
Even if you are a good experienced sailor I would not sail around the world with a child under 10.
People forget that young children s immune system is not fully developed and that can get sick easily.

Ian McColgin
04-06-2014, 08:59 AM
As I understand the record, such as it is, the general health of children sailing is quite good. At sea, of course, there's little in the way of new pathogens to develop an immunity to. There is the issue of then coming ashore in different lands where, like children who travel there by air, they may meet something to which their immune system is not ready.

So far as I've read in these two stories and in others that were actual news stories and not mindless speculation, it appears the yacht was well found and the Kaufmans are experienced, prepared and prudent.

Garret
04-06-2014, 09:24 AM
IMHO young children and sailing around the world do not mix.
Even if you are a good experienced sailor I would not sail around the world with a child under 10.
People forget that young children s immune system is not fully developed and that can get sick easily.

Thousands of kids have cruised around the world - largely to their great benefit.

IMHO, the real issue is whether or not one should expect service like this 1,000 miles from shore. Not only that, but if the family had been in the US (on land) they would've been treated at a hospital, but if no insurance, they would've been billed - including being billed for an ambulance. In this case the "ambulance" run will cost 100's of thousands of dollars. Should they (or their health insurance - yeah, right) pay for it - or should we the taxpayers do so? I'll say I have an issue with taxpayers paying for it.

Nicholas Carey
04-06-2014, 10:31 PM
Good on 'em, sez me. Good drill for the crews involved. Good outcome. Great PR for the DoD.

Here's video of the rescue swimmers getting dropped from the C-130

http://youtu.be/E-bPUjBw3sc

C-130 stall speed is c. 100 knots: wearing your swim fins in an a parachute air drop at speed...gotta wonder about the likelyhood of the fins staying attached to the ol' feet.


The Vandegrift, a U.S. Navy frigate carrying a helicopter and a crew of 200, left San Diego on Friday and was expected to reach the Rebel Heart late on Saturday night, according to Bersamina and a Navy spokeswoman.
.
.
.
USS Vandegrift churned through the Pacific at nearly 30mph to reach the stricken boat, officials said. Bena said he was not sure if it had arrived late on Saturday or early on Sunday.


From San Diego to the vessel in trouble...maybe 1000–1500 miles? At flank speed? Must have been an E-ticket ride aboard USS Vandegrift. Did her crew even have time to get their sea legs?

Here's USS John Paul Jones (destroyer, DDG-53) running at flank speed:

http://youtu.be/auFg4Tic5RM

http://youtu.be/auFg4Tic5RM

Don't even want to think how much JP-5 that ride burned :)



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Ian McColgin
04-07-2014, 09:14 AM
I see from this morning's paper that the family is aboard the cutter and their yacht, which apparantly was taking water anyway, is being sunk, perhaps with a little practice gun fire.

The Coast Guard often takes an owner off first because they have learned that once crew is safe, many owners will want to stick with and try to save their boat. In this case, Kaufman may or may not have wanted to stay with the boat and bring her to a port but the Navy would not want to leave him alone, so his choises were limited.

It's a shock to lose everything.

Hwyl
04-07-2014, 07:32 PM
http://www.wavetrain.net/news-a-views/578-rebel-heart-evacuationanother-internet-sailboat-rescue-tornado

There are links to their blogs, seem an eminently capable couple. I retract my earlier remarks

Gerarddm
04-07-2014, 07:42 PM
#10: how fast do you think that DDG is running at flank speed?. Pushing 35-40 knots? I'd say yes, because they have to keep up with the CVNs at flank.

Phillip Allen
04-07-2014, 08:31 PM
it brings up some points I find interesting... DC plugs for one thing

if no one wants to discuss such things, I'll let it go

Hwyl
04-08-2014, 11:51 AM
I don't understand what your saying Phillip.

bogdog
04-08-2014, 12:15 PM
My only questions about the family's choice is why go when the children are so young, to me it's more fun when they're old enough to remember and then there seemed to be some friction between husband and wife about the wisdom of the trip before departure.

Jim Mahan
04-08-2014, 12:56 PM
there seemed to be some friction between husband and wife about the wisdom of the trip before departure.

How is that anything but expected?

slug
04-08-2014, 01:03 PM
Doesnt sound like fun to be at sea with a family.

