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John Smith
01-25-2014, 11:35 AM
I say we have to go to single payer healthcare so that health insurance is not part of the cost of hiring people.

Then we need to look at how automation has improved productivity, and maybe stop thinking of 8 hour days as full time jobs.

How do we get back the jobs we've lost?

If a product is manufactured, how can we get in manufactured here?

slug
01-25-2014, 12:07 PM
Short workdays sound nice but they waste energy. When civil society stopped working seven day weeks and shifted to a short 5 day weeks, energy was not a concern.

John Smith
01-25-2014, 01:10 PM
I'm all for going to an 8 day week: everyone works 5 days with three days off; rotating. Every day is part of someone's 3 day weekend. The business works every day.

John Smith
01-25-2014, 01:10 PM
The question here is one of if YOU were in a position to make changes, what would you change in order to stimulate the creation of good jobs?

slug
01-25-2014, 01:20 PM
I wouldnt interfere with private enterprise. I would encourage them to be profitable and successful.

Private enterprise means small buisness.

Its possible that government jobs could be reworked with shorter weeks .

John Smith
01-25-2014, 01:27 PM
I wouldnt interfere with private enterprise. I would encourage them to be profitable and successful.

Private enterprise means small buisness.

Its possible that government jobs could be reworked with shorter weeks .


Since it is private enterprise that pays for all the other things, I would "interfere". That's why I'd go to single payer healthcare to get it out of the cost of private enterprise doing business.

There is a basic fact of life that we, the people, as consumers and/or taxpayers pay for every benefit any employee gets from his employer, public or private..

We frequently hear about the high cost of American labor, but rarely seem to include our employer based healthcare system in that debate.

We can't go back, but rather than cut taxes on the 'job creators' in hopes they would create jobs, we could have promised them tax cuts AFTER they created the jobs.

wardd
01-25-2014, 02:41 PM
with single payer wages go up

Dan McCosh
01-25-2014, 02:48 PM
There is no net savings due to single-payer health care per se. The cost is borne through payroll taxes, which means a pay cut to the employee if the labor cost to the employer remains constant. If the pay to the employe remains constant, it would take an increase in the labor cost to the employer. There are significant arguments for single-payer, but making labor costs competitive with other countries isn't one of them. Might look at labor costs in Canada vs. the U.S. as an illustration. Medical costs in the U.S. are high due to the high prices charged, not because of the insurance system.

Paul Pless
01-25-2014, 02:56 PM
How do we get back the jobs we've lost?easy peasy. . .

1. require that companies that want to import product into the united states observe the same set of standards in their overseas manufacturing with regards to worker safety, worker rights, and environmental practices as if that product were being made in a domestic factory

2. pull our military back, why are we subsidizing the national defense of some of our most sophisticated competitors: the EU, Japan, and South Korea

3. make a large and sustained investment in infrastructure and alternative energy projects

I'm baffled that anyone even needs to ask how to create and protect jobs in America. . .

CWSmith
01-25-2014, 03:49 PM
Add to Paul's list: Return the tax structure to pre-Reagan ratios and admit that the economy is built by the earning and spending of the middle class, not the rich and not the stock market.

Waddie
01-25-2014, 04:10 PM
The US is not even in the top ten of best places to do business. We add thousands of pages of regulations each year, much of it pushed by lobby efforts by established companies to protect market share and prevent new competition from starting up. We seldom drop outdated, conflicting or overlapping regulations. New start ups in this country have dropped dramatically in the last ten years, and health care has very little to do with it.

What's going on is that business, even small business, is now operating in a global environment. There is a great leavening underway as poverty rates worldwide are dropping as wages increase overseas but developed countries are feeling a stagnation in wages, unless you're at the top. But before you blame it all on the 1%'ers, keep in mind that anyone in the US making over $34K is a global 1%'er. Redistribution of wealth is working.

There are many headwinds besides global wage equalization facing the creation of good paying jobs in the US; including an education system mired in mediocrity, a lack of new product development, the inability now to scale important technology sectors (forcing production overseas as that's where the supply chain is), free trade agreements that favor overseas production by lack of environmental protections, worker safety, or consumer liability protections (remember Chinese wall board?). US tax policy also provides incentives that discourages new hiring.

