PDA

View Full Version : Gun Insanity



pcford
01-24-2014, 01:38 PM
I grew up around guns and it was a great pleasure to use them. However, the extreme attitude of the gun lobby has pushed me and most of the American public to the wall. I have had enough.


http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/21422-william-rivers-pitt-an-open-letter-to-lovers-of-the-gun
William Rivers Pitt | An Open Letter to Lovers of the Gun

"Wakefield Elementary School in Turlock, California, was put on temporary lockdown on Tuesday - amazing, isn't it, how terms like "temporary lockdown" have snuggled up next to terms like "elementary school" in our common-usage lexicon without anyone batting an eye - because a man was shot across the street.
Two students were shot by a student at the Delaware Valley Charter School in Philadelphia on Monday. According to reports, an 18-year-old graduate of the school gave a 17-year-old student the gun that was used.
A 16-year-old student at Albany High School in Georgia was shot at approximately the same time as the student at Delaware Valley Charter was shot. The victim is expected to survive.
A student at Widener University was shot on Tuesday while sitting in his car. As of this writing, he is in critical but stable condition.
A student at Berrendo Middle School in New Mexico opened fire in a crowded gymnasium with a sawed-off shotgun several days ago, seriously injuring two students. Parents are frightened to let their children go back.
A student at Liberty Technology Magnet High School in Tennessee was shot the week before last. He was 17 years old. A police dog found the gun, and the shooter is in custody.
A student was shot and killed on the campus of Purdue University on Tuesday. The killer surrendered immediately.
A piece of construction equipment on the campus of the University of Oklahoma backfired twice on Wednesday, sending the student body into a "shelter in place" panic before the police determined there was no threat.
Seven school shootings in 24 days? I can't imagine what they were worried about.
I said this (http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/20949-the-year-of-the-gun) on New Year's Day: "In 2010, by comparison, there were nine school shootings in America that killed seven people. In 2011, there were eleven school shootings that killed nine people. In 2012, there were fourteen school shootings - including the massacres at Sandy Hook Elementary and Oikos University - that killed 43 people. In 2013, there were twenty-three school shootings that killed nineteen people. Nine, then eleven, then fourteen, then twenty-three. If the trend holds, we can look forward to maybe thirty or forty school shootings in 2014."
I was wrong. Seven school shootings in the first month of the year means we are on pace, if this keeps up, to have no less than 84 school shootings by the end of December.
You.
Yes, you, who love your guns.
You.
I would ask what is wrong with you, but I already know: you love your guns more than you love your child, or his child, or her child, or my child. You love your guns, period.
Prove me wrong, because you haven't yet.
You.
I am puking sick of reading every single day about how your baby, your toddler, your brother, your sister, your cousin, your niece, your nephew, blew their brains into their lap with a gun you left lying around, because freedom, or something.
I am sick of mourning the gun dead day after day, every day, because every day someone wins the Someone Gets To Be Dead Today lottery, because of you, and a whole lot of those winners are children.
I am sick of how you hide behind gun money, gobs and gobs of political gun money, while complaining about the influence of money in politics. If any other item in common use in America - like aspirin, or a car - was wasting people with the dreary regularity of guns, that item would be banned by congressional fiat...but it's guns, so the slaughter slogs on, even as you tell your friends you hate the influence of "special interests" in politics, because you're a fraud in Technicolor.
I see you. And I am sick and tired of you.
I hope - I pray - that you are sick of yourself as you watch the bodies pile up around you like cordwood, as you see the shootings at this school, and that school, and this school, and that school, and someday your school, which will be on the TV news from a helicopter's view, with a voice guessing at the latest body count, while you are waiting for the word.
I would spare you that experience. Please spare me that experience.
It is not the anti-gun people who are going to make this right. It is the pro-gun people who know better, who see this slaughter for what it is, who will make this right.
Seven school shootings in 24 days.
See. Be disgusted. Do something.

"

Bob Adams
01-24-2014, 01:41 PM
I had a good thread on storage of firearms, which properly done would have prevented most of the recent school shootings. Unfortuately it was the victim of unrelated poofings.

Bob Adams
01-24-2014, 01:51 PM
I need to re do that thread, once,and if I am secure in my continued presence here. The thread advocated holding gun owners responsible for damage done by guns they failed to secure. Yes, in the majority of these cases, proper,secure storeage would have prevented the shootings. If a child has a gun, an adult failed to secure it.

Bob Adams
01-24-2014, 02:00 PM
In my mind (yeah, I know, iffy at best), in at least several, they had Daddy's guns. An if they were indeed the minor's own, the parents responsibility is to see the guns are under adult supervision when not locked away.

Paul Pless
01-24-2014, 02:12 PM
and if I am secure in my continued presence here.use the ignore function if you must. . .
the forum and the bilge in particular is a better place for your presence

Steve McMahon
01-24-2014, 04:31 PM
use the ignore function if you must. . .
the forum and the bilge in particular is a better place for your presence

Seconded.

Steve McMahon
01-24-2014, 04:33 PM
Even if safe storage laws only cut the instances by a percentage it would still be worth it.

Waddie
01-24-2014, 04:37 PM
The thread advocated holding gun owners responsible for damage done by guns they failed to secure.



That is a sentiment I'm completely in agreement with.

Sounds like a good principle of law. Let's also apply it to other products as well.

regards,
Waddie

Bob Adams
01-24-2014, 04:43 PM
use the ignore function if you must. . .
the forum and the bilge in particular is a better place for your presence

Thank you, I am

Unfortunately, it doesn't hide quotes.:p

pkrone
01-24-2014, 05:16 PM
We live in a "head shot" society. Shooter games (Modern Warfare and the like) have made some vulnerable people completely de-sensitized to the depravity of their acts. I submit, if studied, that the rise in availability and popularity of these games would correlate with the rise in random violence in our society. I don't think it's the sole reason, but just another link in the chain.

Waddie
01-24-2014, 05:36 PM
We live in a "head shot" society. Shooter games (Modern Warfare and the like) have made some vulnerable people completely de-sensitized to the depravity of their acts. I submit, if studied, that the rise in availability and popularity of these games would correlate with the rise in random violence in our society. I don't think it's the sole reason, but just another link in the chain.

I also see it as more than simply a gun control issue. Violence is celebrated in all aspects of our culture. The lack of imagination in the movie industry, music industry and video game industry causes the developers in each of these industries to fall back on the proven common denominator of gun violence to sell their products. Even though that means pandering to the lowest human impulses in the guise of giving the public what it wants. Alcohol and drug abuse are also common themes in our culture, and we already know they don't mix well with guns, yet we seem to be on a path to yet wider acceptance of all of this. But just as we want our alcohol and drugs to be easily available, no amount of additional gun control measures will deter us from having guns in our possession. In this country consumer demand rules.

regards,
Waddie

Breakaway
01-24-2014, 06:10 PM
We live in a "head shot" society. Shooter games (Modern Warfare and the like) have made some vulnerable people completely de-sensitized to the depravity of their acts. I submit, if studied, that the rise in availability and popularity of these games would correlate with the rise in random violence in our society. I don't think it's the sole reason, but just another link in the chain.

I played with cap guns, my father played with cap guns, my grandfather played with cap guns. Gun games may have an effect on society, but if so, its no recent development.

Kevin

George Jung
01-24-2014, 06:10 PM
Nice OP, PC. It pretty much sums up why I haven't shot a gun in over 20 years. In years past, hunting was one of my favorite pasttimes; now, I couldn't care less. Current 'gun culture' and what passes for 'sporting hunting' turns my stomach.

Ah well. At least they haven't totally screwed up fishing.

John Smith
01-24-2014, 06:19 PM
I also see it as more than simply a gun control issue. Violence is celebrated in all aspects of our culture. The lack of imagination in the movie industry, music industry and video game industry causes the developers in each of these industries to fall back on the proven common denominator of gun violence to sell their products. Even though that means pandering to the lowest human impulses in the guise of giving the public what it wants. Alcohol and drug abuse are also common themes in our culture, and we already know they don't mix well with guns, yet we seem to be on a path to yet wider acceptance of all of this. But just as we want our alcohol and drugs to be easily available, no amount of additional gun control measures will deter us from having guns in our possession. In this country consumer demand rules.

regards,
Waddie

And we wouldn't have had WWII if John Wayne hadn't made those movies.