Ive always crossed oceans with pro crew. Much more stimulating to face challenges in the company of seaman

peb
04-08-2014, 01:30 PM
Do we know yet the problem they had with the boat?

Ian McColgin
04-08-2014, 01:35 PM
The news reports state the boat was taking water and that there was something about the steering. No specifics or how bad.

slug
04-08-2014, 01:59 PM
They were unskilled seaman and unprepared for mishaps......conditions made it so they were no longer in control so they jumped ship.

it would be wise if authorities requiresd pleasure boater who venture offshore to carry insurance to help cover the cost of rescue.

when an insurance company knows that It may be responsible for a big payout they will insist on safe crew levels , a surveyed vessel and skilled operators.

Ian McColgin
04-08-2014, 02:09 PM
From all I have read, I cannot support slug's conclusion that "They were unskilled seaman and unprepared for mishaps . . . " [#21] But it is true that their otherwise well prepared medical kit did not contain the medicine that apparantly was aboard the cruiser and has stabilized the infant. It will be interesting if we ever learn what the child's specific diagnosis was.

The stories have some remarks about the boat taking water, perhaps only when the engine was running. Also something about steering. Neither of these were dealt with much given the exigencies of dealing with the child. Since the yacht was deliberatly scuttled after the family's removal, we'll not really know what was up there, but the boat type is generally sound and reliable.

If you want to make ocean travel the exclusive purview of rich entitled people, requiring insurance will do the trick. I am in favor of all at sea, navies and lifesaving services and passing vessels doing what they can for any in distress. If someone is out of reach, they are just as out of reach as if they live in the North Country, the phone lines are down, and they have a stroke.

genglandoh
04-08-2014, 02:12 PM
It seems there were a lot of problems with this trip

1. The kids and Mom were sick with Salmonella just before the trip.
Most of the time this is spread from bad food or water.
They were living on the boat before the trip so I hope they purged and cleaned the water tanks before starting the trip.
2. The baby was also put on steroids to fight bronchitis and an upper respiratory infection.
3. The boat developed steering problems
4. The boat developed some kind of communications problems.
But they were able to call the coast guard so I am assuming they are talking about their VHF radio.
5. The boat finally started to take on water after the Coast Guard arrived and allowed to sink.

slug
04-08-2014, 02:16 PM
A skilled seaman doesn't put to sea unless his boat and crew are up to the task.

Since skilled is hard to define I would leave this to the insurance company.

since in seagoing condition is hard to define I would leave this up to the insurance company.

since proper crew level is hard to define I would leave this up to the insurance company

Garret
04-08-2014, 03:01 PM
A skilled seaman doesn't put to sea unless his boat and crew are up to the task.

Since skilled is hard to define I would leave this to the insurance company.

since in seagoing condition is hard to define I would leave this up to the insurance company.

since proper crew level is hard to define I would leave this up to the insurance company


There's this little thing called personal responsibility. You may be happy to hand over the decision of whether or not you can go to sea to some insurance underwriter, but I am not willing to do that.

slug
04-08-2014, 03:21 PM
Well...since the advent of GPS, EPIRB and all the goodies , personal responsibility has become optional.

I work with yachts for a living. You would be surprised how many owners disregard my advice . I wonder how the insurance company resolves these issues.
A simple tow to port may cost 50 thousand dollars. A mast that falls is half a million.


This boat that was lost appears to had some steering difficulty ? And it was taking on water ?

these are not acts of god.

Ian McColgin
04-08-2014, 03:29 PM
Right slug. As you have read from the accounts here, the news articles not the fatuous speculation, we don't have actual details of why or how much water she was making or just what the steering issues may have been. Perhaps it was something that could be dealt with were the parents not involved also with an increasingly sick child. Perhaps it was worse. We cannot know, though the Kaufmans may give more information later. But the boat was sunk by the Navy and is now not available for inspection. Something similar with the baby's illness. She had recovered from salmonila and been cleared by the physician. The symptoms exhibited don't sound like anything related but who knows. In the absence of a firm diagnosis, all we know is that the medicines in their kit did not do the job. It will be interesting if more facts emerge.

slug
04-08-2014, 03:42 PM
The fact remains that rescue authorities were called to assist a pleasure boater who ,for what ever reason , got in over his head.

if these rescue authorities did not exist , I suspect that the captain of that boat would have thought more carefully about the adventure he was taking his family on.

peb
04-08-2014, 03:53 PM
The fact remains that rescue authorities were called to assist a pleasure boater who ,for what ever reason , got in over his head.

if these rescue authorities did not exist , I suspect that the captain of that boat would have thought more carefully about the adventure he was taking his family on.

