PDA

View Full Version : Execution Extinction



George Jung
01-18-2014, 10:21 AM
I see this topic recurring in the news over the past several years - how difficult execution has become as, suddenly, there's 'no drugs' available for that purpose.

"Allen Bohnert, the lawyer who represented Mr. McGuire, called the execution “a failed, agonizing experiment by the State of Ohio.”

But the family of Joy Stewart, the woman Mr. McGuire raped and murdered in 1989, said in a statement that whatever Mr. McGuire’s suffering, it paled in comparison with what Ms. Stewart went through at the hands of her killer. “He is being treated far more humanely than he treated her,” the statement said.

Three decades ago, lethal injection was pioneered as a more humane method of execution than electrocution or gas. But in recent years, European manufacturers of previously used drugs like pentobarbital and sodium thiopental, in response to pressure from groups opposed to the death penalty, have blocked their sale for use in executions."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/18/us/prolonged-execution-prompts-debate-over-death-penalty-methods.html?hp&_r=0

It's a curious manner of presentation, to my eye. There are undoubtedly multiple drug combinations that would be effective, and (I have to believe) manufactured in country (what country would outsource all manufacturing?). Alternative options for execution exist.

By appearance, there simply doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm for corporal punishment - as if those so charged don't want to comply. Sneaky, maybe effective way to get there!

Keith Wilson
01-18-2014, 10:28 AM
We could go back to earlier methods. This device, BTW, was originally invented as a humanitarian improvement, since a guy with an axe wasn't always reliable.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Jfellows/gui.jpg

slug
01-18-2014, 10:30 AM
Id just eliminate the death penalty.

George Jung
01-18-2014, 10:32 AM
I do believe that's the end-game. To me, curious how they've approached it.

Peerie Maa
01-18-2014, 10:41 AM
But the family of Joy Stewart, the woman Mr. McGuire raped and murdered in 1989, said in a statement that whatever Mr. McGuire’s suffering, it paled in comparison with what Ms. Stewart went through at the hands of her killer. “He is being treated far more humanely than he treated her,” the statement said.






It seems to me that some people find it important that the condemned man be sober and alert as he is walked to the execution room, terrified.... some sort of revenge, rather than anything describable as 'justice'.

Yep, revenge. Humanity at its worst.

George Jung
01-18-2014, 10:51 AM
I'm not a fan of execution, nor 'revenge' - but might point out that 'humanity at it's worst' might more accurately apply to this gentlemans rape and murder of his victim. Perspective.

Arizona Bay
01-18-2014, 10:56 AM
Several states want to bring back firing squads because of the drug shortage.

http://www.trust.org/item/20140118000421-xxk5c/

George Jung
01-18-2014, 11:02 AM
Yep, Norman - that might come under the 'not a fan of execution, or revenge....' part of my post. Ya catch that? *smilie here* (I think I need a new computer.... I'm beginning to despise this one!)

I'd be curious the 'conversations' these lawmakers might be having about this....' I dunno, Bob.... it's getting so it's DAMNED hard to kill anyone these days... it's discouraging, is what it is...."

BOB (alarmed)..." Whoa there, we'll think of something..... how's about shootin' 'em.... that'll larn 'em!"

pefjr
01-18-2014, 11:03 AM
Where can the most money be made........ by those that are in total control of the justice system, and have at their mercy ... the tax payer? Inhumane........Is that even possible? Is it possible for a human to be inhumane? It may be that what ever is restricting the profits of the justice system caretakers is considered to be inhumane. The populace lost control of the justice system long ago, when the defendants became useful commodities to use for extracting tax from the people.

George Jung
01-18-2014, 11:05 AM
I dunno, JR - not many repeat customers with execution. Where's the money?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-18-2014, 11:25 AM
http://www.drugs.com/vet/euthasol-euthanasia-solution.html

There are commonly used alternatives.

pefjr
01-18-2014, 11:26 AM
I dunno, JR - not many repeat customers with execution. Where's the money?Exactly. The money is in keeping them alive and kicking.

