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Rum_Pirate
02-13-2014, 12:12 PM
Not worthy of discussion here?


Juan Carlos Chavez, Killer of Jimmy Ryce, Executed at Florida State Prison

Man who abducted, raped and murdered 9-year-old Miami-Dade boy died by lethal injection Wednesday night

By Ari Odzer (http://www.nbcmiami.com/results/?keywords=%22Ari+Odzer%22&byline=y&sort=date), Edward B. Colby (http://www.nbcmiami.com/results/?keywords=%22Edward+B.+Colby%22&byline=y&sort=date), Hank Tester (http://www.nbcmiami.com/results/?keywords=%22Hank+Tester%22&byline=y&sort=date), Brian Hamacher (http://www.nbcmiami.com/results/?keywords=%22Brian+Hamacher%22&byline=y&sort=date) and Tamara Lush (http://www.nbcmiami.com/results/?keywords=%22Tamara+Lush%22&byline=y&sort=date)

| Thursday, Feb 13, 2014 | Updated 1:13 AM EST

Juan Carlos Chavez was executed Wednesday night in Florida for the rape and murder of 9-year-old Jimmy Ryce in Miami-Dade County in 1995. NBC 6ís Ari Odzer, who has covered the story since that year, reports on Chavezís execution.


A man was executed Wednesday night in Florida for the rape and murder of a 9-year-old boy in Miami-Dade County in 1995.
Juan Carlos Chavez, 46, was pronounced dead at 8:17 p.m. after a lethal injection at Florida State Prison in Starke, according to Gov. Rick Scott's office.
He was sentenced to death in 1998 in the gruesome murder of Jimmy Ryce (http://www.nbcmiami.com/results/?keywords=%22jimmy+ryce%22).
ď19 years ago, Juan Carlos Chavez was faced with a choice. He had kidnapped my son, Jimmy," Don Ryce told reporters outside the prison following the execution. "He had sexually assaulted him, and now it was time to decide would he let him live, or would he take his life? We know what he decided to do and the choice he made, and as a result of that choice he died today.Ē

PHOTOS AND VIDEOS



http://media.nbcmiami.com/images/324*182/WTVJ_000000011381834_1200x675_149643331674.jpg (http://www.nbcmiami.com/multimedia/Don-Ryce_-Juan-Carlos-Chavez-Died-Because-of-Choice-He-Made_Miami-245299581.html)
Don Ryce: Juan Carlos
Chavez Died Because... (http://www.nbcmiami.com/multimedia/Don-Ryce_-Juan-Carlos-Chavez-Died-Because-of-Choice-He-Made_Miami-245299581.html)





http://media.nbcmiami.com/images/324*182/WTVJ_000000011380579_1200x675_149481027586.jpg (http://www.nbcmiami.com/on-air/as-seen-on/Jimmy-Ryce-Killer-Juan-Carlos-Chavez-Set-to-Be-Executed_Miami-245281701.html)
Jimmy Ryce Killer Juan (http://www.nbcmiami.com/on-air/as-seen-on/Jimmy-Ryce-Killer-Juan-Carlos-Chavez-Set-to-Be-Executed_Miami-245281701.html)
Ryce, 70, witnessed the execution along with his son Ted, 37.

Jimmy's parents, Don and Claudine Ryce, turned the tragedy's pain into a push for stronger U.S. laws regarding confinement of sexual predators and improved police procedures in missing child cases. Their foundation provided hundreds of free canines to law enforcement agencies to aid in searches for children.
Chavez made no final statement in the death chamber, but did submit a handwritten statement laced with religious references. He moved his feet frequently after the injection began at 8:02 p.m. but two minutes later stopped moving.
The U.S. Supreme Court denied Chavez's last-minute appeals Wednesday.
The court issued brief orders Wednesday night rejecting the appeals, which focused on a challenge to Florida's method of lethal injection. The execution had been delayed from the original 6 p.m. time because of the appeals.