I doubt that. Very few boaters think about navy rescuers being available in case things don't work out.


I have seen lots of people do things in boats that are dumb, but it seems to be extremely rare for those who actually venture out to sea to do so. There always seem to be two classes of sailirs where the bast majority are competent seamen: Bluewater sailors and serious racers.
I would give them the benefit of the doubt until more facts emerge.

slug
04-08-2014, 04:07 PM
They had satellite communication . Take that link away and I can guarantee that you will have a half dozen survival strategies for every possible incident.

Phil Y
04-08-2014, 04:36 PM
A mast that falls is half a million.

.
Not in my world, nor the Kauffmans I think. Slug you come here with a high level of arrogance, but to me at least, seem way off base. Your suggestion that insurance companies decide who should go to sea is odious.

Garret
04-08-2014, 04:52 PM
Not in my world, nor the Kauffmans I think.

In another thread, he mentioned that he finds customers wanting updates on work to be annoying. If a mast replacement normally runs 1/2 million for him, it explains why.... ;)

Ian McColgin
04-08-2014, 04:59 PM
So much depends upon the level of yacht work. From the costs, reluctance to cruise coastal, and other hints, I'd not be surprised if slug works on or skippers maxis. Boats in this class are professionally crewed and are of course comprehensivly insured, including crew and all that. Most of us work on boats under twenty tons doing our own work. Very different worlds.

slug
04-08-2014, 05:01 PM
The last Standing rigging package I did on a sloop cost 72 thousand dollars. It lasts seven to ten years. You may choose not to do it......but i told ya so...... go learn the hard way.

I work with yachts for a living...Idon't fantasize about them, i follow the rules.

slug
04-08-2014, 05:03 PM
So much depends upon the level of yacht work. From the costs, reluctance to cruise coastal, and other hints, I'd not be surprised if slug works on or skippers maxis. Boats in this class are professionally crewed and are of course comprehensivly insured, including crew and all that. Most of us work on boats under twenty tons doing our own work. Very different worlds.


At sea all boats are equal...no shortcuts.

if you cant do it the right way, dont go to sea.

If you need to learn what the right way is , contact a surveyor...

Ian McColgin
04-08-2014, 05:08 PM
Yeah, last standing rigging job I did on my Alden 43' schooner cost about $600 in wire and a month doing splices since I was too poor to buy StayLocs. And I'd been lugging about a beautiful piece of aircraft grade sitka spruce that I used in repairing rot at the partners of each mast so the only new cost of that part was epoxy.

If you have the time and lack of budget to do your own work and if the scale is small enough and the charter season far enough away it's lots cheaper. It also helps to have a rep as a rigger so that if someone comes in with a job like slug describes and the local yard's crew is not really up to it, I'll get some of that nice cash.

slug
04-08-2014, 05:19 PM
It may be possible to do your own standing rigging or any other task that must be performed to guarantee reliability.

most folks cant.

peb
04-08-2014, 05:39 PM
They had satellite communication . Take that link away and I can guarantee that you will have a half dozen survival strategies for every possible incident.

BS. Perhaps they were negligent, but it wasn't due to having a sat link or the availability of rescue craft

Phillip Allen
04-08-2014, 07:54 PM
I don't understand what your saying Phillip.

do you carry DC plugs? what other emergency preperations?

(I just now saw this)

Nicholas Carey
04-08-2014, 08:01 PM
A skilled seaman doesn't put to sea unless his boat and crew are up to the task.

Since skilled is hard to define I would leave this to the insurance company.

since in seagoing condition is hard to define I would leave this up to the insurance company.

since proper crew level is hard to define I would leave this up to the insurance company


Marine underwriters already do this. Based on the vessel and the owner's sailing resume, they may (and do) restrict your cruising area, what times of year you might sail, and may even require a licensed master be aboard.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Jim Bow
04-08-2014, 08:19 PM
Historical side note: When George Patton was assigned duty in Hawaii in the mid 1930s, he sailed there in this: Arcturus (http://www.classicboatcharter.com/history.htm) If I recall correctly, he didn't have too much experience, but no one was going to tell him not to do it. Wife and kids were aboard for the trip.