George Jung
01-18-2014, 11:51 AM
Agreed; you're saying it's the Prison Officials 'dragging their feet' in terms of executions? Likely correct - though they're certainly getting 'support' from the medical industry. Just the way this is being played out is interesting.

Canoeyawl
01-18-2014, 11:58 AM
I dunno, JR - not many repeat customers with execution. Where's the money?
selling tickets?

http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Rainey_Bethea_hanging_big.jpg

George Jung
01-18-2014, 12:00 PM
I do believe attendance was 'free'... a bit ghoulish, though.

Canoeyawl
01-18-2014, 12:04 PM
I do believe attendance was 'free'... a bit ghoulish, though.

Woodstock was "free", not any more. There's a fortune to be made, just having a concession stand would do it.
edit; think super bowl...
We could work our way through the lightwieght murderers and rapists and have a grand finale in the dead of winter. Maybe put it out for the highest bidding network.

Arizona Bay
01-18-2014, 12:05 PM
Fox "News" could make money from it.
One state official, and I forget his name, said hangings were too expensive because of having to build a gallows and all, but firing squads were only the cost of ammunition.

pefjr
01-18-2014, 12:07 PM
you're saying it's the Prison Officials 'dragging their feet' in terms of executions?G jung I'm saying it's the entire Criminal Justice System milking the tax payer. Interesting that folks(not just Americans) buy the "inhumane" propaganda for executions, that waterboarding is torture( not ok) vs drone killing(ok), and at the same time swallow, hook, line, and sinker, the Obama "collateral damage" propaganda term for pre meditated murder of children(darker skin? speak different language?, different culture?, not on American soil?). Not logical ?????????????, Unless you figure in money .....and politics in the case of child murder. MIC money..and Criminal Justice System money. Then,.... the reasons become clear.

Canoeyawl
01-18-2014, 12:08 PM
Just for the record, I'm against capitol punishment...

George Jung
01-18-2014, 12:08 PM
I figgered.... I think most here, are.

bogdog
01-18-2014, 12:10 PM
Virginia's bringing back the chair, probably vote on it this week.

JimD
01-18-2014, 12:11 PM
I've never really understood this.

I'm decidedly against capital punishment, but if I were not, it seems to me that the WAY we do it is specifically designed to be as torturous as possible, to the convict.

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to sedate the convict, well in advance of the actual execution.... and then use drugs that would end his life without any possibility of reaction, agony, or any other ghoulish effect? Maybe a heavy dose of vallium 6 hours before... and then an injection of pure alchohol to stop his heart?

It seems to me that some people find it important that the condemned man be sober and alert as he is walked to the execution room, terrified.... some sort of revenge, rather than anything describable as 'justice'.
Agreed. Or at least sedation or anesthesia could be optional.

Gerarddm
01-18-2014, 12:11 PM
They shot Gary Gilmore, didn't they?

Paul Pless
01-18-2014, 12:13 PM
They shot Gary Gilmore, didn't they?yeah but he was asking for it

George Jung
01-18-2014, 12:16 PM
Agreed. Or at least sedation or anesthesia could be optional.

Obtaining any 'medical products' is getting increasingly difficult - if it's used for execution. That's the gist of the OP

Bobby of Tulsa
01-18-2014, 12:20 PM
Maybe they should give him a box of condoms and tell him to be more careful next time. Say what you want, if the law says there is a death penalty and you do the crime. Well either you don't care or you think you can beat it. Till they change the law then that's the way it should be.

Nicholas Scheuer
01-18-2014, 12:20 PM
MSN has a story this morning about two States considering execution by firing squad instead of by drugs.

Canoeyawl
01-18-2014, 12:22 PM
MSN has a story this morning about two States considering execution by firing squad instead of by drugs.
Let me guess, Texas? and ???

bogdog
01-18-2014, 12:30 PM
Let me guess, Texas? and ???Whineoming and Missouri...

