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Ian McColgin
01-14-2014, 11:34 AM
[IMc - I view this as a horrible miscarriage of justice, but our system should free the guilty more often than it condemns the innocent.]

Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

By Adolfo Flores and Paloma Esquivel
January 13, 2014, 4:31 p.m.

An Orange County jury Monday found two former Fullerton police officers accused of killing a schizophrenic homeless man, Kelly Thomas, not guilty.*

Manuel Ramos and Jay*Cicinelli*were charged with striking Kelly Thomas with a baton and a stun gun in a beating that left him comatose. He died five days later.

Ron Thomas, Kelly Thomas' father, said he was stunned by the verdict, saying he'd never seen such a miscarriage of justice.

Thomas also suggested that federal authorities should look into the case.

Ramos' attorney, John Barnett, told reporters: "These peace officers were doing their jobs...they did what they were trained to do."

Orange County Dist. Atty. Tony Rackauckas said prosecutors would not pursue charges against a third Fullerton officer accused in the Thomas case. That officer's trial was pending.

"I don't intend to proceed with another trial when the two officers here were acquitted," he told reporters.

The jury took less than a full day of deliberation to reach the not-guilty verdicts.*

*Rackauckas told jurors the former officers had abused their authority on the July evening when they confronted Thomas.

Ramos was facing second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter charges, and*Cicinelli was charged with involuntary manslaughter and excessive use of force under the color of authority.

The incident, captured on surveillance tape, was shown repeatedly during the trial, but each side drew different conclusions as to what it showed.

Prosecutors said the video captured a real-time homicide with the officers beating a homeless man, even as he called out for help. Defense attorneys said it showed two policeman trying to restrain a violent suspect who possessed abnormal strength.

The coroner's office determined that Thomas died of brain damage from lack of oxygen caused by chest compression and other injuries sustained during his struggle with police.

Defense attorneys suggested that Thomas' death could be tied to a diseased heart damaged by previous drug use.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-live-verdict-in-kelly-thomas-police-murder-case-20140113,0,5661959.story#axzz2qKy99ifz

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Durnik
01-14-2014, 12:37 PM
...our system should free the guilty more often than it condemns the innocent.

While in essence, absolutely true - those who are given power of life & death over their fellow citizens should be held to far higher standards - in their selection, their training, & their being called to account.

Just a for instance, we have tranquilizer guns which can subdue a raging lion - but we can only kill a man? This case points to a wrongly trained police force which knowingly acts to instill a sense of fear in their fellow citizens. That's wrong.

peace
bobby

BrianY
01-14-2014, 12:45 PM
Just a for instance, we have tranquilizer guns which can subdue a raging lion - but we can only kill a man? .

peace
bobby


You don't shoot tranquilzers at a "raging" lion. If the lion is "raging" - i.e. posing an immediate danger to the health and saftey of people near it - you shoot to kill. You use a tranquilzer to subue animals when they do not pose an immediate threat.

the anolgy applies to people in their encounters with law enforcement. The problem lies in determining when the threat rises to the level to warrant a lethal response

Durnik
01-14-2014, 12:56 PM
You are correct, I am guilty of the (over) use of hyperbole - still, the u.s. police system seems to always 'go for the extreme' - & that is my point, & concern.

peace
bobby

Reynard38
01-14-2014, 01:05 PM
Eugenics courtesy of the police.

CWSmith
01-14-2014, 01:09 PM
You are correct, I am guilty of the (over) use of hyperbole - still, the u.s. police system seems to always 'go for the extreme' - & that is my point, & concern.

peace
bobby

We currently have a case where a drunk teenager was slammed into the wall in the police station and pepper sprayed by the 3 cops who arrested him. One view of the video and there is no doubt the kid was knocked semi-conscious.

Some police think it is about them getting respect. It isn't. If they were competent, the kid would have been in cuffs and manageable. They were incompetent and are currently on leave pending the investigation.

htom
01-14-2014, 01:18 PM
The encounters will continue until the Revolution arrives.

Well, maybe someday they'll kill a Somebody with this foolishness and that will put an end to the deaths of the almost uncounted nobodies. Not holding my breath, though.

Durnik
01-14-2014, 01:40 PM
Some police think it is about them getting respect.