Hwyl
04-08-2014, 08:21 PM
do you carry DC plugs? what other emergency preperations?

(I just now saw this)

What's a DC plug?

Mad Scientist
04-08-2014, 08:28 PM
#10: how fast do you think that DDG is running at flank speed?. Pushing 35-40 knots? I'd say yes, because they have to keep up with the CVNs at flank.

The most that the USN will admit to is '29 plus knots' for the OHP's and 'over 30 knots' for destroyers and cruisers.

Hard to believe (for me, at least) that an OHP can do a 2000 nm round trip at '29 plus knots' without running out of fuel.

Tom

Mad Scientist
04-08-2014, 08:39 PM
What's a DC plug?

Damage Control plug - a tapered softwood plug. Warships carry them in several sizes for emergency leak stopping. I don't know what civilian boaters call them.

Tom

CK 17
04-08-2014, 08:43 PM
What's a DC plug?

http://www.parts-express.com/25mm-x-55mm-x-115mm-dc-plug-with-6-ft-cord--090-492?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

isnt it obvious. You shove a dc plug in the hole to stop the leak. :)

Garret
04-08-2014, 08:49 PM
http://www.parts-express.com/25mm-x-55mm-x-115mm-dc-plug-with-6-ft-cord--090-492?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

isnt it obvious. You shove a dc plug in the hole to stop the leak. :)

Yup - I was trying to figure out what a DC plug had to do with a leak too. Tom's post above 'splains it though.

Hwyl
04-08-2014, 08:52 PM
Amazingly, I call them "softwood plugs".

However the article said ""they couldn't run the engine without taking on water" which leads me to think of a split muffler (exhaust mixer) or a damaged heat exchanger, neither of which is a particularly big hurdle. As I said in an earlier post. I read their blogs, they seem capable and independent young people (too many yucky pictures of chilldbirth) so let's wait and see.

Ian McColgin
04-08-2014, 09:00 PM
Most of us keep an appropriate size plug on a string next to every through hull fitting. Other holes are rarely neatly round and must be dealt with by fothering from the outside or shoring from inside. I know of no ocean voyager that does not have those basics.

CK 17
04-08-2014, 09:01 PM
I like the foam kind. Although I carry both.

http://s20.postimg.org/hqp517vzx/IMG_20130717_080056_141.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/73vbvsnuh/full/)
upload (http://postimage.org/)

Garret
04-08-2014, 09:09 PM
And your dog leaps at running water headfirst? :)

Great pic. I can read "You really think making me do this & taking a picture is a good idea?" in the eyes.....

Breakaway
04-08-2014, 09:11 PM
Damage Control plug - a tapered softwood plug. Warships carry them in several sizes for emergency leak stopping. I don't know what civilian boaters call them.

I call em bungs

Kevin

Garret
04-08-2014, 09:42 PM
I call em bungs

Kevin

'cause without 'em you might be screwed?

Breakaway
04-08-2014, 09:52 PM
'
cause without 'em you might be screwed?

Not half-bad. I don't have a snazzy retort, so I'll just say that the guys who taught me the word bung for the purpose under discussion were a barrel of fun.

Kevin

Garret
04-08-2014, 10:01 PM
'

Not half-bad. I don't have a snazzy retort, so I'll just say that the guys who taught me the word bung for the purpose under discussion were a barrel of fun.

Kevin

I can hear someone going ba dum bump on a drum.....

slug
04-09-2014, 03:51 AM
Its easier to use plugs if you drive an eye bolt into them .

a spray can of expanding foam is also recomended for patching holes.


a selection of plywood offcuts stored under bunks is very handy for patching hatches.

a pump to inflate rubber fenders that you have deflated and jammed into a broken off rudder stock hole or mast puncture is handy

http://s1.postimg.org/uzok9osmn/image.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/78p6rksff/full/)
imag (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

Garret
04-09-2014, 06:38 AM
I'm curious. How hard is it to get the plugs off that ring? If you were to need 2 plugs in 2 locations, that'd make it harder to deploy them I'd think. I keep a correctly sized plug next to each through-hull.

