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genglandoh
01-20-2014, 01:03 PM
There are many people in the world who have made bad decisions and when the realization of their actions hit home that get depressed and may even consider suicide.
Some may have not studied in school and are in a low paying dead end job.
Some may have maxed out their credit and are living pay check to pay check.

It does not matter what the exact situation is, I always tell people (including my own kids)
1. Recognize the problem (donít blame it on others)
2. Remember you can fix anything. (donít expect other to fix your problems)

Some may wonder why I am starting this thread and it there some kind of evil right wing motive.
No I just read this story about a 19 year old college student who jumped to her death.
It is a waste that she felt the only solution was to jump to her death.

UPenn in shock as freshman track star, 19, jumps to her death
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542641/UPenn-shocked-freshman-track-star-Madison-Holleran-19-jumps-death.html#ixzz2qxiSm3Kc

Jim Mahan
01-20-2014, 01:28 PM
Lots of suicides, of all sorts of folks of different ages, all over. I'd bet most people don't realize how much it happens.
When the time is right for me, I intend to leave this earth by own hand, cutting a relatively long, slow painful descent into helplessness and lack of dignity. But not in sadness or desperation. I'll have a small party and at the appropriate time, after a few goodbyes, I intend to drink a half bottle Irish whiskey containing an opium poppy bulb. And I'll see you on the other side, awake from the dream.

Gerarddm
01-20-2014, 01:29 PM
"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation" - Thoreau

Paul Pless
01-20-2014, 01:36 PM
I intend to drink a half bottle Irish whiskey containing an opium poppy bulb. and probably wake up the next day with one hell of a frikking hangover ;)

Flying Orca
01-20-2014, 01:36 PM
The way suicide works now, each individual suicide is a tragedy for the survivors and those who have to clean up the mess. Maybe it would be better if that weren't the case, but rather suicide was regarded as a legitimate choice...?

Steve McMahon
01-20-2014, 01:46 PM
I have always tried to instill in my kids that there is always another option and you can always choose to walk away. I expect the majority of suicides could be traced back to one or more basic situation themes: Financial, Relationship, or Expectations of others. All of which one can choose to leave behind and start over. The exception to that are the suicides brought on by mental trauma, PTSD, CISD etc. Those require medical intervention.

I'm not sure how to classify the other types where the option to suicide is probably worse. Cases I am familiar with:
1. A junior high school teacher charged with numerous cases of sexual assault against young students, suicide by tractor trailer. (the result was one of my most haunting fire calls to date)
2. A friend of mine faced rapid health decline and end of life hospitalization, suicide by stopping his meds and wandering off into the woods to his favorite spot on a cold day.

bogdog
01-20-2014, 01:58 PM
I don't think the right wing are evil, I do think they'd all vote for Voldemort...

genglandoh
01-20-2014, 02:05 PM
I have always tried to instill in my kids that there is always another option and you can always choose to walk away. I expect the majority of suicides could be traced back to one or more basic situation themes: Financial, Relationship, or Expectations of others. All of which one can choose to leave behind and start over. The exception to that are the suicides brought on by mental trauma, PTSD, CISD etc. Those require medical intervention.

I'm not sure how to classify the other types where the option to suicide is probably worse. Cases I am familiar with:
1. A junior high school teacher charged with numerous cases of sexual assault against young students, suicide by tractor trailer. (the result was one of my most haunting fire calls to date)
2. A friend of mine faced rapid health decline and end of life hospitalization, suicide by stopping his meds and wandering off into the woods to his favorite spot on a cold day.

I think this is excellent advice.

skipper68
01-20-2014, 02:27 PM
Everyone feels despair and overwhelmed at some time in their lives. I consider suicide is only right when the quality of your life has no chance of returning, as is serious physical pain. Then, people should support the relief from the pain.In that case it must be made clear that it was YOUR decision- No If ands or But's. People have gone to prison from others impulsive decisions to end their lives-by being held responsible.

In any other situation, there is always hope. Most will let their pride get in the way of asking for help and others just can not cope without that 100K house and fancy car. Things don't provide happiness in your soul, but people and animals will.

Being deceived is the most hurtful feeling, until you realize it is out of your hands. Then get mad and change YOUR life-then throw a match on that bridge and burn it down without looking back..