Canoeyawl
01-18-2014, 12:32 PM
Will they use birdshot?

George Jung
01-18-2014, 12:38 PM
I'd imagine rifles/all blanks but one. 'Deniability'

bogdog
01-18-2014, 12:40 PM
Will they use birdshot?They will likely have a raffle for the shooters and it'll be bring your own firearm for the winners.

David W Pratt
01-18-2014, 01:02 PM
While I have never witnessed an execution, I have seen many dogs put down. it seems an easy death. Quick bolus puts them to sleep, then you give them the over dose

George Jung
01-18-2014, 01:06 PM
I suspect the very drugs used to euthanize animals are not available for executions. Countries where pharma manufactures these drugs prohibit them from selling for that purpose. Abuse it - and they shut off legitimate uses, such as anesthesia. It's politics.

bobbys
01-18-2014, 01:25 PM
50 million.......".

Rum_Pirate
01-18-2014, 02:36 PM
A significant proportion on here are against capital punishment and the methods used.

"It seems to me that some people find it important that the condemned man be sober and alert as he is walked to the execution room, terrified.... some sort of revenge, rather than anything describable as 'justice'."

many go on about the criminals rights including the criminal. How much consideration did that criminal give to the human right of their victim e.g. the right to live?

I wonder how many would be so forgiving and accepting when one of their immediate family or loved one is repeatedly raped and then throttled (or worse) to death? :confused:




.


.


.



The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

1. We are all free and equal. We are all born free. We all have our own thoughts and ideas. We should all be treated in the same way.
2. Don’t discriminate. These rights belong to everybody, whatever our differences.
3. The right to life. We all have the right to life, and to live in freedom and safety.
4. No slavery – past and present. Nobody has any right to make us a slave. We cannot make anyone our slave.
5. No Torture. Nobody has any right to hurt us or to torture us.
6. We all have the same right to use the law. I am a person just like you!
7. We are all protected by the law. The law is the same for everyone. It must treat us all fairly.
8. Fair treatment by fair courts. We can all ask for the law to help us when we are not treated fairly.
9. No unfair detainment. Nobody has the right to put us in prison without a good reason and keep us there, or to send us away from our country.
10. The right to trial. If we are put on trial this should be in public. The people who try us should not let anyone tell them what to do.
11. Innocent until proven guilty. Nobody should be blamed for doing something until it is proven. When people say we did a bad thing we have the right to show it is not true.
12. The right to privacy. Nobody should try to harm our good name. Nobody has the right to come into our home, open our letters or bother us or our family without a good reason.
13. Freedom to move. We all have the right to go where we want in our own country and to travel as we wish.
14. The right to asylum. If we are frightened of being badly treated in our own country, we all have the right to run away to another country to be safe.
15. The right to a nationality. We all have the right to belong to a country.
16. Marriage and family. Every grown-up has the right to marry and have a family if they want to. Men and women have the same rights when they are married, and when they are separated.
17. Your own things. Everyone has the right to own things or share them. Nobody should take our things from us without a good reason.
18. Freedom of thought. We all have the right to believe in what we want to believe, to have a religion, or to change it if we want.
19. Free to say what you want. We all have the right to make up our own minds, to think what we like, to say what we think, and to share our ideas with other people.
20. Meet where you like. We all have the right to meet our friends and to work together in peace to defend our rights. Nobody can make us join a group if we don’t want to.
21. The right to democracy. We all have the right to take part in the government of our country. Every grown-up should be allowed to choose their own leaders.
22. The right to social security. We all have the right to affordable housing, medicine, education, and child care, enough money to live on and medical help if we are ill or old.
23. Workers’ rights. Every grown-up has the right to do a job, to a fair wage for their work, and to join a trade union.
24. The right to play. We all have the right to rest from work and to relax.
25. A bed and some food. We all have the right to a good life. Mothers and children, people who are old, unemployed or disabled, and all people have the right to be cared for.
26. The right to education. Education is a right. Primary school should be free. We should learn about the United Nations and how to get on with others. Our parents can choose what we learn.
27. Culture and copyright. Copyright is a special law that protects one’s own artistic creations and writings; others cannot make copies without permission. We all have the right to our own way of life and to enjoy the good things that “art,” science and learning bring.
28. A free and fair world. There must be proper order so we can all enjoy rights and freedoms in our own country and all over the world.
29. Our responsibilities. We have a duty to other people, and we should protect their rights and freedoms.
30. Nobody can take away these rights and freedoms from us.
* List provided by Youth For Human Rights International, adapted and simplified from the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Here is a link to the original: http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
- See more at: http://www.samaritanmag.com/we-have-30-basic-human-rights-do-you-know-them#sthash.LN0KT17i.dpuf