Chavez requested rib eye steak, French fries, strawberry ice cream, Goya mango juice, hot sauce and a mix of bananas, mangos and papayas as his last meal, said Jessica Cary, director of communications for the Florida Department of Corrections. Cary said Chavez received no visitors prior to the execution aside from his spiritual adviser and that Chavez's demeanor was calm.
Chavez kidnapped Jimmy one block from his home in Redland on Sept. 11, 1995, ordering him at gunpoint into his truck. He drove him to his trailer, where he sexually battered him and held him captive for more than three and a half hours before he shot and killed the boy when he tried to escape.


Detective and Prosecutor Look Back at Jimmy Ryce Tragedy (http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/On-Eve-of-Juan-Carlos-Chavezs-Execution-Former-Detective-and-Prosecutor-Remember-Jimmy-Ryce-Tragedy-245083221.html)

Two days after the murder, Chavez dismembered the boy's body, filled three planters with his remains and sealed the planters with concrete. Jimmy's remains were found three months later near the home of Chavez, who confessed to the killing.
He was was convicted of first-degree murder, sexual battery on a person less than 12 years old and armed kidnapping in 1998.
Jimmy's parents were fixtures on television in the weeks after he disappeared, and for years, the couple worked tirelessly to raise awareness about sexual predators and to pass laws to make children safer. Claudine Ryce died in 2009.
The case horrified the state and led to the passage of the Jimmy Ryce Act, which allows authorities to commit dangerous sexual predators to mental institutions once they have completed their prison terms. The law would not have stopped Chavez, however, as he had no previous record for sex crimes.
"If there was ever anyone in the world who deserved to die itís the man who did that," Don Ryce said last month, speaking after the governor signed the death warrant for Chavez.
Chavez's most recent round of state and federal court appeals focused on claims that Florida's lethal injection procedure is unconstitutional, that he didn't get due process during clemency hearings and that he should have an execution stay to pursue additional appeals in the federal courts.
The Florida Supreme Court, however, refused Wednesday morning to stay the execution to allow Chavez time to pursue those challenges.
Chavez's only visitor Wednesday was his spiritual adviser, prison officials said.
In his written statement, Chavez said he had found forgiveness in religion and was not afraid of death. He said he wished for "unfailing love be upon us, upon me, upon those who today take the life out of this body, as well as those who in their blindness or in their pain desire my death. God bless us all."
Read his last statement below:

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/images/Juan-Carlos-Chavez-last-statement.jpg

Meanwhile, the Archdiocese of Miami held a prayer vigil for Chavez, Jimmy and the Ryce family earlier in the day.
The vigil took place following the 11:45 a.m. daily Mass at Sr. Martha Church at 9301 Biscayne Blvd. in Miami.
"People look at these vigils and say 'oh, in some way you are holding up the criminal,' that's not what we are doing, we are saying that human dignity will be diminished if we participate in this act," said Joan Crown, director of the Respect Life Ministry of the Archdiocese of Miami. "We pray for the repose of the soul of Jimmy Ryce and for the Ryce family whose grief can only be consoled by our merciful Lord."

Crown also said revenge isn't the answer.
"It's a very human thing to want revenge for this horrific crime but revenge is God's alone," she said. "Is this the most effective way to teach other people not to kill, by doing the very thing we are condemning?"
Don Ryce said Wednesday night that suspects who commit a crime against a child in future cases will face the same kind of choice that Chavez faced long ago.
"And when they do, when theyíre processing what they think they want to do, I hope that they will remember that it will be burned in their mind four words: Donít kill the child. Donít kill the child," Ryce said. "Because if you do, people will not forget, they will not forgive, we will hunt you down, and we will put you to death.Ē
Copyright Associated Press / NBC 6 South Florida
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Execution-of-Juan-Carlos-Chavez-Killer-of-Jimmy-Ryce-Scheduled-for-Wednesday-245177101.html

Paul Pless
02-13-2014, 12:14 PM
Not worthy of discussion here?yeah, why not? what do you want to discuss? justice or vengeance?

