PDA

View Full Version : Cabin Handrail Advice



jpendoley
03-01-2014, 03:28 PM
Hi Everyone,
I've come to this forum in the past for great advice and am hoping you can come though again. I guess I'm a wooden boat owner wannabe. I own a venerable plastic classic, an old 1966 Pearson Vanguard. Over the years, with the help of this forum, I have redone the interior to try to make it look more like an old wooden classic ala Concordia or Herreschoff. This season, I'd like to make handrails that act as gutters below opening ports that run the length of the salon. They look great and provide better bracing in a seaway than overhead rails and they keep the cabin drier. Two questions:

1. how are they made? They look like they are made on a shaper with a custom cutter. I don't have access to a shaper, so am hoping to learn of an easier method

2. How to fasten to the heavy fiberglass liner given the considerable for and aft curve in the cabin house? You can not bolt or screw into the thin fiberglass -I assume epoxy is the remaining choice-I'd be using teak or iroko. The liner is very well secured to the underlying cabin side.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Jim

donald branscom
03-01-2014, 04:46 PM
Hi Everyone,
I've come to this forum in the past for great advice and am hoping you can come though again. I guess I'm a wooden boat owner wannabe. I own a venerable plastic classic, an old 1966 Pearson Vanguard. Over the years, with the help of this forum, I have redone the interior to try to make it look more like an old wooden classic ala Concordia or Herreschoff. This season, I'd like to make handrails that act as gutters below opening ports that run the length of the salon. They look great and provide better bracing in a seaway than overhead rails and they keep the cabin drier. Two questions:

1. how are they made? They look like they are made on a shaper with a custom cutter. I don't have access to a shaper, so am hoping to learn of an easier method

2. How to fasten to the heavy fiberglass liner given the considerable for and aft curve in the cabin house? You can not bolt or screw into the thin fiberglass -I assume epoxy is the remaining choice-I'd be using teak or iroko. The liner is very well secured to the underlying cabin side.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Jim

When you say "gutters" that is why no one has answered you.

A boat has hand rails on each side of the cabin top.
When you say ports do you meant on the cabin top?
Should the hand rails be on the outside edge of the cabin top or should they be set inwards towards
the middle of the cabin top? That is a better question. If they are positioned right they will hold you from sliding on the cabin top while you sit, They also provide a hand hold at the same time.

Hand rails should be through bolted because your life could depend on them.
The issue is to make sure the bolts do not protrude into the interior and
cause harm to your head if you are thrown around inside the boat.

What you refer to as "gutters" (Land lubber talk), could be eyebrows to control the flow of water
off of the cabin top?

http://i59.tinypic.com/4tmsza.jpg
Concordia.

Bregalad
03-01-2014, 05:12 PM
I believe he is referring to a combination handrail and 'gutter' attached inside, to the sides of the cabin trunk just below the opening ports. I remember seeing an arrangement like that on one or two Tom Colvin designed boats. I don't know if Tom drew them that way or if someone else came up with the idea. Short of seeing exactly what he wants I don't want to speculate how I'd make them. My first thoughts involve making a jig for a router, but ?

Peerie Maa
03-01-2014, 05:19 PM
Donald,
I have seen details of cabin outfit where a strip of timber like a picture rail is attached below the cabin port lights to catch any drips, leaks or condensation and prevent it from falling onto the bunks or settees. It might also cover the join between the cabin side and deck as trim.
Cross post.

Jim.
I would look for an old woody rebate plane and reshape the sole and iron to the profile of the hollow. You can buy rounds from collectible tool dealers like these: http://www.toolbazaarcatalogue.co.uk/TBC/p1.htm#MOULDINGPLANES

Gluing them in may be tricky, I can see lots of long braces from side to side and up and down to wedge them into place.
Have you thought about where and how the condensation will be drained to?

aiprt
03-01-2014, 05:20 PM
Jim,

Is that what you have in mind ?

http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr/images/handrail.jpg

This is how French NA Daniel Bombigher designed the "handrail + gutter" for his schooners.
If you don't have a shaper, maybe you can have access to a router and make a particule board routing table ?

jpendoley
03-01-2014, 05:33 PM
Gilles, Nick and Bregalad,
You are each correct in your understanding of what I am trying to accomplish. I will try to upload an image. They serve two good purposes: great for handholds and great to catch incidental drips.

aiprt
03-01-2014, 05:41 PM
Have you thought about where and how the condensation will be drained to?

