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CK 17
02-15-2014, 02:17 PM
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/02/14/1277641/-Missouri-lawmaker-introduces-bill-allowing-familes-to-opt-out-of-learning-evolution?#

Sky Blue
02-15-2014, 02:58 PM
Careful with gravity. You don't want to go comparing things with gravity around here. Turns out gravity isn't as simple as you thought. You may not know all the theories of gravity, all the relevant disciplines, quantum mechanics, higgs-boson, basic relativity theory, black holes not as black as we thought, etc., etc., etc.

Perhaps you should have suggested opting out of the earth being gravitationally associated with our sun... Oh, never mind.

Durnik
02-15-2014, 03:01 PM
State Rep. Rick Brattin (R) [said].. “What’s being taught is just as much faith and, you know, just as much pulled out of the air as, say, any religion."

I like this line. He admits that religion was 'pulled out of the air', tho some might say it was pulled from elsewhere. He likely doesn't even realize that is what he said. Still, this means that religion should have no right to expect to trump _anything_, esp science.

enjoy
bobby

jonboy
02-15-2014, 03:02 PM
Fine , let them opt out and commit themselves to a lifetime of ignorance and misinformation...they'll get on fine in their own social circle but with a bit of luck never impinge on the rest of us. The principles of Darwin's ideas I hope will see to their inexorable decline, and for the intelligent offspring who can see beyond the stupidity and bigotry, welcome , but leave the dimwit progenitors to a life of misguided bliss. Unless they are right of course.....

Ian McColgin
02-15-2014, 03:17 PM
I used to disobey the law of gravitation quite often but now my spinal arthritis slows that up and all I can do is watch with envy the arial tricks on the Olypmics.

Sky Blue
02-15-2014, 03:20 PM
^ lol Ian

Dan McCosh
02-15-2014, 03:41 PM
Is there any practical application of the theory of evolution?

skuthorp
02-15-2014, 03:43 PM
If it wasn't so tragic for their offspring it'd be very funny. Out-satiring the satyrists.
You couldn't write this stuff.

bogdog
02-15-2014, 03:52 PM
Is there any practical application of the theory of evolution?Understanding biology and everything that goes with that? I'd be agreeable to Missouri passing such a law as long as it's called the Shallowender Bill and all who opt out of evolutionary teaching are given the preface "Shallowender" when addressed in class.

JimD
02-15-2014, 03:56 PM
If it wasn't so tragic for their offspring it'd be very funny...

Can't say I quite agree with this. Accepting the strength of a given scientific theory or conversely believing in a religious dogma that refutes it might have very little impact on the quality of their lives.

JimD
02-15-2014, 04:04 PM
Is there any practical application of the theory of evolution?
A good question. For example, without Relativity Theory GPS wouldn't work. Without Quantum Theory dozens of other commonplace technologies wouldn't be possible. And even so neither theory can be demonstrated to be absolutely fundamental. One or both will one day be replaced with a more finely tuned theory. But with evolution its hard to see the downside of parents denying its validity, even provisionally. Do we expect children are going to evolve differently if they don't believe in evolution? Will they be less happy or successful? Less able to procreate?

ahp
02-15-2014, 04:12 PM
Where are Voltaire and George Bernard Shaw when we need them? Oops, I just realized that people like that don't read Voltaire or GBS. Maybe they don't read, but they do vote.

Ian McColgin
02-15-2014, 04:13 PM
Without understanding evolution and mutation, flu vaccinations would not work at all.

Dan McCosh
02-15-2014, 04:15 PM
A good question. For example, without Relativity Theory GPS wouldn't work. Without Quantum Theory dozens of other commonplace technologies wouldn't be possible. And even so neither theory can be demonstrated to be absolutely fundamental. One or both will one day be replaced with a more finely tuned theory. But with evolution its hard to see the downside of parents denying its validity, even provisionally. Do we expect children are going to evolve differently if they don't believe in evolution? Will they be less happy or successful? Less able to procreate? That's pretty much what I was thinking. The only thing that comes to mind is antibiotics creating super-germs.

Ted Hoppe
02-15-2014, 04:19 PM
Hollywood star also supports opting out of gravity.

http://us.cdn291.fansshare.com/photo/sofiavergara/sofia-vergara-at-th-primetime-emmy-awards-in-los-angeles-emmys-382379655.jpg

Dan McCosh
02-15-2014, 04:21 PM
Without understanding evolution and mutation, flu vaccinations would not work at all. Vaccination preceded Darwin by about 80 years or so.

bogdog
02-15-2014, 04:25 PM
That's pretty much what I was thinking. The only thing that comes to mind is antibiotics creating super-germs.Vector control of insects with developing resistance to either biological or chemical control, wildlife management of captive populations used for re-introduction. Commercial animal farming both aquatic and terrestrial which has already been used for thousands of years.

Ian McColgin
02-15-2014, 04:25 PM
Yes, small pox and such. But if you don't understand evolution you will not be able to make new flue vaccines each year or mostly correctly make vaccines for next year's flu. But then, you knew that leaving out the qualifier "flu" for plain fun.

Ian McColgin
02-15-2014, 04:29 PM
But rather than pick the nit, how about a simple statement. I have learned that the theories of evolution are good science, corrigible and evolving as we gain understanding and evidence and together with other scientific theories fits into a general and predictivly useful framework. I have also learned that the creationist stance is not based on evidence, cannot be proven or disproven by evidence, and is not able to predict anything except perhaps the election of idiots.

Peerie Maa
02-15-2014, 04:32 PM
Is there any practical application of the theory of evolution?

