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Paul
12-29-2000, 08:15 AM
I have sent several inquiries aroung to the different sail makers advertised in WB. I have heard back from two of them. One sail maker says that OCEANUS cloth is not a good choice for the Haven 12.5 I am building. The other said that OCEANUS would be fine but it would have to be vertical panels. They also offered dacron to reduce costs. I really want a nice set of sails and want them to look traditional to go with the boat. Whats the thought of experience out there on type of material, etc. I plan on using a gaff rigg with the mast attached with steam bent oak hoops. Thanks.

Paul
12-29-2000, 08:15 AM
I have sent several inquiries aroung to the different sail makers advertised in WB. I have heard back from two of them. One sail maker says that OCEANUS cloth is not a good choice for the Haven 12.5 I am building. The other said that OCEANUS would be fine but it would have to be vertical panels. They also offered dacron to reduce costs. I really want a nice set of sails and want them to look traditional to go with the boat. Whats the thought of experience out there on type of material, etc. I plan on using a gaff rigg with the mast attached with steam bent oak hoops. Thanks.

Paul
12-29-2000, 08:15 AM
I have sent several inquiries aroung to the different sail makers advertised in WB. I have heard back from two of them. One sail maker says that OCEANUS cloth is not a good choice for the Haven 12.5 I am building. The other said that OCEANUS would be fine but it would have to be vertical panels. They also offered dacron to reduce costs. I really want a nice set of sails and want them to look traditional to go with the boat. Whats the thought of experience out there on type of material, etc. I plan on using a gaff rigg with the mast attached with steam bent oak hoops. Thanks.

Ian McColgin
12-29-2000, 09:33 AM
When I built a couple of new sails for Grana a couple of years ago, the tanbark Oceanus was not available in a light enough weight for your use. But the sorta oystery colour was and would look well.

The stuff is pricy and some sailmakers find it hard to work with as it can come out of the machine with a little pucker if you're not careful. It's like a natural fiber in that it's quite streatchy on a bias, but it's true to its synthetic self with not much stretch on the warp or woof.

I think verticle cut would be a more efficient way to cut a gaff sail for sure. A friend had battenless hollow roach verticle cut macaroni sails that look nice. I made my jib and high roach fully battened foresail with the seams normal to the leach, which works nicely and gives lots more play room with luff and foot tension, not that I'm such a sailshaping wizz that I can really do much with that. On the jib, for some idiot reason I put huge tension on the leach tape as I sewed so I ended up with a cupped leach which had to be redone. Somethings pros get right the first time . . .

I had the factory cut a 4" and a 3" tape off the bolt I bought for the sails so I had good fabric match. If your sailmaker does not think to do this, you'll end up with dacron taping, as Hood did in white to my friend's sails, which does not look as well.

Sailcloth tape is the modern synthetic alternative to the old time tabling and roping. No one in their right mind tables the leach any more, though it would look very fine on your sail. The labor cost of hand roping the head, luff & foot would take your breath away but if your sail maker knows how and will instruct you, that could be a nice winter project for you at home.

Of course, you'll need to make a proper sailmakers bench first - trescool seat about 5' long with convient tool holders and hold-down sites so you can sit the the material stretched over your lap. With a wood stove at your back, an adoring puppy, cat or child tangled in your feet, and the smell of baking bread coming from the galley, you'll know you've made it to nirvanna.

I also used tape to use run right along where the reefs go. If the tape is stitched on neutral - no pull no pucker - it does not seem to put a hard spot on the sail when it's set normally even though it'll be running at an angle to the panels. The tape is essential to provide much needed stretch resistance when you reef. Insist on that.

G'luck

Ian McColgin
12-29-2000, 09:33 AM
When I built a couple of new sails for Grana a couple of years ago, the tanbark Oceanus was not available in a light enough weight for your use. But the sorta oystery colour was and would look well.

The stuff is pricy and some sailmakers find it hard to work with as it can come out of the machine with a little pucker if you're not careful. It's like a natural fiber in that it's quite streatchy on a bias, but it's true to its synthetic self with not much stretch on the warp or woof.

I think verticle cut would be a more efficient way to cut a gaff sail for sure. A friend had battenless hollow roach verticle cut macaroni sails that look nice. I made my jib and high roach fully battened foresail with the seams normal to the leach, which works nicely and gives lots more play room with luff and foot tension, not that I'm such a sailshaping wizz that I can really do much with that. On the jib, for some idiot reason I put huge tension on the leach tape as I sewed so I ended up with a cupped leach which had to be redone. Somethings pros get right the first time . . .

I had the factory cut a 4" and a 3" tape off the bolt I bought for the sails so I had good fabric match. If your sailmaker does not think to do this, you'll end up with dacron taping, as Hood did in white to my friend's sails, which does not look as well.