But the number one headwind facing our economy is demographics. As our populations ages is simply spends less. This fact has held constant over every era of our history. It is a worldwide fact. It's true everywhere, in every time period. The highest spending year (on average) is age 46. Slightly higher for well educated people, whose spending trails the average slightly because of delayed gratification due to their extended years of education. Even the rich spend less as they move into their retirement years. There are actually about 108 million baby boomers; and even though the following groups are statically larger, 138 million, they are spread out over many more years and lack the impact that the huge spike of baby boomers has. One of the things statistics shows is that baby boomers buy a new vehicles soon after they retire. Often they no longer need the Minivan (the kids are gone) so they buy a nice car or especially a pickup truck. (This is where the new vehicle sales are booming now). It will last for several more years, then new vehicle sales will level off or even decline.

Big businesses in mature industries will not be adding large numbers of new employees in the coming years. Just won't happen. So it is left to small business and start-ups to be job creators. In this area government can be of great assistance. Ever watch Shark Tank? When presented with a nifty new manufactured product the Sharks always want to move the production overseas "because they can get it produced". What they're saying is that the necessary supply chain (which also includes engineers and technicians as well as casting, raw materials, etc.) is already in place. We need to create new supply chains here. *We once could produce TV's here, but to start-up producing things like TV's you need engineers and technicians familiar with TV manufacturing. We simply do not have that capability anymore. Government needs to provide assistance all along the supply chain.

We also need to re-write "free trade" agreements to bring emerging country manufacturing closer to our standards. This would automatically eliminate much of their unfair trade advantage, and I think foreign citizens and workers would appreciate it.

We also need to streamline the process for opening up a new business. Instead of having to deal with 18 or 20 government agencies there should be one clearing house that assists people with understanding what the rules are and helps them wade through the paperwork. We should also review the regulations that make it difficult to compete against established businesses.

Finally; the countries that will be the most prosperous in the future will mostly be countries that have a trade surplus. We need government to assist small businesses in tapping into the global market with their new products. No one will grow their company rapidly anymore without a global presence. Wealth is being transferred to emerging economies, and that's where we need to be. For instance; First thing every rising citizen wants in an emerging economy is a cell phone. They'll need apps and accessories. Then they'll learn about other products. Then they'll buy from the Germans or even the Chinese (if they can't afford German). Why not buy American?

There's more but this post is long enough,

regards,
Waddie

Bob Adams
01-25-2014, 04:19 PM
Still have a USA made Zenith TV in my bedroom. Just won't die.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa3Ldi2f6qo

John Smith
01-25-2014, 04:24 PM
There is no net savings due to single-payer health care per se. The cost is borne through payroll taxes, which means a pay cut to the employee if the labor cost to the employer remains constant. If the pay to the employe remains constant, it would take an increase in the labor cost to the employer. There are significant arguments for single-payer, but making labor costs competitive with other countries isn't one of them. Might look at labor costs in Canada vs. the U.S. as an illustration. Medical costs in the U.S. are high due to the high prices charged, not because of the insurance system.

Nonsense. Our present system is by far the most expensive in the world, and it doesn't work as well as the system used in other countries.

John Smith
01-25-2014, 04:25 PM
easy peasy. . .

1. require that companies that want to import product into the united states observe the same set of standards in their overseas manufacturing with regards to worker safety, worker rights, and environmental practices as if that product were being made in a domestic factory

2. pull our military back, why are we subsidizing the national defense of some of our most sophisticated competitors: the EU, Japan, and South Korea

3. make a large and sustained investment in infrastructure and alternative energy projects

I'm baffled that anyone even needs to ask how to create and protect jobs in America. . .

All good ideas. Maybe the question I should have asked is, "How do we get congress to do these things?"

Waddie
01-25-2014, 04:35 PM
Nonsense. Our present system is by far the most expensive in the world, and it doesn't work as well as the system used in other countries.

Sorry, John, Dan is essentially correct when he says much of the high medical costs in this country are due to high prices charged. My wife worked 30+ years in upper management for a big health insurance provider. Here's how it works; The insurance companies collude to set a maximum rate (varies by region of the country) for each coded procedure. Practitioners (their office) will ask what that maximum rate is, and bill at that rate. (Actually, there are a few private companies that will keep an office updated on rates for a fee). As the rate then goes up, the billing goes up. It's SOP in any doctors office. Though she did tell me that a few doctors don't max bill; but she didn't know why in the world they would pass up the opportunity. It's also SOP for the practitioner's office (this is where a sharp office manager is imperative) to break down any procedure into as many separate coding numbers as possible to maximize reimbursement.

regards,
Waddie

Michael D. Storey
01-25-2014, 06:24 PM
easy peasy. . .