Hwyl
04-09-2014, 06:56 AM
The conventional thinking on that Garret, is that the plugs are better if they are dry, and may swell up by just being in the bilge. In this case I'd say you're right and screw conventional thinking.

If I hhad a Beneteau, I''d want two plugs at each through hull, one the I/D of the through hull and one the I/D of the hole left by the snapped off through hull.

slug
04-09-2014, 07:07 AM
Gee...I can remove a plug from the ring is 2 seconds...well, maybe three seconds

the ring of plugs keeps them organized, dry, and visible to crew. The plug rings are hung on hooks on engine room doors , bilge hatchs and other handy locations.

no use putting them in the bilge..it might be full of water or a black hole.

The pad eye allows you to pull the plug out after use and is a handy tie down to keep them from popping out

Garret
04-09-2014, 07:09 AM
Gee...I can remove a plug from the ring is 2 seconds...well, maybe three seconds


OK - that was my question! Thanks for answering it. Always interesting to see (& learn from) how other people do it.

Ian McColgin
04-09-2014, 07:16 AM
My only experience of a bung actually working was a very early spring delivery down Long Island Sound. When water was seen sloshing over the floor boards the hunt was on. Turned out to be coming in the bilge drain hole. Not having a bung to fit and finding that stuffing rags and expanding foam were useless against that water pressure, we found a round handled ice pick that fit with a little whittling to make the slope more gentle and a few hard swats.

(I don't like the eye hook on the ends of the bungs pictured since that interferes with hammer assisted insertion.)

We figure that during the winter some bilge water had simply frozen while trying to drain out. The small ice plug was then sanded and painted over and took about sixteen hourse (overnight after launch and then to almost noon while we sailed) to melt.

A Kings Cruiser I was sailing surfed down off a wave onto a semisubmerged container, starting all the seams, which resettled in about six hours, and broke several floors where the screws from the outside of the planking into the floors pulled right through leaving a couple dozen half inch holes. I sawed up a bunch of pieces of locker door - nice wood and suitably thin - which we slathered with underwater setting epoxy putty, jammed in place and screwed down. That held nicely for the rest of the trip.

I should have mentioned above that part of shoring is underwater setting epoxy putty. I have experimented with expanding foam after the no joy experience mentioned above and not found a way to make it work at all. It just makes a mess allowing more water in while you clean out the failure.

It's my dream to someday have a boat with no below water openings except the prop and rudder shafts.

Garret
04-09-2014, 07:17 AM
The conventional thinking on that Garret, is that the plugs are better if they are dry, and may swell up by just being in the bilge. In this case I'd say you're right and screw conventional thinking.

If I hhad a Beneteau, I''d want two plugs at each through hull, one the I/D of the through hull and one the I/D of the hole left by the snapped off through hull.

Now, now :) Is that experience speaking?

I'll add that my experience on a # of boats I've chartered, borrowed, sailed on is that some folks never check their seacocks! I was going over a fractionally "owned" - really rented - boat with the owner & he asked me why I opened & closed (or vice-versa) each seacock as he showed me their location. I was rather taken aback & said "You don't do this every time you come n board & daily when on board?". He looked at me like I was nuts & said "Of course not - but obviously I don't have to worry about how you will take care of the boat."

To me that's one of the most basic things one does.

Breakaway
04-09-2014, 07:21 AM
http://www.boatingmag.com/sites/all/files/imagecache/blog_detail_image/_images/201305/howtousebungs.jpg

I just tie mine to the through hull, so they are right there if needed. They are sized in advance, drilled through the top and a lanyard attached.

Toilet bowl wax can also be jammed into a through hull or other intake where the valve has broken or the hose has failed. Saw a demo that a salvage company gave for some local commercial fisherman years back. Just a mock blown hose at the dock, mind you. But a 1.5-inch hose 5 feet below the waterline was removed and the valve opened. Water rushed in. Then a glob of toilet bowl ring wax was jammed in the hole. Held for the hour and a half I was there.

Its also said that plumber's putty is good for this purpuse.I cannot confirm that though.

Kevin

slug
04-09-2014, 07:36 AM
My only experience of a bung actually working was a very early spring delivery down Long Island Sound. When water was seen sloshing over the floor boards the hunt was on. Turned out to be coming in the bilge drain hole. Not having a bung to fit and finding that stuffing rags and expanding foam were useless against that water pressure, we found a round handled ice pick that fit with a little whittling to make the slope more gentle and a few hard swats.