Sailcloth tape is the modern synthetic alternative to the old time tabling and roping. No one in their right mind tables the leach any more, though it would look very fine on your sail. The labor cost of hand roping the head, luff & foot would take your breath away but if your sail maker knows how and will instruct you, that could be a nice winter project for you at home.

Of course, you'll need to make a proper sailmakers bench first - trescool seat about 5' long with convient tool holders and hold-down sites so you can sit the the material stretched over your lap. With a wood stove at your back, an adoring puppy, cat or child tangled in your feet, and the smell of baking bread coming from the galley, you'll know you've made it to nirvanna.

I also used tape to use run right along where the reefs go. If the tape is stitched on neutral - no pull no pucker - it does not seem to put a hard spot on the sail when it's set normally even though it'll be running at an angle to the panels. The tape is essential to provide much needed stretch resistance when you reef. Insist on that.

G'luck

Ian McColgin
12-29-2000, 09:33 AM
When I built a couple of new sails for Grana a couple of years ago, the tanbark Oceanus was not available in a light enough weight for your use. But the sorta oystery colour was and would look well.

The stuff is pricy and some sailmakers find it hard to work with as it can come out of the machine with a little pucker if you're not careful. It's like a natural fiber in that it's quite streatchy on a bias, but it's true to its synthetic self with not much stretch on the warp or woof.

I think verticle cut would be a more efficient way to cut a gaff sail for sure. A friend had battenless hollow roach verticle cut macaroni sails that look nice. I made my jib and high roach fully battened foresail with the seams normal to the leach, which works nicely and gives lots more play room with luff and foot tension, not that I'm such a sailshaping wizz that I can really do much with that. On the jib, for some idiot reason I put huge tension on the leach tape as I sewed so I ended up with a cupped leach which had to be redone. Somethings pros get right the first time . . .

I had the factory cut a 4" and a 3" tape off the bolt I bought for the sails so I had good fabric match. If your sailmaker does not think to do this, you'll end up with dacron taping, as Hood did in white to my friend's sails, which does not look as well.

Sailcloth tape is the modern synthetic alternative to the old time tabling and roping. No one in their right mind tables the leach any more, though it would look very fine on your sail. The labor cost of hand roping the head, luff & foot would take your breath away but if your sail maker knows how and will instruct you, that could be a nice winter project for you at home.

Of course, you'll need to make a proper sailmakers bench first - trescool seat about 5' long with convient tool holders and hold-down sites so you can sit the the material stretched over your lap. With a wood stove at your back, an adoring puppy, cat or child tangled in your feet, and the smell of baking bread coming from the galley, you'll know you've made it to nirvanna.

I also used tape to use run right along where the reefs go. If the tape is stitched on neutral - no pull no pucker - it does not seem to put a hard spot on the sail when it's set normally even though it'll be running at an angle to the panels. The tape is essential to provide much needed stretch resistance when you reef. Insist on that.

G'luck

Paul
12-29-2000, 01:24 PM
Thanks Ian, is there a lot of difference between Oceanus cloth and dacron? I saw a sample of something that looked almost like mylar. I would think that would be noisey and show creases. I don't mind paying additional for some hand sewn details. I would think that would really set the sails off nicely.

Paul
12-29-2000, 01:24 PM
Thanks Ian, is there a lot of difference between Oceanus cloth and dacron? I saw a sample of something that looked almost like mylar. I would think that would be noisey and show creases. I don't mind paying additional for some hand sewn details. I would think that would really set the sails off nicely.

Paul
12-29-2000, 01:24 PM
Thanks Ian, is there a lot of difference between Oceanus cloth and dacron? I saw a sample of something that looked almost like mylar. I would think that would be noisey and show creases. I don't mind paying additional for some hand sewn details. I would think that would really set the sails off nicely.

Ian McColgin
12-29-2000, 01:49 PM
Big difference. You sure don't want mylar kevlar or anything like it.

Dacron usually has a pretty hard, smooth finish and is wonderfully stabile in all directions. Sometimes you can get what I call soft dacron, that doesn't have that final heat finish and is quieter and more pleasant to furl. While not as hard as heat finished dacron, it's still more stabile on the bias than Oceanus.

Oceanus is not exactly dacron but it's chemically pretty close. It's woven differently and is not surface heated, both factors contributing to the bias stretchiness.

One thing you may run into is availability of the cloth to the sailmaker - no one wants to buy a roll for a small job if they are unlikely to use up the rest and while partial rolls can be gotten from the manufactorer, the cost per yard and general hassel goes up. Also, craftsmen (unlike us hackers) don't like to work outside their skill level and general repetior and Oceanus takes a more oldtimeybrownricenaturalfiber sensibility.

But it's nice to handle.

Oh yeah - the tanbark color will rub into any running rigging, given half a chance, for the first year or so.

Enjoy.

Ian McColgin
12-29-2000, 01:49 PM
Big difference. You sure don't want mylar kevlar or anything like it.