Ian McColgin
02-13-2014, 12:31 PM
Not much to discuss. It does not appear that there's any question of innocence and it was a horrific crime. If you believe that killing a person is the correct response to that person's crime, there's nothing wrong here. If you believe that all murder, including state administered murder, is wrong, then this execution was wrong.

Those of us who oppose capital punishment may well use saving innocent people from the death penalty as part of our argument but we need to also be prepared to oppose killing people who have committed monsterous acts whether they later find Jesus or not.

I don't agree with punishment as retribution. Even when there will be no release, I believe in incarceration that provides opportunities for the person to find some level of correction or redemption. I believe that incarceration with inhuman conditions, the notion that "death's too good" and life in brutal conditions is in any way right or even excusable, is utterly wrong. It's not only about an attitude of respect for a human life, no matter how depraved up to now. It's also a matter of society's respect for itself, respect for a higher value than petty vengence.

It's not even remotely about the crime victim's family's natural desire for retribution. They have their own process to go through and it is absolutely not helped by killing the bad guy. We have society as a whole act against the criminal rather than provide simply for private vengence for the simple reason that we are a community - when there's a crime all society has been harmed and if the punishment is nothing but personal vengence all society is harmed more. Blood gold was fine for the Vikings. We're beyond that.

Sky Blue
02-13-2014, 12:46 PM
^ +1

Rum_Pirate
02-13-2014, 12:58 PM
yeah, why not? what do you want to discuss? justice or vengeance?

The family say that justice has been done but that they will never have 'closure'.

"Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord".

What about death being an apt punishment? Or should is it a worse punishment to be locked up for the rest of his natural life?

There is also the question of the chemicals used that is the subject of much discussion/argument on other cases.
It would appear that he did not suffer but was successfully euthanised.

My view, he is now no longer a risk to the public (or prison warders) and no linger a cost to the public purse to keep him incarcerated.

pefjr
02-13-2014, 01:06 PM
hmmm..... they found the dose somewhere. I thought Doc GJ said there was no more of the hot juice available.

skuthorp
02-13-2014, 03:19 PM
"My view, he is now no longer a risk to the public (or prison warders) and no linger a cost to the public purse to keep him incarcerated."
Agreed.
As for "Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord", a trite cop out.

Rum_Pirate
02-13-2014, 03:46 PM
"My view, he is now no longer a risk to the public (or prison warders) and no linger a cost to the public purse to keep him incarcerated."
Agreed.
As for "Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord", a trite cop out. Not a cop out, I went with Justice.

pefjr
02-13-2014, 04:03 PM
Not much to discuss. It does not appear that there's any question of innocence and it was a horrific crime. If you believe that killing a person is the correct response to that person's crime, there's nothing wrong here. If you believe that all murder, including state administered murder, is wrong, then this execution was wrong.

Those of us who oppose capital punishment may well use saving innocent people from the death penalty as part of our argument but we need to also be prepared to oppose killing people who have committed monsterous acts whether they later find Jesus or not.

I don't agree with punishment as retribution. Even when there will be no release, I believe in incarceration that provides opportunities for the person to find some level of correction or redemption. I believe that incarceration with inhuman conditions, the notion that "death's too good" and life in brutal conditions is in any way right or even excusable, is utterly wrong. It's not only about an attitude of respect for a human life, no matter how depraved up to now. It's also a matter of society's respect for itself, respect for a higher value than petty vengence.

It's not even remotely about the crime victim's family's natural desire for retribution. They have their own process to go through and it is absolutely not helped by killing the bad guy. We have society as a whole act against the criminal rather than provide simply for private vengence for the simple reason that we are a community - when there's a crime all society has been harmed and if the punishment is nothing but personal vengence all society is harmed more. Blood gold was fine for the Vikings. We're beyond that.It has always interested me how quickly folks against the death penalty abandon the "majority rules". They have no respect for the majority. Maybe it should be the "Vocal minority rules".

Ian McColgin
02-13-2014, 05:58 PM
Thanks Bud. Two points.