Yep, here is a list of how the theory of evolution has been used.

1. •Bioinformatics, a multi-billion-dollar industry, consists largely of the comparison of genetic sequences. Descent with modification is one of its most basic assumptions.
2. •Diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture (Bull and Wichman 2001).
3. •Evolutionary theory is used to manage fisheries for greater yields (Conover and Munch 2002).
4. •Artificial selection has been used since prehistory, but it has become much more efficient with the addition of quantitative trait locus mapping.
5. •Knowledge of the evolution of parasite virulence in human populations can help guide public health policy (Galvani 2003).
6. •Sex allocation theory, based on evolution theory, was used to predict conditions under which the highly endangered kakapo bird would produce more female offspring, which retrieved it from the brink of extinction (Sutherland 2002).
7. •Tracing genes of known function and comparing how they are related to unknown genes helps one to predict unknown gene function, which is foundational for drug discovery (Branca 2002; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).
8. •Phylogenetic analysis is a standard part of epidemiology, since it allows the identification of disease reservoirs and sometimes the tracking of step-by-step transmission of disease. For example, phylogenetic analysis confirmed that a Florida dentist was infecting his patients with HIV, that HIV-1 and HIV-2 were transmitted to humans from chimpanzees and mangabey monkeys in the twentieth century, and, when polio was being eradicated from the Americas, that new cases were not coming from hidden reservoirs (Bull and Wichman 2001). It was used in 2002 to help convict a man of intentionally infecting someone with HIV (Vogel 1998). The same principle can be used to trace the source of bioweapons (Cummings and Relman 2002).
9. •Phylogenetic analysis to track the diversity of a pathogen can be used to select an appropriate vaccine for a particular region (Gaschen et al. 2002).
10. •Ribotyping is a technique for identifying an organism or at least finding its closest known relative by mapping its ribosomal RNA onto the tree of life. It can be used even when the organisms cannot be cultured or recognized by other methods. Ribotyping and other genotyping methods have been used to find previously unknown infectious agents of human disease (Bull and Wichman 2001; Relman 1999).
11. •Phylogenetic analysis helps in determining protein folds, since proteins diverging from a common ancestor tend to conserve their folds (Benner 2001).

Directed evolution allows the "breeding" of molecules or molecular pathways to create or enhance products, including:
12. •enzymes (Arnold 2001)
13. •pigments (Arnold 2001)
14. •antibiotics
15. •flavors
16. •biopolymers
17. •bacterial strains to decompose hazardous materials.
18. Directed evolution can also be used to study the folding and function of natural enzymes (Taylor et al. 2001).

It looks as though much of the above was taken from here; http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA215.html

Added by GenesForLife;

19.The use of model systems including Drosophila melanogaster, Caenorhabditis elegans, Danio rerio and even good old Saccharomyces cerevisiae to understand the function of genes and the application of the knowledge derived therefrom to human systems and understanding human diseases.

20. The identification of potential oncogenes in amplified regions of cancer cell genomes and the identification of tumour suppressors in segments that are prone to deletion and Loss of heterozygosity, both of which are based upon the selective advantages associated with overexpressing or losing certain genes.

21. The application of evolutionary algorithms to designing aircraft wings (Obayashi, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf)

Added by Delvo (with commentary by Calilasseia);

22. Algorithms mimicking natural selection have yielded "designs" that have been used to build some bits of technology. [See for example, the paper on spacecraft antennae designed using evolutionary algorithms].

23. Shifting from science to society: it provides alternate explanations for physical and some cultural differences between peoples native to different regions of the world, thus debunking moralistic or otherwise judgemental explanations that have caused conflict between them or been used by one against another. It also helps our understanding of the kinds of mistakes our own minds can make without realizing it, which helps us develop ways to work around them, which makes us better at science research in general, technological development of all kinds, criminal justice, and social policy.


from http://www.rationalskepticism.org/ev...on-t21306.html (http://www.rationalskepticism.org/evolution/advances-to-society-because-of-the-theory-of-evolution-t21306.html)

Dan McCosh
02-15-2014, 05:07 PM
I might add that I do have a B.S. degree in a field of biology, and I didn't take any course in Darwin's theory of Evolution. It was mentioned mainly in history classes, as a clash between the broad idea of scientific method vs. fundamentalist religion. I don't think it was even taught as a course. I am reading a book on the medical science now, and one of the interesting thoughts was that medicine schools in the U.S. did not require any science or college about the time of Darwin. The introduction of scientific methodology into medicine was quite late, at least in the U.S.. Fundamentals of chemistry were the primary study when it did happen. Religious objections to things like autopsies seem to have been far more important than the resistance to the theory of evolution.

JimD
02-15-2014, 05:11 PM
Some good points on the practical application of evolution theory. But religion has been coming to terms with science through uneasy truce for hundreds of years, finding clever ways to both endorse the aspects of science that do not overtly challenge it while denying science that does directly confront religion at the same time. No reason it won't continue to do so. Science could do itself a favour by not positioning itself as being right. Scientific knowledge is always truncated and provisional and it could benefit by being humble enough to admit it more often and openly. Science could promote itself as a rational methodology with a proven though imperfect track record allowing religion room to save face. This escalating push/push-back between science and religion isn't going to solve anything.

TomF
02-15-2014, 05:25 PM
Vaccination preceded Darwin by about 80 years or so.Evolution preceded Darwin too. He just figured a theory about it.