I think the younger generation just does not understand the value of life. Too many violent video games and movies maybe? That this poor girl felt she had no hope is exactly the problem. May she Rest in Peace, but I'm sure her loved ones lives will be shattered for many years.

I know of quite a few suicides in my circle of friends thru the years.
Just 2 weeks ago my granddaughters BFF, 12 years old, Father hung himself while telling the kids it was their mothers fault. He did not succeed but the kids are traumatized for life and he wont take his depression scripts. This is because he cant find work.

This is showing such a selfish personality, because those left behind are the victims forever wondering what they missed or didn't do to "fix it"..

To everyone I say, the true secret to life, whether the best times or the worst: This too Shall Pass.

Keith Wilson
01-20-2014, 02:30 PM
I expect the majority of suicides could be traced back to one or more basic situation themes: Financial, Relationship, or Expectations of others. As I understand it, (and I'm far from an expert) the vast majority of suicides are not even close to responses to practical difficulties of any type - although such problems can contribute. Most suicides have far more to do with internal mental states, mainly untreated or unsuccessfully-treated depression. The OP, while no doubt well-intentioned, misses the point, and is perilously close to the sort of "buck up, things ain't so bad" advice which is quite useless to a person suffering from clinical depression.

skipper68
01-20-2014, 02:41 PM
Agreed Keith. But many don't even know they are depressed. The colors just get grayer in their lives, and it spirals slowly into normal to them.
Many think it is a sign of weakness to ask for help, until they are caught in the act, or survive it. Then they can get treatment.

Keith Wilson
01-20-2014, 02:43 PM
Many think it is a sign of weakness to ask for help . . . One reason the suicide rate for men is about 4X that for women.

Flying Orca
01-20-2014, 02:44 PM
One reason the suicide rate for men is about 4X that for women.

There's also the whole fish/bicycle thing. A woman without a man may indeed be like a fish without a bicycle, but a (straight) man without a woman can be more like a fish without water...

skuthorp
01-20-2014, 03:22 PM
Men are not generally educated or have the nature to live with themselves, women are far better suited it seems. It may be that because, in evolutionary terms, men are dispensable/disposable once they have passed on their genes. Or before seeing that there is naturally an oversupply of men born for the same evolutionary reasons.

Steve McMahon
01-20-2014, 03:26 PM
As I understand it, (and I'm far from an expert) the vast majority of suicides are not even close to responses to practical difficulties of any type - although such problems can contribute. Most suicides have far more to do with internal mental states, mainly untreated or unsuccessfully-treated depression. The OP, while no doubt well-intentioned, misses the point, and is perilously close to the sort of "buck up, things ain't so bad" advice which is quite useless to a person suffering from clinical depression.

Would the root cause of the depression be likely from financial, relationship, and/or expectation based issues? I too am not an expert by any stretch, but unfortunately have had some exposure.

Keith Wilson
01-20-2014, 03:34 PM
I think brain chemistry, mostly, although external things can have influence.

skipper68
01-20-2014, 03:40 PM
'Stinkin' thinkin' Then our most exalted BROTYOTM chimes into a gruesome subject. Being all reasonable. :D
I think brain chemistry, mostly, although external things can have influence. Well said. :)

bogdog
01-20-2014, 03:46 PM
I had a friend who committed suicide the first of the month, cancer diagnosis, just before Christmas, 6-12mos with surgery, radiation, chemo. He would have been "dead" months before he would have died even under the best circumstances. For us it's a big loss but I wish he had another choice for his end of life so his family could have been with him.

John Smith
01-20-2014, 03:53 PM
There are many people in the world who have made bad decisions and when the realization of their actions hit home that get depressed and may even consider suicide.
Some may have not studied in school and are in a low paying dead end job.
Some may have maxed out their credit and are living pay check to pay check.

It does not matter what the exact situation is, I always tell people (including my own kids)
1. Recognize the problem (don’t blame it on others)
2. Remember you can fix anything. (don’t expect other to fix your problems)

Some may wonder why I am starting this thread and it there some kind of evil right wing motive.
No I just read this story about a 19 year old college student who jumped to her death.
It is a waste that she felt the only solution was to jump to her death.

UPenn in shock as freshman track star, 19, jumps to her death
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542641/UPenn-shocked-freshman-track-star-Madison-Holleran-19-jumps-death.html#ixzz2qxiSm3Kc

Life doesn't give "do-overs". This is a very stressful country, and people make bad decisions that add to that stress. Sometimes they are fooled by the "fine print" which is what Elizabeth Warren has been fighting.

