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PeterSibley
01-14-2014, 08:19 PM
I'm currently building the centreboard case for my Selway Fisher JIM.

I've noticed on other posts and particularly by the Esteemed McMullen that manual bilge pumps attached to the side of the cb case seem quite the norm.

How essential are they ? If I'm going to fit one I will have to attach a nice thick piece of ply at this stage to attach it to and of course go off and buy one so I actually make the attachment big enough !

Sailor
01-14-2014, 08:28 PM
Or make one up of a few scraps. I hope to build one into the CB case of my Catspaw.

BBSebens
01-14-2014, 08:50 PM
I would call it a convenience thing. Its very handy to have it there.

That said, ye olde bailing bucket has no gaskets to fail.

PeterSibley
01-14-2014, 08:52 PM
Or make one up of a few scraps. I hope to build one into the CB case of my Catspaw.

How would you do that ? One of the plunger type ?

Sailor
01-14-2014, 09:11 PM
I envision a plunger and a lever type handle.

gilberj
01-14-2014, 09:14 PM
Always have a bailing bucket or two. Other than that I prefer a plunger type. They are more compact and can move as much or more water than a diaphram type unless the latter is very large. I have an older brass plunger type that will move almost half a gallon per stroke, ( I emptied a bath-tub feeding tough on the farm in less than couple of minutes ) perhaps a little large for your boat, but it would not look too bad. You can make a plunger type out of wood (box section) or plastic pipe or metal pipe. These days they call it de-watering....I just think getting the water out is really important.

PeterSibley
01-14-2014, 09:22 PM
One of these would fit neatly enough but they're expensive if you want a good one. This one is about 25 gallons US a minute.

https://www.whitworths.com.au/products/68795_lg.jpg

Thorne
01-14-2014, 10:25 PM
Wait and see how much -- and where -- you end up using it. You can always add one later. I prefer the mobile dinghy pump, as it can be used in various places in the boat, even when pulled up on the shore.

Yeadon
01-14-2014, 10:46 PM
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11509082655_2e0276334a_c.jpg

Big Food has one. I installed it so the outflow goes into the centerboard trunk. It's a "Gusher Urchin Manual Pump (http://www.fisheriessupply.com/whale-gusher-urchin-manual-pump)." I bought it at Fisheries Supply for $60-70. I had a handy little kayak-style pump like Thorne mentioned, but the thing was always either underfoot or securely stowed away when I needed it. (Once, I had one fall out of the boat near Upright Head. It sunk really quickly.) This newer pump is always ready to go, in one place, and never underfoot. I always know where to find it.

However ... like Ben said, if you really need to move water then use a bucket. I also have a bucket tethered in the boat. It serves multiple uses, most of which you can guess. I've never had to bail with the bucket, but I have used the trunk pump to clear out a few gallons of spray. It's also handy after dark when you want to clear the bilges of any spray or rain water, letting you sleep in dry peace on the floorboards.

James McMullen
01-14-2014, 10:55 PM
It's really purely a placebo, there for psychological reasons. A Sooty Tern is just a deathtrap, we all know it.

Canoeyawl
01-14-2014, 11:02 PM
One of these would fit neatly enough but they're expensive if you want a good one. This one is about 25 gallons US a minute.


https://www.whitworths.com.au/products/68795_lg.jpg

25 gallons a minute is not much, a bucket will do a lot better than that. But a small pump like that is handy for pumping out a bit of rain water or the occasional dipping of the rail. But serious pumping? Forget it. You can pull on that handle hard enough to deform the rubber diaphram and then you have to wait for it to work. Positive displacement pumps are much better.

These are good, but they all need rebuilding, which is a new leather. I've had one in my dory for 30 years, it's saved my butt a couple of times.

(Bob Smalser) (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?135059-Seattle-Great-Price-on-a-manual-brass-bronze-bilge-pump&p=3084341#post3084341)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9745605/397779144.jpg

gilberj
01-14-2014, 11:55 PM
You would have to pump pretty hard to get 25 gallons per hour with a diaphragm pump like that, unless it is very big each stroke is only about a cup or two. The brass one there is similar to mine. Almost 2 US quarts (litres) per stroke. If I did not already have one I would build one about that size. I did need to re-do the plunger before installation.

pcford
01-15-2014, 12:12 AM
(Bob Smalser) (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?135059-Seattle-Great-Price-on-a-manual-brass-bronze-bilge-pump&p=3084341#post3084341)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9745605/397779144.jpg

mygodallmighty. And he had some of you convinced that he was a master.

PeterSibley
01-15-2014, 12:22 AM
Such things don't seem to exist here or if they do I've never seen one. I appreciate that a diaphragm pump is slow compared to a bucket but the bucket isn't very good at removing water from under the sole while under sail.

I'll set one up as per Yeadon's .

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9745605/397779144.jpg

skaraborgcraft
01-15-2014, 03:15 AM
I find it hard to imagine using a lift pump with a long shft on a small boat that be be bouncing around a lot.....even the handle of the lift pump similar to the above was bent on a 3 ton cruiser. A bucket is first line defence but a small diaphram pump is handy for getting rid of the leftovers IMO.

keyhavenpotterer
01-15-2014, 06:16 AM
I happen to have one so arranged but a central bilge pump with midline mounted intake and exit through the centrecase won't collect water from either quarter when healed and if your flooded above the centrecase it will be ineffectual. Depending on a boats helm position, it might not be to hand.

I guess double ended, raking stemmed boats are drier than most, Decked boats drier still. Boats with more keel rocker will pool water centrally than planing type boats, double enders more than transom boats will pool it centrally more and sail and oar boats with narrow slack bilges will pool water more centrally than flatter form stable boats also. A boat with a mizzen will hold station when stopped and be vertical for a central pick up.

The ability to put the inflow anywhere in the boat and outflow over the topsides is more optimal, but certainly not so neat and tidy looking. Web Chiles changed his case mounted pump to this arrangement and found his life much drier in his Drascombe, but his case was extreme. Dangerous amounts of water are most effectively removed with a tied on plastic bucket which is the first thing. A lift up floorboard square or space big enough for a good sponge behind the case for mopping out small amounts of water that the bilge pump can't lift is very good to have to hand. Water in the bottom is most conveniently drained after a day sail from a drain bung. I've thought the drain bung might be a fishfinder transducer hole...