Peerie Maa
02-15-2014, 05:26 PM
I might add that I do have a B.S. degree in a field of biology, and I didn't take any course in Darwin's theory of Evolution. It was mentioned mainly in history classes, as a clash between the broad idea of scientific method vs. fundamentalist religion. I don't think it was even taught as a course. I am reading a book on the medical science now, and one of the interesting thoughts was that medicine schools in the U.S. did not require any science or college about the time of Darwin. The introduction of scientific methodology into medicine was quite late, at least in the U.S.. Fundamentals of chemistry were the primary study when it did happen. Religious objections to things like autopsies seem to have been far more important than the resistance to the theory of evolution.

Darwin was a single step in a journey. It is better to discuss teaching all of evolution, rather than just Darwin's work. The advances that I posted all stem from an understanding of the theory, allied to an hell of a lot of technologies and techniques. But without Darwin setting us moving along the path, we would not even know where to look.

bogdog
02-15-2014, 05:31 PM
Some good points on the practical application of evolution theory. But religion has been coming to terms with science through uneasy truce for hundreds of years, finding clever ways to both endorse the aspects of science that do not overtly challenge it while denying science that does directly confront religion at the same time. No reason it won't continue to do so. Science could do itself a favour by not positioning itself as being right. Scientific knowledge is always truncated and provisional and it could benefit by being humble enough to admit it more often and openly. Science could promote itself as a rational methodology with a proven though imperfect track record allowing religion room to save face. This escalating push/push-back between science and religion isn't going to solve anything.Religion started it!

Paul Pless
02-15-2014, 06:16 PM
Is there any practical application of the theory of evolution?practical applications? we serve up the mother of all nazi threads. . .

David G
02-15-2014, 06:57 PM
Yup... this thread also qualifies for this poster:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1620856_753386521341313_594134153_n.jpg

Willin'
02-15-2014, 06:59 PM
Have a care, one should be careful opting out of gravity. Included in that subscription is opting out of the weak and strong nuclear forces and possibly Reader's Digest. These things could have unforeseen consequences.

seanz
02-15-2014, 07:16 PM
Gravity is more variable than most people appreciate. If I could opt out I would but I'd require a more reliable alternative first.

Shang
02-15-2014, 08:22 PM
Easy for you guys to poke fun at these gap-toothed morons,
YOU don't live in Missouri... but I do, and these are my neighbors:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0Qznoa5fenA/T_s9Rn-pNlI/AAAAAAAACPo/5mIbzZB5SNc/s640/hillbillies-1.gif

Unfortunately they breed, and some of them vote, and they elect snake oil grifters to public office. As a result laws are passed and money is spent fostering ignorance. But remember, the barbed wire border fences sometimes go down and these people get out--perhaps to a state near you.

Lew Barrett
02-15-2014, 08:34 PM
Is there any practical application of the theory of evolution?


Most doctors I know work only on humans. And most veterinarians work only on one species at a time. I do not know any doctors or veterinarians who are actively practicing evolution .... as in trying to turn one species into another.

(The exception to this, I think would be those studying the spread and mutations of pathogens. The development of drug resistance in bacteria is an expression of evolution.)

So you're sorta correct in suggesting that evolution is not relevant to modern medicine..... but you miss the point that all of modern medicine and all of evolution are built on the same scientific basis. They may not be actively practicing evolution, but they are using its tools and knowledge and techniques to practice medicine.

It's kinda like saying, "No doctor has ever needed to divide 14787644 by 1297423.1" This may be true, but every doctor needs to know it's possible and how to go about doing it.


Mendel's work was unknown to Darwin, but it helps fill in the blanks. Loosely speaking, when combining the concepts, you come up with a paradigm that offers a myriad of applications.

GregH
02-15-2014, 10:06 PM
He's also one of "one out of four" Americans who don't know that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

Jim Bow
02-15-2014, 10:37 PM
A good question. For example, without Relativity Theory GPS wouldn't work. Without Quantum Theory dozens of other commonplace technologies wouldn't be possible.

Not "wouldn't work". A clearer statement would be "would never have been developed." The theories led to the development of commonplace technologies.

Ian McColgin
02-15-2014, 10:42 PM
Shang, you're baaaad.

The picture does help establish that the evolutionary track is not simply up.

bobbys
02-15-2014, 11:59 PM
Easy for you guys to poke fun at these gap-toothed morons,
YOU don't live in Missouri... but I do, and these are my neighbors:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0Qznoa5fenA/T_s9Rn-pNlI/AAAAAAAACPo/5mIbzZB5SNc/s640/hillbillies-1.gif

Unfortunately they breed, and some of them vote, and they elect snake oil grifters to public office. As a result laws are passed and money is spent fostering ignorance. But remember, the barbed wire border fences sometimes go down and these people get out--perhaps to a state near you.
.

It has to be a terrible cross to bear to be so much smarter then the people you live amongst..

bobbys
02-16-2014, 12:05 AM
Shang, you're baaaad.

The picture does help establish that the evolutionary track is not simply up..

That's the way all New England snobs view anyone south of Hackensack..

It's a good thing we have good new England stock to keep the bloodline pure..

It must have been horrid to have to view this picture in your study, why I bet you almost dropped your pipe .

bobbys
02-16-2014, 12:06 AM
Gravity is more variable than most people appreciate. If I could opt out I would but I'd require a more reliable alternative first..

What would you know about gravity living in a upside down country where the toilets flow backwards?

David G
02-16-2014, 12:31 AM
.

It has to be a terrible cross to bear to be so much smarter then the people you live amongst..