Dacron usually has a pretty hard, smooth finish and is wonderfully stabile in all directions. Sometimes you can get what I call soft dacron, that doesn't have that final heat finish and is quieter and more pleasant to furl. While not as hard as heat finished dacron, it's still more stabile on the bias than Oceanus.

Oceanus is not exactly dacron but it's chemically pretty close. It's woven differently and is not surface heated, both factors contributing to the bias stretchiness.

One thing you may run into is availability of the cloth to the sailmaker - no one wants to buy a roll for a small job if they are unlikely to use up the rest and while partial rolls can be gotten from the manufactorer, the cost per yard and general hassel goes up. Also, craftsmen (unlike us hackers) don't like to work outside their skill level and general repetior and Oceanus takes a more oldtimeybrownricenaturalfiber sensibility.

But it's nice to handle.

Oh yeah - the tanbark color will rub into any running rigging, given half a chance, for the first year or so.

Enjoy.

Ian McColgin
12-29-2000, 01:49 PM
Big difference. You sure don't want mylar kevlar or anything like it.

Dacron usually has a pretty hard, smooth finish and is wonderfully stabile in all directions. Sometimes you can get what I call soft dacron, that doesn't have that final heat finish and is quieter and more pleasant to furl. While not as hard as heat finished dacron, it's still more stabile on the bias than Oceanus.

Oceanus is not exactly dacron but it's chemically pretty close. It's woven differently and is not surface heated, both factors contributing to the bias stretchiness.

One thing you may run into is availability of the cloth to the sailmaker - no one wants to buy a roll for a small job if they are unlikely to use up the rest and while partial rolls can be gotten from the manufactorer, the cost per yard and general hassel goes up. Also, craftsmen (unlike us hackers) don't like to work outside their skill level and general repetior and Oceanus takes a more oldtimeybrownricenaturalfiber sensibility.

But it's nice to handle.

Oh yeah - the tanbark color will rub into any running rigging, given half a chance, for the first year or so.

Enjoy.

Todd Bradshaw
12-29-2000, 01:52 PM
Paul,

While Oceanus is lovely fabric, even the lightest weight available (7 oz. Ship's Cloth) is pretty heavy for such a small boat, especially a jib that's only 12' on the luff and about 4' on the foot. Most sailmakers would build sails that size from fabric in the 4-5 oz. range. This may be why some of the lofts aren't keen on building Haven sails from Oceanus.

Another possible reason is that it is difficult to cut accurately on some computer-driven sail plotters. Since the fabric is so thick and soft, it has a tendency to bunch-up in front of the cutter. If the loft uses a plotter, they may not like working with Oceanus.

As far as I have been able to find out, North Cloth has no current intentions of building any lighter weights of Oceanus. If you do go with it, it would be a really good idea to have the sails built by somebody who is used to working with it. Anybody can buy the stuff, but you want somebody who is really tuned-in to it's shaping and stretch characteristics, which are somewhat different from Dacron.

I don't think that there is much question that the boat would sail better, especially in light air, with lighter, Dacron sails. If you came to me (actually, you can't because these days all I build are sails for antique sailing canoes - but if you did) I would try to steer you toward Dacron.

By far, my favorite polyester (Dacron) fabrics in the 4oz. to 6 oz. range for traditional sails are made in England by the Richard Hayward Company and distributed to sailmakers in the U.S. by Performance Textiles in Annapolis. They make 4.3 oz., 5.7 oz. and 6.4 oz. weights in both Egyptian Cream and Tanbark colors. They have U.V inhibitors built in and are softer and less prone to creasing than the traditional-colored fabrics developed by Challenge Sailcloth and Bainbridge International, the two major players in the U.S. market.

Hayward fabric is also slightly fuzzier on the surface and has a much richer, less plastic-looking appearance. It costs a few bucks more, per yard, than the domestic fabrics, but is well worth the difference. The 4.3 oz. would be fine for the jib and probably the main as well with proper reinforcement, but I might lean toward the 5.7 oz. for a bit more durability.

From a cosmetic standpoint, it's a big enough difference that it's worth insisting that your sailmaker use the Hayward fabric. If he hasn't used it yet, and is serious about building traditional sails, you are doing him a favor by aquainting him with it.

As Ian said, be sure the luff tapes and trim are cut from the same fabric. Nothing looks more fake than a "traditional" sail from Egyptian or even worse, Tanbark fabric with plain, white Dacron trim. Some sailmakers think that all they need to do to make a traditional sail is to use full-width, colored fabric for the panels mixed-in with their normal trim, radial corner patches and stamped-in steel rings.

While one often needs to place reasonable limits upon how much of a "purist" it makes sense to be, there are sails that look traditional and sails that look like a bad imitation of traditional. Look through some articals that show old boats with beautiful sails and get some ideas of what you want yours to look like and what elements contribute to that look.

best of luck,

T.E.B.

