First questions from my "studies"

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  • evergreenblue
    Member
    • Feb 2014
    • 74

    First questions from my "studies"

    Hello everyone! I've been reading a fair amount now about the lofting and building process, and I've come up with a couple questions that I'd like to pose here.

    The first question is regarding the lofting and space requirements. The reason I'd like to build a boat in the length range I mentioned in my first post is due to the space in my garage, where I'll be building. It seems that from reading, I'll need more space for lofting than the length of the boat. Like I had mentioned previously, I don't mind a bit cramped workspace, because I was a Submariner, plus I'll open the garage door when I'm building and need a bit more elbow room. The issue is, I can't just do this with lofting, as I am understanding I need that bit of spare space for fairing the lines. Now my question: I read in one of the books about lofting half of the boat at a time, providing I leave an extra couple sections plus four feet in order to carry the lines past the mid section. Assuming I am going with the Hvalsoe 16, I'm guessing that would make my lofting space around 16 to 18 feet, which would fit in the space I need it to. How practical is this, and has anyone actually done so? Will I potentially ruin the lofting by doing this? I do plan to go ahead and enroll in Mr. Hvalsoe's lofting course before I begin my process, but, I'm trying to plan as much as I can now and prepare my space to build the boat.

    My next question, regarding preparing my garage. My goal is to ultimately turn half of my garage into a shop, which I'm slowly working on, and will be doing so for a long time. what suggestions would you all have for establishing a good work space for building this boat? I understand I'll need to have a proper bench, as opposed to my more-or-less current work table of a bench, but other than a decent work surface, I'd love to hear your suggestions. Please keep in mind, that I'm limited on space, and would like to make it an efficient work area for the boat and future projects, and I am very much an amateur.

    My last (at least in this post) question is regarding the process and setup. I'm really trying to understand the comparison of building upside down vs right side up, and bending frames inside or outside of ribbands. It seems as though I can really screw this whole thing up by not getting the ribbands just right (although it seems I can really screw up at any point). I'm sure that the designer of each boat has an influence on how to build the boat, but from what I'm reading, it seems to be a preference of the builder. Considering I have no experience, how do I decide?

    Sorry again for my lengthy posts, I'm probably always gonna be a bit wordy, but I appreciate any feedback you guys can give me! Thank you!
  • Ian McColgin
    Senior Member
    • Apr 1999
    • 51639

    #2
    Re: First questions from my "studies"

    The reason for the extra space while lofting is so that you have battens enough longer than the line that they will take a clean curve. You'll likely be making the lofting floor of plywood laid down. If once they are tacked together they can be slid in and out of the garage on a flat plane (may require some serious work on the apron and drive) enough to let the battens overhand the ends while you loft and slid back in when not working on it. Spring is coming. Assuming a two car garage this can work out and you can have the lofted lines down while you set up the workshop for the frames.

    Workshop - everyone has their personal druthers. But you cannot go wrong with a bench all along the one long side maybe three feet deep and a couple feet above to the ceiling some cabinets, often found in the town dump ready to quick clean and nail up, and more shelving under. Make the bench about as high as your elbow for easy working and planing.

    And ask Jim Ledger.

    G'luck

    Comment

    • Canoeyawl
      .
      • Jun 2003
      • 37698

      #3
      Re: First questions from my "studies"

      I have done several loftings using the "guppie method"

      Loft the sections full size and loft the long lines 1/4 length, but full height and breadth...
      The bevels for the frames will not be correct, but the "points" or intersections will and on a boat that small you cut the bevels after you erect and fair the frames.

      Comment

      • James McMullen
        老板
        • Apr 2007
        • 12054

        #4
        Re: First questions from my "studies"

        Originally posted by evergreenblue
        . . .My goal is to ultimately turn half of my garage into a shop. . .
        Dude! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, amigo? Half?!? Why the hell would you even consider wasting half of your shop space on automobile storage? No, no, you're going about this all wrong. The entire premise is flawed. Better start over from first principles, David, cause you're already going off the rails, my friend.