For those not familiar with French, Bombigher's caption reads
"Don't forget to make a passage through bulkheads for the water in the gutter to flow aft, where it will drain"
I understand the idea is to have a continuous gutter down to the cabin rear bulkhead for the water to drain into the cockpit.
But it could be more convenient to drain directly into the bilge below...

Ian McColgin
03-01-2014, 05:55 PM
Problem is that if you've a liner you don't have a secure way to mount a combination gutter and grab. The overhead rails shoule be through bolted to the outside cabin rail. You need to look to the many directions about how to post pix here to get something bigger than the thumbnail. It appears to be a poorly designed port that will indeed allow inside drip but that 's hard to tell. In any event, I don't see how you can attach a gutter/grab securely and don't see that as solving your drip anyway.

I have a lot of time in boats underway and much prefer overhead holds to something on the side anyway, but that's just me.

G'luck

jpendoley
03-01-2014, 06:11 PM
Ian, I have overhead rails through bolted to mated pairs above. These gutter/handrails define the fore and aft sweep of the trunk. They are pretty common and do provide additional handhold and bracing. Overheads work as well if you don't mind swinging like an orangutang. I will stud how to post larger images.

Ian McColgin
03-01-2014, 06:19 PM
I appreciate the utility of gutters. It's just that if you have a liner, it's incredibly hard to find an anchor for the gutter unless you pull the port rims and redo the lower fastenings with through bolts that can catch the gutter. If things can be made to fit.

G'luck

jpendoley
03-01-2014, 06:43 PM
Also, I think you can click on the thumbnail and it will enlarge

aiprt
03-01-2014, 06:57 PM
Also, I think you can click on the thumbnail and it will enlarge

Just make sure you untick the "Retrieve remote file and reference locally" checkbox.

donald branscom
03-02-2014, 02:56 PM
I believe he is referring to a combination handrail and 'gutter' attached inside, to the sides of the cabin trunk just below the opening ports. I remember seeing an arrangement like that on one or two Tom Colvin designed boats. I don't know if Tom drew them that way or if someone else came up with the idea. Short of seeing exactly what he wants I don't want to speculate how I'd make them. My first thoughts involve making a jig for a router, but ?


I have already done this before.
All you have to do is go to any lumber yard and get a OAK stair tread front edge moulding.
It is perfect and all you have to is attach it,
It goes INSIDE of the boat along the cabin sides and acts as a hand rail.
http://i61.tinypic.com/j79nr9.jpg


To keep the water out of the interior the port should have the bottom edge slanted down wards at a 45 on the outside of the boat.
Make sure the port you buy has water drains.
Worst case is you go to a RV camper store and buy this special foam material that soaks up the moisture and then it evaporates during the day.

Jay Greer
03-02-2014, 03:27 PM
Here is a picture of the rail that is around the base of "Bright Star's" deck house. It is concave on the back which is shaped to afford a good hand hold.
The outer side was shaped to fit ones hand as well. In truth, Herreshoff did not design this rail for the H28. Rather he had the ends of the deck beams open to afford more head room. I am guessing that Guiardo, the company in Barcellona, who built a few of these boats came up with it on their own. It does work very well. But, unless one can make a combination of passes over several stock router or shaper blades, I would opt for a custom shaped blade.
Jay
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9dd28b3127ccec6c7ac88d30f00000040O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107990352120090309184306625.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

jpendoley
03-02-2014, 05:58 PM
Jay, that's exactly what I was referring to. Concave outboard an convex inboard. Big curves for handholds. My portlights don't leak, these are primarily for handholds and accenting the cabin sides.