People need to look forward to something. Sometimes they just need some breathing room. Perhaps there's some way we, as a society, can provide it.

wardd
01-20-2014, 04:03 PM
how about giving them a future

bogdog
01-20-2014, 04:37 PM
how about giving them a futureJust give 'em bootstraps...

elf
01-20-2014, 06:02 PM
I don't think we can say anything reasonable about the cause of most suicides when we have millions of non compos mentis people in nursing homes, a siege of Alzheimers on the horizon, and a culture that forbids suicide. While it may be true that some kinds of physiological lacks, or mental illnesses, are responsible for a large percentage of suicides in the last couple hundred years, having been scripted to live a life of service to others due to society's expectations of gender roles is probably the biggest cause of the gender imbalance in senior care facilities around the nation, if not the Western world.

If you think for a moment that all those sad old people are joyously awaiting God's call in those dreary facilities, you're dreaming.

skuthorp
01-20-2014, 06:31 PM
I wasn't going to post here, but…..
For a person in control of his or her faculties it is a personal decision. It of course involves those who will be saddened by his passing but if a person does not have control and ownership of their own body then they have control over nothing.
That said the 15 year old son of a friend suicided after a particularly unpleasant day at school. Devestated the family, broke the marriage and his father himself was eventually in trouble for doggedly pursuing the bullies involved after they were clearly identified at the funeral. Thus their lives and families were impacted as well. A bad situation not yet resolved after 9 years.

Personally, for us 2, we both have our stated position if circumstances change healthwise, and we both respect our individual positions on this. The only cloud on the horizon is the excessively religious wife of a nephew who would be horrified if she ever found out and I feel compelled to interfere.

John Smith
01-20-2014, 06:32 PM
Actually, I can imagine being alive being a second choice to death. There is a difference between 'living' and 'being alive'.

Unless we can walk in another's shoes, who are we to say that he's better off not killing himself?

PeterSibley
01-20-2014, 06:36 PM
One reason the suicide rate for men is about 4X that for women.

Ask for help.

Accept help if offered.

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/

skuthorp
01-20-2014, 06:41 PM
I have a jaundiced view of Beyond Blue Peter due to Kennet's involvement.

PeterSibley
01-20-2014, 06:46 PM
In this Kennet seems quite reasonable, not a bad spokesman . In other things , less so.

skuthorp
01-20-2014, 07:12 PM
Reinventing himself for history.

skipper68
01-20-2014, 11:59 PM
Who ever HE is, don'y matter.
In the depth of despair, reason will prevail we all think.
First, you need to know though!
The darkness keeps them isolated, so visiting someone off the grid can change a future for the extended family. Knowing is the hard part. :(

genglandoh
01-21-2014, 10:09 AM
Life doesn't give "do-overs". This is a very stressful country, and people make bad decisions that add to that stress. Sometimes they are fooled by the "fine print" which is what Elizabeth Warren has been fighting.

People need to look forward to something. Sometimes they just need some breathing room. Perhaps there's some way we, as a society, can provide it.

I disagree.

Anyone who is willing to do the hard work can fix their life.
So yes you can always do-over your life.

TomF
01-21-2014, 10:45 AM
I disagree.

Anyone who is willing to do the hard work can fix their life.
So yes you can always do-over your life.And I disagree.

Hard work can fix one helluva lot. A lot more than most think, when they give up.

Most things can be brought back to a point where valuable, meaningful living can emerge from the ashes. I do not think that in most of those cases a person does this alone - but in community and relationship. And in a significant number of instances (note - I'm not claiming all!) using faith of some type as a resource for that transformation.

But in a small and tragic minority of cases, I think some things can be too broken to be repaired. Certainly too broken to be repaired simply by us humans alone. I also think that each of us, somewhere in us, has such a tipping point ... which by the grace of God few of us will ever discover.

John Smith
01-21-2014, 11:16 AM
I disagree.

Anyone who is willing to do the hard work can fix their life.
So yes you can always do-over your life.

I think that's dream world stuff. Not every problem can be solved. Not everything broken can be fixed.