1. require that companies that want to import product into the united states observe the same set of standards in their overseas manufacturing with regards to worker safety, worker rights, and environmental practices as if that product were being made in a domestic factory

2. pull our military back, why are we subsidizing the national defense of some of our most sophisticated competitors: the EU, Japan, and South Korea

3. make a large and sustained investment in infrastructure and alternative energy projects

I'm baffled that anyone even needs to ask how to create and protect jobs in America. . .

Good stuff, here.

Regards previous mention of automation: In the 60's, we were shedding 50,000 jobs per week to automation. Why are we still here?
The nation builds cars, better ones, with (what is it?) 28% less labor than 20 years ago. If we are ever to get back to the level of manufacturing employment that we once had, we need to produce more stuff, and sell it. The world is ready for an explosion of middle class persons. They buy stuff. We need to position ourselves to take a bigger piece of the pie. Remember that thing about producing I-phones here for only a buck more? Is that true? If it is, why not highly automated Mr Coffee machine plants? How bout in Detroit?
Is it true that labor in manufacturing continues to be a shrinking expense? If so, how do we move it to the point where we are back in the game? And how do we re-train the displaced workers, most of whom are sitting at home, assuming that they still got a place to live? How do we move to a smaller population? Why can we not develop a paradigm that will give us a healthy domestic economy without expansion or over consumption?

PhaseLockedLoop
01-25-2014, 07:19 PM
...admit that the economy is built by the earning and spending of the middle class, not the rich and not the stock market.

Used to be true, but look at the various South American countries with what were termed hot economies in the 80s and 90s. Their populations were mostly dirt-poor, because their hot economies didn't need a middle class. Now it's our turn. Look at how our so-called economy has bounced back while jobs have either evaporated or transitioned to part-time burger flipping. Of course all those unemployed people and low-paying jobs won't generate significant tax revenue, but we can adjust for that by abandoning our infrastructure and any notion of a decent society.

Tom Montgomery
01-25-2014, 07:29 PM
We create jobs by cutting taxes, of course. :p

Bob Adams
01-25-2014, 07:33 PM
Good stuff, here.


Is it true that labor in manufacturing continues to be a shrinking expense? If so, how do we move it to the point where we are back in the game? And how do we re-train the displaced workers, most of whom are sitting at home, assuming that they still got a place to live? How do we move to a smaller population? Why can we not develop a paradigm that will give us a healthy domestic economy without expansion or over consumption?

It is true. Unfortuantely, labor is the "low hanging fruit". Unimagintive management will go to the lowest cost labor. For instance, I'll be soon unemployed as my employer shuts my highly automated plant that pays good wages with decent benefits in favor of one in the South that needs almost twice as many workers per unit produced. Those workers are largely temps. Looks good on paper.

wardd
01-25-2014, 07:50 PM
create customers

Bob Adams
01-25-2014, 07:53 PM
create customers

There's the Catch 22, the customers need money to spend, so they need a job first.

S/V Laura Ellen
01-25-2014, 08:00 PM
Buy locally produced goods from people that employ people in your area, even if it costs you a bit more.

Bob Adams
01-25-2014, 08:02 PM
Buy locally produced goods from people that employ people in your area, even if it costs you a bit more.


I do that, but Wal Mart pretty much negates my efforts.;)

wardd
01-25-2014, 08:45 PM
There's the Catch 22, the customers need money to spend, so they need a job first.

extend unemployment

skipper68
01-25-2014, 08:56 PM
Terrifies, and get our products built here at a living wage, which Minimum wage should be at least $20.00 an hour. Buy American, by taking away that corporate welfare. If a Corporation is an an Citizen? Where is the "Child Support"?;)
Trillions of our $$ go over seas on "AMERICAN" ideas, for peeps selling a kidney to pay rent.. LOOK.
Everything.
Maytag Repair man answers from India... The washer is made in China.
WE as Americans cant make our stolen products, yet our Corporations get tax free.......to pay slave labor. Ughh...
Why we subsidize Walmart workers pay with food stamps and medicare. Double Jeopardy for the USA.
4 million people are off.NO WORK. Bush and Reagon extended unenjoyment. CRIME !! This will cause the average American to turn to crime.
4 MILLIONAmericans cant work at our subsidized crappy jobs. Or work 3 PT a week.
Our Representatives-I say that VERY loosely- work 90 days a year, yet say their constituents-THAT VOTED FOR THEM-work 60 hour weeks at 2 jobs are just LAZY. WTH?