Waddie
01-24-2014, 08:24 PM
And we wouldn't have had WWII if John Wayne hadn't made those movies.

Those WWII movies were very good at demonizing and dehumanizing Japs. Because what we needed then were cold hearted killers who would have no pangs of regret about killing. I think they call it de-sensitizing. The media is still very good at producing these kinds of movies, songs and games today. Thanks for making my point.

regards,
Waddie

Paul Pless
01-24-2014, 08:38 PM
Nice OP, PC. It pretty much sums up why I haven't shot a gun in over 20 years. In years past, hunting was one of my favorite pasttimes; now, I couldn't care less. Current 'gun culture' and what passes for 'sporting hunting' turns my stomach.

I don't understand, are you embarrassed to be a gun owner and a hunter?

I grew up with guns, shooting sports, and hunting prevalent in my family. Not worshipped or elevated to some obscene status, just a part of our family life. For many years I've been an avid collector and user of guns, and while my attitude towards gun rights and gun control have changed and come into sharper focus in the last three years or so, that hasn't clouded my own enjoyment in the ownership and use of firearms.

George Jung
01-24-2014, 10:22 PM
Gun culture - where Cabelas and the like routinely advertise their assault weapons and high capacity handguns - is a dramatic departure from what I grew up with. Commercialized hunting - about all that's available in these parts anymore - where more often than not, you 'hunt' with 20 strangers, generally with blockers and a good chance of being sprayed with pellets - I don't consider that hunting. The NRA stance - the defense of assault weapons - none of that is anything I'm interested in. Ashamed of? Not how I'd phrase it. Disgusted sums it up better.

Curtism
01-24-2014, 10:45 PM
Yes, the wholesale marketing of violence is getting better by the day. Anyone care to guess who the target audience is?

"Who are you not to be great? You, with the imagination of a brilliant child and the powers of an ancient god . . ."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et5_YQO3L-M

Curtism
01-24-2014, 10:48 PM
This one is also charming. Watch a couple hours of one of Americas favorite pastimes (NFL) and tell me how many time this ad runs.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0d9d-cdxhk

A bit of a departure from the cap guns we all had as kids, eh?

Donn
01-24-2014, 11:23 PM
Gun culture - The NRA stance - the defense of assault weapons -Disgusted sums it up better.

I'd say ignorant sums it up more accurately. You have no clue as to what the "gun culture" consists of. You have no clue of who or what defends "assault weapons," and you have no clue of the position of the NRA. I doubt if you were ever a gun fan or user of any consequence, and I figure your position stated in the OP is another suck-up to this forum's anti-gun-in-any-form leftists.

Steve McMahon
01-24-2014, 11:58 PM
I'd say ignorant sums it up more accurately. You have no clue as to what the "gun culture" consists of. You have no clue of who or what defends "assault weapons," and you have no clue of the position of the NRA. I doubt if you were ever a gun fan or user of any consequence, and I figure your position stated in the OP is another suck-up to this forum's anti-gun-in-any-form leftists.

Golly gee gosh darn Donn. I haven't seen any anti-gun-in-any-form leftists on this forum. Mostly just folks who would like to see gun owners keep them safe and secure and some like I who would argue the need to own concealable (handguns) weapons. The NRA is pretty clear on what it's position is.

Donn
01-25-2014, 12:15 AM
I haven't seen any anti-gun-in-any-form leftists on this forum.

If that's your opinion, you're blind.



The NRA is pretty clear on what it's position is.

What would that be?

S/V Laura Ellen
01-25-2014, 12:17 AM
... and you have no clue of the position of the NRA....

Yes, the NRA has been very clear about their position on gun storage.


Friday, April 11, Senate Bill 49 (http://www.leg.state.co.us/CLICS/CLICS2008A/csl.nsf/fsbillcont3/2B692131807A4AF1872573680052EB4E?Open&file=049_01.pdf), sponsored by State Senator Sue Windels (D-19), Colorado’s mandatory storage bill was defeated by a vote of 9 to 1 in the Senate Appropriations Committee. SB49 would have forced adults to store all their firearms under lock and key or face an undetermined misdemeanor penalty if a firearm was later used in a suicide or crime. This dangerous bill would have rendered homeowners defenseless and given criminals a clear advantage in home invasions. If passed, SB49 would have added to the already cumbersome bureaucracy that affects gun shops, gun shows, or anywhere else firearms are sold, by requiring them to post a sign informing gun owners that they must lock up their guns.
Thank you to all of the NRA members and gun owners who called their elected officials in opposition to this bill.


The NRA position on assault rifles.
http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/fact-sheets/2013/s-150-the-biggest-proposed-gun-and-magazine-ban-in-american-history.aspx

pcford
01-25-2014, 12:49 AM
Nice OP, PC. It pretty much sums up why I haven't shot a gun in over 20 years. In years past, hunting was one of my favorite pasttimes; now, I couldn't care less. Current 'gun culture' and what passes for 'sporting hunting' turns my stomach.

Ah well. At least they haven't totally screwed up fishing.
In your business I imagine you see the results of gun madness.
As to fishing, a pole and bait does not relay the symbolism of a certain part of the male anatomy to tired old men.

Donn
01-25-2014, 01:12 AM
..defeated by a vote of 9 to 1 ..

Pretty close, wasn't it?

Glen Longino
01-25-2014, 01:36 AM
I'd say ignorant sums it up more accurately. You have no clue as to what the "gun culture" consists of. You have no clue of who or what defends "assault weapons," and you have no clue of the position of the NRA. I doubt if you were ever a gun fan or user of any consequence, and I figure your position stated in the OP is another suck-up to this forum's anti-gun-in-any-form leftists.

Oh, looky here, Donn the Rabid is calling George "ignorant"!
If I had posted this same tripe toward Donn, I'd have been called out by Scot in five minutes!
Who the hell does Donn think he is anyhow?

slug
01-25-2014, 01:59 AM
The entire american culture is a gun fetish. Get used to it and stop complaining.

Off duty cop walks into a gun shop fully armed then accidentally shoot himself while fantasizing during a quick draw.

common rednecks go shopping with assault rifles on thier shoulder.

dads bring guns to pee wee football games.

http://s30.postimg.org/qx0k9ogkh/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
subir imagenes (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

Robbie 2
01-25-2014, 02:37 AM
Nice OP, PC. It pretty much sums up why I haven't shot a gun in over 20 years. In years past, hunting was one of my favorite pasttimes; now, I couldn't care less. Current 'gun culture' and what passes for 'sporting hunting' turns my stomach.

Ah well. At least they haven't totally screwed up fishing.
Ditto....haven't fired a gun in years also and hunting was my passion too but now....who gives a #$$%^&.
Rather go fishing.

Willin'
01-25-2014, 09:39 AM
I'd say ignorant sums it up more accurately. You have no clue as to what the "gun culture" consists of. You have no clue of who or what defends "assault weapons," and you have no clue of the position of the NRA. I doubt if you were ever a gun fan or user of any consequence, and I figure your position stated in the OP is another suck-up to this forum's anti-gun-in-any-form leftists.

Hmmmm, I wonder what "a gun fan or user of any consequence" is and what do you have to do to be a member of that group? Is it how many you own? How big they are? How many lives you've taken with them? How many drones you've shot down with them?

Are you a gun user of consequence, Donn?

Willin'
01-25-2014, 09:44 AM
The entire american culture is a gun fetish. Get used to it and stop complaining.

What's next, love it or leave it?


Wasn't long ago there were no restrictions on smoking in bars. Everyone knew there could never be, it was just a natural fact.

Funny how times and opinions change.

slug
01-25-2014, 10:17 AM
You will not remove guns and violent death from american culture. Never.