Boats with false bottoms can have a pump inflow or small electric pump mounted in a box sunken below the floor. The Welsford Houdini is so arranged. The BJ17 is well arranged with rear quarter intakes. The side tanks stop before the aft tank bulkhead so water pools into the drain area against the topsides. That's well planned on that one (the design has a false floor also), though being transom boats there's more space and need aft for it.

Ed

PeterSibley
01-15-2014, 06:37 AM
I happen to have one so arranged but a central bilge pump with midline mounted intake and exit through the centrecase won't collect water from either quarter when healed and if your flooded above the centrecase it will be ineffectual. Depending on a boats helm position, it might not be to hand.

I guess double ended, raking stemmed boats are drier than most, Decked boats drier still. Boats with more keel rocker will pool water centrally than planing type boats, double enders more than transom boats will pool it centrally more and sail and oar boats with narrow slack bilges will pool water more centrally than flatter form stable boats also. A boat with a mizzen will hold station when stopped and be vertical for a central pick up.

The ability to put the inflow anywhere in the boat and outflow over the topsides is more optimal, but certainly not so neat and tidy looking. Web Chiles changed his case mounted pump to this arrangement and found it much better in his Drascombe, but his case was extreme. Dangerous amounts of water are most effectively removed with a tied on plastic bucket which is the first thing. A lift up floorboard square or space big enough for a good sponge behind the case for mopping out small amounts of water that the bilge pump can't lift is very good to have to hand. Water in the bottom is most conveniently drained after a day sail from a drain bung. I've thought the drain bung might be a fishfinder transducer hole...

Boats with false bottoms can have a pump inflow or small electric pump mounted in a box sunken below the floor. The Welsford Houdini is so arranged. The BJ17 is well arranged with rear quarter intakes. The side tanks stop before the aft tank bulkhead so water pools into the drain area against the topsides. That's well planned on that one (the design has a false floor also), though being transom boats there's more space aft for it.

Ed

Thank you Ed, the next question really , the drain bung . Now I'm rather averse to drilling holes in the nice new hull but bar getting her totally pumped, sponged and dry afloat it must be done on the trailer. JIM is an 18 foot double ender with 2 sealed buoyancy chambers, one forward and one aft. The open section is around 11'6'', she has some rocker, 3"?

This gives an idea of her shape, seen from forward. What would you suggest drain wise or not ? Not has it's attractions.

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/24163537/403498169.jpg

from aft.

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/24163537/408391572.jpg

dktyson
01-15-2014, 06:43 AM
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oUrUqPtNeiE/Uk1UATJ0H7I/AAAAAAAAIs8/HH25aAiIGdY/w800-h536-no/DSC_0252+%25283%2529.JPG
This is a 12 gal/min model mounted in the front end of my Myst centerboard case. It pumps into a hole above but the plumbing is not connected yet. Nicely out of the way, on this boat anyway. Can't vouch for how it works since it seldom rains in my shop. It cost about $75.

keyhavenpotterer
01-15-2014, 07:33 AM
Peter,

1. I'd drill the floor holes next to the keelson sized for a bit bigger than my first forefinger to poke through. Old school is a chain than can be tugged a bit fore and aft through the holes to disslodge detritus but shouldn't be necessary for a clean pleasure boat.

2. I'd internally epoxy coat it well at least up to the level of the turn of the bilge/ top of the floorboards or where the planks go vertical. Reason being if any condensation forms in the winter or rain water gets in, it will run off the vertical sides of the hull, but will aggregate and pool along the bottom of the planks and keelson etc. So this bottom third I would epoxy coat for an optimum water barrier even if I were 'just' painting the rest. The older probuilt clinker plywood boats we have bought, its this internal bottom area where there was black fungal growths showing. Outside and vertical sides fine. Adding a bit of colloidal silica will make it especially smooth and tough. I think the carbon additive is it? that's supposed to make it real tough and slippy. For wiping out, but I'm a bit anal about having a clean boat.

3. I'd fillet the floor to keelson, keelson to garboard and internal lap edge of those bottom planks to make sure water is staying out and to make wiping out and dry quick and easy. The keelson is the last piece you ever want to replace in 20 years. I'd want a decent diameter fillet. It will wipe out much quicker and not hold detritus in the corners. It will also structurally hold everyrhing together so that cracks won't appear allowing water in. Remeber the saltwater is preservative, but rain and condensation water is what if the wood gets wet allow the fungus to grow. This is more of a problem in damp wet UK conditions, less so in Australia I'm sure.

For drain bungs.

1. Location wise. It's mainly going to be drained when its back on the trailer. I guess the boat will be fairly level but it will be adjustable by the jockey wheel up and down at the front so that it trims inside to pool the water to the drain. Easier with a small trolley dinghy I guess by hand but your boat looks more trailer sized. I'd look at the waterlines and rocker profile to judge fore and aft location.

2. For material, the bronze classic marine ones are nice and durable. Good thick seal. Best with a permanent attachment line. Paul Gartside pften shows softwood plugs (like used as a standbuy in case a through hull fails) shown inserted through a garboard reinforced inside and out with a small bit of wood overdrilled and filled with epoxy/ glass. On his Flashboat he shows it through the keel with a small reinforcement piece of wood either side of the narrow keel, but I personally wouldn't want any more drain holes though the keel/ keelson for rain type water to be travelling longterm.

3. I would over drill it. Fill with epoxy with microfibres, then redrill it for the drain bung so that no water is getting into the planking laminates. I'd position it low in the garboard. I'd try to get it flush with the outside when down, some are quite thick in profile. Cheap solution.. I've wondered about a piece of copper pipe glued in sized to a wine bottle opening, and for the bung a wine bottle stopper the sort that expands in the hole as you lever it over/ down...A metal drain will epoxy in as well as screw.

4. For inclined boats on tidal beaches, a fitting further aft might be better so it can't pool aft. Same as for trolley boats left with the front in the air. Same forward if it dries out with the mizzen holding it pointing down the beach.

5. Leaving the bilges with a two pack varnished finsh would offer protection to the epoxy, a tough finish, UV protection (though should be mostly covered) and you can visually reassure your self that all the planking is still in rot free dry good condition. If painted I'd two pack paint the bilges or use International Danboline bilge paint for a one pack.