(I don't like the eye hook on the ends of the bungs pictured since that interferes with hammer assisted insertion.)

We figure that during the winter some bilge water had simply frozen while trying to drain out. The small ice plug was then sanded and painted over and took about sixteen hourse (overnight after launch and then to almost noon while we sailed) to melt.

A Kings Cruiser I was sailing surfed down off a wave onto a semisubmerged container, starting all the seams, which resettled in about six hours, and broke several floors where the screws from the outside of the planking into the floors pulled right through leaving a couple dozen half inch holes. I sawed up a bunch of pieces of locker door - nice wood and suitably thin - which we slathered with underwater setting epoxy putty, jammed in place and screwed down. That held nicely for the rest of the trip.

I should have mentioned above that part of shoring is underwater setting epoxy putty. I have experimented with expanding foam after the no joy experience mentioned above and not found a way to make it work at all. It just makes a mess allowing more water in while you clean out the failure.

It's my dream to someday have a boat with no below water openings except the prop and rudder shafts.


If you have thru hulls breaking off the skin of your boat, then your boat is a piece of junk...park it.

Most water intrusion issues are broken or chafed hose...deck drains are particularly vulnerable because you never service or inspect them or they are PVC pipe. Hammering a bung into pvc wouldnt be good...push fit does the trick. Dripping valves are troublesome..plugs wont work unless you go swimming. Best to live with them until you can haul.

When I alert an owner who has transoceanic ambitions I insist that he service, removes or proves every thru hull and valve. They never listen, too expensive so they spend the cash on oceanic sat com so that they can surf the internet and face book at sea.

expanding foam is used in conjunction with a crash mat or something that you have shoved into the hole to make itreasonably watertight. Once reasonably watertight you foam the entire locker or bilge section to stabilize your repair.

Even boat salvage company floats boats then foams them for the tow home.

a common sinking event is caused by rope in the prop. The rope dislocates the P bracket and you sink. Good boats have a waterproof box built around the P bracket fasteners on the inside of the bilge.

Not many good boats in the world.

varadero
04-09-2014, 07:58 AM
Most of us keep an appropriate size plug on a string next to every through hull fitting. Other holes are rarely neatly round and must be dealt with by fothering from the outside or shoring from inside. I know of no ocean voyager that does not have those basics.

You would be amazed at the repair qualities of a large spud.
Solanum tuberosum

Breakaway
04-09-2014, 08:09 AM
Dripping valves are troublesome..plugs wont work unless you go swimming. Best to live with them until you can haul.

This depends. With a hose barb screwed into the valve you've got three or more inches of depth into which you can insert your plug.

Agree on pushing and not hammering, especially in cast metal fittings.

PVC? Doesn't belong aboard a boat, in a raw water application..Certainly not where winters are cold. And, if I recall, ABYC requires that seacock/intake plumbing is required to withstand 500-lbs of static force applied sideways for 30 seconds. I am not sure, but I will guess that most PVC will fail that test.

Kevin

ETA: ...in a raw water application."

Ian McColgin
04-09-2014, 08:28 AM
I understand that you don't want to whang a bung in so hard you cause further damage. It's just that in my actual experience plugging a 1" hole about 3' below the waterline (that was the bilge drain above) I could not push the plug in firmly enough for it to stay in place. A few taps with the hammer did the job.

slug
04-09-2014, 09:20 AM
This depends. With a hose barb screwed into the valve you've got three or more inches of depth into which you can insert your plug.

Agree on pushing and not hammering, especially in cast metal fittings.

PVC? Doesn't belong aboard a boat, in a raw water application..Certainly not where winters are cold. And, if I recall, ABYC requires that seacock/intake plumbing is required to withstand 500-lbs of static force applied sideways for 30 seconds. I am not sure, but I will guess that most PVC will fail that test.

Kevin

ETA: ...in a raw water application."

plenty of pvc on a boat. Ive been refitting a water maker this week. Pvc.

below waterline PPfp is used. Its a different grade and the FP means fire resistant.

Very little rubber hose and hose clamps on a modern boat.

and valves with persistent valve stem leaks are tough to deal with.

