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Ian McColgin
04-04-2014, 08:31 PM
Published on Friday, April 4, 2014 by TruthDig.com

Studies Confirm the Dehumanization of Black Children and the ‘Preschool-to-Prison Pipeline’
by Sonali Kolhatkar

Although African-Americans constitute only 13 percent of all Americans, nearly half of all prison inmates in the U.S. are black. This startling statistic has led the United Nations Human Rights Committee to publicly criticize the U.S. for its treatment of African-Americans. A number of recent studies and reports paint a damning picture of how American society dehumanizes blacks starting from early childhood.

Racial justice activists and prison abolition groups have long argued that the “school-to-prison” pipeline funnels young black kids into the criminal justice system, with higher rates of school suspension and arrest compared with nonblack kids for the same infractions. More than 20 years ago, Smith College professor Ann Arnett Ferguson wrote a groundbreaking book based on her three-year study of how black boys in particular are perceived differently starting in school. In “Bad Boys: Public Schools in the Making of Black Masculinity,” Ferguson laid out the ways in which educators and administrators funneled black male students into the juvenile justice system based on perceived differences between them and other students.

Today this trend continues with record numbers of suspensions as a result of “zero-tolerance” school policies and the increasing presence of campus police officers who arrest students for insubordination, fights and other types of behavior that might be considered normal “acting out” in school-aged children. In fact, black youth are far more likely to be suspended from school than any other race. They also face disproportionate expulsion and arrest rates, and once children enter the juvenile justice system they are far more likely to be incarcerated as adults.

Even the Justice Department under President Obama has understood what a serious problem this is, issuing a set of new guidelines earlier this year to curb discriminatory suspension in schools.

But it turns out that negative disciplinary actions affect African-American children starting as early as age 3. The U.S. Department of Education just released a comprehensive study of public schools, revealing in a report that black children face discrimination even in preschool. (That preschool-aged children are suspended at all is hugely disturbing.) Data from the 2011-2012 year show that although black children make up only 18 percent of preschoolers, 42 percent of them were suspended at least once and 48 percent were suspended multiple times.

Consistent with this educational data and taking into account broader demographic, family and economic data for children of various races, broken down by state, is a newer study released this week by the Annie E. Casey Foundation that found African-American children are on the lowest end of nearly every measured index including proficiency in math and reading, high school graduation, poverty and parental education. The report, titled Race for Results, plainly says, “The index scores for African-American children should be considered a national crisis.”

Two other studies published recently offer specific evidence of how black children are so disadvantaged at an early age. One research project, published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, examined how college students and police officers estimated the ages of children who they were told had committed crimes. Both groups studied by UCLA professor Phillip Goff and collaborators were more likely to overestimate the ages of black children compared with nonblack ones, implying that black children were seen as “significantly less innocent” than others. The authors wrote:

We expected ... that individuals would perceive Black boys as being more responsible for their actions and as being more appropriate targets for police violence. We find support for these hypotheses ... and converging evidence that Black boys are seen as older and less innocent and that they prompt a less essential conception of childhood than do their White same-age peers.

Another study by researchers at UC Riverside found that teachers tended to be more likely to evaluate black children negatively than nonblack ones who were engaged in pretend play. Psychology professor Tuppett M. Yates, who led the study, observed 171 preschool-aged children interacting with stuffed toys and other props and evaluated them for how imaginative and creative they were. In an interview on Uprising, Yates told me that all the children, regardless of race, were “similarly imaginative and similarly expressive,” but when their teachers evaluated those same children at a later time, there was a discriminatory effect. Yates explained, “For white children, imaginative and expressive players were rated very positively [by teachers] but the reverse was true for black children. Imaginative and expressive black children were perceived as less ready for school, as less accepted by their peers, and as greater sources of conflict and tension.”

Although it is clear that negative behaviors were magnified through “race-colored glasses,” according to Yates, her study of children engaged in pretend play found that “there is also potentially a systematic devaluing of positive attributes among black children.” This made her concerned about how “very early on, some kids are being educated towards innovation and leadership and others may be educated towards more menial or concrete social positions.”

Reflecting on the 2001 book “Bad Boys” and how little seems to have changed since then, Yates affirmed that author Ferguson’s assertion that black children are given a “hidden curriculum” is still true now. She told me, “Our data suggests that that hidden curriculum may be persisting today and that it’s starting much earlier than we ever could have anticipated.” She noted her deep concern that “we’re actually reproducing inequality generation after generation.”