6. In good conditions, most water will come off your feet and shoes when you step in off a beach. Thats more a sponge job. I find a big car sponge good and its good if you can design in a space within arms reach of the helm to be able to sponge up any water and wring it over the side without the floorboards being entirely in the way. A small hinged lift up section or space with the sponge stuffed in is good I think, It'll soak up water in situ.

7. A well as drainage, a good breathable cover ties in with it especially if it's got a front and rear vent to let air flow through, boat will stay bone dry. The gig's down in Cornwall have them. Just some copper pipe to hold a flap open like on a tent.

8. Slicing through a 5l plastic container obliquely makes the standard small bailer with a handle in the UK. You can get fold up plastic rubber buckets if space gets tight. Must all be tied on.

9. If you go with floorboards, its good to make at least the inner midline one quickly removable independent of the others so the muck can be wiped out where its mostly aggregating after an outing, though you have lovely sand rather than UK gloopy mud. I'd also make sure your floorboards are spaced apart smaller than the diameter of your sheets and lines so that they can't get between and get caught. I've had several IO boats and the knotted sheet ends caught between two floorboards and the under cross section keeping the sheet stuck, so I'd closely space the floorboards or even use a sheet of plywood for the floors but depends on the look your going for, but ropes fall through big gaps and catch.


Ed

Thorne
01-15-2014, 09:27 AM
Ed's advice is great! For trailered boats with adjustable jockey wheels / swing away jacks on the tongue of the trailer, I like the drain in the front. You can lower the jack as much as possible for hosing / washing out the boat after use. Otherwise you have to bail or shop-vac the water out of the boat after cleaning.

I use a bronze garboard drain plug with a slot cut in the top of the plug, allowing use of a coin or knife to remove it.

http://www.starmarinedepot.com/smd/images/prodimages/Seachoice/ZZ7592_L.jpg

donald branscom
01-15-2014, 10:27 AM
Put in a large coffee can on a piece of flexible metal cable.
It can be thrown out in case you need to slow down as well as bailing.
Stuff a large sponge inside the can for the final wipe down.
Also the sponge inside the can will keep the dog from getting
nervous and chewing up the sponge.

No moving parts to mess up.

donald branscom
01-15-2014, 10:29 AM
Ed's advice is great! For trailered boats with adjustable jockey wheels / swing away jacks on the tongue of the trailer, I like the drain in the front. You can lower the jack as much as possible for hosing / washing out the boat after use. Otherwise you have to bail or shop-vac the water out of the boat after cleaning.

I use a bronze garboard drain plug with a slot cut in the top of the plug, allowing use of a coin or knife to remove it.

http://www.starmarinedepot.com/smd/images/prodimages/Seachoice/ZZ7592_L.jpg

Why not just turn the boat upside down?

James McMullen
01-15-2014, 10:32 AM
I use the same kind of positive threaded garboard drain that Thorne pictured. I don't like the idea of a merely wedged-in plug or stopper at all, at all, at all! I cut out a little wrench for snugging them tight out of a bit of bronze plate that just lives in the bilge next to the drain. I also carry a spare screw-in plug, just because.

I placed one at each end of my cockpit, so that I can ensure the boat will drain no matter which way it is facing on a slope, bow up or bow down, on the trailer, or hauled up on the beach.

Cogeniac
01-15-2014, 10:34 AM
You could set up some batteries in the flotation chambers and the put a small electric pump down between those floors.. :d

Seriously, I think Smalser's approach is great. No nonsense, no thru hull/plug, and dead simple...

Love the chain through the limber holes. I think I am going to try that on MAKOTO. I get schmutz in the limber holes regularly, and have to go around pulling sole panels and fingering them out...Maybe put a rubber cord on one end so I can pull it back and forth from the other....

S

Yeadon
01-15-2014, 11:25 AM
Smalser's approach works for him at the local mill pond, where his biggest threat would be too much rain in the bilge. I'd hate to have that spike sticking up where I'll impale myself when we actual went out and bashed around in the chop for a day or two.

keyhavenpotterer
01-15-2014, 11:26 AM
I guess one forward, one aft, one port garboard, one starboard would have it all covered and drain water either side of keelson.

The classic marine one I've got on my cormorant is slightly different, it screws in, but also has a thick rubber seal. Also the top is winged to remove with fingers. I grease the thread. They are 9mm deep so would suit your planking Peter, and sit flush. They're not cheap though, for something not terribly exciting but will have a long life.

Once your going along its negative pressure on the hull further back so you can take things out to drain. A softwood plug that swells to shape will additionally be getting sucked into position. But no I'm not quite ready either, but its using wood to advantage and costs nothing. Two bronze drains are 50...

Drilling a hole in a fully water tight hull can't be right but without them though swilling out is going to be lengthy and more difficult. Prey to the sea gods Peter for forgiveness first.

Canoeyawl
01-15-2014, 12:55 PM
mygodallmighty. And he had some of you convinced that he was a master.

;)

pcford has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

keith66
01-15-2014, 02:28 PM
The best bilge pump for an open boat by far was the Simpson Lawrence Vortex pump, they were geared rotary impeller type pumps built entirely of gunmetal.
Gear ratio was approx 20 to 1.
the pump was mounted low down in the bilge with its tram style handle dropping through a thwart. Smallest was about 1/2" outlet biggest was 1 1/2" outlet.
I acquired one of the latter & used it to salvage an old 27ft motor launch that had a badly split keel for 2 thirds of its length despite caulking it with mud & strips of cloth the leak was huge and she would settle down onto the mud in no time. That old pump kept her afloat until we hauled her out with a solid jet of water hurling out of its pipe over the side. Two of us took turns on the handle & got a fine workout! They turn up at boat jumbles & are well worth restoring.

WI-Tom
01-15-2014, 02:49 PM
One advantage to boats that have few frames and no floorboards is how easy it is to keep them dry with just a scoop bailer and a large sponge. I like to keep the interiors as bare as possible for just that reason.

And that's the main reason I would prefer not to use stringers along the edge of each plank in glued lap construction if I ever build a glued lap boat--more places for moisture to collect and make it more difficult to keep clean and dry with just a bailer and sponge.

You can safely get by with a scoop, sponge, and a bucket (as long as these are tied in securely) and don't need a pump at all if you don't have floorboards to get in the way.

