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sr. jigaboni
10-05-2004, 02:31 AM
I'm all done seaming (and false seaming) my first real fabric sail (350 ct bedsheet, thx TB), a little bitty standing lug, and it's time to finish it.

I'm basically using the techniques presented in Marino's book, but my cheap plastic capped palm hasn't fared too well (nor worked for some aspects). There is no way I'll be able to do this right without the right stuff: I will improvise if I have to, but that's what polytarp is for, this is a geek out project.

At the very least I would like to buy a nice seaming palm, but a roping palm would be welcome, too. I'm not looking for the palms they sell at Sailrite and West Marine; I've been there and it's time to upgrade. This is my first "real" sail project, but I sew other stuff alot, and would use the palm. I also think I'll build some more sails (way less sawdust) in the future.

I am able, and willing, to make a plaster cast of my hand and ship it for a custom fit, like making a boot on a last. I am expecting, though, a generic palm that I break in and fit myself: my dad was a pro baseball player, so I know a thing or two about conditioning leather.

ps pictures will have to wait. none of my photographic equipment even uses batteries (gasp) so cpu interface is a long chain. Plus, I have to wait until I'm at the end of a roll. Project cam has three projects on it, and six exposures left. then I will have a cd made and flood this joint, sail included, and new palm if I get one.

Oh yeah, I'm not afraid to pay for what I get for, especially when it comes to capital investments like tools, so don't skimp... I want good palms, please.

sr. jigaboni
10-05-2004, 02:31 AM
I'm all done seaming (and false seaming) my first real fabric sail (350 ct bedsheet, thx TB), a little bitty standing lug, and it's time to finish it.

I'm basically using the techniques presented in Marino's book, but my cheap plastic capped palm hasn't fared too well (nor worked for some aspects). There is no way I'll be able to do this right without the right stuff: I will improvise if I have to, but that's what polytarp is for, this is a geek out project.

At the very least I would like to buy a nice seaming palm, but a roping palm would be welcome, too. I'm not looking for the palms they sell at Sailrite and West Marine; I've been there and it's time to upgrade. This is my first "real" sail project, but I sew other stuff alot, and would use the palm. I also think I'll build some more sails (way less sawdust) in the future.

I am able, and willing, to make a plaster cast of my hand and ship it for a custom fit, like making a boot on a last. I am expecting, though, a generic palm that I break in and fit myself: my dad was a pro baseball player, so I know a thing or two about conditioning leather.

ps pictures will have to wait. none of my photographic equipment even uses batteries (gasp) so cpu interface is a long chain. Plus, I have to wait until I'm at the end of a roll. Project cam has three projects on it, and six exposures left. then I will have a cd made and flood this joint, sail included, and new palm if I get one.

Oh yeah, I'm not afraid to pay for what I get for, especially when it comes to capital investments like tools, so don't skimp... I want good palms, please.

sr. jigaboni
10-05-2004, 02:31 AM
I'm all done seaming (and false seaming) my first real fabric sail (350 ct bedsheet, thx TB), a little bitty standing lug, and it's time to finish it.

I'm basically using the techniques presented in Marino's book, but my cheap plastic capped palm hasn't fared too well (nor worked for some aspects). There is no way I'll be able to do this right without the right stuff: I will improvise if I have to, but that's what polytarp is for, this is a geek out project.

At the very least I would like to buy a nice seaming palm, but a roping palm would be welcome, too. I'm not looking for the palms they sell at Sailrite and West Marine; I've been there and it's time to upgrade. This is my first "real" sail project, but I sew other stuff alot, and would use the palm. I also think I'll build some more sails (way less sawdust) in the future.

I am able, and willing, to make a plaster cast of my hand and ship it for a custom fit, like making a boot on a last. I am expecting, though, a generic palm that I break in and fit myself: my dad was a pro baseball player, so I know a thing or two about conditioning leather.

ps pictures will have to wait. none of my photographic equipment even uses batteries (gasp) so cpu interface is a long chain. Plus, I have to wait until I'm at the end of a roll. Project cam has three projects on it, and six exposures left. then I will have a cd made and flood this joint, sail included, and new palm if I get one.