When I asked her to comment on the Goff study showing police estimates of black children as older than they are, Yates agreed that it appears as though “the same objective data are being interpreted differently as a function of race.” Ferguson also apparently noted this trend, calling it an “adultification” of black boys. Yates recounted an example from Ferguson’s work in which “when a white student fails to return their library book, they’re seen as forgetful and when a black student fails to return a library book, terms like ‘thief’ or ‘looter’ were used.”

Studies such as these consistently show that African-Americans have the deck stacked against them starting in early childhood through adulthood. Taken together, they make a strong case for the existence of a “preschool-to-prison” pipeline and the systematic dehumanization that black children face in American society.

Yates summarized, “Across these different studies, black children are viewed differently. They are consequently given less access to the kinds of structural avenues required to advance in our society and ultimately they become less valued in our culture,” and are ultimately “fast tracked to the margins.”

Daily Beast staff writer Jamelle Bouie, writing about black preschoolers being disproportionately suspended, provocatively asked, “Are Black Students Unruly? Or is America Just Racist?” Yates gave me the obvious answer saying, “We know that [discrimination] exists. It’s the most parsimonious explanation for these kinds of persistent inequalities.”

But perhaps there is also an element of justifiable unruliness involved. Yates offered that “black children—rightfully so—are more likely to disengage from their educational milieus and potentially rebel against them because these systems are at best failing to support them, and at worst channeling them into this pipeline towards negative ends.”

She indicted American society as a whole, saying, “Our educational system, our economic system, our judicial system, all of these are converging to reproduce these kinds of inequalities and perpetuate the criminalization of blacks in our culture.”

Although Attorney General Eric Holder’s push to reform mandatory minimum sentences that disproportionately incarcerate African-Americans is indeed laudable, strong action is needed now to address the early childhood barriers facing black kids. The preschool-to-prison pipeline needs to be dismantled from its starting point rather than simply its endpoint.

Ultimately, “change,” Yates said, “is really going to require effort at all levels such as individual teachers, superintendents, police officers, attorneys general and even in the media.”

© 2014 TruthDig.com
Sonali Kolhatkar is Co-Director of the Afghan Women's Mission, a US-based non-profit that supports women's rights activists in Afghanistan. Sonali is also co-author of "Bleeding Afghanistan: Washington, Warlords, and the Propaganda of Silence." She is the host and producer of Uprising, a nationally syndicated radio program with the Pacifica Network.

Jim Bow
04-04-2014, 08:55 PM
Add to the above the creation of prisons run by for-profit corporations. In order for them to make their profit, they require a constant stream of prisoners with lengthy sentences.

If an angry black teen yells at a cop, he goes to jail.
If an angry white teen yells at a cop, his parents get called.

Phillip Allen
04-04-2014, 09:04 PM
Add to the above the creation of prisons run by for-profit corporations. In order for them to make their profit, they require a constant stream of prisoners with lengthy sentences.

If an angry black teen yells at a cop, he goes to jail.
If an angry white teen yells at a cop, his parents get called.

depends on the city/state... more likely in big cities like Chicago or Detroit... not an absolute but common just the same

Jim Bow
04-04-2014, 09:09 PM
depends on the city/state... more likely in big cities like Chicago or Detroit... not an absolute but common just the same
And Seattle, Tacoma, and Portland.

Phillip Allen
04-04-2014, 09:25 PM
And Seattle, Tacoma, and Portland.

I certainly didn't try to name them all... prolly some small towns too but that gets a bit harder to predict

PeterSibley
04-04-2014, 09:44 PM
Add to the above the creation of prisons run by for-profit corporations. In order for them to make their profit, they require a constant stream of prisoners with lengthy sentences.

If an angry black teen yells at a cop, he goes to jail.
If an angry white teen yells at a cop, his parents get called.

Follow the money.

skuthorp
04-05-2014, 05:43 AM
It's the casual racism that's the worst, the natural presumption that the voice you hear is of the same cultural background as you, or that the asian face you see will have an accent to match. The assumption that in a mixed group the white face is in charge. I presume that other cultures presume the same.
Once, at a scout jamboree, I heard a sing song west indian accent behind me an turned expecting a black face. Grenville's family had been in the Indies for generations, he was a descendant of Sir Richard Grenville. He was whit and blonde haired. I can still remember the surprise.

slug
04-05-2014, 05:48 AM
Yah..I recently heard about a study of Asian Americans. Since asians seem to excel at science and math , teachers assumed that they were naturally smarter and concentrated their teaching efforts on these asian students. When these students graduate and look for a job , employers naturally think they are better at math and science because they are asian.