Jim Mahan
01-21-2014, 12:20 PM
My first reaction to the OP was to the notion of suicide. I've spent a great deal of time thinking about it and visualizing how I might do it. I have had a lot of unhappiness, bad news, and failures over my life.
I found out at age 45, after the demise of my fourth marriage, and a harrowing trip through a delusional manic episode, that I am bipolar. My life was in ashes, again. I hung in. I managed to keep my car, move, and get work. I fended off creditors, paid some bills I could manage and got laid off and found work again and lived with my brother. When I met my current SWMBO, I had just managed to pay off a bankruptcy lawyer and I was still in most of a jam but working again. After several years of being alternately employed and laid off and underemployed, I told off my petty tyrant, miserable sociopath boss and told him he was a dishonorable maggot. because even though he didn't have any real work for me, he wouldn't allow to me to collect unemployment because his accountant wouldn't let him. A lot of tension at home, a lot of looking for work, for any kind of work with a paycheck. Nobody, NOBODY, will hire a fifty year old guy with some college, twenty plus years of experience, who's been out of work for any amount of time, let alone a few years. Then at SWMBOs urging, in an attempt to find some relief and some answers, I got hooked up with a brain research clinic, and, long-story short, found out I also have Asperger's syndrome. If you've seen an episode of Parenthood where the Romano character reads a book about Asperger's and realizes it fits him and his life, then you have some idea of what I went through when I did the same thing. I have a 153 IQ. I sailed through high school, after the USAF, I got straight As in junior college and got a programming diploma from a computer school. I made a several year attempt to 'redefine' myself and become a sculptor. I have some artistic talent. I can draw and model clay and carve wood, all of which I love to do. But I haven't got the same basic brain function that neurotypical people have and so I can't, in spite of having a high IQ, manage myself to be a successful sole proprietor business man to succeed as a sculptor, even with SWMBOs help.
So now, I am fifty-nine, I get a social security check for my developmental disability. I have a small inheritance from my aunt, so now I have a sailboat, I've spent my life dreaming about. And I have a year-old diagnosis of emphysema, so I can can't exert myself for a even a few minutes without being out of breath, and it's getting worse as time goes on.
Oddly enough, considering all that, I have a nice house and some loving family left, and a friend I can talk to and get high with, and I'm happier now than I've ever been.
My spiritual journey has led me to the belief that my spirit, the real me, is eternal and nothing can change that, and I'll be very happy for this human mortality I've experienced to be over.

genglandoh
01-21-2014, 02:22 PM
My first reaction to the OP was to the notion of suicide. I've spent a great deal of time thinking about it and visualizing how I might do it. I have had a lot of unhappiness, bad news, and failures over my life.
I found out at age 45, after the demise of my fourth marriage, and a harrowing trip through a delusional manic episode, that I am bipolar. My life was in ashes, again. I hung in. I managed to keep my car, move, and get work. I fended off creditors, paid some bills I could manage and got laid off and found work again and lived with my brother. When I met my current SWMBO, I had just managed to pay off a bankruptcy lawyer and I was still in most of a jam but working again. After several years of being alternately employed and laid off and underemployed, I told off my petty tyrant, miserable sociopath boss and told him he was a dishonorable maggot. because even though he didn't have any real work for me, he wouldn't allow to me to collect unemployment because his accountant wouldn't let him. A lot of tension at home, a lot of looking for work, for any kind of work with a paycheck. Nobody, NOBODY, will hire a fifty year old guy with some college, twenty plus years of experience, who's been out of work for any amount of time, let alone a few years. Then at SWMBOs urging, in an attempt to find some relief and some answers, I got hooked up with a brain research clinic, and, long-story short, found out I also have Asperger's syndrome. If you've seen an episode of Parenthood where the Romano character reads a book about Asperger's and realizes it fits him and his life, then you have some idea of what I went through when I did the same thing. I have a 153 IQ. I sailed through high school, after the USAF, I got straight As in junior college and got a programming diploma from a computer school. I made a several year attempt to 'redefine' myself and become a sculptor. I have some artistic talent. I can draw and model clay and carve wood, all of which I love to do. But I haven't got the same basic brain function that neurotypical people have and so I can't, in spite of having a high IQ, manage myself to be a successful sole proprietor business man to succeed as a sculptor, even with SWMBOs help.
So now, I am fifty-nine, I get a social security check for my developmental disability. I have a small inheritance from my aunt, so now I have a sailboat, I've spent my life dreaming about. And I have a year-old diagnosis of emphysema, so I can can't exert myself for a even a few minutes without being out of breath, and it's getting worse as time goes on.
Oddly enough, considering all that, I have a nice house and some loving family left, and a friend I can talk to and get high with, and I'm happier now than I've ever been.
My spiritual journey has led me to the belief that my spirit, the real me, is eternal and nothing can change that, and I'll be very happy for this human mortality I've experienced to be over.