Oh yeah, I'm not afraid to pay for what I get for, especially when it comes to capital investments like tools, so don't skimp... I want good palms, please.

Todd Bradshaw
10-05-2004, 03:30 AM
The only sources I know are wholesale suppliers to sailmakers, but Sailrite will usually special order just about anything you need from them as can most sailmakers. The best selection is from Bainbridge International (Sailrite buys lots of stuff from them and your nearest sailmaker probably does, too). You can see the models here:
http://www.sail-making.com/dbimgs/page138_139us.pdf

Scroll down to the professional palms section. The "good quality" (C028-C031) are just that. I have a couple that I've used for a long time and they're fine for nearly any task. I suspect that once they get marked-up by your dealer you should expect them to be in the $50-$55 range.

The "super quality" models (C032-34) are thicker and stiffer. They take longer to break in and are somewhat better for really heavy work (but not all that much better) and should retail in the $75-$80 range. I have one that I've used a lot but the last one I bought was too small to fit my hand. I took it apart to make a pattern for a bigger version and to re-use the iron. I'm a little leery of ordering another one as nobody could tell me why it was so small or whether they all are that size these days. As far as I know, Smith doesn't make them in various sizes. It's funny, but the super quality models are painted with black enamel that looks like it was applied by a blind man with a broom. I always scrape it off.

This ain't no baseball glove and you don't want it to ever get soft and pliable. I never put any type of dressing or oil on them, in fact they come painted or varnished and should probably stay that way. I do soak new ones in hot water for about 20 minutes, sew with them for a little while so that they mold to my hand-shape and then very carefully take them off and let them dry to that shape and revert their previous stiffness. The process may cause some of the varnish to flake off, but it can be renewed later and soaking does shorten the break-in period quite a bit. The hardness of the palm is what gives you the leverage needed to push needles through heavy fabric. It spreads the force out over a wide area of your hand. It also protects you from driving the back end of a big needle into your flesh if you aren't paying attention and miss the iron.

[ 10-05-2004, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

Todd Bradshaw
10-05-2004, 03:30 AM
The only sources I know are wholesale suppliers to sailmakers, but Sailrite will usually special order just about anything you need from them as can most sailmakers. The best selection is from Bainbridge International (Sailrite buys lots of stuff from them and your nearest sailmaker probably does, too). You can see the models here:
http://www.sail-making.com/dbimgs/page138_139us.pdf

Scroll down to the professional palms section. The "good quality" (C028-C031) are just that. I have a couple that I've used for a long time and they're fine for nearly any task. I suspect that once they get marked-up by your dealer you should expect them to be in the $50-$55 range.

The "super quality" models (C032-34) are thicker and stiffer. They take longer to break in and are somewhat better for really heavy work (but not all that much better) and should retail in the $75-$80 range. I have one that I've used a lot but the last one I bought was too small to fit my hand. I took it apart to make a pattern for a bigger version and to re-use the iron. I'm a little leery of ordering another one as nobody could tell me why it was so small or whether they all are that size these days. As far as I know, Smith doesn't make them in various sizes. It's funny, but the super quality models are painted with black enamel that looks like it was applied by a blind man with a broom. I always scrape it off.

This ain't no baseball glove and you don't want it to ever get soft and pliable. I never put any type of dressing or oil on them, in fact they come painted or varnished and should probably stay that way. I do soak new ones in hot water for about 20 minutes, sew with them for a little while so that they mold to my hand-shape and then very carefully take them off and let them dry to that shape and revert their previous stiffness. The process may cause some of the varnish to flake off, but it can be renewed later and soaking does shorten the break-in period quite a bit. The hardness of the palm is what gives you the leverage needed to push needles through heavy fabric. It spreads the force out over a wide area of your hand. It also protects you from driving the back end of a big needle into your flesh if you aren't paying attention and miss the iron.

[ 10-05-2004, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

Todd Bradshaw
10-05-2004, 03:30 AM
The only sources I know are wholesale suppliers to sailmakers, but Sailrite will usually special order just about anything you need from them as can most sailmakers. The best selection is from Bainbridge International (Sailrite buys lots of stuff from them and your nearest sailmaker probably does, too). You can see the models here:
http://www.sail-making.com/dbimgs/page138_139us.pdf

Scroll down to the professional palms section. The "good quality" (C028-C031) are just that. I have a couple that I've used for a long time and they're fine for nearly any task. I suspect that once they get marked-up by your dealer you should expect them to be in the $50-$55 range.