        Comment

        • andrewpatrol
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2010
          • 2510

          #5
          Re: First questions from my "studies"

          Agreed on the long work bench, mine is about 18" wide but a little more would be great, not too wide to make reaching the other side feasible. At the end of mine I made a platform with 4x2s to layout ply sheets to cut em up. Your lofting can be hung along opposite wall and body plan at adjoining wall, back. I store my ply ( this is assuming you're going with ply? ) standing on edge clamped to wall to save space. If you're precious about your car build a carport, garages are for boats!
          oh and make your work bench so you can clamp things to it, at least three inches access under front edge and if you can at rear edge too.

          Comment

          • evergreenblue
            Member
            • Feb 2014
            • 74

            #6
            Re: First questions from my "studies"

            Well, I'm quite amused by the response so far regarding my shop space! Let me clear something up real quick. First of all, no vehicles are stored in the garage, I've taken over the whole space. I should have been more clear. What I meant was I will only be lining half of the garage with shop related features if you will, i.e. a workbench and tool storage, although I'll likely store lumber on the opposite wall. This is getting off topic, but let me give you a quick glimpse of why I mean to do this. I am building a bar along the opposite wall, flanked by my two vintage slot machines, with a serving bar in that corner for my home brew, and I have a pool table in the middle of the space, which will soon be on casters to slide under the bar to make way for whatever I'm working on, e.g. building a boat! I have many hobbies and interests, which will all share space in my "shop" to include beer, good fun, and of course boats! While building this boat, the majority of the garage will be open for the build, so when I say size restriction, I really mean length, as there is plenty of room on either side! I hope that clears it up a bit!

            Mr. McColgin, I like the idea of having the table mobile, as I was picturing doing the same thing with the strongback when the time came to that. I suppose I was under the impression that the lofting table would have to be longer than the space I have, even if I made it mobile and put it to bed each day. When you were describing your idea though, if I understand you correctly, were you implying that the base be stationary, and the lofting surface moveable on slides? It seems that would be a pretty good idea as well, I'm picturing a torsion box assembly on very long drawer slides? And regarding the workbench, my current "workbench" is essentially a flatish work surface about 3.5 x 8 feet, and while its not the easiest to reach all the way across, I still have a fairly long reach and do like the wide surface as opposed to the standard 2 feet, so I like the suggestion of a 3 foot wide surface, but what would you think the minimum practical length would be for this project. I am planning on building a new workbench, but was originally keeping it in the 8 foot range, to make room for my bandsaw and a possible future machine. Do you think it needs to be longer, or would that length work if I had some shop bents to support longer pieces that overhang the bench?

            Canoeyawl, your method seems different than what I interpreted in the book. I was picturing the author describing it as lofting half the length at full scale, but having the extra stations and space to carry the battens along the intended curve, but only plotting to the halfway section mark. I'm a bit confused by your description, though I'm sure it works, I've just never lofted, so I can't picture everything just yet. If I can do Mr. McColgin's method of moving the table though, I may not need to reduce my table size. I suppose I just need to know that it can store in the length of the garage.

            andrewpatrol, I like the idea of having a platform incorporated into your bench. I currently have a platform of 1x2's that fit over a folding table to lay down plywood for cutting.

            Comment

            • evergreenblue
              Member
              • Feb 2014
              • 74

              #7
              Re: First questions from my "studies"

              One more thing to add to the image of my shop space. When I built my fence last summer, I laid plywood over the pool table and it acted as an assembly table and finishing table, so it's not completely wasted space for shop purposes!

              Comment

              • stromborg
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2010
                • 6319

                #8
                Re: First questions from my "studies"

                From your original post, you have about 20' of space, plenty for lofting your Hvalsoe 16. My 19'-9" boat was lofted in a 23' long space and it worked out just fine.



                This is the workbench I ran along one wall. 24" deep gave me enough room to hang those plastic hardware bins over it and still have useable work space. The low table is 12' long and has been invaluable, I built two small boats on it and most of my spars too.



                Looking into the space right after laying down the OSB floor. THe kayak hanging on the wall is 20' long.
                Last edited by stromborg; 03-17-2014, 11:07 PM.
                Steve

                If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
                H.A. Calahan

                Comment

                • Sayla
                  Shiver me timbers
                  • Jul 2009
                  • 1030

                  #9
                  Re: First questions from my "studies"

                  The lofting can be done anywhere, so...if the missus gives up the lounge-room etc. for a week or two, you could fold up a few sheets of pre-primed hardboard or something, and take them back to the garage.