The feds took the Boston Marathon Bomber case away from the state because in this state the majority opposes the death penalty. So how's that for respect of state's rights or the majority.

The more important point is that our system is built on protection against the tyranny of the majority, built on obliging minorities and majorities to compromise with each other. And the scum of society are the ones most in need of that protection. So you're right that even where the majority favors denying the vote to women or killing convicted murderers, I don't really care. Some issues should not be majority whim. Arguing about which things is, of course, an important dialectic in our society.

Sky Blue
02-13-2014, 06:01 PM
^ +1

skuthorp
02-13-2014, 06:05 PM
Not a cop out, I went with Justice.
Just for the record I have a fundamental problem with the term 'death penalty'. It's a left over from the days of public executions and the archaic concept of eternal damnation.
If you want to punish and at the same time ensure against a wrongful execution, jail them for 'the term of their natural life'.

Sky Blue
02-13-2014, 06:14 PM
The death penalty is implicit in our constitution in a fair reading of the due process clause. Still, our good conservative friends, ever watchful for unnecessary extensions of arbitrary governmental power, turn a blind eye when it comes to the death penalty.

Of course, law and order democrats don't mind either, as every time the issue of doing away with the practice comes before the voters in California, it fails.

Ian McColgin
02-13-2014, 06:40 PM
Assuming Sky Blue passed high school civics, he or she knows full well that if the Bill of Rights were subject to a plebocite it would fail. He or she may even know how often US citizens have refused to put their name on a copy of the Bill of Rights, believing it a subversive document, which in fact it is. Built into our system are protections against the tyranny of the majority. These checks against unfettered majority rule in all areas are so deep that an intransegent and unified minority can actually paralize the government in ways that have nothing to do with protecting civil rights. So what?

Phillip Allen
02-13-2014, 06:44 PM
not enough Zimmerman/Martin as grist for the GOT mill

Sky Blue
02-13-2014, 06:51 PM
Ian, I am not sure what you have read into my posts that have resulted in your outburst, as I wholeheartedly agree with everything you have written in this thread.

As to the "he or she" business, I would prefer to be genderless, thank you very much. "Sky Blue" will be fine.

Ian McColgin
02-13-2014, 06:57 PM
You know, Blue Sky, I was just rereading your posts and thinking that I'd read you massivly wrong. I apologize.

On this Forum I address folk as I know them, whatever name they may post under, but when it comes time for a pronoun, I'd rather not call you "it" and we've not the plethora of pronoun possibilities to match FaceBook's new sexual self-identification. Should I ever need a third person pronoun for you, I'll happily go with your stated preference, whatever it may be.

Again, sorry for rather badly misreading you. That aside, I though my sermon rather thoughtful . . . .

Sky Blue
02-13-2014, 07:20 PM
No apology is necessary, Ian. Your knowledge and erudition add a lot to a bit of downtime I am experiencing just now.

Thank you.


Matt

Concordia...41
02-13-2014, 07:26 PM
Just for the record I have a fundamental problem with the term 'death penalty'. It's a left over from the days of public executions and the archaic concept of eternal damnation.
If you want to punish and at the same time ensure against a wrongful execution, jail them for 'the term of their natural life'.

I disagree. The law in place in Florida, now and at the time of the murder allowed for the death penalty. If and when certain criteria are met upon conviction, the penalty is death.

Pretty darn clear.

.02

pefjr
02-13-2014, 08:38 PM
Thanks Bud. Two points.

The feds took the Boston Marathon Bomber case away from the state because in this state the majority opposes the death penalty. So how's that for respect of state's rights or the majority.