The "super quality" models (C032-34) are thicker and stiffer. They take longer to break in and are somewhat better for really heavy work (but not all that much better) and should retail in the $75-$80 range. I have one that I've used a lot but the last one I bought was too small to fit my hand. I took it apart to make a pattern for a bigger version and to re-use the iron. I'm a little leery of ordering another one as nobody could tell me why it was so small or whether they all are that size these days. As far as I know, Smith doesn't make them in various sizes. It's funny, but the super quality models are painted with black enamel that looks like it was applied by a blind man with a broom. I always scrape it off.

This ain't no baseball glove and you don't want it to ever get soft and pliable. I never put any type of dressing or oil on them, in fact they come painted or varnished and should probably stay that way. I do soak new ones in hot water for about 20 minutes, sew with them for a little while so that they mold to my hand-shape and then very carefully take them off and let them dry to that shape and revert their previous stiffness. The process may cause some of the varnish to flake off, but it can be renewed later and soaking does shorten the break-in period quite a bit. The hardness of the palm is what gives you the leverage needed to push needles through heavy fabric. It spreads the force out over a wide area of your hand. It also protects you from driving the back end of a big needle into your flesh if you aren't paying attention and miss the iron.

[ 10-05-2004, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

Moray MacPhail
10-05-2004, 07:30 AM
I'd ask Des Pawson if I were you.
knots@footrope.fsnet.co.uk

Moray MacPhail
10-05-2004, 07:30 AM
I'd ask Des Pawson if I were you.
knots@footrope.fsnet.co.uk

Moray MacPhail
10-05-2004, 07:30 AM
I'd ask Des Pawson if I were you.
knots@footrope.fsnet.co.uk

Figment
10-05-2004, 01:58 PM
The Wooden Boat Foundation's chandlery.

http://www.woodenboat.org/store/folder.asp?f=255

Figment
10-05-2004, 01:58 PM
The Wooden Boat Foundation's chandlery.

http://www.woodenboat.org/store/folder.asp?f=255

Figment
10-05-2004, 01:58 PM
The Wooden Boat Foundation's chandlery.

http://www.woodenboat.org/store/folder.asp?f=255

Todd Bradshaw
10-05-2004, 05:14 PM
Yep, those top two are the good ones. It's also a good source since they regularly sell them retail. If one won't fit it can probably be returned, no sweat. That might not be the case if you have somebody special order one for you from Bainbridge, since wholesale suppliers often take a dim view of returns.

Todd Bradshaw
10-05-2004, 05:14 PM
Yep, those top two are the good ones. It's also a good source since they regularly sell them retail. If one won't fit it can probably be returned, no sweat. That might not be the case if you have somebody special order one for you from Bainbridge, since wholesale suppliers often take a dim view of returns.

Todd Bradshaw
10-05-2004, 05:14 PM
Yep, those top two are the good ones. It's also a good source since they regularly sell them retail. If one won't fit it can probably be returned, no sweat. That might not be the case if you have somebody special order one for you from Bainbridge, since wholesale suppliers often take a dim view of returns.

sr. jigaboni
10-05-2004, 10:44 PM
wow!

Thanks, thanks, thanks. The Wooden Boat Foundation will get my business, not because I didslike Mr. Pawson (who's awesome), nor any wholesale sailhouses, but because I like that type of business. Also, those lovely palms are just what I was looking for; I'll be able to give them to my son one day.

TB. From your description, I shellaced (I make paper boats, so I have LOTS of shellac around) my old, cheap palm to make it a little firmer. No, my "conditioning" isn't the cause of the softness, as it was a real thin piece of garbage to begin with; a single layer of, maybe, 2oz leather with a plastic cup little bigger than the iron. The shellac added lots of stiffnes, and I wore it while the shellac dried, so it fits a lot better now, too.