CWSmith
01-25-2014, 08:56 PM
...Look at how our so-called economy has bounced back while jobs have either evaporated or transitioned to part-time burger flipping...

Has it really bounced back? The market has, but is that our economy or a vehicle for the haves to get more? I bought my house in 2003 and it went up at least 15% in the next 2 years (actually not what I view as a good thing), but right now it isn't worth what I paid for it. Good jobs are scarce and graduates are struggling. If manufacturing is on the rise, is it back to 2003 levels? This isn't the economy I want.

Full Tilt
01-25-2014, 09:00 PM
Declare war on something.

Isn't that how the states usually does it?

CWSmith
01-25-2014, 09:00 PM
Terrifies, and get our products built here at a living wage, which Minimum wage should be at least $20.00 an hour. Buy American, by taking away that corporate welfare. If a Corporation is an an Citizen? Where is the "Child Support"?;)


Does anyone really believe that the CEO needs to make $10M/year while the lowest paid employees make under $10/hour? Doesn't the same company benefit from employees who can afford to buy the product and a more vital middle class? Their greed is putting them out of business.

skipper68
01-25-2014, 09:05 PM
The CEO makes more in the head using the urinal, than the workers make in a week.Government Spends More on Corporate Welfare Subsidies …
thinkbynumbers.org/government-spending/corporate-welfare/corporat
About $59 billion is spent on traditional social welfare programs. $92 billion is spent on corporate subsidies. So, the government spent 50% more on corporate welfare ... Just saying, our taxes are buying them niceitys,while the employees are sucking on the gov.....u know.
Henry Ford knew, if his employees couldn't buy his product, he was doomed.

skipper68
01-25-2014, 09:14 PM
What would happen, if we started financing companies with them subsidies to make Refrigerators, Dish Washers, AND everything else to make a home.
FROM the USA?
Not PAYING these Corp's to out source these? Stop sending them the basics. without a big tariff?1982, my husband was a lumberjack. His logs would go over seas, then come back with the product.
No one here even then?
There is the virtual fence we need.

Waddie
01-26-2014, 12:22 AM
Does anyone really believe that the CEO needs to make $10M/year while the lowest paid employees make under $10/hour? Doesn't the same company benefit from employees who can afford to buy the product and a more vital middle class? Their greed is putting them out of business.

I would gladly pay $10M per year to someone who makes me $150M per year. I think you're blaming the wrong group. If that CEO doesn't make the earnings estimates and keep the stock price up he won't be earning anything. In fact, most CEO's paychecks are tied to financial performance , therefore a low base salary but a great bonus if he makes his performance goals. And why are earnings so important? So people and institutions, like your pension fund, will buy that stock. So your anger should be directed at those pesky stockholders. Convince them to buy when earnings are low and you won't need a high speed CEO.

Warren Buffet recently commented that if Jamie Dimon ever wanted to change careers he would hire him and pay him twice what he's making now - so about $80M per year. I doubt Buffet would pay that amount to someone who could only earn him $10M per year.

regards,
Waddie

slug
01-26-2014, 02:19 AM
The "New Economy " concentrates wealth, destroys jobs and has no state allegiance . Amazon had three billion in sales in the UK and paid no corporate tax.
This is just one mega size new economy company. How will you write laws to make this globalized new economy benefit the citizens ?

Henning 4148
01-26-2014, 06:34 AM
It is telling, that so many people concentrate on the monetary aspect of economy. I learned, that decisions in the ecomomy are based on "on time, on quality and on cost".

It just might help, if you stopped thinking, arguing and politicsing about what others should do to achieve the goal and just start doing what you can do yourself without help by others to move a little bit in the right direction. Especially in the way you personally spend money. How the combination of many individuals spend their money has a strong impact on how the world develops. Opt for quality, service and long lived items instead of cheap glitz. As individuals, opt for individually tailored solutions where they add value for you instead of mass produced cheap stuff that does not really fit your needs. When you refocus on "on quality" and "on time", you will often find, that the low cost products do not provide you with the value and performance you require.

Another aspect is customer orientation in work. Shoddy work in combination with a big mouth and hard pressing on contractual aspects will easily drive customers away. When you are not self employed, you have two customers to please - the external one and the boss to whom you sell your labor. Never leave a chance for any of these two to find fault in the quality of the work you deliver. Be reliable wrt. "on time delivery" as well on the commitments you made. Add value by your work for your customer (and your boss). When required to maintain a commitment, put in the extra bit of effort required. Put cost back at its place - as one factor among three driving economic decisions and not as the only one. Understand, that the cost aspect may not be the primary aspect, that created unemployment, but that it may have been lack of value provided to customers.