Todd Bradshaw
12-29-2000, 01:52 PM
Paul,

While Oceanus is lovely fabric, even the lightest weight available (7 oz. Ship's Cloth) is pretty heavy for such a small boat, especially a jib that's only 12' on the luff and about 4' on the foot. Most sailmakers would build sails that size from fabric in the 4-5 oz. range. This may be why some of the lofts aren't keen on building Haven sails from Oceanus.

Another possible reason is that it is difficult to cut accurately on some computer-driven sail plotters. Since the fabric is so thick and soft, it has a tendency to bunch-up in front of the cutter. If the loft uses a plotter, they may not like working with Oceanus.

As far as I have been able to find out, North Cloth has no current intentions of building any lighter weights of Oceanus. If you do go with it, it would be a really good idea to have the sails built by somebody who is used to working with it. Anybody can buy the stuff, but you want somebody who is really tuned-in to it's shaping and stretch characteristics, which are somewhat different from Dacron.

I don't think that there is much question that the boat would sail better, especially in light air, with lighter, Dacron sails. If you came to me (actually, you can't because these days all I build are sails for antique sailing canoes - but if you did) I would try to steer you toward Dacron.

By far, my favorite polyester (Dacron) fabrics in the 4oz. to 6 oz. range for traditional sails are made in England by the Richard Hayward Company and distributed to sailmakers in the U.S. by Performance Textiles in Annapolis. They make 4.3 oz., 5.7 oz. and 6.4 oz. weights in both Egyptian Cream and Tanbark colors. They have U.V inhibitors built in and are softer and less prone to creasing than the traditional-colored fabrics developed by Challenge Sailcloth and Bainbridge International, the two major players in the U.S. market.

Hayward fabric is also slightly fuzzier on the surface and has a much richer, less plastic-looking appearance. It costs a few bucks more, per yard, than the domestic fabrics, but is well worth the difference. The 4.3 oz. would be fine for the jib and probably the main as well with proper reinforcement, but I might lean toward the 5.7 oz. for a bit more durability.

From a cosmetic standpoint, it's a big enough difference that it's worth insisting that your sailmaker use the Hayward fabric. If he hasn't used it yet, and is serious about building traditional sails, you are doing him a favor by aquainting him with it.

As Ian said, be sure the luff tapes and trim are cut from the same fabric. Nothing looks more fake than a "traditional" sail from Egyptian or even worse, Tanbark fabric with plain, white Dacron trim. Some sailmakers think that all they need to do to make a traditional sail is to use full-width, colored fabric for the panels mixed-in with their normal trim, radial corner patches and stamped-in steel rings.

While one often needs to place reasonable limits upon how much of a "purist" it makes sense to be, there are sails that look traditional and sails that look like a bad imitation of traditional. Look through some articals that show old boats with beautiful sails and get some ideas of what you want yours to look like and what elements contribute to that look.

best of luck,

T.E.B.

Todd Bradshaw
12-29-2000, 01:52 PM
Paul,

While Oceanus is lovely fabric, even the lightest weight available (7 oz. Ship's Cloth) is pretty heavy for such a small boat, especially a jib that's only 12' on the luff and about 4' on the foot. Most sailmakers would build sails that size from fabric in the 4-5 oz. range. This may be why some of the lofts aren't keen on building Haven sails from Oceanus.

Another possible reason is that it is difficult to cut accurately on some computer-driven sail plotters. Since the fabric is so thick and soft, it has a tendency to bunch-up in front of the cutter. If the loft uses a plotter, they may not like working with Oceanus.

As far as I have been able to find out, North Cloth has no current intentions of building any lighter weights of Oceanus. If you do go with it, it would be a really good idea to have the sails built by somebody who is used to working with it. Anybody can buy the stuff, but you want somebody who is really tuned-in to it's shaping and stretch characteristics, which are somewhat different from Dacron.

I don't think that there is much question that the boat would sail better, especially in light air, with lighter, Dacron sails. If you came to me (actually, you can't because these days all I build are sails for antique sailing canoes - but if you did) I would try to steer you toward Dacron.

By far, my favorite polyester (Dacron) fabrics in the 4oz. to 6 oz. range for traditional sails are made in England by the Richard Hayward Company and distributed to sailmakers in the U.S. by Performance Textiles in Annapolis. They make 4.3 oz., 5.7 oz. and 6.4 oz. weights in both Egyptian Cream and Tanbark colors. They have U.V inhibitors built in and are softer and less prone to creasing than the traditional-colored fabrics developed by Challenge Sailcloth and Bainbridge International, the two major players in the U.S. market.

Hayward fabric is also slightly fuzzier on the surface and has a much richer, less plastic-looking appearance. It costs a few bucks more, per yard, than the domestic fabrics, but is well worth the difference. The 4.3 oz. would be fine for the jib and probably the main as well with proper reinforcement, but I might lean toward the 5.7 oz. for a bit more durability.