Best if you adapt.

Avoid crowds, wear anti ballistic clothing, obey the latest Lock Down orders and always keep an eye on the sky for silver objects..drones...INCOMING !!!!! .... Be wise to the American " double tap " and stay burried until they have finished playing with their weapons.

You will never disarm america..its unpatriotic

http://s1.postimg.org/8wpoaiklr/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
subir imagen (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

pefjr
01-25-2014, 10:20 AM
Hmmm.... reading this makes me wonder to what lengths gun owners will go to defend that right. Gun owners do not need to defend anything, they have the numbers on their side, they have the interpretation of the 2nd by the SCUTUS on their side. It's a done deal,......no matter how many kids are killed, no matter who or how many are killed, ... and will be that way long into the foreseeable future. Yes , it's insanity, it started out as a necessity, with the rape and theft of a continent, 500 hundred yrs. ago. Sometime about the late 1800's I'd say it was no longer necessary, yet the 2nd has never been successfully challenged and the insanity may be a stronger need than the necessity was. The insanity actually creates a necessity of having a gun for self defense. Now, you add in the insanity of legally carrying a gun, and that is creating further needs of a defense against this insanity. It's feeding on itself and the gun stores, NRA, and manufacturers of the guns and paraphernalia are all smiling. It might be better to recognize this rather than saying you have had enough, cause there ain't enough that have had enough to do anything about it. It is political suicide for any politician to try, even when one of their own gets shot. The fact that the shooter is still alive and cared for is another connecting insanity left for another thread. It might be better to arm yourself , sit on the sidelines and shoot the first MFer with a carry that says a threatening word to you. No retreat law. Survival of the fittest. First you shoot, then ask questions later. Can't beat them, join them.

Bob Adams
01-25-2014, 10:22 AM
The NRA stance - the defense of assault weapons - none of that is anything I'm interested in. Ashamed of? Not how I'd phrase it. Disgusted sums it up better.

George, would you be disgusted with this gun?

http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14RanchRifle/images/5801.jpg


I know how you feel about these:

http://www.thehulltruth.com/attachments/dockside-chat/97735d1263929659-ruger-ranch-rifle-sany0313.jpg

All the same. What an "assault" style rifle does better is grab headlines.

pefjr
01-25-2014, 10:27 AM
Avoid crowds, wear anti ballistic clothing, obey the latest Lock Down orders and always keep an eye on the sky for silver objects..drones...INCOMING !!!!! ....
I bought a camo outfit to hide out for awhile, hung in my closet and now can't find it.

Boston
01-25-2014, 10:45 AM
I'd say ignorant sums it up more accurately. You have no clue as to what the "gun culture" consists of. You have no clue of who or what defends "assault weapons," and you have no clue of the position of the NRA. I doubt if you were ever a gun fan or user of any consequence, and I figure your position stated in the OP is another suck-up to this forum's anti-gun-in-any-form leftists.

Its just basic self induced ignorance Donn, the crime stats clearly show that the only rise in gun violence is all in one category, gang related crime. There's a 20 or 30 year drop in all other forms of gun violence as I recall, I suppose I could go look it all up again, but whats the point. We went over all this a dozen times by now and some folks just have selective memories.

Paul Pless
01-25-2014, 10:50 AM
There's a 20 or 30 year drop in all other forms of gun violence as I recallthis includes school shootings?

Ian McColgin
01-25-2014, 11:03 AM
You cannot take aspects of violence out of context unless you want to tumble to a false conclusion.

Violent crime has been declining since the early ‘90s and consequently the pure number of firearms incidents has declined from 1994’s 1,287,190 incidents to 2011’s 414,562 incidents.* However, the portion of firearms incidents to all violent incidents was the same for both years - 8%. This indicates that whatever is going on in the reduction is not related to firearms related law enforcement or practices or much of anything.

*http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gun-violence/pages/welcome.aspx

Boston
01-25-2014, 11:11 AM
this includes school shootings?

Yup, if you map out all the known school shootings, population, all that jive you end up with a cyclical pattern that repeats itself over time. Went over this before as well. The availability of guns doesn't appear to be a factor.

School violence has been in a steep decline (http://www.npr.org/2012/03/16/148758783/violence-in-schools-how-big-a-problem-is-it)

Flying Orca
01-25-2014, 11:42 AM
I submit, if studied, that the rise in availability and popularity of these games would correlate with the rise in random violence in our society.

I submit that you haven't read the studies... because they've been done, and they don't support your hypothesis. ;)

slug
01-25-2014, 11:43 AM
Gang violence ??? Non sense. Stop looking for excuses. Do you think that the rest of the world has no gang problems ?

ahp
01-25-2014, 11:50 AM
I firmly believe there is a small minority of "men" that are itching to kill someone. Any little excuse will do. You don't know who they are until too late. The "open carry" and "concealed carry" lobby panders to these sociopaths.

slug
01-25-2014, 11:55 AM
If you have a gun you solve problems with it.

Bob Adams
01-25-2014, 12:29 PM
Gang violence ??? Non sense. Stop looking for excuses. Do you think that the rest of the world has no gang problems ?

"Drug" violence would have been a better choice of word. Anyone who lives near a major city can attest to this.

Boston
01-25-2014, 12:39 PM
I live "in" a major city and I was a bouncer at one of the clubs down town for several decades. I can most assuredly say that drugs drive much of the gang activity. And of course gangs exist in other countries, and gang violence exists in other countries as well. Which is one reason the US has an average homicide rate. Other countries, regardless of gun laws are experiencing the same kinda gang related violence. The US homicide rate is pretty much right smack in the middle of all other countries, yet we have the highest gun ownership rates anywhere. Kinda throws a wrench into the whole anti gun squads logic doesn't it.

Reality is that school violence is in sharp decline. The US has an exactly average homicide rate while at the same time gun ownership is threw the roof. Thems the facts people, feel free to ignore them at your convenience

Oh and I'll arm my spectacular room mate with a bazooka if I can find one.

slug
01-25-2014, 12:55 PM
I live "in" a major city and I was a bouncer at one of the clubs down town for several decades. I can most assuredly say that drugs drive much of the gang activity. And of course gangs exist in other countries, and gang violence exists in other countries as well. Which is one reason the US has an average homicide rate. Other countries, regardless of gun laws are experiencing the same kinda gang related violence. The US homicide rate is pretty much right smack in the middle of all other countries, yet we have the highest gun ownership rates anywhere. Kinda throws a wrench into the whole anti gun squads logic doesn't it.

Reality is that school violence is in sharp decline. The US has an exactly average homicide rate while at the same time gun ownership is threw the roof. Thems the facts people, feel free to ignore them at your convenience

Oh and I'll arm my spectacular room mate with a bazooka if I can find one.


huh ?

http://s29.postimg.org/lufsdl68n/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
sube fotos (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=spanish)

Boston
01-25-2014, 01:25 PM
whats up with that short list ? , or is that your version of cherry picking, While I just detest bursting anyones bubble I'm going to have to point out that there's a few more countries that what you have listed there.

lets look at a map of countries and see just where the US fits in


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Map_of_world_by_intentional_homicide_rate.png/500px-Map_of_world_by_intentional_homicide_rate.png

The map basically goes lighter to darker, darker being the most and lighter being the least homicides per 100,000.