The more important point is that our system is built on protection against the tyranny of the majority, built on obliging minorities and majorities to compromise with each other. And the scum of society are the ones most in need of that protection. So you're right that even where the majority favors denying the vote to women or killing convicted murderers, I don't really care. Some issues should not be majority whim. Arguing about which things is, of course, an important dialectic in our society.You should be happy, they are footing the bill. As for execution, neva happen GI. the feds have a worse record than your state on execution. BTW I believe your state poll during Romney was about 65%
approve, this is what I mean by, "ignoring the clear majority". Why would you use the vote for women, almost a 100 yrs. ago?, when you could have used segregation and only trouble yourself for a 50 yrs. of time travel. I'm not buying that comparison anyway.

slug
02-14-2014, 02:04 AM
The death penalty is a farce. Jury members who object to the death penalty are excluded from the trial. The jury is then made up of blood thirty members of society. KILL KILL KILL.

Lew Barrett
02-14-2014, 02:27 AM
For the record, life in prison costs less all in than the proceedings and court costs that result in a death sentence. There's plenty of corroborating evidence, here's some. (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty)
So the notion that putting people to death saves money is out.

What's left? Life in prison is better and more comforting than a fast out for the perp? Depends on your point of view, but the idea of sending the rest of my miserable life in a 6X8 cell with the guards peeking in whenever it suits them does not appeal to me. I'd as soon get it over with and have always felt life in prison was the less desirable end.
The death sentence makes no sense.

goodbasil
02-14-2014, 02:43 AM
I have to agree with Lew. It costs more to kill them.

The way our justice system sees it: It is better to let 10 guilty free than to convict an innocent.

Mistakes have been made.

Rum_Pirate
02-14-2014, 08:54 AM
For the record, life in prison costs less all in than the proceedings and court costs that result in a death sentence. There's plenty of corroborating evidence, here's some. (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty)
So the notion that putting people to death saves money is out.

What's left? Life in prison is better and more comforting than a fast out for the perp? Depends on your point of view, but the idea of sending the rest of my miserable life in a 6X8 cell with the guards peeking in whenever it suits them does not appeal to me. I'd as soon get it over with and have always felt life in prison was the less desirable end.
The death sentence makes no sense.


In the compilation of the proceedings and court costs that result in a 'death' sentence have you set off the proceedings and court costs that result in a 'life' sentence in another state?

I appreciate that there will be appeals against the death penalty sentence, but there are also appeals against other sentences.

Has the increase in inflation of the prison costs over subsequent years also been take into account?

Lets compare apples with apples.

Gerarddm
02-14-2014, 10:27 AM
Lew, not necessarily so. I am reminded of the late notorious mass killer Richard Speck, who quite nicely lived out his life sentence in jail with nary a thought of remorse ( asked by a fellow inmate of why he killed the six nurses, he shrugged and said " just their time, I guess" ).

I sympathize with the argument that the death penalty is inherently unfair because of its uneven application, and there have been any number of abuses of it. However, when the evidence is incontrovertible and the crime especially heinous, I have a hard time caring whether the criminal is executed or not. Speck is an example; Timothy McVeigh is another.

Keith Wilson
02-14-2014, 10:37 AM
I sympathize with the argument that the death penalty is inherently unfair because of its uneven application, and there have been any number of abuses of it. However, when the evidence is incontrovertible and the crime especially heinous, I have a hard time caring whether the criminal is executed or not.Me too. There are some folks I have no compunction at all about executing. My main problem with the death penalty is that we make mistakes all too often, and it's hard to undo.

Ian McColgin
02-14-2014, 10:55 AM
I understand personally wanting to kill some especially malevolent malefactors, but I believe it is dehumanizing and degrading to society to stoop so low.

Phillip Allen
02-14-2014, 11:06 AM
I understand personally wanting to kill some especially malevolent malefactors, but I believe it is dehumanizing and degrading to society to stoop so low.

no one asked me, Ian, but even though I wouldn't ban the dp, I feel it is used far, far too often even if just to coerse pleas which couldn't otherwise be gotten... the system is corrupt

Sky Blue
02-14-2014, 11:09 AM
Me too. There are some folks I have no compunction at all about executing.


For me, Timothy McVeigh is the poster child for this view. I deeply oppose the death penalty, but in this case, it was difficult to stay principled.

I had a great deal of sympathy for his lawyer, Stephen Jones, who had a microphone shoved in his face everyday and had to try to navigate his client's interest in that environment.