Provide good value for money yourself and spend your money in a way that you obtain excellent value, if needed purpose tailored solutions.

John Smith
01-26-2014, 08:55 AM
I would gladly pay $10M per year to someone who makes me $150M per year. I think you're blaming the wrong group. If that CEO doesn't make the earnings estimates and keep the stock price up he won't be earning anything. In fact, most CEO's paychecks are tied to financial performance , therefore a low base salary but a great bonus if he makes his performance goals. And why are earnings so important? So people and institutions, like your pension fund, will buy that stock. So your anger should be directed at those pesky stockholders. Convince them to buy when earnings are low and you won't need a high speed CEO.

Warren Buffet recently commented that if Jamie Dimon ever wanted to change careers he would hire him and pay him twice what he's making now - so about $80M per year. I doubt Buffet would pay that amount to someone who could only earn him $10M per year.

regards,
Waddie

I'll not argue that a successful CEO is worth the money, but let's be real: we've had a long list of unsuccessful CEO's who get obscenely large bonuses.

John Smith
01-26-2014, 08:58 AM
What would happen, if we started financing companies with them subsidies to make Refrigerators, Dish Washers, AND everything else to make a home.
FROM the USA?
Not PAYING these Corp's to out source these? Stop sending them the basics. without a big tariff?1982, my husband was a lumberjack. His logs would go over seas, then come back with the product.
No one here even then?
There is the virtual fence we need.

I floated the idea of giving the American consumer a significant tax break for buying a product made here.

Kind of like food stamps actually subsidize the agricultural industry via the consumer, this would subsidize the manufacturing industry via the consumer.

The first thing we need to do, which seems surprisingly difficult to do, is convince people that the old trickle down theory hasn't worked, and we MUST do something differently if we want different results.

John Smith
01-26-2014, 09:04 AM
It is telling, that so many people concentrate on the monetary aspect of economy. I learned, that decisions in the ecomomy are based on "on time, on quality and on cost".

It just might help, if you stopped thinking, arguing and politicsing about what others should do to achieve the goal and just start doing what you can do yourself without help by others to move a little bit in the right direction. Especially in the way you personally spend money. How the combination of many individuals spend their money has a strong impact on how the world develops. Opt for quality, service and long lived items instead of cheap glitz. As individuals, opt for individually tailored solutions where they add value for you instead of mass produced cheap stuff that does not really fit your needs. When you refocus on "on quality" and "on time", you will often find, that the low cost products do not provide you with the value and performance you require.

Another aspect is customer orientation in work. Shoddy work in combination with a big mouth and hard pressing on contractual aspects will easily drive customers away. When you are not self employed, you have two customers to please - the external one and the boss to whom you sell your labor. Never leave a chance for any of these two to find fault in the quality of the work you deliver. Be reliable wrt. "on time delivery" as well on the commitments you made. Add value by your work for your customer (and your boss). When required to maintain a commitment, put in the extra bit of effort required. Put cost back at its place - as one factor among three driving economic decisions and not as the only one. Understand, that the cost aspect may not be the primary aspect, that created unemployment, but that it may have been lack of value provided to customers.

Provide good value for money yourself and spend your money in a way that you obtain excellent value, if needed purpose tailored solutions.

I recycle. I'm sure it helps, but it didn't prevent that chemical leak in West Va.

I can't buy an American made camera (or other) if there is no American made option.

My memory tells me that the thing that did in the American auto industry was the poor quality of the product. Quality control is a management responsibility. Le Iacocca made a famous "They're beating our brains out" speech. He was talking about quality. When the as lines of the 70's drove people to smaller imported cars they found much higher quality. And a lot of standard equipment Detroit made as costly options.

One difference that was pointed out was Honda and Toyota were willing to work with a smaller per unit profit margin. They seemed to want really happy customers, so they would come back and buy another of their product.

Michael D. Storey
01-26-2014, 09:46 AM
Buy locally produced goods from people that employ people in your area, even if it costs you a bit more.

Well, a 4100 NM boat ride from Asia can't come cheap, even in steerage, and domestically produced items start out with a big savings, potentially.
There is no simple answer. It's not all just produce cheaper. It's also having customers capable of buying, as mentioned in #20, above.