From a cosmetic standpoint, it's a big enough difference that it's worth insisting that your sailmaker use the Hayward fabric. If he hasn't used it yet, and is serious about building traditional sails, you are doing him a favor by aquainting him with it.

As Ian said, be sure the luff tapes and trim are cut from the same fabric. Nothing looks more fake than a "traditional" sail from Egyptian or even worse, Tanbark fabric with plain, white Dacron trim. Some sailmakers think that all they need to do to make a traditional sail is to use full-width, colored fabric for the panels mixed-in with their normal trim, radial corner patches and stamped-in steel rings.

While one often needs to place reasonable limits upon how much of a "purist" it makes sense to be, there are sails that look traditional and sails that look like a bad imitation of traditional. Look through some articals that show old boats with beautiful sails and get some ideas of what you want yours to look like and what elements contribute to that look.

best of luck,

T.E.B.

Art Read
12-29-2000, 02:02 PM
Paul... I haven't signed the contract yet, but I did get an estimate from Sound Sails in Port Townsend, WA. for a suit of "traditionaly" made, Oceanous sails for the Dark Harbor. They build a lot of sails out of this stuff for some of the traditional, local boats and do first rate work from what I can see. I'm sure she's already built for some of the Havens around here. The cost was about double what I'd been "hoping" to pay, but I guess that's no big surprise... Their number is 360-385-3881

Art Read
12-29-2000, 02:02 PM
Paul... I haven't signed the contract yet, but I did get an estimate from Sound Sails in Port Townsend, WA. for a suit of "traditionaly" made, Oceanous sails for the Dark Harbor. They build a lot of sails out of this stuff for some of the traditional, local boats and do first rate work from what I can see. I'm sure she's already built for some of the Havens around here. The cost was about double what I'd been "hoping" to pay, but I guess that's no big surprise... Their number is 360-385-3881

Art Read
12-29-2000, 02:02 PM
Paul... I haven't signed the contract yet, but I did get an estimate from Sound Sails in Port Townsend, WA. for a suit of "traditionaly" made, Oceanous sails for the Dark Harbor. They build a lot of sails out of this stuff for some of the traditional, local boats and do first rate work from what I can see. I'm sure she's already built for some of the Havens around here. The cost was about double what I'd been "hoping" to pay, but I guess that's no big surprise... Their number is 360-385-3881

Paul
12-29-2000, 03:26 PM
I love this forum. The idea that you can pose a quesion and start getting immediate feedback and advise is amazing. I do believe the Oceanus may be a little to heavy. This on top of me deciding to use Doug Fir for the mast, could be pushing things a bit. I really like the dacron that Todd talks about. I like the idea of having hand sewn grommets with leathers, etc...The idea of vertical seams, just doesn't appeal to me for some reason. Wouldn't the horizontal seams look better with battens?

Paul
12-29-2000, 03:26 PM
I love this forum. The idea that you can pose a quesion and start getting immediate feedback and advise is amazing. I do believe the Oceanus may be a little to heavy. This on top of me deciding to use Doug Fir for the mast, could be pushing things a bit. I really like the dacron that Todd talks about. I like the idea of having hand sewn grommets with leathers, etc...The idea of vertical seams, just doesn't appeal to me for some reason. Wouldn't the horizontal seams look better with battens?

Paul
12-29-2000, 03:26 PM
I love this forum. The idea that you can pose a quesion and start getting immediate feedback and advise is amazing. I do believe the Oceanus may be a little to heavy. This on top of me deciding to use Doug Fir for the mast, could be pushing things a bit. I really like the dacron that Todd talks about. I like the idea of having hand sewn grommets with leathers, etc...The idea of vertical seams, just doesn't appeal to me for some reason. Wouldn't the horizontal seams look better with battens?

Todd Bradshaw
12-29-2000, 04:50 PM
The leech on a vertical-cut is almost always either straight or (and usually better) slightly hollowed to prevent flapping. They seldom have any battens. Cutting the leech with a bit of roach and battens to support it would require a cross-cut. A sail without roach or battens could be cut either way, but would still generally have a slight hollow, compared to a straight-line drawn between the peak and clew.

From a more or less historical perspective, a boat like yours would fall more into the yacht category than the workboat category. It's perhaps too broad a generalization to make and there are plenty of exceptions, but yacht sails are more likely to be cross-cut and workboat sails vertical. If your sailmaker does mitres, you could even see about having the jib mitre-cut. It adds a wonderful look to it, but it's harder to build.

Todd Bradshaw
12-29-2000, 04:50 PM
The leech on a vertical-cut is almost always either straight or (and usually better) slightly hollowed to prevent flapping. They seldom have any battens. Cutting the leech with a bit of roach and battens to support it would require a cross-cut. A sail without roach or battens could be cut either way, but would still generally have a slight hollow, compared to a straight-line drawn between the peak and clew.