How about some hard numbers



From the World Health Organization:
The latest Murder Statistics for the world:
Murders per 100,000 citizens.
Honduras 91.6
El Salvador 69.2
Cote d'lvoire 56.9
Jamaica 52.2
Venezuela 45.1
Belize 41.4
US Virgin Islands 39.2
Guatemala 38.5
Saint Kits and Nevis 38.2
Zambia 38.0
Uganda 36.3
Malawi 36.0
Lesotho 35.2
Trinidad and Tobago 35.
South Africa 31.8
Congo 30.8
Central African Republic 29.3
Bahamas 27.4
Puerto Rico 26.2
Saint Lucia 25.2
Dominican Republic 25.0
Tanzania 24.5
Sudan 24.2
Saint Vincent
and the Grenadines. 22.9
Ethiopia 22.5
Guinea 22.5
Dominica 22.1
Burundi 21.7
Republic of the Congo 21.7
Panama 21.6
Brazil 21.0
Equatorial Guinea. 20.7
Guinea-Bissau 20.2
Kenya 20.1
Kyrgyzstan 20.1
Cameroon 19.7
Montserrat 19.7
Greenland 19.2
Angola 19.0
Guyana 18.6
Burkina Faso 18.0
Eritrea 17.8
Namibia 17.2
Rwanda 17.1
Mexico 16.9
Chad 15.8
Ghana 15.7
Ecuador 15.2
North Korea 15.2
Benin 15.1
Sierra Leone 14.9
Mauritania 14.7
Botswana 14.5
Zimbabwe 14.3
Gabon 13.8
Nicaragua 13.6
French Guiana 13.3
Papua New Guinea 13.0
Swaziland 12.9
Bermuda 12.3
Comoros 12.2
Nigeria 12.2
Cape Verde 11.6
Grenada 11.5
Paraguay 11.5
Barbados 11.3
Togo 10.9
Gambia 10.8
Peru 10.8
Myanmar 10.2
Russia 10.2
Liberia 10.1
Cost Rica 10.1
Nauru 9.8
Bolivia 8.9
Mozambique 8.8
Kazakhstan 8.8
Senegal 8.7
Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7
Mongolia 8.7
British Virgin Islands 8.6
Cayman Islands 8.4
Seychelles 8.3
Madagascar 8.1
Indonesia 8.1
Mali 8.0
Pakistan 7.8
Moldova 7.5
Kiribati 7.3
Guadeloupe 7.0
Haiti 6.9
Timor-Leste 6.9
Anguilla 6.8
Antigua and Barbuda 6.8
Lithuania 6.6
Uruguay 5.9
Philippines 5.4
Ukraine 5.2
Estonia 5.2
Cuba 5.0
Belarus 4.9
Thailand 4.8
Suriname 4.6
Laos 4.6
Georgia 4.3
Martinique 4.2
And ...................
The United States 4.2 <-------------
ALL the countries above
America have 100% gun bans.
It might be of interest to note that
SWITZERLAND (not shown on this list) has NO MURDER
OCCURRENCE!

Boston
01-25-2014, 01:36 PM
Another issue that boils down to those famous words

you aint gong to learn
what you don't want to know

Bob Cleek
01-25-2014, 02:11 PM
Gun culture - where Cabelas and the like routinely advertise their assault weapons and high capacity handguns - is a dramatic departure from what I grew up with. Commercialized hunting - about all that's available in these parts anymore - where more often than not, you 'hunt' with 20 strangers, generally with blockers and a good chance of being sprayed with pellets - I don't consider that hunting. The NRA stance - the defense of assault weapons - none of that is anything I'm interested in. Ashamed of? Not how I'd phrase it. Disgusted sums it up better.

Sooo true! I've never eaten game that tasted better than what I could get at the butcher shop, and for a whole lot less trouble and expense, so what's the point of hunting? (Please... don't tell me it's "sport" to kept a full bucket of oats beneath your stand until opening day.) Target shooting, sure. Then again, I don't see how blasting apart watermelons at 25 yards with an M-16 on full auto could be any fun.... except maybe once, just to get the "idiot" out of your system, and it's hardly target shooting. Expensive, too, given the cost of ammo these days.

The problem is that when the "gun issue" got politicized, the "usual suspect" idiots all ran to the "pro-gun" side of the ship. (What difference does it make what tool somebody uses to do violence? It's the violence that's the issue.) They give everybody else a bad name.

The flip side, of course, are the "anti-gun-nuts." The "ban them all" types and the grandstanding legislators who can't miss a photo op with a "bad ass" looking "assault rifle," bleating about how their bill to outlaw possession of such is going to prevent the next psycho from "going postal."

The solution to the problem of emotionally disturbed people going on shooting rampages is relatively simple. Don't outlaw guns. Outlaw media coverage of such events. Yea, I know, "free speech" and all that, but turnabout is fair play. If people can promote overturning the Second Amendment, why can't I promote overturning the First? If CNN and Fox didn't ascribe to an "if it bleeds, it leads," programming policy, these whackos wouldn't have the opportunity for their "fifteen minutes of fame."

skuthorp
01-25-2014, 02:17 PM
"If CNN and Fox didn't ascribe to an "if it bleeds, it leads," programming policy, these whackos wouldn't have the opportunity for their "fifteen minutes of fame.""

I'd like to apply the same rule to politicians myself. But anyhow, with social media it's way too late, that cat is well out of the bag. Re the gun problem in the US, I think that it's intractable. If shooting a President and a schoolroom full of little kids doesn't change attitudes nothing will. You will just have to live, and die, with it.

George Jung
01-25-2014, 02:20 PM
Good point - and I recall Columbine, watching the media circus, and telling my wife there were going to be copycats. The media isn't getting any more responsible, or smarter.

In 'the old days', Cabelas promoted hunting firearms; nice shotguns, highpowered rifles (generally bolt action). Take a look at their ads now. Those guns are few and far between. What you will see suggests arming to go to war.

I don't care if Donn and company buy up every gun on the planet. My son in law (who now has most of my guns) is an 'enthusiast', but keeps his locked up. He's responsible. That's all I'm interested in. AFA hunting - again, the way I used to have access (alone, or one friend), I really enjoyed. Not much of an option anymore; the land is tied up, with commercialized hunting, generally in large groups, for game birds. Deer/antelope necessitates access to land, as well - most of which is also privately controlled and/or inaccessible. Personally I support deer hunting - but have no desire to do so myself.

Donn
01-25-2014, 02:31 PM
In 'the old days', Cabelas promoted hunting firearms; nice shotguns, highpowered rifles (generally bolt action). Take a look at their ads now. Those guns are few and far between. What you will see suggests arming to go to war.

Here's a screenshot of Cabela's centerfire rifle selection at this moment:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/donnwest/misc/cabelas.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/donnwest/media/misc/cabelas.jpg.html)

Bob Cleek
01-25-2014, 02:36 PM
"If CNN and Fox didn't ascribe to an "if it bleeds, it leads," programming policy, these whackos wouldn't have the opportunity for their "fifteen minutes of fame.""

I'd like to apply the same rule to politicians myself. But anyhow, with social media it's way too late, that cat is well out of the bag. Re the gun problem in the US, I think that it's intractable. If shooting a President and a schoolroom full of little kids doesn't change attitudes nothing will. You will just have to live, and die, with it.

What attitude is "Shooting a schoolroom full of little kids" going to change? I think it's fair to say that everybody has made up their mind on that, one way or the other. Is there anybody who supports "shooting up schoolrooms full of little kids?" I certainly oppose shooting anybody. I'd hope most people do. People who "shoot up schoolrooms full of kids" are aberrations... people who are psychologically unhinged. Attempting to remove the means by which such people do the horrendous things they do certainly has a seductive appeal to it, but it is a simplistic response. While we do what we can, preventing crazy people from occasionally doing something horrible when they act out by outlawing whatever they do it with is kinda like a never-ending high-stakes game of Whack-A-Mole. When McVey blew up a daycare center in the Oklahoma City federal building, I didn't hear anybody waxing eloquent about how we have to outlaw fertilizer and diesel fuel. If you go off in that direction, the next thing you know, there's no end to the things sane people need and use every day that you are going to have to outlaw, license, or regulate.

Try as we might, "sheet happens," and we need to learn to live with that. Firearms are just a symbol that ignorant people on both extremes of our current "culture war" rally around, for or against, as some sort of badge of their affiliation with one side or the other. I have no truck with either of them.

George Jung
01-25-2014, 02:40 PM
Yep. Click on some of the sections - in particular, the semi-auto rifles, and the shotguns - see what comes up.

Bob Cleek
01-25-2014, 02:40 PM
My son in law (who now has most of my guns)...

