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Gerarddm
01-13-2014, 11:39 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/13/opinion/malik-religious-freedom-secular-forum.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

Ian McColgin
01-13-2014, 11:54 AM
Sensible, sober, and well reasoned.

pefjr
01-13-2014, 12:04 PM
That is not Religious freedom. Until the women laugh at the fools, and sit where they want, nothing much will change.

TomF
01-13-2014, 06:52 PM
I've a Muslim acquaintance who has, in recent years, taken to wearing the hijab. She's in Edmonton, and we still correspond from time to time.

She says that in her hijab, she relates to men and women simply as a person. Not a person whose attractiveness or lack thereof mediates conversations, interactions, etc. She is (or at any rate, was) quite attractive - and was irritated at how that became the focus for many. Instead of relating to her as a person who is, really, just a person. Competent, or not. Thoughtful, or not. Intelligent, or not. For her, all of these fundamental aspects of relationship seemed secondary to appearance - and the hijab ruled it all out.

For a longish time, there's been a related argument in not-muslim countries about whether schoolchildren should wear uniforms. The pro-uniform people observe that when all dress alike, it strip away competition about the price or brand of your clothes. It forces more uniformity in one aspect of life, because doing so helps focus on what is actually more important in that context instead.

I'll not argue that all hijab wearers do so for the reason my friend does. Or that all private schools with uniforms wear *them* for the reason I noted. But some do - and when they do, it's a valid, meaningful, and often paradoxically progressive choice.

PeterSibley
01-13-2014, 07:01 PM
That is not Religious freedom. Until the women laugh at the fools, and sit where they want, nothing much will change.

I think you are talking about ME culture overlaid on Islam. Indonesia and Malaysia have entirely different versions of the same religion with far far freer interactions for women. BTW Indonesia is the largest Islamic country in the world.

pefjr
01-13-2014, 09:45 PM
I think you are talking about ME culture overlaid on Islam. Indonesia and Malaysia have entirely different versions of the same religion with far far freer interactions for women. BTW Indonesia is the largest Islamic country in the world.Not sure what you mean. What I am saying is that religious freedom applies inside the religious traditions also. The women of this particular cult must have the option to sit where they want. If they are told they can not sit there because of religious reasons
they can laugh at the ones doing the telling, and sit there anyway. If that is the case, it's in the UK, nothing will be done to these women. However if they do as they are told, as they always have, then nothing much will ever change. It's Tradition! a la Fiddler on the Roof. They can bring their religion into the UK, but they can not bring the unlawful traditions of that religion. There will be no beheadings for Blaspheme, no stoning for not averting your eyes, unless it was Hillary.