From a more or less historical perspective, a boat like yours would fall more into the yacht category than the workboat category. It's perhaps too broad a generalization to make and there are plenty of exceptions, but yacht sails are more likely to be cross-cut and workboat sails vertical. If your sailmaker does mitres, you could even see about having the jib mitre-cut. It adds a wonderful look to it, but it's harder to build.

Todd Bradshaw
12-29-2000, 04:50 PM
The leech on a vertical-cut is almost always either straight or (and usually better) slightly hollowed to prevent flapping. They seldom have any battens. Cutting the leech with a bit of roach and battens to support it would require a cross-cut. A sail without roach or battens could be cut either way, but would still generally have a slight hollow, compared to a straight-line drawn between the peak and clew.

From a more or less historical perspective, a boat like yours would fall more into the yacht category than the workboat category. It's perhaps too broad a generalization to make and there are plenty of exceptions, but yacht sails are more likely to be cross-cut and workboat sails vertical. If your sailmaker does mitres, you could even see about having the jib mitre-cut. It adds a wonderful look to it, but it's harder to build.

Paul
01-02-2001, 07:06 PM
I sent several inquiries to Sailmakers that advertise in WB about a month ago. So far, I have heard from only two. I guess they are either real busy or don't need any new business! Kind of disappointing really.

Paul
01-02-2001, 07:06 PM
I sent several inquiries to Sailmakers that advertise in WB about a month ago. So far, I have heard from only two. I guess they are either real busy or don't need any new business! Kind of disappointing really.

Paul
01-02-2001, 07:06 PM
I sent several inquiries to Sailmakers that advertise in WB about a month ago. So far, I have heard from only two. I guess they are either real busy or don't need any new business! Kind of disappointing really.

NormMessinger
01-02-2001, 08:40 PM
Ian wright put me on to his sailmaker in England last spring when I was in the process of searching for one based on the ads in Woodenboat. I got quotes ranging from $750 to $1,500 and delivery times from soon to months away. The only way I had to judge their quotes was from what each maker told me. Since I've know Ian from several years and trust his judgement and since his sailmaker's quote was right in the middle, including shipping, and he is an experience gaff sail maker, I went with him. The sail is beautiful and delivery was within days of when promised. You can reach him by email, jameslawrence@sailloft.fsnet.co.uk .

Also, when I mentioned to my sailor friend in Wales that I had ordered the mainsail from Lawrence he reaction was, oh wow you went to the best.

--Norm

NormMessinger
01-02-2001, 08:40 PM
Ian wright put me on to his sailmaker in England last spring when I was in the process of searching for one based on the ads in Woodenboat. I got quotes ranging from $750 to $1,500 and delivery times from soon to months away. The only way I had to judge their quotes was from what each maker told me. Since I've know Ian from several years and trust his judgement and since his sailmaker's quote was right in the middle, including shipping, and he is an experience gaff sail maker, I went with him. The sail is beautiful and delivery was within days of when promised. You can reach him by email, jameslawrence@sailloft.fsnet.co.uk .

Also, when I mentioned to my sailor friend in Wales that I had ordered the mainsail from Lawrence he reaction was, oh wow you went to the best.

--Norm

NormMessinger
01-02-2001, 08:40 PM
Ian wright put me on to his sailmaker in England last spring when I was in the process of searching for one based on the ads in Woodenboat. I got quotes ranging from $750 to $1,500 and delivery times from soon to months away. The only way I had to judge their quotes was from what each maker told me. Since I've know Ian from several years and trust his judgement and since his sailmaker's quote was right in the middle, including shipping, and he is an experience gaff sail maker, I went with him. The sail is beautiful and delivery was within days of when promised. You can reach him by email, jameslawrence@sailloft.fsnet.co.uk .

Also, when I mentioned to my sailor friend in Wales that I had ordered the mainsail from Lawrence he reaction was, oh wow you went to the best.

--Norm

Paul
01-03-2001, 09:06 AM
Thanks Norm! I will give him a shout.
By the way while we are talking sails......what ways can one attach a mainsail to the mast hoops and what is the best way? We are talking a gaff Haven 12.5 here. And what exactly is a batten and what does it do.

Paul
01-03-2001, 09:06 AM
Thanks Norm! I will give him a shout.
By the way while we are talking sails......what ways can one attach a mainsail to the mast hoops and what is the best way? We are talking a gaff Haven 12.5 here. And what exactly is a batten and what does it do.

Paul
01-03-2001, 09:06 AM
Thanks Norm! I will give him a shout.
By the way while we are talking sails......what ways can one attach a mainsail to the mast hoops and what is the best way? We are talking a gaff Haven 12.5 here. And what exactly is a batten and what does it do.

NormMessinger
01-03-2001, 10:14 AM
A batten is a slat inserted in a pocket on the sail more or less perpendicular to the leech the stiffen the sail. Some are short while others cross the sail leech to luff. Surely someone here will give you a better description.