Its just the way the world works.....

Peerie Maa
04-05-2014, 06:50 AM
Back to the OP.
Our police were shown to suffer from institutionalised racism with the Stephen Lawrence Case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence). It is not absolutely clear that we have out grown it yet, but we are doing all that we can.

slug
04-05-2014, 07:39 AM
You cant grow out of it... You are programed to distrust outsiders as a self defense mechanism. No amount of touchy feely insensitivity training can overcome this.


How long it takes an outsider to become a local is a good question. i can take you to a small town in Croatia that has an Italian neighborhood....locals dont trust them. These Italians have lived there for several centuries.

skuthorp
04-05-2014, 07:42 AM
Tribes again slug. If we haven't got one we'll invent it.

slug
04-05-2014, 07:49 AM
Its just they way it is...across the street is an Italian, a French, a British , a spanish and a German Cafe...You can guess who the clients are.....

any outsider who tries to do business locally will have to make thier peace....if not there will be trouble.

In the US you don't attend an Ivy League school for the education...you attend to join a tribe.

Again...its just the way the world works. .....no use complaining.

BrianW
04-05-2014, 08:11 AM
Published on Friday, April 4, 2014 by TruthDig.com

Studies Confirm the Dehumanization of Black Children and the ‘Preschool-to-Prison Pipeline’
by Sonali Kolhatkar

But it turns out that negative disciplinary actions affect African-American children starting as early as age 3. The U.S. Department of Education just released a comprehensive study of public schools, revealing in a report that black children face discrimination even in preschool. (That preschool-aged children are suspended at all is hugely disturbing.) Data from the 2011-2012 year show that although black children make up only 18 percent of preschoolers, 42 percent of them were suspended at least once and 48 percent were suspended multiple times.

Interesting article. Lots of data quoted.

About the statistic in bold text above... is sounds horrible, but is it a bit misleading?

Does the 18% black student population number really mean anything because 42% of them were suspended? Now if it said that number of students suspended were black 42% of the time, and there's only 18% black students, that would mean something.

If that stat is misleading, what about the rest of the article?

Peerie Maa
04-05-2014, 08:27 AM
Interesting article. Lots of data quoted.

About the statistic in bold text above... is sounds horrible, but is it a bit misleading?

Does the 18% black student population number really mean anything because 42% of them were suspended? Now if it said that number of students suspended were black 42% of the time, and there's only 18% black students, that would mean something.

If that stat is misleading, what about the rest of the article?

I have no difficulty in understanding the 42% stat. How the suspended more than once % is higher is a problem. What is missing is what % of non blacks are suspended. If that is significantly lower than 40% then yes the system is racist.

BrianW
04-05-2014, 08:44 AM
I have no difficulty in understanding the 42% stat. How the suspended more than once % is higher is a problem. What is missing is what % of non blacks are suspended. If that is significantly lower than 40% then yes the system is racist.

Oh I understand the statistic.

Out of a group of kids, 42% of them got suspended. That's all it really means.

If they said 42% of all the kids suspended were black, and blacks only make up 18% of the student population, that would be more shocking.

I think the author knew exactly what the stat really means, and used it anyhow, hoping most people would gloss over it and not realize it was horsepoop.

Ian McColgin
04-05-2014, 09:03 AM
The cited number that BrianW chose to create his own meaning for [#13.15] and then speculated fatuously about is readily found and clarified in the actual report. In fact, it’s about the first paragraph.

“• Suspension of preschool children, by race/ethnicity and gender (new for 2011-2012 collection): Black
children represent 18% of preschool enrollment, but 48% of preschool children receiving more than one out-of-
school suspension; in comparison, white students represent 43% of preschool enrollment but 26% of preschool
children receiving more than one out of school suspension. Boys represent 79% of preschool children
suspended once and 82% of preschool children suspended multiple times, although boys represent 54% of
preschool enrollment.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/crdc-discipline-snapshot.pdf

Yes the news story in my OP worded their summary very badly, but rather than make assumptions that might have their own racist tinge, I chose to take a few seconds to find the report.

It’s clear.

The additional boy/girl numbers give some hint as to the special problem of growing up a black boy.

Edited to add: When I read the story it may be that the lens of my years dealing with racism caused me to read it as the study turns out to have meant it. But when I read BrianW's remarks I saw that the OP story really did admit a number of interpretations and that's what caused me to check the sourse. Since the exact cite to the study was not named, I just used google "US dept of education report discipline black students" and got it right off. Gotta say, the soft logic data bases are a wonderful search tool.