Peerie Maa
01-18-2014, 02:43 PM
It can be argued that the way US states administer the death Penalty can be classed as torture or contravenes
The Eighth Amendment
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

Rum_Pirate
01-18-2014, 02:56 PM
It can be argued that the way US states administer the death Penalty can be classed as torture or contravenes

My understanding is that the death penalty is not a cruel or unusual punishment.
Perhaps the death penalty should match the cause of death (not any more cruel then he employed) in the victim, in this case say the garrotte?

What about addressing the questions raised in Post #39?

How much consideration did that criminal give to the human right of their victim e.g. the right to live?
I wonder how many would be so forgiving and accepting when one of their immediate family or loved one is repeatedly raped and then throttled (or worse) to death?

skuthorp
01-18-2014, 02:56 PM
I'm against capital punishment. Note the word 'punishment'. It's a theatrical left over from public executions.
I am not as it happens against revenge, preferably served cold.
But there have been enough mistakes, or deliberate frame ups, in the justice system to make state sponsored execution unsafe. I recall a university law professor who had his students comb through old murder convictions which resulted in many being cancelled because the evidence given had been unsafe or deliberately biased or 'edited'. I don't know if the police or prosecutors involved suffered any consequences.

Rum_Pirate
01-18-2014, 02:59 PM
I'm against capital punishment. Note the word 'punishment'. It's a theatrical left over from public executions.
I am not as it happens against revenge, preferably served cold.
But there have been enough mistakes, or deliberate frame ups, in the justice system to make state sponsored execution unsafe. I recall a university law professor who had his students comb through old murder convictions which resulted in many being cancelled because the evidence given had been unsafe or deliberately biased or 'edited'. I don't know if the police or prosecutors involved suffered any consequences.
So you are against 'capital punishment with the emphasis on the word 'punishment'.

Are you against the death sentence for certain crimes?

Yeadon
01-18-2014, 03:02 PM
I've been a witness at a state execution. I would agree that it's during the last 45 seconds before a guy goes out is when he really serves his sentence. Everything after that is just death. I'm not a supporter of capital punishment. I don't think it can be applied fairly among cases, classes, cultures, counties, states, or people. What seems to get it for one guy doesn't always seem to get it for another. That's the catch.

Rum_Pirate
01-18-2014, 03:06 PM
Hells bells, as easy as it is to OD on certain recreational drugs...go see the local dealer, do a hot shot of herion and let him enjoy the ride....

It might not be cruel, but would certainly be unusual - at least for the first few statutory executions.

skuthorp
01-18-2014, 03:08 PM
So you are against 'capital punishment with the emphasis on the word 'punishment'.

Are you against the death sentence for certain crimes?

A case could be made for putting a convicted criminal down, to use a commonly used phrase re unwanted animals, on a cost benefit basis I suspect. But if the legal process is unsafe in the first place then any execution is unsafe. Oh there will be those cases where there is no doubt, but once again where does the line lie?
Despite my emotional reactions to certain crimes yes, I am against it.

Peerie Maa
01-18-2014, 03:12 PM
My understanding is that the death penalty is not a cruel or unusual punishment.
Perhaps the death penalty should match the cause of death (not any more cruel then he employed) in the victim, in this case say the garrotte?