I've heard of fathers going to great lengths to get their daughters married off, but this is probably the best one yet! Any gal with a dad like you, George, definitely deserves a hard look! :D :D :D

George Jung
01-25-2014, 02:42 PM
Actually, Bob, it is much more difficult to get fertilizer (in those quantities) than previously, as a result of such craziness.

George Jung
01-25-2014, 02:43 PM
Desperate times, Bob. Just sayin'.

skuthorp
01-25-2014, 02:46 PM
Quote Bob Cleek: "People who "shoot up schoolrooms full of kids" are aberrations... people who are psychologically unhinged."
That's an excuse in itself Bob. Self interest rules, as long as it's not my family and friends and kids that get targeted. It's cultural. Collateral damage.

Donn
01-25-2014, 02:47 PM
Yep. Click on some of the sections - in particular, the semi-auto rifles, and the shotguns - see what comes up.

I have. They carry more than twice as many sporting arms than those considered "tactical."

George Jung
01-25-2014, 03:15 PM
What is a 'sporting goods' company doing selling tactical weapons in the first place? These are not designed for hunting.

pefjr
01-25-2014, 03:43 PM
What is a 'sporting goods' company doing selling tactical weapons in the first place? These are not designed for hunting.In the South when I was young they sold spear guns, I always bought the single rubber 36" gun , the second smallest made. I stayed with that size for the entire 35 yrs that I spearfished, still have one but have not spearfished in 20 yrs. However they were many bigger guns if you have ever looked at spear guns. I guess they sold them because it was legal and there was more profit, but in 40 yrs. I never needed a bigger gun even when I went a few times in deep off shore waters. The line was about 200 lb test, and fly fishermen were catching sailfish on 20lb test with a steel leader of course. It is all overkill for big profits. The commercialization of a SCOTUS created loophole.

Paul Pless
01-25-2014, 03:46 PM
What is a 'sporting goods' company doing selling tactical weapons in the first place? These are not designed for hunting.the history of tactical weapon being used as sporting arms goes back a ways in the u.s.

the kentucky rifle
the trapdoor
mauser 98
1903 springfield
m1

were all front line tactical weapons in their day, they all were and remain spectacularly popular sporting firearms. . .

Donn
01-25-2014, 04:09 PM
What is a 'sporting goods' company doing selling tactical weapons in the first place? These are not designed for hunting.

Hunting is not the only sport for firearms.

Waddie
01-25-2014, 04:23 PM
The AR15 is the most popular target rifle of all time. I've been to matches where every rifle on the line was an AR15 (or variant). In handgun target shooting the number one is the 1911. I've also been to matches where every competitor had a 1911.

regards,
Waddie

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 04:29 PM
What is a 'sporting goods' company doing selling tactical weapons in the first place? These are not designed for hunting.

George, George... know ye not that the word, the very word 'tactical is a marketing gimik? it is possible to buy almost any 'sporting' device or clothing item in a 'tactical' version... someone prolly even has tactical tolit paper!

Donn
01-25-2014, 04:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aqFmQJ-v4o

SMARTINSEN
01-25-2014, 04:37 PM
Yet another mall shooting:



http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/howard/columbia/bs-md-columbia-mall-shooting-20140125,0,967893.story (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/howard/columbia/bs-md-columbia-mall-shooting-20140125,0,967893.story)

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 04:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aqFmQJ-v4o

What joy!... and I predicted it long ago

George Jung
01-25-2014, 04:52 PM
the history of tactical weapon being used as sporting arms goes back a ways in the u.s.

the kentucky rifle
the trapdoor
mauser 98
1903 springfield
m1

were all front line tactical weapons in their day, they all were and remain spectacularly popular sporting firearms. . .

how many of those have been featured in any of the mass shootings?

Donn
01-25-2014, 05:36 PM
how many of those have been featured in any of the mass shootings?

One of the weapons used by Charles Whitman was an M1.

George Jung
01-25-2014, 05:39 PM
1966. How long did it take to find this 'outlier'?

Donn
01-25-2014, 05:51 PM
1966. How long did it take to find this 'outlier'?

No time at all. I can remember 1966. The other firearms he used were sporting arms.

Do you have a point, George?

Paul Pless
01-25-2014, 05:54 PM
fwiw, long guns are used the least by a wide margin in criminal acts

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 05:56 PM
One of the weapons used by Charles Whitman was an M1.

wasn't one of them a 6mm bolt rifle?

George Jung
01-25-2014, 05:57 PM
Assault weapons weren't the 'rage' back then - but what he chose fit that description, for that time. Look at more recent massacres; sporting arms aren't highly represented.

Tom Montgomery
01-25-2014, 05:58 PM
No time at all. I can remember 1966. The other firearms he used were sporting arms.

Do you have a point, George?
In statistics, an outlier is an observation point that is distant from other observations.

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 05:59 PM
Assault weapons weren't the 'rage' back then - but what he chose fit that description, for that time. Look at more recent massacres; sporting arms aren't highly represented.

since the 'guns' weren't generally vailable... then it must not be violent guns... right

George Jung
01-25-2014, 06:00 PM
I have no idea what you're saying, Phillip - but that you 'go to bat' on every gun thread is telling.

Paul Pless
01-25-2014, 06:05 PM
Phillip - but that you 'go to bat' on every gun thread is telling.kind of glad to see it today, must mean he's felling better :D

for a few days there he let some cop and gun threads pass by without comment. . .

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 06:05 PM
I have no idea what you're saying, Phillip - but that you 'go to bat' on every gun thread is telling.

do you think that automatically defeats my points?

check out the anti crowd that does the same thing... no criticism for them?

George Jung
01-25-2014, 06:08 PM
Haven't seen them post in quite a bit here, Phillip. Just you and Donn. And yes, you're pretty much single-minded on this issue.

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 06:09 PM
Haven't seen them post in quite a bit here, Phillip. Just you and Donn. And yes, you're pretty much single-minded on this issue.

look again

Paul Pless
01-25-2014, 06:10 PM
check out the anti crowd that does the same thing... no criticism for them?yes, there's just as many rabid gun control absolutist dorks that hold dichotomous views to you and your rabid pro gun rights 2nd amendment absolutist dorkiness

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 06:12 PM
yes, there's just as many rabid gun control absolutist dorks that hold dichotomous views to you and your rabid pro gun rights 2nd amendment absolutist dorkiness

the absolutist distinction is not mine... but it helps weak arguments to say so

McMike
01-25-2014, 06:42 PM
Another two innocent dead in MD.

Willin'
01-25-2014, 06:49 PM
Another two innocent dead in MD.

Thanks McMike. Just as in the old days when it was OK by the smokers when innocents die of lung cancer from second hand smoke, despite the 'suspect' statistics that claim that gun violence is on the decline relative to the number of guns out there, innocent deaths by guns will always be absolute and absolutely preventable.

As a percentage they are small. As individuals they are huge.

PhaseLockedLoop
01-25-2014, 06:50 PM
1966. How long did it take to find this 'outlier'?

Some of us have memories, George. And some of us are old.

Bob Adams
01-25-2014, 07:44 PM
Another two innocent dead in MD.

And you knew it hundreds of miles away almost instantly. If it bleeds, it leads. The local news has been all over this, I'll wait till morning to really watch it, tons of speculation now.

George Jung
01-25-2014, 07:46 PM
Some of us have memories, George. And some of us are old.


.... and which has virtually nothing to do with the topic at hand.

McMike
01-25-2014, 08:04 PM
And you knew it hundreds of miles away almost instantly. If it bleeds, it leads. The local news has been all over this, I'll wait till morning to really watch it, tons of speculation now.