Breakaway
04-09-2014, 12:02 PM
plenty of pvc on a boat. Ive been refitting a water maker this week. Pvc.

below waterline PPfp is used. Its a different grade and the FP means fire resistant.

Cheap. Good luck with that.


Very little rubber hose and hose clamps on a modern boat.

I run brand new boats every month and I see plenty of bronze, hose, hose clamps--PVC for internal FW plumbing. Hose runs withstand vibration, working much better than pipe.

K

Kevin

slug
04-09-2014, 01:08 PM
Very very little rubber hose on modern yachts. I rarely see it.

Short flex links only.

Rubber hose is bulky , easily damaged , hard to secure and hard to service. Most times you have to cut the hose to free it from a valve nipple and if the valve or union was metal , you probably have a corrosion issue. to many metallic fitting in the plumbing is an problem. The reason i was re plumbimg the watermaker was because a metallic three way valve was leaking do to corrosion.

Hard PP piping is all unions ,mechanical joints and non metalic valves. Easy to service, compact and durable.

even the rubber hose links could be eliminated with flex bellows unions but they are a but bulky and clumsy to service.

a typical supplier of PP tube and fittings would be

http://www.gfps.com/content/gfps/com/en/products_and_solutions/solutions/overview/ship-building.html

other suppliers around. If you are working to flag state or class society then your should consult a Naval Architect.

http://s7.postimg.org/vuic0nsej/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
subir fotos (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

Hwyl
04-14-2014, 08:17 PM
No explanation of the problems, but a nice blog post. It contains a copy of an email that has the "f" word in it, you'll be offended by the emaii,, but if you're offended by the word, don't open the link.

http://www.therebelheart.com/charlottes-blog/2014/4/13/overwhelmed-shocked-saddened.htm

(http://www.therebelheart.com/charlottes-blog/2014/4/13/overwhelmed-shocked-saddened.htm)

Garret
04-14-2014, 08:27 PM
Gareth's link didn't work for me, but this one did (has a bit more to it): http://www.therebelheart.com/charlottes-blog/2014/4/13/overwhelmed-shocked-saddened.html#entry34755921

Thanks Gareth!

Hwyl
04-14-2014, 09:48 PM
The rescuers, in a very guarded press conference.

http://www.dvidshub.net/video/328690/guardian-angels-rebel-heart-search#.U0ydXVdHbIU

Boater14
04-14-2014, 09:56 PM
Shouldn't there be a seperate bung thread? I'm not a blue water sailer but I am a parent and grandparent. Those people were a-holes. where are you conservatives? That rescue put them on a Level with 20 welfare queens. A little outrage or....were they white?

Hwyl
04-14-2014, 10:03 PM
Did you actually read the blog or watch the video?

Boater14
04-15-2014, 07:58 AM
No. I actually read about he whole mess in that big paper thing the guy throws in my driveway every morning. Spoiled selfish immature jerks.

bogdog
04-15-2014, 08:08 AM
You would be amazed at the repair qualities of a large spud.
Solanum tuberosumAnd there may be enough left for ammo.
http://www.spudtech.com/images/products/UOkcannonfull.jpg

Garret
04-15-2014, 08:25 AM
That is one serious potato gun!

Garret
04-15-2014, 08:27 AM
No. I actually read about he whole mess in that big paper thing the guy throws in my driveway every morning. Spoiled selfish immature jerks.

And you're sure the paper had the whole story, told with no bias?

If so, I've got a great deal on a bridge I'd like to talk to you about.

Breakaway
04-15-2014, 08:48 AM
Regardless of their experience, or of their preparedness, or of the condition of their boat, the fact remains that they put the lives of their rescuers at risk. Secondarily,they cost society an amount of money wholly disproportionate to what any other multitude of individuals might hope receive when in need. ( medical, housing, food...).

Its a question we have revisited here before: Should our military rescue people who go offshore? Personally, I cannot answer that. While I do not cross oceans, I do venture out 100 or so miles from shore for 2-3 days at a time. I am experienced, I go prepared, and the boats are top-notch. But, I must say that I would happily scramble from a life raft to reach the hoist of an HH60 from the 106th ANG, which happen to be stationed right here.

I don't count on it in my plans. I don't do what I do because of their presence. But I would not refuse the ride home if it came to that.