Tom

James McMullen
01-15-2014, 03:30 PM
I agree with Yeadon. That giant, overwrought pump of Smalser's is cluttersome, looks terrible, and is entirely a hazard to sails, lines and crewmen. Surely he coulda figured a way to make it a little lower profile, you'd think, at least so the pump outflow wasn't such a guaranteed dockline snagger. And it's mounted in what looks like the narrow bow end of a flat-bottom sharpie, exactly where you'd least like the weight of the water and the crew to run to when full of water sloshing around. I think Yeadon is absolutely right about this--that's a beaver pond solution, not a seamanlike installation.

A bucket is still your first line of defense, the little bilge pump should be your one hand solution to clear out a little rainwater or the rest of the dregs, not your primary "de-watering" device.

pcford
01-15-2014, 03:48 PM
I agree with Yeadon. That giant, overwrought pump of Smalser's is cluttersome, looks terrible, and is entirely a hazard to sails, lines and crewmen. Surely he coulda figured a way to make it a little lower profile, you'd think, at least so the pump outflow wasn't such a guaranteed dockline snagger. And it's mounted in what looks like the narrow bow end of a flat-bottom sharpie, exactly where you'd least like the weight of the water and the crew to run to when full of water sloshing around. I think Yeadon is absolutely right about this--that's a beaver pond solution, not a seamanlike installation.

A bucket is still your first line of defense, the little bilge pump should be your one hand solution to clear out a little rainwater or the rest of the dregs, not your primary "de-watering" device.

McMullet...what you meant to say....to put it gently...that pump is dog butt ugly. outrageously so.
The appropriate pump for this situation would be a electric bilge pump (toss in the boat) connected to a battery on a hand truck.

Chip-skiff
01-15-2014, 03:49 PM
One potential situation to consider: you're beating up in a steep sea, shipping quite a lot of water over the forward quarter, and you need to attend the mainsheet and the tiller. If you cleat one or the other, you still need to have it in reach. The cockpit's a-slosh, taking on a couple liters per minute. We can add a rainstorm if you like.

What sort of bilge pump could you operate from the helm while underway with one hand (or better, one foot?)

PeterSibley
01-15-2014, 05:00 PM
Thank you all, this is all very much appreciated especially Ed's lengthy and detailed directions. Thanks for the tip about the Classic Marine drains, they a very nice indeed , I'd say my budget would run to 2 !

As has been suggested a bilge pump will be only for removing water below the sole, if I get any above that level it will definitely be bucket work!

Yeadon
01-15-2014, 07:03 PM
One potential situation to consider: you're beating up in a steep sea, shipping quite a lot of water over the forward quarter, and you need to attend the mainsheet and the tiller. If you cleat one or the other, you still need to have it in reach. The cockpit's a-slosh, taking on a couple liters per minute. We can add a rainstorm if you like.

What sort of bilge pump could you operate from the helm while underway with one hand (or better, one foot?)

(Heads-up, this is going to sound like I'm being a smart-ass, but I'm not.)

I'd use the lug-yawl method of bailing ... once the water got to problematic level, I'd sheet in the mizzen and let loose the main. The boat would weathercock and settle in nose into the wind, letting me take a moment to pump out the bilge. Then I'd reef down again to slow the boat down a bit so I didn't take so much water in over the rail.

And off I'd go ...

PeterSibley
01-15-2014, 07:37 PM
(Heads-up, this is going to sound like I'm being a smart-ass, but I'm not.)

I'd use the lug-yawl method of bailing ... once the water got to problematic level, I'd sheet in the mizzen and let loose the main. The boat would weathercock and settle in nose into the wind, letting me take a moment to pump out the bilge. Then I'd reef down again to slow the boat down a bit so I didn't take so much water in over the rail.

And off I'd go ...

There will be MANY questions on how to sail a lug yawl ! :D

Brian Palmer
01-15-2014, 08:11 PM
One potential situation to consider: you're beating up in a steep sea, shipping quite a lot of water over the forward quarter, and you need to attend the mainsheet and the tiller. If you cleat one or the other, you still need to have it in reach. The cockpit's a-slosh, taking on a couple liters per minute. We can add a rainstorm if you like.

What sort of bilge pump could you operate from the helm while underway with one hand (or better, one foot?)

I think I read of someone (maybe Webb Chiles in his Drascombe Lugger?) using a scoop-type bailer on a stick so he could reach the lee side of the cockpit to bail while still sailing.

I only have a 2-gallon bucket, a clorox bottle with the bottom cut off (doubles as a urinal for both men and women), and a plastic piston type pump with a 6 ft hose.

Brian

timo4352
01-15-2014, 08:37 PM
Maybe there is a good reason that I don't see anybody suggest it, but, why not use a SLA battery and a 12 volt bilge pump? A ten amp hour battery would be maybe 30 bucks, and a small pump about the same - no? Then you would be able to bail out the lee side while still sailing. I have thought about it for my boat but haven't gone there yet. Haven't really needed it.

Jamie Orr
01-15-2014, 09:00 PM
One potential situation to consider: you're beating up in a steep sea, shipping quite a lot of water over the forward quarter, and you need to attend the mainsheet and the tiller. If you cleat one or the other, you still need to have it in reach. The cockpit's a-slosh, taking on a couple liters per minute. We can add a rainstorm if you like.

What sort of bilge pump could you operate from the helm while underway with one hand (or better, one foot?)

I saw an open sailing canoe fitted with a small electric pump and battery so he could empty the boat without stopping or moving his weight while sailing. When the water level rose, the owner switched on the pump to clear the bilge then turned it off again. The battery reportedly lasted several days used like that.

Jamie

pcford
01-15-2014, 09:04 PM
(Heads-up, this is going to sound like I'm being a smart-ass, but I'm not.)



You? I could not imagine.

Chip-skiff
01-15-2014, 09:38 PM
(Heads-up, this is going to sound like I'm being a smart-ass, but I'm not.)

That's fine, if what you say is smart.

Otherwise...

Yeadon
01-15-2014, 09:54 PM
Not only was it smart, it was informed by experience, well written, and generally engaging. I'm no pcford.

Binnacle Bat
01-15-2014, 10:28 PM
(Heads-up, this is going to sound like I'm being a smart-ass, but I'm not.)