If someone doesn't come up with a description for bending sail to hoop, I'll see if I can find the picture I saw in one of the books I keep under the bed with the hope that I'll learn and remember something.

--Norm

NormMessinger
01-03-2001, 10:14 AM
A batten is a slat inserted in a pocket on the sail more or less perpendicular to the leech the stiffen the sail. Some are short while others cross the sail leech to luff. Surely someone here will give you a better description.

If someone doesn't come up with a description for bending sail to hoop, I'll see if I can find the picture I saw in one of the books I keep under the bed with the hope that I'll learn and remember something.

--Norm

NormMessinger
01-03-2001, 10:14 AM
A batten is a slat inserted in a pocket on the sail more or less perpendicular to the leech the stiffen the sail. Some are short while others cross the sail leech to luff. Surely someone here will give you a better description.

If someone doesn't come up with a description for bending sail to hoop, I'll see if I can find the picture I saw in one of the books I keep under the bed with the hope that I'll learn and remember something.

--Norm

Frank Hagan
01-04-2001, 02:42 PM
Here's a pic of one way to tie a mast hoop to the sail:

http://users2.ev1.net/~fshagan/hooptie.jpg

And another showing a different way:

http://users2.ev1.net/~fshagan/jl_hoop.jpg

Frank Hagan
01-04-2001, 02:42 PM
Here's a pic of one way to tie a mast hoop to the sail:

http://users2.ev1.net/~fshagan/hooptie.jpg

And another showing a different way:

http://users2.ev1.net/~fshagan/jl_hoop.jpg

Frank Hagan
01-04-2001, 02:42 PM
Here's a pic of one way to tie a mast hoop to the sail:

http://users2.ev1.net/~fshagan/hooptie.jpg

And another showing a different way:

http://users2.ev1.net/~fshagan/jl_hoop.jpg

Todd Bradshaw
01-04-2001, 04:37 PM
If you want to be able to remove the sail from the mast without undoing all your hoop lashings, you can use bronze hoop fasteners instead. They're pricey little buggers (about $15 per hoop at retail prices), but work pretty well.

The two pieces slide together and sort of lock. I put them on a good sized Catboat main for a friend and was not sure how well they'd work, or if they would have a tendency to come apart in use, but he hasn't had any problems after about three years of using them.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1302883&a=9668247&p=36971397

[This message has been edited by Todd Bradshaw (edited 01-04-2001).]

Todd Bradshaw
01-04-2001, 04:37 PM
If you want to be able to remove the sail from the mast without undoing all your hoop lashings, you can use bronze hoop fasteners instead. They're pricey little buggers (about $15 per hoop at retail prices), but work pretty well.

The two pieces slide together and sort of lock. I put them on a good sized Catboat main for a friend and was not sure how well they'd work, or if they would have a tendency to come apart in use, but he hasn't had any problems after about three years of using them.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1302883&a=9668247&p=36971397

[This message has been edited by Todd Bradshaw (edited 01-04-2001).]

Todd Bradshaw
01-04-2001, 04:37 PM
If you want to be able to remove the sail from the mast without undoing all your hoop lashings, you can use bronze hoop fasteners instead. They're pricey little buggers (about $15 per hoop at retail prices), but work pretty well.

The two pieces slide together and sort of lock. I put them on a good sized Catboat main for a friend and was not sure how well they'd work, or if they would have a tendency to come apart in use, but he hasn't had any problems after about three years of using them.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1302883&a=9668247&p=36971397

[This message has been edited by Todd Bradshaw (edited 01-04-2001).]

Ian Wright
01-04-2001, 04:54 PM
,,,,,,or lash small S/S or Bronze shackles to the hoops and put the shackle pins through the sail cringles,,,, works for me.

Oh yes,,,, Paul and Norm,,,,,, mention my name to Mark Butler at Jimmie Laurences, it won't do you any good, but it might get me a discount next time I order,,,,,,,, http://media4.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

IanW.

Ian Wright
01-04-2001, 04:54 PM
,,,,,,or lash small S/S or Bronze shackles to the hoops and put the shackle pins through the sail cringles,,,, works for me.

Oh yes,,,, Paul and Norm,,,,,, mention my name to Mark Butler at Jimmie Laurences, it won't do you any good, but it might get me a discount next time I order,,,,,,,, http://media4.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

IanW.

Ian Wright
01-04-2001, 04:54 PM
,,,,,,or lash small S/S or Bronze shackles to the hoops and put the shackle pins through the sail cringles,,,, works for me.

Oh yes,,,, Paul and Norm,,,,,, mention my name to Mark Butler at Jimmie Laurences, it won't do you any good, but it might get me a discount next time I order,,,,,,,, http://media4.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

IanW.

Mike Field
01-04-2001, 06:00 PM
Or make up (or buy) some hinged masthoops so you can take sail, hoops, and everything off or put it all on without having to remove the mast or any rigging first. See --

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au./hoops.htm

[This message has been edited by Mike Field (edited 01-04-2001).]