Old Frog
03-02-2014, 06:42 PM
Browse photos of the typical hand rail at the lower interior cabin side edge of the typical Hinckley or Ocean Cruising Yachts. I suspect that is similar to wha the OP is referring.

Ron Williamson
03-03-2014, 06:10 AM
Steel shaper knives run about $100/inch.
For the 20-30 feet you need,you might look into a bar rail edge,like the third picture
http://www.bar-rails.com/images/layout/exotic-hardwood-lumber.png

and mount it bottom side up.
I've made some with multiple passes using different shaper/tablesaw set ups and it worked pretty well,but it takes a lot of time.

The inside rails on my Chesapeake 32(same vintage Rhodes as your Vanguard) are sections of stainless tubing bolted on concave teak blocks.

R

slug
03-03-2014, 06:49 AM
Dont know what t he boat looks like but its very common to double wall the entire inside of the cabin house.

natural handhold , natural gutter and it captivates the curtain

also, round or flat oval handrails are straightforward to build with a router


http://s9.postimg.org/iq1f09iwv/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
imagen jpg (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

http://s3.postimg.org/mw6yjqyur/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
imagenes gratis (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

wizbang 13
03-03-2014, 07:30 AM
This " gutter" looks like a great way to let a leaky port lite deliver water to your pillow ten feet away and to employ a rot repair guy ten years down the road.

scottmacc
03-03-2014, 07:46 AM
Hi Everyone,
I've come to this forum in the past for great advice and am hoping you can come though again. I guess I'm a wooden boat owner wannabe. I own a venerable plastic classic, an old 1966 Pearson Vanguard. Over the years, with the help of this forum, I have redone the interior to try to make it look more like an old wooden classic ala Concordia or Herreschoff. This season, I'd like to make handrails that act as gutters below opening ports that run the length of the salon. They look great and provide better bracing in a seaway than overhead rails and they keep the cabin drier. Two questions:

1. how are they made? They look like they are made on a shaper with a custom cutter. I don't have access to a shaper, so am hoping to learn of an easier method

2. How to fasten to the heavy fiberglass liner given the considerable for and aft curve in the cabin house? You can not bolt or screw into the thin fiberglass -I assume epoxy is the remaining choice-I'd be using teak or iroko. The liner is very well secured to the underlying cabin side.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Jim


Take a look at this site: http://woodgears.ca/cove/ . It's a way to cut coves on a board using a table saw instead of a shaper. I used it to make the corner posts on my cabin. It takes a little planning a practice, with an eye toward safety, but works.

aiprt
03-03-2014, 08:09 AM
Take a look at this site: http://woodgears.ca/cove/ . It's a way to cut coves on a board using a table saw instead of a shaper. I used it to make the corner posts on my cabin. It takes a little planning a practice, with an eye toward safety, but works.

Clever use of the table saw. In France there are safety rules prohibiting such a use of a table saw - no riving knife, no blade guard- but with proper precautions this method seems very interesting.

seo
03-03-2014, 09:46 PM
I've owned a Nevins-built boat for 20+ years, and have had the fun of dealing with the construction detail that you call a "gutter," which is about as "wizbang" described it in #19 above. If you were planning construction of a wooden hull, I'd refer you to the construction plans of L. F. Herreschof, who made a leap in construction by realizing that the traditional style of building a deck erection on an opening framed with carlins is a hold-over from when workboats with cargo hatches were fitted with cabin trunks. Okay for an adaptation, but idiotic construction. LFH used the side of the cabin trunk as the longitudinal strength member, and got rid of the carlin. Later, Derektor and Figueroa came up with the idea of extending the deck half-beams in past the cabin trunk by a an inch or so, and then capping the inboar ends of the half-beams with a longitudinal hand-rail. Ideal for grabbing onto, good for hanging towels, mittens, etc, up to dry.
But I have no idea of how you'd adapt any of this to molded FRP.