CW, I have a friend married to a cop - she says when he puts his uniform on, she leaves the room - seems he is trained to be (while in uniform) rude & aggressive to everyone not a cop - this as a method of instilling fear (which, as you note, is often mis-labeled 'respect') in 'civilians'. Yeah, we have a problem.

Lest anyone get me wrong, I've experienced friendly & helpful cops - I've also had to deal with a few, shall we say, 'over aggressive' cops.




The encounters will continue until the Revolution arrives.

more likely, the encounters will continue (& grow) as the proliferation of firearms in the hands of the public grows. Cops are (somewhat understandably so) scared of the possibility of a private citizen pulling on them. Working toward a less violent & divided society would be nice - too bad TPTB enjoy 'divide & conquer' so..

peace
bobby

Breakaway
01-14-2014, 01:53 PM
Whatever we may say about police in general or about the two in this instance, they were given a jury trial. That jury was shown a videotape of the events. The jury deliberated for less than a day.

Given those facts--jury and video-- it would seem that if there is a problem here it would be with fellow citizens.

Kevin

Bob Adams
01-14-2014, 01:54 PM
Is Phillip banned or something?

pefjr
01-14-2014, 02:16 PM
Whatever we may say about police in general or about the two in this instance, they were given a jury trial. That jury was shown a videotape of the events. The jury deliberated for less than a day.

Given those facts--jury and video-- it would seem that if there is a problem here it would be with fellow citizens.

KevinThe problem is the same o liberal hate of cops. Do you ever see them upset when an officer is killed in the line of duty, by scum bags? They complain because the jury only needed a day to reach a decision. That tells the story right there.

Ian McColgin
01-14-2014, 02:48 PM
For 2012 the ten deadliest jobs in the US were, in order: Logging workers; Fishers and related fishing workers; Aircraft pilot and flight engineers; Roofers; Structural iron and steel workers; Refuse and recyclable material collectors; Electrical power-line installers and repairers; Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers; Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers; Construction laborers. (As reported by Forbes from BLS stats)

We expect a great deal from the police and having worked with various police departments in both citizen and professional capacities I know that the job stresses are high, but objectivly the dangers are what they are, not what TV shows and urban legends make them out to be.

CWSmith
01-14-2014, 04:40 PM
The problem is the same o liberal hate of cops. Do you ever see them upset when an officer is killed in the line of duty, by scum bags? They complain because the jury only needed a day to reach a decision. That tells the story right there.

Bud, you are full of cr@p. I know great cops and even roomed with one once. You are spouting cartoon stories of overly simplistic politics.

pefjr
01-14-2014, 05:38 PM
Bud, you are full of cr@p. I know great cops and even roomed with one once. You are spouting cartoon stories of overly simplistic politics.Explain why the posters are not happy when a jury decided this matter very quickly, not cops, a jury. Explain why a thread is started when a jury decided this case so easily. The DA even dismissed charges against the third.
They need a thread to express their hate is the only explanation I see. Now, you are directing your hate toward me. At the very least you should be able calmly and intelligently explain why.

Phillip Allen
01-14-2014, 05:41 PM
Is Phillip banned or something?

all I ever wanted was to get folks to talk about it... it is happening now

delecta
01-14-2014, 05:43 PM
I think Ian has a good point but most people don't go to work and think this could be the day. Cops think that every time they start a shift.

CWSmith
01-14-2014, 05:49 PM
Explain why the posters are not happy when a jury decided this matter very quickly, not cops, a jury. Explain why a thread is started when a jury decided this case so easily. The DA even dismissed charges against the third.
They need a thread to express their hate is the only explanation I see. Now, you are directing your hate toward me. At the very least you should be able calmly and intelligently explain why.

Your sweeping generalization of liberals is not accurate, but it is insulting. The thread long ago walked away from one incident and was discussing a general problem. Juries are often idiots and few prosecutors will go after a cop. Those are my answers. If you want to discuss why some people have inadequate sympathy for police officers, then raise that question. If you think that liberals rejoice when a cop is killed, then you are just a cartoon unworthy of attention.