What about addressing the questions raised in Post #39?

How much consideration did that criminal give to the human right of their victim e.g. the right to live?
I wonder how many would be so forgiving and accepting when one of their immediate family or loved one is repeatedly raped and then throttled (or worse) to death?

Enacting a cruel revenge should be no part of the justice system. It is obvious that criminals do not have any consideration for their victim, whatever the crime, so how does taking revenge (which is what is behind your question) improve anything? If anything it reduces the state and its citizens to as low a level as the criminal.

Canoeyawl
01-18-2014, 03:14 PM
My understanding is that the death penalty is not a cruel or unusual punishment.

What if it is a mistake? Should the executors be held to the same standard?

Paul Pless
01-18-2014, 03:17 PM
I've been a witness at a state execution. I would agree that it's during the last 45 seconds before a guy goes out is when he really serves his sentence. Everything after that is just death. I'm not a supporter of capital punishment. I don't think it can be applied fairly among cases, classes, cultures, counties, states, or people. What seems to get it for one guy doesn't always seem to get it for another. That's the catch.

Yeadon is right, of course. . .

skuthorp
01-18-2014, 03:17 PM
Locking a person up for the rest of his natural life in a sterile and secure prison environment is, in my opinion, a far more cruel and unusual punishment than death. After all that happens to everyone. So If one doesn't believe in execution either where does that leave one?

JimD
01-18-2014, 03:21 PM
Obtaining any 'medical products' is getting increasingly difficult - if it's used for execution. That's the gist of the OP
Glad to hear it.

Rum_Pirate
01-18-2014, 03:28 PM
A case could be made for putting a convicted criminal down, to use a commonly used phrase re unwanted animals, on a cost benefit basis I suspect. But if the legal process is unsafe in the first place then any execution is unsafe. Oh there will be those cases where there is no doubt, but once again where does the line lie?
Despite my emotional reactions to certain crimes yes, I am against it.

I agree with you on where does the line lie.

It could be argued that (particularly for the younger offender) spending the rest of ones life behind bars without the possibility of parole could be an even more cruel punishment. It must be taken into account that the state will be providing medical care to treat any terminal or other illness thereby prolonging the period of incarceration.

Osborne Russell
01-18-2014, 03:39 PM
.... some sort of revenge, rather than anything describable as 'justice'.

Revenge is justice, forgoing revenge is policy, I would say. Revenge is perceived to make good the loss perceived to have been done to the community. Policy says, at a certain point the costs of revenge outweigh the benefits.

Check out The Oresteia, a series of plays, where Athena intervenes on behalf of Orestes vs. the Furies, for a mythological treatment of the conflicting interests and a compromise solution by, who else, the Goddess of Reason.

Meanwhile, as far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is war: if you can't do the killing yourself, personally, face to face, you need to STFU.

Breakaway
01-18-2014, 04:00 PM
if you can't do the killing yourself, personally, face to face, you need to STFU.

Well even if one had the .....will....to do so, they wont let ya. The state reserves that right.

Kevin

Peerie Maa
01-18-2014, 04:05 PM
Revenge is justice, forgoing revenge is policy, I would say. Revenge is perceived to make good the loss perceived to have been done to the community. Policy says, at a certain point the costs of revenge outweigh the benefits.


Can't agree. Revenge is something that degrades the soul. It lessens the individual and is most probably found to be unsatisfactory in it's outcome. It is not an attitude of mind that should be encouraged. It should have no place in a formal justice system, vendetta is based on a desire for revenge.

bobbys
01-18-2014, 04:42 PM
Revenge is justice, forgoing revenge is policy, I would say. Revenge is perceived to make good the loss perceived to have been done to the community. Policy says, at a certain point the costs of revenge outweigh the benefits.

Check out The Oresteia, a series of plays, where Athena intervenes on behalf of Orestes vs. the Furies, for a mythological treatment of the conflicting interests and a compromise solution by, who else, the Goddess of Reason.