Is it right? Should I or anyone else waive our "right" to have agencies make a rescue attempt? If so, what would the role of rescue agencies be? Commercial interests only? Or do we set a limit of miles offshore?

I wont comment on mountaineers or wilderness trekkers, since I have little experience there.

Kevin

slug
04-15-2014, 08:57 AM
What is the whole story ? Why did they abandon ship ?

Hwyl
04-15-2014, 10:59 AM
If you took the time to watch the press conference I posted, they say:

There was nothing wrong with the boat, there was a leak that 3 minutes of pumping every 12 hours took care of. The SSB was not working

The baby was not critical but would have been within two days.

The rescue forces said that they viewed it as a very good training exercise and were pleased for the opportunity "we're in the people rescuing business not the charging business".

In particular the C130 pilot was pleased to use the predictive search computer aboard, as they were receiving no signal from the boat after the initial EPIRB contact

Ian McColgin
04-15-2014, 12:10 PM
Good to know the boat was fine. They could not take off just the baby - mom would have to go. Really could not leave the dad with the other child so at a minimum mom and both kids go. As I understand US rescue protocol, they will not leave a vessel undercrewed and while plenty of folk have singlehanded this route, I doubt that they would have given the option of sailing on alone even had he wanted to, which I've not seen discussed.

Analagous to this, a friend was rescued after being smacked by two hurricanes down by Eluthera someplace. His crew was very seasick and rescue was close at hand. The Coast Guard forced the issue that my friend, the boat owner, had to be plucked first. They'd seen too many times where once crew was safe the yacht owner refused to leave.

So it does happen that a reasonably sound boat gets abandoned. My friend's boat was probably shredded on a reef. In the present case, I believe the navy sank her to remove a hazard to navigation.

Breakaway
04-15-2014, 01:18 PM
Hmmm..

This passage from the owner's "Rebel Heart" blog would seem to indicate the boat in greater peril than otherwise noted.

During the two and a half days those four men spent on our lagging vessel, they helped us manually pump our bilge every few hours. They physically held our children during the rough seas to keep them safe. They slept for three nights in a tiny, cramped cabin that poured seawater with every breaking wave.

Kevin

slug
04-15-2014, 02:38 PM
I cant watch videos because Im on a yacht and my internet connection doesn't permit it .

Abandoning ship is a dangerous maneuver for both crew and rescue personnel ... Abandoning ship with tiny children is double dangerous.

you seem to indicate that the condition of the child was critical ? Abandonment of the entire crew, including healthy children , was Not for safety at sea reasons , but because one child was sick ??.

is this true .?

Hwyl
04-15-2014, 02:41 PM
yep

Ian McColgin
04-15-2014, 05:45 PM
You do not need video to read the OP and the next copied black print news stories. A working knowledge of written English should do.

peb
04-16-2014, 07:03 AM
Hmmm..

This passage from the owner's "Rebel Heart" blog would seem to indicate the boat in greater peril than otherwise noted.

During the two and a half days those four men spent on our lagging vessel, they helped us manually pump our bilge every few hours. They physically held our children during the rough seas to keep them safe. They slept for three nights in a tiny, cramped cabin that poured seawater with every breaking wave.

Kevin

I read that as not really catastrophic. Every few hours didnt seen like a huge amount if incoming water. I suppose maybe that was after some sort of jury rigged repair, so maybe the danger existed that is could get a lot worse.

It sounds to me the boat was sunk because not enough crew to get her home, as Iam suggested.

Breakaway
04-16-2014, 07:09 AM
Kevin I read that as not really catastrophic. Every few hours didnt seen like a huge amount if incoming water. I suppose maybe that was after some sort of jury rigged repair, so maybe the danger existed that is could get a lot worse.

I get that. But its still not clear because in the one sentence he states pumping every few hours; in the next sentence he states the boat, "poured seawater with every wave."

Of course he wrote the words in the wake of a tragedy, so perhaps some slack for lack of focus should be granted.

Kevin

Ian McColgin
04-16-2014, 07:52 AM
I took the "poured seawater with every breaking wave" as the water that comes in around the hatches in sloshy nasty seas. It's really more like drips or spritzes as the wave washes along, but after a day or two with everything soaked and everyone tired it's more than annoying.