Tom Hunter
04-05-2014, 09:10 AM
There is a real problem with this in the USA, and its very expensive for the country. However Brian is spot on, the author is either too dumb to understand what the statistics mean, or deliberately trying to pull a fast one on us. Neither of which is really helpful. The other thing to note is the problem varies a lot by state and at the local level.

Ian McColgin
04-05-2014, 09:22 AM
I am hoping that Tom Hunter wrote before he had an opportunity to read my post #16.

BrianW
04-05-2014, 09:30 AM
The cited number that BrianW chose to create his own meaning for [#13.15] and then speculated fatuously about is readily found and clarified in the actual report. In fact, it’s about the first paragraph.

I did not create a meaning for the stat, I read it as written and pointed out the flaw.

I read exactly what you quoted and came to a true and logical conclusion. If the author screwed up the article, it's her fault not mine.

BrianW
04-05-2014, 09:32 AM
Here we go again...


“• Suspension of preschool children, by race/ethnicity and gender (new for 2011-2012 collection): Black
children represent 18% of preschool enrollment, but 48% of preschool children receiving more than one out-of-
school suspension; in comparison, white students represent 43% of preschool enrollment but 26% of preschool
children receiving more than one out of school suspension. Boys represent 79% of preschool children
suspended once and 82% of preschool children suspended multiple times, although boys represent 54% of
preschool enrollment.

It appears racism is secondary to sexism in the problem of suspended pre-schoolers. :D

BrianW
04-05-2014, 09:36 AM
I'm all for reducing the number of incarcerated people who are there for silly stuff.

Johnny Cash understood and pointed out this nonsense back in 1971...


Well, you wonder why I always dress in black,
Why you never see bright colors on my back,
And why does my appearance seem to have a somber tone.
Well, there's a reason for the things that I have on.

I wear the black for the poor and the beaten down,
Livin' in the hopeless, hungry side of town,
I wear it for the prisoner who has long paid for his crime,
But is there because he's a victim of the times.

I wear the black for those who never read,
Or listened to the words that Jesus said,
About the road to happiness through love and charity,
Why, you'd think He's talking straight to you and me.

Well, we're doin' mighty fine, I do suppose,
In our streak of lightnin' cars and fancy clothes,
But just so we're reminded of the ones who are held back,
Up front there ought 'a be a Man In Black.

I wear it for the sick and lonely old,
For the reckless ones whose bad trip left them cold,
I wear the black in mournin' for the lives that could have been,
Each week we lose a hundred fine young men.

And, I wear it for the thousands who have died,
Believen' that the Lord was on their side,
I wear it for another hundred thousand who have died,
Believen' that we all were on their side.

Well, there's things that never will be right I know,
And things need changin' everywhere you go,
But 'til we start to make a move to make a few things right,
You'll never see me wear a suit of white.

Ah, I'd love to wear a rainbow every day,
And tell the world that everything's OK,
But I'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back,
'Till things are brighter, I'm the Man In Black.



I'm not against the general position of the article. I just pointed out some wrong info.

oznabrag
04-05-2014, 09:38 AM
I think Mr. Hunter might like to peruse Mr. McColgin's most recent post (#16).

Mr. Hunter might also be interested in examining the possibility that he is very quick to deny that institutional racism is a pervasive problem in these United States that knows no geographical obstacles.

A question: Does a black man with a Southern accent have more trouble getting a job in New York City than a black man who sounds like he's from M'waukee?

Another question: Which of these two men has an easier time avoiding incarceration in, say, LA?

Too Little Time
04-05-2014, 09:40 AM
(That preschool-aged children are suspended at all is hugely disturbing.)
It is disturbing. But schools seem to have unreasonable policies.

Too Little Time
04-05-2014, 10:03 AM
When I read the story it may be that the lens of my years dealing with racism caused me to read it as the study turns out to have meant it.
With my years of NOT dealing with racism I have a different lens.

Without regard to race different groups of kids have different backgrounds and react to authority differently. Without regard to race different "authorities" will have different expectations of proper bahavior. This leads to conflict.

It is not hard to see that without regard to race some group with common behaviors and reactions to authority will have complaints of discrimination and imporper treatment. Racial differences are part of the cause of these conflicts. But not racism.


There is a comment I heard "When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras." That is treat situations in the way that is normal not exceptional. You see racism as normal so you see racism in many situations. I don't see racism as the norm. So I don't see racism in many situations.