Thanks for sharing your story.
You should be very proud of yourself for sticking at it.
Some would have given up.

McMike
01-21-2014, 05:36 PM
Thanks for sharing your story.
You should be very proud of yourself for sticking at it.
Some would have given up.

Even while people like you keep telling them it's all their fault, you keep kicking them in the balls by advocating the gutting of social safety net programs and socialized healthcare that could prevent a lot of this anguish.

Your opening post says it all Geng and having read your past posts I've been able to see that behind your polite facade sits the personification of Scrooge.

Even in this thread you have made it clear that you wrongly think everyone starts out with the same set of tools and resources, they don't. It's with the lack of compassion and grasp of reality that people like you spew out, at every opportunity, the garbage that propagates a mass sense of worthlessness. This country can be made a whole lot more fair in terms of wage and opportunity if all you wrong minded folks would simply see reality and do the math.

I get it, you'll never change, and that's something I've accepted. But I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and let you think that you carry any sense of humanity or respect or honor, you don't.

genglandoh
01-22-2014, 11:27 AM
Even while people like you keep telling them it's all their fault, you keep kicking them in the balls by advocating the gutting of social safety net programs and socialized healthcare that could prevent a lot of this anguish.

Your opening post says it all Geng and having read your past posts I've been able to see that behind your polite facade sits the personification of Scrooge.

Even in this thread you have made it clear that you wrongly think everyone starts out with the same set of tools and resources, they don't. It's with the lack of compassion and grasp of reality that people like you spew out, at every opportunity, the garbage that propagates a mass sense of worthlessness. This country can be made a whole lot more fair in terms of wage and opportunity if all you wrong minded folks would simply see reality and do the math.

I get it, you'll never change, and that's something I've accepted. But I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and let you think that you carry any sense of humanity or respect or honor, you don't.

I have been trying to understand why you decided to attack me.

Based on my threads and posts you should have seen that my intention is to help people not hurt them.
I think blaming others and ignoring a problem is the worst thing one can do.
When people say they have no options, I am just trying to show them they do have options.

So I can only assume that you are going through a bad time in your life and you are mad at your situation.
Please try to come to grips with your situation and take some positive steps forward.
Remember if you do the work you can fix any problem.

Here are a few of the threads where I have been talking about these issues.

Should we have 2 minimum wages?
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?172213-Should-we-have-2-minimum-wages&highlight=

How long should unemployment Benefits last?
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?172350-How-long-should-unemployment-Benefits-last&highlight=

Who would you hire?
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?146400-Who-would-you-hire&highlight=

How much of a pay cut can you handle?
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?143207-How-much-of-a-pay-cut-can-you-handle&highlight=wife

Jim Mahan
01-22-2014, 12:03 PM
Remember if you do the work you can fix any problem.

That is a really disengenuous conservative talking point.
'There, there, everything will be alright. Just stop being a poor under-privledged entitlement seeker.
After all, most people work and get a decent education and a good job they can retire from, and anyone who doesn't is, by definition, lazy, unmotivated and therefore undeserving. Must be so 'cause there's SO much opportunity in our great country.'

genglandoh
01-22-2014, 12:34 PM
That is a really disengenuous conservative talking point.
'There, there, everything will be alright. Just stop being a poor under-privledged entitlement seeker.
After all, most people work and get a decent education and a good job they can retire from, and anyone who doesn't is, by definition, lazy, unmotivated and therefore undeserving. Must be so 'cause there's SO much opportunity in our great country.'

Ignoring your problems is not the solution.
I think addressing your problems head on and taking positive steps to make things better.
These steps in many cases are hard not to do but to accept emotionally.
For example it is very hard to accept that your job is gone and not coming back.
Some of the positive steps you can made are
1. Move to a location where your skills are needed.
2. Sell your home and downsize.
3. Take a lower paying job.
4. Reinvent yourself.

The approach is very positive and it shows I have faith in people.

What is your recommendations to people who are having problems in their lives?