And then, in the morning, when you find out it was exactly what we've seen ... How many times this month? Then what? Status quo? When will you be outraged at Americas compleat lack of responsibility?

bobbys
01-25-2014, 08:32 PM
Those WWII movies were very good at demonizing and dehumanizing Japs. Because what we needed then were cold hearted killers who would have no pangs of regret about killing. I think they call it de-sensitizing. The media is still very good at producing these kinds of movies, songs and games today. Thanks for making my point.

regards,
Waddie
Yes and that's why I object to "tea bagger" but no lib understands the danger of name calling .
well I should correct myself they do understand it, it benifits them and their agenda.

hokiefan
01-25-2014, 08:36 PM
Yes and that's why I object to "tea bagger" but no lib understands the danger of name calling .
well I should correct myself they do understand it, it benifits them and their agenda.

The tea baggers picked the name for themselves. Shows how truly ignorant they are.

Cheers,

Bobby

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 08:38 PM
Yes and that's why I object to "tea bagger" but no lib understands the danger of name calling .
well I should correct myself they do understand it, it benifits them and their agenda.

they don't get it...

bobbys
01-25-2014, 08:41 PM
Sooo true! I've never eaten game that tasted better than what I could get at the butcher shop, and for a whole lot less trouble and expense, so what's the point of hunting? (Please... don't tell me it's "sport" to kept a full bucket of oats beneath your stand until opening day.) Target shooting, sure. Then again, I don't see how blasting apart watermelons at 25 yards with an M-16 on full auto could be any fun.... except maybe once, just to get the "idiot" out of your system, and it's hardly target shooting. Expensive, too, given the cost of ammo these days.

The problem is that when the "gun issue" got politicized, the "usual suspect" idiots all ran to the "pro-gun" side of the ship. (What difference does it make what tool somebody uses to do violence? It's the violence that's the issue.) They give everybody else a bad name.

The flip side, of course, are the "anti-gun-nuts." The "ban them all" types and the grandstanding legislators who can't miss a photo op with a "bad ass" looking "assault rifle," bleating about how their bill to outlaw possession of such is going to prevent the next psycho from "going postal."

The solution to the problem of emotionally disturbed people going on shooting rampages is relatively simple. Don't outlaw guns. Outlaw media coverage of such events. Yea, I know, "free speech" and all that, but turnabout is fair play. If people can promote overturning the Second Amendment, why can't I promote overturning the First? If CNN and Fox didn't ascribe to an "if it bleeds, it leads," programming policy, these whackos wouldn't have the opportunity for their "fifteen minutes of fame."
never had a bucket of oats to bait with and have never baited, never shot a watermelon and I have no m16 just Rifles used for hunting, W e eat deer and elk and bear and ducks.

bobbys
01-25-2014, 08:42 PM
The tea baggers picked the name for themselves. Shows how truly ignorant they are.

Cheers,

Bobby
See what I mean the ole they want to be called it song and dance again, thanks for making my point.

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 08:43 PM
The tea baggers picked the name for themselves. Shows how truly ignorant they are.

Cheers,

Bobby

that's the same line that the bully says when he shouts "he was asking for it"... shame on you

bobbys
01-25-2014, 08:47 PM
Gun culture - where Cabelas and the like routinely advertise their assault weapons and high capacity handguns - is a dramatic departure from what I grew up with. Commercialized hunting - about all that's available in these parts anymore - where more often than not, you 'hunt' with 20 strangers, generally with blockers and a good chance of being sprayed with pellets - I don't consider that hunting. The NRA stance - the defense of assault weapons - none of that is anything I'm interested in. Ashamed of? Not how I'd phrase it. Disgusted sums it up better.
There are other places then Nebraska..

never have seen this hunting you mention to paint all hunting.

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 08:49 PM
There are other places then Nebraska..

never have seen this hunting you mention to paint all hunting.

both sides here like to paint with a violent brush

bobbys
01-25-2014, 08:51 PM
that's the same line that the bully says when he shouts "he was asking for it"... shame on you
Well if bobby wants to he is welcome to come to our counties next tea party meeting and call people that name face to face and see how it works out for him.".

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 08:55 PM
Yet another mall shooting:



http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/howard/columbia/bs-md-columbia-mall-shooting-20140125,0,967893.story (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/howard/columbia/bs-md-columbia-mall-shooting-20140125,0,967893.story)

a murder-suicide... no one actually shot the mall

bobbys
01-25-2014, 08:57 PM
In your business I imagine you see the results of gun madness.
As to fishing, a pole and bait does not relay the symbolism of a certain part of the male anatomy to tired old men.
you can read motorcycle and fast car threads right here and you will read more macho ism and pee Nile projection then any gun thread..

not that I'm above 100 horses under my butt.

bobbys
01-25-2014, 08:59 PM
We live in a "head shot" society. Shooter games (Modern Warfare and the like) have made some vulnerable people completely de-sensitized to the depravity of their acts. I submit, if studied, that the rise in availability and popularity of these games would correlate with the rise in random violence in our society. I don't think it's the sole reason, but just another link in the chain.
if I turn on the TV. There are always at least 4shows any given time with actors shooting guns, tHere are also ads with nerds inserted into video games shooting and blowing up anyone they see.

WTF?

Phillip Allen
01-25-2014, 09:01 PM
you can read motorcycle and fast car threads right here and you will read more macho ism and pee Nile projection then any gun thread..

not that I'm above 100 horses under my butt.

nailed it...
I like the one that vilifies guns as 'designed to kill little children'... a very slight exaggeration of course. That, said... NASCAR is based on illegal whiskey running and the killing and mayhem that went along with it.

Curtism
01-25-2014, 09:10 PM
Whoo wee, we have the echo-chamber running at full bore now, eh?

Party on, Garth.

SMARTINSEN
01-25-2014, 09:20 PM
a murder-suicide... no one actually shot the mall

You write that as you sound vindicated for some reason, I find the episode tragically sad. I am glad that you are feeling better, but damn, you are tedious when talking about guns.

Party on, Garth.

hokiefan
01-25-2014, 09:31 PM
that's the same line that the bully says when he shouts "he was asking for it"... shame on you

There is no shame on me. They picked the name, they have to live with it. Nut jobs all...

bobbys
01-25-2014, 09:35 PM
There is no shame on me. They picked the name, they have to live with it. Nut jobs all...
actually your the one that should see a shrink when you classify all people as nuts and give them a name that implies a sexual act.

hokiefan
01-25-2014, 09:44 PM
actually your the one that should see a shrink when you classify all people as nuts and give them a name that implies a sexual act.

I didn't give them the name, they picked it for themselves. Get over it.

Bob Adams
01-26-2014, 09:18 AM
I just read the morning paper. (Baltimore Sun) I predict the furor will die down quickly, as a shotgun was used instead of an evil hand gun or assault style rifle. I understand improvised explosives were found but not used. Again I question media's role in inspiring this type of horror. In the same paper, reporter David Zurawik rated the local TV stations hustle (suprisingly, non local CNN took top "honors") in getting to the scene then lamenting that the local Fox affilliate "only" provided 30 minutes of coverage. A few days ago, this same paper ran a story about a man who called 911 to make sure his story got out, shortly before he killed himself. His "story" was the murders he committed and felt cheated because they didn't get intense coverage. You didn't hear about them because they looked like the "normal" corner store in the city drug gang related murders. One of the surviors said, paraphrasing here, "He didn't want to steal, he just wanted to kill". Should the media apply some restraint? Food for thought.

McMike
01-26-2014, 09:27 AM
Right Bob, so no outrage . . . Huh.

Bob Adams
01-26-2014, 09:29 AM
Right Bob, so no outrage . . . Huh.

So that's the only part of my post worth comment? As to it's validity, we'll know in a couple days.

Paul Pless
01-26-2014, 09:35 AM
nailed it...pretty typical response from phillip, grasping at anything to deflect from the topic of gun violence


That, said... NASCAR is based on illegal whiskey running and the killing and mayhem that went along with it.NASCAR hasn't had much to do with bootlegging in more than fifty years.

Nicholas Scheuer
01-26-2014, 09:39 AM
How come there was no Concealed Carry in the Mall to save the day?

Bob Adams
01-26-2014, 09:51 AM
How come there was no Concealed Carry in the Mall to save the day?

In Maryland, the average citizen cannot get a CC permit.