Meanwhile, as far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is war: if you can't do the killing yourself, personally, face to face, you need to STFU.
I would kinda like to swing that sword like the lady in the walking dead,

Think I'm only up for zombies as of now.

pefjr
01-18-2014, 05:08 PM
A significant proportion on here are against capital punishment and the methods used.

.How many of those that claim they are against CP, cheered when Bin Laden was executed?
They cannot deny what is in the archives. How many were vocally against the execution of Timothy McVeigh? Why? Because they were personally involved or insulted and determined to get revenge.

bobbys
01-18-2014, 05:14 PM
How many of those that claim they are against CP, cheered when Bin Laden was executed?
They cannot deny what is in the archives. How many were vocally against the execution of Timothy McVeigh? Why? Because they were personally involved or insulted and determined to get revenge.
some of our more tolerate libs here pray Dick Cheney dies of a heart attack..

you can look it up! .

Yeadon
01-18-2014, 05:17 PM
You're wrong as always, bobbys. Libs don't pray. We're more hopeful than anything. C'mon.

bogdog
01-18-2014, 05:43 PM
some of our more tolerate libs here pray Dick Cheney dies of a heart attack..

you can look it up! .I'd never wish that on anyone especially Cheney with what he's already been through. Doesn't mean I don't think he and Bush should be tried for crimes against humanity, not to mention treason. Of course I didn't think McVeigh or Ben Laden should have been killed either. I would have preferred to see Ben Laden tried and convicted, would have been much more satisfying. The McVeighs and Ben Ladens need to studied until the end of their natural lives which is what we need to do with Hassan from the Ft. Hood shootings. We need to learn at some point what makes these types tick if we can.

George Jung
01-18-2014, 05:46 PM
From what I've read of both those guys, neither was going to be taken alive. How many more soldiers do you risk in such a pursuit? That said - would've been preferable to arrest rather than kill.

bobbys
01-18-2014, 05:51 PM
You're wrong as always, bobbys. Libs don't pray. We're more hopeful than anything. C'mon.
I stand corrected.

but only cause it's you and your the only man that understands womankind and pic ford.

pefjr
01-18-2014, 05:56 PM
some of our more tolerate libs here pray Dick Cheney dies of a heart attack..

you can look it up! .A regular annual Bonfire Rally isn't it?

pefjr
01-18-2014, 07:11 PM
From what I've read of both those guys, neither was going to be taken alive. How many more soldiers do you risk in such a pursuit? That said - would've been preferable to arrest rather than kill.McVeigh was taken alive, later tried, convicted, and executed. Only took 6 yrs with one appeal that the Supremes hurried. . One might say, it was a rush to execution, compared to many others. Bin Laden could have been taken alive, or maybe not, depending upon the blood thirstiness, and political ideology of the debaters on the subject. Funny how that ideology can justify and change the mind of a person normally against CP.

epoxyboy
01-18-2014, 07:17 PM
100% nitrogen atmosphere. Simple, cheap, (apparently) non-distressing, and non toxic. The other take on this is altitude induced hypoxia, as experienced by many trainee military pilots in a chamber. Just take it to its logical conclusion.
I think it was Louis Theroux who did a doco on this subject. When these were presented to some prosecutor as "humane" options, they guy pretty much said he wanted to see the person suffer, and this didnt deliver.

Pete

CWSmith
01-18-2014, 09:47 PM
Several people have spoken eloquently about the evils of execution and I agree. Here is the survey I would like to see: Go to the loved ones of the victims a suitable time later and divide those murders that ended in execution from those that did not. Ask the question "Have you found closure? Have you found peace?" I will bet you dollars to donuts that those who did not push for execution are happier and better adjusted. I don't believe that execution brings the closure that police and D.A.s say it will. The reason is that after all is done you are still left to come to terms with the crime, forgive in some manner, and move on. Executions just delay that.