I'd use the lug-yawl method of bailing ... once the water got to problematic level, I'd sheet in the mizzen and let loose the main. The boat would weathercock and settle in nose into the wind, letting me take a moment to pump out the bilge. Then I'd reef down again to slow the boat down a bit so I didn't take so much water in over the rail.

And off I'd go ...


One can do this without assistance of a mizzen. In my sloop I round up into the wind till all way is off, let the jib sheets fly, ease the main sheet so it's out about 50, and put the helm over. as she goes backwards the bow will fall off til the main starts to fill, then she will start to pull forward again and round up. I drop the tiller extension into the bilge so the helm stays down, go forward to where one of the big liquid laundry soap containers with the bottom cut out is hanging on its lanyard, and bail until done. No pump, battery or mizzen required. Same laying to process works for taking in or shaking out reefs, making lunch, or whatever. Cost is zero, as the balers are coming out of the recycling bin, and the lanyard is whatever old hank of line is laying about. I hang them off the spinnaker guy hooks port and starboard, so they are ready at hand, but not generally in the way.

When sailing hard enough to take on enough water to need bailing, I'm up on the rail, so there would need to be two manual pumps, one on each rail, so that I could work the pump with one hand and steer with the other, all the while looking for the puff that will require me to stop pumping long enough to ease the sheet. Two pumps, one for each tack, with whatever hoses and strainers needed is a lot of $, a lot unsightly plumbing and generally in the way.

Allan

PeterSibley
01-15-2014, 10:41 PM
I'll settle for one pump to clear the water under my sole, something that will be hard to do with only a baler. There will be balers and buckets too.

Canoeyawl
01-15-2014, 11:06 PM
I have had a few mishaps in open boats over the years, and a "small mishap" in a 20 foot boat might be 2 or 3 hundred gallons, maybe a ton or so.
Think about that while dodging another breaking wave, handling the sheet and the tiller to keep your steerage. Whatever pump you have chosen, and where you have mounted it will become important. Hopefully you will never, ever have to use it.

(Apologies for showing such an ugly pump and mounting...)



This model is a lovely pump

http://images.jamestowndistributors.com/woeimages/marinesupplies/250_250/51139.jpg (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/product.do?part=135004&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=product_ad&type=pla)

PeterSibley
01-15-2014, 11:09 PM
Jake, your image is of an Edson bronze diaphragm pump if I'm not mistaken, a lovely bit of gear but well outside my budget !

Canoeyawl
01-15-2014, 11:34 PM
It will mostly depend on where you are sailing, I think.

neilm
01-16-2014, 12:47 AM
An electric bilge pump makes more sense in a motor boat but I'm thinking about putting one in my Sooty Tern. Batteries make good ballast. I have one in my 16ft RIB and love it. Just flick a switch and it can empty a boat in a hurry.

Neil

pcford
01-16-2014, 12:57 AM
Not only was it smart, it was informed by experience, well written, and generally engaging. I'm no pcford.

It's ok. Just keep trying.

WI-Tom
01-16-2014, 03:08 AM
What sort of bilge pump could you operate from the helm while underway with one hand (or better, one foot?)

I use a scoop made from slicing the bottom off a half-gallon bottle of Tide right now. Kind of ugly but very functional, even one-handed (though it can be a bit exciting to lean down for a scoopful in conditions as you describe).

Tom

johnno
01-16-2014, 06:25 AM
Peter, I intend to use mine mainly for pumping out anything below the sole, and have a bucket and standard bailing scoop for faster more urgent disaster bailing. So much like you I think.

I ended up putting mine near where I hold the tiller and sheets, with flexi tubing under the boards to the lowest point.

This puts the pump out of the way tucked up under the side deck, in an easily reachable position, with the outlet port high up under the gunwale, where I can visually check that the pump is really flushing, and clean and maintain the fittings very easily.

All of the above explains why I resisted the very great temptation to exhaust it down the centreboard case. :)

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i454/johnhockings/Sarah%20Wilson%20sailing/964692_10151748030258946_2088381418_o.jpg

PeterSibley
01-16-2014, 06:39 AM
Hmmm, a good position but I will probably have a seat along there, well I may, there's a bit of scrap mdf modelling to do first but the plans do show seats port and starboard. I thought under the cross thwart would be good ... after I decide which side I'll probably sleep on and put it on the other side (likely) on the side of the cb case .
.

gilberj
01-16-2014, 07:05 AM
I'd think very carefully about the ergonomics of working the handle wherever you put it...not too much out of the way.

Brian Palmer
01-16-2014, 08:38 AM
A lot of whitewater canoeists (the folks paddling small open canoes, not kayaks, in class III+ whitewater) are now installing 12 volt electric bilge pumps to empty the water out during longer rapids. The pumps and batteries are fairly light and not too expensive.

Brian

WI-Tom
01-16-2014, 08:53 AM
A lot of whitewater canoeists (the folks paddling small open canoes, not kayaks, in class III+ whitewater) are now installing 12 volt electric bilge pumps to empty the water out during longer rapids. The pumps and batteries are fairly light and not too expensive.

Brian

Yes--you can't stop and reef in the middle of a rapid. You often can, though, in a small sailboat. So I'd rather plan to do that than deal with the extra complications of batteries and electric gadgets.

Tom

John Perry
01-16-2014, 01:49 PM
I think a self draining boat has a lot going for it, but failing that it probably is a good idea to have a hole(s) in the bottom to let the water out.
John

James McMullen
01-16-2014, 03:21 PM
I used to paddle whitewater OC-1 at times. The Name of the Game was keeping a dry boat, running drops in such a way that you successfully managed it without swamping. Good grief! If you are going so far as to add electrics and a pump, you might as well go to all the rest of the conveniences of a decked C-1.

Brian Palmer
01-16-2014, 04:36 PM
I used to paddle whitewater OC-1 at times. The Name of the Game was keeping a dry boat, running drops in such a way that you successfully managed it without swamping. Good grief! If you are going so far as to add electrics and a pump, you might as well go to all the rest of the conveniences of a decked C-1.