George Jung
01-26-2014, 10:48 AM
I'd actually agree with about everything you said, Bob. Most definitely the media plays a major role, and responsibility in these cases.

Boston
01-26-2014, 11:04 AM
And then, in the morning, when you find out it was exactly what we've seen ... How many times this month? Then what? Status quo? When will you be outraged at Americas compleat lack of responsibility?

lack of responsibility ???? more like a few scattered acts of insanity, spread out throughout the worlds history. You must not be aware of the actual statistics. School violence in sharp decline, USAs almost exactly average homicide rate. Crime down across the board, all that is except gang related crime. The facts simply don't support the anti gun lobby's agenda. The fact is that my girl and a significant portion of my female friends carry because it keeps them safe. Go take a look at the incidence of rape vs incidence of gun ownership/anti gun laws in various countries and get back to us.

Course we've been over that before as well. But I guess its just a bit to inconvenient to actually remember.

Phillip Allen
01-26-2014, 11:12 AM
NASCAR=killing and mahem... Paul

'designed to kill' cuts both ways

Paul Pless
01-26-2014, 11:15 AM
NASCAR=killing and mahem... Paul???

Phillip Allen
01-26-2014, 11:16 AM
ya don't get to have it both ways

Paul Pless
01-26-2014, 11:20 AM
I really have no idea what you're going on about Phillip, comparing willing participants in what can admittedly be a dangerous sport, to criminal gun violence in America; what's your point? Do you even have one?

S/V Laura Ellen
01-26-2014, 11:33 AM
NASCAR=killing and mahem... Paul

'designed to kill' cuts both ways

That has got to be one of the most uniformed and biased things I've heard in a long time.
The NASCAR cars are designed to protect the driver.
A great deal of safety innovation and design go into the cars and tracks.
The fact that drivers now survive what once would have been fatal crashes is clear testimony to how wrong you actually are.

George Jung
01-26-2014, 11:36 AM
But ya gotta admit it's a 'cool', really dangerous sport! The key is 'willing participation', taking all precautions allowable. Equating with shooting up kids in a school.... not so much.

Boston
01-26-2014, 01:10 PM
Maybe, but consider the preferred method of mass murder by insane people in some other countries, car bombings. Where's the call to ban cars. Ok big deal they are registered, didn't prevent Deadly bombings rock Cairo on uprising anniversary eve - Yahoo ... (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://news.yahoo.com/car-bomb-cairo-police-hq-kills-least-one-054540372.html&sa=U&ei=tE7lUrvWDKSMyAHL7YGgDQ&ved=0CEIQFjAJ&sig2=8M7Td7QFxiMnqyCbxUtBzQ&usg=AFQjCNHcNCjVKxxWCpJiPYukxeRSIRmsqA) The simple truth is that its not the car just like its not the gun. Big deal they're licensed, didn't stop this one At least 11 killed, 40 injured in double car bomb attack in Somalia ... (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/02/world/africa/somalia-car-bomb-attack/&sa=U&ei=tE7lUrvWDKSMyAHL7YGgDQ&ved=0CE0QFjAL&sig2=TnbOXBKPx2P2t0F-ruW8tw&usg=AFQjCNEhcHoxK7jnsmHY3AS05NJ6_lN6nw) If we were to take an honest look at the tools used to commit mass murder throughout the world, the car bomb would likely be one our top weapons of choice. Yet where's the cry to ban cars ?

The anti gun nuts logic just doesn't wash

I want my girl armed to the teeth. If that bag of hers could carry a 50 cal. I'd buy her one.

Bob Adams
01-26-2014, 01:25 PM
NASCAR=killing and mahem... Paul

'designed to kill' cuts both ways

Phillip, as a fellow firearms owner, I have to tell you, this is not helping. At least be factual, NASCAR is NOT about killing and mayhem. It IS a dangerous sport, with numerous rules and regulations to make it as safe as possible.

George Jung
01-26-2014, 01:32 PM
Boston, that's one of the wackiest 'arguments' I've seen - it does your position no good. But 'gun enthusiasts' defend this crap like it's an assault on their religion; lots of hyperbole and emotion, very little constructive thought or ideas.

Personally, I don't care if folks have guns, whatever type - I just want a move towards more responsibility - keeping them locked up and inaccessible to those who shouldn't have access. BF has talked about how it's done in Australia; it's an example, and imo, a reasonable approach. This idea that everyone (Boston) needs to be 'packing heat' for immediate repelling of an impending assault... man, that's over the top. Carry concealed; pass the background check that ensures you should have that right. But a gun at every bedside, for that impending home invasion - really?

It'd be nice if cooler heads might prevail.

pefjr
01-26-2014, 02:16 PM
The tea baggers picked the name for themselves. Shows how truly ignorant they are.

Cheers,

BobbyYour comment reveals the source of true ignorance. I think the TP picked the name from the Boston Tea Party in our History books. I had forgotten about the sexual term until bobbys mentioned it. To relate a political party to a sexual act and then try to call the political party ignorant for using it is ironic, coming from a jackass. ROFL.

Boston
01-26-2014, 02:54 PM
Boston, that's one of the wackiest 'arguments' I've seen - it does your position no good. But 'gun enthusiasts' defend this crap like it's an assault on their religion; lots of hyperbole and emotion, very little constructive thought or ideas.

Personally, I don't care if folks have guns, whatever type - I just want a move towards more responsibility - keeping them locked up and inaccessible to those who shouldn't have access. BF has talked about how it's done in Australia; it's an example, and imo, a reasonable approach. This idea that everyone (Boston) needs to be 'packing heat' for immediate repelling of an impending assault... man, that's over the top. Carry concealed; pass the background check that ensures you should have that right. But a gun at every bedside, for that impending home invasion - really?

It'd be nice if cooler heads might prevail.


Looks to me like we agree on something. The logic path seems ridiculous when applied to other forms of weapons ? If the logic to ban cars is ridiculous, then the logic to ban guns is also

I guess it might also be worth a mention that if your comfortable with your girl/wife whatever walking around helpless to defend herself, no problem, your free to do exactly that. I on the other hand have the right to arm my loved ones and thats exactly what I'm going to do. Whats the problem ? You'd prefer my girl have no chance to defend herself ?

Sorry but you can twist the logic and misrepresent my statements by suggesting it is I who is the one carrying, but its not. Even when I bounced three nights a week down town I never carried a gun. I still don't carry. Try as you might to believe otherwise. But I sure encourage my spectacular roomy to carry, at all times.

Like it or not my opinion is based purely on keeping my loved ones able to defend themselves. More regulation does nothing to further that end.

Oh and my neighbors. someone kicked in their front door two years ago, ran through the house till they found a laptop, grabbed it and split out the backdoor to a car waiting in the alley. The neighbors wife was in at the time. Unarmed. I took a shotgun over there about five seconds after I heard about it and began teaching her how to use it.

I'd have given it to them, but they insisted on paying for it.

Something else we agree on, cooler heads will prevail. a rational look at the actual statistics reveals clearly that in general the US population are extremely responsible gun owners.

Phillip Allen
01-26-2014, 05:42 PM
Looks to me like we agree on something. The logic path seems ridiculous when applied to other forms of weapons ? If the logic to ban cars is ridiculous, then the logic to ban guns is also

I guess it might also be worth a mention that if your comfortable with your girl/wife whatever walking around helpless to defend herself, no problem, your free to do exactly that. I on the other hand have the right to arm my loved ones and thats exactly what I'm going to do. Whats the problem ? You'd prefer my girl have no chance to defend herself ?

Sorry but you can twist the logic and misrepresent my statements by suggesting it is I who is the one carrying, but its not. Even when I bounced three nights a week down town I never carried a gun. I still don't carry. Try as you might to believe otherwise. But I sure encourage my spectacular roomy to carry, at all times.

Like it or not my opinion is based purely on keeping my loved ones able to defend themselves. More regulation does nothing to further that end.