School situations are Rorschach tests. They tell us more about ourselves than about the situation.

slug
04-05-2014, 10:03 AM
Perhaps you should reject that racism charge and study the effects of black family breakdown

Race and Social Problems
Springer
Single Parenting and Child Behavior Problems in Kindergarten
Aurora P. Jackson, Kathleen S. J. Preston, and Todd M. Franke


Additional article information


Abstract
Two waves of data from a sample of 89 poor and near-poor single black mothers and their preschool children were used to study the influences of parenting stress, physical discipline practices, and nonresident fathers’ relations with their children on behavior problems in kindergarten. The results indicate that higher levels of parent stress, more frequent spanking, and less frequent father–child contact at time 1 were associated with increased teacher-reported behavior problems at time 2. In addition, more frequent contact between nonresident biological fathers and their children moderated the negative effect of harsh discipline by mothers on subsequent child behavior problems. Specifically, when contact with the father was low, maternal spanking resulted in elevated levels of behavior problems......




In 2006, nearly 80% of births to black women under the age of 30 were to single mothers. For black children, more than half (51%) are in families headed by single-parent mothers (American Community Survey 2007; U.S. Census Bureau 2006), and children in these families have extraordinarily high rates of poverty (Duncan and Brooks-Gunn 1997; Huston et al. 1994). Differences in discipline practices may account for some of the variation in child behavior in poor and single-parent black families. While the effects of discipline on mainly white samples have received a great deal of research, the literature on within-group differences in discipline practices among single black mothers raising young children in poverty is sparse (see, for example, Harrison et al. 1990; Jackson et al. 1998; Lansford et al.

oznabrag
04-05-2014, 10:05 AM
With my years of NOT dealing with racism I have a different lens.
...

Speaks volumes.

oznabrag
04-05-2014, 10:20 AM
Perhaps you should reject that racism charge and study the effects of black family breakdown

Race and Social Problems
Springer
Single Parenting and Child Behavior Problems in Kindergarten
Aurora P. Jackson, Kathleen S. J. Preston, and Todd M. Franke


Additional article information


Abstract
Two waves of data from a sample of 89 poor and near-poor single black mothers and their preschool children were used to study the influences of parenting stress, physical discipline practices, and nonresident fathers’ relations with their children on behavior problems in kindergarten. The results indicate that higher levels of parent stress, more frequent spanking, and less frequent father–child contact at time 1 were associated with increased teacher-reported behavior problems at time 2. In addition, more frequent contact between nonresident biological fathers and their children moderated the negative effect of harsh discipline by mothers on subsequent child behavior problems. Specifically, when contact with the father was low, maternal spanking resulted in elevated levels of behavior problems......




In 2006, nearly 80% of births to black women under the age of 30 were to single mothers. For black children, more than half (51%) are in families headed by single-parent mothers (American Community Survey 2007; U.S. Census Bureau 2006), and children in these families have extraordinarily high rates of poverty (Duncan and Brooks-Gunn 1997; Huston et al. 1994). Differences in discipline practices may account for some of the variation in child behavior in poor and single-parent black families. While the effects of discipline on mainly white samples have received a great deal of research, the literature on within-group differences in discipline practices among single black mothers raising young children in poverty is sparse (see, for example, Harrison et al. 1990; Jackson et al. 1998; Lansford et al.

Chicken or egg?

Which came first, Slavery or Racism?

Slavery is (was?) an economic system, while Racism is a Social Disease.

Slavery has been illegal in this country for right at 150 years, while Racism is alive and well and living large.

Every attempt at actually DOING SOMETHING about racism is met with scoffing denial and howls of protest. Why? Because it is EXTREMELY uncomfortable to peer into the abyss that is the dark part of our souls, the part that is able to hate, rob, imprison or kill another human being for the sole reason that 'god' made that person differently from the way he made us.

We all do it, but that does not mean that this behavior should be left unchallenged, or that it should be casually tolerated as 'just the way it is'.

US culture treats Black people just the same way Michael Vick treated Pit Bulldogs, so none of us should be surprised that black culture has devolved into its present state. It has taken ~400 years for us to dehumanize, humiliate, abase and destroy this People. It is going to take a LOT of work and unflinching self-examination to begin to heal them.

When you gaze into the Abyss, remember that it also gazes into you.

Ian McColgin
04-05-2014, 10:27 AM
One can look at the black family as George Will does (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/26/black-single-mothers-biggest-impediment_n_3818824.html) to blame the single mothers or you can look at the same complex family, social, economic and institutional issues with an eye towards change. For white people, that means we look deeply within and embark on a very long, probably life long, journey.

oznabrag
04-05-2014, 10:40 AM
One can look at the black family as George Will does (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/26/black-single-mothers-biggest-impediment_n_3818824.html) to blame the single mothers or you can look at the same complex family, social, economic and institutional issues with an eye towards change. For white people, that means we look deeply within and embark on a very long, probably life long, journey.