Michael D. Storey
01-26-2014, 09:56 AM
Terrifies, and get our products built here at a living wage, which Minimum wage should be at least $20.00 an hour. Buy American, by taking away that corporate welfare. If a Corporation is an an Citizen? Where is the "Child Support"?;)
Trillions of our $$ go over seas on "AMERICAN" ideas, for peeps selling a kidney to pay rent.. LOOK.
Everything.
Maytag Repair man answers from India... The washer is made in China.
WE as Americans cant make our stolen products, yet our Corporations get tax free.......to pay slave labor. Ughh...
Why we subsidize Walmart workers pay with food stamps and medicare. Double Jeopardy for the USA.
4 million people are off.NO WORK. Bush and Reagon extended unenjoyment. CRIME !! This will cause the average American to turn to crime.
4 MILLIONAmericans cant work at our subsidized crappy jobs. Or work 3 PT a week.
Our Representatives-I say that VERY loosely- work 90 days a year, yet say their constituents-THAT VOTED FOR THEM-work 60 hour weeks at 2 jobs are just LAZY. WTH?

Speaking of from India, I had to call Verizon twice to have a chat 'em up on connectivity probs, got an Indian each time, and each had similar banter: no talk when asked 'where you from?', same sort of compliments for my 'skills', of which if they had existed I would have not had to call, same greeting and sign-off.
But, the problem is fixed.
What do they make, and what would it take to hire someone here? A disabled person, a single unemployed parent with pre-schoolers, students, might be able to work from home, piece work style.
I fix things, but not everything. I could, but don't, consider someone who needs my assistance a moron, when the fix is simple. Computers and printers and routers are machines as much as are lawn mowers and tractors. Difference is that you can't see the probs by looking at the parts. The diagnosis regimine is different, but they are still machines.
I am aware that companies are slow to make changes, but I ask what would it take?

Dan McCosh
01-26-2014, 11:52 AM
Terrifies, and get our products built here at a living wage, which Minimum wage should be at least $20.00 an hour. Buy American, by taking away that corporate welfare. If a Corporation is an an Citizen? Where is the "Child Support"?;)
Trillions of our $$ go over seas on "AMERICAN" ideas, for peeps selling a kidney to pay rent.. LOOK.
Everything.
Maytag Repair man answers from India... The washer is made in China.
WE as Americans cant make our stolen products, yet our Corporations get tax free.......to pay slave labor. Ughh...
Why we subsidize Walmart workers pay with food stamps and medicare. Double Jeopardy for the USA.
4 million people are off.NO WORK. Bush and Reagon extended unenjoyment. CRIME !! This will cause the average American to turn to crime.
4 MILLIONAmericans cant work at our subsidized crappy jobs. Or work 3 PT a week.
Our Representatives-I say that VERY loosely- work 90 days a year, yet say their constituents-THAT VOTED FOR THEM-work 60 hour weeks at 2 jobs are just LAZY. WTH?I like the idea of everybody being paid above average.

Reynard38
01-26-2014, 12:03 PM
Declare war on something.

Isn't that how the states usually does it?

Canada has oil right? And it's close. :)

CWSmith
01-26-2014, 01:32 PM
I'll not argue that a successful CEO is worth the money, but let's be real: we've had a long list of unsuccessful CEO's who get obscenely large bonuses.

And this is the point. We have a culture of obscenely overpaid CEOs so that it's the rule rather than the exception. Ben & Jerry had a great business model that included paying their employees properly and their management within reason. They abandoned this when they went national under the claim that they needed to in order to get a good CEO. Their product sold itself. I don't believe they needed to sell their values to expand, but that is the culture we live in.

Full Tilt
01-26-2014, 01:47 PM
Canada has oil right? And it's close. :)


Pretty sure we already surrendered.

Bob Adams
01-26-2014, 01:48 PM
And this is the point. We have a culture of obscenely overpaid CEOs so that it's the rule rather than the exception. Ben & Jerry had a great business model that included paying their employees properly and their management within reason. They abandoned this when they went national under the claim that they needed to in order to get a good CEO. Their product sold itself. I don't believe they needed to sell their values to expand, but that is the culture we live in.

Ben & Jerrys. Yup, when Unilever bought them, they started the same old corperate proceedure, cheapening the product, reducing the portion size all while not lowering or even increasing the price. Unilever did the same thing to the products my plant made before they sold us.

slug
01-26-2014, 02:02 PM
Ben & Jerrys. Yup, when Unilever bought them, they started the same old corperate proceedure, cheapening the product, reducing the portion size all while not lowering or even increasing the price. Unilever did the same thing to the products my plant made before they sold us.

there you go...a small to mid sized company swallowed by a conglomerate.