Sky Blue
02-14-2014, 11:18 AM
I believe it is dehumanizing and degrading to society to stoop so low.

It undoubtedly is. We look at the Taliban's soccer stadium execution theatre as utterly horrifying and barbarous, because civilization has bypassed such inhumane means of exacting justice.

One day our own sanitized and "humane" practices will be viewed in the same way.

Rum_Pirate
02-14-2014, 11:20 AM
Me too. There are some folks I have no compunction at all about executing. My main problem with the death penalty is that we make mistakes all too often, and it's hard to undo. They can undo the death penalty? Surely not once carried out.

Rum_Pirate
02-14-2014, 11:23 AM
OK instead of a death penalty what about a medically induced coma? :rolleyes:

Keith Wilson
02-14-2014, 11:32 AM
They can undo the death penalty? Surely not once carried out.Like I said, hard to undo. Very hard. :d

bob winter
02-14-2014, 11:38 AM
I don't approve of the death penalty but I can think of some who are no great loss if they are executed. Paul Bernardo here in Canada comes to mind.

slug
02-14-2014, 11:39 AM
I wonder how many innocent people have been executed in the US...hundreds, perhaps thousands.

Sky Blue
02-14-2014, 11:43 AM
It happens. The Southern Poverty Law Center's "innocence project" has used DNA testing to free (or cause death penalty commutation) to a number of death row inmates, some having languished on death row from convictions entered prior to the wide availability of DNA testing.

Lew Barrett
02-14-2014, 03:21 PM
Lew, not necessarily so. I am reminded of the late notorious mass killer Richard Speck, who quite nicely lived out his life sentence in jail with nary a thought of remorse ( asked by a fellow inmate of why he killed the six nurses, he shrugged and said " just their time, I guess" ).

I sympathize with the argument that the death penalty is inherently unfair because of its uneven application, and there have been any number of abuses of it. However, when the evidence is incontrovertible and the crime especially heinous, I have a hard time caring whether the criminal is executed or not. Speck is an example; Timothy McVeigh is another.

Most people feel this way. I do, how cold you not? But I don't think that's the right thinking for me. Of course, the conditions you are prepared to keep people in have a bearing on cost. I suppose that could be part of this conversation, or another. We'd have to argue with the statistics for each case, death or life, and come up with a dollar cost. The argument can begin over my link if you like, but to keep it focused, I'm perfectly content to back down to the argument that punishing one innocent person is worse than letting the ten off easy.

Rum, that's probably close to the answer I'd have given your post as well.

Lew Barrett
02-14-2014, 03:26 PM
And let me add, as far as Juan Carlos Chavez is concerned, yeah, there's no great loss. I say we gain this moment at no great cost to compunction, but we pay with our ethics. This is a price.

goodbasil
02-14-2014, 05:05 PM
I read a report around 1990 that stated of all the executions carried out in the US since 1900, 18.5% were found to be innocent.

That is a lousey batting average.

pefjr
02-14-2014, 09:35 PM
I read a report around 1990 that stated of all the executions carried out in the US since 1900, 18.5% were found to be innocent.

That is a lousey batting average.I read the same thing in the bilge a few weeks ago. I was going to consider the source, however like your post here, there was no source.

slug
02-15-2014, 01:34 AM
I read the same thing in the bilge a few weeks ago. I was going to consider the source, however like your post here, there was no source.



The internet is your friend...Just google....educate yourself.

remember, YOU are the one doing the killing.

For instance

http://www3.illinois.gov/PressReleases/showpressrelease.cfm?subjectid=3&recnum=359

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 31, 2000




Governor Ryan Declares Moratorium On Executions, Will Appoint Commission To Review Capital Punishment System


CHICAGO -- Governor George H. Ryan today declared a moratorium on executions of any more Illinois Death Row inmates until a Commission he will appoint to conduct a review of the administration of the death penalty in Illinois can make recommendations to him.