Oh and my neighbors. someone kicked in their front door two years ago, ran through the house till they found a laptop, grabbed it and split out the backdoor to a car waiting in the alley. The neighbors wife was in at the time. Unarmed. I took a shotgun over there about five seconds after I heard about it and began teaching her how to use it.

I'd have given it to them, but they insisted on paying for it.

Something else we agree on, cooler heads will prevail. a rational look at the actual statistics reveals clearly that in general the US population are extremely responsible gun owners.

nothing very reasonable or logical with this bunch... their demands are based more on pollitical fashion than just about anything else... useful idiots... useful to 'someone' but not to themselves

Bob Adams
01-26-2014, 06:13 PM
On the Maryland mall shooting, Fox is catching up with saturation coverage right now. Minutes ago, the Howard County police spokesman has asked the media to refrain from badgering the victims families.

George Jung
01-26-2014, 06:46 PM
You're still shooting yourself in the .... foot... Phillip. Give it a rest.

Boston
01-26-2014, 09:53 PM
Yah I gotta say Phil that last made no sense whatsoever.

Deal is I live in a city, things aren't always all peaches and cream around here. We had a road rage shoot out just last summer right smack in front of the house. I came home to cops everywhere. Little orange and yellow tags all over the ground marking spent rounds. It was pure bedlam. Had the girl been home I'd have wanted her safe and sound, able to defend herself if someone tried to break in and hole up. Deal is I want my loved ones armed to the teeth. Why is that so hard for some people to accept.

You have a right to not own a gun and take whatever you get, I got a right to own a gun and at least have some control over my fate and the safety of those around me.

To each his own

Phillip Allen
01-26-2014, 10:05 PM
I've never had a gun that I acquired for self defense...something very basic about firearms is that most all would work if pressed into service so I don't sit around fantasizing about the things. my purchases are always about something else. I used to think I wanted to be a hunter but slowly discovered I'm too wimpy to be a hunter. I can do it and have done but I'd rather go camping with the gun than killing with the gun. I'd rather shoot the gun than to shoot the deer.

If somebody breaks into the house, I will press into service whatever comes to hand… prolly won’t even be a gun (I think I prefer a .375 caliber fireplace poker…) with the poker, I can always stop hitting but it’s problematic to unshoot someone. The trouble with the self defense thinking I’ve heard so much of is that someone will imagine a few scenarios and then if the bad guy(s) don’t oblige him by committing one of his imaginings, he’s left with having to make somewhat important decisions on the fly… without ever having ‘practiced’ making important decisions on the fly… no plan ‘B’. I’m just as likely to pick up a cap and ball revolver as a modern gun… they still work just fine

SMARTINSEN
01-26-2014, 10:14 PM
Two men shot to death by homeowner (http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDATE-Two-Men-Shot-to-Death-by-Homeowner-in-Barboursville-241973841.html)



This is just f***ing insane, thread title could not be more apt.

Phillip Allen
01-26-2014, 10:21 PM
Two men shot to death by homeowner (http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDATE-Two-Men-Shot-to-Death-by-Homeowner-in-Barboursville-241973841.html)



This is just f***ing insane, thread title could not be more apt.

yep... insane. I'm not even gonna try to make sense of it, it won't change anything and will only make my head hurt in the attempt

Donn
01-26-2014, 10:22 PM
This is just f***ing insane, thread title could not be more apt.

Thanks for bringing it to us. That's more insane.

Boston
01-26-2014, 10:27 PM
The insane part is that it doesn't matter what the statistics actually are or that school shootings are way way down. The anti gun nuts will still be trying to impose their views on others. How about if, since in the USA we have a constitutional right to own or not own a gun, we exorcize it as we each see fit ?

I'm still not exactly clear on why it is you'd prefer my girl be unable to defend herself.

Donn
01-26-2014, 10:29 PM
I'm still not exactly clear on why it is you'd prefer my girl be unable to defend herself.

How many times are you going to repeat this mantra? It's getting old.

Bob Cleek
01-26-2014, 10:56 PM
I want my girl armed to the teeth. If that bag of hers could carry a 50 cal. I'd buy her one.

Oh, but it will, it will. Any "gun nut" ought to know that!

The Desert Eagle 50 is a nice option. It'll set you back about two grand, but, hell, it packs a whallop like a brick going through a plate glass window. Looks wicked cool, too. Makes Dirty Harry's old six-shot S&W .44 magnum look like a pop gun. Harry's .44 will "blow your head clean off." The .50 will "turn your head into a pink mist." And you don't have to worry about the inconvenience of those pesky "assault rifle" bans.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/390109000/390109301/pix096170382.jpg

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=390109301#PIC

Boston
01-26-2014, 10:57 PM
Steve , even if the shed was his , is that any reason to just kill them ?.
According to Boston it would be. <---- clearly you have no clue what your talking about.
If the shed was his , and was broken in to by these 2 men , would they automatically get the firing squad ?.

What is the difference between the law , and a homeowner judge jury and executioner ?.
It truelly astounds me.
Even Bostons example , of kids busting in to a house after a computer. He wants to make it in to a shooting war <---- again with the wild assumptions. WTF ???.
Rob J.

Yikes, And people wonder why I call them anti gun nuts

Boston
01-26-2014, 10:58 PM
How many times are you going to repeat this mantra?

until one of the anti gun nuts can come up with a decent answer.

Boston
01-26-2014, 11:01 PM
I know Bob but she couldn't effectively handle that size gun. She's about 5'7" and 125 wet. I'd buy her that bazooka, but she'd just leave it at home and take the PK

Peter Malcolm Jardine
01-26-2014, 11:02 PM
Happy New Year everyone! I can see from this thread that the usual bunch are frothing at the mouth and speaking in tongues when anyone even mildly suggests that what the rest of the world has done in regards to gun violence might be the path to follow.

Well done I say, well done :D

Peter Malcolm Jardine
01-26-2014, 11:05 PM
I'm still not exactly clear on why it is you'd prefer my girl be unable to defend herself.


On the contrary, I think she should heavily armed at all times, with many multi round clips available for reloading. Shoot anything that moves. or talks, or wiggles. Shoot em all, let God sort them out.

Donn
01-26-2014, 11:16 PM
This anology is false. It's not the car that is the wepon, it is the bomb. And the bomb is illegal. To follow your line of reasoning, a shooting in a school would result in the banning of schools.

Well, then...it isn't the gun, but the bullet...right?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
01-26-2014, 11:20 PM
Yes, yes YES, comparing the USA to Somalia as a peer group!!!

GO GO GO!!!!!!

SMARTINSEN
01-26-2014, 11:56 PM
Pat Ford has it right in what he wrote when he started this thread:

"It is not the anti-gun people who are going to make this right. It is the pro-gun people who know better, who see this slaughter for what it is, who will make this right."

Bob Adams
01-27-2014, 06:03 AM
Two men shot to death by homeowner (http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDATE-Two-Men-Shot-to-Death-by-Homeowner-in-Barboursville-241973841.html)



This is just f***ing insane, thread title could not be more apt.

Yup. Even had those two been breaking into the shed, the shooting would not be justified. The shooter is being charged with homicide, as he should be.

Phillip Allen
01-27-2014, 07:03 AM
Well, then...it isn't the gun, but the bullet...right?

that ought to settle his hash... but it won't... for some there is simply no shame

Phillip Allen
01-27-2014, 07:05 AM
Yup. Even had those two been breaking into the shed, the shooting would not be justified. The shooter is being charged with homicide, as he should be.

you're right of course... but that old haunting question still naggs... "what was he thinking?"

Curtism
01-27-2014, 07:36 AM
There we go trying to assign shame to others, again, while oblivious of the plank in his own eye.

And I especially like the "heads blown off" and "pink spray" talk. That's just the sort of testosterone-fueled bullfeathers that the firearms industry profits so handsomely from. I seriously doubt anyone who ever had to do that to a fellow human, such as during one of our hearts-and-mind winning missions, would be able to make jokes about such fantasies.

Boston
01-27-2014, 12:19 PM
Yawn