                  Comment

                  • Canoeyawl
                    .
                    • Jun 2003
                    • 37698

                    #10
                    Re: First questions from my "studies"

                    The biggest problem I had with full length lofting is finding a floor flat enough, and long enough, with no twist. Once you build that surface it's all good, but trusting your lofting surface to the carpenter that built the floor can be sketchy. So start with a string line and get your eye right next to the floor and decide right then how much error you can tolerate in the boat.

                    By using the shortened method I described, you can fit the entire lofting on a (nice and thick) 4x8 sheet of plywood and keep it for reference.
                    For me, I find it more reliable lofting the long lines to 1/4 length, especially with a fine lined hull form as this method springs the batten more and helps to create a fair curve to "Prove" the sections. (Long fine lines can be fussy). Perhaps this method is a bit advanced and you should make a "practice lofting"... or two starting with a simple hull form and a table of offsets.
                    Lofting can be an interesting exercise, I have lofted a few hulls at 1-1/2" per foot just to see what they look like. You can do this at your desk, with tiny battens and it is no different than the full sized drawing except your knees will thank you later. Chapelles books have a few lovely small boats with offsets and if you try to loft one you will find some mistakes there. Which is a good learning experience, and many questions will sort themselves out very quickly.


                    (Keep in mind this is not a 60 foot schooner with 4" thick frames and you do not need to pick up the frame bevels until the boat is set-up on the molds).

                    Comment

                    • mohsart
                      Senile Mumbler
                      • Mar 2014
                      • 1066

                      #11
                      Re: First questions from my "studies"

                      It seems to be a European tradition to build boats right side up, while Americans do it up side down.
                      I can see that some steps may be easier up side down, like for me, right now, working on the garboards; while seeing the boat right side up should make it easier to see that all lines and curves are in harmony, and the last planks and gunwales etc ought to be easier right side up.

                      /Mats
                      sigpic
                      Diagnosed with autism. Sorry, not much I can do about it.

                      Comment

                      • Sailor
                        Senior Member #4610
                        • Feb 2002
                        • 5229

                        #12
                        Re: First questions from my "studies"

                        My bench (in an admittedly much larger space) was simple. I took two 4x8 sheets of 1" MDF. MDF is actually 4'1"x8'1". Cutting them in half lengthwise gave me a workbench 32'4"long and 24.5" wide. I find it a great size. Your shop will likely be different however I would suggest taking one of those sheets and get yourself a 16'2" bench.
                        If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
                        -Henry David Thoreau-

                        Comment

                        • slug
                          Banned
                          • Dec 2012
                          • 8131

                          #13
                          Re: First questions from my "studies"

                          If you have a nice flat sheetrock wall available on one side of your workshop you can loft on a wall. Nail some thin ply over the sheetrock to hold fasteners and nail heads... Not to bad. Ive only wall lofted small boats and boat components. A big boat might be tough.

                          Comment

                          • Mad Scientist
                            Senior Member
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 2150

                            #14
                            Re: First questions from my "studies"

                            If your floor is the usual concrete slab, consider laying a wooden floor over it. Makes it possible to nail down supports for the frames, etc., and is much kinder on the knees than a concrete slab.

                            Tom

                            Comment

                            • Falcon1
                              Senior Quixote
                              • Dec 2012
                              • 1525

                              #15
                              Re: First questions from my "studies"

                              +1 on the wood over concrete floor. I used two sheets of OSB screwed down with tap-cons. OSB, or oriented strand board is super cheap, and allowed me to screw my building frame to it with corner brackets.
                              My garage is 17x17 and I'm building a 14.5 foot boat. So far, no space problems. Instead of a long bench, which wasn't feasible, I made three sawhorses about 28 or 30 inches high, and used them for planking work, usually outside.
                              Might have learned about them on Geoff Kerr's Caledonia Yawl videos on Off Center Harbor. Also in a book called "The Workbench Book."

                              Welcome and good luck!

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