I tend to agree. (Uh-Oh.) There is a great video of Nolan Whitesell paddling Niagara Gorge in one of his open canoes. He is at the top of a 20 ft wave using his paddle to scoop water out of his boat. This was a common technique when people still paddled open canoes that didn't look like a converted water trough, and you actually had some room between your knees and the front air bag. Nolan was also the first to run the Great Falls of the Potomac in an open canoe.

John Meachen
01-16-2014, 05:05 PM
http://www.discount-marine.co.nz/shop/images/Anderson%20super%20mini%20RA554131.jpg

No batteries to go flat and no muscles to fatigue.

Robert Meyer
01-16-2014, 05:31 PM
mygodallmighty. And he had some of you convinced that he was a master.

I think you will find that this is the actual bilge pump on Bob Smalser's boat.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7711190/388231323.jpg

The following link will take you to an actual discussion on bilge pumps that Bob participated in. Also describes how to build a nifty wooden lift bilge pump.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?115605-Manual-bilge-pump

pcford
01-16-2014, 07:47 PM
I think you will find that this is the actual bilge pump on Bob Smalser's boat.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7711190/388231323.jpg

The following link will take you to an actual discussion on bilge pumps that Bob participated in. Also describes how to build a nifty wooden lift bilge pump.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?115605-Manual-bilge-pump

What? the one in the picture was an illusion? What a wanker...and a lot of you believed him...my favorite line was when he said ALL quality boatshops rub out their finishes with pumice and rottenstone.

And his valedictory...a sort of apotheosis wherein he associated himself with Fleming and others that actually were not talking out of their butt like Smalser was much of the time. Sorry Bob, they laughed at you.

And by the way...the type of pump shown above has precious little capacity...fine if the boat is not actually used.

gilberj
01-16-2014, 09:53 PM
That pathetic little pump is double acting and will move more water than a medium sized diaphragm pump, and the operator will last longer, because the ergonomics are better.

pcford
01-16-2014, 10:14 PM
That pathetic little pump is double acting and will move more water than a medium sized diaphragm pump, and the operator will last longer, because the ergonomics are better.

Any figures on that? Or do you want us to accept it because you said so...like the Master? More likely the real reason was that the pump containing polished brass which Bob applied randomly to his boats. (With screw heads clocked, of course.)

While you are at it...perhaps you could share with us the name of one (1) shop that rubs back varnish with pumice and rottenstone like Smalser said ALL quality shops do.

gilberj
01-16-2014, 11:09 PM
My father had several pumps identical to the one in the photo....double acting. I don't have any of my father's so I cannot verify output. I have checked a single acting kayak plunger pump in comparison to a medium sized diaphragm pump in my boat. The kayak pump is about half the work and leaves less water in the bilge... have not done a specific litre per stroke per minute comparison, but comparative data satisfies me. I am not impressed with diaphragm pumps other than it is difficult to plug them.
The other question..... I pretty much agree with you. I have seen a few small firms exceed expectations, but not often enough to make a trend.

pcford
01-16-2014, 11:22 PM
The other question..... I pretty much agree with you. I have seen a few small firms exceed expectations, but not often enough to make a trend.

Uh, you do understand that rottenstone and pumice were used about a 120 years ago...there are far better products. And yes, I have used pumice and rottenstone.

gilberj
01-16-2014, 11:29 PM
How much water per stroke does your pump move?
How many stokes can you sustain per minute without busting something...?
My brass plunger pump will move almost 2 US quarts per stroke from my boat...not manufacturers inflated rate...
It is one thing to question Mr Smalzers statements. He is no longer here to discuss this.
You may make more of a statement if you present data, but you only challenge subjective data...sorry.
My data is my opinion unless I state otherwise...then it is backed up by data.
I have pumped a lot of fluids. This opinion is my opinion, backed by my experience. I don't give a toss whether you agree or like my opinion.

BBSebens
01-17-2014, 12:55 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAnyway...


I think a well thought-out pump installation is probably a good idea for someone in an open sailboat that may be caught in somewhat rough conditions.

For someone like me, who doesn't really go out in bad weather, the bucket works well enough. I'd put in a pump if I were building a new boat though...

pcford
01-17-2014, 01:11 AM
I have pumped a lot of fluids.

Well, I will take your word for that. And I congratulate you. No more needs to be said.

In any case, I doubt if the Master choose the brass pump for production...rather for retro looks. If he were more interested in efficiency, he would have chosen a more effective output hose.

pcford
01-17-2014, 01:13 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAnyway...


I think a well thought-out pump installation is probably a good idea for someone in an open sailboat that may be caught in somewhat rough conditions.

For someone like me, who doesn't really go out in bad weather, the bucket works well enough. I'd put in a pump if I were building a new boat though...

Don't see it in this thread: "There is no more effective bilge pump than a bucket and a scared man."

Eric Hvalsoe
01-17-2014, 01:35 AM
I have a cut off Clorox type bottle bailer, and a kayak pump. The kayak pump has a float collar so it is not going to sink. They are both tethered to the boat of course. The Clorox bottle does double duty. I have a small boat and never really had my ass in a sling in terms bailing it out. the kayak pump takes care of what might slosh in or a ton of rainwater. But diaphram into the case is tempting, maybe one of the days. For a long and serious trip. Tim's pump is nifty, although it does no feel as sturdy as I would like, but probably the same pump I would buy at fisheries. The kayak pump is easy to break out of its velcro lashings, a little more trouble to put away, you can put it exactly where you want it, but the outlet can be kind of a treacherous snake. Through the side deck is an interesting idea if you have a side deck. 'Double action' sounds good. Sort of has to with layout of the boat, bilge clearance etc. I tend lean my boat over a bit and pump out toward the turn of the bilge.

I have no numbers

pcford
01-17-2014, 01:47 AM
I have a cut off Clorox type bottle bailer, and a kayak pump. The kayak pump has a float collar so it is not going to sink. They are both tethered to the boat of course. The Clorox bottle does double duty. I have a small boat and never really had my ass in a sling in terms bailing it out. the kayak pump takes care of what might slosh in or a ton of rainwater. But diaphram into the case is tempting, maybe one of the days. For a long and serious trip. Tim's pump is nifty, although it does no feel as sturdy as I would like, but probably the same pump I would buy at fisheries. The kayak pump is easy to break out of its velcro lashings, a little more trouble to put away, you can put it exactly where you want it, but the outlet can be kind of a treacherous snake. Through the side deck is an interesting idea if you have a side deck. 'Double action' sounds good. Sort of has to with layout of the boat, bilge clearance etc. I tend lean my boat over a bit and pump out toward the turn of the bilge.