"I now favor a moratorium, because I have grave concerns about our state's shameful record of convicting innocent people and putting them on death row," Governor Ryan said. "And, I believe, many Illinois residents now feel that same deep reservation. I cannot support a system, which, in its administration, has proven to be so fraught with error and has come so close to the ultimate nightmare, the state's taking of innocent life. Thirteen people have been found to have been wrongfully convicted."

Ian McColgin
02-15-2014, 07:09 AM
I spent a bit of google time trying to find the source of the 18.5% and failed. Most of our solid information dates from much later and concerns people wrongfully convicted but found not guilty before execution. That's good and important work but if the 18.5% comes from some sort of projection of what we know from those the Innocence Project, Southern Poverty Law Center, and others have saved, I could not find it.

I did find (now don't remember where) one judge or politician who found that 25 dead innocent people in his turf was acceptable - people die in buildings that fall down too and nothing's perfect. Well, it's a point of view.

slug
02-15-2014, 07:14 AM
I spent a bit of google time trying to find the source of the 18.5% and failed. Most of our solid information dates from much later and concerns people wrongfully convicted but found not guilty before execution. That's good and important work but if the 18.5% comes from some sort of projection of what we know from those the Innocence Project, Southern Poverty Law Center, and others have saved, I could not find it.

I did find (now don't remember where) one judge or politician who found that 25 dead innocent people in his turf was acceptable - people die in buildings that fall down too and nothing's perfect. Well, it's a point of view.


Acceptable deaths ??

Ian McColgin
02-15-2014, 07:29 AM
Absolutely acceptable deaths. Just as we who oppose the death penalty know that means not killing someone we might personally and deeply want to kill, and for good reason at that, so also those who support the death penalty with any shred of integrity accept honestly that innocent people will be executed but that the justice system's closure is more important. Any pro-death folk who don't admit to this are like twinkie sops who can only get their meat wrapped and who would never even watch killing and butchering a steer or killing and plucking a chicken.

jonboy
02-15-2014, 08:59 AM
Its easy...when an accused murderer has been caught red-handed or crows about his/ her exploits, in any situation where there is no doubt. put them down. Not 'no doubt? as discussed argued and and opined by a third party.
when there is any doubt, when the decision is based on juries judges politicians or lawyers with an axe to grind, definitely not. Even if a totally apparently obviously guilty party says, sorry guys, it wasn't me,, then no death penalty. There have been many cases where the perpetrator has, as above, been caught or apprehended or totally utterly admitted the murder, then, no problem. To qualify further, no plea bargaining no turning 'king's evidence', no extorted ordubious confessions.

Those charming gentlemen who tied a guy behind their pick-up and dragged him until he was in pieces, should not just be humanely euthanised, but tied behind a pick up truck and towed along the road until they are in pieces. No argument.

pefjr
02-15-2014, 11:05 AM
The internet is your friend...Just google....educate yourself.

remember, YOU are the one doing the killing.

For instance

http://www3.illinois.gov/PressReleases/showpressrelease.cfm?subjectid=3&recnum=359

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 31, 2000




Governor Ryan Declares Moratorium On Executions, Will Appoint Commission To Review Capital Punishment System


CHICAGO -- Governor George H. Ryan today declared a moratorium on executions of any more Illinois Death Row inmates until a Commission he will appoint to conduct a review of the administration of the death penalty in Illinois can make recommendations to him.


"I now favor a moratorium, because I have grave concerns about our state's shameful record of convicting innocent people and putting them on death row," Governor Ryan said. "And, I believe, many Illinois residents now feel that same deep reservation. I cannot support a system, which, in its administration, has proven to be so fraught with error and has come so close to the ultimate nightmare, the state's taking of innocent life. Thirteen people have been found to have been wrongfully convicted."That is your source? Have you read it? I would have agreed to stop the Drone Policy years ago, based on good info of thousands of innocents killed. Not many cared, did you? Obomba Admin says collateral damage.

goodbasil
02-17-2014, 12:07 AM
Looking back it was on TV. 20 some years ago. Remember it well.