Incidentally, my father was a catcher, and his mitt, while soft, is a stiff and hard as any leather mitt has a right to be; shiny, too. He blossomed from relacing gloves to any other type of leather work you can imagine. The divorce precluded me from absorbing most of this knowledge.

I wish to express my thanks again. I'll be ordering my palm forthwith, and start sharpening my bench hook. Thank you thank you.

sr. jigaboni
10-05-2004, 10:44 PM
wow!

Thanks, thanks, thanks. The Wooden Boat Foundation will get my business, not because I didslike Mr. Pawson (who's awesome), nor any wholesale sailhouses, but because I like that type of business. Also, those lovely palms are just what I was looking for; I'll be able to give them to my son one day.

TB. From your description, I shellaced (I make paper boats, so I have LOTS of shellac around) my old, cheap palm to make it a little firmer. No, my "conditioning" isn't the cause of the softness, as it was a real thin piece of garbage to begin with; a single layer of, maybe, 2oz leather with a plastic cup little bigger than the iron. The shellac added lots of stiffnes, and I wore it while the shellac dried, so it fits a lot better now, too.

Incidentally, my father was a catcher, and his mitt, while soft, is a stiff and hard as any leather mitt has a right to be; shiny, too. He blossomed from relacing gloves to any other type of leather work you can imagine. The divorce precluded me from absorbing most of this knowledge.

I wish to express my thanks again. I'll be ordering my palm forthwith, and start sharpening my bench hook. Thank you thank you.

sr. jigaboni
10-05-2004, 10:44 PM
wow!

Thanks, thanks, thanks. The Wooden Boat Foundation will get my business, not because I didslike Mr. Pawson (who's awesome), nor any wholesale sailhouses, but because I like that type of business. Also, those lovely palms are just what I was looking for; I'll be able to give them to my son one day.

TB. From your description, I shellaced (I make paper boats, so I have LOTS of shellac around) my old, cheap palm to make it a little firmer. No, my "conditioning" isn't the cause of the softness, as it was a real thin piece of garbage to begin with; a single layer of, maybe, 2oz leather with a plastic cup little bigger than the iron. The shellac added lots of stiffnes, and I wore it while the shellac dried, so it fits a lot better now, too.

Incidentally, my father was a catcher, and his mitt, while soft, is a stiff and hard as any leather mitt has a right to be; shiny, too. He blossomed from relacing gloves to any other type of leather work you can imagine. The divorce precluded me from absorbing most of this knowledge.

I wish to express my thanks again. I'll be ordering my palm forthwith, and start sharpening my bench hook. Thank you thank you.

sr. jigaboni
10-05-2004, 10:54 PM
I just went back to the chandlery again. man those are nice palms! even the "cheap" store level palms wipe the floor with mine, but those top two.

I might even trade 110 year old Taiwanese (technically, it was Formosa when the plane was made) low angle block plane for one of those...

sr. jigaboni
10-05-2004, 10:54 PM
I just went back to the chandlery again. man those are nice palms! even the "cheap" store level palms wipe the floor with mine, but those top two.

I might even trade 110 year old Taiwanese (technically, it was Formosa when the plane was made) low angle block plane for one of those...

sr. jigaboni
10-05-2004, 10:54 PM
I just went back to the chandlery again. man those are nice palms! even the "cheap" store level palms wipe the floor with mine, but those top two.

I might even trade 110 year old Taiwanese (technically, it was Formosa when the plane was made) low angle block plane for one of those...

DerekW
11-10-2004, 05:17 PM
Roping versus Seaming?

Someone straighten this out for me please.

AFAIK, a roping palm has an iron with larger divots, presented at a flatter angle. It also has a larger thumb-guard, eh?

Any reason why I should think about buying a roping palm? The 'Less than Best' quality seaming palm has sufficed thus far, but I'm tempted to upgrade, and would rather only buy one $70 palm smile.gif

The Wooden Boat Foundation website linked above has the same picture for roping and seaming palms: not terribly helpful. [Yes, I know, they flipped the image of the 'Best' palm, but it's still the same image]

cheers
Derek

DerekW
11-10-2004, 05:17 PM
Roping versus Seaming?

Someone straighten this out for me please.