I have to say... bbbbbbys shows a remarkable, and laudable, amount of empathy about something he'll never experience firsthand. Kudos, I say!

bobbys
02-16-2014, 01:03 AM
Hollywood star also supports opting out of gravity.

http://us.cdn291.fansshare.com/photo/sofiavergara/sofia-vergara-at-th-primetime-emmy-awards-in-los-angeles-emmys-382379655.jpg.




.



I have studied this in a scientific manner for a few hours now and have not reached a conclusion yet.

seanz
02-16-2014, 01:24 AM
.

It has to be a terrible cross to bear to be so much smarter then the people you live amongst..

That's why they nailed up Jesus.


.

What would you know about gravity living in a upside down country where the toilets flow backwards?

Toilets here work just fine. What do they do where you live?

BrianW
02-16-2014, 02:56 AM
.

It has to be a terrible cross to bear to be so much smarter then the people you live amongst..

Maybe that's why Shang lives in their neighborhood? It makes him the smart one.

When all the tools in the shed are dull, a half-sharp edge gets picked everytime.

:D

(Sorry Shang, ya set yourself up for that one. ;) )

bobbys
02-16-2014, 03:19 AM
That's why they nailed up Jesus.



Toilets here work just fine. What do they do where you live?
.

They seem to crack every time I work on them.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
02-16-2014, 03:51 AM
Do you need to have your centre of gravity surgically removed.

Shang
02-16-2014, 10:11 AM
Maybe that's why Shang lives in their neighborhood? It makes him the smart one.

When all the tools in the shed are dull, a half-sharp edge gets picked everytime.

:D

(Sorry Shang, ya set yourself up for that one. ;) )

Oh golly, Brian, you foun' me out.
I wuz gonna move to some place where dumb wouldn' be noticed...Northwest Oregon.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0voaqc45R1qbxo6jo1_500.jpg

bobbys
02-16-2014, 10:52 AM
oh golly, brian, you foun' me out.
I wuz gonna move to some place where dumb wouldn' be noticed...northwest oregon.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0voaqc45r1qbxo6jo1_500.jpg
.


Lol!

Michael D. Storey
02-16-2014, 10:55 AM
I like this line. He admits that religion was 'pulled out of the air', tho some might say it was pulled from elsewhere. He likely doesn't even realize that is what he said. Still, this means that religion should have no right to expect to trump _anything_, esp science.

enjoy
bobby

Yeah sure, there you go, providing a rational response to an illogical, irrational statement. Where you goin with this?

Shang
02-16-2014, 11:39 AM
.

That's the way all New England snobs view anyone south of Hackensack..

It's a good thing we have good new England stock to keep the bloodline pure..

It must have been horrid to have to view this picture in your study, why I bet you almost dropped your pipe .

Since you Northwest Oregon guys are good sports I'll make a confession:
I was born in Missouri.
Growed up in Kansas. Lived twenty-five years back east while qualifying for three post-graduate degrees from a New England university.
Now, back in Missouri, it does make me sad when I see ignorant midwestern knuckle-draggers voting against their own best interests

Gerarddm
02-16-2014, 11:50 AM
A benign hegemon would prohibit them breeding.

Dan McCosh
02-16-2014, 12:02 PM
practical applications? we serve up the mother of all nazi threads. . . An obvious problem with the application of the theory.

Shang
02-16-2014, 12:33 PM
A benign hegemon would prohibit them breeding.

Naugh, most of the guys don't even know how to put one of them thangs on.

Durnik
02-16-2014, 12:34 PM
Yeah sure, there you go, providing a rational response to an illogical, irrational statement. Where you goin with this?

Hell in a hand basket? ;-)





...

..it does make me sad when I see ignorant midwestern knuckle-draggers voting against their own best interests

& as if that weren't bad enough, they're voting against _our_ best interests.. If they want to suffer, fine - but to hurt others is wrong.

& hurt others is most assuredly their aim.

peace
bobby

oznabrag
02-16-2014, 01:20 PM
Hell in a hand basket? ;-)...

peace
bobby

I have often thought this would be the perfect name for a store dealing in sundry, frou-frou knick-knicks and located in a big town on US 49 in extreme East Arkansas.














I can see it now: Helena Handbasket.

Shang
02-16-2014, 01:26 PM
...hurt others is most assuredly their aim.

peace
bobby

Naugh, when them boys aim, a raccoon usually hits the dirt.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YLDA5KPzYA4/SwoDzPNBx9I/AAAAAAAAB0U/Sy8qswyePTQ/s1600/Coon+Hunters+1+-+Unknown,+Dewey+Johnson+%28Small%29.jpg

Durnik
02-16-2014, 01:37 PM
^ouch! Double entendre intended?

peace
bobby

pefjr
02-16-2014, 03:34 PM
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/02/14/1277641/-Missouri-lawmaker-introduces-bill-allowing-familes-to-opt-out-of-learning-evolution?#"just as much pulled out of the air as, say, any religion" Ha....obviously Bratten doesn't appreciate a good Hoax when he sees one!

Shang
02-16-2014, 03:59 PM
^ouch! Double entendre intended?

peace
bobby

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-m3nQb7c7fP0/UpQCnXqhHtI/AAAAAAACPOs/LjUqzwaHF0Y/s1600/02_bobbycoonssurprise_harrisoncady_1942.jpg

Lew Barrett
02-16-2014, 04:28 PM
I have to say... bbbbbbys shows a remarkable, and laudable, amount of empathy about something he'll never experience firsthand. Kudos, I say!


http://us.cdn291.fansshare.com/photo/sofiavergara/sofia-vergara-at-th-primetime-emmy-awards-in-los-angeles-emmys-382379655.jpg

I have however discovered a bare he'd surely like to cross! (and who wouldn't?)