JimConlin
03-03-2014, 10:28 PM
I owned another boat of the same era and builder as your vanguard, an Alberg 35. I added 'loop' style handrails on the inside which used the same bolts and mirrored the originals on the outside. They worked well.

Dave Lesser
03-04-2014, 01:24 AM
Here are some details from the handrail/gutters on our boat. They're made of cherry using a custom cutter. Another way to accomplish the shape would be to make a series of cuts on the table saw that approximated the shape, then finish by hand.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3730/12921457605_18aa41b6f6.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7300/12921459445_7873783033.jpg


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2822/12921569113_76504ec301.jpg

scottmacc
03-04-2014, 08:32 AM
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp185/scottmacc/Boat%20Planning%20Photos/00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000DD7.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp185/scottmacc/Boat%20Planning%20Photos/00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000DD8.jpghttp://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp185/scottmacc/Boat%20Planning%20Photos/00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000DD9.jpg

These are a few pictures I had saved that show how a table saw could be used to rough-out the shape. This, coupled with the info I included in the link above should get the job done... Unless of course, you live in France. ��

Ian McColgin
03-04-2014, 08:44 AM
To my eye the bit of wood under the port in #6 does not look well. I'm with those who like the gutter part of the inner molding of the deck to trunk joint. In the thumbnail in #6, if that lower bit of mahogony does not provide such, simply screwing a suitably strong additional piece would do. This is just what we have in Marmalade and it makes a nice grip. The pic in #25 shows it rather well. The pic below really shows the wonderful cleaning job Susan is celebrating, but the gutter/grip is that bit of mahogony that passes behind the hanging lamp. It's the bottom of the trunk so the vertical surfaces below it are actually about 18" outboard also.

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1/34501_1353461071695_5540787_n.jpg?lvh=1

Figment
03-04-2014, 09:25 AM
2. How to fasten to the heavy fiberglass liner given the considerable for and aft curve in the cabin house? You can not bolt or screw into the thin fiberglass -I assume epoxy is the remaining choice-I'd be using teak or iroko. The liner is very well secured to the underlying cabin side.


First things first... why on earth would you want to bother with teak or iroko or any other superdense hardwood for this? It's nonstructural and not exposed to weather, not particularly subject to any real abuse, if ever there were an onboard-application for stained softwood, this would be it.
Also, and I say this with love, it's a Pearson not a NY40.

As for how to secure it to the liner, you're on the right track. I suggest adhering some blocking to the underside of the deck, and then securing your grabrail/gutter to that in a fashion that approximates the "Dessin 266" detail from post #5

I think Tim Lackey did something like this a few years ago, but I can't quite put my finger on it. It will come to me.

jpendoley
03-06-2014, 08:56 AM
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the ideas. Dave your design is pretty close to what what I had in mind. Same for the picture Ian posted. As for the wood choice, the boat is trimmed in teak throughout, but I have found iroko to nearly identical in appearance if not characteristics. And it doesn't look like a stock Pearson any longer, I have wasted tons of my youth remaking her.

MiddleAgesMan
03-06-2014, 11:40 AM
Such two-purposed rails are barely clever. They will be poor hand-holds (install a hand rail on the overhead instead); instead of a trough to carry leaks aft (to where?) fix the leaks in the port lights.

kc8pql
03-06-2014, 11:53 AM
instead of a trough to carry leaks aft (to where?) fix the leaks in the port lights.
The purpose of the trough is not to catch leaks from the ports. It's there to catch drips when a wet port is opened after a rain.
Much nicer than having water dripping on your bunk or settee.

I have gutter/handrails similar to the ones proposed by the OP. I also have overhead handrails (and the OP says he does too). I recommend both.

http://i5.tinypic.com/20pemhd.jpg

Figment
03-07-2014, 08:44 AM
I assure you that such grabrails are well beyond clever.
At certain angles of heel they're better than those secured to the overhead.