You can also look at the Black family the way Bill Cosby does.

Dr. Huxtable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf6N22dyqBA was intended to be a positive example to the whole US of just what a black man's life was supposed to be.

Tom Hunter
04-05-2014, 10:43 AM
I stand by my first post: There is a really big problem with institutional racism in the US, and the article Ian posted makes terrible use of statistics, either through ineptitude by the author, or out of a purposeful desire to confuse the audience. In that regard Brian is absolutely correct.

If we want to solve problems we have to understand them. The paper Ian cites does a good job of describing the problem, but the article he posted originally does a poor job.

Ian McColgin
04-05-2014, 10:47 AM
Fine, let's blame unwed black mothers and a poorly written summary sentence while assuming that Cosby's (not to mention both adult Obamas') pointed remarks mean that white people are not part of the problem. All of us white guys can feel better now.

slug
04-05-2014, 12:11 PM
i dont understand what you have written.

did white folks get the black women pregnant ? Or did they fail to take care of her child for her ?

oznabrag
04-05-2014, 12:51 PM
i dont understand what you have written.

did white folks get the black women pregnant ? Or did they fail to take care of her child for her ?

It is pretty clear that you don't understand what YOU have written, either.

slug
04-05-2014, 12:56 PM
I understand completely.


80 percent of births to black women under 30 were single mothers.

The children of these single mothers have behavioral problems at school



what do you not understand ?

PhaseLockedLoop
04-05-2014, 12:56 PM
...did white folks get the black women pregnant ? Or did they fail to take care of her child for her ?

Perfectly possible. Happens all the time.

Ian McColgin
04-05-2014, 01:08 PM
For those interested in something other than guilt free sloganeering, one interesting essay is at http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/07/singleparent_households_and_black_children_educati on_not_affected_as_much_as_you_think.html

oznabrag
04-05-2014, 01:26 PM
I understand completely.


80 percent of births to black women under 30 were single mothers.

The children of these single mothers have behavioral problems at school



what do you not understand ?

I don't understand the level of denial you have immersed yourself in.

For 400 years, black people in this country have been abused. Their self-worth destroyed, their lives twisted beyond YOUR comprehension, and these abuses and twistings are to the benefit of white people. They are now largely scapegoats for the failings of white people, and fodder for the private, for-profit prison industry.

You seem to believe they have innate failings because of the way 'god' made them: Black.

Judging by your post to Tracey's Women Thread, you feel the same way about women.

Judging by your post to Ian's Fundy War On Homosexuals thread, you feel the same way about homosexuals.

In light of these self-revelations, you are on the fast track to my ignore list.

Waddie
04-05-2014, 03:28 PM
Let's stop lumping black people all into the same basket. Most of them are doing just fine, and their families are as functional as any other group, About half the guys I play softball with are black, and they're as solidly middle class as any other group. They do know the black community has a problem, however. And most of them feel that the problems are due in large part to the breakdown of that black community. So they're not in denial, nor do they blame "whitey" for all their problems. They're as upset about the statistics as many of the rest of us are. Nor do I believe that most Americans are racist and out to get the black man. Most of those black kids who get suspended deserve to get suspended. Many of them get suspended from black schools who have black administrators. To make excuses for bad behavior in the black community is itself racist.

There is, however, serious and very detrimental institutional racism in this country. (The following stats might not be perfectly accurate, but they're in the ballpark). About one in five black males are in the justice system to some degree, with some in jail, others in prison, others on probation, etc. Black achievement scores atill lag white scores. Single parent births are very high, and black kids drop out of school at an alarming rate. I could go on and on with these negative statistics but you all get the picture. And black people know they have a problem. And part of that problem is that they are virtually powerless to affect much change.

Where racism comes into play is that if those statistics described the white community there would be a political upheaval in this country. Politician's heads would roll. Politicians would be forced from office. No expense would be too much to solve the problems. We would all be in a panic. It would be a national emergency of the first order. But for the most part white America sees this as a black problem, sometimes because it is difficult to help without being considered intruding, sometimes because we are so segregated that we don't see the problem first hand, and sometimes because it just isn't a priority. But with just 13% of the population, black people will never be in a position to declare this the national emergency it truly is. Even within the Democratic party these problems don't receive near the attention they would receive if we were talking about white kids. Blacks just don't have that kind of political clout. Voting as a block for the Democrats doesn't help their cause, either. Republicans write off the black vote while Democrats pay just enough lip service to these problems to keep them in the Democratic party, and neither side considers their problems a national emergency. Black people are aware of this situation, they just don't know how to change it. They don't have much love for Democrats, and they know the Republicans won't do much. So we're all left with the status quo.

regards,
Waddie

slug
04-05-2014, 03:52 PM
I don't understand the level of denial you have immersed yourself in.