Sam F
02-16-2014, 05:23 PM
Is there any practical application of the theory of evolution?

There isn't one.
The "vaccine" utility is merely a slight of hand trick. A long time ago I challenged to Evolutionistas here to demonstrate a definite prediction using Evolution. Such as: predict in advance what gene will mutate (a hand thing for vaccines) or what a species will evolve into. No one could do it - thus leaving Evolution for all practical purposes useless. That's a mighty poor accomplishment to rack up since the 1850's. In contrast, a hard science like physics can predict how and where an object will fall or predict where a space craft will go into orbit around Mars with excellent precision.

Sam F
02-16-2014, 05:25 PM
Easy for you guys to poke fun at these gap-toothed morons,
YOU don't live in Missouri... but I do, and these are my neighbors:


Unfortunately they breed, and some of them...

Breeding successfully is Evolution. If you haven't done so in greater numbers than they, you lose and they win.

Peerie Maa
02-16-2014, 05:26 PM
There isn't one.
The "vaccine" utility is merely a slight of hand trick. A long time ago I challenged to Evolutionistas here to demonstrate a definite prediction using Evolution. Such as: predict in advance what gene will mutate (a hand thing for vaccines) or what a species will evolve into. No one could do it - thus leaving Evolution for all practical purposes useless. That's a mighty poor accomplishment to rack up since the 1850's. In contrast, a hard science like physics can predict how and where an object will fall or predict where a space craft will go into orbit around Mars with excellent precision.

Looks as though Sam still has me on ignore. :D

Perhaps some one will repost the info in #21 so that Sam can read it?

pefjr
02-16-2014, 05:42 PM
There isn't one.
The "vaccine" utility is merely a slight of hand trick. A long time ago I challenged to Evolutionistas here to demonstrate a definite prediction using Evolution. Such as: predict in advance what gene will mutate (a hand thing for vaccines) or what a species will evolve into. No one could do it - thus leaving Evolution for all practical purposes useless. That's a mighty poor accomplishment to rack up since the 1850's. In contrast, a hard science like physics can predict how and where an object will fall or predict where a space craft will go into orbit around Mars with excellent precision.Those that do not see evolution are doomed to repeat it. Course as anyone can see, evolution does not have to be progress,:ycool: it can spins it's wheels, or even go in any direction, such as the dead ends evidenced in the shame-anism of the RCC.

JimD
02-16-2014, 07:01 PM
Funniest thing about this thread is that gravity turns out to be the biggest stumbling block for a unified theory of physics and our most comprehensive theory, the so called Standard Model of particle physics does indeed do away with gravity, at least in the sense that gravity is not included in it. Some model. So much for science, etc etc...;)

Ian McColgin
02-16-2014, 07:09 PM
As SamF knows, the classical understanding of genetic change is that the change is random. Some changes will enhance the species survival and become more common in the population. Some will lead to distinct disadvantages and those will fail, sometimes only a subtype of a species and sometimes a whole species. Most are probably either neutral or unimportant enough to see a population effect in a few thousand generations. But the point is, we do not know what causes a particular mutation and so far as we can see the change at that level is random. Once the change is going, survival is not random but it may be so complex that we cannot tell anything about a single change in a complex organism.

Take humans. Red hair is going out. Will that hurt our species long term? I don't have a clue and I can't predict it at all.

purri
02-16-2014, 09:34 PM
"State Representative" eh...:d

Durnik
02-16-2014, 11:18 PM
^I know. Makes a fellow right proud to be 'murican, eh?

Yeah, right. Somebody wake me from this nightmare!



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-m3nQb7c7fP0/UpQCnXqhHtI/AAAAAAACPOs/LjUqzwaHF0Y/s1600/02_bobbycoonssurprise_harrisoncady_1942.jpg

Well who would a thunk. I'm (in?)famous! ;-)

enjoy
bobby

Sam F
02-17-2014, 07:48 AM
Those that do not see evolution are doomed to repeat it...

You don't have the slightest idea of what Evolution is, do you?

Sam F
02-17-2014, 07:51 AM
As SamF knows, the classical understanding of genetic change is that the change is random. Some changes will enhance the species survival and become more common in the population. Some will lead to distinct disadvantages and those will fail, sometimes only a subtype of a species and sometimes a whole species. Most are probably either neutral or unimportant enough to see a population effect in a few thousand generations. But the point is, we do not know what causes a particular mutation...

And thus Evolution can make no predictions at all - making it utterly useless.



...and so far as we can see the change at that level is random. Once the change is going, survival is not random but it may be so complex that we cannot tell anything about a single change in a complex organism.

Doesn't add up Ian. A randomly generated change causing non-random changes is still random

Ian McColgin
02-17-2014, 08:03 AM
Adds up perfectly well, SamF, as you'd know if you bred plants or animals. You can make selective breeding an element of survival at least for the part of the population you control. It's not always perfect, as we see in race horses where the genes that apparantly contribute short burst speed are associated with the genes that contribute to weaker leg bones. Evolutionary theories have different contexts. Some biologists are looking at gene change. Others are looking at species change in a specific environment. Just as there is not one correct theory of gravitation - you knew that I should hope - so also there is not a sacred canon making "Darwin's evolution" (whatever that actually was) holy writ. Not to put too fine a point on it, evolutionary theories evolve as their proponants must answer to the physical universe as uncovered by experiment and observation, not to a text or divine revelation as passed along by dogma.

SamF, so long as you treat the matter of evolution as a textual matter like scripture rather than as a set of corrigible scientific theories, you will continue fabricating nonsense to no point except your propaganda.