Lost jobs with wealth concentration to the shareholders of the conglomerate.

how do you stop this cycle ?

wardd
01-26-2014, 02:27 PM
I'll not argue that a successful CEO is worth the money, but let's be real: we've had a long list of unsuccessful CEO's who get obscenely large bonuses.

who is worth a billion a year?

wardd
01-26-2014, 02:28 PM
I floated the idea of giving the American consumer a significant tax break for buying a product made here.

Kind of like food stamps actually subsidize the agricultural industry via the consumer, this would subsidize the manufacturing industry via the consumer.

The first thing we need to do, which seems surprisingly difficult to do, is convince people that the old trickle down theory hasn't worked, and we MUST do something differently if we want different results.

make that tax cut a rebate based on income

PhaseLockedLoop
01-27-2014, 01:20 PM
Has it really bounced back? The market has, but is that our economy or a vehicle for the haves to get more? I bought my house in 2003 and it went up at least 15% in the next 2 years (actually not what I view as a good thing), but right now it isn't worth what I paid for it. Good jobs are scarce and graduates are struggling. If manufacturing is on the rise, is it back to 2003 levels? This isn't the economy I want.

That's what I was trying to say. What's referred to as "the economy" doesn't necessarily have much to do with the the state of the population. Just as the economies of S. American dictatorships were hailed as going gangbusters while the population starved, now the US economy is reported to be recovered because Wall Street is doing great. I wish the media would stop talking about "the economy" and focus on the helplessness of the workforce. Obama, having spent years pumping money into the market to re-inflate Wall Street, is now saying he'll do something about jobs. Of course he says so. But the things he might do would undermine the corporate bottom line, and that isn't going to happen.

There isn't any reason why the US workforce won't be pauperized, because "the economy" doesn't need it. It can happen, and so far it is happening. Meanwhile, enormous sums are going into "homeland security" and the militarization of police, supposedly to keep us safe from impoverished people living in caves seven thousand miles away.

John Smith
01-27-2014, 01:45 PM
who is worth a billion a year?

I not only don't think anyone is worth that kind of money, but I can't imagine anyone needing it. Even in today's economy, isn't anything after the first $10 million a year pointless.

I don't believe our sports stars should be paid so much. If they had to, they'd play for a lot less. A guy used to argue Namath was worth the money because he filled the seats in the stadium. Well, that stadium seems to have been sold out for every game since Namath retired.

To a large extent, I blame the people. Several I know complain about sporting events being only on pay per view, but they keep paying to view. They feed the monster.

I remember Margaret Carlson on the old show "Capital Gang" remarking about the Bush tax cuts something very close to this: I can't understand why so many people are so supportive of tax cuts they won't see any of.

John Smith
01-27-2014, 01:46 PM
make that tax cut a rebate based on income

works for me.

John Smith
01-27-2014, 01:50 PM
That's what I was trying to say. What's referred to as "the economy" doesn't necessarily have much to do with the the state of the population. Just as the economies of S. American dictatorships were hailed as going gangbusters while the population starved, now the US economy is reported to be recovered because Wall Street is doing great. I wish the media would stop talking about "the economy" and focus on the helplessness of the workforce. Obama, having spent years pumping money into the market to re-inflate Wall Street, is now saying he'll do something about jobs. Of course he says so. But the things he might do would undermine the corporate bottom line, and that isn't going to happen.

There isn't any reason why the US workforce won't be pauperized, because "the economy" doesn't need it. It can happen, and so far it is happening. Meanwhile, enormous sums are going into "homeland security" and the militarization of police, supposedly to keep us safe from impoverished people living in caves seven thousand miles away.

I'm not sure anyone has said the economy has recovered. The fact is it is improving, but nowhere near as quickly as it needs to. It's hardly bounced. It is crawling back up the hill.

Imagine where the economy might be if Obama had managed to get some of his wishes past the Republicans. Imagine people starting serious work on our infrastructure 3 years ago. Imagine all the jobs of private contractors doing the work, and making the materials used in that work.

Imagine if he could have at least kept a public option as part of the ACA, or better yet given single payer a seat at the table.

Imagine if we didn't spend all that money (borrowed) on two pointless wars, and yes, Afghanistan is owned by Obama now.

Waddie
01-27-2014, 03:28 PM
who is worth a billion a year?

the guy who makes me $20 billion a year.

regards,
Waddie

Full Tilt
01-27-2014, 03:31 PM
who is worth a billion a year?