For 400 years, black people in this country have been abused. Their self-worth destroyed, their lives twisted beyond YOUR comprehension, and these abuses and twistings are to the benefit of white people. They are now largely scapegoats for the failings of white people, and fodder for the private, for-profit prison industry.

You seem to believe they have innate failings because of the way 'god' made them: Black.

Judging by your post to Tracey's Women Thread, you feel the same way about women.

Judging by your post to Ian's Fundy War On Homosexuals thread, you feel the same way about homosexuals.

In light of these self-revelations, you are on the fast track to my ignore list.



gee, youre all puffed up. Be my guest, Press the button

oznabrag
04-05-2014, 04:08 PM
LOL!

John Smith
04-05-2014, 04:18 PM
With my years of NOT dealing with racism I have a different lens.

Without regard to race different groups of kids have different backgrounds and react to authority differently. Without regard to race different "authorities" will have different expectations of proper bahavior. This leads to conflict.

It is not hard to see that without regard to race some group with common behaviors and reactions to authority will have complaints of discrimination and imporper treatment. Racial differences are part of the cause of these conflicts. But not racism.


There is a comment I heard "When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras." That is treat situations in the way that is normal not exceptional. You see racism as normal so you see racism in many situations. I don't see racism as the norm. So I don't see racism in many situations.

School situations are Rorschach tests. They tell us more about ourselves than about the situation.

I can testify to the fact that if one of our black employees took the run to Dunkin Donuts to get our collective order, he had a good probability of being stopped simply for being black and driving through Glen Ridge. I can attest to a black supervisor on route inspection in Clifton NY getting arrested because someone found a black man in suit walking in a white neighborhood "suspicious." Those who wish to can find statistics showing, when Whitman was governor, 85% of the drivers on the NJ Turnpike were white. 85% of the tickets issues were issued to black drivers.

A few years ago a study was made where they sent resumes to jobs available. The content of the resumes were identical, but the names were different. Black sounding names got no interviews.

Many studies have shown that black people get more jail time for the same crime as white people, and the are more likely to be executed.

I find it hard to believe there exists an American citizen who isn't aware of this.

John Smith
04-05-2014, 04:21 PM
Let's stop lumping black people all into the same basket. Most of them are doing just fine, and their families are as functional as any other group, About half the guys I play softball with are black, and they're as solidly middle class as any other group. They do know the black community has a problem, however. And most of them feel that the problems are due in large part to the breakdown of that black community. So they're not in denial, nor do they blame "whitey" for all their problems. They're as upset about the statistics as many of the rest of us are. Nor do I believe that most Americans are racist and out to get the black man. Most of those black kids who get suspended deserve to get suspended. Many of them get suspended from black schools who have black administrators. To make excuses for bad behavior in the black community is itself racist.

There is, however, serious and very detrimental institutional racism in this country. (The following stats might not be perfectly accurate, but they're in the ballpark). About one in five black males are in the justice system to some degree, with some in jail, others in prison, others on probation, etc. Black achievement scores atill lag white scores. Single parent births are very high, and black kids drop out of school at an alarming rate. I could go on and on with these negative statistics but you all get the picture. And black people know they have a problem. And part of that problem is that they are virtually powerless to affect much change.

Where racism comes into play is that if those statistics described the white community there would be a political upheaval in this country. Politician's heads would roll. Politicians would be forced from office. No expense would be too much to solve the problems. We would all be in a panic. It would be a national emergency of the first order. But for the most part white America sees this as a black problem, sometimes because it is difficult to help without being considered intruding, sometimes because we are so segregated that we don't see the problem first hand, and sometimes because it just isn't a priority. But with just 13% of the population, black people will never be in a position to declare this the national emergency it truly is. Even within the Democratic party these problems don't receive near the attention they would receive if we were talking about white kids. Blacks just don't have that kind of political clout. Voting as a block for the Democrats doesn't help their cause, either. Republicans write off the black vote while Democrats pay just enough lip service to these problems to keep them in the Democratic party, and neither side considers their problems a national emergency. Black people are aware of this situation, they just don't know how to change it. They don't have much love for Democrats, and they know the Republicans won't do much. So we're all left with the status quo.

regards,
Waddie

I can also attest that my brother and my aunt (both T party members) hated Obama because he is black. You think they were alone?