Paul Pless
02-17-2014, 08:04 AM
And thus Evolution can make no predictions at all - making it utterly useless.understanding science and nature is useless?

Keith Wilson
02-17-2014, 08:05 AM
A randomly generated change causing non-random changes is still random. 'You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.'

Evolution is the central idea that allows one to understand living organisms. Calling it 'useless' because it doesn't allow simple predictions is very, very silly, Accurate knowledge of the the principles by which the physical world works is never useless. And even if it were useless, it's still true.

http://assets1.bigthink.com/system/idea_thumbnails/54315/headline/Galileo_Galilei_head.jpg?1392158431

Ian McColgin
02-17-2014, 08:08 AM
By the way, SamF probably does know that whether a random change then positions a being in a better or worse position for a specific environment is a different step and is quite obviously not random. The mutation may be random, or not if we're looking at a GMO. The complex factors that set up the environment may be random, or not if for example the environment is a farm. But once you have those matters set, thriving or failing is not random, it's conditional.

TomF
02-17-2014, 09:07 AM
And thus Evolution can make no predictions at all - making it utterly useless.Au contraire.

One can predict that in the presence of a moderately unfriendly environment for a bacteria species, weaker strains will die ... and more resistant strains will survive and fill the available niche. Given that random mutation occurs over time, one can predict that if the characteristics of the unfriendly environment are stable in the long-term, the mutations which provide some incremental amount of greater resistance will prosper, displacing even those best adapted previously.

Evolution will not predict which mutation will happen, or how the mutation may help the bacterium cope with the unfriendly environment, but it will predict the direction of the population's development.

In a small scale, I've got something similar going on in a naturally fermented sauerkraut perfuming our kitchen. We've gone through several distinct species of lacto-bacillus bacteria by now, each better adapted to the increasingly acid environment which ultimately killed the predecessor species. Were I to follow this over a number of years, it's just possible that random mutation could lead to the prospering of an entirely new bacterium species. What is unlikely, though, is that random mutation would lead to a big population of an alkaline-loving bacterium in my sauerkraut.

Keith Wilson
02-17-2014, 09:54 AM
And, of course, the factors that cause 'random' mutations are actually no more random than any other operation of physical laws. They're very, very complicated, certainly, and we don't know anywhere near enough to predict them, but they follow the laws of chemistry and physics just like everything else.

Ian McColgin
02-17-2014, 10:06 AM
Keith is correct. That's why when being fully accurate I use a term like "appears random." Also, even though the field of quantum mechanics is changing we understand that events that fit our statistical understanding of random can still lead to predictable, deterministic appearing results. As Heisenberg pointed out, the electron is utterly free but the mass knows its necessity.

But SamF will never get anywhere with any of this so long as he treats knowledge as a text. Given that the Roman Catholic Church position is ever so much better articulated than SamF's partial snippets, I realize that he's simply a troll having fun, not an evolved soul seeking truth. Which is ok. Fun is more attainable than truth so why not go for what you can get?

JimD
02-17-2014, 10:17 AM
... they follow the laws of chemistry and physics just like everything else.
Are we about to do away with the fiction of free will while we're at it?

Keith Wilson
02-17-2014, 10:21 AM
Are we about to do away with the fiction of free will while we're at it?Too deep for me. I refer you to Daniel Dennett: Elbow room; On the Varieties of Free Will Worth Wanting. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbow_Room_(book))


Fun is more attainable than truth so why not go for what you can get?That's a very kind interpretation. I think I'll take that attitude; better for my health. Y>

Sam F
02-17-2014, 10:42 AM
Adds up perfectly well, SamF, as you'd know if you bred plants or animals....

If any person bred plants and animals it is Intelligent Design.
Sorry Ian, that's exactly the WRONG EXAMPLE!


You can make selective breeding an element of survival at least for the part of the population you control.

That's Intelligent Design. Again. What's up with Darwinists who can't manage an example that isn't Intelligent Design????


Evolutionary theories have different contexts. Some biologists are looking at gene change. Others are looking at species change in a specific environment.

So? Kindly predict what a given gene will mutate into.


- so also there is not a sacred canon making "Darwin's evolution" (whatever that actually was) holy writ.

No problem. Pick one. Heck pick 'em all and predict something useful with it/them... like what's the next variant of the flu going to be.


SamF, so long as you treat the matter of evolution as a textual matter like scripture rather than as a set of corrigible scientific theories, you will continue fabricating nonsense to no point except your propaganda.

That's projection Ian. I make a simple scientific request. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "propaganda".
Just answer the objection please.

CK 17
02-17-2014, 10:42 AM
Speaking of Darwin. . . . Darwin Award maybe?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/16/us/snake-salvation-pastor-bite/

JimD
02-17-2014, 10:44 AM
Hi Keith, I'm not a fan of Dennett. I've tried reading him before. He's especially good at spinning words to bolster the weakest of arguments. The question of free will is one of my favourites. I've looked high and low for a defense of free will that holds up to scrutiny and have yet to find one. The only ones that even make percursory sense are the ones that define freedom and/or willfulness in ways that clearly are not free. It would seem free will is a concept of the human imagination that has no place in actual existence operating in the universe. Its hard to end up anywhere else if we follow the dots. Newtonian physics left no room for it for hundreds of years and Quantum Theory has done nothing to change things since obviously even if randomness is real, which is not provable, random is not willful. The universe and everything in it including us starts to look more like one big knee jerk than a world where free thinking beings can make their own fate.