I have no numbers

Eric, it seems like yeadon's pump on the case would awkward and unnatural...I dunno. But there's a lot unnatural about that boy.

Canoeyawl
01-17-2014, 01:52 AM
Don't see it in this thread: "There is no more effective bilge pump than a bucket and a scared man."

I pretty near ruined my back bailing for a couple of hours with a five gallon bucket, but it was the swimming that really wore me out.

PeterSibley
01-17-2014, 02:54 AM
This thread seems to be trying to qualify for movement to the Bilge.:(

I can buy 2 different types of bilge pump here, a diaphram version or a small electric, no nice old brass double acting versions. So it will be a diaphram pump,

gilberj
01-17-2014, 03:07 AM
I had a diaphragm pump fitted in a spot somewhat similarly to the esteemed Mr Yeadon's instalation. It was awkward to use, and not very efficient.

I do know what rottenstone and pumice are....thanks. I would not question your theory about Mr Smalzers reason for having a pretty brass pump, and the hose was certainly a disappointment.

PeterSibley
01-17-2014, 03:13 AM
I will assure myself that I can pump easily while underway or heaved to.... really.

Canoe
01-17-2014, 03:25 AM
Hello,
All of our sailing dinghys had self - bailers (Elvstrom/Holt) which are OK if you are moving fast and don`t need to sleep on-board (they do tend to leak a bit!). After a capsize we used a large plastic bucket and scoop to get the bulk of the water down to below the top of the centre board case and beyond, a large sponge finished the rest. We never used a bilge pump in boats up to 17ft. as it (the bilge pump) would have been in our way (apart from not looking very cool in a racing dinghy!).

Hope that helps,

Greetings from (no winter yet!) Germany,

Alan

James McMullen
01-18-2014, 01:22 PM
I think you will find that this is the actual bilge pump on Bob Smalser's boat.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7711190/388231323.jpg


Well, I think we really do need to take a little bit broader look at this pump issue. . .as despite gilberj's recommendation, I don't find myself as sanguine about the actual capacity of that there tiny diameter pump, double-acting or no. I have a sneaking suspicion it was chosen more for its shiny brass color more than any specific utility. Let's take a wider angle view of this boat, shall we?

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7711190/101677477.jpg

That pump is really, really not very big, nor can it be used one-handed while underweigh. It's got to be unstowed, placed in the correct position, and have the hose fed over the side before you can pump a drop. It's pretty much just decorative--like that lovely bronze winch. That centrally mounted bronze winch is for handling the sheeting loads of a sub-20 sf sail by the way, and seems cunningly located so that anyone straddling the CB case on the way to sitting at the oars might partake of a refreshing and invigorating bronze enema.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7711190/101677619.jpg

Also worth noting is this gorgeous reproduction brass lantern, placed just low enough so that it can blind the oarsman's night vision without unduly alarming passing yachtsmen.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7711190/101677187.jpg

And there must be at least 4-5 lbs of functionally superfluous assorted copper-based alloys here at the stern. But it sure is shiny! And all the screws are carefully clocked, even on the angled skene chocks installed in such a way as to ensure maximum chafe on a towline or stern anchor rode.

No, in contrast, Yeadon's ridiculously practical setup, with its mechanism out of the way under the thwart where it can't be stepped on, instantly to hand and at working order while the helmsman's still got his tiller clutched in his other hand is boringly unromantic. And not even shiny! In fact, knowing Tim as I do, I be that no-account scoundrel didn't even clock the screw heads, merely resorting to a functionally correct torque. Ha ha, what a loser!

Canoeyawl
01-18-2014, 02:00 PM
I'm not going to defend that except to say he probably enjoyed himself.
Small boats can be a lot of fun, however you decide do it.

Yeadon
01-18-2014, 02:10 PM
I could see having an extra kayak-style double-action pump in the boat if I had crew who could pump while we sailed, if necessary. That would be handy. (After that, I'd want my crew to make me a sandwich.)

Also, in the photo above, those skene chocks are on the wrong side. They need to be switched. That's bugging me. Ok, and the giant bronze winch and corresponding winch handle are also unnecessary. Otherwise, she's a pretty little boat that would look great with a lug yawl rig.

Chip-skiff
01-18-2014, 02:23 PM
I could see having an extra kayak-style double-action pump in the boat if I had crew who could pump while we sailed, if necessary.

Seems like a fixed pump would require some sort of Y tube setup and shutoff valves to work with the boat heeled very far.

In NZ I saw P-Class racers using a can or small pail on a stick, so they could bail with one hand while hiking out (one hand for the tiller extension, one hand to bail, mainsheet between the teeth.

darroch
01-18-2014, 02:26 PM
I knew there was a practical use for a monkey's fist somewhere on my boat...

http://i902.photobucket.com/albums/ac223/RDM_bucket/MFA_zps1fc8b915.jpg

Binnacle Bat
01-18-2014, 02:28 PM
http://www.discount-marine.co.nz/shop/images/Anderson%20super%20mini%20RA554131.jpg

No batteries to go flat and no muscles to fatigue.


I used to have something similar in my boat, leaked something wicked. I'm sure they let in five times as much water in as they ever sucked out. I tried to use them to bail out after a capsize, and the boat submarined, so I had more water aboard than I did after righting from the capsize.

Such things are dandy for a dry sailed racing dinghy that only does relatively short legged round the buoys racing, but they do nothing for you sitting at anchor, or at rowing speeds, plus they are as expensive as a decent pump.

Allan

James McMullen
01-18-2014, 02:30 PM
My real point is that the playful project of a craftsman and tinkerer is not necessarily the best model to follow for a serious small boat sailor.

John Meachen
01-18-2014, 05:39 PM
I used to have something similar in my boat, leaked something wicked. I'm sure they let in five times as much water in as they ever sucked out. I tried to use them to bail out after a capsize, and the boat submarined, so I had more water aboard than I did after righting from the capsize.

Such things are dandy for a dry sailed racing dinghy that only does relatively short legged round the buoys racing, but they do nothing for you sitting at anchor, or at rowing speeds, plus they are as expensive as a decent pump.