AFAIK, a roping palm has an iron with larger divots, presented at a flatter angle. It also has a larger thumb-guard, eh?

Any reason why I should think about buying a roping palm? The 'Less than Best' quality seaming palm has sufficed thus far, but I'm tempted to upgrade, and would rather only buy one $70 palm smile.gif

The Wooden Boat Foundation website linked above has the same picture for roping and seaming palms: not terribly helpful. [Yes, I know, they flipped the image of the 'Best' palm, but it's still the same image]

cheers
Derek

DerekW
11-10-2004, 05:17 PM
Roping versus Seaming?

Someone straighten this out for me please.

AFAIK, a roping palm has an iron with larger divots, presented at a flatter angle. It also has a larger thumb-guard, eh?

Any reason why I should think about buying a roping palm? The 'Less than Best' quality seaming palm has sufficed thus far, but I'm tempted to upgrade, and would rather only buy one $70 palm smile.gif

The Wooden Boat Foundation website linked above has the same picture for roping and seaming palms: not terribly helpful. [Yes, I know, they flipped the image of the 'Best' palm, but it's still the same image]

cheers
Derek

Nicholas Carey
11-10-2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by DerekW:
Roping versus Seaming?

Someone straighten this out for me please.

AFAIK, a roping palm has an iron with larger divots, presented at a flatter angle. It also has a larger thumb-guard, eh?

Any reason why I should think about buying a roping palm? The 'Less than Best' quality seaming palm has sufficed thus far, but I'm tempted to upgrade, and would rather only buy one $70 palm smile.gif The 'guard' on the roping palm lets you easily "heave taught" on your stitches (such as when stitching in a whipping on the end of a line) by bending the twine over the guard and pulling.

Nicholas Carey
11-10-2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by DerekW:
Roping versus Seaming?

Someone straighten this out for me please.

AFAIK, a roping palm has an iron with larger divots, presented at a flatter angle. It also has a larger thumb-guard, eh?

Any reason why I should think about buying a roping palm? The 'Less than Best' quality seaming palm has sufficed thus far, but I'm tempted to upgrade, and would rather only buy one $70 palm smile.gif The 'guard' on the roping palm lets you easily "heave taught" on your stitches (such as when stitching in a whipping on the end of a line) by bending the twine over the guard and pulling.

Nicholas Carey
11-10-2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by DerekW:
Roping versus Seaming?

Someone straighten this out for me please.

AFAIK, a roping palm has an iron with larger divots, presented at a flatter angle. It also has a larger thumb-guard, eh?

Any reason why I should think about buying a roping palm? The 'Less than Best' quality seaming palm has sufficed thus far, but I'm tempted to upgrade, and would rather only buy one $70 palm smile.gif The 'guard' on the roping palm lets you easily "heave taught" on your stitches (such as when stitching in a whipping on the end of a line) by bending the twine over the guard and pulling.

Todd Bradshaw
11-10-2004, 08:49 PM
Yep, that's the difference. Actually, I'd buy a roping palm long before investing in a seaming palm. Seaming is done with moderately light thread and needles and it's not under a lot of tension during the sewing process. When you get to the point of roping edges, or especially sewing-in rings you really need to be able to pull hard on the stitches. You can sew seams just fine with a roping palm, even though it's a little more bulky but most seaming palms don't do rings and roping very well.

Todd Bradshaw
11-10-2004, 08:49 PM
Yep, that's the difference. Actually, I'd buy a roping palm long before investing in a seaming palm. Seaming is done with moderately light thread and needles and it's not under a lot of tension during the sewing process. When you get to the point of roping edges, or especially sewing-in rings you really need to be able to pull hard on the stitches. You can sew seams just fine with a roping palm, even though it's a little more bulky but most seaming palms don't do rings and roping very well.

Todd Bradshaw
11-10-2004, 08:49 PM
Yep, that's the difference. Actually, I'd buy a roping palm long before investing in a seaming palm. Seaming is done with moderately light thread and needles and it's not under a lot of tension during the sewing process. When you get to the point of roping edges, or especially sewing-in rings you really need to be able to pull hard on the stitches. You can sew seams just fine with a roping palm, even though it's a little more bulky but most seaming palms don't do rings and roping very well.