Mom Y:o

Michael D. Storey
01-27-2014, 04:18 PM
the guy who makes me $20 billion a year.

regards,
Waddie
By that logic, consider this: If you divide the earnings of MacDonalds by the number of employees that they have you get $440,000 per employee. Taking that 20 to 1 ratio, an employee, full time, is worth $11.00 per hour. That still is not enough to get their care off of the backs of the middle class, but it would be a step in the right direction.

Full Tilt
01-27-2014, 04:32 PM
^ Y:o Y>

wardd
01-27-2014, 05:17 PM
what some seem not to grasp the ceo is just another company employee

wardd
01-27-2014, 05:19 PM
show of hands, who here that works for somebody else is satisfied with how much they make considering how much they make for the company?

John Smith
01-27-2014, 05:25 PM
There's another area of this subject to consider.

A man owns a business that he inherited from his father. His product enjoys a good reputation because of the skill and dedication of the workers who actually make his product. Because of their skill, and high quality of workmanship, he can demand a higher price for his product.

Just exactly who is making whom money?

Michael D. Storey
01-27-2014, 05:57 PM
There's another area of this subject to consider.

A man owns a business that he inherited from his father. His product enjoys a good reputation because of the skill and dedication of the workers who actually make his product. Because of their skill, and high quality of workmanship, he can demand a higher price for his product.

Just exactly who is making whom money?

If their skill and work quality are that good, they can go sell it elsewhere if the high earnings are not spread to their liking. Is he the only game in town? Well, you can all strike, negociate a deal, buy him out, move, or learn to live with it.

wardd
01-27-2014, 06:02 PM
If their skill and work quality are that good, they can go sell it elsewhere if the high earnings are not spread to their liking. Is he the only game in town? Well, you can all strike, negociate a deal, buy him out, move, or learn to live with it.

until the aca his kid had a preexisting condition

he is a craftsman in a small niche industry and his company is the only manufacturer of whatever

the real estate market where he lives sucks and he can't sell his house

Reynard38
01-27-2014, 06:04 PM
Well, a 4100 NM boat ride from Asia can't come cheap, even in steerage, and domestically produced items start out with a big savings, potentially.
There is no simple answer. It's not all just produce cheaper. It's also having customers capable of buying, as mentioned in #20, above.

containerized shipping is VERY cheap. A friend of mine imports most of his products from India and China. A 40' container from China to Atlanta runs him around $3000.
You can put a lot of widgets in a 40' container.

Paul Pless
01-27-2014, 06:05 PM
I floated the idea of giving the American consumer a significant tax break for buying a product made here.

Kind of like food stamps actually subsidize the agricultural industry via the consumer, this would subsidize the manufacturing industry via the consumer.

The first thing we need to do, which seems surprisingly difficult to do, is convince people that the old trickle down theory hasn't worked, and we MUST do something differently if we want different results.


make that tax cut a rebate based on income

I think we need to make the tax code simpler, not more complicated. There's a long history of unintended consequences both in the short and the long term created by various 'tax incentives'. As a long time business owner, I'm here to tell you that the tax code, with its twisted and arcane stimulus incentives, have often caused me as a business owner to make decisions that made profits go down and thus tax revenue go down, in the interest of taking advantage of some tax loophole I made decisions regarding purchasing, selling and even hiring that I never would have done so in the natural course of running my business. Its frikking ridiculous.

Please note, my above commentary has absolutely no bearing on how I feel I about taxation, tax rates, and income inequality.

Reynard38
01-27-2014, 06:05 PM
show of hands, who here that works for somebody else is satisfied with how much they make considering how much they make for the company?

I'm not there yet, but I'm getting close.

Bob Adams
01-27-2014, 06:21 PM
show of hands, who here that works for somebody else is satisfied with how much they make considering how much they make for the company?

In the 22 years I've been with my company, I have saved them literally hundreds of thousands of dollars above my normal job responsibilities. My reward will be to be unemployed as the plant closes in favor of a plant in the South where they use largely temps for production. If I was an office worker, I'd have been promoted and probably allowed to transfer, but I am blue collar, so I don't count.

Michael D. Storey
01-28-2014, 07:50 AM
until the aca his kid had a preexisting condition

he is a craftsman in a small niche industry and his company is the only manufacturer of whatever

the real estate market where he lives sucks and he can't sell his house

Is this a real person or a collection of circumstances thrown together?