Allan





Bad installation or worn seals?Or will we never know?

Canoe
01-19-2014, 05:30 AM
Bad installation or worn seals?Or will we never know?

I`ve been sailing dinghys for over 50 years, all the dinghys I`ve owned had "Selfbailers" not all of them leaked all the time and it was mostly only a few drops caused by sand on the seal but I can`t say that they are relyable and would not be able to sleep, on board, at ease with them fitted. To try to dry sail a swamped boat only using selfbailers usually ends with a submarine act!, Transomflaps and a bucket are more effective until the selfbailers suck out the last couple of inches. Selfbailers are maybe not too good for a camp/cruise boat.

Anyway hope that helps

Alan

gilberj
01-19-2014, 12:30 PM
I agree James that the lovely little brass pump needs two hands to use. It could be secured permanently in place. Yeadon's installation is very tidy. I like it...but I am not really happy with diaphragm pumps. they move about 1 cup per stroke and the working of the handle is just not quite right...specially sideways...and partially obstructed by furniture.

Binnacle Bat
01-19-2014, 02:13 PM
Bad installation or worn seals?Or will we never know?

Worn seals I think. That particular model is no longer made. Someone suggested that injecting silicone sealant would create new seals, but that was a miserable failure. I replaced them with pieces of 16 ga stainless. No water goes out, and very little comes in. Vast improvement.

Allan

kbowen
01-28-2014, 05:56 PM
Several of the posts mention sending the bilge water into the CB trunk, has anyone run into problems with this, re: repairs, clogging, never being able to change the thru-hull fittings, back-pressure while pumping, etc, etc? Otherwise it's appealing.

Ken

skuthorp
01-28-2014, 10:40 PM
Subject is relevant to me as I have never properly solved the problem of bailing out my Macgreggor sailing canoe after a capsize. The section being round she's 'difficult' to re-board and bail. She floods when capsized. I keep coming back to an electric pump. Turn it on, float about for a bit and then climb in when she's more stable. At present I use a scoop and a collapsible bucket. It is a problem in deep water.

BBSebens
01-28-2014, 10:43 PM
Several of the posts mention sending the bilge water into the CB trunk, has anyone run into problems with this, re: repairs, clogging, never being able to change the thru-hull fittings, back-pressure while pumping, etc, etc? Otherwise it's appealing.

Ken


The CB case mounted diaphragm pumps are generally used for emptying out wave spray, rain, and a spilled beverage, rather than large scale dewatering. Given that use, anything that your pump can suck up should go through the case easily, especially with the board down.

James McMullen
01-28-2014, 11:22 PM
Ben's got it right.

Ben Fuller
01-31-2014, 11:05 AM
Ed's advice is great! For trailered boats with adjustable jockey wheels / swing away jacks on the tongue of the trailer, I like the drain in the front. You can lower the jack as much as possible for hosing / washing out the boat after use. Otherwise you have to bail or shop-vac the water out of the boat after cleaning.

I use a bronze garboard drain plug with a slot cut in the top of the plug, allowing use of a coin or knife to remove it.

http://www.starmarinedepot.com/smd/images/prodimages/Seachoice/ZZ7592_L.jpg

If you have a drill press and a bit of welding rod, you can make a T handle for these.

Ben Fuller
01-31-2014, 11:11 AM
One advantage to boats that have few frames and no floorboards is how easy it is to keep them dry with just a scoop bailer and a large sponge. I like to keep the interiors as bare as possible for just that reason.

And that's the main reason I would prefer not to use stringers along the edge of each plank in glued lap construction if I ever build a glued lap boat--more places for moisture to collect and make it more difficult to keep clean and dry with just a bailer and sponge.

You can safely get by with a scoop, sponge, and a bucket (as long as these are tied in securely) and don't need a pump at all if you don't have floorboards to get in the way.

Tom

This is pretty much where I am on RAN TAN. The bucket is a rubber horse bucket with a rope bail and lanyard. The scoop bailer is a Delaware style wood and leather bailer which is easy on the paint. And floats when it goes overboard. And following Delaware practice, we left one frame width out of the floor boards just aft of the central thwart so that you have side to side access to the boat bottom.

Ben Fuller
01-31-2014, 11:18 AM
Maybe there is a good reason that I don't see anybody suggest it, but, why not use a SLA battery and a 12 volt bilge pump? A ten amp hour battery would be maybe 30 bucks, and a small pump about the same - no? Then you would be able to bail out the lee side while still sailing. I have thought about it for my boat but haven't gone there yet. Haven't really needed it.

For kayak work I used a cut down welding rod case, into which a small rule bilge pump will fit. The pump is in the bottom with appropriate holes for hose and water inlet, then there is a watertight mini cell bulkhead and enough space for batteries, either a couple of sticks of rechargable model boat/ car batteries or a bunch of D cells in a holder. Then a water tight switch. I have had problems getting a good submersible switch but for little boats the demand is not so great. On tests I have managed to pump out a 55 gallon trash can and still had juice to pump some more.

Ben Fuller
01-31-2014, 11:21 AM
In the old days before self bailers, star boats and the like used to fit diaphragm pumps with lanyards led to the weather rail. You could hike and pump at the same time. Strikes me as that might not be a bad idea for a small open sailboat.

WI-Tom
01-31-2014, 04:34 PM
The boat I'm building now--Don Kurylko's Alaska--shows two manual pumps port and starboard on the thwart web/bulkhead just forward of the cockpit, in reach of the helm. So you can use the pump on the high side and not have to lean down to leeward. The handle is attached to a lanyard when not in use. Seems like a nice set-up if you want pumps instead of just using a bailer.

Tom

PeterSibley
01-31-2014, 07:19 PM
Two? I'm prepared to heave to to pump out so one should do!

Ben Fuller
01-31-2014, 09:47 PM
The Star boat issue and the potential issue in small row sail boats is that in a thrash to weather considerable amounts of spray come aboard. Hence the pumps that can be operated from the high side; the suctions are on the opposite side or if you had fixed pumps you could operate the leeward pump from the windward side. There are times that enough spray was coming aboard that to stop and bail would seriously inhibit progress.

PeterSibley
01-31-2014, 09:51 PM
Seriously, if it's that busy I'll probably need to heave too occasionally for a cup of tea !