Of course, that won't change anyone's mind.

George Jung
01-18-2014, 10:47 PM
I don't have a link - but have seen that very same sentiment previously. Astute observation.

slug
01-19-2014, 03:42 AM
Locking a person up for the rest of his natural life in a sterile and secure prison environment is, in my opinion, a far more cruel and unusual punishment than death. After all that happens to everyone. So If one doesn't believe in execution either where does that leave one?


You cant execute people because you can never be certain that they are guilty.

Peerie Maa
01-19-2014, 06:43 AM
Locking a person up for the rest of his natural life in a sterile and secure prison environment is, in my opinion, a far more cruel and unusual punishment than death. After all that happens to everyone. So If one doesn't believe in execution either where does that leave one?

Where is is written down that they have to be locked up for the rest of their life?

Have a think about this: http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/sentencing/Life-sentences.htm


The offender will only be released once they have served the minimum term and if the Parole Board is satisfied that detaining the offender is no longer necessary for the protection of the public. If released, an offender serving a life sentence will remain on licence for the rest of their life. They may be recalled to prison at any time if they are considered to be a risk to the public. They do not need to have committed another offence in order to be recalled.

pefjr
01-19-2014, 08:50 AM
You cant execute people because you can never be certain that they are guilty.Where is your uncertainty with Jared Loughner.

bogdog
01-19-2014, 08:55 AM
Ask the question "Have you found closure? Have you found peace?" I think "closure" is a myth or at least a very rare experience.

John Smith
01-19-2014, 09:08 AM
Does it bother anyone that we now know there's a good, 35% chance, the person being executed is innocent?

moTthediesel
01-19-2014, 09:21 AM
In certain states, this might be a popular alternative method:

http://monkeywrenchingamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/crucifiction.jpg

skuthorp
01-19-2014, 10:38 AM
Where is is written down that they have to be locked up for the rest of their life?

Have a think about this: http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/sentencing/Life-sentences.htm
I was thinking of the US actually, though there's been some examples of convicted and paroled killers here killing again in much the same circumstances. The politicians and parole board are under some pressure and rightly so.

Bobby of Tulsa
01-19-2014, 10:49 AM
What would ya do with these two?http://www.newson6.com/story/24482224/tulsa-mother-jailed-when-twin-infants-found-with-fractured-skulls

George Jung
01-19-2014, 11:08 AM
http://www.omaha.com/article/20140101/NEWS/140109924


The problem with folks, such as this guy, is the parole board. He spent his entire time in prison, isolated, because he was a threat to other inmates - claimed he would commit mayhem if ever released - and they cut him loose anyway. Gross - criminal - incompetence.

CWSmith
01-19-2014, 12:03 PM
Does it bother anyone that we now know there's a good, 35% chance, the person being executed is innocent?

It bothers me a great deal. It is one of many reasons I am opposed to execution.


Where is is written down that they have to be locked up for the rest of their life?

I am surprisingly good with this for those violent criminals that seem unwilling or unable to live with others. There would be plenty of room if we stop locking up minor offenders. I can easily see where we could have 1/3 the number of criminals in this country and they would only be the violent offenders.

S/V Laura Ellen
01-19-2014, 12:14 PM
In certain states, this might be a popular alternative method:

http://monkeywrenchingamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/crucifiction.jpg

If it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for us!

Osborne Russell
01-19-2014, 12:15 PM
Can't agree. Revenge is something that degrades the soul. It lessens the individual and is most probably found to be unsatisfactory in it's outcome. It is not an attitude of mind that should be encouraged. It should have no place in a formal justice system, vendetta is based on a desire for revenge.

I mostly agree; I was trying to describe people's perceptions of the role of revenge contrasted with the way things actually work out.

Speaking of which, however, IMO it's not possible to eliminate the desire for revenge -- the Furies are immortal. Next best is to feed them on scraps -- let the punishment have the least possible vengeance in it that will keep the masses from feeling the government isn't "on their side" while at the same time avoiding as much of the corroding effect as possible. A delicate matter.