Phillip Allen
01-14-2014, 05:51 PM
Your sweeping generalization of liberals is not accurate, but it is insulting. The thread long ago walked away from one incident and was discussing a general problem. Juries are often idiots and few prosecutors will go after a cop. Those are my answers. If you want to discuss why some people have inadequate sympathy for police officers, then raise that question. If you think that liberals rejoice when a cop is killed, then you are just a cartoon unworthy of attention.

agreed

Ian McColgin
01-14-2014, 05:54 PM
Reasonable people can disagree on this. The papers have copies of the video the jury saw. To me it appeared that the police used excessive force but anyone looking at it can understand why another looking at it would come to the opposite conclusion, depending on what they know of the physical side of mental health techniques and what they expect of purportedly trained peace officers. It can be very difficult and dangerous to control a person as troubled as Mr. Thomas was.

pefjr
01-14-2014, 07:02 PM
Your sweeping generalization of liberals is not accurate, but it is insulting. The thread long ago walked away from one incident and was discussing a general problem. Juries are often idiots and few prosecutors will go after a cop. Those are my answers. If you want to discuss why some people have inadequate sympathy for police officers, then raise that question. If you think that liberals rejoice when a cop is killed, then you are just a cartoon unworthy of attention.
My sweeping generalizations are insulting you? Really? You just insulted the integrity of every police officer, and every prosecutor, Mr. Cartoon. Thanks for confirming your position on that matter.

oznabrag
01-14-2014, 07:11 PM
I think Ian has a good point but most people don't go to work and think this could be the day. Cops think that every time they start a shift.
Oh, yes we do.

In fact, when I was painting water towers for a living, we held a meeting every morning to make sure everybody was properly respectful of the acceleration of gravity.

oznabrag
01-14-2014, 07:13 PM
My sweeping generalizations are insulting you? Really? You just insulted the integrity of every police officer, and every prosecutor, Mr. Cartoon. Thanks for confirming your position on that matter.
You spew hatred everywhere you go, lil' puppy. You shouldn't be surprised when folks don't like it.

Glen Longino
01-14-2014, 07:18 PM
You spew hatred everywhere you go, lil' puppy. You shouldn't be surprised when folks don't like it.

Well said, good Sir!!

CWSmith
01-14-2014, 07:26 PM
You just insulted the integrity of every police officer, and every prosecutor...

No, just some. Read it again with less exaggeration.

It tends to be a problem in large metropolitan areas where an us vs them culture can more easily evolve through anonymity.

pefjr
01-14-2014, 08:10 PM
No, just some. Oh,...some. I see. These in this post, because they were acquitted? Horrible miscarriage of justice, Ian says? I wonder if Ian had not posted this, if you would have any cares at all about it? Probably not one wannabe lib, or cheerleader would have cared at all, but because Ian said it was a 'Horrible miscarriage of justice', you have to defend it, and the cheerleaders have to cheer, and add their personal taint in ad homs and tales of untruths. As the bilge churns. One fact you cannot change here..... a jury acquitted the cops and the truth is you don't know enough about the case to call them idiots or to agree it's a 'horrible miscarriage of justice'. Ian didn't have enough, in fact he admits that a reasonable person may acquit. And they did, which means only one thing, they had a reasonable doubt. That is enough for me, and any reasonable person. But hold on, these are cops, something is wrong, how could this idiotic jury make such a decision , these guys must be guilty, they are cops. Or... the prosecutor is corrupt. I see your logic now.

CWSmith
01-14-2014, 08:13 PM
Oh,...some. I see. These in this post, because they were acquitted? Horrible miscarriage of justice, Ian says? I wonder if Ian had not posted this, if you would have any cares at all about it? Probably not one wannabe lib, or cheerleader would have cared at all, but because Ian said it was a 'Horrible miscarriage of justice', you have to defend it, and the cheerleaders have to cheer, and add their personal taint in ad homs and tales of untruths. As the bilge churns. One fact you cannot change here..... a jury acquitted the cops and the truth is you don't know enough about the case to call them idiots or to agree it's a 'horrible miscarriage of justice'. Ian didn't have enough, in fact he admits that a reasonable person may acquit. And they did, which means only one thing, they had a reasonable doubt. That is enough for me, and any reasonable person. But hold on, these are cops, something is wrong, how could this idiotic jury make such a decision , these guys must be guilty, they are cops. Or... the prosecutor is corrupt. I see your logic now.

You really like the sound of your own voice, Bud. I can't afford to give you more time tonight, so rant on.

htom
01-14-2014, 08:18 PM
They may not be idiots, but they didn't get off of jury duty. /snark.