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David G
01-20-2014, 04:43 PM
Some thoughts on common thoughts:

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/five-big-myths-green-cars-gas-mileage-debunked-165414250.html

Flying Orca
01-20-2014, 04:47 PM
Interesting read, thanks.

slug
01-20-2014, 04:49 PM
Hmm...something fishy. How much energy does it take to harvest, refine and transport one gallon of gas to the consumer ?

if you save one gallon of gas with a better car , you eliminate this production and transport of fuel cost.

LeeG
01-20-2014, 04:51 PM
Anything about best cars for romping around in the back seat ?

Garret
01-20-2014, 04:59 PM
Anything about best cars for romping around in the back seat ?

VW used to offer a $100 scholarship (or some token amount like that) for every baby born in a bug. Car & Driver opined that it really should be for every baby conceived in one - as that was an even tougher thing to do.

I had a Mercedes 190 that had a reclining front bench seat that I would rank very high in your category - even if it wasn't the back seat..... Now my 59 GMC suburban had a full size mattress in the back. Would that count?

David G
01-20-2014, 05:01 PM
Anything about best cars for romping around in the back seat ?

Why would that be relevant to you, ya ol' coot??? <G>

David G
01-20-2014, 05:06 PM
Hmm...something fishy. How much energy does it take to harvest, refine and transport one gallon of gas to the consumer ?

if you save one gallon of gas with a better car , you eliminate this production and transport of fuel cost.


Good call Slug.

Point #4 smells too.

It is not more green to buy a new car if you don't drive much.

I claim no expertise when it comes to either point - but am more inclined to believe someone in the industry rather than the random musings from someone in the Bilge. Maybe you could find some evidence/data to support your musings... and better educate us all.

My only thought on the points you've raised is that the marginal cost of one gallon of gas would likely approach trivial in the whole equation... but that's just a hunch.

Garret
01-20-2014, 05:12 PM
Good call Slug.

Point #4 smells too.

It is not more green to buy a new car if you don't drive much.

These are averages. It really makes sense if you drive a lot, sorta if you drive a medium amount & doesn't if you drive little.

As far as # 4 goes - they do list 19% for refining & extraction.

slug
01-20-2014, 05:12 PM
A hybrid type like the Toyota uses 50kg of copper. I wonder what the energy implications are to mine and manufacture 50 kg of copper

David G
01-20-2014, 05:32 PM
A hybrid type like the Toyota uses 50kg of copper. I wonder what the energy implications are to mine and manufacture 50 kg of copper

Again...


Maybe you could find some evidence/data to support your musings... and better educate us all.

LeeG
01-20-2014, 05:33 PM
Why would that be relevant to you, ya ol' coot??? <G>

I can dream

Phillip Allen
01-20-2014, 05:36 PM
pretty much as I already knew...

Keith Wilson
01-20-2014, 05:40 PM
FWIW, Copper is easily recycled; only about half of US production is from newly mined ore. I expect the 19% figure takes that into account.

seanz
01-20-2014, 05:44 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Full Tilt http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=4038231#post4038231)

Good call Slug.

Point #4 smells too.

It is not more green to buy a new car if you don't drive much.


We are in the presence of genius. Save fuel, don't drive much.

skuthorp
01-20-2014, 06:21 PM
You have to look at the full picture, from mine to dump and all the energy use and recycle in between to get a true picture. I do not think this work has been done but I may be wrong, and it may be in all manufacturers parties interests for it not to be done comprehensively. It may be that on raw figures a 'green' vehicle uses more energy and produces more pollutants in it's useful life than a non-green one. For instance an electric car recharges from the grid of coal powered generating plants.
That is, of course without approaching peak oil and philosophical matters like the private ownership of vehicles in the first place.

Garret
01-20-2014, 06:25 PM
You have to look at the full picture, from mine to dump and all the energy use and recycle in between to get a true picture. I do not think this work has been done but I may be wrong, and it may be in all manufacturers parties interests for it not to be done comprehensively. It may be that on raw figures a 'green' vehicle uses more energy and produces more pollutants in it's useful life than a non-green one. For instance an electric car recharges from the grid of coal powered generating plants.
That is, of course without approaching peak oil and philosophical matters like the private ownership of vehicles in the first place.

From the article:


2. Electric cars "burn coal," so they pollute just as much as gasoline cars.
In most instances electric cars use energy far more efficiently than cars with combustion engines.
Granted, electric grids vary widely in the carbon they emit per kilowatt-hour.
On cleaner grids--including those in California, which will buy more plug-in electric cars than the next five states put together--the equivalency is close to 100 mpg. Which means no non-plug-in car will ever be as clean as an electric car there.

But a study last year by the Union of Concerned Scientists showed that an electric car running on the dirtiest grid in the country (ND or WV, for the record) has a wells-to-wheels carbon footprint almost equivalent to the best non-hybrid gasoline car, about 35 mpg.

skuthorp
01-20-2014, 06:43 PM
Thanks Garrett. I'll look it up when I've got the time.

Phillip Allen
01-20-2014, 07:34 PM
We are in the presence of genius. Save fuel, don't drive much.

about 400 miles/month for me... hows everyone else doing, I wonder?

Flying Orca
01-20-2014, 07:43 PM
about 400 miles/month for me... hows everyone else doing, I wonder?

That's about what I usually do. It would be a lot less if my parents lived closer to the city.

AnalogKid
01-20-2014, 08:06 PM
Point 2 is not an apples - apples comparison.

An electric vehicle will always be cleaner than a petrol or diesel. I've posted about it before, and there's a little fact about fossil fuels that gets ignored time and time again.

It takes a whole heap of electricity to refine crude oil into petrol and diesel. It takes so much infact, that you only get 85%of the energy out as usable fuel that you put in as electricity at the start.

So to do a proper well to wheels calculation for a petrol car, you have to consider the energy expended in drilling the crude oil, transporting it to the refinery, transporting the petrol from the refinery to the gas station and then the efficiency of the car. You also have to include the energy used in mining the coal and transporting it to the the power station in order to generate enough energy to refine the crude oil into petrol. This can never be less than the amount of energy used to recharge the electric car's batteries. Never.

Including the amount of effort used to convert black sludge into the high energy density fuel of convenience needs to be taken into consideration.

Tom Montgomery
01-20-2014, 09:25 PM
We are in the presence of genius. Save fuel, don't drive much.

I drive about 500 miles/month. 95% of that is my commute to and from work. If there were a public transportation option I would use it.

LeeG
01-20-2014, 09:59 PM
http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2010/05/01/hmn_feature7.html#PhotoSwipe1390273113076

That's a backseat

slug
01-21-2014, 03:05 AM
I see more and more of the Renault Twizzy cars around. These are city electric cars that are designed to replace polluting motor scooters and small cars...

when I speak to the owners they tell me that they are fun and very practical for city use.

To solve the fossil fuel, transport problem, people in the future will live differently. They will live in cities and these cities will have super efficient methods to transport people.

TomF
01-21-2014, 08:56 AM
I walk to/from work; most of our driving is errands around town. Very lucky to live where I do, so I can live how I do.

Very occasional longer trips - taking the Daughter & her stuff to Halifax for grad school, going with the boys to a Karate training in Quebec city, trundling about to various Highland Games with the younger lad and his snare drum.

The less I drive, the greener it is.