Peerie Maa
01-19-2014, 12:26 PM
I mostly agree; I was trying to describe people's perceptions of the role of revenge contrasted with the way things actually work out.

Speaking of which, however, IMO it's not possible to eliminate the desire for revenge -- the Furies are immortal. Next best is to feed them on scraps -- let the punishment have the least possible vengeance in it that will keep the masses from feeling the government isn't "on their side" while at the same time avoiding as much of the corroding effect as possible. A delicate matter.

It might have been better to use the word punishment rather than revenge.

The Justice system has three elements. Deterrence, punishment and protecting society.
That is were the UK system of release on licence whilst serving life comes in. The life sentence is the deterrence. The term served is the punishment, and the possibility of release under licence recognises that a big proportion of capital offences will only ever be one off's, so the consideration of protecting society is right up there in the process.

Osborne Russell
01-19-2014, 12:51 PM
It might have been better to use the word punishment rather than revenge.

Why?


The Justice system has three elements. Deterrence, punishment and protecting society.
That is were the UK system of release on licence whilst serving life comes in. The life sentence is the deterrence. The term served is the punishment, and the possibility of release under licence recognises that a big proportion of capital offences will only ever be one off's, so the consideration of protecting society is right up there in the process.

Sounds good to me. I'm just saying, ignore the irrational, the Id, the killer ape aspect, at your peril.

Peerie Maa
01-19-2014, 01:07 PM
Why?




Revenge is unthinking, from emotion. Is that an appropriate concept to apply to a state?

pefjr
01-19-2014, 04:20 PM
Revenge is unthinking, from emotion. Is that an appropriate concept to apply to a state?
It was very evident immediately after 9/11. You could apply it to several allies united by common desire. It was also very evident when OBL was killed. I imagine it was as evident after Pearl Harbor.

Tom Montgomery
01-19-2014, 04:34 PM
I do not oppose capital punishment as being cruel and unusual.

I oppose capital punishment because man's justice is imperfect and innocent people are sometimes convicted and executed.

Peerie Maa
01-19-2014, 04:47 PM
It was very evident immediately after 9/11. You could apply it to several allies united by common desire. It was also very evident when OBL was killed. I imagine it was as evident after Pearl Harbor.

I expect the person in the street did seek revenge, any government reacting for a revenge motive deserves impeached. It is no way to run a country.

CWSmith
01-19-2014, 05:13 PM
I oppose capital punishment because man's justice is imperfect and innocent people are sometimes convicted and executed.

Agreed. I'll add one. Contrary to popular claims, it is not a deterrent. It actually teaches that life is cheap. I know that many will disagree, but I believe it is true.

Peerie Maa
01-19-2014, 05:25 PM
Agreed. I'll add one. Contrary to popular claims, it is not a deterrent. It actually teaches that life is cheap. I know that many will disagree, but I believe it is true.

How many are on death row to prove that it is no deterrent?

CWSmith
01-19-2014, 05:36 PM
How many are on death row to prove that it is no deterrent?

Agreed, but you know how the counter-argument goes... I think we need to find ways to affirm the sanctity of life rather than just killing those who kill. It's hard to get people to give up what is really nothing more than punishment spelled r-e-v-e-n-g-e.

Rum_Pirate
01-19-2014, 08:35 PM
Agreed. I'll add one. Contrary to popular claims, it is not a deterrent. It actually teaches that life is cheap. I know that many will disagree, but I believe it is true.

I would suggest that it teaches that life is expensive. Take one and it will cost you yours.


I know that many will disagree, but I believe it is true. Ah, so it is only a 'belief' ?

pefjr
01-19-2014, 08:39 PM
How many are on death row to prove that it is no deterrent?Do you think the current difficulty in getting a death sentence is a deterrent? It is more like a joke, and is a joke to the capital criminal. They laugh when threatened with the death penalty, they know that they have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting a death sentence.