Sam F
02-17-2014, 10:45 AM
"When all is said and done, only fools have fun" Memphis Slim

Sam F
02-17-2014, 10:46 AM
Speaking of Darwin. . . . Darwin Award maybe?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/16/us/snake-salvation-pastor-bite/

Well deserved.

Sam F
02-17-2014, 10:48 AM
A benign hegemon would prohibit them breeding.

Oh that would be Margret Sanger, founderess of Planned Parenthood. Great stuff if you love eugenics.

Rick-Mi
02-17-2014, 10:56 AM
Looks like the intellectual Bruce Lee has just jumped back into the bilge.......

Keith Wilson
02-17-2014, 11:02 AM
Bruce Lee has been dead for 40 years. Sam's arguments have been dead for longer than that.

pefjr
02-17-2014, 11:15 AM
You don't have the slightest idea of what Evolution is, do you?I know perfectly well where it has been, but not much about where it is going. I am only a single generation, a single brick in the wall. So what, that one can't predict where some evolution will go next, that kills the theory? You are forgetting all the facts that support evolution. Utterly useless? I guess the 2000 yrs. of hearsay miracles is useful?
Doesn't add up Ian You don't know a thing about Math do you?:D Let us pray, Sam ..... Our Father , who art .....yadda yadda! Now that is useful. Can you predict an answer, Sam?

Rick-Mi
02-17-2014, 11:22 AM
The intellectual Bruce Lee cuts the knees off neo-Bolsheviks faster than they can post pictures of their grand kids and then say sea turtles are of higher value than children.

jonboy
02-17-2014, 11:23 AM
"Since you Northwest Oregon guys are good sports I'll make a confession:
I was born in Missouri.
Growed up in Kansas. Lived twenty-five years back east while qualifying for three post-graduate degrees from a New England university.
Now, back in Missouri, it does make me sad when I see ignorant midwestern knuckle-draggers voting against their own best interests"


you've got three post graduate degrees and still say you ' growed up' well they do say educational standards are slipping...

TomF
02-17-2014, 11:39 AM
The intellectual Bruce Lee cuts the knees off neo-Bolsheviks faster than they can post pictures of their grand kids and then say sea turtles are of higher value than children.Neo-Bolsheviks? Yowza! Find me one - they're endangered. :D (Is your washroom breeding them, Rick?)

Osborne Russell
02-17-2014, 11:42 AM
Au contraire.

Indeed.

You can predict to a high degree of probability that mutation will occur. It's a property of matter.

You can be certain that changes in the environment will occur.

You can predict to a high degree of probability that the survival of mutations will be governed by changes in the environment.

The phenomenae and the interaction between them two is complex, but that means the reason the outcome is unpredictable is because of insufficient knowledge, not that it's unknowable.

The pseudo-controversy is another run-through of the assertion that all knowledge that isn't absolute, isn't knowledge.

Keith Wilson
02-17-2014, 11:50 AM
:d:d

http://besser.tsoa.nyu.edu/T-Shirts/rbkemp/bol.jpg

TomF
02-17-2014, 11:51 AM
:d:d

http://besser.tsoa.nyu.edu/T-Shirts/rbkemp/bol.jpgFramed, and on my washroom wall as a Sober Reminder.

PhaseLockedLoop
02-17-2014, 11:54 AM
'You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.'


Funny!

pefjr
02-17-2014, 11:55 AM
You can predict to a high degree of probability that mutation will occur. It's a property of matter.

You can be certain that changes in the environment will occur.

You can predict to a high degree of probability that the survival of mutations will be governed by changes in the environment.

The phenomenae and the interaction between them two is complex, but that means the reason the outcome is unpredictable is because of insufficient knowledge, not that it's unknowable.

The pseudo-controversy is another run-through of the assertion that all knowledge that isn't absolute, isn't knowledge.Excellent to Outstanding, concise and complete. I knew you had potential.

Sam F
02-17-2014, 12:20 PM
...the reason the outcome is unpredictable is because of insufficient knowledge, not that it's unknowable...

That's as nice a faith-based reason as I have ever heard.
But I suggest you contemplate the meaning of random:

1. Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See Synonyms at chance...
1. lacking any definite plan or prearranged order; haphazard
2. (Statistics) statistics
a. having a value which cannot be determined but only described probabilistically...

Sam F
02-17-2014, 12:22 PM
... Sam's arguments have been dead for longer than that.

Still waiting for you (or anybody) to make a useful prediction using Evolution.
Go ahead. Do it.
Until that happens, my argument is not even close to dead. :D

Sam F
02-17-2014, 12:24 PM
The intellectual Bruce Lee cuts the knees off neo-Bolsheviks faster than they can post pictures of their grand kids and then say sea turtles are of higher value than children.

Very funny!
Don't forget those little fish that are more important than jobs or food for humans. I think I smelt something fishy 'bout that. ;)

Sam F
02-17-2014, 12:26 PM
Welcome back, Sam.... did someone ring a bell for you when a bilge topic drifted into 'evolution'? :)


Nope. And don't worry, I know I'm not welcome.
No surprise there. Neo-Bolsheviks never welcome different points of view or inconvenient data points either. :D

bobbys
02-17-2014, 12:33 PM
:d:d

http://besser.tsoa.nyu.edu/T-Shirts/rbkemp/bol.jpg
.
MAHER: But what do you think about this? Now, I'm so glad that you exist (referring to one of his guests, national security writer Jeremy Scahill) and Glenn Greenwald and Snowden, all these people, Bradley Manning, they've done a service. They're also, very often, a little nuts. Uh, when Wiki- ...