Too Little Time
04-05-2014, 07:57 PM
I can testify to the fact that if one of our black employees took the run to Dunkin Donuts to get our collective order, he had a good probability of being stopped simply for being black and driving through Glen Ridge. I can attest to a black supervisor on route inspection in Clifton NY getting arrested because someone found a black man in suit walking in a white neighborhood "suspicious." Those who wish to can find statistics showing, when Whitman was governor, 85% of the drivers on the NJ Turnpike were white. 85% of the tickets issues were issued to black drivers.

A few years ago a study was made where they sent resumes to jobs available. The content of the resumes were identical, but the names were different. Black sounding names got no interviews.

Many studies have shown that black people get more jail time for the same crime as white people, and the are more likely to be executed.

I find it hard to believe there exists an American citizen who isn't aware of this.

I was taking about school situations.

School is where many blacks and whites develop their impressions of each other. I would suggest that the early behaviors of both groups led to the situations you describe.

I don't know how to solve the problem, but I do know that claiming racism will not solve the problem.

Ian McColgin
04-05-2014, 07:59 PM
"Claiming" racism does nothing. Noticing the disparate treatment - really! third graders! - is a start. Can't solve a problem you don't even see.

John Smith
04-05-2014, 08:07 PM
I was taking about school situations.

School is where many blacks and whites develop their impressions of each other. I would suggest that the early behaviors of both groups led to the situations you describe.

I don't know how to solve the problem, but I do know that claiming racism will not solve the problem.

In my book, "Memoirs of a Sleepless Mind; Why are there left-handed water fountains?" I offered one place to start:

Our constitution gives the accused the right to face his accuser. There is nothing in the constitution that says the jury must see the defendant. It might be interesting to hold trials where the jury has no idea as to gender, race, etc. of the defendant, and witnesses refer to him only as the defendant. Same for everyone else involved.

As to the school room, I think a lot is determined by the teacher. I'm old enough to remember when Jackie Robinson came to the Dodgers. I remember people arguing as to whether a black man could play quarterback. Hell, in WWII the general consensus was they couldn't fly planes.

We've still a very long way to go.

John Smith
04-05-2014, 08:11 PM
Anyone remember the show "Different Strokes?" It was about a wealthy white guy who adopted two black boys. It had a really marvelous episode about a test for school the two boys did very poorly on. The wealthy dad looked at the test and realized it was designed for white kids.

This being a tv show, he had a test made up designed more for the black kids and got the school superintendent to take it and fail. Then all came out well. That was the tv show, but it did make a very valid point. A great deal of some of the "universal" tests and the scores people get are directly dependent upon their backgrounds.

If the test favors the white kids and the background they had, they score better, and the black kids don't do so well, which tells the white community the black kids are dumb.

Kind of self-fulfilling.

oznabrag
04-05-2014, 08:23 PM
I was taking about school situations.

School is where many blacks and whites develop their impressions of each other. I would suggest that the early behaviors of both groups led to the situations you describe.

I don't know how to solve the problem, but I do know that claiming racism will not solve the problem.


'Claiming' racism?

Do you go to your mechanic and accuse him of 'claiming' bad valves?

If you accidentally brush against someone in passing, and he punches you in the face, are you ging to let it go when he says you are 'claiming' anger management issues?


No one here is 'claiming' racism. What we are doing is identifying racism.

The FACT of the matter is that practically every black person in the US will be discriminated against on the basis of the way they were born.

That is wrong.

The FACT of the matter is that a large percentage of them will experience discrimination to a degree that alters the course of their lives.

That is tragic.

The FACT that there an enormous number of white people in this country who dismiss these FACTS as irrelevant is CRIMINAL, if you ask me.

Paul Pless
04-05-2014, 08:26 PM
Add to the above the creation of prisons run by for-profit corporations. In order for them to make their profit, they require a constant stream of prisoners with lengthy sentences.

If an angry black teen yells at a cop, he goes to jail.
If an angry white teen yells at a cop, his parents get called.


depends on the city/state... more likely in big cities like Chicago or Detroit... not an absolute but common just the same

Phillip, what makes you think this?

Waddie
04-05-2014, 08:35 PM
I can also attest that my brother and my aunt (both T party members) hated Obama because he is black. You think they were alone?

John, you've just GOT to start hanging out with a better class of people..... :)

regards,
Waddie