Mike Field
01-04-2001, 06:00 PM
Or make up (or buy) some hinged masthoops so you can take sail, hoops, and everything off or put it all on without having to remove the mast or any rigging first. See --

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au./hoops.htm

[This message has been edited by Mike Field (edited 01-04-2001).]

Mike Field
01-04-2001, 06:00 PM
Or make up (or buy) some hinged masthoops so you can take sail, hoops, and everything off or put it all on without having to remove the mast or any rigging first. See --

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au./hoops.htm

[This message has been edited by Mike Field (edited 01-04-2001).]

NormMessinger
01-04-2001, 07:32 PM
Get thee behind me Ian. If there is a discount to be had from Paul calling Mike Butler I have dibs. http://media4.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

I owe you for the idea of shackles on mast hoops however. I fear that I will not be able to keep the mainsail on the hoops when the mast is down for trailering. Thanks.

--Norm

NormMessinger
01-04-2001, 07:32 PM
Get thee behind me Ian. If there is a discount to be had from Paul calling Mike Butler I have dibs. http://media4.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

I owe you for the idea of shackles on mast hoops however. I fear that I will not be able to keep the mainsail on the hoops when the mast is down for trailering. Thanks.

--Norm

NormMessinger
01-04-2001, 07:32 PM
Get thee behind me Ian. If there is a discount to be had from Paul calling Mike Butler I have dibs. http://media4.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

I owe you for the idea of shackles on mast hoops however. I fear that I will not be able to keep the mainsail on the hoops when the mast is down for trailering. Thanks.

--Norm

Joe Zaraschi
01-05-2001, 07:20 PM
If you haven't done so, you should contact Brian at Clark Sailmakers in Essex, CT (860)767-8278. He makes only traditioanl made and cut sails and I would trust his opinion on the use of what type of cloth. He has built all the sails for Mystic Seaport's Brilliant. He knows how to make a gaff sail, and has built all the sails for me with good results...and he stands behind what he makes!

Joe Zaraschi
01-05-2001, 07:20 PM
If you haven't done so, you should contact Brian at Clark Sailmakers in Essex, CT (860)767-8278. He makes only traditioanl made and cut sails and I would trust his opinion on the use of what type of cloth. He has built all the sails for Mystic Seaport's Brilliant. He knows how to make a gaff sail, and has built all the sails for me with good results...and he stands behind what he makes!

Joe Zaraschi
01-05-2001, 07:20 PM
If you haven't done so, you should contact Brian at Clark Sailmakers in Essex, CT (860)767-8278. He makes only traditioanl made and cut sails and I would trust his opinion on the use of what type of cloth. He has built all the sails for Mystic Seaport's Brilliant. He knows how to make a gaff sail, and has built all the sails for me with good results...and he stands behind what he makes!

funanori
01-14-2001, 05:04 PM
Andy Gallison (bisac@riconnect.com) made a nice set of Oceanus 7 oz for my Rozinante, and has extensive experience in Herreshoff 12 1/2-sized boats. Beetle Cats (beetle.com) use a bronze brumel-type fitting to allow the sail to be easily unrigged from mast hoops.

funanori
01-14-2001, 05:04 PM
Andy Gallison (bisac@riconnect.com) made a nice set of Oceanus 7 oz for my Rozinante, and has extensive experience in Herreshoff 12 1/2-sized boats. Beetle Cats (beetle.com) use a bronze brumel-type fitting to allow the sail to be easily unrigged from mast hoops.

funanori
01-14-2001, 05:04 PM
Andy Gallison (bisac@riconnect.com) made a nice set of Oceanus 7 oz for my Rozinante, and has extensive experience in Herreshoff 12 1/2-sized boats. Beetle Cats (beetle.com) use a bronze brumel-type fitting to allow the sail to be easily unrigged from mast hoops.

Paul
02-28-2001, 11:44 AM
Thanks for all the replies and sources and the advise.
I got a good quote from Gambell and Hunter Sail makers out of Camden, Maine. I talked with Gary (real nice to talk with and in no hurry to get you on and off the phone and took the time to answer questions) and we worked out most of the details on what material to use for the sails. You may want to give them a call if you have a need.

Paul
02-28-2001, 11:44 AM
Thanks for all the replies and sources and the advise.
I got a good quote from Gambell and Hunter Sail makers out of Camden, Maine. I talked with Gary (real nice to talk with and in no hurry to get you on and off the phone and took the time to answer questions) and we worked out most of the details on what material to use for the sails. You may want to give them a call if you have a need.

Paul
02-28-2001, 11:44 AM
Thanks for all the replies and sources and the advise.
I got a good quote from Gambell and Hunter Sail makers out of Camden, Maine. I talked with Gary (real nice to talk with and in no hurry to get you on and off the phone and took the time to answer questions) and we worked out most of the details on what material to use for the sails. You may want to give them a call if you have a need.