SCAHILL (realizing he's been insulted): Wait, you're calling me nuts?


MAHER (backpedaling): Not you, not you ...


SCAHILL: You just said ...


MAHER: ... you are not nuts ...


SCAHILL: All right.


MAHER: ... but when, I've been watching Putin this week (and this somehow explains why I just insulted you; audience dutifully laughs) so, you know, you know. But listen, when he took Snowden in, WikiLeaks tweeted, 'WikiLeaks has assisted Mr. Snowden in gaining political asylum in a democratic country.' Really?! A democratic country? And Snowden tweeted, 'Russia has my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations.' Yeah, if anybody deserves a clap on the back (sarcastically; polite laughter from audience), I mean, for that it's Russia. And, you know ...


SCAHILL: Russia is one of the most atrocious human-rights violating governments on the planet, uh ...


MAHER (interrupting, eager to share a keen insight): I know, it reminds me of the 1930s when the liberals all thought Stalin was a great guy. (Pin-drop silence from audience)

Shang
02-17-2014, 12:44 PM
"Since you Northwest Oregon guys are good sports I'll make a confession:
I was born in Missouri.
Growed up in Kansas. Lived twenty-five years back east while qualifying for three post-graduate degrees from a New England university.
Now, back in Missouri, it does make me sad when I see ignorant midwestern knuckle-draggers voting against their own best interests"


you've got three post graduate degrees and still say you ' growed up' well they do say educational standards are slipping...

I'm bilingual.

How are you coming with that readin'n'writin' thang of yours, Jonboy?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Richard_Thomas_John-Boy_Walton_1973.JPG

jonboy
02-17-2014, 02:09 PM
awright thanks..g'night granpaw

PhaseLockedLoop
02-17-2014, 02:14 PM
Gee whillikers! Wow! Holy c*ap! Whoof! My stars!

Ian McColgin
02-17-2014, 03:00 PM
I love the poster Keith put up at #93. Used to be a copy in the head to the right of the fireplace in the Black Dog and Mother Jones used to advertise the sourse. Not seen it for years and now I can't find one. It's great.

Peerie Maa
02-17-2014, 03:17 PM
As SamF knows, the classical understanding of genetic change is that the change is random. Some changes will enhance the species survival and become more common in the population. Some will lead to distinct disadvantages and those will fail, sometimes only a subtype of a species and sometimes a whole species. Most are probably either neutral or unimportant enough to see a population effect in a few thousand generations. But the point is, we do not know what causes a particular mutation and so far as we can see the change at that level is random. Once the change is going, survival is not random but it may be so complex that we cannot tell anything about a single change in a complex organism.

Take humans. Red hair is going out. Will that hurt our species long term? I don't have a clue and I can't predict it at all.

So, are none of these the result of predicting outcomes?

1. •Bioinformatics, a multi-billion-dollar industry, consists largely of the comparison of genetic sequences. Descent with modification is one of its most basic assumptions.
2. •Diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture (Bull and Wichman 2001).
3. •Evolutionary theory is used to manage fisheries for greater yields (Conover and Munch 2002).
4. •Artificial selection has been used since prehistory, but it has become much more efficient with the addition of quantitative trait locus mapping.
5. •Knowledge of the evolution of parasite virulence in human populations can help guide public health policy (Galvani 2003).
6. •Sex allocation theory, based on evolution theory, was used to predict conditions under which the highly endangered kakapo bird would produce more female offspring, which retrieved it from the brink of extinction (Sutherland 2002).
7. •Tracing genes of known function and comparing how they are related to unknown genes helps one to predict unknown gene function, which is foundational for drug discovery (Branca 2002; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).
8. •Phylogenetic analysis is a standard part of epidemiology, since it allows the identification of disease reservoirs and sometimes the tracking of step-by-step transmission of disease. For example, phylogenetic analysis confirmed that a Florida dentist was infecting his patients with HIV, that HIV-1 and HIV-2 were transmitted to humans from chimpanzees and mangabey monkeys in the twentieth century, and, when polio was being eradicated from the Americas, that new cases were not coming from hidden reservoirs (Bull and Wichman 2001). It was used in 2002 to help convict a man of intentionally infecting someone with HIV (Vogel 1998). The same principle can be used to trace the source of bioweapons (Cummings and Relman 2002).
9. •Phylogenetic analysis to track the diversity of a pathogen can be used to select an appropriate vaccine for a particular region (Gaschen et al. 2002).
10. •Ribotyping is a technique for identifying an organism or at least finding its closest known relative by mapping its ribosomal RNA onto the tree of life. It can be used even when the organisms cannot be cultured or recognized by other methods. Ribotyping and other genotyping methods have been used to find previously unknown infectious agents of human disease (Bull and Wichman 2001; Relman 1999).
11. •Phylogenetic analysis helps in determining protein folds, since proteins diverging from a common ancestor tend to conserve their folds (Benner 2001).

Directed evolution allows the "breeding" of molecules or molecular pathways to create or enhance products, including:
12. •enzymes (Arnold 2001)
13. •pigments (Arnold 2001)
14. •antibiotics
15. •flavors
16. •biopolymers
17. •bacterial strains to decompose hazardous materials.
18. Directed evolution can also be used to study the folding and function of natural enzymes (Taylor et al. 2001).

It looks as though much of the above was taken from here; http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA215.html


Sometins I think that I have evolved invisibility :)

TomF
02-17-2014, 03:23 PM
There are Neo-Bolsheviks here?

Coulda fooled me! :):)We've evolved. Used to be merely pro-aborts and eugenicists.